/vr/ - Retro Games

>>1188427
>DaS is actually good

FF7 and Ocarina of Time are overrated.

>>1188427
Because DOOM deserves it's popularity.

>>1188427
>people's opinions are wrong
The simplicity and the sheer amount of mods is what makes Doom good.
If you want stealth there's a mod for that.

>>1188427

>>1188438
>Mods make a game good

Skyrim must be the greatest game this generation for the same reason.

>>1188438

Not OP, but saying the game is good because of its mods seems like a copout. It doesn't really address the quality of the original product. Praising the separate mods as their own entities is valid but then lassoing the various mods under the same banner of the original game seems like cheating.

>>1188427
You can't decry people for calling FFVII overrated and then turn around and use ridiculous hyperbole like calling fucking Doom "casual-as-fuck." That just doesn't work. Sorry, but your argument doesn't hold water.

>>1188438
>mods is what makes Doom good
>not the game itself

FF7 did not codify an entire genre to the point where JRPGs were called "Final Fantasy 7 clones".

Doom is one of those games that makes it into the group of - as much as I hate to say this - the "Citizen Kanes of gaming". Because at the end of the day, Doom radically changed the landscape of gaming by defining an entire new genre. While Wolf3D was first, it was not the game that became the blueprint for the first person shooter.

Grand Theft Auto, Doom, Wizardry/The Bard's Tale, Rogue. Games like this can't really be overrated because they had such a monumental impact on gaming.

FF7, on the other hand, was simply very popular. Not that it's bad (personally, I'd say FF7 can go suck a dick, but I can at least recognize that there's something good there I simply can't get behind), but beyond spawning a fuckton of fanworks that end up embarrassing more people than people that are happy about them and creating some painful spinoffs, it didn't have any lasting impact that wasn't based on it simply having a ton of space available.

And I don't even like Doom all that much (I personally prefer Wolf3D).

>>1188452
How is it not "casual-as-fuck"? It's easy and everyone had played it.
Keep in mind that casual does not mean bad.

>>1188427
DaS is also about killing everything that moves OP ;^)

>>1188456
And what about Ocarina of Time?

>>1188461
It's not a Facebook game, and no, it's not easy as fuck

Just because you've played through it 9 million times or whatever doesn't mean everyone has

>>1188470

Ocarina is a bit of an iffy case. I can't argue pro or con that one, which is why I abstain from commenting when it comes to that one. While it did to a degree codify the generic 3D action adventure of the time, I can't really believe it had the same impact Doom had - as far as defining an entire genre for years to come, that is. I've never heard of an "Ocarina of Time clone", to put it simply.

>>1188445
I'm not saying the core experience is lacking in any way. But the game never ends because there's always a new wad to try out
>extensive arsails

>>1188479

Innovation can't always be so rigidly defined as whether or not a new genre was created. OoT built off of SM64's innovations into 3D gameplay by paving the way with the Z-targeting system for any game that required more than environment navigation in a 3D world. It also influenced action adventure games to various extents years after its release.

FF7 had some undeniable influence on future jrpg's as well. It didn't transform the genre but its focus on cinematic rail-roaded gameplay and its general art style has influenced modern rpg's on consoles to this day including the FF series itself as well. I don't even like FF7 very much but its hard to deny this.

>>1188482

That validates Doom as a product with replay value but it still does not really address the quality of the originating game itself.

I don't like when people have to let everyone know how kvlt they are for not liking popular games, either, OP. You have a right to talk about OoT and FF7 and Earthbound as much as the Doom guys have a right to talk Doom.

That said, just about everything you said about Doom was wrong. I'll let you have the "poorly-aged graphics," because that's subjective, and it is a really low-res 2.5D game. I don't agree with you, but I can't say you're objectively wrong there.

About simple gunplay/easy dodging. There are 9 different guns, and with the exception of the pistol, they are all your best option a one time or another. Yes, even the fists. Also, the enemy PROJECTILES have travel time, but the enemy HITSCANS are instant. I.e. bullets hit you if they're pointed at you, but you can dodge FIREBALLS, which move twice as quickly on the highest difficulty. A room full of perched machine gunners will push your shit in.

The enemies do have their own unique set of attacks. You can't handle revenants in the same way as archviles or mancubi or pain elementals, etc. How you can fight your enemies depends largely on what type they are, how many there are, and how much space you have to move around in. Sometimes you get cramped into a narrow hallway with a baron on either side of you, and all you have is a shotgun; show me an untrained monkey who gets that right the first time.

There isn't much in the way of stealth, but enemies don't know you're there until you either walk in front of them or fire a gun nearby. This can be used to avoid danger and, more interestingly, to provoke infighting and get monsters to help you thin their own numbers.

>>1188505
/thread

>>1188503

It's less about "innovation or not innovation" and more the measure of innovation.

