/vr/ - Retro Games

if you get the white tanooki suit and you go on /vr/ or even /v/, you probably should just go

the tanooki suit is made so they don't have to turn the entire game into something piss easy for people who don't know what they're doing

we should have more games directed towards people who know what their doing instead of just the lowest common demographic. then you can add things that the people who are new/bad can still enjoy it because it won't be too hard for them, where everyone else can just enjoy it the difficulty it is


they're perfect

I agree that recent games can hold your hand too much, but at the same time, I don't find a lot of fun in trying to overcome too difficult gaming challenges. Some retro games are hard and fair, and some just use artificial tricks to make it harder. I think the white tanooki suit is a compromise I can live with - it's there, but you never have to take it and it doesn't push it in your face. Like in Dream Team, there's a hint block that pops up if you die on a boss but it's never blatantly obvious, and I always skipped over it.

In any case, I think a somewhat-gentle arc of rising difficulty is best. Pointlessly difficult games don't have much of a point to me, but really easy games are dull.

>>1225781
I've felt this way since the moment they first showed off the "Super Guide" stuff, if anything it just discourages you from playing all together

Every time that pig popped up in Donkey Kong Country Returns I wanted to punch it

>>1225781

>youtube whores

Please leave /v/. We want to talk about games not personalities. Focusing on "gaming culture" is one reason why /v/ is garbage.

>>1225824
>what is reading
We're not talking about them per se, next time post this in one of the threads that is actually focusing on them.

>>1225828

All I saw is some ugly fucking idiot and a link to cinemassacre.

Saged. Reported. Hidden.

>>1225832
I can smell this dude's diaper through the router.

I hate when they show up but inderstand why they're there. After all, when I was young I would often screw around with cheats, god modes, etc. Sonic 3 I spent tons of time playing as super sonic (unlocked by my bro) and grinding lives/items in Mario World. Over time I found that beating games legit was more rewarding, and as I got older I got better and could clear more games. I understand why super modes exist in games nowadays, because I was there once. Kids who need it will use it, and if they really like video games then they'll grow to realize that it's better to not need them to finish the game. The only thing I'd like is to see a menu option to turn off all appearances of the help objects. I hate having them show up when I just want to play legitimately. Still, hats off to Ninty for making it a super item instead of just playing the game for you. The original super guide concept was disgusting.

>>1225781
>So then, what's your opinion on difficulty in vidya? How do you feel about today's tendency towards watering down and hand holding?
If there's no difficulty in a game then it's not a game, it's an interactive movie.

We live in the wahh artificial difficulty generation. Get used to this shit. Especially on Nintendo consoles.

What is even the point of playing the game at that point?

>>1225932
It's for small children. What grown adult is seriously going to use it?

I think a lot of people just underestimate other people. Because the option is there doesn't mean that kids these days will take it every time, or even worse die 5 times on purpose in order to take it (like that Mike is suggesting). They'll realize it takes the point of the game away, to the point where it even becomes an insult for that "white tanooki suit button" to show up like the game is telling you "You suck too much: here you go free win".

Okay, some might use the suit once because they can't beat that one stage but then will resume playing normally starting the next one.
They'll know they haven't FULLY beat the game, too.

Maybe some people will use the suit every time, and, if they like it that way because they just enjoy going through that colourful mario world and look at it; if it's their way to enjoy the game, then it's totally fine by me, as long as the developers don't force me, or others, to use that suit.

I don't see this to be that new. Think of GTA3. That was even worse. 99% of people who played that game were just casually playing with cheats to go fuck around the world. I don't see how this is any new.

I actually just watched that video last night and there is one statement mike made on there that I totally agree with. It was something along the lines of
"this everyone is a winner thing is bullshit, if you Beat a difficult game It gives you bragging rights."

Or some shit like that.

Any video game that lets you repeat progress until you win (which is to say, every game I know of) is, to me, guilty of hand-holding.

>>1226278

That's a silly viewpoint, but whatever. Ninja Gaiden isn't exactly holding your hand.

>>1226282

I don't think it's silly. Perhaps "hand-holding" isn't the appropriate term, but it does get tedious.

"You fought the boss and died? That's okay. Just try again until you get it right." Seems like this is veering from the original point. Maybe a discussion for another thread.

>>1226304
Oh, you're talking about continues, right?
For some games it's useful, but I don't think most really need it.

>>1225781
I strongly disagree, including super guides or invincibility items is a way to allow designers to make more challenging stages without alienating people who just want to play the game casually. If you look at games like Donkey Kong Country Returns, Super Mario Galaxy 2, and 3D World, they are a step above other modern Nintendo games in terms of difficulty and interesting level design.
If you're someone who really appreciates playing games for the challenge, then there's no way you'd use these items in the first place, so it's not ruining the game experience. The only thing I'd like to see, like >>1225860 said, is a way to turn them off completely in the menu.

>>1226246
>if you beat a difficult game It gives you bragging rights
If this is why you are playing games, you're doing it wrong.

>>1226246
>"this everyone is a winner thing is bullshit, if you Beat a difficult game It gives you bragging rights."

Although I love Mike and I agree with the above statement 100%, you don't have to get the suit.

