/vr/ - Retro Games

it didn't
/thread

You had to be there to know.

yeah ok let's see you adding a dimension to your world and see how well you handle it then

The great filter spares none.

>>10767083
weird facial animations and terrible localization. the actual gameplay is good.

>>10767087
Be where?

>>10767176
There.

>>10767186
Here? You mean here?

>>10767083
They struggled with an STI for a few years

Most games struggled when they transitioned to 3D.

>>10767195
lol

>>10767083
He didn't. Sonic Adventure is one of the best games ever made. No amount of content creator outrage is going to change that.

>>10767083
Sonic Adventure captured 2D Sonic in 3D quite well, Sonic's control is stellar, same goes for the sequel, it's only in Heroes that control really took a turn for the worst, though level design was still good for what it was. Shadow and Sonic '06 was when they really dropped the ball, but by then Sonic had already transitioned to 3D and was successful enough to have an entire new segment to the fanbase, the NGC kids.

It's common for most Sonic fans to say that they either got into the franchise with Sonic 2 on the Genesis, or Sonic Adventure 2 on Game Cube.

Also, after Shadow and '06 sucked, we got the boost formula with solid and beloved titles, so again Sonic pulled 3D off quite well, after that Lost World and Forces were average, and then Fronties was another solid reinvention. Sonic's always had quality titles in 3D for us to enjoy.

>>10767083
bad 2d games make bad 3d games. its time to stop pretending like sonic was ever good

Same as Mario 64: 3d sucks for certain types of games, including platforming.

>WAA MARIO 64 WAS GREAT
image

>>10767678
Have you tried the Game Gear games? Some people prefer Sonic 1 SMS over the Genesis version it seems

>>10767137
Other games didn't even have facial animation when this was released.

I dont thinking did. People who say that are not comparing it to how well other games did. Mario for instance stopped being a platformer about tight obstacle courses. There is very little tricky jumping in 64 and most of it sucks.

Bombeeman became this slow paced walking game that also lost its tightness.

The entire beat em up genre was shit in 3D until devil may cry.

Contra had 2 shitty games made by westerners.

Castlevania couldn't get jumping right and just became resident evil.

>>10767681
Mario 64 was, and still is great though. And so is is Sonic Adventure.
I dont know why you fags always need to fight over the two of them. It's not the 90s anymore, it costs chump change to buy a device that can run both games now.

>>10767083
>Why did sonic-ACK!

>>10767747
They fight over them because they are bored. uninteresting people and the excitement of internet arguing is a high point for them. They dont argue over anything clever because they are boring people with no cultured or high iq takes. So they just argue over a subject they are all familiar with. If they cant find one they will just di something stupid like make a 300 reply thread on a twitter screen cap or a single line from a 90s gaming magazine. Many have not even played both domic and mario and just repeat things because the argument is the reason itself.

Does anyone else really like the 1 models?
The art and fmvs imply they're probably supposed to look like they do in SA2/DX to begin with, but the models are like a pleasing half step between that and their Genesis era proportions

>>10767747
Probably the most sensible post in the thread

>>10767767
>amiga demoscene programmer
>technically impressive
>mediocre gameplay
many such cases

>>10767192
sovl...

They didn't let Amusement Vision take a crack at it, despite them clearly being the talented dev team.

he don't know where to go

Because Sonic is FAST and 3D is for slow garbage like Mario, whose worst enemy still remains the camera and not any ingame enemy.

>>10767747
>It's not the 90s anymore, it costs chump change to buy a device that can run both games now.
And the best part is that many of us likely already own a device that can do it, a smartphone, PC, laptop, tablet, etc... it's a great time to love retro video games, both Nintendo and SEGA aswell.

>>10767767
Boring, yet cozy game.
10/10 would download and play on sega channel in 2 separate parts again

>>10768090
its very likely the FMV's were designed 'after' Sonic Adventure 1 was largely finished.

