/vr/ - Retro Games

Nethack

I tried a couple of them but they're really not for me

Izuna: Legend of the Unemployed Ninja

I played it for a week or so last year on my Chromecast HD, with a PS4 controller.

I really liked it, she is legitimately funny, and the dungeons are cool.

Is this a Mystery Dungeon, though?

Never played a single one. Even the Pokemon ones came after my time obssessing over Pokemon

>>10626715
I don't think that's even Retro, tripfag-kun. Isn't that an NDS game?

Roguelikes for console kiddies too scared to play a real one

>>10626673
I’ve been playing PMD Red Rescue Team the past couple of days, actually. Overall I like it, but managing your team is kind of a headache. I like the Pokémon dressing and persistent leveling, but it’s just a tad annoying. I’m not sure if I should try the next game, or a completely different series.

>>10626954
it's a port of a SNES game

Torneko's Great Adventure (SNES)
Torneko's Last Hope (PS1)
Shiren the Wanderer (SNES or DS)
Shiren GB2/DS2
Shiren 2 (N64)

I recommend all these. Haven't really tried the Pokémon or Chocobo ones very much. Torneko's has a 3rd game on GBA too that o haven't played.
Shiren 3 everyone says to skip.
Shiren 4 **just** got a translation this month and it's great (PSP).
Shiren Gaiden: Asuka Kenzan (Dreamcast) will probably be done being translated in a month. Lots of hype for this one.
Shiren 5 and 6 are probably good too but maybe it's better to do the earlier ones first before too many mechanics were added.

There's a couple stray others, and some non-Mystery Dungeon games, but this is already enough.

>>10626984
Understandable, carry on.

>>10626969
>managing your team is kind of a headache
What's there to manage? You just choose who you want to bring and occasionally teach and combine moves.

>>10626957
And real ones are for Steam kiddies too scared to actually play Rogue

>>10627198
Their growth rates vary so wildly, and I don't like having Pikachu locked to my party. I'm still pretty early so maybe that second part changes, at least. I'm split on how recruiting works. I think my biggest problem is that the game feels way too easy, until all of a sudden it doesn't and a party member gets killed with one attack.
I don't know. I'm like six and a half hours in and I'm not sure if I should keep going or not. It depends on how much changes after Zapdos.

>>10627235
You can level up your third party member extremely quickly at the Makuhita dojo.
In the main story you have to use your two starters but in the postgame (which is the longest part) you can use any combination you want.

>>10627239
So it's one of those cases where the game doesn't really begin until it's "over?" I like the core gameplay, so if it's worth it to rush the story and then have some true fun I'm fine with that.

>>10627241
>So it's one of those cases where the game doesn't really begin until it's "over?"
Exactly. All the Pokemon from gen 1 to 3 are in the game but the vast majority of them are postgame exclusives, and so is evolution.
The postgame also has its own story-based quests that unlock dungeons with legendary Pokemon.
There's one dungeon in particular called purity forest that's so long and difficult it feels like a separate game; it's 99 floors deep, it scales you down to level 1, doesn't allow you to bring items or companions and outleveling the enemy Pokemon is pretty much impossible.
Trying to beat that dungeon repeatedly is
really fun and always a new experience depending on what Pokemon you bring and how the RNG treats you.

>>10627241
>So it's one of those cases where the game doesn't really begin until it's "over?"
Exactly. All the Pokemon from gen 1 to 3 are in the game but the vast majority of them are postgame exclusives, and so is evolution.
The postgame also has its own story-based quests that unlock dungeons with legendary Pokemon.
There's one dungeon in particular called purity forest that's so long and difficult it feels like a separate game; it's 99 floors deep, it scales you down to level 1, doesn't allow you to bring items or companions and outleveling the enemy Pokemon is pretty much impossible.
Trying to beat that dungeon repeatedly is really fun and always a new experience depending on what Pokemon you bring and how the RNG treats you.

>>10626673
Filtered me WAY too hard and I gave up

>>10627276
Good to know. I’ll stick it out at least until the end of the story, then.

>>10626984
No it's not. You're mixing it up with Shiren 1 in the OP.

>>10628043
hmmm, interesting, and you kn- *knocks over the game board and runs away*

As a fan of Pokemon since RB, I always ignored Mystery Dungeon. I laughed at it as just another dumb knockoff spinoff thing. Later, when the DS Shiren released, I got into that because of TinyCartridge, and I still play that. It's hard for me to play PC roguelikes because I like Shiren too much and the mechanisms are so different.
This past week or two, I've decided to give PMD a fresh fair shot, with Explorers of Sky because I remember friends being excited about that one back in the day. It's so odd, having been entrenched in Pokemon lore for 26 years, to have this game upend everything. It's like an alternate universe. I think the amount of story and dialogue is weird, coming from Shiren. It's also so cheesy, clearly made for young people, but that's fine I can dig it. I am barely into the game, but I see the potential now. I really wonder where this will go as I continue playing.

>>10628312
Imagine a timeline where one of those spinoffs became the mainline series, we fucking missed out bro.

>>10626715
The Izuna games play a lot like the Torneko MDs in that you clear one dungeon and move on to the next so they're close enough even if not branded as a mystery dungeon game

I liked Nightmare of Druaga but it's different from Shiren since you keep your level and only certaiin marked gear and have to try to build a good gear set to progress. It's really hardcore on preventing savescumming, can't copy your game file and if you quit out then Ishtar will fuck with you for like 5-15 minutes.

>>10626673
I dunno who else was brave enough to play Etrian Mystery Dungeon.. Horrid. D: >>10628312 I have Pokemon EOD while the maingame was a slog cause I had Pikachu|Mudkip the postgame took years of off and on play, the capture rates sucked golden mask pretty much required desu. >-<

>>10626673
I like Rogue and similar games so obviously I like the Mystery Dungeon games

>>10626689
Based. Nothing even compares

>>10628312
PMD Explorers of Sky is the best pokemon game period, can't go wrong with it.

>>10630813
>friend areas replaced by a boring soulless name list
>no purity forest
>never a chance to bring your recruited Pokemon during the story
>includes the worst Pokemon generation ever made
Blue team is way better

>>10630938
I agree on the first point but the rest is untrue and homossexual.
>Purity Forest
There's the Zero Isle maps and Destiny Tower.
>never a chance to bring your recruited Pokemon during the story
You're only really barred from doing it close to the end, your recruits even participate in the earlier cutscenes by reacting to what's happening.
>includes the worst Pokemon generation ever made
It doesn't have shitmons from Gen6 and beyond.

>>10627241

Yeah I've also been playing it lately (my first Pokémon game ever!) and I can tell you that the primary, initial storyline of it is nothing but extremely (but not unpleasantly) drawn-out tutorial and setup for the "real" game, if you're not a super casual player. (If you are a super casual player, for example if you're a little kid who sucks at games because you're so young, then that storyline is there to let you feel like you've played and finished a whole game without ever having to take the training wheels off.)

The game is never NetHack-level difficult but it does pose certain hardcore challenges. If you try hard enough, you can find plenty of difficult tasks in it. Balance is a bit wild (understandable given the huge number of playable characters and constraints imposed by the source material) and it's true that one-turn kills (well faintings) happen way too easily, but it's generally a good game, although actually recruiting ALL Pokémon in it may be far too much of a slog to bother with. So yeah, go ahead and rush that story.

(Also, you will increasingly be able to armor yourself against one-turn kills with reviver seeds as the game progresses.)