Caring about how other people play video games is the lowest of the low.

I don't fucking care. If I recall correctly using the Tanooki suit doesn't make the level "completed", and you don't get to keep star coins. It just lets you progress. So 100% completion is still something only skilled players can do, but Nintendo gets to widen their audience by letting little kids see the entire game.

Honestly I'm surprised so many people are so fucking late on the draw because I thought we argued all about this way back when the Super Guide patent was first filed.

>>1225781

I agree with Mike. In the age of the internet, there is absolutely no need for the white tanooki suit. It could have just been a cheat code like the Konami code, giving the player 30 extra lives as in Contra. If a child complains about getting stuck in a game, it's a parent's obligation to help. Video games are not babysitters. It seems like Nintendo just wants kids to finish SM3DW as fast as possible so they can build hype for the next installment and repeat the process. Not letting consumers properly digest a game before building hype devalues the medium as a whole.

I'm jumping in logic here, but I believe this is one sign of another video game crash. Broken games flooding mobile devices, DLC for incomplete single-player games, absurdly high production costs, and slapdash yearly sequels are akin to the quick cash-in games of the late Atari era which led to great consumer distrust. This ultimately caused the American video game crash of 1984. Perhaps the cycle will repeat 30 years later.

I think it's pretty disappointing that these features exist. Even if a person thinks they need them, it truly takes away any feeling of accomplishment and progression and that's the entire purpose. I understand it's made for kids, but so was Super Mario Bros. I think difficulty settings are a more realistic solution. Allow for very easy difficulties where this sort of thing isn't needed and let people who want to play on hard mode do so. Kids aren't actually that bad at games. Seriously, having things like this makes it feel like even the hardest parts of the game will never truly be so hard after all. And you might be thinking,
>oh, but it's in the background, you don't HAVE to use it, it doesn't matter
But it does matter to some people for the same reason playing something on a console rather than an emulator feels more "real" and "legit" to some people. Just knowing that you have the option to take the easy route somehow decreases the value of the experience even if you don't. It's like being stuck in Africa with a plane ticket and an SUV full of sandwiches and bottled water but choosing not to use it vs just being stuck with nothing. Even if you promise yourself you won't touch it, it's still there and you're always going to know it's still there no matter what you do.
>but I have self control
>but I want options
That's not the point. The point is solely in its existence and there are other options that allow for an easy experience. To me there's no excuse to have this sort of feature.

>>1226454
If anything, the promise that players will all be able to finish the game regardless of skill level is just more incentive to make an actually good fully-featured game because it can't hide behind difficulty.

Think about how many NES games were short as fuck but just made up for it by being so hard you'd never see everything.

>>1226454
You are delusional.

>>1225932
>What is even the point of playing the game at that point?

I often wonder the same thing. The market is so oversaturated, nobody plays the same games anymore, so there is little common ground anymore. It's all a bunch of corporate shilling. Nobody has time to digest the games that are already out.

>>1226456
>It's like being stuck in Africa with a plane ticket and an SUV full of sandwiches and bottled water but choosing not to use it vs just being stuck with nothing. Even if you promise yourself you won't touch it, it's still there and you're always going to know it's still there no matter what you do.

I think this metaphor doesn't exactly fit the situation here.

>Implying stuff like the white tanooki suit is somehow worse than all the level-select codes that were present in these hard games your romanticize.

At least if you clear a level which the white Tanooki suit it's still marked as red with no collectables. In old games with a level select code it really was indistinguishable from having done it yourself.

>>1226456
>It's like being stuck in Africa with a plane ticket and an SUV full of sandwiches and bottled water but choosing not to use it vs just being stuck with nothing.
If I'm stuck in Africa of all places, of course I'm going to use those.
I get what you're trying to say, but that wasn't a good example.

They got rid of the artificial difficulty. Isn't that what you wanted?

>>1226246
It's been too long since I had a good reason to use this.
Thanks for being an idiot anon.

>>1226478
This is true. I read a quote here somewhat recently, about emulating and save states, it was something like this:
>The mere fact that they [save states] exist makes it unfun; knowing there is an easy way out defeats the purpose, even if you play legitimately.

This is kind of how I feel here: Even though it doesn't mark the level as cleared (contrary to using save states/level bypass cheats in older games), the mere fact that using the White Tanooki Suit is even possible slightly lessens the fun.

>>1226474
But it does because games are inherently about struggle and overcoming... something. It might be fighting off a bunch of aliens, getting enough money in Farmville to buy new equipment or picking the right relationship options to please your waifu in a dating game, but whatever the case, you're always making a conscious effort to accomplish something and/or overcome failure. That's literally where the fun and excitement comes from.

>>1226503
I should've worded it better. I meant deliberately going there with the intention of living that lifestyle just to experience a world unlike what we have elsewhere. It drastically reduces the experience of, "Oh shit, I actually have something to lose!" Of course video games are just a simulation of this to some degree.