Codifying an entire genre is a lot more than simply expanding on an existing genre by adding a few things in particular onto it.

For instance, I would probably say that SM64 was the real innovator that codified the 3D platformer genre, from which OOT then went on to make somewhat of a simple offshoot, which, while well executed, didn't really do as much.

As for FF7, I'm not really sure I'd call what it did real innovation - it seems more to be a natural progression of the genre created further back that caught on a lot because of its popularity.

Meanwhile, with Doom, all you have before it is Wolf3D, and it didn't successfully define something the way SM64 did.

I thoroughly enjoy OoT, FF7 and Doom, and they're all fantastic games which define their genres... But I do think it's sort of unfair how those first two get shit on while Doom gets a free pass.

That said: by the time I came online in early-1999, pretty much everything that could be said about OoT and FF7 had been said ad nauseam, while Doom is extremely moddable and has a thriving online community. There's always going to be new stuff to talk about in the community. And I hate to throw around the word "hipster", but some people like to be contrary and hate things because they're popular. Doom was (and sitll is) very popular, yes, but OoT and FF7 more than eclipse it and are regularly considered by the mainstream as two of the VERY best games (especially with OoT) of not only their genre and eras, but of all time.

Report, ignore, and hide.

>>1188427
>taking the word overrated seriously
>not liking both games
Sounds like you are angered that your favorite game was criticized by someone

>>1188534

>For instance, I would probably say that SM64 was the real innovator that codified the 3D platformer genre, from which OOT then went on to make somewhat of a simple offshoot, which, while well executed, didn't really do as much.

But I wasn't really using OoT as an example of it influencing a single genre(except for the aside I said about it influencing some adventure games) I was talking about how it advanced all of 3D gaming in general. Super Mario 64 wasn't just an advancement for 3D platforming it was an advancement for 3D gaming with its implementation of camera control. But even then there was still things which needed to be addressed which OoT did, such as a mechanic for keeping the camera focused on a single object or thing which SM64 didn't have to worry about because you only had to worry about environment navigation. Z-targeting became the default for any 3D game which involved 3rd person action or any sort nuanced 3D interaction(as time went on the mechanics of Z-targeting became more automatic as future games would just have the camera focus on objects or enemies based on context without needing a button for it). Nothing exemplified the difference more than when I got around to playing MediEvil after I had already played OoT, which prominently features 3rd person melee combat. Without a means of focusing the camera on any one enemy or thing the game became an exercise in frustration as the simple task of consistently facing the same direction as the enemy would sometimes become a herculean task.

And yeah FF7 didn't really innovate anything, I was really just pointing out how even games which didn't seem to do much at a glance still had influence over later games.

Doom is great because babies can't play it, requires way too much precision on their part and they can't twitch like I can twitch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNz9upwgw7M

>>1188427
Seek help, i mean who really gives a shit if something is overrated, it's all in your mind

>>1188568
I think babies can't play most, if not all video games.

>>1188578

I think he meant 'babies' in the same sense childen do when they call each other 'kid' to indicate their maturity over the other person even though in reality it does the exact opposite.

>>1188586
It has nothing to do with that kind of maturity though, they haven't reached physical maturity to have the reflexes to play doom so they just call it bad.

>>1188557
>Doom was (and sitll is) very popular, yes, but OoT and FF7 more than eclipse it and are regularly considered by the mainstream as two of the VERY best games (especially with OoT) of not only their genre and eras, but of all time.

I REALLY hate to be that guy, but the "mainstream" that "regularly considers" Zelda and Final Fantasy to be the pinnacle of gaming probably started gaming on those games' respective consoles and also probably didn't play PC games before Steam/Pirate Bay existed. I don't think I ever met anyone who openly shit on Doom until the last eight years or so. I'm not saying they're bad games or that you have to be a kid/computer illiterate to like them; I'm just saying that most of the people who would call OoT or FF7 "the greatest game of all time" probably weren't playing Doom and laying the groundwork for later nostalgia when it was contemporary.

>>1188563

Right, seems I misread that. However, the thing with Z-Targeting in OOT is that it's essentially "the one thing it did right", to put it completely flippantly.

Essentially, it's a simple idea, executed to the point where it becomes the norm simply by virtue of being the first. It doesn't take a genius to look at a 3D environment with a lot of combat and say "right, I need something to focus on an enemy in particular, otherwise, the whole thing becomes a clusterfuck". To once again put it flippantly, Z-Targeting was an experiment that worked out, and then everybody figured "right, that's the way to do it then".

I'm not sure how I can make this sound like I'm not arguing this simply for the sake of arguing this, and that's probably because I probably am, but in the end, while it was a great thing for 3D gaming in general, it was only one part of the big picture, whereas in genre-codifying games like Wizardry, Rogue or Doom, there's an entire palette of innovations or new design ideas that set them above the games that bring some new and interesting ideas to the table.

