/vr/ - Retro Games

>>10990712
Overpriced port of a shit game.

>>10991217
what's your favorite shmup anon?

>>10990712

I understand the best shmup players in the world (and their cult) love this game but I find it's just overly difficult. Just too difficult. I appreciate the design, art, music etc.

>>10991217
filtered. tell me you've never 1cc'd a shmup without telling me you've never 1cc'd a shmup.

>>10991626
Same. Everything about it is great except actually playing it past the first two stages.

>>10991730
I've 1CC'ed like 50 shmups at this point. Still don't care for CAVE shit

>>10991626
>>10991783
The game is basically unplayable until you sit down and memorize some simple routes for most stages but once you do the game will become like crack and you'll obsess over it for weeks

>>10992015
Forgot to mention I'm a low function autist and this will only apply if you are as well

>>10992046
Low-functioning autism is like guys who drool all over themselves and can't solve a captcha
They can't really play games

>>10992052
Perfect fit for braindead shmups

>>10992056
Never understood people who purposefully enter threads for things they don't like

>>10990712
Both a fantastic, and a disapointing port all at the same time.
It does not have all of the features available for Black Label, it's main focus is surprisingly on the White Label version (even though WL can be played in BL...).
Also the training mode is really good and robust.... but really awful at the same time. It gives you a ton of tools for learning the game, but it doesn't give you just a straight up "play this level with this ship".
Its really bizarre.
I was expecting a M2 port to supersede playing the game in MAME/FB Neo since typically M2 ports are the best of the best, but this one kind of doesn't cut it.
Its extremely accurate, but thats not really a selling point when MAME already has been doing DOJ perfectly for years already.
The new arrange modes are fun at least.

I wish I had the spatial awareness for shmups.

Most of the time I move to avoid an oncoming cluster of bullets and end up just moving right into the bullets I was trying to avoid.

>>10992123
Just takes practice.
But a word of advice, don't watch the bullets. Thats a trap.
You watch the spaces that the bullets don't occupy, this is important since this is the place you need to be.

>>10990712
its neat
i preordered for the goodies
i play the arcade pcb more
but for a quick and dirty on an actual gaming monitor its not that bad
its a "good" port but not 1:1 with the original

some neat modes and features if you are down the autism rabbithole but most normies will skip

>>10992123
its just practice anon

>>10991863
>obvious lie
if you've 1cc'd "like 50" shmups and can't 1cc a Cave game, you're trash and have no legacy skill from playing the other donpachi games.

Cave games grew in difficulty with their player base. Crying about a later entry is just a huge sign that you either haven't been playing them, or that you have and can't keep up with the difficulty curve.

>>10992123
shmups have nothing to do with spatial awareness. you just look up a walkthrough and memorize the routes.

>>10990712
>Thoughts?
Muchi Muchi Pork WHEN??!??!?!?!?!?!??!

>>10991783
>doesn't like a cave game after the first two stages

but the first two stages in most Cave games are piss easy to make normies who saw the pretty lasers in the attract screen feel like they didn't waste their money because they at least can get two stages in

>>10990712
There's a ton of content in it. Is it worth it? I have no idea I pirated it on switch and therefore it was free for me.
I'm not generally good enough to appreciate DOJ though. But I do know the pro danmaku fans consider it to be the greatest cave shmup or at the very least in the conversation

>>10992314
it's not about difficulty. CAVE games, and bullet slop in general, are just boring as hell.

>tiny misleading hitbox for your ship and the bullets
>crippling slowdown
>little ship variety with minor changes between them
>autistic, restrictive, artificial score system
>giant clouds of bullet vomit that are highly restrictive of movement and routing
>giant screen-wide player shot that gives little incentive for pointblanking or even positioning
>zero stage hazards
>stage backgrounds plays no to minimal role in gameplay; could just be replaced by a black void and barely lose anything.
>no powerups or resource management; even bombs are primarily only ever used as a reaction panic button
yep, must be CAVEslop

>>10992320
I have the 360 version and its funny because it randomly slows down really fucking hard and stays that way until you reset the game
based way to get a free clear

>>10992353
Get laid immediately.

>>10992353
Why are you in every single thread with the exact same copy/pasta shit like clockwork?
Why do you have to shit up every fucking shmup thread?
Were you wronged by some discord personality so you're compelled to be a retard here?

>>10992482
Shut the fuck up, not your hugbox you sensitive little faggot. You (or someone) kept pestering over and over about how CAVE is the greatest and it's a skill issue if you don't like their games.