Because of his speed, it does not lend itself very well to platforming in 3d, combat, etc.
The parts that are fast are just on rails sections and those are not very engaging.
He's too fast for his own good to work well in 3d.

the closer you come to a simulation of reality the more often gameplay premises fall apart. something moving extremely fast in 3d is actually really hard to reconcile with the traditional platformer.

>>10768537
Sonic has the right idea. The "traditional platformer" in 3d is pretty boring. The precision of the 2d platformer is what makes it fun and you lose that in 3d. Going fast is the right idea, but Sonic fucks it up because the 3d games are heavily on rails and honestly kind of low tier in design and execution.

>>10767083
Someone please post the Izuka quote where he said that Mario 64 confused him and he didn’t know where to go, and didn’t even finish the first level

>>10768446
>>10768537
These, I'm replaying Sonic Heroes (Game Cube version) and the high speed gameplay makes it hard to maneuvre, especially in the special stages.

>>10767747
>Sonic Adventure is still great
Umm...no? Put Mario 64 up against all the best 3D platformers that have come up until this point in 2024 and it still holds up. Do the same for Sonic Adventure and it crumbles. It looks like a joke if you compare it to modern games. SM64 doesn't.

>>10767664
I imagine SEGA's restructure during Heroes and their high turnover rate since played a part in Sonic Team trying to reinvent Sonic over and over, plus a director who keeps looking towards other (mainly Nintendo) franchises and gimmicks rather than trying to understand what worked in previous Sonic games.

The resulting problem is that, despite so many 3D Sonic titles, if you mention "Sonic in 3D" to someone, you'd have no solid consensus of what the fuck that actually means.

Critics once again touted Frontiers as "a step in the right direction" as they did with Generations and Lost World before it but uhhh do we know ST are actually going to follow up and evolve on that gameplay style as opposed to reinventing or chasing yet another trend?

It's easy to say "Y is good" or "X sucks" but until the series iterates on some foundation on a consistent basis, it's never going to reach the mass acclaim that Mario et al. enjoy.

>>10768446
I think more large and open-ish levels like Beta Windy Valley would've helped in regards to Adventure. Iizuka stated that RAM was the problem at the time so levels had to be streamlined. I would guess it's not an issue anymore so it sucks that they've never attempted the Adventure style again since the botched attempt in 06.

>>10768609
no dude, sonic adventure art direction on his original not shitted version (dreamcast) is a very beautiful game even today and in general the momentum based gameplay with his different focus to generate specific physics to specialize on certain type of 3d movement is some of the best gameplay and it holds up really well as mario 64, in general sa gave with his gameplay a perfect transition of sonic into 3d and denying this is ludicrous and based around bias and denying things which even if it got increased by the shit ports it doesn't deny the greatness of the game in his original real release and on the modded pc fixed one which puts it at the same level as dreamcast.
>>10768615
the thing is that they iterated with the dreamcast games, it's just that 06 was very shit and made people think that the issue was the base sa gameplay rather than 06 being bugged and being a game which breaks sa gameplay rather than being a representation of it, the thing is that sammy doesn't understand this while most people just try to shift 06 blames to other games on the series by not wanting to learn about new gameplay style of 3d game so they try to blame these games by calling them bad instead of accepting the need to learn these good but different systems and in general accepting new experiences in videogames rather than the homogenization that happens today by awful companies which give slop to reduce the creative output of videogames and make menial iterative work to put mediocre people which don't have any creative muscle at charge.

>>10768609
Mario 64 being matched up to other games is the equivalent of a premature child doing a somersault next to a boomer and thinking himself better than anybody else. Its just annoying after a while.

Meanwhile, Sonic Adventure is that awkward autist in your classroom that performs a sick breakdance on the table but falls off midway after he misjudges his footing.

>>10768631
styles*
put mediocre and bad people into them*

>>10768635
sa is more akin to the dude who dances balkan dancing, it's a dance which looks fucking weird and for outsiders is a thing which looks autistic but after doing it you enjoy it a lot, mario is like ballet, easy to understand and good but can be too samey if done excessively and it's normally done wrong while not seeing their flaws.