I'll try to put it this way - the original premise is that if FF7 is overrated, so is Doom. Taking a step back, I'd say that both FF7 and Doom are generally rated somewhere between "GOAT" and "very, very, VERY good", outliers aside. Now, the perception of the actual quality of a game is always going to be subjective to some degree, so the way I see it, a good way to look at how a game should be rated (especially with the hindsight we have now) is to look at what it did for gaming, how it advanced the entire picture. And what I'm arguing is that Doom beats FF7 in that regard, so FF7 being overrated doesn't mean Doom is overrated.

Underrated/overrated isn't a valid criticism of any work in the first place. It doesn't say anything of substance about the thing in question, it just draws attention to the amount of popularity it has. Saying a creation is overrated/underrated is a faux criticism with the intent of drawing more attention to how unique the person saying it is for going against the grain, rather than actually saying anything meaningful about the thing in question.

>>1188613
This.

OP is such a god damn faggot I can't even handle it. Doom is good get over it, it's one of the best FPS games ever. OP play me a doom match and I will shit all over you so hard doing shit you would never see or imagine in single player. Doom is great because it takes all the bullshit about FPS and boils it off so its just skill. Using the slow ass rocket launcher is a skill, making 180 shots with the super shotgun is a skill, strafe running, map control, power up hoarding all are skills. Do new FPS have those? No map control in CoD death match because there are no health pick ups or weapons you need to prevent the enemy from having, you spawn with the baby tier gun you put in 1000 hours to get, hiding behind a wall waiting for your health to fill instead of venturing to where there may be a medkit and another player waiting to kill you, the risk in CoD is so minimal dying doesnt matter you get everything back again anyway. The speed of the game is because of the hitscan weapons you need to be that fast to dodge anything.

>>1188456
Doom's following isn't because it radically changed gaming. It's because it's a great game still. It looks decent with modern ports, runs well, s balanced well for SP. Overall good design. User content was available back when it came out, but it's even more moddable now. It's not where it is because it's the legendary Old Guard, it's where it is because it's the Old Veteran still kicking everyone's add. Especially in these day's where FPS games are at an all time low for gameplay and creativity.

It defined the genre and it stays as a leading centerpiece of the genre. Few games can really say that.

OP's example of FF7 is unrelatanle because it neither defined nor stayed as at the top of RPGs. It was just another notch in RPGs that broke sales records based on the wait time, new system and hype built up. It wad just a particularly favored flavor of the month.

>>1188590
Except Doom was ported to pretty much every console known to man and was still ubiquitously known outside of the PC world, primarily for its violence. The types of people who call OoT or FF7 the greatest of all time were kids who coincidentally had their first genre experience with them. FF7 was the first RPG for an enormous generation of kids, and OoT had this in addition to simply being a very early 3D action adventure game. They have more going for them than just nostalgia goggles, but that's still a significant factor in their popularity.

Doom doesn't really fall into that same boat. It attracted mostly PC gamers who were already older, and it didn't have a new emerging generation of gamers to latch onto it like FF7 and OoT did; if anything, that generation latched onto Goldeneye.

>>1188613
>>1188618
You're fucking stupid, when somebody says OoT is the greatest game of all time they are overrating it. Lots of people say that even though its not the greatest game of all time so ITS OVER RATED. Under rated is even more valid because a game might be really fucking amazing but unknown to the general public and that can be due to things like when it came out, how well it was advertised. Stop being a fucking dummy and pull your head out of your ass. Doom isn't over rated either, its a groundbreaking solid early FPS and nobody declares it GOAT like OoT fagets unless they are trolling.

>>1188619

>Doom is great because it takes all the bullshit about FPS and boils it off so its just skill.

I can't even comprehend how that works. Like, at all.

>>1188590
You'd be surprised. The thing about Ocarina of Time and FF7 is even when I first showed up online in the late-90s, people were already calling them the greatest games of all time. They've been super-massive and practically worshiped since their release. Especially Ocarina, which was a considered a total masterpiece from the word "go" 15 years ago. FF7 was huge too, but slightly smaller, and it blew up in to a whole different and more rabid (faggier) fanbase when shit like Advent Children came out.

I guess whenever people spend the last 15/16 years hearing about how flawless and incredible something is, they start to get sick of it. Ocarina and FF7 don't suck by any stretch of the imagination and they catch more flak on /vr/ than they deserve, but they've been considered pinnacles of gaming for ages, with Ocarina of Time regularly being talked about as THE greatest by pretty much every website and magazine since 1998, and FF7 has had the post-Advent Children weebs leghumping it hard for like 8 years. People want to move on.