They made one style of game and ran it into the ground repeatedly and autists lose their fucking minds over them and their retreaded copy pasted garbage.

>>10992434

>>10992582
Nice. Keep bumping the CAVEchad thread (for free)

>>10992319
>people actually play shmups like this

>>10992594
honestly a lot closer to reality than nonplayers who think it's all about just reaction dodging

>>10992060
Each (You) gives them a minute fraction of the feeling they’d have gotten out of one solid hug from their absentee father.

>>10992128
>You watch the spaces that the bullets don't occupy
That's only possible by watching the bullets.

>>10992230
This lady was impaled in the back with multiple wires and fuel pumps.
Is she gonna be okay?

>>10990712
>bullet hell
yawn

>>10990712
I haven't played it but M2 rarely misses.

>>10992353
This is “Sonic is bad because you have to jump sometimes” levels of nonsense.

>>10992931

>>10992775
It's ok she's a robot

>>10992605
You shouldn't look up a guide for a game unless you're stuck or trying to play at a high level. Both of these should only be done at like 20+ hours of a shmup, else you're a pussy or a faggot

>>10992771
You don't get it obviously. But practice it.

>>10992320
So many cool games need to be available for legal purchase. Give me some harmful park or keio flying squadron please. I dont even think air zonk is available for cryin out loud.

The game is great but it's impossible to have a decent conversations about it (or shooters in general) online, especially this board

>>10991730
Don't talk like an underaged TikTok girl on the 40+ board.

>>10993052
How many space ships has she crashed?

>>10990712
>>10992230

>>10992230
>its a "good" port but not 1:1 with the original
Its 1:1
DoJ has been perfect timing emulated for more then a decade.

>>10994162
the port runs at 60fps instead of the native 59.1fps, so emulation on a VRR monitor is preferable.

>>10994203
Did some looking around since I always knew PGM hardware to be a flat 60hz (or something close like 59.9), but you're right, it is almost a full frame offset which means unless you're doing VRR with a compatible monitor you'll have some amount of frame pacing to deal with.

>>10994110
Do you make your own routes? Do you play DOJ for survival or score?

I buy these ports and put 5-10 hours into them, then it comes time to actually learn the games and I stop. Maybe I'm weird but from my experience it takes 5-10+ hours of pure memorization before you can really play for survival, and even longer for basic score routes. Doing full shmup runs is depressing when you know its impossible for you to clear the game, but committing to 10 hours of save state practice to get into a game also sucks ass. I have multiple 1ccs and it feels anticlimactic putting so much practice into a game just to clear it one time and then stop. I think that's why 1ccers are the smallest demographic in the shmup community. Scoring is ultimately the only thing that makes a shmup fun long term. But it requires such a big investment of time/effort that most people never do it.

I guess fighting games are similar. Normies go through fighting games every 3 months because they never engage on a deeper level. To them it's just a casual thing so they can swap between melty, blazblue, strive, etc. no problem

>>10994235
I'm not the anon you're responding to but,
> Maybe I'm weird but from my experience it takes 5-10+ hours of pure memorization before you can really play for survival
Why are you not routing in your brain the second you first play? One can play for survival, fun, and score all at the same time. They all beget one another.
I always just quarter feed and beat the game and note how many continues it took me to do it. Then I think about the game's patters, etc, and see if I understand them well enough to clear the game again with at least one less credit. And then again, and again. Till I'm down to no more then 2cc clear, ONLY THEN do I actually spend time in training, save stating, etc, to aim for a 1cc, and thats assuming I enjoy the game enough to stick around for it. That 10 hours invested? Thats usually what it takes to to get to this point, often less for many games.
I always make my own routes and only ever look up any if I'm totally stumped on a section.
These games are in part puzzles you're attempting to resolve. If you actually want to 1cc, don't just go in feeding quarters, try to actually solve the puzzle that is the game.

>>10994235
Yeah I play them my own pace for my own enjoyment. Pretty much to wind down after the day.

I play for survival but also try to beat my own scores each attempt. I'm actually rather bad in games in general but improving and making progress is incredibly rewarding. I'm currently trying to get my route down for stage 4 since that's where I usually run out of lives on my runs. Nailing down my route for surviving stage 3 recently felt great. And I know eventually getting the 1all is going to feel even better.

I've now been playing DOJ well over 50 hours at this point between Switch port and mame on my laptop.