As for OP's question: Yeah I like this game, and it's the only one I've played so I have to call it the best one I know. I wanna try Shiren next though. I don't think I'll move on to other Pokémon ones because I've already put way too much time into this first one and at present I'm glad to make it not only the first Pokémon game I ever play, but also the last one. I mean god damn there are like 400 of the little bastards in it... I think that's enough for one lifetime, even if that means I never get to see Clefairy as an actual "fairy", capture God itself in a Pokéball, etc.

>>10626673
I got really deep into Shiren and was liking it a lot but ended up doing a bunch of testing and realized the game is heavily influenced by the fortune teller's weather predictions to the point that empty runs without built up items are only possible given certain weather. Basically, the game has a series of pre-set floors with certain preset monsters and items. Then there are various weather effects which the fortune teller will hint at, Hot Winds, Warm Breezes etc. When you start a run it selects a list of levels and them alters them depending on the weather. So on the same map under one condition you can collect all the items, in another there are more weed bandits who transform most no matter what and more traps. I don't like roguelikes where you build up items or other things between runs so I lost a lot of interest after that. But it still does have a ton of charm, some day if I ever have time to get into programming I'd like to make a real roguelike using it's graphics and music.

>>10631175
By the way if anyone is interested and maybe even if you're not I can delve into my favorite roguelike of all time. It's retro, originally designed for the GBA and is free anywhere and runs on almost everything. I plsy on PSP most of the time. It's a very roguelike roguelike in that is is more like Rogue than many like even Nethack or Adom or Ivan in a way I very much like. Simple, quick down and back up but wonderfully complex and challenging in delightful ways.

>>10631639
I've had Powder on my DS for a while, but haven't invested in learning it. Is there maybe a Powder for Dummies guide or something?

>>10631639
I want to know more!

>>10631729
>>10631735
I have to get to work but this seems like a mirror if a quite good guide site I used when learning. I'll write a longer post later.
http://powder.coolpage.biz/powder/index.php/Main_Page/

>>10631639
>my favorite roguelike of all time
It was the first one I played but I haven't found anything else I liked as much as it. Maybe I should give Nethack another try. I remember being frustrated by how luck based the wrath of the gods is in Powder. Or maybe I am doing something wrong.

>>10631729
>>10631735
>>10631867
Okay so as the description says, the goal is pretty straightforward just get to the bottom of the dungeon, get Beelzebub's heart and get back to the entrance. Which is a big part of what I like about it, similar to Rogue it's kind of quick and dirty which is good because it means when you die on the 23rd floor it's frustrating but not as big a loss as dying near the end of a big game of Nethack or Adom. Which is good because I find Powder fairly hard compared to them, Nethack once you know what you're doing well enough is beatable pretty much every time and Powder isn't like that.

Anyway the hook as one Anon mentioned is that while you're going through the dungeon, everything you do is being watched and judged by a pantheon of gods and these gods are also essentially how you determine your class. So the barbarian god for example loves it if you run around hacking and slashing and will reward you for doing so, but if you use any magic he'll get super pissed off. The cleric god doesn't mind you attacking hostile creatures with either weapons or magic but will quickly get pissed off if you attack non-aggressive creatures or use necromatic magic etc etc. All gods are watching all the time but the one you're following generally has the most sway and if you are following them well can help mitigate making others mad to a degree.

Each level you decide which god you want to follow and that will determine your stat growth, weather you get more skill slots, spell slots, HP or MP. You find books which have either spells or skills in them and that's how you gain new abilities. So if you found some good spell books even if you were planning on going a fighter route, it might be better to follow one of the more magical gods for a bit to gain access to them.

It can seem random, but aside from the god of chaos their reactions aren't and one of the common things to do while going along is to pray intermittently to see what they all think

Dragon Warrior/Quest Monsters

>>10632206
For one I realized some of the links in that mirror to the old wiki are dead, so ask any questions if you have them.

So for some strategy, first off while learning the basics it might be easier to play as agnostic a while. You won't gain benefits of the gods being happy with you but you also won't get screwed over by them so it can remove that worry for a while. As agnostic you gain half a skill point and half a magic point per level which is the slowest growth of any class but that's not necessarily a bad thing, brings us to tip #2.

Grinding will get you murdered fast. Monster spawns are based partly on the floor you are on but more influenced by your current level physical and magical hit dice. So if you kill everything you see and try to level up fast, it's going to spawn stronger monsters than you may be able to handle. I find it's better to only kill what you have to in order to stop getting hungry or can't get away from until you have started to build up a decent supply of items. Because of this, Endure Hunger which is a barbarian skill is one of the most useful in the game.

Save reading scrolls you find until you have a good supply of equipment and preferably have either identified a ring of fire resistance or eaten something to gain temporary fire resistance. A scroll of fire at the wrong time can end your game quickly, but also if you get a scroll of identify then the more stuff you have that gets identified will gain you tons of respect from the wizard and rogue gods. It's also just generally good to wait until you have a number of artifacts.

Unless you have detect curse or have identified a potion of acid, be very careful trying on new equipment until it's identified. Particularly helmets and necklaces, a helm of draining or an amulet of strangulation at the wrong time can get you killed real fast.

>>10632843
>cont

Once you have found some holy water, keep it until you can make more. There are a few ways, but dropping empty bottles into water will fill them, then you can dip a stack of regular water into one holy water and turn them all into holy water. Doing that at some point is almost a must for success.

Following Xom the chaos god is in some ways the hardest but also the most rewarding. Most of the gods are predictable, so as long as you know what you're doing you can usually mitigate pissing them off too much. Xom switches randomly between acting like all the other gods, but unless you are following him, you don't know which god he's imitating. So it's very possible to gain a bunch of praise with him for some reason or another and then have him switch to the barbarian god and get super pissed off and smack you down for casting a spell. So following him means you have to be very on your toes to do well, but you also get potentially very good rewards.

The possession spell is extremely powerful. It's success rate is based on the intelligence of your target so sometimes it's hard to get it to succeed, but if you have the luxury to try a few times it can be one of the best ways to deal with liches which can be extremely dangerous. Possessing one and then making it forget all it's spells is a pretty handy way to shut them downes, ditto with some other tough enemies like kobold mages and assassins. Also gelatinous cubes are later game monsters that are unaggressive but very powerful and very stupid, so a good way of getting out of a tricky situation is to possess one, have it attack then release it and run away while it keeps things busy. it's hard, but you can even possess Beelzebub and instead of killing him to get his heart, just have him throw it on the ground and walk away.

>>10632843
is there ever a good time to read a scroll of fire, or is it a cursed item through and through?

>>10632865
No they don't do anything but damage you, keep them around till you identify a wand of polymorph and try changing it into something good.

>>10632963
Speaking of, wands of polymorph are among the most cherished items in the game, they can be used to make shitty books, scrolls and wands into very good ones, though randomly. Also wands in general are one of the good first things to try identifying since they're fairly safe. The best way is to position yourself like this, in a doorway with a non-aggressive monster at a diagonal and a room big enough that when you zap the wand it will bounce at an angle off the wall. If you zap a wand at the corner of a room or flat to a wall it will come back at you which is not good if it's ice or fire. By doing this you can tell if it's a wand of slow, speed, invisibility etc without possibly messing yourself up. Also if it's a wand of create monster you should have enough time to back up, close the door and run away if it's something scary.

>>10628497
>It's really hardcore on preventing savescumming, can't copy your game file and if you quit out then Ishtar will fuck with you for like 5-15 minutes.
I played it on an emulator and that bitch couldn't do shit about my save states

>>10633124
I'm not big into telling people how to play games, but save scumming really sucks the actual fun out of roguelikes faster even than other genres in my opinion. At that point it's probably better to just play an rpg that's better balanced for that.

>>10631175
Oh it’s you, no shiren thread is complete without your complaints about the rng.