You guys seriously are so tempted by the White Tanooki suit that just having the option of using it ruins the game for you? I can understand if it was something like Skyrim's fast travel where there is no downside to abusing it, but White Tanooki pretty much waves a flag saying "YOU KNOW IM LETTING YOU PASS BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO BEAT THIS LEVEL FOR REAL ALSO YOU'LL NEED THESE GREEN STARS FOR THE POST-CREDITS WORLD.

If you guys are so fucking casual that you can't resist pressing the big "skip level" button repeatedly maybe you should take a hard look at yourselves.

>>1226529
This. You guys are a bunch of babies.

>>1225781
It's optional, so I don't care. It's the first I ever heard of it and I just beat Bowser. If you even see the white tanooki suit block, you're a shit.

>>1226541
How many times do you have to die for it to show up? The most I've died on one level was 3 and it wasn't there.

>>1226548
5 I think.

>>1226246
>Beating a Mario Game
>Bragging rights

Maybe if it was the Lost Levels, but...

Bad thing about this white tanuki suit is that when super guide block appears for the first time you don't know what it is, you hit it, take what's inside, you see it's god mode cheat so you restart but... you took it once and now you can't get 100%
but you didn't know about the consequences beforehand

>>1225906
>Especially on Nintendo consoles.
games on nintendo platforms are still harder than The Last of Zombies or other American Soldier Walks and Shoots 10: Electric Boogaloo

>>1226589
Or just play the level again immediately after without the suit.

Maybe you guys should fucking play the games you complain about

>>1226589
>you took it once and now you can't get 100%
But that is false. You just have to beat the level without it.

>>1226594
>>1226597
stars on your save file won't be shiny if you took it

>>1226606
Actually the stars won't be shiny if you died enough for it to appear, regardless of whether or not you took it.

Mike is right about what he said, I am so sick of modern games thinking that people dont like to be challeneged at all. Good games have that addictive quality that bring you back after you just spend 30 minutes ragining at it. Thats the problem with this shitty self esteem entitled generation. Everybody gets a winners trophy just for participating and were too afraid of telling people they arent winners so far as to making most people into losers haha if that makes sense. The dumbasses our age 20-30 have all been told their entire lives they can do anything if they try, sometimes trying leads to failure and you are not a winner in that situation, you deserve to be commended for your effort (so you want to try again and to not feel discouraged) but to straight up lie and say all the losers are winners too just ruins it.

I'm glad they did this in a mario game though maybe the little delusional faggots will realize the series has been in a steady decline after mario 64.

I don't understand the problem. You don't HAVE to use it.

>>1226620

This is something I've noticed about gamers: They will bitch and moan about something being made easier even if they don't have to use it at all.

>>1226615
>That's the problem with this shitty self esteem entitled generation
You do realize adults 15 years ago said the exact same thing about you, right?
Talking about how you worked for your accomplishments "back in the days" while berating modern kids is nothing but nostalgic masturbation, always has been, and has always made you look dumber than the people you set out to insult.

I wish Mario games were made harder...

I hate the complete lack of challenge in all the newer games. I understand that they want the game to be accessable to everyone, but why not just make the game difficult to satisfy core gamers, and include an easy mode that gives you more power ups or something?

>>1226657
It's not like Mario games were ever that hard, and honestly they've been improving since they started adding the super guide / white tanooki features.

>>1226657

Because Mario games have never been hard. That's not their thing.

Even the Mario games that are "hard" only have a few parts that are truly challenging, The Lost Levels notwithstanding.

>>1226632
You don't realize I am speaking about my own generation, but yeah you probably are right the greatest generation probably said the same thing about the baby boomers. Still though games are too easy now it's insulting I got my own NES as a hand me down in 94 and mom bought me SMB3 and TMNT tournament fighters. I died lots I got game overs and to start all over again but I loved it, I always fell in the hole at 1-1 when I first got it but I never stopped trying, watching how good my cousins and the older kids were only served as further motivation. I didn't want to be helped through the game I wanted to beat games and not be a detriment when playing with my older cousins.

>>1226663
mario games were never hard to beat but the optional areas were a good challenge. Is there anything at all like the special zone in any game after world? The coins are kind of hard to get in some levels in NSMB wii but there is nothing as hard as Tubular in any of them. NSBM wii was good though I just don't see it ass good.

>>1226672
Galaxy 2, SM3DL and 3D World all have final gauntlet levels after you 100% them, and they're pretty challenging. Definitely harder than anything in other 3D Marios.

>>1226672
From what I understand, the new Mario games' post game content is challenging.

Also, Tubular isn't hard (play it now as an adult) and isn't even the worst part of the Special stages.

>>1226680
I never bothered with ur mr gay or the sequel my brother said they were good I forgot about them to be honest I was mostly thinking sunshine, nsmb and nsmb wii the last 2 being alright but too easy and sunshine I never bothered with because I didnt hear any raving reviews about it from friends or media.

>tfw casuals are the reason Funky Kong isn't playable

>>1226672
Mario 3D Land has an extra set of worlds, some get pretty challenging especially if you want to go for the no helper goal. The main game is more of a tutorial/practice for the real game.

>>1226672
>NSBM

So if the White Tanooki suit was a cheat code instead, that'd be fine right? Cause historically lots of games had an invincibility code. Hell, the main purpose of a Gameshark or Game Genie for many people was to get invincibility or unlimited anything in games that don't normally have that. So what's the big deal if they give it as an option to people who suck too bad?