>>1188427
>>mfw threads for classic greats like FF7 and Ocarina of Time are always shit up by people calling them "overrated"
>>mfw nobody ever calls out Doom for being overrated
>I don't even think it's a bad game, for its time anyway. It just doesn't deserve all the goddamn messianic worship it gets, especially on a board that can't have a thread on FF7 or OoT without people bickering about how overrated they are (to the point where you could argue they are no longer overrated due to how often they are called that).
>tl;dr Doomfags need to take off their nostalgia goggles and stop shitting on any FPS that isn't their sacred cow. They're like Souls fanboys, except DaS is actually good.

I'm sorry you've had what sounds like a shitty time discussing your favorite games on this board. I hope that in the future you can have discussion without such issues.

I don't know what doom has to do with this, because I've never called FFIV or OoT, and I don't think any other doomers on here have either, but these posts address your other points pretty well >>1188456 >>1188505.

I'm going to go work on my zdoom/zandronum mod and then later play some doom. I hope your experience on this board improves, OP.

Neither Doom, nor Final Fantasy VII, nor OoT are overrated. The very fact that they are held in such esteem over all these years, including getting the status where they are later call overrated, is ipso facto proof they are not.

>>1188427 (OP)
>>mfw threads for classic greats like FF7 and Ocarina of Time are always shit up by people calling them "overrated"
>>mfw nobody ever calls out Doom for being overrated
>I don't even think it's a bad game, for its time anyway. It just doesn't deserve all the goddamn messianic worship it gets, especially on a board that can't have a thread on FF7 or OoT without people bickering about how overrated they are (to the point where you could argue they are no longer overrated due to how often they are called that).
>tl;dr Doomfags need to take off their nostalgia goggles and stop shitting on any FPS that isn't their sacred cow. They're like Souls fanboys, except DaS is actually good.

I'm sorry you've had what sounds like a shitty time discussing your favorite games on this board. I hope that in the future you can have discussion without such issues.

I don't know what doom has to do with this, because I've never called FFVII or OoT overrated, and I don't think any other doomers on here have either, but these posts address your other points pretty well >>1188456 >>1188505.

I'm going to go work on my zdoom/zandronum mod and then later play some doom. I hope your experience on this board improves, OP.

>>1188636
FF7 and OoT are actually overrated.

>>1188624

My point was that every game can be a great game. Not many can be a definer like Doom was, simply by virtue of genres existing. Henceforth, it should be "rated" higher by default, which then means it should be "rated" higher than FF7, which then means that if FF7 is overrated, it doesn't mean that Doom is overrated. And in the end you don't become a definer if the game isn't excellent in the first place. That sort of goes without saying - but the way it defined the FPS puts it above the excellent games, which is why it's lauded to the high heavens even to this day instead of being another game in the "great games" list.

>>1188640
Those two games are equally influential.
Doom created the template for shooters.
OoT created the template for 3D action adventures.
FF7 created the template for cinematic games (not strictly with RPGs).

>>1188645
FF7 and OoT are overrated because they're getting more praise than they deserve, Doom deserves all the praise it has.

>>1188646

You could just as well argue that the flood of FMV games that came onto the market when CDs were becoming a thing created the template for "cinematic games", it's just that the template was kind of shite, but generic enough that it could be slapped onto anything, so it still became a success.

I feel like the only person who considers OoT the greatest game ever made without taking its influence or impact into account

I would stack it up against any game before or after it

>>1188648

That's pretty much what I'm trying to say, but it's 4 AM, and as such, my ability to form a really cohesive and comprehensive argument goes down in favor of verbosity and going in circles. I really should be going to bed.

>>1188651
That's your opinion, it's a wrong opinion. But you're entitled to be wrong.

>>1188650
>You could just as well argue that the flood of FMV games that came onto the market when CDs were becoming a thing created the template for "cinematic games"

They didn't because they failed. To create a template you need to produce something successful yourself. You could say that Body Harvest was the first 3D sandbox, but it was actually GTA3 that everybody copied.

Doom is the only FPS that hasn't aged poorly

Doom is the only FPS that is still as good as the day it was released

Doom is the true spirit of FPS that was crushed under the weight of inferior remakes like Half-life, Halo, and CoD

Doom is the only FPS that is currently worth playing

FF7 was merely more of the same, which is the definition of overrated if it gets a lot of hype

OP is an underaged idiot

Did I miss anything

>>1188679
This guy knows what he's talking about

I don't believe in the concept of a game "aging".

I find it kind of funny that all these people showed up to defend Doom and hold it up as some kind of shining pinnacle of gaming, with posts like >>1188645 basically saying it's impossible for the game to be overrated. Y'all are kind of proving OP right.

I mean really, you could use most of these defenses and reasons with any wildly popular game.