>>10633424
Well it ruins the game in the end, so it's hard not to bring it up. For years I wondered why it felt so off and then when I tested I realized why. Shiren for all it does well was the beginning of the end of the roguelike genre with it's popularizing grinding and building resources through multiple runs.

>>10627086
Playing Shiren 4 right now and it's incredibly fun.

>umm, exthcuse me, that'a DS and PSP game... not retro

>>10633614
that's PSP right? I am trying to decide whether to play the PSP or Vita game.

>>10633643
Not sure what's different between them but PSP works fine.

>>10633643
Shiren 4 exists for DS and PSP. The PSP version is called Shiren 4 Plus so it has more stuff. Just play the PSP version.

>>10633631
The shiren he posted which is the DS one is a port of the super famicom original shiren game so it's retro.

>>10633720
yeah I know that, I guess I was a little caught up on whether the next game had more content or polish or something.

>>10633861
Either version is fine.

>>10633115
I'll bump with a few more Powder tidbits if anyone out there has got back to trying it. Generally speaking I find I win more when I don't start a run with a specific class in mind and instead let what I come across determine how to go forward. Though that said I will often sometimes start as a Barbarian in hopes of starting with a book of H'Ruth because getting Endure Hunger early on is extremely useful.

A few fun items you can create include a flaming sword or flaming arrows, which you get by dipping a sword into a bottle of greek fire. So if you have a sword and haven't identified either acid or greek fire, try something unimportant but non-flamable first like a dagger or a bow or crappy armour. If it doesn't dissolve then try a sword or arrows. Doing that you'll get a flaming weapon if so and if not you'll have ruled out acid, poison or fire as the potion so at that point it's fairly safe to drink.

Also, always drink an unknown potion with full health and full mana. That way, if it's a health or mana potion you will get a permanent boost which isn't tied to your hit dice which is very handy.

Other items you can make include an ice mace, made by dropping a mace into water, using a spell or want to freeze the water, then doing the same again to unfreeze it and diving down to retrieve the mace. Ice maces aren't amazing, but can be handy, they do a little ice damage and can slow what you're fighting.

Thank you for all the hot tips, PowderAnon

>>10637395
You're verywelcome, I'm glad to help. I'll try to give more tips when I have time. Next up, earth hammer, one of the most useful items you can make.

Earth hammer lets you dig through walls which can be incredibly helpful, combined with the earth spell Entomb it can get out of many situations.

You need a war hammer and either a wand of digging or book of earth and a free spell slot or two. To make one, find a pit or spiked pit somewhere near a boulder (or use spells to make them), drop the hammer into the pit and then push the boulder on top and the spot will glow a moment. If you're using spells then create a pit there, climb down and get it. Otherwise stand over the spot and shoot the wand of digging at the floor. It will make a hole you'll both fall through then it will be somewhere on that floor.

>>10638215
A little more on deciding who to mainly follow on a given run. Dressing like a class can be very handy in general, especially if you are following that deity since it will get you piety with them. Here's a link to the dress codes and their effects
https://www.roguebasin.com/index.php/POWDER/Deities

So early game one of the things you're going to want to do first is figure out what kinds of shoes and headgear are what. If you find pointed slippers are either jump boots or speed boots then even if you're not following him you may want to dress like a wizard for the benefits it brings. Likewise if both riding boots and a feathered helm are good types then dressing like a barbarian so you can move diagonally is a big boon. But if you're using magic you'll have to be careful because making H'ruth happy through dress code makes you more vulnerable to punishment.

Also here's another fun thing you can do. In this run I started with a tome of electricity and then found a rapier. Drop it on the ground and cast a lightning spell over and it will turn into a lightning rapier with some charges. The more powerful the spell the more charges it imparts each time. When you attack with one and hit it uses a charge but you gain Quick status for a few rounds. That's super handy because not a lot of things give you Quick and it stacks with Fast from speed boots etc. Then also you can zap it like a wand which uses a lot of charges but shoots a lightning bolt. Since rapiers are fairly common you can make a bunch, I have two so far in this run I use one for attacking and the other as a back up wand for sticky situations.

>>10638635
One last tip for now. Don't play Powder while drinking! I'd had a couple ciders and we were going to bed, my run was going so well I figured I'd dive down another floor or two before calling it a night. In my stupidity I forgot I was wearing a piece of gold and a gold bettle brushed me. I tried to get away first and only made it two steps. That's Powder for ya! Hot damn I love this fucking game.

>>10632850
I can't tell if turning myself into a lich was a waste of time or not, and that is before accounting for how I die sometimes doing the ritual. What do you think?

>>10640369
I would say mostly a waste of time. Its a fun thing you can do but it's not super practical and the negatives usually outweigh so really just if you're following Tlosh and even then it's circumstantial. The biggest reason is that it's a way to deal with late game hunger but there are so many other ways.

>>10631038
I've been playing this game for three days now. To be fair is a well made game with loads of contents. But I have the same problem with Final Fantasy Tactics Advances, they are in fact very similar, well made games that drags for too long because there is no challenge and too much "quests" or jobs.
Shiren for the snes at least feels shorter but its more fun. Items matter, most enemies have some sort of behavior you need to account for, and you need to combine your weapons in order to win. Hopefully things will change for the better once I beat the story. I'm about to rescue alakazam and I wish I could change my main poketard.

>>10631639
Powder, angband, DC stone soup, nethack are all impressively great games for roguelikes. Powder is so good even with it's cut back ui, perfect to just jump in and play. I've been fiddling with stone soup lately and I really enjoy it's customization options. For non retro RL I always recc rogue survivor, mujahid and cataclysm.

>>10641367
Bump

>>10641367
>>10641367
I thank you for reminding me of Stone Soup, I dabbled with it some years back then got distracted by other things and had kind of forgotten about it. That looks like a nice interface I think I'm going to check it out again.

Finally beat Drowzee after probably 7 or so tries, only because Totodile learned a Dark-type attack at Lv13.
Now I'm on a side mission with freakin solo Bidoof yup yup. There are so many more mechanisms than Shiren it's kind of overwhelming, I wonder if non-Pokemon people like this series, because I am so glad I am already familiar with main series stuff. What I keep doing is saving awesome items for the boss and then... THEY DON'T WORK ON BOSSES. ugh wtf PMD. Just gotta use 'em as they come up. Biggest limiting factor so far is PP on moves. I think I can deal with Hunger. Hail on Bidoof would have sucked without focusing on getting other weather orbs.

>>10633643
The Vita version you're thinking about is an enhanced port of Shiren 5. Both 4 and 5 were on DS, but 4 had the remake for PSP

>>10626689
>looking it up expecting to see l337 h4x0r shenanigans
>nowhere to be found
disappointed

>>10626673
Ah, the best one? We'll I've heard the japanese shiren community has a trinity of shiren games. Shiren 1 (SNES), 2, and Asuka Kenzan. Haven't dived into AK, so I'll reserve judgment on that. I ended up really liking SNES S1, honestly more so than the DS remake. I find myself agreeing with the japanese fans saying the remake removed many things that benefit the player while adding annoyances in their place. You can't do half as many of the exploits in the SNES version, a bird enemy that straight up destroys your items, and inventory slot for a floor was added, the item pool in some dungeons became limited, some pieces of equipment were removed, and all the new dungeons being carry ins make the DS game a less than stellar remake. Man, writing this makes me want to try beating the SNES game's final dungeon again
Now, Shiren 2. This game is SOOO GOOD! It's been climbing my ranks and just might topple 5 as my favorite shiren game. It adds so many new mechanics onto the base shiren 1 set out. Mixers and a new synthesis system, activating traps with thrown items, the water pot (honestly, it was improved in 5, dont use it in 2). And really cool stuff I'd wish would make a return like being able to ricochet staffbolts off walls and moving the stairs with those bolts. Stealing has never been more effortless! And the postgame dungeon, road to the end, is the pinnacle of the series for me. Everyone and everything is there, and it truly challenges you and your knowledge of the game. There's also stuff for completionists like making a golden castle or catching and befriending all the monsters in the game.