>>10768658
I feel like you're implying SA has a higher skill ceiling than SM64

>>10768442
Well the model is still cool, I'm glad there are mods to restore the DC assets.

>>10768672
balkan dancing is in general as hard as ballet, both require skill on an equal level, one is just very weird for the common perspective of european dance and the other is the iconic euro dance.

>>10768729
>>10768672
aka sonic adventure gameplay and mario 64 gameplay are equally good and skillful, it's just that they are different and one is derided by this difference (sonic adventure)

>>10767083
Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 the only good Sonic games though.

>>10768734
Fair enough

>>10767083
Sonic Adventure did nothing wrong. Most arguments against it are from biased nintendrones who were (and still are) still stuck in a console war that hasn't been relevant for at least two decades now.

I love SA and SA2 so much
I fucking hate SA and SA2 so much more

>>10767083
He didn't. Unless you count 3D Blast, his first attempts at 3D are some of his best games.

>>10769074
Your embarrasing yourserf

Get some help

>>10769074
Don’t forget trying to transition from a localized name to the original Japanese name by using both names at once before sticking with the original name for the rest of the franchise

>>10767083
Platformers just kinda suck ass in 3D

3D platforming demands precision and careful observation and these things are opposite to what people expect of Sonic
Add to that a ton of glitches, weird art, weird animation, weird story, the attitude thing becoming a tired trope and being pushed harder than it should... It's so very janky and that's also bad for a mascot 3D platform game. If Sonic weren't in it, it would fall to the shovelware bin of mascot platformers.
But I get why anons claim it's great and did nothing wrong. Because there is greatness there that makes it worth to suffer through the jank, so much so that if you get used to it you forget it's even there. But it is.
Also sometimes I think Marble Blast is Sonic Adventure stripped of all superficial aspects so only the autistic core remains with its greatness and the inherent weaknesses.

>>10767083
Sonic team are hacks

I'm played SA1 and SA2 some years ago.
2 is ok despite being filled with bad game design.
1 is comfy and charming but is otherwise rather boring unless you're a speedrunner who knows how to abuse the physics and the spin dash.

He didn't, he just had trouble with Sonic Team going to shit after Heroes, otherwise people liked the Adventure series until contrarianism and E-celeb faggotry hit

>>10769334
People had problems with it since release actually, they were just overshadowed by the vocal majority.

>>10769340
Every 3D game was levels of jank back then.

>>10769350
True, but SA1 had specifically bad in that regard in comparison to the main 3D platformers of the time.

>>10769358
*was

>>10769358
I disagree

>>10769340
>they were just overshadowed by the vocal majority.
Lol lmao

You can turn too easily. It makes it seem like you're not really going fast. They should have made him control more like a car when running.

>>10769429
Yeah the review bombing is definitely a recent thing. I think it started with the Steam port which messed up a few things but also was a reaction to some of the other bad publicity the series was getting in general due to stuff like Sonic '06 and Game Grumps

>>10767695
alright, that doesnt make the facial animation good. at least i didnt ignorantly shit on "duh story" like most people do since its actually good, it was just butchered by SoA as usual.

>>10768090
SOOOOOVL

>>10769104
i fucking love this game. unfortunately its not retro though. i wish more people would talk about it.

>>10769843
Yeah the loudest complaints are related to Sonic Adventure DX, which introduced a lot of jank and yet is the port the PC version is based on.
So the modern perception is of a more compromised version than what actually existed at the time of release

>>10770164
What's wrong with the PC version?

>>10770185
It’s got some poor wall collision, which famously can cause you to clip through the winding path in emerald coast.
There’s mods to fix that at least

>>10769429
I like the EGM review that directly says "Sonic has made a wonderful transition to 3D".

>>10769998
What? Marble Blast was first released in 2002
Also, pure autism magnet

>>10769340
>they were just overshadowed by the vocal majority
stop rewriting history, faggot.

