/vr/ - Retro Games

>GTA wasn't popular or fun until 3

>>10527201
>Secret of mana is a shit game but the OST is good

>>10527201
Don't really want to get into it but fans of a certain console who simultaneously seem to hate the company that made it

>X game is overrated

>>10527218
That's not really revisionist. I had zero interest in GTA 1 and GTA2 back in the late 90s. It wasn't until GTA3 was announced and saw what they were doing differently with it that I actually had an interest.

>>10527329
Who the hell are you

>>10527201
I don't care about the opinions of ecelebs or other retards in general. If you spend all your time obsessing over what other people think, you're not a person, you're just a shadow cast by those other people.

>>10527849
>you're just a shadow cast by those other people
That's a good expression anon, I'm stealing that one.

>>10527201
>Sonic was never good

>>10527201
Life is too short to give a shit what some random turds think

>>10527201
"Mario Sunshine is the black sheep of 3D Mario games"

>>10527864
You now just a shadow cast by that Anon

>Players never liked challenge, any and all difficulty was designed to fuck with the player on purpose to sell strategy guides or to fuck with rentals. Yes of course that includes games only released in countries with no or very little rental or games that didn't have strategy guides. You see, this is why you should use savestates to fix those games, boomers are just stockholmed.

>>10527949
Deep

>>10527849
I don't care either but it's still annoying that there are so many who do and it's reached a point where any time one of those fucktards says anything we all have to spend the next few weeks listening to tardfucks spread it like a venereal disease.

>>10527952
After looking at old dungeon crawlers I can say that yeah, challenge was considered a big selling point once.
I think an issue is that millennial who were five back then control the narrative of retro gaming

>>10527224
Yeah I hate it, the soundtrack is nothing special

>>10527201
>Wind Waker was good
>any 3D Mario after 64 was good
>any Zelda after N64 and before BOTW was good
>PlayStation Mini failed because they did some unspecified thing wrong and not because PS1 games just don't hold up

>that ultima was not popular in japan and had little bearing on the direction of rpgs
>that consoles were the predominant way people played games
>that arcade games were evil and focus tested to steal all your money
>that sega was known for only sonic and not their arcade games, the actual moneymakers
>if you ever use a guide the game is worthless
>>10527974
right on the fucking money. all the problem are that a certain generation came into power and told the narrative (a very singular and shallow one) about gaming history, how it "was", and what games were important.

>>10527201
Sonic Adventure/Sonic Adventure 2 "haven't aged well" or something. I blame YouTubers, though a lot of Nintendo fanboys that never really got past 90's console wars did go and bangwagon on the opportunity when it did present itself, it's a rewriting of history too.

>>10527952
people liked challenge but they didn't like the arcade style back to title screen format.

ITT: people thinking their childhood bubble was the real world and that getting exposed to differing opinions online is some kind of conspiracy.

>>10527909
That's not revisionism, it's just the plain trust that makes sega autists screech.

>>10528365
"An acclaimed trilogy beloved by even Nintendo fans back then during the peak of console wars was actually always fundamentally flawed and not good video games at all" isn't revisionism? Do you have any idea how ridiculous you guys actually sound? It's downright pretentious...

>>10528386
>screeching
Example one.

>>10528392
>No arguments yet again
I'll accept your concession

>>10528337
>zoomer thinking that 20 year old influencers know more about 30 year old games than people who were around at the time

>>10528462
I'm not reading the walls of text you always post sonictard-kun, I know you're just an autistic man posting sonic shit on this board 24h everyday.

>>10527952
Just like today, people had different tastes. I never liked replaying the same levels over and over again, seems like a waste of time to me, I'd rather be playing a new level with a password. And on PC everyone savescummed from early days and nobody thought twice about it.

>>10528465
>Uh oh, where are the seamless loading screens? the looping wholesomerino level design? the QoL improvements? the standarized menu layout? the regenerating health? why is it making me repeat the last section after dying? sorry old man, but your game is FLAWED and it hasn't learned from the recently released games. Your experiences were fake (not mine, mine are the real deal)

>>10528471
I don't think what I posted counts as walls of text at all, and I'd give it a read if I were you, maybe if you did then we could actually talk about it and have a good conversation, but if you don't want to then that's fine, I wish you a good day anyway.

>>10528483
This is some uranium-grade persecution delusion and, itself, revisionist. Elden Ring was the second best selling game of 2022. It's all in your head.

>>10528545
If we accept the concept of safe horny as valid, then Elden Ring is safe hard

>>10528478
Different tastes, sure, but the majority of the industry for the west was designed while taking the concept of wanted difficulty into account.
Japan was different however. They put RPG and "thinking games" above action games so the majority didn't like action games that were too difficult.

>>10527201
Sega being some plucky underdog against Nintendo instead of the market leader for 5 whole years
The massive overestimation of jrpgs importance and relevance outside Final Fantasy
How sports and licensed games are totally ignored in a consoles lineup
The constant insuination no one over the age of 12 played video games until 2005
The complete disregard for most PC titles
Or more simply, I hate how the vast majority of retro game "culture" at this point has been established by YouTube personalities who were 6 year olds playing a SNES and grew up to be nerds

>>10527218
GTA 1 sucked and 2 was even more of a mess. I would guess 95% of players bounced off it after a few of those payphone missions and killing sprees. There's just not enough to it or motivation to do much in it. It becoming a 3D moviegame actually gave most people a reason to stick with it.

>>10528693
GTA 1 rocked

t. 12 yo at the time

>>10527224
>all attacks outside of 100% are wasted so the combat's fucking weird and stilted
>multiplayer game where people have to pause and use the radial menus all the time
>hits lag like you're on a dialup Quake match
I'm thinking true on this, cuh.

>>10528693
i sunk 500 hours into gta2

>>10528717
I was 15 when I played it and didn't know what the fuck people were meming about. I guess if you're British and young enough anything rules.

>>10527909
It was good but it was never *that* good, and there's been so much shit and ill will created that the good hardly matters anymore.

>>10528641
>Or more simply, I hate how the vast majority of retro game "culture" at this point has been established by YouTube personalities who were 6 year olds playing a SNES and grew up to be nerds
absolutely this. its not even a nerd thing. its just part of the personality to parade around the same games over and over.

>>10528014
Based on Zelda, cringe on Mario and PS1. Sunshine owned outside of cutscenes and blue coins and come on bro don't try to tell me R Type Delta and SOTN aren't good games. The PS1 mini was indeed mad fucked up.
>>10528050
Who the fuck would deny Ultima's influence? Consoles were predominantly the way people playing in NA.

>>10527909
What Sonic 2 was good. Come on man Sonic 2 u gotta give it some credit.

>>10528747
the marketing was good. thats enough to hold sway over the 5 year old who is now 30+ in perpetuity.

>>10527849
Based.

Fuck all those youtubers, e-celbes- instacucks and instawhores.

We play the games we like, how we like. For some of us it's the last trench of freedom in a busy day, an empty life, or both.

>>10528641
>Sega being some plucky underdog against Nintendo instead of the market leader for 5 whole years

accurate.

>The massive overestimation of jrpgs importance and relevance outside Final Fantasy

somewhat accurate

>How sports and licensed games are totally ignored in a consoles lineup

I don't get this either, especially when sports games and licensed games sell some of the most copies and have some great entries.

>The constant insuination no one over the age of 12 played video games until 2005

I think this is just because that most discourse around games was through magazines and not many people had access to the internet. They're still wrong but I get why they might think that.

>The complete disregard for most PC titles

Oh yeah definitely, trying to find anything about PC gaming in the 80s to 90s is such a crapshoot. Most have fallen to obscurity sadly.

