/vr/ - Retro Games

>>10758213
Still a better controller than the Dreamcast controller.

>>10758215
Jag dpad feels terrible

>>10758251
Ever played on a Dreamcast dpad? It's even worse. Completely stiff and raised for some unknown reason. Even diehard Sega fanboys actually mod their Dreamcast controllers just so they can use the dpad.

Pic very related. It's the first google result for "Dreamcast dpad". Some dude taped a coin on top of it just to make it more bearable. Kek.

>>10758215
i like both

>>10758213
>Third gen of consoles:
>Atari makes.... a vertical controller with two side-buttons.
Remember that 7800 was supposed to be released in 1984. D-pad wasn't a thing yet back then, nintendo hadn't popularized it yet, and atari had a ton of those joysticks lying around. They revised the controller for the european market not long after the launch day.
>Fifth gen:
>Analog thumbsticks start becoming a thing
Jaguar is a 4.5th gen console just like the 3DO. Analog thumbsticks only got popular by the end of the 5th gen era.
>Atari.... sticks a number pad on their controller again
Many Jaguar games are closer to computer games than console games. Iron Soldier, Doom, Cybermorph, Battlemorph, AvP, and many others would feel terrible without the numpad. It could have used shoulder buttons though, that's the real flaw.

>>10758213
In my mind the 3DO actually had a more fubar controller situation than the Jaguar because despite it looking more conventional it only had 3 buttons *total* which in the post-SFII era was just completely inexplicable. The SNES made 6 buttons pretty much standard, and the Genesis admitted its mistake and released a 6 button controller so it could keep up with the hot shit arcade ports of the time. When the 2 major consoles you're following both decided 6 was the mandatory minimum how the fuck can you justify halving that number on what's supposed to be a next-gen console? The Jag controller was badly designed but at least it accounted for the possibility of complex control schemes .

Atari's biggest and most baffling fuck-up IMO was not even trying to develop anything *remotely* interesting themselves prior to launch. The Jag went to war with the SNES, Genesis, TG16, 3D0 and the looming spectre of the Playstation, and its opening salvo was Cybermorph. A game that was basically an uglier version of Starfox. And if you didn't like that there was....Trevor McFur?

Nintendo made goddamn sure there was at least one top tier game ready to go for the SNES launch by making it themselves. Whatever else happened, Mario World alone could sell the console. SEGA made a really good port of one of their own arcade games and had several other lined up for the console launch. So again, whatever else happened with 3rd parties, the console had a couple strong titles to start with. Atari seemed to be expecting that other companies would just come running up with amazing games that they could license and use to sell their console and when that didn't happen they did...absolutely fucking nothing. They just dropped it with whatever crap they'd managed to acquire and called it good. This was their last-ditch effort at remaining a viable hardware company and it was released with not one fucking piece of software anyone would want. How the FUCK does that happen?

>>10758575
>Cybermorph. A game that was basically an uglier version of Starfox.
No, it was developed before star fox's release. It's a semi open world shooter game that's more akin to Desert Strike, but in 3D. It's actually an impressive game for 1993 standards. Starfox is a much simpler rail shooter game. The graphics was far above Starfox, the polygon count is much higher and it uses goraurd shading. If the controls weren't so awful it would've been a great game. But it was the best they could do with small studios and low budget games. All the AAA devs went to nintendo and sony.

The sequel, Battlemorph, is even more impressive and actually very enjoyable to play though.

>>10758620
>Starfox
isn't Starfox a rail shooter?

>>10758457
>Remember that 7800 was supposed to be released in 1984. D-pad wasn't a thing yet back then, nintendo hadn't popularized it yet, and atari had a ton of those joysticks lying around.

The 7800 DID have a d-pad though. Planned to come out in 84 or not, it would have been stupid to keep outdated design concepts for a controller on a system you are releasing later.

>Jaguar is a 4.5th gen console just like the 3DO. Analog thumbsticks only got popular by the end of the 5th gen era.

