/vr/ - Retro Games

Well, yeah. Using save states is generally cheating. Doesn't make it not okay though, use them if you feel like you need to. Ultimately the distinction is only important in as much as the satisfaction you stand to gain knowing that you have beaten a game on the terms by which it was originally presented. If that satisfaction is super important to you then don't use the states. Or do, and don't worry about it or whatever.

I think save states aren't cheating in even the slightest if it means just saving after some long grueling trek across a level, and reloading before an end boss defeat.

It's pretty much what i did for all the NES Mega Man games.

Yes, save states are cheating. You're obviously free to decide on your own whether or not to cheat.

I beat the game with a friend about a month ago, playing it for the first time. Considering you can save after any stage by getting the KONG letters I don't see why you'd need save states at all. Some stages are certainly full of bullshit, and the controls and physics are horrendous, but if I had save stated my way through the game it wouldn't have felt as satisfying reaching the end and being able to close the chapter for good on this piece of garbage.

>>1222523

Yeah it's usually cheating, but what the hell do you care? Play to have fun.

The only time I use save states are

>Games with stupidly long passwords
>After cutscenes (if a battle is about to start, for example)
>Long stretches of game that are there for no reason other than to pad time

It's always cheating, unless you're using it to save progress before you quit for a while and you plan to come back later, a way to save in lieu of a shitty save/password system, or the emulation (or just the game itself) is unstable and could crash at any moment for seemingly no reason.
This is true even if the game is complete shit.
If you could emulate Sonic 06, and you placed a save at the start of a mach speed section so you didn't have to replay 20 minutes of poorly designed level just to get there again, that would be cheating. If you beat Sonic 06, you wouldn't really have beaten Sonic 06. You wouldn't have had to go through all the bullshit all the people who REALLY played the REAL Sonic 06 did. You'd have played something else entirely.
I don't care if you cheat. I cheat my way through games I don't respect or enjoy enough to learn how to play well all the time. It only really matters as far as you care about it. Just don't ever vocally be proud about abusing tools and beating some game.

Honestly, the only reason to play Donkey Kong Land is for the few really good original music pieces. But if you're going for it, don't state your way through.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4bah17Dtsk

>>1222704
I hear that and raise you this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ7y9viMgyI

>>1222707
The game really had disproportionately good music considering the complete trash filling up the rest of the cartridge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5wihueECGc

>>1222715
I used to love it as a kid, I guess I never got far enough to see the literally unfinished level graphics

its cheating but i find some games to be more fun with them and speedup too. speedups turned some games from slogs into entertaining jaunts for me

Its pretty fugin hard man, i think it would be ok. Do whatever you want

>>1222720
If I had the game as a kid I'd probably have loved it as well, we were really good at looking past problems in most games back then. I always looked at the game in stores and was very fascinated by the flying pig on the cover, but didn't have a Game Boy back then and only played it for the first time earlier this year.

Did you play Land 2 and/or 3? Do they have different levels as well, or are they more closely modeled after the console releases?

>>1222720
Same here. I loved the game as a kid. I 101%'d it 3 or 4 times.

>>1222715
>>1222720
Wait, shitting on Donkey Kong land is a thing now?

I picked up 1 and 2 a few months back and loved the shit out of the 1st Donkey Kong Land. It's a really good GB title, what the shit?

>>1222772

they're mediocre at best?

>>1222779
Mediocre at best?
They're great platformers and solid GameBoy titles.

Save states =/= save-scumming

>>1222772
>It's a really good GB title, what the shit?
The controls and physics are objectively terrible compared to the console counterparts, the game plays about as well as the average Chinese pirate production. Rare's 3D model graphics don't work very well when scaled down to the tiny BW screen, making it much harder than it should be spotting the difference between foreground and background objects. Additionally, the level designs are largely uninspired and very poorly executed considering the resolution the game runs at.

>>1222815
>compared to the console counterparts
I've barely played DKC, never been that heavily into the series, but I'm glad I own DKL on the Gameboy, it controls fine and is a solid game.
You're in the minority if you think that it's comparable to a low budget knock off production.