Like it seems almost worthless to care about something like this. It's like complaining that disabled people get to park closer to doors. If they're so shit, let them if they want to. Like fuck.

>>1226752

Yeah that's something else about this shit we don't have to use. Back in the day, we had cheat codes and game genie/shark.

You can go "muh accomplishments" all you want, but fact remains, people took the easy way out on the NES, too.

>>1226752
Or make it something you have to earn your way up to, like Super Sonic. Have something equivalent to Star Road/Special with more challenging levels, and if you clear them you have the option to activate White Tanooki under certain circumstances (grabbing two leaves in a row, maybe?)

It's so trivial at this point, that I don't care. YouTube walkthroughs already exist; save states already exist. I'm not bad enough that I'd ever have to rely on it, and if the next generation grows up to be shitty at games, it benefits me.

>>1226461
He's not as delusional as you think.

The first crash was brought about by a glut of poor quality titles. The second crash will be brought about by a glut of average quality titles and me too clones flooding the market.

There are already so goddamned many games on mobile for .99 that mobile developers find it difficult to compete and are leaving the market. The only way we've avoided another crash so far is because the industry adopted Nintendo's strict price controls from the 80's and publishers stagger release dates and have the final say in what is and is not released.

But there are too many markets now and too many cats going in too many directions. How long is it going to be before publishers lose control of the monster that they've created.

If you're good enough to not see it it doesn't even matter.

If you're not you don't even have to use it.

What the fuck is so bad about it? This is the same shit that happened with the 2DS. People can't handle there being options they would never use. Holy shit.

>You have to have fun the same way people did in the 80's-90's or it's not actual fun.

Fuck off Mike.

>>1225781
I disagree.

My reasoning:
my girlfriend is absolute shit at this game and she is the fault of why we keep losing. She gets the suit and I don't. We don't lose anymore. We both have fun. But if you do love video games but don't like doing shit the normal way you just don't love video games

>>1226841
It isn't about the option being there or not: it's about the principle.

It just highlights this trend of simplifying difficulty in games, something that used to be a pretty core part of vidya's identity.

>>1226826
Not him.

Really? You think things could crash in a time like this? In my eyes, the industry is stronger than ever. I love retro games and nostalgia, but I think modern games are even better. Gaming has never been this mainstream. Sure, there are examples of bad games here and there, but those will be forgotten. What do you remember from the early to mid 2000s, the current Madden at the time or Okami, Wind Waker and Kingdom Hearts? We're already forgetting things that aren't even old and replacing our memories with the good stuff. But at the time, the charts would've led you to believe some of those bigger games were the best things out there. Not that the good games weren't big too, but you get what I'm saying.

What people also aren't remembering is that the old games we used to have... you know, the ones like Doom, Quake 3, UT, all those, they were just the CoDs of our time. Some groups of people hated those too, but now look what happened. Things change. Opinions change. People lighten up and say, "Maybe it wasn't so bad after all." People are already doing it with Halo and that series is still pumping out games to this day.

The market is competitive, sure, but that means crappier games tend to get swept under the rug. If you bought a game these days, the worst you'd get is probably a 3/10 or a 4/10. If you bought a game in the NES days, for example, there was probably a 25-50% chance the game would be dreadful. Like, 0-3/10. People just like to forget about that part. Meanwhile, as far as difficulty goes, we've got all sorts of relatively hard games all over the place. Try clearing Dark Souls in one go on your first time. People often just weren't quite as good at games back then as they are now. Many games often cited as hard (like Contra) are relatively normal in difficulty at best if you go back and try them now, even with no experience. And some of them are borderline easymode to a modern gamer with experience.

Not even trolling at all.

The simple truth is that video games AREN'T what they used to be. They are very mainstream now and target the mainstream audience. Even who can be defined as a gamer has changed.

Also, having grown up with games doesn't mean you can get by without having instructions shoved in your face. Egoraptor proved himself wrong when he started Game Grumps.

The point is, if you're looking for gratification for having played the game without the handholding, then play the fucking game normally. At the very least Super Mario 3D World gives you an option.

>>1226882
Most people who wish for a crash are idiots who don't actually know how the crash happened in the first place. And no matter how you feel about CoD, they're a lot better than some of the garbage you got leading up to the crash.

They also don't realize that what really happened was just a market shift.

I played games with a girl earlier today who knew absolutely nothing about games and it helped give me some perspective. She had to examine the controller to make sure she was pressing the right buttons every time. Solutions like this are patronizing but not entirely bad in concept. I wish there was an option in the menu where you could just turn it off altogether though because for anybody who isn't completely new to video games it's insulting.

Firstly there is a distinction between cheap difficulty and well though out difficulty. It has directly to do with what a games character is capable of and how the difficulties are presented. I unbiasedly feel the term "NES hard" came from games that simply were not capable of the depth of control and reactive options necessary to reasonably beat a level.

>lets make the character able to crouch
>it does fuck all the bullets still hit you in the face

The started to address this on the SNES and further systems though I feel PSX suffered from this on a small scale because of the inaccuracy of the 3d.