There is no such thing as half a gen, and the N64 launched with analog sticks.

>Many Jaguar games are closer to computer games than console games. Iron Soldier, Doom, Cybermorph, Battlemorph, AvP, and many others would feel terrible without the numpad.

If heavily KB+M games like 3D FPS or RTS can be made to work well with a controller, there is no excuse for these. Doom was on the freaking SNES and 32X, don't tell me you need a numberpad to play that.

>>10758575
>but at least it accounted for the possibility of complex control schemes .

Personally I don't feel just slapping a numberpad accounts for anything. It's a cheap and lazy way to just add buttons to a device. Numberpads were made to input numbers, not control games, they are in no way an ergonomical or sensical way to have button inputs in a game.

>>10758701
>The 7800 DID have a d-pad though
Yes that's the CX78 gamepad. It wasn't available right from the start iirc.
>it would have been stupid to keep outdated design concepts for a controller on a system you are releasing later.
They already had those controllers sitting in their warehouse since 1984. Would be a waste if they swapped it with a new one.
>the N64 launched with analog sticks
N64 came out late in the 5th gen era, in 1996. Took like another year for the PS1 and Saturn to get their own.
>It's a cheap and lazy way to just add buttons to a device.
And yet it's effective. More buttons is absolutely never a bad thing.
>Numberpads were made to input numbers, not control games
Wrong. Each Jaguar game came with a cover for the numpad that tells you what each button does in that specific game.
>don't tell me you need a numberpad to play that
It makes swapping your weapons as fast as if you're playing on PC. Can't do that with any other console. Even modern inventory wheels can't match that convenience.

>>10758729
>Yes that's the CX78 gamepad. It wasn't available right from the start iirc.

Wait, shit, I was thinking of the Jaguar. Still though, the 7800 came out after the NES and Master System, the CX78 should have been the standard controller it came with.

>They already had those controllers sitting in their warehouse since 1984. Would be a waste if they swapped it with a new one.

Hardly the first time something was produced then scrapped. They could have sold those as controllers for people who preferred "classic" style.

>N64 came out late in the 5th gen era, in 1996. Took like another year for the PS1 and Saturn to get their own.

Still the 5th gen, and Jaguar never did. They even made a 6 button version but never analog when both SEGA and Sony made an analog version.

>And yet it's effective. More buttons is absolutely never a bad thing.

Not really, no, it's not. Just slamming more buttons does not work if they are not ergonomically accessible.

>Wrong. Each Jaguar game came with a cover for the numpad that tells you what each button does in that specific game.

... how is that wrong? The very design of a numberpad was intended for data input of numbers, it was never meant to act as a game controller. Putting one in a controller is just a brainless way of adding more buttons without any thought being put into them being decently usable. I never said you would have no idea what the buttons do, I said the very concept of a numberpad was not designed to control videogames. Just because I can wire up say, the buttons and controls from an air conditioner to control a console does not mean it's knobs and switches were designed to control videogames.

>It makes swapping your weapons as fast as if you're playing on PC

Funny how this does not seem to be a hindrace to playing FPS on a controller though. If anything, it's the analog stick vs a mouse that's tie hindrance, not lacking additional buttons for switching weapons.

>>10758729
>>10758775
>Even modern inventory wheels can't match that convenience.

Disagree. Once you are used to the game flicking the inventory wheel button and the option in the wheel is as fast if not faster than moving your fingers from WASD to the number row or pad.

>>10758251
You can replace it, nice 3d printed options on egay.
Jag controller is comfortable as, dont mind it at all.

Also those repros are running out, shits going expensive and esoteric again.

>>10758701
>There is no such thing as half a gen

Gens are completely made up. Its not even an industry thing. People can think about it however they want.

Sometimes its interesting to think about it as Genesis, Turbografx-16 and SNES being a generation. Then Jaguar, 3DO, 32X, Saturn and PS1 being the next gen with Nintendo trying to stretch the SNES lifespan during this time.