I watch some replays but I mostly set down my own routes while practicicing since I'm a slow learner, and I ind it harder and less fun to just copy other peoples gameplay.

These games are just fun for me since, while they demand heavy investment over time, they're incredibly easy to just pick up and play compared to many other genres.

>>10994543
There are areas in DOJ where I can save state before an area and play 50+ attempts without understanding how I'm supposed to no miss no bomb it. Obviously most areas in the game (1st loop anyway) are solvable with a tiny bit of thought but I get annoyed when I don't know any areas. I do make my own routes but some stuff is just oddly hard and seems to demand save states

>>10994942
The reason I recommend the method I mentioned is that it forces you to basically repractice easily stages, you can't ignore them.
People fall in to a trap of practicing the last two stages of hard games and go "I've got this" and then botch a run at the second level boss 50% of the time.
Pay attention to the mobs and their patterns. Almost every mob thats in the late stages show up in the earlier ones, and give clues on how to lead out their patterns. Getting gud at early stages builds the foundation for getting gud at late stages.
This goes for most every game from Cave anyways, mileage will very with games from other companies.

>>10994954
The main pattern I see with danmaku routing is just, you have to kill enemies ASAP as they spawn or else survival becomes almost impossible. In DDP this means toggling between shot and laser and memorizing which ones come out where. Maybe my experience is different but in later stages the timing gets stricter and tighter until you're forced into a narrow window you find with trial and error

Obviously practice in general is important, even on early stages. I just find later stages tend to have a long and tedious learning curve, but I guess you can shorten that curve over time which is what you mean. I did always wonder how pros could learn games like DDP when doing full runs was your only means of practice, maybe once you get to pro level you can figure out late game routes in only 2-3 attempts, idk

>>10995046
>The main pattern I see with danmaku routing is just, you have to kill enemies ASAP as they spawn or else survival becomes almost impossible
That applies much more to classic shmups

>>10995046
>you have to kill enemies ASAP
This it self can be a trap if you focus on it too much.
Yes, clearing dangerous mobs is critical, but think about it in this hypothetical. If I'm on the left side of the screen busy killing something that is only moderately dangerous and I know something will be spawning very soon on the right side that is way more dangerous, it might be in your advantage to be already on the right side to kill that mob ASAP and worry about the other ones afterwords. Sure, now you've got to deal with both bullet patterns coming at you, but you'll be doing less dodging+traveling with the dangerous mob on screen since it will be dead sooner. But you'll need to think it though and figure out which situation is harder to dodge in the long run. Its all part of solving the puzzle that is routing.

>>10995056
Meant to also say, the opposite can be true as well, where ignoring the big scary mob to focus on the small trash can be the correct thing to do. A good example of this is stage 3 of DoJ.
During the second half the the stage with the floating towers, there are a lot of trash mobs that flow in from the side of the screen while around the same time a medium sized mob with a much larger pattern are also on the screen. The carpeting of the small mobs in their dense numbers are actually WAY more dangerous then the larger shotgunning mob. Its actually best to clear the small trash in that situation then focus on the larger one.

>>10994235
>>10994543
>>10994679
>>10994942
>>10994954
>>10995046
>>10995050
>>10995056
>>10995062
Also this idea of learning shmups properly is just a load of bullshit nonplayer cope and and another excuses for why they can't improve or why they can't learn the genre.

Just play the fucking games and you WILL learn just by clearing foundational games like Tiger-Heli and Sonic Wings. You literally cannot no-miss clear these games without learning fundamental shmup mechanics. It will absolutely force you to learn these or fail.

>>10995056
I understand the basics of routing and stuff. But having to play certain save states dozens of times until something comes together feels wrong. I honestly took 80 hours to 1cc Ikaruga which is probably way too much. Like I suggested before, maybe on the fly routing is a distinct skillset that develops further as you play more shmups. Not in the sense of hyper/bomb here but in understanding how X part plays based on what enemies show up when. To me it feels like trial and error but maybe its because I'm just unskilled

>>10995068
>this idea of learning shmups properly is just a load of bullshit
>here is how you learn shmups properly
Retard

>>10995072
My point is that playing and clearing games where you can't rely on crutches and safety nets will force you to learn fundamental mechanics. Stop bullshitting about all these theoreticals and what the best way to learn is and all this other nonsense and just practice the fucking games and you will force yourself to adapt and learn to succeed.