Today thats all gone and devs would much rather do less and make a game that appeals to every one. The term i use for a good game is one that is REACTIVE to what I do, not some vanilla backdrop

>>1226937
I think that's the best solution. I totally agree, they should just give an on/off option in the menu. I don't need an embarrassing reminder of how badly I suck.

You know what would make it more OK for me? If they still gave these options for casuals to waltz through everything, but they make fun of for it like the way a lot of Japanese games name their easier difficulty 'casual mode', or like how Viewtiful calls its initial two difficulties kids or adult difficulty. At least make them aware that their taking the cowards way out.

So, what happens if you fall down a hole with the White Tanooki suit?
Do you still die?

>>1227047
it has unlimited flying

>>1226632
>berating modern kids is nothing but nostalgic masturbation

I want you to say that the current generation growing up is just as good if not superior to the greatest generation.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Go suck a dick you goddamn retard.

>>1227087
The current generation growing up is superior to all previous generations.

How is this even a reasonable competition? Kids today have a hell of a lot more to work with than anyone in history ever has. They can still do anything people used to, and some of them do. Many of them can do it faster and better.

>>1227087

You didn't really prove him wrong and just made yourself look mad in the process.

>>1227109
Notable exception: Perhaps the people who built the pyramids were onto something, because we'd have a hard ass time doing that today with old technology.

But generally speaking, what I said is what I believe. I am not him.

>>1227109

Living off the backs of the earlier generations doesn't make them superior. They're still a bunch of lazy, dumb, whiny drones with no skills. They act like children despite being old enough to drink, they're incredibly self absorbed despite having nothing about themselves worthy of praise.

Some scrawny ass tool who's never worked a day in his life that complains about white privilege is totally superior to a man who busted his ass working in horrifying conditions to support his family during the depression. Uh-huh. Cool. Totally. You're a fucking moron.

>>1225791
Fucking this, my gaming skills have degraded to where I've seen that question block floating at the start. But instead of a crutch that I'd use to clear the level, I see it as motivation to continue moving on ahead and don't need it.

I don't know who that faggot is, but if his argument is that the white tanooki suit is ruining Super Mario bros or gaming, he's a few years late and pretentious as fuck.


Nintendo struck the right balance between helping people not rage quit while still keeping the challenge.

>>1227148

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and it's hilarious.

It's like you were lurking on /vr/ waiting to go on a silly and ill-informed rant because...well, because why exactly?

It's also not vidya games, so go stand on a soapbox where someone (read: no one) will care to listen to you.

>>1227148
Oh, you're one of those people.

It seems you've already made up your mind then. What's the point of even discussing it if you already know you're right and anyone who disagrees with you is "a fucking moron"?

I'm not a guy who generally says "games these days are too easy". My reason for that is that I figured games now *seem* easier because we're older, we have more dexterity, more patience and better problem solving skills. I can beat Ninja Gaiden pretty easily right now and I couldn't beat it when I was a kid. Is it because Ninja Gaiden has gotten easier? Of course not, I just got better at gaming.

This, however, is on a whole new level. It's like a big "fuck you" from Nintendo. "Oh you wanted some fun and a challenge? well fuck you, here's this instead". I'm afraid at this pace in a couple of years we'll see games with a big screen "Push A to win" and you'll be presentend with the credits. Totally shameful.

>>1227167
>Oh you wanted some fun and a challenge?

You're an idiot.

Here's a novel idea: If you want to be challenged, then *don't* use it. Shit, that was hard. Tomorrow we'll help you find out how to get something else for breakfast when you don't want to eat Cheerios.

>>1227178

I'm sorry. What incentive do I have to try hard? When there is a fucking "just win already" item there.

By that logic you could say about any game "well why don't you beat it with one hand if you want a challenge? You don't HAVE to use both hands you know?". Retard.

>>1227178
>Here's a novel idea: If you want to be challenged, then *don't* use it. Shit, that was hard

Here's the thing, a substantial amount of kids will use this shortcut when it is provided and when they lose patience.

I probably would have done it at 8 years old for a few games.

>>1227190
>What incentive do I have to try hard?

You said you wanted a challenge. Therefore YOU can avoid using the OP item. The incentive is in your own desires. Don't take the optional easy way out and then turn around and complain that it's there.

You're the retard here. It's like complaining Super Mario Bros. 3 is too short after you warped straight to world 8.

>>1227195
>Here's the thing, a substantial amount of kids will use this shortcut when it is provided and when they lose patience.

...so? What does this have to do with you and your personal gaming experience?

And that's a moot point, really. Kids got frustrated with games and put in cheat codes in the past. Why do you think the Konami code is so well-known? Because people sucked at Contra, and instead of getting gud, they decided to input a cheat code for some extra help.

>>1227198

It's not the same because in order to jump to world 8 on SMB3 you have to do something. In a sense, you have to be good at the game to collect the flutes. Having a shorter game experience is a reward for skill.

But this? It is a reward for being bad.

>1226420
It's not the reason I play games, just quoting the man.

