/vr/ - Retro Games

>>11015927
Divided of course
The correct opinion is that it's a solid, high quality game that is overrated by n64 kids who played it when they were 10 and came of age in an echo chamber of people who all agreed with them and sucked it off as the GOAT.

>>11015927
masterpiece

>>11015927
never heard of it. Must be shit

>>11015927
Its just yet another shitty adventure game without any gameplay loop or fun arcadey action. You're better off playing Ninja Gaiden (NES), that is actually a good video game.

>>11015927
it's a genuinely good game that doesn't live up to its cultural status as some sort of revolutionary advancement in interactive entertainment. hell, maybe it's even great. but it's not the best game ever, or even top 10.

1/2

32 yo anon here. Absolutely iconic - I vividly remember playing it as a kid for the first time and how it blew me away when it first came out. The atmosphere and expansiveness of it was unlike anything else at the time. The nostalgia I have for it is immense.

However, I think the "best game of all time" thing is in dire need of a reappraisal. The game is ridiculously easy even without accounting for the fact you can have four free resurrections - Nothing simply hurts you enough to pose a real threat and enemy AI isn't aggressive enough to force you to think about positioning; The Stalfos fights are a great example; It looks intense at first, but in reality you really only need to look at one of them at a time and block since the other one won't engage you. Pretty much all bosses suffer from this, so most of them just boil down to using the dungeon item. And even if you do get hit, you'll lose what, maybe one heart?

Puzzles are nothing to write home about - None of them are brain stumpers or force you to think laterally or in creative ways, but only really feel like a basic awareness check of the area you are in. (Hope you like opening a door by moving a statue on it, finding the hidden switch in the room and shooting it, running through a fire wall labyrinth that knocks you into an uninterruptable animation if you turn the wrong way, or just using the dungeon item like a trained monkey) Since they are so simple, once you've solved them they just end up feeling like time wasters on replays.

>>11015996

2/2

Hyrule field is devoid of meaningful content and only there to sell the scale of the world - Granted, it achieves this, but it loses its novelty quick and just makes traversal tiresome and its a long way into the game until you get teleportation songs to mitigate this.

Its not even an age thing, there are older Zelda games which I'd argue beat OoT in all the areas that matter - I'd even go as far as saying all the previous 2D Zeldas are much more rewarding to replay; They all have denser overworlds, their challenge is harder so engaging with the side content for heart pieces and sword upgrades etc feels more justified, The combat is more proactive since its based on positioning and reaction rather than mindless Z-targeting+shielding, they are less aggressively linear so there's more variety when replaying them, they are faster paced and you get right into the action much faster, and there are few if any uninterruptable cutscenes, all of them mercifully brief.

For as iconic of a game it is and the era it represents, the dirty little secret about OoT is that was always made for the lowest common denominator and as such isn't a particularly deep or rewarding game. I love it, but replaying it is genuinely drab compared to its 2D predecessors; Calling OoT the best game of all time or even its own series is either genuine insanity or an N64 fanboyfully deluded by their nostalgia

>>11015996
>>11016003
I have a hard time with OoT. Also you are never asked to go to hyrule field so who cares.
I like how you pretended to like this game to reel people into your shitpost.

OoT has to be the more overanalyzed media from people trying to convince themselves they had a bad time

Oh boy, another fucking Zelda thread made by this OP.
https://desuarchive.org/vr/search/filename/oot/image/95IU9aIq3GdundoZ9Rqr_Q/

Can't wait for it to go to shit with Trooncord infighting or derail into arguing about all Zeldas like usual.

>11016018
Oh so you just wanted a flamewar thread like the faggot OP you are.

>>11016027
I'm not the OP I just don't get why people on this board give this game so much shit. It's really good.

>>11015927
>Ocarina of Reddit

>>11015982
>that doesn't live up to its cultural status as some sort of revolutionary advancement in interactive entertainment
I was gonna' ask for counter examples to this claim, but then I remembered that /vr/'s overrun by pretentious, cultureless larpers who weren't there.

>>11015941
Actually I was 4 years old and it was the GOAT.

>>11016030
>Popularity's overblow way out of proportion
>Fanbase is obnoxious and sensitive (see: this board and your post)
>Neurodivergants have an age old grudge/vendetta against Nintendo they never grew out of
That about sums it up.

>>11016071
You don't have to be mean all the time

>11016075
>Says the troon who made this post >11016018

>>11015996
>>11016003
My take is this. You are completely right about all these things, they are serious flaws that hold back the game from being as good as it could have been.

However, the fact that it IS as good as it is, despite these problems, only goes to show how incredibly well constructed the excellent elements it does have are. The fact that it mogged the entire lineup of 1998's titles even with these faults just show that it's THAT good, that even if it could almost trivially be significantly better, it didn't NEED to be to still be better than everything else, it was that accomplished.