>>10995071
>I honestly took 80 hours to 1cc Ikaruga which is probably way too much.
Not really. Ikaruga is one of the more over the top route extreme games in that there is practically only one correct route, and due to this its a mega time sinker to 1cc it.
Legit, if you can 1cc Ikaruga you can 1cc (most) any game. Just got to practice.

>>10995078
>My point is that playing and clearing games where you can't rely on crutches and safety nets will force you to learn fundamental mechanics.
Sure, but everything I stated regarding routing are things you'd be doing in those games as well. There is zero theory about it, its fucking practice.
I'm not even saying it isn't a good idea to play some older dad shmups to get some foundational, it IS a good idea. You're just being a fucking retard about it.

>>10994235
To your last point, problem with DOJ is that chaining IS survival whereas in DDP it was optional.

>>10995078
>Using your brain to think about the game is a crutch
TOP FUCKING KEK

>>10995083
>problem with DOJ is that chaining IS survival
Really? I didn't know this

>>10995092
Sure it is anon due to hypers
Chaining = Hyper meter = more damage and more opportunities to bullet cancel at needed moments

>>10995096
Oh, right. I guess if you abuse hypers technically it's way easier than DDP right? I don't recall anything that made late game DDP much easier, the game punishes you harshly for any resource use

>>10995103
Not at all.
DoJ is notably harder then DDP even with the hypers. You're never really abusing them, since the game is designed in a way that pushes you to have them and spend them at opportune moments. There are some segments in the second loop that are near impossible if you don't do this, particularly when playing WL. If you don't have a hyper to spend then you're going to use a bomb, so you loose out on that resource. DoJ is all about chaining hypers, and knowing where it is optimal to build and optimal to spend them. Its part of the puzzle.

>>10995113
I honestly feel that loop 1 of both games are comparable in difficulty, and I don't really use hypers. It's been ages since I played DDP 1-5 but it felt as bad as DOJ 1-5 honestly

>>10995115
1st loop? Yeah, I'd agree. DoJ's patterns are generally harder then DDP, but you do get hypers to balance things out.
2nd loop is where things get really fucking nutty.
Also DDP is the best game Cave has ever done. Its a shame they've never made a port since the PSX/Saturn versions.

>>10995090
That's... not what I said at all. Bombs only used as a panic button or dying with little consequence can allow you to just bypass sections without learning anything. That's why I said no-miss clear, because you can't just brute force without learning.

>>10995123
DDP definitely has something special that you don't feel in the sequels. Hard to put into words though. I think as DDP went on, the spectacle increased and the mechanics got more complicated but the level design and patterns peaked in DDP. In DFK and SDOJ I feel they just ran out of ideas and threw shit at the wall, there is no consistency. The original levels all have a sort of flow and rhythm to them but the later games feel randomly designed and it shows. DDP and DOJ have a hypnotizing quality to them, but later DDP games are awkward and it's hard to get sucked into them.

>>10994162
wrong
slowdown makes the hectic parts actually playable on jamma
>>10994203
the irony is emu players and port players might be BETTER than original hardware blacklabel fags
as emu usually are playing the game slightly faster and without proper slowdown timings

i dont want to play on fast forward or 2x speed
my pandora pcb run the cave shmups so fucking horribly its comical

>>10992582
so your reaction to someone annoying you one time about cave games is to autistically go into cave threads and shit it up and annoying everyone.
yes this is perfect sound logical stuff to think and you arent unhinged or retarded in any manner what so ever. /sarcasm

>>10995252
I'm talking about in this specific thread, try following the reply chain before butting in like a tard.

I wonder what produces a cave hater. Rarely does one studio come along and do a genre so well that almost all other studios look amateur. Ive given plenty of psikyo, taito etc. shmups a try but they just aren't nearly as good

>>10995342
There are lots of Japanese players that play shmups from a wide variety of devs. It's just that western secondaries all flock to CAVE tranmaku.

>>10995342
Dude, shut the fuck up. People who jerk off Cave endlessly disrupt threads in the same way as the Cave hating retard.
Like, just play shmups. All of them.

>>10995342
Treasure mogged them though, desu

WHEN THE FUCK IS FUTARI GETTING PORTED, CAVE

>>10992353
Just the point about stage backgrounds is so hilariously wrong on it's own that this must be bait. Please let us talk about shmoops in peace sir

>>10992314
>if you've 1cc'd "like 50" shmups and can't 1cc a Cave game

console shmups are easy.

bump

>>10995989
I just want Espgaluda :(
everybody seems to hate it though so guess that's never happening