>1226431
Nah, not really caring how they play the either. Just think about a generation of new gamers having their hands held through an otherwise skill building experience, but I suppose the same thing could be said about save states. sotn haha

>>1227210
>It's not the same because in order to jump to world 8 on SMB3 you have to do something.

You're missing the point of the example here. Both are optional things that the player can decide to take advantage of. In both examples, the player can opt NOT to use the item. It doesn't matter how you get the item. What matters is whether or not it's being forced on the player or not. And it's not in either example.

>>1227190
>What incentive do I have to try hard?
What incentive do you have to play video games at all?
You do it because you want to.

>>1227059

I've always thought the point of the flute in 8 was for replay value, if you wanted to go to another world quickly because the game had no save feature and was quite long.

>Using P-Wings and Clouds in Mario 3 is a-ok
>Dieing a ton and having an optional "level skip" just so you can get to a different stage is terrible

>>1228009
Those were hidden secrets though, and helped compensate for lack of a save feature in what was probably one of the longest platformers of its time next to Mega Man 3

They didn't just hand them to you if you died too much

>>1228774
>airships and patrollers are "hidden secrets"

>>1228774
You get tons of p-wings just playing the game.

>>1228880
You get them by playing well, not by dying too much.

>>1228902
Not really, you can get them from overworld hammer bros very easily.

I just ignore the block and proceed to die as many times as I need to pass the level, like a dignified person.

>>1228912
That's actually random, but you're guaranteed at least one per world.

I think the core difference between P-Wings and White Leafs is that there's a limited amount of P-Wings while you can be handed an White Leaf per level.

>>1228932
But you get them even if you're good. It's the same concept. If you want to actually play the levels, you just don't use them. The amount of them doesn't really matter.

>>1228938
It's the same concept but it's different in practice.

There's a flat limited amount of P-Wings.
You can't P-Wing every level no matter what unless you're using Game Genie.
There's potentially more than enough White Leaves.

I don't think anyone plays so bad that they need one per level, but either way it's different in practice

>>1228964
But the crux of the situation is that they're optional ways to make the level a breeze. P-Wings don't ruin Mario 3, and white tanooki leaves to don't ruin 3D World.

>>1228009
I think the difference between super guides and cheats/super items of the past is that they were earned, not received. You didn't unlock cheat codes in Goldeneye unless you beat their challenges. You didn't find the warp whistles without searching high and low for them. Old games made you earn these bonuses, new games give them to you for being bad. Old game rewards made you feel accomplishment, and the super guide stuff just makes you feel like shit. There's other problems with it, but this is the big one. It no longer rewards good players for their efforts. now it just coddles bad ones or mocks good players for making mistakes.

>>1228995
>It no longer rewards good players for their efforts.
But these games do, you unlock more content by collecting coins that you cannot keep with the suit.
Same with games like DKCR, you can't get the collectables while using the super guide.

>>1228995
The "cheats" in Goldeneye aren't really cheats as much as they are alternative game modes, since you can't progress with them and a lot of them are only there for every stage to have a time-trial while the reward (the cheat) would never be used.

As for the warp whistles, one is ridiculously easy to find and another is shown in the movie promoting the game.

And as others have said, if you're looking for feelings of accomplishment and challenge in the Dora the Explorer of gaming, you're looking way out in the wrong field.

>>1228964
indeed. You cannot rely on P-wings the whole way, because they are finite. You have to choose when you think you need them, and it's gone after use, no matter what.

White leaves are there forever, and simply appear whenever you lose enough times. There's no thought, and no purposeful decision to use it.

>>1229062

Goddamn you people are missing the point so hard.

The point is that the P-Wing is an item that makes things stupidly easy, but you don't have to use it. Ever.

That's the argument everyone is making about the suit. Yes, it's broken. Yes, it's easy mode. But you are not, under any circumstances whatsoever, required to use it. That's the entire point of the argument and it keeps going over your heads. I'm not sure if you're purposely ignoring the point or what. We know there are less P-wings. Everyone knows that. The point is that it's *optional*

And for you players who want your sense of accomplishment, the right to wag e-peens, or whatever...guess what? You still can! Because at no point are you required to use the item!

The only reason to get upset over this is because you can't handle that other people want to do things differently than you. And you shouldn't ever give a fuck about that, because the only thing that matters when you bring a game like Mario home is how much fun you (Yes, YOU, the person reading this post) are having with it.

>>1229117

I think there's a limit though.

I mean if every game offered an invincibility suit if you didn't want to play through it, I think that would be a problem. What if, in Zelda, they offered you 50 heart containers in the first room of the game, but you didnt HAVE to get them? It would still be incredibly ridiculous.

The point is that even KNOWING its there sort of ruins some sense of enjoyment. Its like in those mobile games, how knowing you can buy your way through the game leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

>>1229137

There is no limit. If you can ignore something, ignore it. Your inability to ignore optional game features is a problem with yourself, not the game.

>>1229137
>What if, in Zelda, they offered you 50 heart containers in the first room of the game, but you didnt HAVE to get them?
That's quite a hyperbole. These items only appear if you've died enough times on a specific level, and it's only one.
>The point is that even KNOWING its there sort of ruins some sense of enjoyment.
So P-Wings ruin some of your enjoyment of Mario 3? Because it's the same thing.