Then the N64 and Dreamcast being the gen after, PSX having the stretched lifespan.

>>10758620
>If the controls weren't so awful it would've been a great game. But it was the best they could do with small studios and low budget games. All the AAA devs went to nintendo and sony.

That's the problem in a nutshell. If they had no third-party support and they didn't have any legit in-house development either, then what in the everloving fuck was their plan? Where were the games going to come from? How do you go through an entire console development cycle without putting any thought into software even though the software is what makes the profit? It's like opening a restaurant and not having a menu yet.
>so what do we serve?
>fuck, we don't know
>pay us now and maybe eventually we'll have an answer
>huh how come nobody wants to give us money

>>10758701
>Numberpads were made to input numbers, not control games, they are in no way an ergonomical or sensical way to have button inputs in a game.

I agree, its the worst possible way to implement additional buttons and literally anything else would have been better. I'm just saying if it comes to it, 3 buttons plus a retarded keypad still gives you more options than 3 buttons plus literally nothing. They're in the wrong place but at least they're there somewhere.

>>10758701
Syndicate on jaguar is actually one of the best ports of the game, and good use of the numpad. Also there’s mouse support you can hack up for it in the emulator, worth a look.

Also pro controller fits nicer. Remaps buttons but 1 2 and 3 are good isolated buttons still.

>>10758701
>There is no such thing as half a gen
Gens are little more than rough ballpark estimates of eras which sort of correspond to technological development and economy, but only loosely. There's no real strict or formal definition of console gens, and various machines have blurred the lines.

Arguably, there's not even such a thing as a console generation at all.

>>10759758
This, it's nothing but an informal short hand and should not be treated or used as anything else but that.

>>10758626
I don't understand why this wasn't the normal controller. Releasing a 3 button pad in 1993 made no fucking sense, especially when you were going to turn around and sell a six button version right after. Sega had to do it that way because the Genesis launched pre-Street Fighter II.

A number pad would be a really convenient way to change weapons in console FPS.

>>10760660
I guess Mega Man, too. Though I never found cycling through with shoulder buttons to be any less convenient.

>>10758213
>And theres all these numeric buttons, what the shit is this? Is this thing a phone?

>>10761043
don't spoonfeed zoomies they just have to lurk moar

>>10761070
I know both what the 5200 controller looks like and who AVGN is, the 5200 episode was one of my favorites, what the fuck are you talking about you fuckernaut?

Did you not see this part of my post?
>Seems they realized they under-did it because in that same gen they released another console with not only a numberpad but several other buttons on the controller to ridiculous excess.

>>10761141
i find them pretty useful to switch weapons or display map. in Syndicate it's actions shortcuts

>>10758775
>the CX78 should have been the standard controller it came with
Production took a while. It came out a year after the console's initial release.
>Hardly the first time something was produced then scrapped.
Well good thing they weren't led by someone who hated video games anymore, because it wasn't financially feasible.
>They could have sold those as controllers for people who preferred "classic" style.
No, the joystick was essential, Robotron 2084 and Ikari Warriors were designed for it.
>Still the 5th gen
Nope. 5th gen consoles were engineered to render 3D graphics. The Jaguar actually had no 3D hardware whatsoever, only 2D hardware. It's a system from 1993 and genesis was still the hots back then.
>Jaguar never did
The Jaguar was discontinued in 1995, long before N64's launch.
>Just slamming more buttons does not work if they are not ergonomically accessible.
Do you have small hands? When it comes to inventory controls with many buttons I'd prefer to have a numpad like layout rather than some strange layout I'd have to memorize for each game. It's just way more straightforward. You can't press WASD while reaching for numeric buttons on your keyboard either, you'd have to move your hand away from the WASD, and that's not a bad thing at all. The most important thing is ease of memorization.
>The very design of a numberpad was intended for data input of numbers, it was never meant to act as a game controller.
Do you literally play nothing but nintendo games?
>If anything, it's the analog stick vs a mouse that's tie hindrance, not lacking additional buttons for switching weapons.
That's wrong, that's not the only hidrance. There's a reason why in modern consolized fps games you're allowed to carry 2 weapons only.