>>11016089
Can't you just go on /v/ I don't get it

>>11016003
>Hyrule field is devoid of meaningful content and only there to sell the scale of the world - Granted, it achieves this, but it loses its novelty quick and just makes traversal tiresome and its a long way into the game until you get teleportation songs to mitigate this.
I loved and hated Hyrule field as a kid. It was super scary to have to run past the spnning things, and the skeletons that came out at night were super scary too. It made the world feel alive when travelling to a new place even if by todays standards it feels empty. We also went and explored every bush and every stone as we got more items to explore with.
>>11015996
>However, I think the "best game of all time" thing is in dire need of a reappraisal. The game is ridiculously easy even without accounting for the fact you can have four free resurrections - Nothing simply hurts you enough to pose a real threat and enemy AI isn't aggressive enough to force you to think about positioning; The Stalfos fights are a great example; It looks intense at first, but in reality you really only need to look at one of them at a time and block since the other one won't engage you. Pretty much all bosses suffer from this, so most of them just boil down to using the dungeon item. And even if you do get hit, you'll lose what, maybe one heart?
It was perfect for those of us who were kids at the time. I struggled through that game. It was a real challenge, both mentally and combat wise. Kids are stupid, they frequently make mistakes over and over. I didn't even speak English and I played it a ton.
The fact that it was easy is a big part of what made it so memorable. If people couldn't complete the game because it was too hard they'd never get the full experience. Not every game needs to be kaizo or souls. It was a great difficulty for a bunch of kids who had never played a 3D game before in their life, or maybe only tried Super Mario 64.
They are games that kids should enjoy first and foremost.

>11016104
I would really prefer if you would be quiet.

>>11015927
One of the few series to get the most from the transition to 3D. I really appreciate OoT and MM, for their environments being designed with 3D interactivity in mind first and foremost. Unlike with most other 3D games, which are only slightly more interactive than a movie.

>>11016075
Anon, so far anyone ITT who are actually discussing the game aren't being mean - It isn't a personal attack when somebody tells you they don't like a game; That is just them telling you their opinion on it.

I find OoT a fascinating case since even as the intended audience (I was 7 when it came out and played it on release) I find the game has a lot of flaws that get seemingly overlooked by people who maintain it is and always have been the best game of all time. Of course, anyone is free to claim a game is the best game of all time, but once you start throwing that sort of claim around, it invites scrutiny. I don't think OoT stands up to that scrutiny - Once we start comparing it just previous Zelda games >>11016003
it has a lot of very objective problems that puts a serious hole in a "Best game of all time" category, most of them being that the game is pretty boring - Not for its age, but for its design choices.

Like, can you honestly tell me you combat in OoT is deeper than AlltP or Zelda 2? That the best strategy in combat is to not even fight at all since the vast majority of enemies can't pursue you if you just run from them, and they don't drop anything you can't readily get from pots so there's literally no point to engage unless the game forces you to fight them? That half the inventory you get is superflous and that rupees are useless outside of paying for minigames that expand your already liberal arrow and bomb capacity? That most puzzles aren't just slow busywork built for eight-year olds that just slow the game down on replays?

>It was the first of its kind
>They didn't know better back then

There's plenty of pioneering old games that don't suffer from these problems; Again, previous Zeldas get around all the points above with the possible exception of the puzzles, but even then I think 2D Zeldas are more clever. And its not like being timeless is restricted to 2D games, Doom is still a fantastic game despite being a very early 3D game.

>>11015961
lol

>>11016186
>Like, can you honestly tell me you combat in OoT is deeper than AlltP or Zelda 2?

When fighting things in game, no.

But when properly taken advantage of via mods and hacks, absolutely. The combat mechanics are excellent far out of proportion with anything else at the time, but just not utilized properly. OoT's combat mechanics make Soul look amateur.

>>11016232
>via mods and hacks
Anon... That's like saying Skyrim is a pedophile game because of that one mod that you could install.

>>11016269
Lets not conflate the two with such an extreme example of pedophilia, but this anon is right - For OoT to stand on its own the combat mechanics need to be utilized in vanilla; Its the same reason we judge Super Mario World on its own level design merits and not any of its billion hacks

On that note, I've not played any OoT mods that forces you to use its combat - Any recs? I'd be interested to test it.

>>11016304
>Lets not conflate the two with such an extreme example of pedophilia
I used hyperbole to point out how retarded it is to judge a game from 1997 on the mods in 2024.

I grew up with OoT. I got it on Christmas morning when I was 8 years old and I watched my brother play it for hours before I finally got a shot at it.

Overall, it's still a fantastic game. I think it's both underrated and overrated by modern gamers, and yet I still think it's one of the funnest games of all time. I can understand why newer gamers wouldn't, though.

A few topics:
>Difficulty
Moving in a 3D environment was not really well established at the time -- especially for action games. I remember dying many times to many different bosses and enemies in the game. I know as an adult, I could breeze through it without series risk of death, but that's a product of both specific and general experience. People with general experience might find the game easy. I agree with another poster -- I don't think the pleasure from this game derives from its difficulty. It manages to be gripping and exciting and interesting even in spite of its difficulty.

>Atmosphere
OoT remains one of the best games EVER in terms of establishing atmosphere. Too many games rely on set pieces or hokey cutscenes, but OoT's atmosphere is incredible. Entering the Deku Tree for the first time is beyond compare. You FEEL that the space is sacred, but decaying and dangerous. And the cutscene that you DO get when you finish the Deku Tree feels like a genuine reward: it doesn't overstay its welcome, but it's powerful and gripping. There's countless examples of great atmosphere: the Well, hell, almost ALL of the temples. Even the dialogue with the girls that like link is soulful and great at building atmosphere.