>>10626957
I'd be willing to play one if a big strong man like you held my hand

>>10626673
A little too "rogue LITE" if'n you know what I mean, ma'am. *tips kasa*

I love Japan.
I've lived in Japan for 25 years.
I fully enjoy just about everything about this culture.

I just don't care for Japanese-themed fantasy RPGs.

>>10644189
Interface is good, but it's missing a few keys or I'm too stupid to gold them. Page up/down, iirc. I like it on mobile the best besides powder. It hits all the right spots and has great tilesets and customization.

This might not be the best thread to bring this up but I have a question:
I tried emulating Shiren 2 using Mupen64py 0.2.5 but the screen takes a shit every time I bring up the menu, do someone know why? I looked online and couldn't find anything.

>>10646875
That is strange. What rom did you use? I'd just take the prepatched rom from cdromance.com
If the emulator is the issue, I'd switch to RMG

>>10647025
I'm using the prepatched from CDR, maybe it's an emulator issue; Gonna try that RMG you mentioned.

>>10647025
Switching emulators solved it, thanks!

>>10645235
Ohh yes, I'd like a roguelike, lite on the rogue, thanks.

https://youtu.be/2U-OxUMeoOY?si=S5wSB7K8tH575HiT

>>10647867
Sadly that's the state of them now. I have unironically heard roguelikes referred to as games like Mystery Dungeon where you build resources between runs. Real roguelikes are barely made at all anymore.

>>10649668
They even cannibalized the mystery dungeon tag on steam. Can't have anything now

>>10649728
What do you mean? I don't use steam at all, all roguelikes are marked mystery dungeon?

>>10649737
Well, they added a mystery dungeon tag alongside roguelike, roguelite, and traditional roguelike. Yet, in all these areas, roguelites still sneak in

>>10649765
Well that makes sense in that I'd categorize Mystery Dungeon as roguelite rather than a roguelike, but if it messes with searches it's no good.

>>10649668
You know you can just not build resources between runs if you don't want too right? Shiren 1 especially you can beat in one run if you know what you're doing.
It's like trying to argue that the early roguelikes that had permadeath as optional aren't "true" roguelikes

>>10649668
That’s because you won’t find real rogue likes on steam obviously. Old roguelikes are still being developed alongside newer ones.

>>10650345
I am this guy >>10631175 I did extensive testing on Shiren 1 and while it is possible to beat it with no items, it depends on the luck factor indicated by the fortune teller. A run with calm breezes is possible, the same set of maps with hot winds is impossible no matter how much save scumming and trying different things you do. Shiren is designed to be played by accumulating items.

Indeed I would not call any roguelike without permadeath a true roguelike, it's one of the foundational aspects that makes it that genre.

>>10649668
These games only let you build resources in the tutorial dungeons. The real game begins in the extra dungeons you have to unlock after beating the tutorial dungeons.

>>10650595
That's fair, but I think calling something that plays incredibly similar to rogue (top down, tile-based, simultaneous turns) a "roguelite" just because it includes using items between runs is silly. I think the term roguelite is completely stupid anyway since people use it for literally anything with permadeath or procedural generation, even if the gameplay is nothing like rogue. At the end of the day genre descriptions are just semantics, but they do serve the purpose of letting people know what games are similar to each other. Someone who likes one top down, tile-based and turn-based dungeon crawler is probably going to like another top down, tile-based and turn-based dungeon crawler, which is why I think it's fair to call all MD games, even PMD, roguelikes. Also what this anon said >>10650623, even PMD has "true" roguelike dungeons in the post-game.

The term roguelite is retarded since it gets used for literally anything with permadeath or random generation, so in that sense MD would get lumped with games with completely different styles of gameplay.

at the end of the day none of this autism semantics matters though since what game is classified as has no effect on the actual quality of the game itself

>>10626715
I wish her series wasn't dead

>>10650701
wish granted
https://www.gematsu.com/2023/09/izuna-legend-of-the-unemployed-ninja-revival-izuna-announced-for-switch-pc

>>10626673
i just recently found out i was the test dummy for mystery dungeon games in the west
did you know chocobos mystery dungeon was the first one released in english? me neither
>be me
>late PS1/early PS2 era
>beat tf out of FF7
>want more FF
>eb games doesnt have 8 or 9 used so i cant afford those RIP me. it only got worse from there
>look around
>chocobos dungeon 2 (used) for $10
>whatever its got chocobos its prolly just another JRPG
>get home
>wtf did i even just buy?
>get confused
>get lost
>get filtered
and that happened quite a bit before i even began to understand wtf this game wanted me to do
it went against all my previous RPG instincts to hoard literally everything. no, these games give you something, you need to use it or lose it

out of all my PS1/PS2 games thats one that i always ended up going back to
insane amount of replay value in these kinds of games
chunsoft is underrated desu. not many random studios can just accidentally such a cohesive videogame genre like that

>>10645235
dont you lose literally everything in shiren?
what exactly is "lite" about that?
that game is incredibly unforgiving from what i remember
you can very occasionally send AN item back to one of the warehouses, but even then you dont have any control on when/if the delivery guy shows up, or even if you have anything worth saving

>>10650650
I will say straight up that I dislike the term roguelite because it comes across as pejorative and I don't think roguelite games are inherently any worse or better than roguelikes. That said, I think permadeath is such a central part of a roguelike's design that so much is affected by it if it's changed that a game with progression between games that it really does make it a different genre.

To me it feels like if when playing Street Fighter or Gradius and lose before the end, in your next game you're a little faster or stronger and so on. It throws off the balance because the games were designed around that original difficulty. Shiren feels that way to me, yes it's possible given the right circumstances and luck to win a game blind, but it wasn't designed that way. It was designed with the intention that you're building a stock pile of items as you do various runs.

To me that affects the way the games play to such an extent that putting them in the same genre doesn't make a lot of sense. For one big reason, the people who like the modern idea of them where there's some randomness to levels and you play a bunch of games to build up resources inbetween don't tend to like games based around permadeath and vice versa. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon and Nethack or Powder really are fundamentally different in most ways. So when the point of genre distinctions is to help people seek out certain types of games then calling both types the same thing just leads to confusion.

>>10650595
>its possible to beat shiren without items
how in the fuck? i cant even imagine getting through the swamps while naked
was this like you TASing/savescumming it or something?
or did you just get crazy fuckin lucky?
ive had multiple runs where the game just decided "fuck you" and dropped literally no equipment for the first like10 floors, but even then i was using random staffs and scrolls to try and play keep away with the scarier mobs
but thinking about beating it? naked? i almost dont believe you tbph

>>10650824
No it's definitely possible, I've done it before and pros can do it consistently. If you want real impossible try a carry in dungeon.