>Or more simply, I hate how the vast majority of retro game "culture" at this point has been established by YouTube personalities who were 6 year olds playing a SNES and grew up to be nerds

No argument here.

>>10528747
>>10528772
It WAS *that* good and anyone that was there can tell you that, you can parrot about how it's marketing or whatever, as if Nintendo or Sony's IPs had no marketing to them too, but Sonic is the IP that made Nintendo kids in the 90's turn their heads to the other side, even if for a brief moment, many kids decided that they wanted Genesis because of Sonic, that's not marketing.

A lot of IPs, especially mascots, had marketing and some hype around them, and were pushed aside almost instantly... because they weren't good, Sonic stuck around because it was good.

>>10528797
It had a cartoon show too, but zoomies will try to make you believe that Sonic's popularity was fake

>>10528386
Sonic was always jank for sure, but it was good despite that.

>>10528797
I'm older than you. Literally just trust me bro. It's a decent platformer with a good aesthetic but what else is there about it really? It does have half the replayability of any decent Mario game nor did it maintain its quality for even remotely as long or as well as Mario. Sorry furfag. Maybe Sally Acorn will fuck you someday.

>>10528831
*doesn't have

>>10528831
BING BING WAHOO

>>10528564
>safe-hard
this is basically true of any game that doesn't have limited continues or permadeath.

>>10528831
>Literally just trust me bro.
No, why should anyone simply trust you if there are people who were 90's Nintendo kids and do say the complete opposite?

>but what else is there about it really?
It's an excellent platformer that did momentum and physics based platforming better than any other, while giving it a fun and exhilirating sense of speed in level design that's fun to explore, do you need there to be more about it? It's a peak video game.

>It does have half the replayability of any decent Mario game
A lot of Sonic fans replay it to death, so this is arguable, not a fact.

>nor did it maintain its quality for even remotely as long or as well as Mario
A drop in quality after the transition to 3D doesn't take away from the quality of the classic trilogy, that makes no sense.

>>10528867
>>10528831
>Sorry furfag. Maybe Sally Acorn will fuck you someday.
I forgot to reply to this part. Well, she already has, VR is a wonderful thing, now add a body pillow to that and I've got a complete set with everything I could ever want.

there's a common denominator to people who claim that sonic/sega/ps1/ps2/genesis/half-life/pc gaming/arcades/etc were never good. and the answer is they grew up with nintendo. tendies have the least adaptability of all fanbases in terms of jumping outside their comfort zones, that's because nintendo games by design are non-complex games (since they're games for kids) and stuffing your brain with nothing but nintendo games until adulthood atrophies all the gamer senses. rather than blame themselves and their video game illiteracy, they blame every acclaimed game under the sun that plays differently to what they're used to. anytime you hear the words "clunky", "janky", "bad design", "artificial difficulty", "aged badly" know it's coming from a gamer who dulled his senses after decades of nothing but nintendoslop.

>>10528926
I'm a lifelong PC Gaymer and I hold all of those positions. The first Nintendo product I used is a Switch, acquired in 2021. Never played a Nintendo game before then.

>>10529095
>frogposter
>shit opinions
Checks out

>>10529095

>>10528825
Sonic had far more sophisticated pyshics than Mario, but let's keep using buzzwords anyway.

>>10528926
But we also have a problem with double standards. I have seen people bitching about Sonic being 'floaty', which is a worthless buzzword to begin with. It's as if I were to claim that Mario games are trash because they're more 'floaty' than Classicvanias. But at the same time, I don't remember anyone complaining about Super Metroid, an actually super 'floaty' game.

>>10528050
>that sega was known for only sonic and not their arcade games, the actual moneymakers
This is the biggest one for me. Sega were an arcade company first and foremost for their entire lives. Even today, like half of the highest-earning arcade games in Japan during any given year are Sega.

>>10529151
Obviously, most gamers have already set preconceptions about games and will find any buzzword to demean them, hypocrisy be damned. To me, a gamer alluding to "clunky" or "janky" aspects always translates in my head to "I was too stupid and impatient to play this game", it's amazing how they think it's a legit criticism when it speaks more of them than the game.

>>10529132
Why would I lie, to own some Segafags on the internet? I'm a thirdie. Playing games on my parents' computer was easy. Telling them to buy machines exclusively for playing games was hard. Do you want me to expound into details on those positions as well?

>>10527201
Revisionism about third party games in older Nintendo consoles.
People tend to forget that Street Fighter 2 or Mortal Kombat were more popular than any Nintendo franchise that weren't Mario or Donkey Kong, that Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy had better sales than Zelda, that licenced games from Capcom or Konami or sports games like ISS, NHL or NBA JAM were very popular, that Illusion of Time was a very succesful game that received great scores and was heavily promoted in order to introduce 'rpgs' in Europe, that games like Ghouls'n Ghosts sold more than one million...
>The massive overestimation of jrpgs importance and relevance outside Final Fantasy
It's a matter of perspective. Back then most games for consoles were platformers, action games... and rpgs were kinda a 'prestigious' genre, even if kids preferred more direct games. They were longer, they had exploration, they often had puzzles... And insulting them for being Japanese wasn't so trendy either, at least from my experience.

>>10527218
GTA 1 definitely made a splash when it landed. It just wasn't as popular as it became with 3.

GTA 2 sold 1,5K million on Playstation alone

GTA 2 sold 1,5 million on Playstation alone

>>10528564
>If we accept the concept of safe horny as valid
We don’t.

>>10529616
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xgtv8PWdeIQ

>>10527218
Well to be fair none of the GTA games were ever good. They were always just edgy slop for fatherless wiggers.

>>10528287
SA1 was always good and SA2 was always trash. Games don't age.

>>10527201
>there was a video game crash in the early 80s

>>10529797
Okay what's a better game in the genre? Let me guess you don't like the entire genre and you think you should somehow still comment on the games in that genre?

>>10527909
This is real though

>>10529817
The games that made the Famicom The Famicom weren't made until 1985 and beyond.
And don't play the "muh yurop home micro" card, games on those garbage had always been a perpetual crash.

>>10529847
>The games that made the Famicom The Famicom weren't made until 1985 and beyond.
This supports the notion that Nintendo really did not save video games.

>>10529551
your first point is mostly bullshit? SF2, MK, and DQ are always brought up as cultural phenomenons on the level of pokemon(japan called off school for dragon quest release day). people constantly jerk off nba jam and ghouls n ghosts. ducktales is some of the most vanilla retrogame culture and turtles in time is ubiquitous with the snes.

>post genesis sonic is good

>>10527201
>have a casual convo with someone
>accidentally allude that I play old school stuff
>I forgot what he asked me but I gave him my honest opinion
>"OMG YOU MUST FEEL REALLY LONELY FOR HAVING THAT OPINION"
>Challenge his statement back by asking what he thought about the game
>"I FOLLOW YOUTUBE CHANNEL #5,000 FOR MY INFORMATION"
>"But I asked you what you think"
>"TRUST ME, JUST WATCH THIS CHANNEL AND YOU WILL CHANGE YOUR OPINION!"
>Avoided any tangible old school gaming conversation with this guy ever since

>>10530029
What game?

>>10528926
Nintendo is my favorite game company and I know a frankly weird amount of stuff about them. I got every Nintendo console and handheld as they came out when I was a kid, choosing them over the other options.

I consider halflife 1 and 2 masterpieces. I've emulated plenty of ps1 games. PS2 has plenty of great games. The non retro PSs have some truly great games as well. Most of the time I game these days it's on pc.