>Exploration
I don't have time cause my flight is boarding but modern games don't reward exploration. Or rather, they OVER-REWARD it. Every thing in a game nowadays HAS to have a meaning or a purpose or a trophy attached. OoT was unique because there's a lot of weird hidden shit there that had no purpose other than being interesting and unique. This made it feel special

>>11015927
>Press A to Awesome slop
no thanks. ill stick to Touhou Koumakyou - Embodiment of Scarlet Devil. Now THATS a game with a bit of class

>>11015927
It takes so long to get to the good parts, pacing is just absolute shit, but once you get there it's pretty good, Majora's mask is just all the good bits with the fluff removed early, its why it's so beloved even now, and that swimming is still the best in gaming

And people call me crazy when I said /vr/ is overtaken by Redditors when post like >>11016335 exist.

SOTN is a much better action RPG with superior combat, exploration, atmosphere, music, graphics, world-building and plot.

The fact that so many sites still name Ocarina of Time as "the greatest or most significant or most influential" video game ever only tells you how far video games still are from becoming a serious art. Film critics have long recognized that the greatest films of all times are Citizen Kane and The Birth of a Nation, who were not the most famous or richest or best sellers of their times, let alone of all times. Literature critics rank the highly controversial Joyce's Ulysses over classical novels who were highly popular in libraries around Europe. Video games critics are still blinded by commercial success. Ocarina of Time invented lock-on (not true, by the way), therefore it must have been the greatest. Film critics grow up watching a lot of films of the past, literature critics grow up reading a lot of classical books of the past. Video game critics are often totally ignorant of the video games of the past, they barely know the Nintendo games. No wonder they will think that Ocarina did anything worthy of being saved.

>>11016003
>made for the lowest common denominator
Just going to stop you there because you seem to have implied that a retro puzzle-adventure game is made for retards.
In a world where modern AAA and mobile games exist, this disingenuous remark can only be interpreted as overcompensation.
I'm sure you are V-E-R-Y smart, anon. Yes, we are all D-E-E-P-L-Y impressed by your intelligence.
Now that your ego has been sufficiently stroked, please keep the takes deep-seated in reality.

>>11015927
I think it's perfect and does many things that newer games don't. It doesn't age at all.

>>11015927
Timeless, a game I'll be playing when im 80 if I'm still alive and not fucked in the head with dementia
>>11015941
the first time i played oot i was 23, I disagree about it being an echo chamber thing, it's just a legitimately masterful game.

taking this thread as an opportunity to talk about the decompilation and recompilation breakthroughs for N64 "emulation" recently.
I legitimately think OOT and MM will probably be the only one's that ever get made alongside SM64 (that no one uses because it requires you to run linux through a virtual machine and doesn't have a native windows port).
I know that everyone is excited about the recompilation tool but i think people are mislead into thinking it is a "drag a N64 ROM into this program and it poop's out a working .exe conversion" whereas in reality it does require a decent amount of coding / tinkering to get working, especially with unique micro-code if you want the full gambit of goodies of 60fps, widescreen support, etc.
this combined with the fact the creator mr.wiseguy has said he doesn't have the time to make more than just the two zelda recomp's leads me to believe it'll either be many years until you see another N64 recomp and if it does it'll just be the same handful of popular games you can play now OR it'll never take off as a concept as people are content just using emulation as it runs 99% of the N64 catalogue at the "fine" level of quality.
either way, if an anon is reading this with the knowledge of how to do this shit, please make a conversion of the N64 castlevania games PRETTY PLZ WITH SUGAR ON TOP.

>>11016186
>Doom is still a fantastic game despite being a very early 3D game
Doom is a terrible example because it is entirely carried by mods. No one says doom 2 or final doom the stock game is a top game of all time.

>11016675
I'll take that as a concession.

>>11016901
I agree with you about what will/won't get comps. It'll only ever be 1st parties and classics like Banjo. We'll sooner see a Conker or Hey You Pikachu comp before, say, Jet Force Gemini. Passion and autism is what drives these things, but the majority of autistics and code monkeys only care specifically about 'tendo titles as do the masses.
All we'll really get out of it is
>Mario 64, Kart, Paper, Party
>Smash
>Pokemon Stadium, Snap
>Banjo 1 & 2
>DK64

>>11015941
>it's a solid, high quality game
incredible and innovative at the time, but it has aged rather poorly. of course you can still play it and even enjoy it, but any objective analysis recognizes that it has very primitive executions of concepts.

everything else you said is 100% correct though. oot zealots are retarded.

>>11016057
>who weren't there.
"good at the time" is not an argument.

>>11016092
>However, the fact that it IS as good as it is, despite these problems, only goes to show how incredibly well constructed
yes, nintendo did a very good job for their first attempts at 3d with oot and mario64. a lot of people bungle and miss the mark, but they made things remarkably playable and comparatively refined. however, it is still noticeably primitive when you compare to modern gaming standards, and that is non-negotiable. "good at the time" is not an argument.

>>11016053
Being a contrarian is the absolute definition of a redditor

>>11015927
It fascinated me as a kid, my friend had it and I'd go over to take turns playing. I begged my mom for it but she ended up getting me Majora's Mask instead. Majora's Mask was so much better it's not even funny.

