/vr/ - Retro Games

That's literally in the game though. We got that and more.

>>10590639

why couldnt Laguna be 100% of the plot?

>>10590630
>>10590645
This is my thoughts on FF8 too. I love the world, I love the battle system. I hate Squall and most of the rest of the cast ( except Selphie and Irvine, they rock) and then the game gives you this alternate peek where you could be playing Laguna who is charming and wonderful. Only to rip it away and have you me stuck with mopey Mr. Whatever for the rest.

As a stupid high school kid I didn't like the Laguna segments because it took me away from the "real" story. Now as an adult rapidly approaching middle age Laguna is my favorite RPG protagonist of all time. Your life not turning out the way you plan, reflecting on happy times and being weathered but not becoming jaded? It hits me in the chest every single time.

i do wish we got more laguna, but i've grown to like all the other stuff over time as well.
think squall is actually a pretty cool guy when you don't make him into an asshole.

>>10590630
Ff8 is for edgelords

is squall actually mopey or did the translation make him that way?

>>10590741
He's not mopey as much as he's just an aloof asshole.

>>10590645
>Dorky ex soldier guy who travels the world with his bros in search of fame and love and becomes president of space.
See now that's a story.

everyone in this game's core cast is awful

What is actually behind the Squall / Laguna plot split? What was on Squeeenix's mind doing that? Someone needs to ask the japs there what was up with that, doubt they'll give a straight answer though
I see it the other way, I think they should've focused more on Squall and Seifer. The Laguna shit is just generic and melodramatic as fuck

>>10590741
From what I've read a they generally use 'whatever' in the English version instead of 'sorry' or squall apologising in the Japanese version. He's meant to be more like Shinji from eva instead of an edgy numetal/emo kid

>>10590838
It's a story about relationships and about how people need people. And it also shows why Squall's way of thinking is counterproductive and he needs to go through the same kind of personal evolution that Laguna went through when he was young before being able to find his place in the world. And also how Laguna and Julia weren't meant for each other in the way they thought but their kids were, solidifying their connection in a way neither of them could have expected.

>>10590839
not sure why it took 20 years for someone to point out that discrepancy. Feels like I've been on final fantasy forums for years and only finding that out like last year

>>10590809
They're too vacuous to even register as awful. Awful might, at least, leave an impression.

>>10590861
The problem with that is the game doesn't actually really convey Squall getting close to anyone because nobody has anything go on that might require or imply him actually getting close with. Even his relationship with Rinoa feels less like a maturation and more like her bugging him till he finally concedes to her romantic advances. he doesn't especially bond or grow close to Selphie or Zell, there's no growing signs of respect with Irvine, he blew Quistis off practically as soon as the game started and that is NEVER followed up on.

>>10590897
People have known that for a while, they don't mention it as much because it's not really the point. If you change it to "sorry" it doesn't really change the character as much as you want to think it does. At best it makes him feel like slightly less of a douche but it doesn't really address the actual problem.

>>10590908
It's true, Squall's change comes very late and happens like a lightswitch. You see no character development and then out of the blue he's saving Rinoa in outer space and finally "gets it." It could have been handled way better though I'm pretty sure the writers didn't intend to write Squall as mean as he came off, which made the change jarring. Zell can be annoying but he's harmless. Squall spends most of the game being not just standoffish but really shitty to everybody who are just trying to be his friend. Maybe it was a translation thing as anon above said and by being less mean the sudden realization later on doesn't come off as too little, too late.

>>10590908
>he blew Quistis off practically as soon as the game started and that is NEVER followed up on
I'm not sure what you mean. It's followed up both in the main plot and in terms of her character development. Quistis had strong feelings for Squall because she took the role of Squall's big sister when Elone left (muh orphanage, muh memory loss, muh GFs). When she's fired as an instructor she throws herself at him because she's desperate to be a regular teenager and have social relationships with other teenagers. She never really wanted to bang Squall - she was just spiralling and confused (muh orphanage, muh memory loss, muh GFs).

>>10590979
>Maybe it was a translation thing
It absolutely is. Squall in particular suffers from the poor English translation. In fact, in the scene mentioned above where Quistis pours her heart out to Squall he's much less cold. The whole "...whatever" thing doesn't even exist in the Japanese script. A lot of the edgy "...whatever" lines are actually Squall apologizing for being a dick in Japanese. The English translators decided to make him much more cold.

>>10590630
An interesting example of a video game that needed to take itself _more_ seriously. Far too many nonsense plot twists and winks at the audience.

>>10591026
>A lot of the edgy "...whatever" lines are actually Squall apologizing for being a dick in Japanese.
You're grossly misrepresenting reality here. The word he says is indeed "sorry," but that's not what he means. He says it any time he's challenged as a means of escaping from conversation. Rinoa even yells at him for his fake apologies if you mess up the FH concert date.