>>1188608

But your parameters for what is more or less innovative seems arbitrary. You say that Doom is more innovative because it sets the groundwork for all fpses, but OoT's innovation isn't as paramount because it was only a matter of time so to speak. However, consider for a moment which game really had more wide scale impact on the gaming landscape.

While Doom had many innovations, its limited exclusively to the genre of shooting things in first person with guns, a genre at this point of time so thoroughly played out that the only way to really innovate in the genre is to come up with alternative gimmicks. Doom did not solve the question of how to make 3D world navigation work in 3rd person, nor even 1st person either since technically the game wasn't even true 3D.

What more, OoT's innovations isn't exclusively tied to the action adventure genre. Its innovations not only changed the way certain genres were developed, it by extension created entirely new ones since there are multiple 3D game genres which could not function properly without a means of focusing the camera.

Part 1

>>1188648
Pretty much that. All of the games have their own degree of flaws and could be further improved, some more than others. But all were at least solid games. Except Doom raised the bar and continuously so to the point it tossed the bar onto another pole completely. FF7 and OoT were fairly top class, Doom started top class then made it's own class higher than top class then shit on top class. Which is why people might think it's overrated. Because it created a self growing beast of itself and few games even attempt that. To make a game that not only shits on everything else, defines the genre, practically invents real time multiplayer over networks and after that says everyone make me even better than I was.

People confuse popular and heavily rated with overrated. Doom if anything is underrated. For the exact reason that the OP said it was overrated. Him and many more people who are awful and/or new at games don't even understand the scope of Doom and think it worse for it.

>>1188694

Could you argue again that this does not make OoT special because it was only a matter of time until this innovation would have came into being from somewhere else? Sure, but then, going by these exact same dividing lines, Doom does nothing particularly special either, since it didn't even the fps genre, just refined it to a great extent, and refining genre standards is something countless games have done for multiple genres. Even by your dividing line, OoT is more unique for being the progenitor of a mechanic which pervades nearly every single game made to this day, while Doom's influence can be traced strictly through that of the fps genre. Sure you can play what if and guess who would started it if OoT didn't, but even still by your definitions OoT is more innovative than Doom since OoT is the progenitor of a major mechanic while at most Doom doesn't have credit for inventing the fps genre, just being one part of a long line of refinements at best.

Am I hating on Doom? No. It is a very influential game with a lot of impact on the fps genre and a great game in general, however since you found Doom very influential while simultaneously finding OoT's influences as not very important, I am only pointing out possible holes in that logic.

last part

Video game criticism has always been a joke because they judged games as products first and art second. Most reviewers were people who knew lots about games but little about anything else.

>>1188703
>Most reviewers were people who knew little about games and little about anything else either.
fix'd

Even old reviewers were bad and didn't really know jack shit.

/vr/
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hates
vid-yo games
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/vr/ doesn't like
/vr/ doesn't like
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>>1188701

*didn't even invent

my mistake

>>1188626

At best declaring something is over/under rated is making an observation, and nothing more. Tell me anon, what does it mean when someone says x is over/under rated? No, assumptions and implications are not substantial, what does it say of significance about the thing in question?

>post on /vr/
>complain about nostalgia goggles
good going op

>>1188679
hey hey
Half Life is still a damn good game fuck you

>>1188427
thanks for creating what is essentially a second doom thread faggot

wait wtf. enemy projectiles combined with the movespeed in doom is one of the best parts about doom. am i being rused?

>>1188724
>what does it say of significance about the thing in question?

When combined with the quality of the game, it can tell you two major things.
One people like shitty games and people hate good games.

>>1188427
yes, thank you OP, someone had to say it. doom made gaming worse, not better.

>>1188427
>mfw FF7 is now considered to be underrated
Get with the times, mang. Read the recent threads. So if you're saying Doom is "overrated" similar to FF7, then I suppose that really means it's underrated.

>>1188809

>When combined with the quality of the game

Yes, exactly. It doesn't tell you anything about that. So when people say 'its over/under rated' its only measuring its popularity, not the actual quality.

>>1188679
this must be that dogmatic behavior that inspired OP to make this thread.

>>1188626
>You're fucking stupid, when somebody says OoT is the greatest game of all time they are overrating it.

IN. YOUR. OPINION.

I don't even think Ocarina of Time is that good. Hell, I didn't like it that much when it came out, but to say it's overrated is fucking meaningless. Who is doing the rating? How exactly should it be rated, and how exactly is it rated now? And what scale are you working from? This is an entirely pointless argument because most of those questions can't be answered. You're basically saying "Most people think this game is really good, but I don't!" Well, great! Neither side can be proven wrong. Way to go.

>>1188629
>FF7 was huge too, but slightly smaller, and it blew up in to a whole different and more rabid (faggier) fanbase when shit like Advent Children came out.