Sometimes Nintendo fans live in a bubble when it comes to their videogame knowledge but detractors like you have become just as obnoxious. In my experience Nintendo fans actually tend to be MORE welcoming of old games since they play so much of Nintendo's old stuff. Most modern xbox/ps owners would never touch halflife either, and at this point most pc gamers are kids playing minecraft and fortnite. The nintendo hate I see so often seems like a cope from people who are mad their favorites dont get talked about as much as Mario and Zelda do.

>>10527952
>any and all difficulty was designed to fuck with the player on purpose to sell strategy guides or to fuck with rentals
Nobody has ever said this, and you will never not stop looking like an obsessively seething retard by repeating this over and over.

>>10531270
people say this all the time in p&c threads

>>10531275
P&C?

>>10531280
point and click adventure games

>>10531282
What are they saying in point and click threads?

>>10531285
That they were needlessly difficult to sell more strategy guides.

>>10531290
Oh, are they saying that all games were designed like that for that exact reason? Like you're claiming?

>>10528287
I do this all the time

>>10531309
I'm not that anon, but I've seen it used as a generalized statement about adventure games, or all games by Sierra for example. I'm not sure about all games in general, but he's obviously exaggerating the pretend quote to make a point, which doesn't make his point less valid. Don't be an autist anon.

>>10528693
Both GTAs rocked. I didn’t knew english, didn’t knew what Grand Theft Auto meant, but everything made sense when I mashed my keyboard and stole a car.. dunno the model but I still remember the feeling, the dopamine. My father watched me having the time of my life driving over citizens, crossing red-lights, crashing into other cars and his reaction was like “WHAT ARE YOU DOING, YOU CANT DRIVE LIKE THIS”. Of course the game is a mess and silly, but letting players do absurd things on an urban setting, when most games were kind of fantasy-themed, was just insane. I don’t know if any game let you do these things with the same depth of immersion as GTA but I think this was very powerful, at least for me.

>>10531270
People say this all the time for action games and adventure games, lurk moar. It's what they tell themselves when they get filtered

>>10528287
Me and everyone I knew laughed at the Sonic Adventure reveal. It's always been an abomination.

>>10527974
This. The gen Xers who bought and played games pre-1995 just aren't online giving us their perspective, not in any numbers so they get drowned in the noise.

>>10527952
Off screen infinitely spawning enemies are garbage game design.

>>10531443
I mean that's kind of the rub of a lot of media. Most people are just sort of generally content to play.You have to have very strong feelings one way or another to make a fuss online regardless of your opinion and the people who care enough to make such a fuss are in the VAST minority of players in general. Especially the older said fandoms get.

>>10531441
Sure thing, bud. Have your (You).

>>10531270
this is absolutely true, the only reason to deny this is for ego inflation over mashing plastic buttons the right way
why do you think that in the modern gaming era, games have hours of introductory cutscenes and tutorials? to cuck you from a refund of course.
a lot of japanese devs back in the day also raised the difficulty to fuck for NA exports because vidya rentals were legal there.
theres also stuff like the MGS1 codec number on the back of the case, which would cuck pirates and by proxy some rentals
j*panese people are the most autistic faggots about protecting their property, denying this is just denying reality

for reference i liek hurd gaymz

>>10528287
I played them when they came to the GC, and even then I could tell they were kind of fucked.
I still liked them, but I liked them in spite of themselves.
I wouldn't say they aged poorly poorly because think they were always kind of fucked. You can go and play Crash Bandicoot or Rayman 2 now, and those are infinitely more polished feeling games. Better animated cutscenes too.

And don't get on me with your "the Dreamcast versions are better" shit. They aren't. They have half the frames and less content.

>>10529183
>why would I lie
Because (you) want (you)s and are a boring person without original opinions

>>10527329
Damn, this guy's the only person in the world who played GTA games. Never thought I'd meet him.

>>10527201
Not loathe but it's kind of impressive to watch how Megaman's image got rehabilitated from "oh god fuck off we're sick of this slop" to "Muh heckin' Megarino we love him always have". I guess absence really does make the heart grow fonder.

>>10528287
If you judge Zelda 1 by modern standards then the game is even stronger because modern games are slop.

>>10531685
Zelda 1 can be more obscure than Simons quest. I don't know why it gets a free pass.

>>10527952
>any and all difficulty was designed to fuck with the player on purpose to sell strategy guides or to fuck with rentals.
Not that I don't like hard games, but the difficulty of many games were fucked with in order to fight against the rental market. And not just the difficulty too, games were often designed in a way that maps or other stuff that came in the box would be very helpful with the game as a form of copy protection

>>10527849
Profound and true. This is why if I'm looking for opinions on youtube (retarded by itself, I know) I won't click anything that looks over-produced or has more than 1K views. I'd rather hear the opinions of normal people who aren't doing it as a job. Sorting the results by Upload Date/Newest filters out most of the e-celeb trash.

>>10531820
Indeed, another reason was cartridge space, a lot of developers had very little to work with since cartridges with more memory were expensive if compared to smaller ones, so they had to make 30 minutes of content last for weeks somehow to justify paying full price... I still like 'em though.

>Steam saved PC gaming
PC gaming was a growing market before Steam came along. I dunno why people try to pretend that DRM and CD-Keys were some kind of deal breaker when it was much more of a hassle to do PC gaming back in the DOS days. PC gaming was already getting easier, and most people back then didn't care to have another program running in the background eating up RAM. People seem to forget the early 2000's was the era of WC3, BF1942, and the height of Unreal Tournament's popularity. Millions of people were getting into PC gaming, and had no issues putting the CD in their computer and playing. All those games sold gang-busters and did it without Steam.
Keep in mind the early 2000's were when everyone suddenly got a computer and the internet. The market was growing at a rate previously unseen, Steam just happened to arrive a few years later and gets credit for an already expanding market.
>RPGs weren't popular in the west until FF7
Console RPGs weren't popular compared to platformers and arcade games, computer RPGs were one of the top two genres along with simulations/strategy until the rise of the FPS in the early 90's. MMORPGs existed before WoW as well.

>>10531685
I do prefer going back to Zelda 1 over a lot of other Zeldas now. It's one of the only Zeldas that offers a real challenge, and sense of raw adventure.

>>10531808
Simon's Quest is good too.
>oh no, I got lost in a game )^:
That's the point

>>10531808
>oh no i have to explore in my adventure game
what is obscure in zelda 1. that you have to find dungeons? tell us in detail.

>>10531974
no one designed games like this. stop saying such obvious youtuber shill crap.

>>10532136
I'm not, it just became obvious when I came back to all of the stuff I struggled with as a kid and, as I finally beat them, realized that most took 30 or even 15 minutes sometimes, when you get good at them and know what to do, of course. It's clear to me that part of the reason why they had to be difficult, some even taking you back to the start when losing too much, is for it to last longer too.

I don't get why you'd be upset and act as if such a simple conclusion must obviously be because I've watched a YouTube video about it, people can go and have their own opinions, and this was mine.

>>10532132
Bomb specific walls. Burn specific trees.

>>10532150
Kinamania is cool.
I like the guy, he has some videos translated.

>>10527201
That Japanese RPGs weren't popular in America until FFVII. They still sold well by NES and SNES standards.

>>10528693
I am one of the dudes that played gta 1 or 2, drove over pedestrians a few times and lol'd, then bounced off the rest of the game until I played 3 which was an obsession for a month or two. Although I've barely played anything else in the series

>>10527201
Everything about Nintendo and Sony's SNES CD and how Nintendo "was dumb" when it came to the N64 gets totally mangled by most people. The poetic irony of the popular version of the story makes for a nice fairy tale but it's complete nonsense.

>>10531332
>>10531270
The only game I can think of where this might actually be true was Alone in the Dark 3. And the reason I say this is because AitD1 is way less cryptic and the in-game notes and journal entries give you hints for every puzzle.