Press right to go fast doesnt really work in 3D

>>10767083
real answer, they waited too long.
they waited so long on 3D Sonic, they didn't know what to do with 3D Sonic. that's why Adventure is a little bit of everything.
Adventure was born the moment someone in a room full of SEGA execs said
>Quick, what's our best selling games? Sega Bass Fishing? Ok, put it in.
they waited so long on 3D Sonic, Naughty Dog went ahead and made it after it was clear SEGA wasn't going to.

>>10771003
What do you mean? Sonic made the jump to 3D in 1996, same year as Super Mario 64 and Crash got released, going for Collect-A-Thon sensibilities in the same manner they did, as it was the style for that time, and it did well, Sonic's jump to 3D was near perfect if you ask me, an excellent formula.

>>10771193
it would have sold better if it had been SatAM themed.

>>10767083
shit developers, take a look at all the moves Mario got going from 2D to 3D
>Punch
>Double jump
>Triple jump
>Wall jump
>Crawl
>Backflip
>Somersault
>Ground pound
>Dive
>Kick
>Slide kick
>Long Jump
meanwhile Sonic...
>Homing Attack
>Bounce
>Boring on-rails shit like Light Dash which exists to lazily skip platforming
>Grinding, actual on-rails garbage which was fine in SA2 but became horribly overused
They didn't even bother to try, Sonic's toolkit is just shit for 3D

>>10767083
Problem was to much story and should've been basic. Honestly though solid entry if you ask me

that's why Sonic does need at least a few friends. Mario has the moveset, Mario wears different hats. Sonic has nearly always been about different characters with different abilities.

dear SEGA,
just do it again. scrape around what you still own, pick out the best bits, theme a Sonic game around them.
give it character select and HUB worlds. call it Sonic Adventure 3. it's easy

>>10771213
Sonic had wall jumps in Heroes. Backflips and different jumps were included in form of tricks (when you do a trampoline or rope jump). He learned Stomp (aka ground pound), dive and slide later. And somersault was there from day 1.

All other moves you've named are not gonna work for him. Sonic would never crawl, that would look silly, and he doesn't need kick when his quills can break steel.

>>10771902
They've kinda returned to Adventure multi-character formula in Frontiers DLC. It was mediocre but I think it's the first time in ages when we were able to play as Tails in mech and Knuckles again. I hope they were just testing waters and will do much better next time.

>>10767083
You're an idiot and clearly haven't played a $10 steam game. Think for yourself retard.
>>10769074
case in point >>10769086

Haven't bought frontiers, have no intention to. Hell after watching Oneyplays run through Forces I might give it another run. But Frontiers reconing things I liked from Adventure is unacceptable. I have more hope in Project 06 than I do in Sega ever making me want to give them money.

>>10770164
>>10770185
>>10770191
The best version of SA1 is Sonic Adventure original GDI (US 1.005, animated title screen) or SADX with SADX Mod Installer.

>Dreamcast
Sonic Adventure original GDI (US 1.005, animated title screen)
https://cdromance.com/dc-iso/sonic-adventure-usa/
Sonic Adventure DC-HD first release (60 FPS, widescreen, skippable cutscenes, restored objects etc.)
https://dcmods.unreliable.network/index.php/2021/08/27/sonic-adventure-dc-hd-first-release/

>Windows
Sonic Adventure DX - Director's Cut (PC, 2004)
https://archive.org/details/SonicAdventureDXPC
SADX Mod Installer (This is a tool for Sonic Adventure DX PC that installs the latest version of MainMemory’s SADX Mod Loader and its dependencies, as well as Dreamcast Conversion and several other mods, which are sorted and configured automatically!)
https://sadxmodinstaller.unreliable.network/

>List of available Sonic Adventure (+DX) builds. SA1 can barely manage 30 fps on Dreamcast and had performance issues thanks to it using its own lighting engine, which is probably a huge factor into why SA2 runs at 60.
https://dcmods.unreliable.network/index.php/2021/09/03/list-of-available-sonic-adventure-builds/

>This blog examines the differences between Dreamcast, Gamecube and PC versions of Sonic Adventure/Sonic Adventure DX, focusing on changes in the Gamecube and PC ports that can be considered downgrades from the original Dreamcast version.
https://dreamcastify.unreliable.network/index.php/category/level-specific-downgrades/

>>10767083
He didn't really. Much of the trouble was because of weird choices SEGA made...