>>10650824
Sorry, I meant to say without using items collected in the warehouse. So playing it like a traditional roguelike rather than.a roguelite. It is possible, but only with certain weather (fortune teller tells you your luck). Like in my example, the same rotation of maps, one with good weather and one with bad weather are very different. More traps and items being turned into weeds, tougher monsters etc etc. Unlike say Nethack where almost any given run is winnable if you know what you're doing anf play smart, Shiren is not designed that way. Winning a game without using the warehouse at all relies heavily on the game giving you an easy run.

idgi
imo having items in shiren only raises the difficulty and complexity. if it didnt have those it would be incredibly fucking boring, and likely a whole lot easier. it would just be basic diceroll turn-based combat with absolutely no strategy whatsoever outside trying to get the first hit.
the PC (and many NPCs/enemies) being able to use items actually allowed the devs to RAISE the overall difficulty of the game.
and they sure did

>b-but you can stockpile items so its ez
i mean yea i guess you CAN stockpile items. eventually. like really really eventually. tho you cant control when or where or even if that delivery guy shows up in a run, nor can you tell him to go to a specific warehouse. ffs most of the time i dont even have anything to give him. plus even if you get a bunch of OP stuff, if you take it with you when you leave, thats it. its not coming back home
i suppose if youre a total scrublord you could even grind the tutorial mini-dungeons constantly. but ime most of his early stuff is junk that wont help much anyways
but idk to me that all seems like GOOD game design not bad. it allows the player to set their own difficulty, subbing in tenacity and time for skill, should they need to

i feel like the people saying these games are too easy have only played pokemon mystery dungeon for like an hour. that game does give you tons of items. but they aint gonna help you in the postgame dungeons. that shit gets fucking HARD

The most important thing in Shiren and other Mystery Dungeon games is too learn how to evade monsters. Fighting a monster is the result of failing to evade it. If you have to kill more than 1-2 monsters per floor then you're doing something seriously wrong.

>>10631175
have you played Fay's final puzzle?

>>10650862
oh i get it
yea of course you can beat it STARTING naked
and you can even sometimes do it with crappier weather, so long as you keep your head on straight and have a pocket full of some scrolls for when you get cornered.

ime the trick to getting """"consistent"""" is to spend some time in the early floors. you can pretty easily get the bowya in the streams to accidentally kill other mobs and level up a couple times. if you can take them down afterwards youll get a ton of exp
later on when you get to the canyon lvls with the musha, you can similarly get some random mamoon to lvl up twice too. pull out a dragon herb, blast him, and youll get like 7 lvl ups all at once. just dont let him get a single hit off on you or youre toast

>>10650879
I dabbled with it in the DS version, but that was when I was super deep into the game and started playing th sfc one and doing testing and once I realized they were pre designed floors with certain item and enemy layouts that then get affected by the luck system I lost a lot of interest and never really went back to doing other stuff.

>>10650875
Run away play is the name of the game

>>10650889
That's the testing I did, it's so heavily affected by the luck/weather system it turned me off in general.

>>10650805
Most shiren/MD games still have "true" roguelike post-game dungeons that don't let you carry over items/gear and true permadeath so I still think it doesn't make sense to call it a roguelite.

The fact of the matter is the majority of people don't consider roguelites to be things like MD/Shiren, they consider roguelites to be completely different games like binding of isaac or FTL. Games with completely different gameplay to roguelikes. I've also genuinely seen people try to argue that games like that are real "roguelikes" and MD isn't, which shows just how much all of these terms have been bastardized by people and zoomers who don't know what Rogue even is.

>>10650896
shiren is VERY tough. its completely unafraid of just slapping you upside the head with its cock
out of curiosity did you figure out the odds of certain weathers happening? just going off of feel, it seems like 80/20 bad weather/good weather, but that might just be negativity bias

you should try chocobos dungeon 2 instead
thats the one i started with. imo its a much better jumping off point into the genre than even the pokemon ones since those expect you to know pokemon moves/types etc
its got a lot more "lite" in its roguelite. still not easy, especially later on, but its generous enough that youll be able to stockpile and prepare for any really tough boss battles

the trick with chocobos dungeon 2 is that you actually level up your magic skills by using books. so use them liberally early on.
also, always keep some digging claws or those blastrocks that btfos walls around. if you happen across a dungeon shop thats near the stairs you can rob them blind, blow a hole through the wall, then run before you get killed. all that extra equipment can come in handy

Wait is this where Pokemon mystery dungeon comes from

>>10650938
I didn't really pay attention to the frequency but that sounds about right. I did the testing originally because here we were having a lot of threads and there was debate to whether the fortune teller affected anything or not. So a lot of my efforts went into getting it to generate the same map with two different weather patterns.

I did play Chocobo's and a couple of tje PMD games, even Etrian Mystery Dungeon which was a little better, but I think overall the series just isn't for me. I was also the guy in the thread posting a ton about Powder which just scratches all those itches much better for me.

>>10649668
Far and few between. I'm also not really into the developed tilesets that make it feel less like a roguelike and more like a jrpg. ASCII or simple sets are the most aesthetic for a rogue vibe. Mystery dungeon/rpguelites do have their place, I just think this quality of life bullshit goes way to far sometimes. Like, do you even want a roguelike at that point? Seems like you want a crpg but wanna feel dirty by calling it a 'roguelite'.

>>10650942
Yep, same devs

>>10650949
That's my biggest problem with the roguelike/roguelite thing. There are many people who are not interested in traditional rogue which is all well and good. But roguelike started to catch on as sort of a "cool" term for a game that seems hard so it gets slapped on things that don't really make sense, the term is just used to try and lend a weird form of street cred.

You fags will go crazy if you search for roguelikes on steam lol

>>10650949
>Like, do you even want a roguelike at that point?
yea see thats the thing
i dont necessarily wanna play rogue
id much rather something thats a little less harsh, as well as something i can pick up/put down at my leisure

imo chunsoft games are different enough to where they should just be considered "mystery dungeon" games. no one else makes them, and aside from being obviously inspired by rogues mechanics, they play differently enough that i just see it as an evolution or deviation of the original idea.

>>10650971
i know what youre saying
"roguelike" is, nowadays, usually just a way for publishers to advertise procedural generation in their games without actually saying the bad words: "procedural generation". its become something of a taboo thanks to modern AAA schlock. and its even worse now thanks to "ai" making its way into the normiesphere of consciousness. poor fuckers dont realize weve been using computers to generate shit for us since computers

>>10650985
i can imagine
>literally any game that has any amount of randomness to its levels
diablos a fucking roguelike if you want it bad enough. and we cant forget about the modern roguelike masterpieces: dark souls

>>10650996
>roguelike" is, nowadays, usually just a way for publishers to advertise procedural generation in their games without actually saying the bad words: "procedural generation"

This is it exactly. I have no issue with people liking and preferring either Mystery Dungeon games (I agree, they're basically it's own sub genre at this point) or some other game that uses procedurally generated levels/items/whatever but is action based or has lots of progression systems between runs. But when they put the name of a very specific genre with a very specific set traits onto any game that just has 1 or 2 it just muddies all waters for no good reason.

Personally why Powder remains one of my favorite roguelikes and games in general is that it is more like Rogue in many ways than even say Nethack. And I love these games now because Rogue itself was one of my favorite games growing up.

>>10645060
I presume 5 has more content and features?

>>10651010
Diablo's original design was literally Nethack in real time. There's a whole episode of roguelike radio devoted to it if you're interested, as well as most others if it's a genre you're interested in. Binding of Isaac was designed as Zelda mixed with a Roguelike fir example, not a game I care for but it was a very interesting listen.

>>10650740
reminder all remakes are inherently wonderful

>>10651017
>>10650996
ultimately it's just most people dont like perma death, so there's usually a default difficulty without it.

>>10651023
Haven't played 4 yet, but I do remember 5+ was said to have the most dungeons of any shiren game beaten only by the PC port of Asuka Kenzan

>>10650875
You should go out of your way to kill anything that isn't a run-breaker. If the enemy can't do anything to your inventory/insta-kill you BEEES, it's free experience.