>>10532654
So cartridges were just a massive albatross nintendo had to tank? there was no error in it?

>>10528641
>How sports and licensed games are totally ignored in a consoles lineup
That's mainly because the people who are super passionate about games to the point of playing them 20 years later, aren't the kind of people that play NFL Blitz or Gran Turismo, even though both are legitimately great games.

>>10529551
>And insulting them for being Japanese wasn't so trendy either, at least from my experience.
No that was born out of the early 360 and PS3 era, the endless shitting on Japanese games for being Japanese. It started earlier but that's when it reached its apex, and it was basically because Japs were having problems converting to HD and so Americans saw the perfect opportunity to kick them while they were down in a wierd, microcosmic repeat of anti-Japanese sentiment from the 80s.

>>10527201
The fighting game community was majority black in the 1990s.
It wasn't. It was mostly whites, asians, and latinos.
Don't believe me just look up tournament videos on youtube.

>>10531443
Because there's barely any Gen Xers to begin with, they're one of the smallest generations. Millenials are the second-largest after the boomers.

>>10531820
One of the creators of Lion King straight up admitted they were told to make the 2nd stage really hard to make it difficult for rentals to beat when him and a Double Fine dev did an LP vid of it.

It's objectively true that games back in the day were made artificially harder to fuck with rentals, too many devs from back in the day have come out and admitted it. However, there's this wierd persistent idea that renting games in Japan was illegal. It wasn't, there were just more rules and regulations iirc on how soon after release a game was allowed to be put up for rental.

>>10532057
>>RPGs weren't popular in the west until FF7
And when did that revision start in your mind?

>>10532870
Nta but the people who went to tournaments wasn't exactly the best overlap with "people who played in arcades". Yes, you're right that it wasn't majority black, because it never was.
BUT, and this is kinda key here, a lot of black kids got into fighting games because they had siblings and one console, and their parents mostly only bought games that both could play at the same time so that no one would fight over their turn. That, and you have to remember that arcade machines were everywhere back in the day, not just arcades. Your local laundromat probably had at least 1 machine.

>>10532870
The whole "arcades were sketchy and full of people who got into actual fights" narrative seems overblown.

There were places like that, just like there were places that were safe and kiddy friendly. It depended on the area they were in, like any other store or social spot a lot of people visit.

>>10531683
>oh god fuck off we're sick of this slop
To be fair, this was mostly journalists and bloggers. Most others just direct their venom at the indisputably-shit entries, like X7 and BCC.

>>10527201
Why the FFT pic? Do people say FFT is bad now or something?

>>10527201
>FPS sucked before half life and halo

>>10531820
I never said rentals weren't a factor. What I'm saying it was an extremely marginal factor greatly exagerated these days.

There are only a handful of dev quotes that claimed they made a game hard because they feared rentals. And people always use the same 2 examples (Lion King..). Among those, there are even a dev that did say this, only to contradict in another interview, saying exactly what I'm saying, that the reason why the western version of the game is harder was because the western audiance wanted and liked the challenge.

Meanwhile there are countless and countless proofs that core players and reviewers in the west, both US and Europe, liked and wanted the challenge during the 8-bit and 16-bit era, and it carried also during the first half of the 32-bit era. What I posted was only a sample, it's absolutely everywhere. Meanwhile, for that same period of it, if you look at Japan, not only there is no such thing, but on the contrary if you look at the feedback of all the main jRPGs, they complained that they were too hard very often.

tl;dr on one side, you have a handful of dev quotes justifying the "rentals" argument. Some of which are questionnable.

On the other side you have endless input from several types of sources all showing that players and reviewers liked the challenge, and that it was a huge deal for marketers too.

Yet, nowadays you have tons of people claiming any and all difficulty was solely because of rentals.

That is my point, and every time I bring it up, people who refuse to acknowledge that they could ever have had fallen for a meme opinion, try to use the same 2 rental quotes as if it could prove wrong all the proof that players, reviewers and marketers, held challenge in high regard.

>>10527909
Where did this one even come from?

>>10533660
Any public venue in an inner city is "sketchy". That's the quiet part that you don't say out loud.

>>10528641
Man, if you want a real "revisionist" thing, it's Zoomer Sonic fans suddenly trying to revive the Sonic/Mario rivalry, as if that was even a thing past the mid-90's, or was even THAT much of a thing to begin with, and platforming fans didn't just like both.

But yeah, now we have to deal with a bunch of 20 year olds trying to figure out why no one likes the Sonic games they grew up with (the bad ones), and shifting the blame to some nebulous cabal of "Mario fans".
Like, Sonic was on Nintendo systems from the GBA onwards, and it was popular there. There was no "war" going on.
Shadow the Hedgehog is just shit. Sonic 06 is just shit.

>>10534414
I had a gamecube and remember Adventure 2 Battle being a really well liked game by other nintendo fans. This Mario vs Sonic stuff probably comes from fucking newgrounds flash fights more than anything.

>>10532871
Hehe, us Millennichads can't stop winning

>>10534537
Yeah, and literal Sega marketing. I don't know, maybe some people internalised that, and though Mario and Sonic were at war, but I always just thought they were both really fun.
I've met maybe one person ever who was around back then and only liked Sonic and not Mario.

>>10534564
The very idea of this mythical console WAR is overblown in general. The only ones who really treated it like it was some big deal were marketers and the most rabid of retard fanboys. You know what everyone else did? Took different turns going over different houses based on who had what and what we felt like playing that week. It was almost a plus that different kids had different shit that way we all got to play on them.

>>10528641
It's not that simple. You simply find more people being enthusiastic about Nintendo because Sega USA cooked the books and lied about shipped vs sold.
There were simply more Nintendo kids, because 50 percent of Segas "sold" stock was sitting in some Walmart warehouse until the end of the fiscal year, just to be sold back to sega after the CEOs got their bonus.

>>10528693
I loved GTA 2 and lost interest in the series when 3 released and removed the awesome gang mechanics and sci-fi cyberpunk scenario.

>>10532871
Bait or mental illness?

>>10534625
whynotboth.jpeg

>>10534414
It was absolutely a thing, maybe you tourists are too young to remember.
Generally small brains and retards will turn every miniscule preference into a contest.
Especially since Nintendo vs Sega was a binary choice for most kids, so they had a bone in the fight.

>>10527218
Even GTA 3 was boring. Vice City is when it got good.

>>10532841
Super Mario 64 wouldn't have been half the classic it is if it had loading screens.

>>10534630
Like I say, I've met one person who thought it was an actual thing, and everyone else just thinks Mario and Sonic are both good.
It does strike me that it's more of a Sega fanboy thing, and more of an American Sega fanboy thing at that, because that's how Sega was pushed as a thing in America. By being aggressively dismissive toward Nintendo.
Meanwhile Nintendo was always just like "Mario, it's fun, play it".

>>10534637
I mean, for the kind of games Nintendo makes, the cartridge format was fine, and made sense even.
A CD can store a shitload of voice files, and a shitload of video files, so you can have more of a cinematic game, but do you even want that if you're playing Mario Kart? Or even Zelda which I think frankly worked better as a thing without voice acting. Made it more like a storybook.

>>10534739
Maybe the Pre-N64 Nintendo fans. N64 turned them toxic as fuck, there's a big difference in behavior.

>>10534750
No? Those were the exact people playing Sonic Advance and loving it, because I was one of them.