When did /vr/ become contrarian? /vr/ used to be the opposite of that shithole /v/

Everyone, say hello to "zealot" spammer
>>11017441

>36 years old
https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/678375608/#q678395148

>Wagie
https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/678375608/#q678396674

>Obsessed with a game/fandom he hates
https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/678375608/#q678394196

>Spammed his buzzword for 8 years
https://desuarchive.org/vr/search/text/%22zelda%20zealots%22/

https://arch.b4k.co/v/search/text/%22zelda%20zealots%22/order/asc/

https://desuarchive.org/vr/search/text/%22oot%20zealots%22/order/asc/

https://arch.b4k.co/v/search/text/%22oot%20zealots%22/order/asc/

>>11017589
>spammer
its simply the most apt word. you mad or something? lol
>wagie
draw whatever conclusion you want, but all i said was i have a job
>obsessed
i like to express my opinion. you actually out yourself as objectively more obsessed by whipping out your hate boner with this post, lol
>for 8 years
not sure where you got "8" from, but i have never put a numerical value on anything
>a bunch of archive shit
>minimal results
>also false positives because some of those arent me, as proven that i never really capitalize things. so you out yourself as a failing "research" too

its funny that you think you have anything to present, other than outing yourself as having nothing of value to say.

>>11015927
Ludocore.

>>11015927
>What does /vr/ think of this game?
many many things

>>11015927
Best Zelda game.

>>11017519

>>11017817
they really do feel like baby games. especially on the aspect of puzzles, lufia 2 on the snes absolutely blows the entire franchise out of the water with both variety and complexity.

>>11016463
I like /vr/ because people have enough brain cells to actually discuss and analyze vidya. If you just want to parrot the words "REDDIT" without actually ever saying anything unique or interesting, maybe go back to /v/ and rid us of your insipid comments.

It’s pretty mid

>>11017441
>it has aged rather poorly
Games don't age you limp wristed faggot.

>>11016491
Films are not art.

>>11016491
>Birth of a Nation
Bro you have to be fucking joking. BoaN is important historically, but it has aged awfully and no serious film critic rates it as one of the top even 20 movies.

Also, if you want to laud a medium as being artistically valid, you should probably not be citing the most irreverent pseudo-intellectual gatekeep-y bullshit.

Catcher in the Rye or 1984 are examples of literary art without being as pretentious and masturbatory as Ulysses. Don't even get me started on Finnegan's Wake.

>>11018087
>>11018094
baited by pasta

>>11016304
>On that note, I've not played any OoT mods that forces you to use its combat - Any recs?
There's a well made hack that just came out that focuses on combat, Ultimate Trial.
https://hylianmodding.com/mods/ultimate_trial

>>11016491
I'll take the bait I guess.

Film is a completely different kind of medium, and like books or regular art, is usually not interactive or participatory. Judging the quality of a game's story and how it tells it is fair, and you can even compare to other narrative works, but a videogame MUST fundamentally be an interactive experience with goals.
It's always been asinine to go on about muh Citizen Kane when videogames have a different/additional scope it needs to contend with, hence the phrase Ludonarrative Dissonance even existing, people who still pray to Roger Ebert for approval on videogames are horrendously misguided at best, or don't actually like videogames at worst.

Further, Birth Of A Nation wasn't lauded because it told an incredible story, had fantastic characters, or was an amazing adventure, what it did so well was to have a fundamentally well constructed script together with good directing of photography, solid and smart editing, and all set to a musical score. All of those together at once wasn't commonplace in movies in 1915, and this was one of the first really big American film productions too, so it was a big landmark for US culture in that sense. The production value was high and the execution very solid.
It can never be denied that Birth Of A Nation is a historically significant film, but as everyone learned from its structure, films became better in general and other people made better works learned from its composition (including racist films, for those who consider it an important element).

tl;dr you're a gigantic fucking mongoloid pseud for insisting that videogames, where storytelling is frequently a secondary objective at best by the nature of the medium, should strive for story similar to a film which is primarily remembered not for its story, characters, or acting, but for its at the time good technical execution.

>>11015927
Meh, it's just a big "whatever" for me.

>>11016491
Getting to the next part, because I ran out of space.

>Video games critics are still blinded by commercial success. Ocarina of Time invented lock-on (not true, by the way), therefore it must have been the greatest. Film critics grow up watching a lot of films of the past, literature critics grow up reading a lot of classical books of the past. Video game critics are often totally ignorant of the video games of the past, they barely know the Nintendo games. No wonder they will think that Ocarina did anything worthy of being saved.
If your only knowledge of videogame critics are the typical paid off advertisers proclaiming themselves as journalists, and/or the political activists, I could see why this would be your perspective, which betrays how absolutely fucking little you actually know about videogames and the fields around them.

Your argument is basically that crass commercialism and shitty journalism exists, as if that was unique to videogames. Are movies as a medium "not mature," simply because you can go and dig up any random asshole who jerks off furiously to the latest Disney-Marvel assemblyline product? Does that undo The Godfather, 2001, or Robocop? Did the entirety of the film medium fail in "being mature" when Cannon Ball Run made mountains and mountains of money, in spite of actually being a really shitty and unfunny movie, or when Police Academy was desperately shaken down for endless sequels? I would say no.

To say that games of the past don't get appreciation or recognition is ignorance at best, and an intentional lie at worst, given the board that we're on and how big corporations to this day still make money on re-releasing their old games (or more regretfully, needlessly remaking them).
You really are an absolutely tremendous and dishonest faggot, a cocksucker of legends, everything about this post/pasta is bullshit, retarded, or reductive.

>>11017467
>however, it is still noticeably primitive when you compare to modern gaming standards
How come? What did modern games add since then that is conceptually new?

>>11018510
>>11018550
Imagine being this invested over pasta

>>11016452
>Majora's mask is just all the good bits
Except dungeons...