>>1229204
It's not the same stop trying to relate the two. You don't get gifted p-wings for dying too many times, in fact I'm pretty sure it sends you back to the beginning of the world and you have to beat the levels again.

>>1227109
That doesn't mean shit, if people actually got smarter we would have done away with government all together. Instead of people seeing it as a necessary evil in a society where people are coerced into paying their taxes, instead its gone the other way were people rely on the government for way too much. The government is not good and it will never be good, it has to use force to collect its earnings which is a necessity. Its not good that they have to do that but its a fact of life, instead society is full of morons that think the government was established to help your lazy ass out. Who cares if todays children are more tolerant, sure they say a lot of things and have the right ideas but they haven't done fuck all so you have nothing to prove their greatness, its all talk. Just because ethics and morals have improved doesn't mean its got better everywhere else as well. People are idiots despite all the knowledge they have access to, in fact I would say they are worse for not having substantially improved anything with their access to information. At least the baby boomers were too uniformed to know a lot of the shit they did back then wasn't good. There is no excuse today just ignorance.

>>1226882
>Modern games are even better.

name those games lol

>>1229327
>You don't get gifted p-wings for dying too many times

Missing
The
Point

This has been acknowledged multiple times. It's not the frequency of the item. It's the fact that you don't have to use it. This is all that matters. How many times must this be pointed out? Every time, someone dodges the acknowledgement and goes right back to arguing points that no one brought up.

>>1229327
>this rant

>Getting mad about how other people get through their vidya.
>Admitting it's about bragging rights.
>Bragging rights.
>Over a Mario game.
You people are ridiculous. Don't like it? Don't use it. I sure won't be, but you won't hear me gnashing and wailing about them including the option.

>>1229327
>>>/pol/

>>1229345
the fact is the p-wing is a bonus the white tanooki is not. What are you not getting, the point that you dont have to use it isn't there. The pwing is for you to fuck around because you did well, the white tanooki is just for shitty players.
So going by your retarded faget logic, how does a bad player take advantage of the pwing?

>>1229404
fuck off /pol/s a bunch of stupid nazis that are just against personal freedoms as much as everybody else. If society was any smarter those idiots wouldn't care about what faggots do in their own houses so much. /pol/ is where the weak willed go to find other morons so they don't feel so bad about their retarded beliefs.

>>1229450
>So going by your retarded faget logic, how does a bad player take advantage of the pwing?

By going into the menu and using one.

And my logic is not retarded. It's sound.

>>1229454
So where does he get all those pwings to show up in his menu? Being so shitty and all, how does this shitty player collect enough of them to get him through the game. Does he also have infinite stars so he can't loose his pwing like the white tanooki suit?

>>1229465
>So where does he get all those pwings to show up in his menu?

By finishing the first world. Mario games are not GnG

This is all besides the point, though. You (and no one else in this thread) has refuted the main point that's been argued this entire thread: it's optional.

>>1229468
The point is game breaking features are stupid despite being optional. The fact that they do that is pathetic.The fact the option to autowin the game exists is stupid. Pwings dont do that, and you can't even make an argument that they do.

ITT filthy fucking underage casual sympathizers

>>1229476
>people who don't agree with me are underage

Thanks for the laugh, chap.

>>1229479
the fact you are okay with game breaking options shows your a filthy casual and you want more casuals to start playing too.

>>1229504
This is ridiculous logic.

Not even him.

Do you think casual gamers form a rally and have a public agenda?

>>1229514
yeah their money dilutes my fun by watering it down. They control the markets, most games cater to their dollar. When gaming was a niche hobby for nerds it was a lot better. Any game ever produce enough quality content through mods that other games are ignored because people are still playing the original all modded out. Sure skyrim has lots of mods but none of them were ever groundbreaking like counterstrike, or team fortress. Those were games born out of fans love, everything now is so homogenous and just trying to rip the other guy off to earn a few more casual bucks. If the white tanooki was a cheat code like the contra code that would be okay because thats the purpose of cheats, but to have it as a normal gameplay implement is a joke. SMW3d world is going to spawn a ton of quality content just because its not that good.

>>1229542

The thing is though, the white tanooki suit only appeared whenever you died 5 times in a row on a certain stage and even then it was an option that you weren't forced into using.

SM3DL had the white tanooki suit and while it isn't my favorite Mario game, I'd still say that it's fairly solid and the difficulty didn't suffer because it (in fact, I'd say that the tanooki suit helped Nintendo to create harder levels without worrying about the games being too hard for younger players to complete).

All I can say is that the white tanooki suit is like the Konami Code, it was an easter egg that could be used in-game to make certain parts of the game easier without making the gameplay itself simpler to progress through.

I mean, I'd rather a game have an easy mode that I'm free to choose if I wanted to instead of a game where the entire game piss-easy and offers no form of challenge at all.