It wasn't just the fanbase shit. There were commercials for it on TV. And when you got it home, you made some popcorn, turned off all the lights, and let that opening cinematic play. It was crazy. Like walking up to a Mario 64 kiosk in Toys R Us and using that analog stick for the first time. Shit was bonkers. And the fact that they both play just fine today is impressive given how many games from that era now play like total garbage because of all the innovations and control schemes that have come along.

Because FF7 and OoT, while popular, weren't excellent games. They stood upon the shoulders of giants without actually carving out anything significant of their own.

Even today, Doom is a well made game with a good deal of challenge to it. Further, unlike Ocarina of Time and FF7, there are still people making shit for Doom. It's a good basis for mod work because the engine is well built, easy to work with, and very stable in addition to it having graphics that are fairly easy to make look good.

Anyhow, don't shitpost and if you catch other people shitposting, report them rather than making assmad threads about it.

>>1188427
>As a result of all this, no strategy or thought or planning of any sort is required.

Also, I missed this, it's like you've never played Doom. Or at the very least never played it on UV or higher.

>>1188898
There are mods for the PC version of FF7. People are still working on them today.

>>1188892
>Because FF7 and OoT, while popular, weren't excellent games. They stood upon the shoulders of giants without actually carving out anything significant of their own.

Yes, because there were competent 3D action adventure games before OoT...

>>1188651
I can't stand it
the framerate is terrible, and the controls are imprecise and sluggish

a big reason i like doom is because id put playability first

JRPG fans' butthurt will supply me with laughter for the rest of my life. Thank all of you awkward fucks a million times over.

>>1188427

The name "Doom" is in reference to the engine itself more than anything at this point, as roughly 99% of players play mods and custom .wads exclusively now. So you're basically mad at a bunch of people for overhyping a game that none of them are specifically referring to when they praise "Doom", as they're talking about the engine itself, rather than any one particular game or level set. They mean the meta-Doom, not Ultimate Doom specifically.

As for what makes Doom so entertaining, It's the lack of all the things you mentioned. No "I can only hide in preset spots" stealth, no "go here, do this, go there, do that" objectives, no constant plot interruptions, no hand holding tutorials, no fluff at all. Just basic weapon types, enemies that can kick your ass regardless of how bad they seem to be and pure, unadulterated action. It's just fun to play and doesn't have to fall back on gimmicks to accomplish that.

Doom just drops you into a level and leaves you to figure the rest out on your own. And I honestly think that modern games hold your hand and tell you EXACTLY what to do (and automate things) WAY too much. It's not a videogame at that point anymore, it's a fucking movie, and you're just following the script.

As for the graphics... Well you have a valid point, but a lot of people still play NES and Atari games (and your precious FFVII), and legitimately don't give fuck-1 about how ugly retro graphics are. You'd have to be pretty fucking shallow to let how a game looks ruin the gameplay for you. Not to mention that the mod community has fixed that with Doom anyway.

Also, you're overlooking the obvious here: Doom was freeware. lots of people spread it around, even before the internet became widespread and millions of people played it in an era when there simply weren't millions of "gamers". Doom created gamers out of "normal" people in an era where the medium isn't ass acceptable as it is now. It fucking built this house.

Even FFVII can't claim that.

>>1188869
This. The whole "rated" thing should just go, it means nothing, there's no value in it.

>>1188427
FF7 and Ocarina of Time get praised non stop without substance. This puts a huge bulleye on their backs.
While Doom is praised it is not painted by majority as the end all be all. Doom is seen as a moment in history while FF7 and Ocarina of Time are seen as former pop hit chart toppers

Best Multiplayer FPS ever. The original Unreal is the best single player FPS. Shits all over Doom. The Unreal engine games have aged well.

>>1189107
>implying doom hasn't aged well

unreal tournament is garbage. all quake 3 style shooters are, but UT especially

>>1189108
Arena shooters are better than any cawadooty/battlefield type shooter. TF2 is a fucking hatfest too. UT was way better received by critics than Doom.

>>1189109
It hasn't compared to Unreal engine games. Any unreal engine game can run at 1080p without mods. Doom gets riced out worse than any game ever made and still looks worse with ugly tacked on particle effects.

>>1189107
No it isn't. No it hasn't. No it doesn't. No they haven't.

Congrats your a faggot who likes clunky buggy piles of shit.

>>1189120
How is the original Unreal engine buggy compared to Doom? Unreal was super advanced for the time, light years ahead of the ugly Quake II and decent Half-Life.

>>1189109
The monsters on Doom were fucking retarded. All of them. The archvile was the only one which made me think "oh shit". The original Unreal's enemies jumped, sniped, dodged, grabbed weapons sitting around, and played dead. Plus the Nali could help you find secrets if you could protect them. The weapons were way better than Doom also. Id Software is horribly overrated.