>>11018571
I am constipated and I need something to do.

ocarina is a very accessible game with nothing very challenging or complicated for the player to think about or push them. You can complete the game with the most basic level of skill (knowing what the buttons do) and have no problem. The game has built in systems to make it easier for you such as stray fairies in bottles making it so you can throw link at a problem until it eventually solves itself. You do not have to understand how the mechanics work beyond a surface level, you do not have to understand how combat works beyond a surface level, and just for accessibility reasons the story never goes beyond the surface level so you don't have to think very hard, you can just watch the events fold out.

It is liked by many for this reason. People go back to play old games and they pick "the most game of all time" and find it's playable and they put it away after half an hour then they run to the internet to say it aged well. They get told to try tomb raider which is also a beloved game, can't figure out how to quick turn (as this board has proven) and struggles to grab after jumping and declares it "aged poorly" after they failed to get the slope jump secret in stage 1.

It wouldn't be hyperbole to say the biggest influence of ocarina is ruining the reputation of old games for being different. Ocarina is the icon of conformism for this reason. It's paraded as such by those who declare it influenced everything with big pics of quotes.

>>11018764
To be honest Tomb Raider was bad even at the time. Objectively bad controls that simply do not feel good to interact with in any way.

>>11018787
Controls are great in tomb raider, better than zelda.

>>11018872
Even by tank control standards the controls in TR are shit.

>>11015927
Depends on how old the poster is.

But real time, this and Mario 64 changed the game for the industry forever and does deserve it's "greatest game of all time" title.

>>11018081
>i am unable to perceive progress and differences
i accept your concession

>>11018565
>What did modern games add since then that is conceptually new
its not really a matter of "adding new", but more importantly of refinement of execution.

>>11018787
>>11018872
>>11018883
Tomb Raider is the kind of game that benefited greatly from being released in the particular time it did. It's because of the set jump arcs, the awkward and slow but precise turning, the way environments are naturally made up of blocks that are readable and yet ambiguous enough to conceal secrets etc. that the game makes sense and can present 'platforming puzzles' in ways that fit like a glove, but which wouldn't make sense otherwise. Tomb Raider is a great game, and its levels are easily superior to OoT's dungeons, but it is an awkward game with 'unrefined' mechanics that limit it as much as they help it.

>>11018764
You obviously have little clue why people actually love Ocarina and are projecting your lack of understanding to make out like you must actually be the more sophisticated one for missing what others see in it. Nothing else so convincingly sets out a 'world space' and makes use of carefully thought out contrasts to create an unsurpassed sense of immersion. Even as immersive as Tomb Raider is, OoT achieves so much moire.

>>11018896
Complete bullshit.
Similar games were cropping up at the time without any influence from each other like MML.
It's a natural consequence of the technology.
The biggest difference between MML and OOT are the controls, which are a direct result of the different controller hardware.

At least with Mario 64 that hardware was developed in tandem with it but you can't say the same about Zelda.

>>11018907
>but more importantly of refinement of execution.
OoT is more refined in most ways. You can play a modern game, then go back to OoT and feel how crisp and well defined its controls are in comparison. It was far advanced of its era. Every actual fault or weakness it has is something Miyamoto explicitly lamented holding back on.

>>11018883
Elaborate to prove zelda fans arent trolls.

>>11018943
It's a cinematic platformer so the developers spent more time on how the animations look than making the game actually responsive to control. Just compare how smoothly Resident Evil 1 controls in comparison.

>>11015927
A master piece. It's just that retards judge retroactively. A work should be judged within the confines of its period's context.

>>11018928
>You can play a modern game, then go back to OoT and feel how crisp and well defined its controls are in comparison
unless you are intentionally seeking out shovelware trash, you are delusional and willfully ignorant beyond words.

>>11018965
It's a puzzle platformer, get the genre right elf boy.

>>11018967
>A work should be judged within the confines of its period's context.
then nothing can ever truly be compared. you can call oot "greatest game ever made", but then you can also call pong "greatest game ever made" and tetris "greatest game ever made" and baldur's gate 3 "greatest game ever made", and you cant refute any of it because they come from different times. they can all be valid while being contradictory? what about art that only ever gets appreciated well after the artist's death? are we to say "well, its actually trash, because the people at the time considered it trash"?

you're fucking retarded to be so willfully ignorant. you cant just put blinders on for convenience, just so you can suck off your favorite game. "good at the time" is a meaningless metric, and you're just a salty bitch unable to recognize and reconcile the fact that it has aged poorly.

by all means, praise it for being a landmark in videogame history, but that doesnt mean it is immune from being surpassed in quality. it is wildly disingenuous to refuse to compare and recognize progress.

>>11019018
I'm not reading all your autism babble, you salty loser. You can definitely compare games from different periods, it's just that it's unfair to judge a 20 year old game by today's standards. Context matters.

>>11018764
Maybe Tomb Raider's controls weren't very good.

>>11018919
>OoT achieves so much moire.
Like what? Long text scrawls for tutorials or story dumps to tell you the bad guy did indeed do a bad thing?

>>11019028
They are too much for bad players who would prefer modern games like uncharted and horizon zero dawn.

>>11018919
Well put.

>>11018883
Incorrect. Lara's movements are very precise and predictable, navigating the environments is fun in a way that's frankly not in Ocarina. What Ocarina does is allow you to move much more quickly and comfortably through large 3D environments without having to think much about details, except where the details are specifically desired (eg you need to climb this wall or use the hook shot in this one spot). In Tomb Raider, terrain navigation (eg platforming) challenges are more consistently a core part of the gameplay.

>>11018970
>Shovelware
Zoomer, please.