Many of the complaints that I see online regarding the 3d era, are less about the 3D gameplay itself, and more about strange choices SEGA made that were just bad game design...

Sonic's first venture into 3D

>Multiple characters with different playstyes...
>Sometimes awful stories that take themselves just a little too seriously (SA2 at times)


Adventure 1 and 2 get unfairly shit on as of late. I do blame some of this on certain internet personalities that made it cool to hate on the 3d era.

Overall, can anyone really complain about the straightforward action stages with Sonic??

They aren't perfect, but they function well enough and were a great attempt at bringing Sonic into 3D.

We never really got a straightforward 3D Sonic adventure without any gimmicks.

Adventure is the closest, but we still have those multiple play styles. Heroes added teams, Unleashed added the were-hog, Frontiers has some rpg stuff, etc...

Generations, Heroes, Colors, and the SA series is really the closest we got to that "normal" 3d Sonic game.

Those are the 3D games that seem to have been mostly well received from the looks of it.

SEGA just has to find its groove. I think we are getting there with Sonic Dream Team.

You say that OP, but Sonic Adventure 1/2 are both beloved games. It's afterward where Sonic as a franchise didn't really have much direction.

He didn't really. SA1 and 2 have their rocky aspects but overall captured the spirit of the franchise. It's the fact they weren't refined upon properly since.

Heroes was slippery repetitive rushed mediocrity, 06 was a disaster, and Unleashed decided to nix momentum/spindash entirely in favor of adapting Sonic Rush to 3D, which became the modern Sonic formula.

SA1 was an overpriced, overhyped hack-job, made in desperation to keep up with the competition. It has no real focus, just a mish-mash of things thrown against the wall. Honestly it just makes me sick that people like this game or claim it's misunderstood. It's a monument to excess and stupidity.

And SA2 was just never good, period. It's 1, but worse. It doesn't have any much-needed improvements, and is actually a regression in many ways.

I think that deep down, most people agree with me, and know I'm right. It's not really a surprise to me that reviews of Sonic just absolutely tanked the second it went 3rd party. People didn't have to be polite anymore.

He had problems evolving in 3D. He didn't have issues entering it. To this day, SA1 is still the perfect 3D Sonic.

>>10769086
Holy ESL

>>10773164
>It's not really a surprise to me that reviews of Sonic just absolutely tanked the second it went 3rd party. People didn't have to be polite anymore.
Or it could be because Sonic Heroes controlled quite poorly, Shadow was a mess and Sonic '06 was a disaster, once SEGA went back to making 3D Sonic good with Unleashed, Colors and then Generations, the reviews and public reception all went back to being good, also even during those "dark ages" we still had handheld titles like GBA's Advanced series and DS' Rush series being loved.

If you don't like Sonic, that fine, but don't try to act as if most people agree with you thanks to some conspiracy about the switch from 1st party to 3rd, Sonic was always adored because it was good, and it gets hate if its bad. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are also excellent, flawed gems, but still gems, you're not smart because you dislike Sonic, even if you try to sound and act like it. anon.

Funny story, when SA1 came out on Gamecube (which was a year or two after SA2, for those who don't know), I was reading a Nintendo magazine at the time, and I remember the way they worded the announcement.
"Sonic is back, and he's brought a good game with him this time!"

There was this weird window of time for about five seconds there, where Sonic Adventure 2 was considered shitty, and SA1 was considered the good one. I guess because SA2 was fresher at that point, and people still had some wistful idealised memory of the Dreamcast, from like two or three years prior, when the graphics and performance were still amazing to people.

the only way forward for Sonic is for SEGA to reboot Adventure.