>>1189118
There's a seven year gap between the two games...

>>1189128
No, more like 4-5 years (Unreal was released in May 1998). Unreal will last the test of time due to better design. Perhaps a better comparison would be Quake II vs Unreal.

>>1189121
God I miss the days of endlessly playing Unreal Tournament so much it hurts.

>>1189130
Yeah, the only problem now is that there are still a lot of servers but a lot of them run shitty mods.

>>1188456
There's just so many things wrong with this post, I just don't even know where to start.

FF7 is a generic as fuck jrpg with shit writing and shit graphics

OoT is probably the most popular game EVER, despite the fact that it's not even the best game in a series that overall has pretty mediocre design.

Doom was released 20 fucking years ago and founded the FPS genre, but is still easily the best singleplayer FPS ever made.

Doom is really popular, but that doesn't mean it's overrated.

>>1189142
Unreal and Half-Life are the best singleplayer FPS games ever. Running around mazes looking for keys is fucking stupid.

>>1189143
But the question is, does anyone still play them?

>>1189143
I never actually played Unreal, but I know Half-Life is a fucking terrible game. It's the first linear, story-based fps, and it's the reason the fps genre is so fucking shit today. And it wasn't even fucking good like a lot of early linear fps's were able manage. The only thing it had going for it was a moderately interesting story.

Doom isn't about running around mazes collecting keys, it's about handling group enemy encounters smartly and efficiently, because there is actually quite a bit of depth to doing so unlike most games.

>>1189147
Of course people still play them. Half-Life especially. Doom is boring as fuck. Do yourself a favor and actually play Unreal on "Unreal" difficulty and play Half-Life on "Hard". The Skaarj from Unreal are smarter than the Elites from Halo.

>>1189151
Unreal is less linear than Doom, no keys to collect at any point in the game, boss battles were harder than just circle strafing and shooting, since the Warlord could fly and do barrel rolls, and the Queen could teleport and use a shield. Unreal had great weapons too, first game where you could snipe the head off of an enemy.

>>1189143
>Unreal and Half-Life are the best singleplayer FPS games ever.
They might have the best guns in the genre, but by no means they are the best, nope, not with that level design.
>Running around mazes looking for keys is fucking stupid.
How else do you give the player an incentive to explore the level as opposed to beelining towards the exit straight away?

>>1189160
Unreal was more than Hell, Mars, and military bases. There were temples, prison ships, ruins, castles, alien motherships, you name it. In Unreal you progress more organically, for example you would read the sign on the wall to find that you need the "stick of six fires", fight your way to the pool of thunder, bathe in it, then retrieve the rocket launcher and progress to the next level. In the Terraniux you had to disable the mercenaries' security systems and on the Skaarj mothership you dismantled the ship, progressing until you killed the Queen at the end.

>>1189151
Elites in Halo are fucking retarded though.

That's what's great about Doom though, the AI is incredibly simple, enough so that you can learn every behavior of an enemy type in one or two encounters.

But they are used in conjunction with each other, and the map layout to make legitimately difficult encounters. The designers have that ability, and the player can see what the designers are trying to do precisely because the AI is so simple. Rather than trying to make good AI, which even today is pretty much impossible, they just used simple AI and good design.

>>1189171
What you're describing is literally just keys by another name.

>>1188923
OoT was standing on the shoulders of the previous Zelda games, and especially Link to the Past since it's effectively LttP in 3D.

It wasn't competently done in 1998 either. I always hated playing the demo of the game in stores. Only being able to change the camera by using Z was clunky as hell since you first had to face where you wanted the camera to go. SM64's camera solution was slightly better, but still clunky due to the N64 not having a second stick.

>>1189179
>Only being able to change the camera by using Z was clunky as hell since you first had to face where you wanted the camera to go.

I don't think I've ever heard anybody else having this complaint.

>>1189178
But every map is different. Smarter enemies are more fun than stupid zombies and monsters you can just circle strafe. The titan would throw several 1 hit kill rocks to the front and side of you so simply strafing would kill you. The system of progression is different from finding keys, it is based on scripted events rather than collectible items and is different on each level. The Skaarj Troopers were really smart and could use any gun that you have. The monsters have tricks up their sleeves, they know when to charge, flee, play dead, etc.

>>1188427
>stop shitting on any FPS that isn't their sacred cow
But Doom fans don't do this. Stop putting words in our mouths. We have a lot of respect for Duke Nukem 3D, Blood, Redneck Rampage, Rise of the Triad and Marathon.

>>1189150
Actually it barely had a story. It just didn't do cutscenes like doom and interjected a few talking pieces amongst set pieces and called it a story. Aside from that 95% of it run and shoot gameplay with flipping switches alongside poor AI, collision detection, poor netcode for multiplayer, bugs for days. It was a mediocre title, not terrible. For all it's faults it still is far better than Halo. The real reason Half Life even sold though was all the console babbies flooding CS.