>>10590726
eh kills sorceress and doesnt afraid of anything

>>10591142
Really, if you take out the other party members and the introspection, FF8 is just 20 hours of Squall walking/driving/sailing around the world and beating up everything.

>>10591154
Oi Grieva my mate

>>10591105
Headcanon.

>>10591154
Isn't that every RPG if you remove the plot?

>>10591394
retarded nigger, learn japanese

>>10591394
Whatever.

>>10591394
Even if you can't read Japanese, you should know that there's something off with the interpretation that he's "apologizing for being a dick." The idea of him trying to improve/repair someone's opinion of him doesn't fit his world-view. He wants to avoid getting close to people at all costs.

>>10591791
Yeah, his "sorry" is sarcastic / smartass in intent.

My problem with FFVIII has always been Rinoa. She’s the worst girl in the history of the series.

>>10590706
delet this

>>10591791
It's probably more like "sorry" as in "sorry, but I can't help." It's the kind of sorry someone offers when asked for money by a panhandler. It's a polite version of "leave me alone." Translating it to "whatever" is probably because that was understood at the time as the typical Gen X dismissive response in America from bitter youths. Today it's evolved into "okay, boomer."

>>10592353
Squall is Canadian? Banging Rinoa makes even more sense now

The problem is that even if we accept t he bad translation as a factor, which I will to a certain extent, the bigger problem is that there's no actual moments with the cast of characters TOO actually mistranslate. He spends almost no time with anyone, has few moments of introspection or dressing down from other people about his actions or personality. His growth and arc aren't just badly translated, they're practically nonexistent.

I'm on disc 3 and so far Laguna's story is definitely my favorite part of it.

Squall and Rinoa just aren't that endearing. Theirs is a story of how a douche with abandonment issues becomes less douchey, and a thot who is hung up on her ex becomes less of a thot.

Meanwhile Laguna's is the story of a man who went through war, lost everything including an immature love he thought was real love, and found something so good it was worth giving everything up for... plus he's just very likable.

Still, I'm just glad Squall has grown a bit from disc 1. Still never really had to confront who awful he was, nor does how much everyone likes and respects him feel earned, but the fact he's starting to show some care and concern goes miles when initially he only had bad things to say (or rather, think) about everyone.

>>10592840
>nor does how much everyone likes and respects him feel earned
The point of showing Quistis and Rinoa mocking Squall by copying what he says is to show that the party as a whole sees through his bullshit to some extent. If you want to dumb it down to the simplest level, Squall is the tsundere love interest in any harem anime.

>>10592847
Maybe, but I keep harping on his internal monologue because, at least for the first disc, he's just a dick in and out. Now the argument could be made that actions speak louder than words (or thoughts in this case) do, but because his inner voice is so bitter and hateful to everyone and thing around him it makes his actions seem out of character. This starts to somewhat get addressed midway through disc 2, but it still isn't handled super well.

Basically, a tsundere's inner feelings betray their actions, Squall is the inverse of that.

>>10590838
What I've gather from developer interviews is that there were supposed to be parallel dimensions. Or parallel "presents" - as it's written in the help menu.
I think they were going for a DC style "crisis" event. Where "Time Compression" was a merging of continuities.

Laguna was originally name Seifer. Or Zephyr.
He was suppose to be part of a squad named "Squall".
The first half of the game would have followed Laguna, and then the second half of the story would inexplicitly switch to this Squall character leaving the player to wonder what his connection to Laguna is. His namesake couldn't be a coincidence.

Initially there was only 1 witch/sorceress. Named something like "Eternia". Kitas said that the ending would have had them move to a dimension without a sorceress.
He also said that Rinoa and Ultimecia were conceived as different characters, but he admits the R=U theory makes a lot of sense. He wasn't the sole writer of the game.

>>10592879
>but he admits the R=U theory makes a lot of sense
When did he say that? The most recent I've heard him talk about it was when he guested on that DFFOO stream that gets posted all the time by R=U fanatics.

>>10592879
It's not an FF8 thread without schizo-kun shitposting

>>10591690
Honestly, yeah. I realised that as I was making the post, but I really felt like using the image.

>>10592869
Because internally Squall is trying to convince himself he's the anti-social lone wolf he wants everyone to perceive him as, but deep down he's not really that person and people around him can see through his facade.
His worst moments of being a dick are when he gets pressured - especially emotionally - and his response is to retreat into his "I can't be hurt if I'm not close with anyone" mentality.
Quistis sees through his nonsense from the start of the game but lets her own feelings get in the way and makes things worse by trying to appeal to Squall's feelings when he clearly isn't open to it.
Rinoa sees through it immediately from when they first meet and is pretty much calling him out on his bullshit the entire game.