>>11015952
/thread

>>11019034
The hardest parts of Tomb Raider are all a result of the bad controls and camera.

>>11019046
A testament to the quality of the controls that even with a poorly set up camera you can still succeed, knowing what to do ahead of time (you can look with triangle) and understanding the timing of the movements makes something like this automatic, while in Zelda it would literally be impossible. Passing this situation would not be possible without good controls which Tomb Raider certainly has despite Zelda fans struggling with them.

>>11019050
>You obviously have little clue why people actually love Ocarina and are projecting your lack of understanding to make out like you must actually be the more sophisticated one for missing what others see in it.

>>11019050
>A testament to the quality of the controls that even with a poorly set up camera you can still succeed
I like how something just being at all completable is considered an accomplishment in this case.

>>11019025
>it's unfair to judge a 20 year old game by today's standards. Context matters.
why is it unfair exactly? because then your precious favorite game is recognized for how bad it actually is, and you cant handle it? its like a tranny being forced to look in the mirror, huh?

when people try to claim "greatest game ever made", its the "ever made" part that validates comparison and scrutiny by modern standards. it doesnt matter how much you like it. it doesnt matter how popular or good it was at the time.

also, people that say "masterpiece" even in its own right for its time, are also disingenuous faggots. oot has a myriad of flaws and frustrations not present in other contemporary games (like even mario64) or older games. in that regard, breaking new ground can be cool and all, but it unless that novelty is utterly overwhelming you (ie: brainlet/child) there are other games to pick up and play that dont have such hurdles and inconveniences, that offer a much more refined experience.

oot has aged poorly, plain and simple.

>>11019054
How did you complete the jump if not understanding how the mechanics work? You're a walking contradiction anon. You're giving zelda fans a worse and worse reputation.

>>11019074
I am amazed that you have created this mental rivalry for yourself with people who like Zelda games because they're popular, that's a very interesting inferiority complex.

>>11019074
I'm just saying the game has you line up jumps so you can preform the exact gameplay ritual predesigned by the developers (bad design) and then the camera can't even consistently show you the character's footing to make this consistently doable (awful design).

>>11019037
shovelware has been a term for at least 15 years, if not more.

>>11019074
>You're giving zelda fans a worse and worse reputation.
the more you get them to articulate details instead of mindless, empty praise, the more apparent it becomes how retarded they actually are. and in that regard, for the most part its not zelda fans, its oot zealots. they arent capable of critical thought, only blind zealotry for their favorite game. they arent even really fans of the rest of the series, because the rest is just always SO much worse than their precious favorite game, oot. they've put it up on such a high pedestal that they cant even actually see it anymore, which only works to their benefit because if they cant see it, they cant be confronted with the reality of it. just like trannies that hate looking in the mirror, its the same level of mental illness and denial.

>>11019073
>oot has aged poorly, plain and simple.

>>11018907
>refinement of execution
Even then, what did modern games do in terms of execution? My experience is that games from next generations were even more limiting in terms of gameplay - restricting you from jumping or doing anything other than moving in a lot of cases, giving you scripted sequences etc.

>>11019125
Well they all copied Croc's control scheme which is just crazy to think it all started with one green little reptile, but the facts check out.

>>11019131
Is there a name for the phenomena of thinking British shovelware games shaped the gaming industry? It's a very distinctly /vr/ meme at this point.

>>11019107
Shovelware as a term is probably about 30 years old at the very least, if not more, and it doesn't mean "popular game I think isn't as good as people say it is," you faggot zoomer.

Shovelware pertains to compilation disks which are stuffed with a large quantity of software or other digital content, usually stuff which is free, or "free." Examples of this includes Wizardworks and their D-Zone line of discs, which were compilations of random Doom .wads they downloaded from the internet in droves, content which they didn't legally own in any sense or asked anyone for permission to use, and they did similar things for Heretic and Duke Nukem 3D. Other companies did it for other games, such as Diablo and Starcraft.
It would also include compilations which are packed full of free shareware programs and games, and overall, shovelware discs were the epitome of quantity over quality, as in like they just hurriedly shoveled shit onto discs without caring or checking anything, which sometimes meant including a lot of shit which just didn't fucking work, but they could at least advertise a big number on the cover.

>>11019135
Mario 64 was only possibly with a British programmer who gained his experience making British shovelware.

>>11019087
>(bad design)
funny how insufferable midwits are so quick to claim things are bad design to sound more intellectual when they clearly have no fucking clue what they are talking about. By the time you reach the part of your cherry-picked meme webm, it's reasonable to estimate how much space you have for the jump. You can even see in the webm that the player jumps backward to position themselves against the wall for this purpose.
If someone cherry-picked all the mildly rough edges on OoT you would be bawling like a baby.

>>11019156
Giles only made the 3D Mario head.

>>11019165
Giles added crucial 3d programming experience to a company that had none.
That's why he and other Brits without a single Japanese programmer made Star Fox.

>>11019187
https://youtu.be/xR4WNsPgh3M?feature=shared&t=97
Satoshi Nishiumi, quintessentially British.

>>11019207
>superfx staff
retard
https://youtu.be/xR4WNsPgh3M?feature=shared&t=41

>>11019214
The SuperFX chip and Star Fox are inseparable. Someone who worked on the SuperFX project "made" Star Fox by definition.

>>11019224
There's more to a staff than programmers, retard.

>>11019225
The people credited as "software support" are also programmers.

>>11019226
sounds more like IT than programming

>>11019236
Japanese programmers absolutely did work on Star Fox.