>>1222815

>>1222832
If you barely played any of the DKC series you don't really seem qualified to make any statements about the quality of the handheld spinoff. Maybe if you only played the Game Boy games you'd be fine with the engine being half-assedly remade so that for instance jumping cancels all momentum, or hitting a solid surface while jumping slams you straight downwards regardless of angle and speed, but it really feels like shit controlling DK in that game when you're used to the predictable, functional physics and tight controls of the proper series entry.

I'm happy that you were able to see past the layers of shit and enjoy the game for what it is, because that is all I wanted when picking it up. I do however believe that it is in fact you who are uttering the minority opinion here, and the statistics posted by >>1222839 (to argue against me?) seem to prove it. The magazine reviews are giving it glowing scores, sure, but by now you surely know of the integrity of video game journalists and how Nintendo ran the review process of the DK games? The user score underneath paints a much more realistic image of the game's true reception.

>>1222715
The boss music is so fucking catchy. Better than DKC's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDoDZxoQvfM

>>1222863
3.8 out of 5 doesn't seem bad.

Not either of the people you were arguing with, but I enjoyed the first one. Of course it's not going to be as tight as the SNES equivalent, but I think it did a good job for a Gameboy port of an SNES platformer.

>>1222874
>5
>Really?
>Scores above it clearly go to 10

>>1222880
Some of them go to 100.

>>1222874
If it was out of five that would be a pretty good score, yeah, but I read it as 3.8/10. That would be an appropriate score in my opinion. Might very well be out of 5 though.

The later DKL installments seemed much improved in the physics department from what little I tested them, so maybe I could handle those. I've yet to find out if they have new levels in them, though, won't bother if it's just inferior ports of the console games.

>>1222869
Can't say I agree with it being better, but it's a good tune. It seems a bit too happy for a boss fight, although the tempo is nice. I really love the rendition of Crocodile Cacophony from DKL2, maybe even more than the original:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEpHWfqyHfs

>>1222839
User score of 209 votes is 3.8 out of 5

>>1222863
>The magazine reviews are giving it glowing scores
>the integrity of video game journalists and how Nintendo ran the review process of the DK games

Not just magazines, various websites and independent reviewers and not a bad one amidst them.
I'm rating this game on its own merits as a standalone release title on a handheld gaming device. And it stands up quite well. You're just shooting it down with your unrealistic comparisons to a SNES game.

>>1222884
>inferior ports of the console game
Incorrect, that would be like saying Sonic on the GG is a port of the 16 bit sonic, which it isn't. They are a modification of a console game with new levels designed with the hardware in mind.
I've played and completed DKL, I know the game. You sound like you've spent a whole minute playing it then discounted it because it didn't live up to your unrealistic 16 bit expectations of being the same game as its SNES older brother.

I use savestates to make checkpoints. Usually between stages.

>>1222910
>Not just magazines, various websites and independent reviewers and not a bad one amidst them.
Hard to say when you didn't provide your source.

>I'm rating this game on its own merits as a standalone release title on a handheld gaming device. And it stands up quite well. You're just shooting it down with your unrealistic comparisons to a SNES game.
I'm shooting it down because it's very poorly adapted for the format and the physics are shit, among other things.

>that would be like saying Sonic on the GG is a port of the 16 bit sonic
Never played that, so it would be hard for me to say.

>They are a modification of a console game with new levels designed with the hardware in mind
Considering games were written in assembly back in those days I'd imagine the GB games ran on a rewritten engine intended to mimic the console one. I know DKL was a different game from DKC with new levels, if the same is true for DKL2 and 3 with all new stages I have been trying to ask in this thread for a while now.

>You sound like you've spent a whole minute playing it then discounted it because it didn't live up to your unrealistic 16 bit expectations
It definitely didn't live up to my expectations, no, but I played it for hours over a few weekends before finally getting all the way to the end earlier this year. Did I have to get 100% on my save file before you'll allow me to have an opinion?

I seem to remember briefly testing DKL2 for a minute or so, finding the physics improved and controls more responsive, so they might've been able to fix their engine after the first one was out the door.