>>10592926
I'd say his worst moments are interacting with various NPC's. Basically anyone who talks with him he just instantly wants them to shut up and go away, or he'll take whatever advice they give him as a personal slight. If it's an older character he'll just straight up insult them in his mind.

>>10593006
I beat you're referring to that newspaper editor in Timber.

>>10593013
Also the older lunch lady and some other NPC's. It's funny, because one NPC on the second disc reacts to him the way he usually interacts with others and he's like "wait... is that how I sound? That's not very pleasant..."

>>10592840
>nor does how much everyone likes and respects him feel earned
This is a fundamental problem with the game's main premise. You know it's going to be a problem when Quistis is a teacher at a military academy at the ripe old age of 18. Its weird because Garden is basically a training academy for child soldiers pretending to be a high school but the game doesn't acknowledge the fundamental fuckery with that and presents it as either inherently good or at worst a very necessary evil. When Cid decides to make Squall, who graduated like a week ago, the leader of the entire operation it feels like anime drama at its worst. The characters are badasses because everyone just tells you they are. RPGs always give characters nonsense ages (my ass Cid Highwind is only 32) but FFVIII really wants to sell you on the high school angle but then drops the ball with everything else going on.

>>10592847
What ends up fucking it up is, again, just how much Squall really shouldn't be well liked. Aeris teased Cloud a lot too but that's because he was pretending to be a badass and she saw the insecure kid underneath. It was endearing and she wanted him to stop putting up a front. With Squall it comes off way more shallow since Rinoa's first interaction with him is telling him how hot he is so it gives the impression that the only reason everyone puts up with his shit is because he's handsome enough to get away with it. Given that everyone is 17 that might be the most realistic aspect but it doesn't do the audience any favors when it comes to the likeability of the cast.

>>10593106
Ah... so it sounds like they aren't going to be addressing the whole "child soldier" angle or how messed up it is to dress up a program that trains kids a teenagers to be killer mercenaries as a fun little college.

I love a lot of aspects about this game, but the writing... it has its highs but man does it have some oversights which create some lows.

>>10593134
Evangelion has its problems but it does at least internally recognize how fucked up the situation is. The popular reaction to Evangelion though? Not so much. Looking at FFVIII as if it were written by or for someone who was Evangelion obsessed in the 90s but didn't really pay attention to the plot and just liked the girls and robot fights? It starts making perfect sense.

>>10593161
Squall's design feels like they cribbed off of Heero Yuy from Gundam Wing.

>>10593106
Given all the time travel nonsense and such, I wouldn't be surprised if Cid is fully aware of the time loop via Edea and made Squall leader because he already knew it works out.

>>10593171
>>10593161
You two are absolutely retarded, FF8 has exactly zero in common with Gundam Wing or Evangelion aside from coming from Japan

>>10593121
I can agree it's done as well and it does seem finding Squall hot is what drew her attention in the first place, but Rinoa's first interaction with Squall is her essentially no-selling his attitude because she sees through it right away. Their dance is one of the first times Squall starts to let his guard down, but then she sees Cid and fucks off and the whole awkward scenes with Quistis go down immediately after and Squall is on full guard again.
His character growth isn't linear; he makes progress but gets knocked back later quite a bit.

>>10593182
I think it definitely cribs from the general atmosphere of pop anime back then. Themes and stylings.

>>10593202
It's definitely more a pacing problem than the concept itself. Those moments are brief and then you have long stretches of game where you get nothing. Its like the GF causing amnesia thing. The game does set it up but in such a forgettable way at the beginning that by the time it comes around you, ironically or poetically depending on how intentional you think it was, don't remember. The game will do something in hour 30 that was set up in hour 3 but not include any callbacks to jog your memory.

>>10593237
The GF amnesia is hard to defend. It was silly to make a critical plot point completely able to be missed because all of the references to it prior to the reveal are optional.

>>10592886
Why ask a question you already know the answer to?
Kitas showed his script on screen.

>>10593361
Because he said absolutely nothing of the sort on that stream.

>>10593361
Kitase said a lot of things. Like if he were to make a FF8 Remake, R=U wouldn't be confirmed.

He also basically said "I'm too old for this shit"
With the FF7 remake in it's NINTH year of development and only 2/3 complete, there's no way they're doing that again for FF8.

Genuine question, but did Laguna really just abandon his kid to go be president of space?

Like, cool for him, but didn't his family get the shit end of the stick?

The game we got was better. Laguna would make a fun expansion though.

