/vr/ - Retro Games

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>>10807751
It's crazy to think that it was released a whole month after Doom II which made Doom 1 obsolete already. What were they thinking?

>>10807751
It's coded for a RISC CPU rather than x86 like the original one. The levels also have more compact geometry for better optimization.

>>10808681
Its weird how the SNES port had more faithful level geometry than the Jaguar port

>>10808721
>A zoomer finds out something that's a common knowledge for the first time and proceeds to post it everywhere starting with "weird how..." or "funny how..." or "cool fact:..." as if people don't know about this already.
Reddit behaviour.

>>10808740
No retard I'm actually old enough to have owned the SNES port back in the 90's

>>10808721
It doesn't, really. It's coded by a different guy so he made concessions in other parts instead. He's a far more skilled coder than Carmack though.

>>10808764
>Randy is far more skilled coder than Carmack
You need a source for this one, buddy. Randy was good at assembly, probably better than Carmack, but he never made anything groundbreaking and moved the industry forward. Carmack was a graphics/rendering pioneer. Completely different set of skills.

>>10808797
>moved the industry forward
>graphics/rendering pioneer
How? 3dfx did, Carmack was only writing API for verite and voodoo. He wasn't the first person to do that, but the API became popular since Quake was a popular game. Meanwhile, Randy invented 32-bit console emulator for the PC and dreamcast. He's the true trailblazer for the emulation community. He also managed to make Quake run on GBA while Carmack got stressed merely from having to write a Quake API for the verite card.

>>10808721
Is it weird though? Really? Is it really weird that two totally different development teams working to port the game to two completely different systems choose different options to optimize the game and improve performance?

To me that doesn't sound weird, it sounds like the most banal thing imaginable.

>>10808797
Carmack-stans love overselling their boys abilities. Carmack made some decent 3d engines in his time but admits himself he only wrote in C/C++ and depended on dev environments like visual studio. Randy was writing psx emulators in assembly language that could run on a Dreamcast ffs, the man wrote sony's emulators for ps1 that was then used in PSP and the PS2 slim models. Carmack made some famous games, but Randy is a whole other level of autistic super powers in the world of coding.

>>10808740
>basedjak edit
Clearly you're not over 20

>>10808827
Anon, Carmack made engines and rendering techniques that were widely adopted by the industry and are still used to this day. Linden skill was optimizing existing stuff to run on toasters. You may argue that assembler coding requires genius level skills but there are much more coders like Linden in the world than coders like Carmack. Dozens of people who write emulators, people who code "impossible" ports to old consoles etc. None of them are inventors or pioneers. Yu Suzuki was on Carmacks level but he had military grade 3D tech to bring his vision to life.
Like I said, different set of skills. If Linden was so good why did he never made anything really groundbreaking?

>>10808841
Carmack was crazy good at optimization too though. He wrote SNES Wolf3D in three weeks without prior experience with SNES hardware and without the need for special chips. Doom engine uses a lot of clever optimizations as well. Basically Carmack was skilled at both optimization and future proofing while Randy was only good at the former.

>>10808823
On the SNES you'd thing the first thing they'd start cutting back on would be the level geometry

>>10808841
>why did he never made anything really groundbreaking?
Anon, Randy Linden literally invented emulators, or close to that. Before Bleem, he made a C64 emulator for the Amiga, it's considered one of the first emulators in existence. He's a pioneer. He also worked on Xbox's backwards compatibility. In fact, Microsoft originally wanted the Xbox to emulate other consoles, that's how he got a job at microsoft.
>Yu Suzuki
Saturn failed. He designed the most convoluted console to work with.

>>10808858
Randy didn't optimize Doom for the SNES, he rewrote the entire thing from the ground up. He learned how the game data systems work and wrote his own engine that did everything differently.
>snes wolf 3D
It's a pretty bad port. Not terribly hard to make either, SNES already had mode 7 graphics. Carmack simply made the VRAM store double buffered background graphics and used mode 7 do all of the draw commands without making big changes to the game code.

>>10808879
>Anon, Randy Linden literally invented emulators, or close to that. Before Bleem, he made a C64 emulator for the Amiga, it's considered one of the first emulators in existence. He's a pioneer.
Emulation first appeared in the 60s. And by the way making something old running on a newer hardware is hardly "pioneering". Unless you mean the latest decade, full of "remasters" and emulated collections, then yeah, emulation is a big part of modern gaming industry.
>Saturn failed. He designed the most convoluted console to work with.
What does Saturn have to do with Yu Suzuki? He made cutting edge arcade hardware. Super scalers in the 80s, Model 1, 2 and 3 series in the 90s. All highly successful.
>Randy didn't optimize Doom for the SNES, he rewrote the entire thing from the ground up. He learned how the game data systems work and wrote his own engine that did everything differently.
Nobody here said that he ported Doom engine. Making such engine run on SuperFX in the first place requires lots of optimization regardless of whether you port it or make it from the ground up. And that SNES engine is quite simplified by the way. It has no physics simulation for example, other than collision detection.
>Not terribly hard to make either, SNES already had mode 7 graphics.
Wolf3D port has the first BSP implementation in a videogame ever. And mode 7 can't scale sprites or raycast textures on walls. It can only scale or rotate a single background plane which is not enough for a raycaster game. Mode 7 is only used for pixel doubling in Wolf3D - the game screen is rendered into a low res buffer which is then treated as a single background plane and upscaled to full screen with the help of mode 7, similar to how many PS3 and later era games ran at sub-HD internal resolution and then were upscaled to HD before applying hud elements on top.