>>1222815
>the game plays about as well as the average Chinese pirate production
This pretty much sums up my thoughts. It also looks about as good, too.

I remember thinking they were so much weaker than the SNES versions. Major disappointment. Even accounting for the downgrade in hardware, they just looked and played horribly. They do deserve somewhere around a 3.8 out of 10 even though it was out of 5. In trying to make a straight port rather than thinking about what would work on a GB/C, they ruined it. And even worse, it wasn't a straight port. It was a butchered version. So we ended up with the mediocre version of an already bad idea.

Playing it on an emulator with a PS3 controller wouldn't be so bad, but that's because you have a big screen to see things clearly and a nice controller. Actually dealing with it on a Gameboy with that crappy little green tinted black and white screen is the real problem.

>>1223062
>if the same is true for DKL2 and 3 with all new stages I have been trying to ask in this thread for a while now.

Yes, the Donkey Kong Land games have different levels to their 16 bit Country brethren. I don't have the 3rd game but I presume it's the same case as the first 2.

>>1223816
Playing it on a gameboy advance is handy because it adds some colour to the moving sprites making it easy to differentiate things from the background. I don't think you can emulate that though.

>>1224553
>I don't think you can emulate that though.
You absolutely can.
Hell, you can even define your own palette for the background and sprites.

>>1224896
Oh yeah, I haven't emulated GB in ages so I forgot that you could mess with the palette and throw in your own colours n shit. In fact I shall give it a try now...

I usually use save states just to have a series of points I can go back to at any point if I want to replay a particular level/boss/moment/whatever.
I don't know why, but a game just doesn't feel complete unless it's completely accessible in every way

>>1224926
I would think most emulators support it, but only know for certain that Gambatte does when used within RetroArch. Turning on colors halfway through made such a huge improvement in being able to see at all what was going on in the screen.

By the way, there was a GBC version of DKL3 released but only in Japan. I think someone over at DKC Atlas may have taped together a translation patch for those who don't speak Jap.

>>1224981
>By the way, there was a GBC version of DKL3 released but only in Japan. I think someone over at DKC Atlas may have taped together a translation patch for those who don't speak Jap.

I was posting from my phone at work earlier so I couldn't look up the link, but here's Blaziken257's DKL3 translation patch if anyone was interested: http://www.mediafire.com/file/nnqhqiq76tmz7n3/DKL3J_-_English_v1.1.zip
Release thread: http://www.dkc-atlas.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1669

Should be a much better experience than the monochrome original game.

>>1224957
Heh I tend to do that too. Like for example when in a game where for a short moment you get to play as another character, I like to keep a save of when you start as that character, in case I feel like playing as him again (because it's a cool and short and unique moment in the game).

Turns out that I NEVER use those kept saves though. But it's there if I ever feel like it...

I wouldn't call it cheating per se, the problem is you'll never get any better at videogames if you save state.

It's why I bought actual consoles, I just wanted to improve, that's all. To each their own, I guess.

>>1225372
Getting good at video games isn't very important anyway, as long as one is being entertained by consuming their entertainment media. The problem with excessive save stating is rather that it removes challenge (fun) from games.

Having to spend money to keep yourself from using save states says a lot about your lack of self control and bad priorities, maybe you take a moment to reconsider how you go about your hobby.

>>1225390
>Getting good at video games isn't very important anyway
>The problem with excessive save stating is rather that it removes challenge (fun) from games
You don't seem to understand that in many cases those two things are directly related.
The fun comes from improving as a player and overcoming challenging obstacles you wouldn't have been able to before. There's a sense of progression and satisfaction that just is not there if you abuse save states.
That's why it often isn't fun.

>Having to spend money to keep yourself from using save states says a lot about your lack of self control and bad priorities
Consider the possibility that just knowing the option is available cheapens the whole experience for him.
Even if he's never used a save state in his life, the thought that there is an easy way out that he could be taking could detract from things. Isn't it more satisfying knowing that the only way you could possibly win is to get better at the game?