>>11019284
3d modeling isn't programming, retard.

>>11019286
You missed the part where he said another Jap worked on the game? He's referring to Hajime Yajima, credited as "Japanese Support". Everyone credited there is also a programmer.

>>11019295
He clearly says Star Fox 2, retard.
And no. support isn't programming.

The programmers are clearly credited under "Programmed by" and it doesn't include a single Japanese person.
Your cope is getting stupider and stupider.

>>11019305
Can you not read? He says he barely worked on 2, but then says he did work on "masked screen wipes" for the first game. What exactly do you think "support" means in this context?

>>11019308
Ah, that's me being stupid for once.
What does masked screen wipes even mean? Screen transitions?
What does helped mean? Did he test something? Did he offer advice? Did he calculate some shit?

Again, he's not credited as a programmer. Probably for a reason. Anything else is just cope.

>>11019318
>Again, he's not credited as a programmer
Credits are not the definitive word of god.

>>11019328
but a vague tweet of someone barely remembering something from over 20 years ago is?

>>11019338
When one of the developers says "he worked on this game" and the credits say he did, then yes I think he worked on the game even if the credits don't say the magic words of "programmer". It's safe to say your attempt to rewrite history has failed here.

>>11019343
He said he helped with one thing.
In what world does that mean he was a programmer for Star Fox?

>>11019349
You said there wasn't a single Japanese programmer on Star Fox. That has been clearly disproven at this point. Once again the anglowashing of gaming history evaporates under the slightest scrutiny.

>>11019365
Nigger, I'm going by the most official source possible.
You're the one trying to rewrite it with all kinds of ass pulls.

>>11015996
>The game is ridiculously easy even without accounting for the fact you can have four free resurrections
I agree with you that the game needs a hard mode combat mod or re-release somehow, but I've been taking a look at normalfags playing OoT for the first time on Twitch and YouTube and I'm outstounded at how they get stuck on the simplest of puzzles, do not get the combat even after reading Navi's hints and are actually afraid of taking any action.
The latter is something I notice in general when normalfags play retro games, they are afraid of taking action. Jumping platforms, engaging an enemy, chosing a path, anything scares them.

>>11019390
>I'm going by the most official source possible
While also operating under the assumption that "support" means "did nothing", even when the developer explains something they did.

>>11019396
Which was "helped", another word for "support", as in "not programming".
Neither he nor the credits say he was programmer for Star Fox.

>that the game needs a hard mode combat mod or re-release somehow
OoTfags really need to move the fuck on to playing Dark Souls or Souls cones or whatever already.
The Ultimate Trial hack came out and it makes rupees useful by limiting their drop rate while also encouraging you to not go hog wild during combat when going through the trial dungeons. Zelda was never about the combat anyways, yet you fags desperately want it to turn it into an action game.

Also post vids examples of normalfags being retarded. I need a good laugh.

>>11019550
>Zelda was never about the combat anyways
Zelda 1 was peak combat anyway.

Overrated trash, fortnite is much better fr

>>11019391
>outstounded
astounded

When people shit talk OoT and praise Zelda 1 it makes me feel like they're aliens. Zelda 1 is pretty basic aside from its exploration which isn't as free form as they say and has some pretty rough stuff.

I don't know why people seriously underrate just how adding a 3rd dimension changes the game and the puzzles so fundamentally

>>11019603
Mind you I'm the one who just praised Zelda 1, but I don't shit talk OoT either. I like both.

>>11019595
I honestly don't know how I mangled astounded that bad. I guess that's how bad their gameplay shocked me.

>>11019603
It changes them for the worse.

>>11019550
>Zelda was never about the combat anyways, yet you fags desperately want it to turn it into an action game.
Thing is, the OoT combat mechanics for the player have a lot of depth that just goes flat out unused, and the few enemies who would test them (Iron Knuckles, Dark Link) can be cheesed, negating any of it.

>vids
Eeeh ,I feel rather apprehensive, I don't want something like that one bookgirl reading manga for the first time and /a/ went after her in sheer anger to happen again. And it was a while back I don't remember the exact people's channels, a girl was reccomended to me and watching her play DKC is obnoxious

>>11019603
>I don't know why people seriously underrate just how adding a 3rd dimension changes the game and the puzzles so fundamentally
Oh it changes a ton. Of course the game is massively more complex. But that doesn't mean better. You can say LoZ is basic, but this is meaningless because it's not like OoT is just LoZ but better, it's a totally different game.
I'm not shitting on OoT ITT but compared to NES LoZ there's a LOT of bloat that comes from the emphasis on 3D. Just mindlessly walking through areas sucks up a lot of time.

>>11015941
FPBP

>>11019550
>OoTfags really need to move the fuck on to playing Dark Souls or Souls cones or whatever already.
>Zelda was never about the combat anyways

Lol. Zelda was always about the combat up til like LA. Souls letting you break through 99% of anything via lolframes makes Zelda's combat genuinely superior.

Still the best game in the series and it makes other Zelda fags seethe because their favorite game doesn’t stack up to OOT.

>>11015927
literally never shuts up about it

>11020135
You need to stop being obsessed with this archaic game and more action adventure games. It's not 1999 anymore, grandma.

>11020135
Zelda was never about the combat. It was about exploration and sense of discovery. Leave it to Zeldafags to misinterpret the series for what it is at its core.