>>10773171
Hey they had that pretty good evolution where the gameplay shifts to 2D segments for platforming challenges

>>10773478
I was actually referring to the fact that SA1 and 2 got horrible reviews immediately after they left the Dreamcast as well. Probably because they are bad games.

>>10768609
it really doesn't. it was outclassed by later fifth gen games. it's only remembered because nintendo continues to shill it.

>>10767083
because he sucks!

>>10773954
You know that's not true, they got worse reviews than before, but not horrible, and that's because they were inferior ports, it's not the same, also it started an entire new generation of Sonic fans, if you talk to someone who's into Sonic, their 1st is likely to be either Sonic 2 or Sonic Adventure 2, it was still good despite being an inferior port since the core it worked on was already just excellent.

If you think the OG Sonic Adventure and/or Sonic Adventure 2 qualify as bad video games, instead of just video games you happen to dislike, then I can't help but think you're arguing in bad faith...

>>10767767
>not “son-ACK!”
v shitposters are so low level

>>10774051
I find the port argument to be a passing of the buck
Absolutely every complaint about those games was "I don't like being forced to play as this specific character who isn't Sonic". I don't remember anyone talking about bugs or missing textures. There are bugs and missing textures, but the games are bad at more of a fundamental design level.

>>10774187
I disagree, especially in recent years as there are way more reviews and overall public opinion for Sonic Adventure going down, which I think stuff like YouTubers and internet personalities is sort of responsible for, bugs and technical issues are something people complain about a lot when its called "jank" and that it "hasn't aged well" and in the Dreamcast version those are less common...

I think having the characters play different over them being mostly identical, like in the Genesis, wasn't a good move, I would've preferred a more traditional direction, but what's there isn't bad.

What I mean is, regardless if you dislike those stages or not, they all control well and have good level design, Tails and Knuckles at least, and they are, alongside Sonic, the majority of the run time.

I'm not even arguing Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are masterpieces, even the OG ones have bugs and, again, a more traditional route for the characters would've been better, but the ones I truly dislike like Amy and Big are short, and the other ones like Tails and Knuckles control as you'd expect a Sonic character to do so, they're good video games, the 3D platforming's good.

>>10767086
SEGA had no coherent vision for what a 3D Sonic should be like. Adventure is a just a bunch of ideas they threw at a wall to see what would stick. And amazingly, they didn't learn from it.

>>10767083
he went too fast and overshot directly into 4d

I was there when Dreamcast launched, Sonic Adventure launched at 11 years old. Everything HAD to be a big open world 3D game, it felt like everything was progressing and exciting.

I saw no gameplay issues with the game at the time, though I did find the dialog cringe.

>>10767083
Unprecedented levels of speed but not enough memory to stream in giant worlds to run freely through and explore. Jumpy, buggy controls, and a poor camera system.

>>10767773
The idiots are self-regarding consumer slaves, oblivious to the paradox of their uniform individuality.

>>10772374
Based. IMO PC version with SADX mod installer is the definitive way to play the game. The only argument in favor of the DC original is "It's the original"
Modded PC fixes every DX bug plus brings back all Dreamcast assets with the original lighting engine, and it runs at 60FPS
It's practically the original version except 60FPS, widescreen and running at a higher res

>>10767083
it's too limited of a concept to be good in 3D. Doesn't mean it can't be fun

>>10775326
I do like to have fun with additional mods

>>10776682
Literally comes with the mod installer

>>10767083
What are you talking about? He controls and plays better on Sonic Adventure than Mario did on Super Mario 64. Not sure how I was suppose to use a N64 controller with only two hands.

>>10776857
Ignore the d pad part entirely since it’s not used at all in that game.
For some reason Nintendo thought the d pad and the analog stick would always be completely mutually exclusive and you’d never need to be physically capable of using both together