>>10534537
>>10534564
>>10534591
>>10534630
>>10534739
>>10534750
It was a "war" in the sense that kids couldn't own both consoles and essentially had a "side" choosen for them, and since we're naturally tribalistic, we feel the need to defend our own over anything else, even for the smallest things, but still it was a "war" where kids mocked the other console and mascot character... only to play it on their friend's house over the weekend and love it, I've heard of many Nintendo kids who got a SEGA Genesis in the 90's because of playing Sonic at a friend's or family member's house and loving how it looked, sounded and played.

Of course, there's always been those that are a bit too tribalistic and downright refuses to like things from the other "side" at all, and those exist even today, even on /vr/ really, I do agree that a lot of Nintendo fans are obnoxious about Sonic, like "Sonic was never good", but it's a few.

>>10535158
The thing is though, I had Nintendo consoles as a kid, and I still thought Sonic was really cool, and relished any opportunity to play a Sonic game.
Why would I not? It's stylistically similar to games I already liked, which were colourful platformers.

>>10535226
Exactly. I had a Genesis as a kid, and after it broke my dad wanted to replace it with a PS1, but until he found an used one for a price he was happy with, he bought us a NES as a placeholder, a clone console to be more exact, a PolyStation, and only a few months later we got a PS1.

I had a childhood where I had Sonic 1, then SMB1 and then Crash 1 in a span of a few years, and it was glorious, I was a really lucky kid back then.

>>10532285
Didn't sell well enough to meet expectations
https://nintendoeverything.com/sakaguchi-says-final-fantasy-vi-didnt-sell-well-in-the-u-s-when-it-originally-hit-the-snes/

>>10529806
It all starts with this... one anon's trash opinion on SA2

>sonic 1 is better on the master system
>wind waker and mario sunshine weren't disappointments
>hyperstone heist is better than Turtles in time

>>10527978
>>10528725
Zoom zoom.

>>10527928
If people heeded this sentiment 4chan would outright die.

>>10535370
>sonic 1 is better on the master system
lol what

>wind waker and mario sunshine weren't disappointments
This is true. Your anecdotal experience doesn't matter. People loved those games.

>>10528287
I love the Sonic Adventure games but they really are buggy janky shit. Nothing in them feels smooth except the parts where the game just plays itself for you anyway.

>>10528050
>that ultima was not popular in japan and had little bearing on the direction of rpgs
lol nobody says this.

>>10528014
100% personal contrarian opinions. You should find a real hobby that isn't going into threads to screech about things you don't like.

>>10527218
If you look at the sales for GTA 1 and 2, it was doing about "okay" for what would become a classic franchise, and even compared to other top-selling PS1 games. Crash Bandicoot 1 sold 4 times as many copies as GTA 1 and 2 combined.

>>10527909
That's not revisionism, that's adults that grew up with Sonic realizing that the games are frustrating and awkwardly designed.

>>10532057
pc gaming was booming, sure, promlem is no one was buying the games. towards the end of 00s many people were getting fast enough interent connection for pirating. you ever thought why so many games were released on x360/ps3 as multiplatfrom but not on pc?

>>10535158
This is the kind of thing people should try to grow out of, as it's the most insipid form of tribalism, and it's all running on corporate marketing, so there isn't even a good reason for it.
It's better for people to put that behind them, be more honest, and then reevaluate games they used to think like that about.

>>10535403
People shit talked Sunshine and Wind Waker all the time in the early to mid 2000s. It wasn't until the people that grew up with them got on the internet that they start to become more beloved over all.

>>10535536
Don't worry, anon will bring up mag scores and sales as if they mean something (FF8 fags do the same) because those sales and scores are definitely not the product of their immediate predecessors' popularity

>>10527201
While I like Super Mario Sunshine, I do not like how revered it is by people who grew up with it. I grew up with it myself. But back then, opinions were positive but generally viewed it as one of the weaker entries. Now you get some people calling it one of the best if not THE best, which is ridiculous. Actually, Luigi's Mansion is similar in this respect.

Something else that really grinds my gears is how retro survival horror is discussed nowadays. It typically goes like this:
>early survival horror games had technical limitations
>this caused fixed camera angles and tank controls to be the standard
The above parts are true, but here is where it starts becoming revisionist:
>since these mechanics were invented initially because of technical limitations, it should not exist anymore since we do not have these limitations
>fixed cameras and tank controls suck anyway
I completely disagree. While not all survival horror games need either of these, I completely reject the idea that they are bad and shouldn't be used. Further, some even say this:
>limiting saves is outdated
>it's better to not have combat at all and instead you should run and hide
While not all survival horror games limited your saves, many did in some way. I think it generally is a good thing in survival horror games. And I loathe the switch to "run and hide" horror games.

>>10535158
Well yes, but my point is you could have been the biggest "Sega kid" at your school, and if someone in your class said "hey wanna come over and play donkey kong country 2 diddy's kong quest?" You'd be over there before the bell rang. Kids just wanted to play video games.

>>10535869
Re1 had both run and hide and combat

>>10535869
Pseuds love to come up with “rules” of good game design. Most of them just don’t want to adapt to anything outside of their comfort zone.

>>10535907
In your example of RE1, the mechanic is limited resources that you need to determine if it's better to fight, better to dodge enemies and risk taking damage, or go another way. What I was referring to are games in which enemies spot you and you hide in a locker or something to get away. The former is what survival horror is and the latter is something primarily done in newer horror games.

>>10535869
My opinion of limited saves in horror is similar to my opinion of live systems in modern platformers. either make them matter or don't waste my time. In the course of playing the resident evil series I never once, not a single time had to consider my ink ribbons. at best it's an anti-cheese mechanic for ultra wimps and obsessive compulsives.

>>10534625
Neither? In terms of sheer numbers, Gen X was a smaller genertation for whatever reason, but way more millenials were born.

>>10536075
Yeah I mean I guess in resident evil they're there to waste your inventory space, but 99% of the time they're just in the same room as a box and a typewriter so they don't even matter. RE 1-3 are a lot more fun if you just don't use saves at all.

>>10536075
In RE, I typically think ink ribbons are given a bit too liberally. But I am a survival horror junkie who is extremely used to these games. I got a friend of mine into Resident Evil recently and made him play in release order. And it was kind of eye opening how much someone like him who never plays survival horror needed to reconsider what he was doing because he could lose progress. In REmake, he actually ran out at some point. I'm happy the mechanic was actually limiting to somebody and it wasn't just theoretical.

>>10527952
Most players "liked challenge" in the same way they like Dark Souls, the ads you post are just to try to talk people into buying whatever crap you serve them to feel like a big boy hardcore gamer until they found a new gimmick to get most people to buy shit they won't play. Easy games reviewed poorly because they were almost guaranteed to be short and thus fail the meme value standard until you get to somewhat modern RPGs.

Really this is marketing (and magazines that run ads are marketing, don't kid yourself) for everything outside of the most absolute ultra mainstream, you push the features that the hardcore audience that actually gives a fuck is liable to care about to the overwhelming majority that really doesn't give a fuck and hope they are influenced into wanting to seem cultured, or informed, or find out what those nerds are so excited about. BMWs, mechanical keyboards, wireless mice, specialist controllers, RTX4090s, flagship smartphones, all kinds of shit is sold based on the premise of enthusiast traits most owners never even use as they putter to the grocery store and back, hunt and poke type and play Minecraft for the next 7 years, and only use their phone to text and post on facebook. I've done it, you've done it, we've all fucking done it, and chances are you've tried a hard video game in a series or genre you haven't played before thinking you're into that and then hated it. People do it every goddamn day thinking they're going to get out of the FPS or assfaggots grind with fighting games.

>>10535869
>. I grew up with it myself. But back then, opinions were positive but generally viewed it as one of the weaker entries. Now you get some people calling it one of the best if not THE best, which is ridiculous.
Really? If anything I hear the opposite, that it's a good game but has some serious flaws to it, which was the same opinion people had it of back when it came out.