>>1225906

>artificial difficulty

>>1229554
I'd rather it have an easy mode thats optional not the default option. Like Megaman 2 was made easier for baka gaijin but you don't have to play the easy mode. You can't decide half way through its too hard and want to use the suit, it could even be covering up a flaw. Like there could be a really hard part because of poor level design but nobody is going to dump 2 hours into one are just to say why nintendo fucked that part up too.

>>1225809
Dream Team is a poor example though because the entire game was a fucking tutorial.

>>1229573

The tanooki suit is optional too.

You don't even see the damn thing unless you've died 5 times in a row on the same stage. Unless you're aware of it and purposefully killing yourself, you're unlikely to even be given the option unless you suck at a given level.

So what I understand, from your argument, is that "the tanooki suit is bullshit because it exists and I can't enjoy a single-player Mario game because other people are playing the game in a way that I personally disagree with."

Is there even a reason for this argument? Even if you argue the point that the tanooki suit makes future Mario games easier (somehow), I still don't really see how it makes SM3DW any less of a decent game worth a playthrough.

>>1229579

>the entire game was a fucking tutorial.

???

I'm sorry, can you please elaborate?

>>1229452
Having lurked /pol/ in recent days, it's easy to see they're not as monolithic as you think. Yeah there are nazis looking for other nazis, but that anti-government rant you spouted is not much different from various rants from the one thing everyone there seems to agree upon, be they left- or right-wing.

Yea even shiba talks how companies abandoned the core gamers and he's trying to bring it back with titles like drakengard 3. Games are by far not the quality of psx, n64, saturn, dc or snes gen days

>>1229053
DKCR was the only time I ever almost felt tempted to use a Super Guide, because holy shit did Retro fuck up the Mine Carts. One hit instant kills and awful jump physics

I don't get it.
He admits that he can just ignore it and continue on.
But the presence of a completely optional item still ruins the experience for him?
I don't get how this would ruin "bragging rights" or anything like that, instead of it being "I beat the game" it'd turn into "I beat the game without the white tanuki suit"

Maybe it's fun for other people to use the item, and if it's fun for you to ignore it then ignore it. Hard concept I know.

Cop-out features depend on the game and implementation. They typically work fine in games where each individual stage is its own challenge, and where it's expected that there might be one or two that are a problem. Elastomania is a good example of this, and one that does it well by having a limit, and putting a big ugly "SKIPPED" over the name until you complete it.

>>1229779
I almost did the same for two of the Rhythm Heaven DS games. Glad they ditched the gimmick controls in the sequel.

Did you know that Arkham City on the Wii U has this exclusive in-game feature called B.A.T. Power? It more-or-less works like a Limit Breaker: after giving and taking a certain amount of damage, you can activate this thing in the middle of a fight to deal more damage to enemies. In other words, you can bust this out when the enemy swarm gets to be too much and it makes things easier.

Nintendo was already planning the Wii U to be a console for children. People should stop acting so surprised.

>>1229812
It all boils down to
>if you're not having fun exactly the same way I did it's wrong

>>1229591
Not him, but the game constantly treats you like an idiot and always tells you exactly what to do.

Sage because this isn't retro.

>>1229993

I can kinda see what you mean but I wouldn't go as far as saying that the entire game is a tutorial.

Yeah, it's annoying having shit explained to you a thousand times but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad game.

If you ever watch a kid today play try and play through a Mario game and find a level he's particularly bad at, you'll see that after using up all his lives and getting a game over he'll get bored and move on to something else. Maybe back in the day when all videogames were tough and much more expensive, he would have stuck with it, but today there isn't much incentive to keep casual gamers invested in a difficult title. Mike may be talking about how he wants games to be about bragging rights, but very few games do that now. Instead today we have achievements or grading systems. It felt good to tell my friends that I finished Dark Souls, but it felt better when I told them I got every achievement/trophy. There are better ways to make someone feel accomplished in a video game without cutting off the demographic. Maybe a complete invincibility powerup wasn't the best option, but it's not a terribly bad one either.

>>1230639

I forgot to mention that many games like Contra and Doom would essentially give you invincibility, and people were okay with it because it was called a "cheat".

Most games offer some kind of challenge for the "hardcore" crowd.

For example, people shat on Super Mario 3D Land for being piss easy. But after you beat the normal stages, you had special stages that were much more challenging. And games like Bayonetta, The Wondergul 101, and Metal Gear Rising are pretty easy to brute force your way through. Even on Normal.

Some games do tend to hold your hand a bit. But developers have to make games under the assumption that the person has never played games before. Granted, some games go total overboard with tutorials, but not many.

And yeah, the number of games that cater specifically to the "hardcore" crowd are pretty small in number. That's to be expected. WIth any hobby, the number of people that only have a mild interest outnumber the people that are super into it.

We've always been worried about super casual games completely taking over, but it hasn't happened, and it won't ever happen. There will always be games that wil appeal to huge video game nerds that want difficulty.

I love really challenging games, but not every game needs to be that. Sometimes I just want to play something where I can just relax and chill. And they still manage to be fun. If your only way of having fun is extremely challenging games that punish you for the slightest error, maybe you should give video games a break for awhile.

>>1225781
With the same argument I can say that contra and every other konami game where the code works are shit.

There was not a single valid point in his reasoning.