>>10758780
Ah so a console baby indeed.

>>10759758
>>10760153
Jaguar has no hardware 3D rendering, it's all done in software except for 2D graphics, yet the CPUs are much more powerful than the CISC processors old consoles used. It's very much a half gen console, sitting firmly between 4th and 5th gen systems.

>>10761472
>Production took a while. It came out a year after the console's initial release.
If you take a year just to make the same style of controller everyone else does then you have even more problems.

>Well good thing they weren't led by someone who hated video games anymore
Because that sure as fuck led to good decisions with the Jaguar

>No, the joystick was essential
Sounds like a skill issue

>Nope. 5th gen consoles were engineered to render 3D graphics
Nope, processing ability means fuck-all to generations. The Hyperscan is considered 7th gen, it barely compares to a SNES in terms of power.

>Do you have small hands?
Do you have human hands?

>I'd prefer to have a numpad like layout rather than some strange layout I'd have to memorize for each game
A wheel confuses you? Wait until you see that people also invented fire.

>Do you literally play nothing but nintendo games
Right, because Sony, Microsoft, Sega, fucking ANYONE OTHER THAN ATARI PAST 2ND GEN used numberpads.

>That's wrong, that's not the only hidrance.
It pretty much is such a big one that it's essentially the only one

>Ah so a console baby indeed.
Wrong again zoomie

>>10761480
>If you take a year just to make the same style of controller everyone else does
It takes a while to prepare the manufacturing of literally any product.
>Because that sure as fuck led to good decisions with the Jaguar
They were doing pretty good before the Jaguar.
>skill issue
Zoomie jargon.
>The Hyperscan is considered 7th gen
Did you find that out from wikipedia?
>it barely compares to a SNES in terms of power
I see, tech illiterate as well.
>Sony, Microsoft, Sega, fucking ANYONE OTHER THAN ATARI PAST 2ND GEN used numberpads
Because they're all behind the curve? Steam controller's trackpad was proven to be much more effective than an analog stick and yet no modern console uses it. Numpad sure as shit works better for inventory control than back buttons.

>>10761518
>It takes a while to prepare the manufacturing of literally any product.
Their product was already being delayed anyway

>They were doing pretty good before the Jaguar.
They were a joke after the 2600

>Zoomie jargon
Says the zoomie

>Did you find that out from wikipedia
It's called being there to experience it, something you would know nothing about

>I see, tech illiterate as well.
Says the person who can't even understand console gens

>Because they're all behind the curve?
Ah yes, literally EVERYONE is behind the curve for not just lazely slapping a numberpad in their controller, of course

This is just sad now.

Jag controller is way comfier than it looks. The numpad is useful because of ports from PC requiring so many buttons. When you don’t need it it’s out of the way. When you do, it’s not awful. Could’ve been better, but that’s true about everything about the Jaguar.

>>10760576
>you were going to turn around and sell a six button version right after.

The cynical part of me suspects that maybe the intent was always to force people to buy an additional controller immediately after buying the system. Although given that almost nothing else about how the Jag was handled made any sense either just straight up incompetence is still the most likely explanation.

>>10761621
>The cynical part of me suspects that maybe the intent was always to force people to buy an additional controller immediately after buying the system. Although given that almost nothing else about how the Jag was handled made any sense either just straight up incompetence is still the most likely explanation.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" - Robert. J. Hanlon

>>10761172

I liked the syndicate port on the jaguar, the emulator got rid of all the slow down found.
Can also now use fully fledged mouse and keyboard with the version, it has smooth scrolling around the map, that alone makes a big difference.

>>10761792
yeah it's a very good emulator. still has a few sound hiccups here and there but the thing improved so fast.
the guy behind it had severe health issues, i hope he's doing better