>>10593176
I think this is right, and frequently overlooked. Cid is aware of everything, why wouldn't he be? He doesn't use GFs and he was older when the playable cast were children at the orphanage. A lot of plot aspects that seem like "coincidences" are actually Cid selecting the cast and orchestrating events.

>>10590645
laguna was a retard

So if Seifer was inspired by the B movie starring Laguna, what inspired Squall? Watching his older self kick the shit out of Ultimecia just before she passed her powers onto Edea to create the time loop?

>>10593121
>Squall really shouldn't be well liked.
I can get past this. What I never understood as even plausible was how Squall was made the leader of Balamb Garden with almost no experience.

It's an unsophisticated escapist fantasy for teenagers. That's all you need to know.

>>10590839
Here's all of them

>>10594042
Seifer having the same stance as Laguna from the movie and talking about being a sorceress knight makes me think it's true. Squalls inspiration I think is just feeling ellone and abandoned in the world and wanting to be strong enough to face life's hardships by himself without having to rely on others.

>>10594240
>all of them are the same meaning/intent as "whatever"
Nothingburger, like the majority of translation complaints

>>10594240
>japanese phrase is english
Clearly made by a very intelligent adult

>>10590630
What shitty fighting game ending is that and what character do I beat it with?

>>10594395
Tekken 2, it's Jun's secret ending.

>>10594395
Kensei: Sacred Fist

>>10594382
It's from the legends of localization article, he lists the japanese in the actual article.

https://legendsoflocalization.com/squalls-whatever-line-in-japanese-final-fantasy-viii/

Long story short it looks like this game's localizer(s) just REALLY wanted Squall to have a catchphrase, and I guess it worked because it's all people say about him. It really seems like FF8 compared to FF7 had a worse localizer given better working conditions. It's pretty interesting.

I think people like R=U because it's one of the few fan theories that checks all the boxes. It creates no plot holes, doesn't rely on flagrant leaps in logic, and is consistent with the tone of the game. Plus it just gives Ultimecia some much needed plot relevance. Edea would have been a perfect last boss but it seemed like Square was hell bent on a fake out whether it was wise or not. It's not quite FFIV territory but it's in the same zip code. U=R arguably makes more sense than the way the game handles it, especially when you consider Ultimecia's motivation and the mindfuck ending sequence.

>>10594515
"Whatever" would work better if the game had voice acting. Part of the problem is that it's hard to convey tone and a lot of Squall's "whatever"s are implied to carry different implications ranging from "get the fuck away from me" to "please don't make me deal with this" to "I'm sorry I can't open up." The game tries to do this with the character models. Square made a big deal about how FFVIII characters would have subtle facial expressions compared to the wacky explosive spinning and arm waving animations in prior games. But the visual fidelity just wasn't there for it to be noticeable. People bitch about FFVII's Popeye arms but those models were incredibly easy to read even at a distance. FFVIII tried to be way more subtle and nuanced but the resolution needed to be a hair better, like Vagrant Story.

>>10593991
Retards are the most enjoyable protagonists. Go back to your Linkin Park AMVs, Squall.

>>10594953
>It creates no plot holes
Rinoa surviving that long is a plot hole. And before you quote the "witches can't die until they pass on their power" plot point, remember that the ONLY witch we see in a state of "near-death-but-needing-to-find-a-successor" is Ultimecia at the end of the game, and she can barely fucking walk. They aren't just immune to age and injury while they have their powers.
>doesn't rely on flagrant leaps in logic
One of the absolute cornerstones of the theory is that Rinoa continued using GFs for years and years to the point that she forgot Squall. Why would she, a sorceress, continue using a separate power that she knows for a fact causes memory loss? Why didn't she have any GFs in the Ultimecia fight, instead choosing to draw one from Squall?
>is consistent with the tone of the game
FF8 is not a tragedy without this theory. It's a tragedy for Laguna, but the whole point of that (from a writing perspective) is to serve as a lesson for Squall to cherish the present because there's no changing the past. And Squall's present is very happy at the end of the game.

>>10595032
>
FF8 is not a tragedy without this theory. It's a tragedy for Laguna, but the whole point of that (from a writing perspective) is to serve as a lesson for Squall to cherish the present because there's no changing the past. And Squall's present is very happy at the end of the game.
I thought the theory was grounded on you saving Rinoa from that fate and breaking the cycle. Not that it was an inevitable end for her. So the Ultimecia that went back in time doesn't get created again.

>>10595217
FF8 is a stable loop. The whole point of the Ellone/Laguna plot is again that the past can't be changed. Ultimecia reinforces this with her speech just before she dies during the last phase of the boss fight. There is no chance of a happy end for Ultimecia, her death is what set everything in motion to begin with.