>>10651032
And I get that to a degree, but to me permadeath is an important mechanic that is a key part of what makes these games fun. To me it really is like someone playing Gradius and expecting the power ups to carry over when they start a new game so they can grind their way to victory

>>10651071
you can get yourself into trouble hanging around too long tho. especially if the weather is bad. youll get jumped by a monster trap, or step on one of those godforsaken traps that fills the whole floor with traps, fall in pitfalls back a floor, get poisoned unnecessarily, waste/ruin your food etc

my strat is similar to yours, leeching as much early exp as possible. but i try to get the monsters to level up on each other if i can. then you can cheese them with a scroll or an herb and get like 6 or 7 lvls at once. lategame is when you should switch to playing keep-away with most of the enemies imo

>>10651092
In terms of Shiren, the 'metaprogression' is extremely slight to imperceptible. For example, the only thing that goes up in Shiren 5 is your mercenary party member's levels. But these fuckers need to be constantly babysat just to survive, and they will inevitably die before the final boss, so for all intents and purposes, Shiren is roguelike.

>>10651095
Yeah, use common sense, but for the most part, you should always kill anything that can't touch your inventory.

>>10651096
lol yea shiren sure FEELS like permadeath
it certainly doesnt feel like youre progressing at all between runs. and in most cases thats because you literally ARENT

>>10651109
Yep, Shiren is at least the most unforgiving roguelike. I just remembered that you can also stick a tag on your equipment to get it back after a failed run, but it will almost certainly be too expensive.

>>10651096
I have the most experience with the first one and little after that other than otherD games, but I think calling the first one a roguelike is kind of pointless, but whatever. We're in a world where it gets put on everything and shiren is at least closer than most but nowhere near close enough for me. I agree with the guy they should just be considered their own thing.

>>10651113
roguelite*

>>10651113
>Yep, Shiren is at least the most unforgiving roguelike.

What other roguelikes have you played and beaten?

>>10651117
I misspelled roguelite as you will see in the post above yours. Only Torneko 1 and the PMD games.

>>10651113
is that a remake thing? or one of the newer games?
i remember chocobos dungeon had such items, but i cant remember using anything like that in shiren (the first one). i only ever remember (infrequently) using the delivery guy. and lol most of the time i sent him back with just whatever, or nothing. and iirc you cant send pots back with him

>>10651134
That's from 5. And again, unless you're grinding low level runs to amass funds, that tagged sword is going to be way, way too expensive to ever reclaim.

Is Mystery Dungeon the first game series to do the password rescue mechanic or did they steal that from another roguelike? It's always been something I thought was really cool about MD.

of the various vidyas that get plastered with the term "roguelike", chunsoft games are probably the most closely related to the actual game "rogue"

still its kind of a stretch. they just play so differently.
mystery dungeons take into account that you can make incremental progress, and so theyre designed around that, which makes a more slow burn.
rogue on the other hand is always a one-shot, and so its designed with THAT in mind, which ends up feeling a lot more frantic

>>10651162
Yes, that is what roguelite means. I don't know why this causes so much butthurt, it's one of the most intuitive meanings in vidya.
>turn-based, tile-based, randomly generated dungeons
>does death leave you with literally nothing?
Roguelike
>do you have literally anything?
Roguelite

>>10651169
roguelites dont tend to be turn based. the reason they're called lites is because they lean away from the standard roguelike. they could potentially have everything be different and still be a roguelite.

>>10651197
No, they are called roguelites because they don't have permadeath. This could not be easier. I am fully convinced that it is trolls trying to complicate this.

>>10651206
it's not hard to tell that's too steep, there's far too many games to ignore. your definition is off.

>>10651209
>that's too steep
What, specifically? How is it too "steep"?

Personally I am going to doff my fedora and talk about how anything other than this definition is not a roguelike before I chug my Mt. Dew Code red, crack my knuckles and get some gaming on.

>>10651214
because roguelites that differ from your definition exist already, keep up.

>>10651313
How is that too steep? What is the cutoff? The only meaningful difference between the two is what happens after you die.

>>10651162
>of the various vidyas that get plastered with the term "roguelike", chunsoft games are probably the most closely related to the actual game "rogue"

You have a hilariously limited understanding of these games.

>>10651317
>The only meaningful difference between the two is what happens after you die.

Not him but that's a significant enough change alone.

>>10652869
Glad you agree with me, you fucking retard.

>>10652895
Meh, you were both talking around things and I did care to read back far enough to care which of you was arguing what. True permadeath is easily as important as randomly generated levels and turn based gameplay. Removing any of the 3 puts whatever game it is into another genre.

>>10652946
>Meh
Extremely low testosterone. See a doctor.

>>10653008
Sorry I didn't get all upset and start ranting faggot a lot lol.

>>10653032
No, you surely did that, but you did it in an extremely faggoty manner.
>meh
>lol

>>10651071
>You should go out of your way to kill anything that isn't a run-breaker
If you do that in the postgame PMD dungeons you'll just run out of PP and be powerless when the game forces you to face a seriously threatening enemy.

>>10653043
>muh PP
Not a real game. Your own remake did away with it.

>>10652895
>they are called roguelites because they don't have permadeath.
you're wrong though, retard.
you were already told there's roguelites with permadeath

>>10653046
?

>>10653049
And you were told that they aren't roguelites. Seems we're at a standoff. /vr/ can't stop sucking my dick

>>10653041
You still sound upset lol and over what?

>>10653059
You work for Langley. Lol and over what?

>>10653065
>You work for Langley

Is this some new kiddie meme I'm unfamiliar with?

>>10653075
No, it is calling you a glownigger in no uncertain terms.
>what's a glownigger?
See your manual.

>>10653081
Sorry, I am past caring about the vernacular of children and whatever your latest meme talk gibberish is supposed to mean. I'm too busy with good games to bother.

>>10653104
>you're a child because i said so, also i give up on this and am overturning the board
Concession accepted. Also your faggot god Moloch is a bitch ;)

>>10653108
You talk like a child and are using their meme phrases, what other conclusion am I supposed to come to? I don't care what your buzzwords mean, I'm not going out of my way to learn them.

>>10653109
Molochian bitch is mad.

>>10653112
What am I even supposed to be upset about? That you act like a ten year old having a tantrum? Is that supposed to upset me? Why? Are you capable of saying anything with any substance at all?

>>10653121
>What am I even supposed to be upset about?
You being a traitor to humanity and your country. And to God, but you don't believe because you're a little pissant bitch boy.

>>10653123
And why am I a traitor to my country? Because I won't google what a langley glownigger is because I don't give a shit about 2024 schoolyard slang?

Why don't you tell us about the roguelikes you're playing currently? I think we both know the answer to that.

>>10653104
>pic not related

>>10653197
What's one you prefer? I'm glad to hear why.

>>10653208
I prefer you bleeding out in a gutter.
>why
Because you chose jews over humanity.

>>10653221
Jews and America are committing mass genocide and leading towards another world war, why my enjoying roguelikes makes you think I support them is a little weird. But at least you admit you just in this thread to have a tantrum and don't have anything of value to say about the genre in general. How shocking!

>>10653256
I posted multiple times showing my appreciation for the genre, and you shat on me. So now turnabout is fair play, you fucking kike.
>muh too steep
>muh roguelite
You could have avoided this.

>>10653268
Ahh, you seem to have mistaken me for someo else. I have never used the word steep in this thread. This fun exchange we had even started when I agreed with you. >>10652869 >>10652895 thats why this whole thing is comical to me. Literally all you've done for hours is throw out more and more random childlike insults and not a shred of talking about roguelike mechanics. Now you're literally ranting about jews and moloch. It makes it hard to take anything you say without a shrug and an eyeroll.