>>1225505
>You don't seem to understand that in many cases those two things are directly related.
Yeah, you're right. I was mostly being cheeky

>Consider the possibility that just knowing the option is available cheapens the whole experience for him.
That is the exact thing I have a problem with. If you're playing on a system where save states are an option and choose not to use them, they might as well not be there. I don't see how it could "cheapen the experience" at all, unless you have so bad impulse control that you can't keep your resolve when put under stress.

Lots of games have cheat codes that make it easier to progress, level skip codes that let you completely bypass difficult sections you're struggling with, and then of course there are Gamesharks and whatnot which will let you modify any part of the memory and cheat like crazy. Does knowing about the existence of these things detract from the game experience, poisoning your mind with a notion that you could cheat your way through instead of trying harder?

Even if it's a matter of weak impulse control, you could take away save state keymappings. If you're further gone than that, a real save state junkie, what about setting the save states path to /dev/null? Wouldn't help much trying to load from there.

Honestly though, if you feel that your experience is being lessened because you know that it's possible to cheat, you're a weak person. At what point in life is it ever not possible to cheat?

>>1225808
>level skip codes that let you completely bypass difficult sections you're struggling with, and then of course there are Gamesharks and whatnot which will let you modify any part of the memory and cheat like crazy
Those things are different. You have to go to some length to make things easier for you in these cases (buy a gameshark, look up and input the codes, etc.), and usually it's not something you can just do in the middle of gameplay when something slightly annoys you.
With save states you just have to hit one or two keys whenever you want. It's nothing to do with impulse, it's just the accessibility of it, and the way it is built in to emulators in a way that it almost feels like a part of the games, sort of like quick saves in some PC games.
It'd be like if the Super Nintendo controller had a button that turned on invincibility whenever you wanted. Sure, you could never press it. Sure, you could go through the effort of removing or disabling the button somehow. But the option was available, and right at your fingertips, and presented in a way that makes it seem legitimate, and that ruins it a little bit.

>At what point in life is it ever not possible to cheat?
There's usually consequences in real life for getting caught cheating. Cheating usually has risk, and often takes some effort to do.
The retro video game police aren't going to show up if you resort to save scumming to beat Vectorman. No one cares. It's not comparable.

>>1225505
>Consider the possibility that just knowing the option is available cheapens the whole experience for him.

How?

>Isn't it more satisfying knowing that the only way you could possibly win is to get better at the game?

What I find satisfying is the fact that I COULD HAVE cheated and DIDN'T. Doing something the hard way has no meaning if there never was an easy way to compare it to. That's what makes self-imposed challenges such as speed runs so much fun. Challenging yourself to beat Super Metroid in under 2 hours is fun. If, on the other hand, Super Metroid gave you an immediate game over and deleted your save if you took longer than 2 hours, that would be shitty game design.

I personally love having an easily accessible I Win button because it adds an additional form of challenge--now in addition to testing my reflexes and puzzle solving, the game is also testing my real-world willpower. It says a lot about so-called "hardcore" gamers that they can't handle that.

>>1225916
>How?
In the ways described previously. Try reading.

>Doing something the hard way has no meaning if there never was an easy way to compare it to
Nope. Can't agree with this at all.
The only way being the hard way is satisfying because when you beat the game, you know you are one of the few people who was able to reach the ending. It wasn't something anyone could do with no effort.

Imagine you climb a mountain, and when you reach the top, you see a bunch of people who took the stairs standing around. Sure, you just climbed a mountain. Sure, you just did something most people can't. But these other people can say they've been to the top of the mountain the same as you, so you can't really feel as good about it.
That's just how it is, no matter how superficial the distinction seems to you.

Speed running? The appeal is entirely in the competitive nature of it. It's got nothing to do with there being an easier, slower, alternative.
This ties in with what I just finished saying. Knowing that you're one of the fastest players in the world feels good because it isn't something just anyone can claim.

Hell, this feeling is what arcades run on. That's why most arcade games have high scores. It keep people coming back and putting in quarters because they want to be the best. It's why some games don't let people who credit feed see the last level or boss or true ending. It's why people want leaderboards in basically anything possible.
This shit matters to people.