>>10808879
Lol, are you serious?
>worked on Xbox's backwards compatibility
Aka wrote the emulator to run older system games on a newer system whilst having full access to the xbox architecture documentation from MS
>He designed the most convoluted console to work with.
Yu Suzuki didn't design saturn
>mode 7 graphics
Learn what mode 7 is and how exactly is it used in the Wolfenstein 3D port first

>>10808721
I don't find SNES Doom port that impressive. It runs on a 20Mhz graphics accelerator which renders polygons into a framebuffer before converting it to native planar SNES mode.
Technically it's a more advanced and efficient way of running Doom than a 486 CPU which does everything in software and just brute forces the game via sheer CPU speed and specific optimization. In case of SuperFX it's just underpowered to match PC version of Doom in quality because there is only so many polygons that it can render at a given framerate. There is no "hidden potential" to tap. Randy Linden's biggest achievement here is bothering with creating a 3D engine from scratch at all.
Wolfenstein 3D runs on a 3.58Mhz CPU in a planar mode, has much less input lag and working circle strafe. More impressive.

>>10808764


Highly doubtful.

Carmack's approach to Doom's code was a tiny bit revolutionary as he only did the crucial parts in assembly and the rest, via a very good compiler for its day, in C.

>>10808858

Carmack was above most people back then and most likely is still today but the technology makes it less obvious now.

>>10807751
Program for the hardest supply to the easier.

Carmack offered his C compiler he made specifically for the jaguar, atari didnt bite. He never did release his engineering for it either. The machine shows its damn capable just a bunch of old farts who didnt get it ruining an opportunity.

>>10808740
>Fairly normal post
>AHHHH ZOOMERS REDDIT ZOOMERS REDDIT AHHHHHHHHH

>>10808865
this. he had a point

>>10808858
>without the need for special chips
That's incorrect, doom features the Super-FX 2

>>10809497
the bit you're quoting was about wolfenstein 3d. wolf 3d did not use superfx

>>10809545
My bad

>>10808721
SNES port looks like shit. How anyone thought it was passable to look at that brown should be hung.

You only need to play the ps1 and pc version.
Everything else is unnecessary.

>>10808827
>depended on dev environments like visual studio
what does the dev environment have to do with his ability? do you think some mouthbreather who autistically builds machine language programs with a hex editor or machine code monitor is an intrinsically more skilled than someone who uses standard tooling?

>>10809841
As someone who is actually a programmer, yes

>>10809884
Fizzbuzzing on /g/ doesn't make you a programmer

>>10807751
That's the power of early 90's HRT, sweetie!

I like the remixing of the original levels, especially for the PS1 version.

Who the fuck is Randy? Pitchford?

>>10810301
Linden

>>10807751
Smaller CPU instruction set.

>>10808650
Consolefags didn't even know Doom II existed.

https://files.catbox.moe/w3jae8.zip

heres some patches to the original doom rom for jaguar i got some time ago.
It has strafe buttons and one button rotation for guns, but messes with the hud. Im not sure if thats fixed on hardware or if its an emulator thing. And a networking patch which fixes the drop outs on hardware apparently.

Also when playing the doom rom in bigpemu, set pipeline emulation to enabled and blitter speed to slowest. Its pretty close, imp balls still got too much speed.

>>10808740
I look like this and say this.

Actually if you want to just straight up check the port, use calico which is a source port or something. But people have been actively hacking the source code with tonnes of maps and mods for ages at expos and conventions and stuff. A new and improved doom1/2 or something has been meaning to come out for ages.

When games dont have frame rate/routine caps and relies on the system performance as much as it can, emulation gets shot in the foot. It happens a bit with these 3D games and the emulator, got to play with the speed settings to get it closer. Other than that, the BIGP emulator is a fucking piece of work, privately funded stuff but a proper unit of engineering.

>>10808894
>Emulation first appeared in the 60s
Just like BSP then. Sweet.
>And by the way making something old running on a newer hardware is hardly "pioneering".
Reading a science paper that was coincidentally published in 1993 and copying its methods is hardly pioneering either. Before that paper, the BSP technique was considered too demanding for real time rendering on a 486 CPU.
>Unless you mean the latest decade
So you're saying he's ahead of his time?
>He made cutting edge arcade hardware. Super scalers in the 80s, Model 1, 2 and 3 series
I see. He made some impressive stuff, but considering he did it a couple of years after the golden age of arcades had well ended, there's nothing to really compare his works to. Nobody tried to make an ambitious arcade game anymore after the huge financial flop that was I Robot. While other arcade machine devs were budget starved, ie Taito cabinets still used Z80 CPUs for fucks sake, Suzuki got an unlimited resource from Sega. The system was handled by dual M68K and the super scaler, a monstrous board with 16 processors in it which really dwarfed I Robot's M6809 + 4*4-bit bitslice processor board. Not saying he's not a genius, but he's not the mythical genius or whatever you may think.
>And that SNES engine is quite simplified by the way. It has no physics simulation for example, other than collision detection.
A necessary concession as the SuperFX was essentially just a graphics DSP with a few more instructions. It's not even a true RISC chip.

>>10807751
>hmm should I make a game from the ground up since they won't give me the source code of the PC version, or should I just use the jaguar version as a base since we have the source code?????

>>10811002
>source code released in 1997
What was the GBA port excuse then?

>>10808650
They couldn't even fit Doom I on the cartridge