But please, back on topic >>10653197 care to explain why you think Powder is a bad example of a roguelike? When I asked for one you liked better you said you'd rather bleed out in a ditch, so again it's hard to take you seriously or assume you even know what you're talking about at all. But go ahead and prove me wrong if you can. Give a run down on why you said that.

>>10653295
Didn't read.

>>10653297
How shocking, the angry 10 year old who claims to be a roguelike expert can't read more than a couple sentences and is incapable of articulating anything intelligent on the genre. I don't think you've ever actually played a roguelike.

>>10653306
I never claimed to be an expert, you insecure faggot. I actually outright admitted multiple times that roguelites are casual roguelikes. I never had any delusion that I was elite for playing the literal easy mode. You have delusional schizophrenia and you need to see a doctor.

>>10653310
But you call Powder bad, can't explain why and are still just ranting like a child. So why am I supposed to care about anything you say?

>>10653321
I have no idea what Powder is. You're inferring that everyone is the same poster. Again, you have delusional schizophrenia.

>>10653208
>>10653295
Powder is more roguelite in my opinion, with that whole pantheon system, and the ports to all the strange consoles. (like GBA and DS). I prefer Angband, it's a no nonsense, successor to Moria, styled after Larn. It's got a lot of variants that are pretty interesting in their own right. Shiren is a lot like it, with its warehouse to store things in. but Angband has perma death, so it's just for storage on your run only.
>When I asked for one you liked better you said you'd rather bleed out in a ditch
wasn't me

>>10653268
>muh too steep
you know for a fact there's roguelites with permadeath. your definition is too steep you know this.

>>10653336
Again, there is no meaningful difference between a lite and a like if you say this. If you disagree, articulate the meaningful difference. You won't, because you're retarded.

>>10653326
Then explain why you said this >>10653197 if you don't even know anything about it. You're clearly only here to troll and have a tantrum over games you know nothing about. Even you must see why this is comically ironic to me.

>>10653331
I don't see how the pantheon system makes it less like a roguelike, but if you care to elaborate I'm all ears. Othet than that it has true permadeath, grid based and turn based combat, random level generation and complex item interactions. Other than not being ascii based it hits every major roguelike criteria. I would say it's actually more a roguelike than something like nethack because of it's simple "dive to the bottom on this dungeon and get out" which to me feels a lot like Rogue which is what got me into these games in the first place. >>10651017

>>10653357
You have delusional schizophrenia. And I'm starting to realize that you and your ilk are the problem with /vr/.

>>10653368
I am just replying to who replies to me. Someone said that, I asked why. If you chose to start responding as if you were thst person and not point out from the start you didn't say that it's not my problem.

idk I played one on SNES with some bird and there was no endboss which was lame AF

>>10653374
Welcome to 4chan, you fucking retard. Say some stupid shit, you will surely get multiple people responding and calling you out as the retard that you are. Abuelita babied you.

>>10653384
I'm sorry your upset that you entered a discussion you know nothing about as an excuse to rant about Jews lol.

>>10653403
I said nothing about jews in that post, you fully realized that you lost, so you used that as a 'gotcha'. Retards like you belong in chains.

>>10653406
Meh, telling you children apart is a chore I find hard to care about. If you have something insightful to say about roguelikes then go for it, otherwise you're just making noise like mr moloch rant kiddo.

>>10653436
>meh
You're the same faggot from last night. I had the excuse of being drunk for humoring you, I'm not doing it again. Final (You), you miserable bastard.

>>10653442
What an insightful response! I am sure you had much more articulate things to say when you were drunk off your ass.

>>10653336
List some.

>>10626673
Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Red.

>>10653780
>>10653336
The only one I can think of that fits is Diablo in hardcore mode but no one calls that a roguelite. Otherwise permadeath seems like the first thing to get thrown out the window, but I'm also very curious if there are other examples.

>>10653357
Nethack is the defacto dive to the bottom and get out roguelike. Angband is more of a dive to the bottom only. but there's like 100 floors.

>>10653780
most obviously aren't retro, go sort Steam by roguelite, there's a lot of them these days, and perma death is fairly standard.

>>10654810
Give a couple examples at least.

>>10650985
Morbid curiosity got the better of me and I decided to take a look up rougelikes Steam and holy shit the absolute fucking state.
>city builder
>deckbuilder
>card battler
>mecha game
>auto battler
This was just the first few games that came up. In hindsight, using "rougelite" as a catch-all term for anything deemed not a rougelike instead of giving it some sort of concise definition is probably what lead to the genre being in the state it's in today.

>>10655660
It's like the term "souls-like" that got dragged through the mud so much that it stopped meaning anything at all. Roguelike as a term caught on because it sounds "hardcore" but no one actually wants games that have challenge, they want progression with a persistent character or world you can grind till you win. Mystery Dungeon being lumped in with roguelikes was always the beginning of the end.

>>10653807
Why red specifically?

>>10655671
soulslike means you leave items behind when you die you can retrieve, and there's emphasis on dodging attacks and beating a bullet sponge down to death.

you guys just want everything to be "Dark Souls" #4, and Nethack #2

>>10658283
I don't want everything to be nethack 2, but if a game comes out claiming to be in the same genre as nethack 2 I'd rather it actually be like that game than a third person action shooter loot hunting game with slightly random dungeons. There is no reason to say a game like that is in the same genre as Nethack, lumping them together just makes genre terms pointless.

>>10626673
Fatal Labyrinth is the better console roguelike.

>>10660124
How so?

>>10647168
I'm using the same emulator as you and I've been getting a bug where the background seem to take up the entire pause screen if one exists, do you know how to fix it? I'm using glide.

>>10660142
It's a real roguelike with true permadeath designed to be played and beaten without progression. It's almost just Rogue with graphics so a good entry into the genre.

>>10660806
In the year 2024 I don’t want to play a clone of a game that was designed in the 70s.

>>10661762
Which is all well and good for you. But as someone from the 70's for whom that was one of my favorite games, I do want to play clones and variations on it. That's why along with others who felt similarly created a genre of games that are like that. So it seems logical that you as someone who does not want to play those games and I someone who does want to play that game would both be served well by having a specific term for it so I can find what I want and you can avoid what you don't want.

That's the real reason roguelike and roguelite are both important monikers even if they're both a bit silly sounding.

>>10626673
Let's post our saves! I have two copies so I can rescue myself but I think this is the one I've played more.

>>10662374
Sure thing

>>10662374
>I have two copies so I can rescue myself
You didn’t beat the game.

>>10626715
Holy shit I haven’t seen a tripfag since like 2015

>>10662374
>>10662468
I'm jealous, Road to the End still eludes me.

>>10662815
Lol I've beat the game without resucing myself numerous times, I mostly have two copies bec I was that obsessed.

>>10662851
I thought it would also take me ages to beat it. But honestly, it comes down to knowing the strats, and who better to learn from than the japanese speedrunners that play this game for thousands of hours? Let me repost some tips I gave out on the other shiren thread on /vrpg/:

For Road to the End, learn to steal effectively, ID items (maybe just use the wiki for that), and use staves and other items to effectively avoid combat because in most cases, run away play is the best option. And if you didn't know already, you can make staff bolts ricochet off walls. Also, you can use the push and pull staves to move the stairs + traps. They become invaluable for theft and getting the two run winning items (scout+wall clip bracelet)

>>10662923
>using powergaming strats
You didn’t beat the game.

>>10663397
You're trying too hard. Shires from the first entry is never meant to be beaten with a clean save file. You can beat it with luck without using the progression shit but it's not intended that way.