>>10536096
I've seen a bunch of videos of people claiming it is better than people gave it credit for. I don't claim that this is the majority opinion of people nowadays, but I've seen it plenty nowadays. And to me, that's revisionism made by people who grew up with it and can't see it in any way outside of nostalgia.

>>10536075
The only game I've played where limited saves mattered was a non-retro game, and it was Dead Space 2's hardest difficulty which let you save only 3 times the whole playthrough.

>>10536091
>and chances are you've tried a hard video game in a series or genre you haven't played before thinking you're into that and then hated it
Nta but not really, mainly because it's very hard for me to hate anything. I tend to just get bored and drop off from playing it anymore.

>>10532871
>>10531443
also because millennials are the main characters of the internet. Gen X doesn't really exist online anymore and zoomers are stuck in the same 2-3 social media platforms. online culture will just die with millennials I think

>>10536117
Probably why if you go to GameFAQs boards right now, it's exactly the same as it was back in the early 2000s when we used it in high school (except now you can edit posts and swear). Because they're the only people who would use those forums, so they're like the TFwiki in that they stayed the same as the internet changed around them.

>>10535915
I mean there are do's and dont's of game design that while they aren't objective, have kinda just become so universally accepted that you come across as a contrarian if you do otherwise. Like, don't delete the player's saves if they try savescumming RNG.

>>10535869
I think anyone who ever said combat based horror, the most reliable, straightforward way to execute a horror game, is outdated and needs to be left behind, is a moron BUT I think there are other approaches you can take. one of the foundational horror series is clocktower after all. unfortunately most alternate horror games are just happy to lazily ripoff amnesia as you said.

>>10536150
>clocktower
I do think they did that kind of horror well. And I do appreciate the first 2 and I even have a soft spot for Ghost Head despite how bad it is, but I think you hit the nail on the head on what I don't like. Amnesia and it's various clones are what I typically don't like.

>>10536150
>>10536160
Ok everything else about survival horror aside, the kind of horror where you're just hiding from the monsters basically worked in like 5 games total. No, thinking that being able to fight back against the monsters "cheapens" the horror is a retard, if anything what's way scarier is being able to shoot the monsters, and then you run into a monster that your guns won't work on. I know it's not retro but that's what makes Dead Space work, the Hunter can't be killed like anything else, he will always regenerate his limbs so all you can do is blow him to pieces to give yourself time to run.

>>10527952
Some shit genuinely was just put in the game to fuck with the player or to sell strategy guides, especially in RPGs. How the hell else are you supposed to know that in FE4 you're supposed to go to this specific tile with one specific guy so he can drop his weapon into the lake and get a better weapon from the lady living in the lake? Same with making games harder outside of Japan to fuck with renters, Castlevania III being the prime example, changing it so dying at the final boss kicks you to the start of the final level rather than to the start of the final boss like in the Japanese version.

>>10534210
>Meanwhile, for that same period of it, if you look at Japan, not only there is no such thing, but on the contrary if you look at the feedback of all the main jRPGs, they complained that they were too hard very often.
Nah, the japanese arcade scene has always been crazy with players pushing the games to be harder because they got too good at them. You can look back at a lot of shmups and see the crazy scores they were getting in the 80's and 90's. Most of those scores haven't been between by western players of today and we have emulators with save state practice.

>>10531820
>rental market
No the games were hard because no one wanted to beat a 70 dollar game in half an hour. They were supposed to take months to beat.

>>10536234
You werent supposed to know. Only autists were supposed to figure it out. The game doesnt owe you the best equipment zoomer

>>10536143
"Rules" of gaming are like the rules of art and writing. You don't have to follow them but you do have to know them so when you break them it's on purpose for a reason.

>>10536375
I remember beating Mega Man 2 in one day. I still played it every day though.

>>10527201
>[arcade game] was always cheap and unfun and just meant to squeeze quarters out of kids

>>10527201
good thread with some good responses here
>>10527218
it was popular and fun, but the 1-2 punch of GTA3 + VC made it explode from "that cool game" to a household name
>>10527952
sadly too true. I'm kind of guilty of it, when I got a handheld I thought that playing with savestates just saved time. reality is, it kills most of the fun. SMW is far more thrilling when you have to plan every jump and work for it.
>>10528014
many of PS mini games don't hold up, like Toshinden, but there's just not much point for general audience to play RRT4 or Tekken 3, when newer games are seen as same but better. MGS and FF7 had ports.
>>10528641
what you say is true for Western sales. it's not true for Japanese sales and critical value. SNES games get praised rightfully, it's your problem if you got filtered. Sega never offered anything on the level of Super Metroid or ALTTP, they rarely pushed boundaries and half the games on Genesis were clones of better NES / SNES games, and/or simplistic arcades. ironically, the best Genesis games like Langrisser / Shining Forse / MW4 are usually overlooked by Genesis fans in favor of same old arcade / sports slop. and if you think good games are FIFA and NFL, why go on /vr/?

>"Resident Evil 1 was the hardest"
No, not in the least. RE1 has the slowest least-aggressive enemies (excluding chimeras fuck those things) with the lowest health. Not only that, but the knife is nearly as strong as the handgun. One guide for RE1 back in the 90s said "Got a spare couple of days?" about using the handgun against Yawn and "No." about using it against Tyrant. In practice, Yawn will take about 18 handgun bullets, Lab Tyrant will take 13, and Helipad Tyrant will take 20.

REmake on the other hand with its higher enemy count, aggression, and general AI improvements (on top of the crimson head mechanic), yes that is a difficult game.

>>10536465
>simplistic arcades
I wish I could castrate all people who think like this. That phrase always comes from the mouth of someone who was never good at playing arcade games. It's always coming from a guy who refused to git gud and now copes by saying those games are bad.

>>10536465
>arcade slop
Drink lye.

>>10536513
One thing about the original that can make it marginally harder are that the hunters can't be hit when they jump, but this was rectified in the REmake.

>>10536380
why on earth do zoomers think they need to be spoonfed everything. does a game's value only come from completion or actually engaging with the design rules and artistry

>>10527201
Resident Evil was never scary at all. It was always cheesy and people didn't take it seriously.

>>10536604
It's not about engaging with the game meaningfully for fun, it's about consooming as many games as possible so you can have cred as a pop culture expert. Look at how popular streaming games has become, lots of kids would rather watch someone play it so they know the 'story' rather than play through the games themselves.

>>10535869
>While not all survival horror games need either of these, I completely reject the idea that they are bad and shouldn't be used.
Why should they be used? Tank control shouldn't be used because people want to do things outside the scope of the control scheme. If there's a dog growling at you in the middle of a narrow hallway, do you walk past it without looking at it or do you keep your eyes on it all the time? Calling it tank control is an insult to tanks, even tanks can rotate their cannon independently of the body.

>>10536768
You are exactly the type I was talking about. While not all survival horror games need fixed camera and tank controls, it is a GOOD mechanic to make combat harder and to make it set up scares without needing a cutscene. Fixed camera angles are great for that, but if you have that, you NEED tank controls or you run into the problem of needing to change the direction you are running all the time.

>>10536424
I will never understand a generation that spends so much money on consoles and games and now DLC to only ever play a game once.

>>10536771
Because there are so many games?

>>10527952
There were multiple examples of games where they intentionally didn't include any checkpoints so they take longer to beat like the first Hitman game

>>10536770
>you NEED tank controls or you run into the problem of needing to change the direction you are running all the time
Devil May Cry have existed for 2 decades and nobody complains about changing direction after a camera cut. Or REmake with directional control. Or Silent Hill 2-4 with 2D control.