>>11020384
dumb ocarina baby

>>11016486
I love SOTN, but it's arguably even less an RPG than OOT.
Maybe CRPGs make me biased, but I think you need a bit more than just character leveling and inventory items to be an RPG.
SOTN is vaguely on the level of Diablo in terms of roleplaying, ergo just about fuckall, which doesn't make either game bad, they're both favorites, but RPG is an abused word.

>>11016949
I disagree. First game is really not challenging, and it's almost a bit basic in some aspects of its gameplay, but it's very well constructed on a fundamental level, from game mechanics to map design. Doom 2 is built right on the first game, but it makes the gameplay MUCH more complex and deep by adding a lot of new enemies which do new things, supplementing the old monsters well and requiring new tactics from the player.

Final Doom then takes that gameplay to what was basically the limits of the time. Plutonia is designed with a fundamentally very strong understanding of how Doom 2 functions as a game, making incredibly good use out of how weapons and enemies function, featuring intense action requiring the player to have a good grasp on Doom 2. You can almost describe it as a horizontal Contra, and a large amount of the fan made stuff for classic Doom today is still strongly inspired and informed by Plutonia's gameplay.

Some of that is attributed to larger numbers of monsters, but that's not the whole story. Plutonia barely has more of them than the first game (circa 2900 if you don't count the later bonus episode,) with Plutonia featuring just slightly more than 3000 (with about 300 of them being in the more populated secret levels), compared to Doom 2's almost 3800. Plutonia uses fewer enemies in smarter and meaner ways, and when you have a good grasp of Doom 2, this becomes really fun.
Almost sadistic at times, but levels are mostly not very long so you never lose much progress on death.

>>11020873
>SOTN is vaguely on the level of Diablo in terms of roleplaying, ergo just about fuckall, which doesn't make either game bad, they're both favorites, but RPG is an abused word.
But Diablo is an action RPG.

>>11018907
>i am unable to perceive progress and differences
That's not the game aging.
That's the world aging.
The only time a game "ages" is if it relies on a permanent online connection or social function which ceases to exist down the line, or if the disc literally rots.

>>11015927
7/10 game

>>11019391
When a game doesn't challenge you, you never improve. This is a problem with all Nintendo games post 64, they never give you a challenge so your eyes glaze over, in boredom you just do the bare minimum of inputs tom prevent yourself from falling asleep and tank damage because it's at no cost for you, performing better won't make it a fun exercise, it'll solve itself anyway.

Maybe that's the bigest contribution of ocarin in gaming, made every game piss easy.

>>11021042
>This is a problem with all Nintendo games post 64
What challenging Nintendo game existed on the 64?

>>11020041
Mindlessly walking through areas? The fuck game are you playing? Zelda 1 has more mindless walking too
>>11021042
Games don't need to be challenging to be fun
OoT is pretty hard anyway. I can't beat a stalfos and phantom Ganon is tough

>Xmas 1998
>sun going down on a chilly day
>run walk to tge lgs to pick up my reserved gold cart
>plebs move aside in awe
>get home in time for dinner Xmas eve
>sitting with the lights off, xmas lights only
>everybody in the living room looking at the tv
>ps1 fanatic sitting there seething silently as we approach spidor battle in the tree
>snow flakes gently fall
>all of it gone forever now

>>11015941
biased fp, it is the greatest

>>11015927
It's easily one of the Zelda games of all time.

>>11015927
It sucks dog farts out of a cat's asshole

>>11015927
I think it's the best adventure game of it's time. I mostly enjoy it for the aestetics of the adult dungeons and the music which is pretty phenomenal for a 32 mb cartridge. I'm not in the camp that considers it to be teh best game evaaaar but it is an impressive technical achievement that led to other great games like majora.

>>11021070
Zelda 1 has very little mindless walking. At the very least you are evading enemies. You don't perceive it because you're incapable of detached analysis.

>11020845
I'll take that as a concession.

>>11021374
NES Zelda is like 90% combat or avoiding combat. You are an idiot.

>>11020384
>>11021374
You do realize that you initially responded to someone whose favorite game is OoT? The basic point that Zelda STARTED as a heavily combat oriented series, even if it was always about exploration, seems to have gone completely over your head.

>>11015927
It's release marked the moment I knew i had outgrown Nintendo.

>>11021489
Same

>>11021057
SMBLL and even the original and 3 can be challenging, Zelda 2 is infamous for being quite challenging and different, Metroid filters people to this day.
"Nintendo hard" used to be a term in the 80s and early 90s.

>>11022167
>"Nintendo hard" used to be a term in the 80s and early 90s.
Haha, I remember those unauthorized Nintendo themed porno movies. My favorite was the one where Princess Toadstool gets railed by like 30 plumbers.

>>11022174
Did something go wrong in your brain where you think saying stuff like this is funny

>>11015927
Still makes people seethe

>11021424
>11021448
Agree to disagree.

>>11022380
25 years on and you really should be done with that.

Anyway Edge was referring to last century, so that headline isn't such a mind bending exaggeration even for a die hard hater, keeping in mind that mag headlines were the 20th century's clickbait and not meant to be taken as strictly factual.

Does /vr/ pronounce OoT as "oh-oh-tee" or "oot" like a Scottish or Canadian person would say "out"

>>11022738
Oh Oh Tee in my mind whe reading it, but when I talk I do say Ocarina of Time.

>Telling autists to stop being obsessed with trying to mangle an old game for its outdated worth and move on is a "troll post"
/vr/annie took that personally despite it being a genuine statement.