>>10663443
I think the warehouses/metaprogression is more of an optional crutch for the main game in shiren. Last I checked, all Shiren game's main story can be beaten with no carry ins

>>10663459
Again, I tested shiren 1 very heavily and while that's theoretically possible it is highly dependent on luck due to the weather system. Making at least 50% of empty runs very likely closer to 80% are flat out impossible. And that is taking into account having gone through the game enough to have the companys help you. A first run on a completely empty save file is designed to be essentially impossible, that's partly why all the companions fuck with you the first times you meet them. It's designed to be a multi-run grind.

If you think I'm wrong, feel free to try it yourself. Start a completely new file, don't ask the fortune teller what the weather will be, just go in blind and empty and try to win.

>>10663503
>>10663459
Or, here's another challenge if you don't believe. Just start a completely empty run even with companions with a bad weather prediction like hot winds, cold etc and then try to beat it even save scumming to your heart's content. See how far you get.

>>10663503
That's been done, though. Check out every speed run for the game. Sure, they might kill themselves if they dont feel the run is going well, but a sign of a skilled player is that they can make do with any situation the game throws at them

>>10663527
Naw. Killing yourself because the run isn't going well proves what I say. The record in Nethack unless it's been beat since is something like 40 runs in a row and the guy who did it says that last loss was because of one dumb mistake. That's a little extreme but the point is a game designed to be the same the first time you play it from the 500th time you play it is fundamentally different from one that expects a persistent grind to make it easier.

>>10655660
>>10655671
>>10663590

It's not just roguelikes that have been ruined by progression systems. There are almost no classically designed games like Gradius, Contra etc now where it's made to be one refined game that is tuned so it's a good challenge every time you play it. Everything now is just skinner boxes with long tutorials that make you think you're getting better when in reality the game is made to get easier and easier the more you play so it's no longer about building skill, just sinking time into it.

>>10655660
>>10664970
Slay the Spire is a great game.

>>10665681
So is Burnout Paradise, but that's not a reason to market it as a fighting game.

>>10664970
The longer I play, this feeling sets in. But in the end of the day, that's all games. They're all just there to waste your time. I mean, even knowledge is useless. So what, you learned that the bats on level 25 do 50 damage. Or that the skeletons take 2 hits to kill. Who cares? Just cause you memorized some details doesn't make it more skillful. I mean, why don't any Roguelikes just tell you everything beforehand. Tell me exactly how much damage I'll do. Tell me exactly how much health they have and how much damage they'll do. Tell me the percentages of items available before I identify. Is it really skill to remember all this stuff?

>>10666790
>I mean, why don't any Roguelikes just tell you everything beforehand. Tell me exactly how much damage I'll do.
You can read all the strats you want, but until you experience that one hilarious death that drills it into your head, you won't actually 'learn'. For example:
>Shiren 5, last floor before the end of this one dungeon
>definitely going to win, i have everything i need
>use that staff that paralyzes + teleports an enemy to the stairs on a tank because their shots are basically insta-death
>use Swap Staff to switch me and the tank to the stairs
>didn't know that Swap Staff unparalyzes them
>he instantly turns around and shoots me
It's the little intricacies of items interacting with each other that you really need to get.

>>10666790
>I mean, why don't any Roguelikes just tell you everything beforehand. Tell me exactly how much damage I'll do. Tell me exactly how much health they have and how much damage they'll do. Tell me the percentages of items available before I identify. Is it really skill to remember all this stuff?

For those of us who like these games that's part of the fun. Which for the nth time is not to say everyone should enjoy that kind of game. But for those of us who do it would be great to not have them lumped in with completely different kinds of games because you want to say you play something called a "roguelike" but don't actually like the kind of game that term represents.

>>10666790
Most of these guys just look everything up on gameFAQS and then pretend like they totally figured it out themselves.

>>10667743
No one has ever had a problem with people using faqs, but what he's talking about is just not wanting to learn the game at all or have the discovery element taken out. That's the whole point of random items, you find an oak wand and a cloudy potion but even though you know potentially what they might be, figuring that out for this run of the game is part of the fun of the strategy.

>>10667743
would reading an FAQ help?
i thought the names of everything get randomized every run?

>>10668570
It helps so you know if you find say an oak wand that it will be one of the types of wands possible in whatever game it is. That's just basic knowledge that most people use a guide for since the days of Rogue, but you will also figure them out yourself while playing if you choose.

The more trick is, when you find that oak wand, what do you do with it? You could zap it at yourself in hopes it's a wand of speed or invisibility or something, but what if it's a wand of fureballs? And then it's like that for all the various random things you find.

>>10668582
A fureball is a furry fireball of fury

>>10661762
Then go back to /v/ you fucking tourist.

>>10668653
fuhererball

>>10668582
yea but idk its been a while since i played shiren 1, so maybe im remembering wrong. but while those oak staves will all be whatever oak staves are on that particular run (for ex switching staff), if you die and have to do another run, and find another oak staff it could just as easily be anything else

tho again, maybe im mixing it up with other mystery dungeons
i just dont see how reading an FAQ for these games would be any more effective than just trying and experimenting for yourself
certainly less fun that way

>>10668653
>>10669259
A wand that turns you into a furry sounds like something you'd find in IVAN

>>10669461
>but while those oak staves will all be whatever oak staves are on that particular run (for ex switching staff), if you die and have to do another run, and find another oak staff it could just as easily be anything else

Yeah that's standard feature roguelikes from Rogue on down. Reading an FAQ will tell you what the possibilities are, but part of the game is that figuring it out. Depending on the game though it can be a little obtuse what some things are.

When I was playing a lot of Rogue as a kid it was just one of the games in a big pile that had been put on our computer by the guy who set it up so I didn't even have the instruction man let alone a FAQ. Most stuff I kind of figured out over time, but there was a scroll that always freaked me out because you read it and the message is "you hear maniacal laughter in the distance". I would often die soon after mostly because it was so hard and I barely knew what I was doing but for years assumed it was some kind of curse. Turns out it's a quite handy scroll of scare monsters, though I also had no clue how to make use of it.

>>10669520
i was patient zero for mystery dungeon games in the west, and had a pretty similar experience.

i got b8d into buying chocobos dungeon 2 since i wanted more final fantasy, and it had a chocobo on the cover. i didnt get more final fantasy, and instead got incredibly confused. i remember being too scared to use any of the items at all for a long time. likely negativity bias, but it seemed like most times id get poisoned, or lose control of my character, or something similarly awful would happen and id die.
once i figured out how the identifying system worked, things became much more manageable. id spend the first few ez floors testing or id-ing things, or throwing items at enemies to see what they did, then make note of it

if there was any documentation in english on wtf any of it was back in the late 90s, i certainly didnt find it. even searching "mystery dungeon" wasnt particularly helpful as i dont even think shiren was translated until many years later. i was just stuck with this strange fever dream game that literally no one else id ever met had heard of.
either way, its doubtful that an FAQ wouldve been too terribly helpful. even if you KNOW everything going in, its all risk/reward and actually using the items effectively. no guide can tell you how to do that right imo

>>10669582
That's a lot what my experience with Rogue was like. We got this computer and my dad's co worker who set it up just stuck a bunch of games on there. Most were pretty familiar like q'bert, spy hunter, zaxxon, Asteroids shit like that. Then there was this fucked up game that felt like D&D which I was also starting to get into and every time I died because I never beat it till almost 20 years later but it was crazy and scary and addictive. Every time I died it felt like I could have done something different.

>>10669582
>buying a japanese game when you only speak english
lmao even

>>10670817
Chocobo's Dungeon 2 was released in English though...

>>10670817
>
LOLE
el oh el, even

irony is it actually wouldnt have changed much since the entire concept of a mystery dungeon game was completely new to the west, and the games are designed so at floor 1, youre clueless on literally every item you pick up anyways