>>10536830
>Or REmake with directional control
The retro versions of REmake do not have this. Only the modern remasters. If you play a game meant to have tank controls with directional controls, you are the cancer killing this board.
>nobody complains about changing direction after a camera cut
Actually, this IS a common complaint. It's just drowned out by people like you who are so anti-tank control that you would rather need to reposition your direction every time the camera changes.

"PS2 only sold well because it was a cheap DVD player"

>>10536837
I don't need to change direction on camera cut, the character continues in the same direction until the control goes back to neutral. You don't even know what you criticize.

>>10536913
I do know what I criticize. You either have to change direction every time, or you have to hold a direction completely opposed to where the character is going after a camera change. And if you need to tinker with the direction you're going, you need to reset. It fucking sucks. That's WHY tank controls exist with fixed camera angles. If you don't understand this basic fact, I don't know what to tell you.

>>10535410
I think one guy did in the last Ultima thread

>>10528050
>>10531443
Basically, millenials were the gen who grew up when strategy guides became profitable, they were in diapers when Blockbuster just started and was becoming a behemoth in every town in the US, and they primarily played on Japanese consoles. So they assume that all games were only hard to shill guides and they assume that they were made harder because the Japanese games industry hated rental business(which they did btw).
Then you have games like Wizardry, made when strategy guides were barely a common thing at all, in America, sold to PC's mainly owned by offices and college students, and before Blockbuster was a thing. These games had you getting fucking decapitated the minute you stepped into the dungeon and would later have the most fucking cryptic fucking puzzles known to man, and office workers loving the bragging rights that came with finally having a party that made it to end alive. And I bet shit like the orb in Simon Quest originated from here. The first Megami Tensei, a Japan only game, literally tried to sell itself as being bigger and badder than wizardry.

>>10536950
Japan has an unhealthy fascination with the old Wizardry games beyond the rest of the world.

>FFT
Loathed it after a couple years
It didn't even take a great deal of time like the others. The game design is outdated and just did not age.
Same with TO and OB. It's the nature of SRPGs without gimmicks or QoL. Not unique to FFT because it's a genre trait but it does nothing special. Worse with FFT is that it's overrated to hell and back too.

The entire thing hinges on its presentation.
Story, art, sound. Those are great but that's all it's got. It's a cooked SRPG.
VS aged better.

>>10527218
>>GTA wasn't popular or fun until 3
EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Nah. GTA II was good in it's own right. 3 is just an entirely different game. Popular? Sure. I'll accept it wasn't popular in the way GTA III was but GTA III had fucking not a thing on the popularity of VC and thenm SA.

>>10536091
>>10536234
Retarded zoomers

>>10531443
>>10536117
Dude I keep wondering this, where did everyone go? The people that used BBS to talk about DOS games, the people that played DiabloII and Starcraft on Bnet, the ones that were in college when 4chan started and talked about anime and shit?
Did everyone have so many children that they have no time to log in anymore? Found new life / Found Jesus?
It's like everyone got replaced by these late Millenials and Zoomers that have the absolute worst takes/tastes about games and anime ever.
I've been lamenting this fact specially on the anime side where it seems people watching nowadays came from Tumblr and also represent the worst of twitter.

>>10527201
As someone who spent a lot of time in FF forums during the mid-00s, I'm still somewhat puzzled at all the negative opinions I read on /v/ about FFVIII and —to a lesser extent— FFIX. Back then it was pretty much accepted that both were, along with FFVII, of top quality and you would see people having one of them as their favorite all the time.

>>10537180
Retro Twitch. That's the secret. So many crusty old fucks. It's actually incredibly refreshing. I sometimes follow a guy who's in his 60's.

>>10536117
Zoomer internet does depress the fuck out of me. It's just narcissism, and people sitting around in Discords mutually masturbating.
The reason I liked the internet in the first place is because people would do things. It felt like most communities were at least partially artistic or hobbyist communities back then.
Now it's "look at these twenty pictures of me I just took". I don't give a shit.

>>10537231
Thankyou for this tip. I’ll use it even if I hate twitch for a variety of reasons (like having 50 notifications when I’m not even logged in yet).

>>10537240
All the kiddies are chasing the eceleb dream so they don’t have to get jobs and can just post shitty takes for a living.

>>10537180
agreed. all the cool things we had on the internet and media in general were from Gen Xers and early millennials.

>>10537240
it's because nothing cool is allowed anymore. I hope everyone being kicked out of every platform means we will all go back to having our own websites and decentralized servers.

>>10537258
That guy I mentioned is actually on right now. It's kilg0re_tr0ut, if you're curious.

>>10537272
>I hope everyone being kicked out of every platform means we will all go back to having our own websites and decentralized servers.
I hate to say it but that's what discord is.

>>10527201
The glass tunnel in Super Metroid.
>dood it was so easy just break the tube every body knew how
I'm old enough to actually have rented the fucking cartridge at video rental store when walkthroughs game through a dialup connection.
There was literally no indication, from any in-game interaction, that the tube was destructible. Neither from the x-ray scope or any weapons OTHER than the power bomb.
Jesus fucking christ.

>>10537180
I'm still here, but I mostly lurk.

>>10537396
Bait

>>10537396
>literally no indication, from any in-game interaction, that the tube was destructible.

>>10537417
They probably should have put cracks on it to make it obvious. When you were a kid you probably sped through rooms with no enemies.

>>10537575
If you were a retarded kid maybe. Any other kid would have looked at it. Saw the platform and tried literally EVERYTHING till something happened. Maybe not specifically intuitive but you'd bruit force it just out of sheer curiosity. I swear all you little puds just freeze like a deer in traffic if something isn't completely spelled out.

>>10536525
>>10536559
you missed my point and got angry at what I didn't say.
there are good arcades—like R-Type and other good shmups, arcade Capcom bmups, fighters and so on. and then there are bad arcades like Altered Beast that last for mere minutes and have extremely repetitive gameplay with no real depth. Sega was mostly producing the latter—this goes for such "classics" as Genesis Space Harrier II, Golden Axe, Super Monaco GP, etc.. they were helped by Treasure with its incredibly shallow games that focused on how many sprites you could fit on screen. I don't care what anyone says, and other defenses like "git gud"—these are not good arcades.
if I want good arcades, I'll just go and play something like Garegga, arcade Final Fight, Metal Slug, KoF98, and such.

>>10537396

>>10537396
it's glass

>>10527849
Do you have anyone you can cite to substantiate these thoughts?

Yeah, I thought so.

>look at me everyone, look how contrarian I am!

>>10537383
discord is not decentralized.

>>10537396
You're right. The problem with that tunnel is that every single other breakable object in the game is a block that changes to show the icon of the weapon you need to use on it if you damage it with a rocket, this tube doesn't do that. The game spent hours teaching the player one thing only to expect them to suddenly assume another thing just because it's glass.
The other broken tube doesn't matter because you could just assume it's decoration, like any other decayed or destroyed piece of scenery.

The game is breaking its own rules for this specific spot, it's no wonder people would get confused.

Not really retro, but the whole “everybody hated RE4 when it came out” crowd. It was beloved, and complaining about muh genre change muh no zombies was limited to a handful of 300+ pound neckbeards.

>>10537972
The "RE4 is bad" crowd has always been like two guys, who are mad that the PS1 era of survival horror ended (even though they probably didn't buy RE0).

>>10535273
That's not exactly the same thing. Their expectations may have been unreasonable. A game can sell "well" and still not meet expectations.