>>1189178
> Rather than trying to make good AI, which even today is pretty much impossible,

There's a difference between impossible and no one even fucking trying. Guess which one it really is.

>>1189179
>SM64's camera solution was slightly better,
It really wasn't. SM64's camera is a fucking sloppy jizz lip mess in comparison to OoT.

>>1189204
>Doom fans don't trash other 90s games
Who invented the phrase "Doom clone" to describe these games then? Was it a conspiracy by RPG fans?

>>1189204
Blood, Redneck Rampage and Marathon are shit fests.

Duke3D is, decent. RoTT was, mediocre. RoTT's major failing was being so similar to Wolf3D in that the levels sucked dick. Not as bad as Wolf3D.

>>1189209
Probably the people who made the games actually. The term FPS didn't come around for quite a while after doom. For the longest time they were just called Doomlikes.

>>1189209
>Who invented the phrase "Doom clone" to describe these games then?
"Doom clone" is not an insult, it just describes a specific style of FPS. It's like saying "roguelike" to describe games similar to Rogue.

>>1189212
>implying this isn't the pinnacle of FPS map making

>>1189209
>Who invented the phrase "Doom clone" to describe these games then? Was it a conspiracy by RPG fans?

You're either a troll or literally eight years old.

>Probably the people who made the games actually.

You might be twelve.

The people who invented the phrase "Doom clones" were the gaming journalists. The term was used to the dismay of gamers and Doom players, to mean First Person Shooter. That's exactly what it was used for, but occasionally it broke out of hand and some nitwit troll retards would bitch that 'all FPS are Doom' despite the fact that most of them had at best passing resemblances by simply being FPS games.

>>1189217
No one's implying that. I'm stating it outright Mr. Twisty MacTesticles.

>>1189217
Wolfenstein had a lot of silly map designs.

It was kinda clever the first time they incorporated the swastika into a level design, but they used that gimmick like four times and it kinda got old.

The best Wolfenstein levels are the ones that are kinda realistic, that have prison blocks and big dining halls and stuff. Like E1M2. Those levels actually make you feel like you're in a Nazi stronghold, and not just a generic video game dungeon.

>>1189142
>still easily the best singleplayer FPS ever made
lol

>>1189229
>Nazi strongholds only have elevators, no stairs, and 90 degree turns, biq square sliding doors

>>1189218
Doom fans got assmad because Duke Nukem and Blood were games with personality. The doom clone term fell apart when good FPS games like Half-Life and Unreal came out and rolled over id's shitty overrated games

>>1189235
>nitpicking over technical limitations in a game made over twenty years ago

Wolfenstein 3D's maps were built from square tiles, like 99% of video games at the time. What, do you seriously expect full 3D environments and polygons in a game from 1992?

>>1189242
I got it in 1980 with Battlezone, Alone in the Dark had full 3d in 1992.

>>1189243
alone in the dark was also slow as fuck.

>>1189229
> but they used that gimmick like four times and it kinda got old.

It was less that it got old and more that Wolfenstein 3D was a 3D game, from the first person perspective. While you might say, "HEY! THIS MAP IS A SWASTIKA!" in reality, no one really mapped the levels they just ran around in them until they beat them generally. And frankly swastikas also make for shit level design. Even worse is more than one swastika, because then you're left with four sets of 8 long hallways no one gives two shits about.

>>1189240
No. Doom fans were fine with Duke because it was a good game. No one but retards cared about Blood. And the term fell apart when people were more serious and knowledgeable about categorizing game genres with proper language. It had nothing to do with id's good rated games. In fact, Doom clone was starting to trend out in 1995. It had nothing to do with the quality of any games and everything to do with recognizing all games with guns are not 'clones of Doom,' recognizing that the genre wouldn't be absurdly called the Doom clone genre, because that's just fucking stupid, especially when games aren't clones of Doom and finally, because with the proper usage of FPS out there people didn't look like tools who don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

>>1189243
>Alone in the Dark
As soon as I made that post I knew someone was gonna mention Alone in the Dark. But didn't Alone in the Dark have fixed camera angles with prerendered backgrounds, like Resident Evil?

At the time Wolfenstein 3D was pretty damn impressive.

>>1189243
Alone in the Dark wasn't 3D environments, it was 2D backgrounds with 3D objects on top. Also it ran like shit.

>>1188427
>tl;dr Doomfags need to take off their nostalgia goggles and stop shitting on any FPS that isn't their sacred cow. They're like Souls fanboys, except DaS is actually good.
>+122 posts and 15 image replies omitted

b-but muh F.E.A.R.

>>1189347
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