>>10531270
/vrpg/ fag here; yes they do.
We do know that, historically, some games were indeed built to fuck over rentals (very specifically Lion King on the 16-bit systems; the devs have admitted to this), but the strategy guide thing was never true. It only seems that way to Americans because the Japanese thought we were literally too retarded to count higher than our fingers or read. That's why FF1 came with a guide that took you all the way to Kraken.

>>10536380
bro it's literally in the fucking guides that came out on the same day as the game, along with other obscure shit like that, like Arden's Pursuit Ring, Dew's Wind Sword and Sylvia's Defend Sword. All of these hidden items have no other way of being obtained, and aren't hinted at ingame in any way.

And not all of these things are giving you advantages, some of them just give more dialogue and explain things about the lore, like this one where Fee talking to her Pegasus about why she named her Mahnya.

People who act like console wars never existed

You can see them ITT

>>10527909
This stuff really irritates me because it always blatantly comes from people who played Sonic 1 to Marble Zone and it's so incredibly obvious. They always lie about it as well and EVEN THEN almost all the criticisms they make are objectively not present in the modern ports of the game.

I genuinely don't get it because the sheer quality/production value of the Sonic games is so incredibly obvious and I cannot believe anyone can play through 2/3/K and even if it's not for them be able to tell that it's a very high quality game with unique gameplay and very complex platformer physics and level design both for its time and today. I genuinely believe these people must be either people who don't actually like platformers playing for 'clout' and getting filtered or salty Nintendo fans still fighting the console wars.

>>10537972
Well I can tell you I was definitely mad about RE4 when it came out and while I will accept that it's a good action game it was 100% a shameless attempt to cash in on what was popular, it was 100% a cynical betrayal of their fanbase and it 100% deserved the shit it got.

I did not buy it on release because I thought it was a really shitty thing to do. RE was (for me) THE iconic horror franchise and to turn it into a non-horror game just chasing what was popular was a shitty thing to do and that remains true today imo even if people have mostly forgotten that.

>>10537240
You're looking at fucking Instagram or normie spaces or some shit, of course you're just seeing selfies

>>10537417
you also didn't say the intro movie shows Samus breaking the glass and also Crystal Flash

>>10539063
I have a hunch that these people simply don't "get" Sonic's gameplay. like there are people who expect Super Metroid to be a run n gun. they do not understand that the fun is in finding all the secrets, and they simply don't see what's good about it.
Sonic's gameplay actually is kind of different from most "classic" games. it's built on branching paths, playing things over and memorization, and what's more, you need to move fast instead of exploring and collecting 100% of everything; most games today are pretty much complete opposite of that—never replay a level, slowly explore and 100% a mostly linear game while collecting everything. it's almost a full 180 from Metroid.
mind you, kids back in the day didn't care about that. but I think the problem is the lowest common denominator. people today get incredibly butthurt the moment they get taken out of their comfort zone. they will flip their shit whenever a game tries something slightly different or when they lose. unlike Sonic or Super Metroid, modern games require literally no brain cells to be understood, they were engineered to be familiar slop, like top 40 songs that all sound the same because familiar = good.

>>10539112
it's a nintendo loyalist thing
>doesn't play like mario/zelda = game is bad
problem is that they always grew up buying nintendo systems one after another and the deeper they're in this pipeline worse it will be when they try games different to what they're used to

>>10529164
In the 90s it was Sonic first then anything else after.

>>10529165
No it means poor controls usually. Clunky controls was a common complaint 30 years ago

>>10534414
I remember how mindblowing it was that Mario and Sonic were at the Olympics together

>>10529165
>To me, a gamer alluding to "clunky" or "janky" aspects always translates in my head to "I was too stupid and impatient to play this game"
go play the first Fire Emblem and marvel at the sheer idiocy of the inventory system, then go play a slightly more modern game (anything more recent than the SNES games) and tell me how clunky isn't an apt way to describe FE1.

>>10538270
They're 90s Sega fans

>>10539118
>muh nintendo
it's not a Nintendo thing, almost every big console game made past 2000 plays like that.

>>10539112
>Sonic's gameplay actually is kind of different from most "classic" games.
Yes but not even then not much. I'm with >>10535903 many just played whatever.
You understand that if you play any game from Mario (1-3) to Kirby to Castlevania you might die a few times if you don't know a boss' attack pattern or whatever. which is why it's even more mindboggling. Even for a mariofag you should know that if you play a game from the retro era you should expect the same. otherwise you'd have to selectively forget the times you died in Mario when screenshoting every time you did in Sonic which is equally difficult.
honestly I don't believe you even played classic mario at that point. It's more like you're a modern gamer LARPING as a nintendofag who hasn't played the titles.

>>10539240
sometimes it's not a big conspiracy. sometimes people just don't like a game.

>>10539112
>playing things over and memorization
My previous post was kind of a mess, what I meant to say is, it's worse since you got these things in any retro games-it's what playing any old game entails, even classic Mario.
>>10539298
It's also possible you simply don't vibe with the style, true. But given you don't get blogs/celebs frequently going over how they don't vibe with Kirby/Castlevania... it's kind of a "conspiracy" here.

>>10539098
Requires you to beat the game.

>>10537417
>be taught that shit will either change color, shape or react in some way when you shoot it, even when the weapon doesn't break it
>if all else fails, use x-ray scope
>tube doesn't
>broken tube doesn't
>looks like a static piece of the environment
>20 years later, zoomers try to tell you that it was the most obvious shit in the world

>>10539981
It's not about being obvious. It's about you being so retarded you can't even experiment. Just try shit. You have so many options for any given puzzle you're going to brute force it by accident anyways. If you where complaining about that we might not be calling you stupid but the problem is you faggots always just panic when you don't know what to do and freeze. It's a video game. You're not going to break it you try stuff.

>>10539112
>most games today are pretty much complete opposite of that—never replay a level, slowly explore and 100% a mostly linear game while collecting everything
It does annoy me a bit when people can't let go of this mentality when they play certain old games.

It even applies to the NES Marios, if you play 3 one time you aren't going to 'get it'. I speak from experience, when I was in my teens I played through Mario 3 just once and didn't see the big deal. Later in life I decided to try doing occasional playsessions of it where I just start from the beginning every time, like kids who had the NES verison had to. As I replayed the game once every few days, aspects of it started to really appeal to me, now I think it's the best 2D Mario there is.

This applies to lots of games, and classic Sonic is among them. The idea of a game being designed around replayability instead of a one-time experience just never enters their fucking minds. They don't play games to appreciate them they just consume one and move on to the next.

>>10539981
It's Metroid, not Myst.

>>10539981
>there are people who's first reaction in a game, when they need to pass through a barrier, isn't to start blasting it with shit just to see what happens
How are you even alive?
How does your brain not go "maybe explosives can break glass"?

>>10540014
NPC mindset anon
These are the people that don't press every button to see what it does when they first play the game
It's why we have handholding in every game now

>>10537779
Kek

>>10540014
I'm playing Super Metroid for the first time right now. I didn't know you could break the glass tunnel. I just learned it in this thread. I'm honestly not sure why you, or anyone else, would expect a player to not immediately assume it's environmental rather than interactive. It's part of the language of video games. You see a door, you try to open it. You see a window, you don't try to break it and climb through - you just assume it's environmental, because designers generally don't hide sections of their games behind fucking windows. I bet you're the kind of person who'd argue that the Hellkite Drake wrecking your shit was totally fair because there are burn marks on the stones as you walk across the bridge.

>>10540045
Because look at the map.
>>10537417
Look at the platform. Look at everything. TRY SHIT!

>>10540074
Maybe it's more obvious later on that it's a progress gate of some kind - I've only explored most of Brinstar and Norfair so far - but given that literally every other passageway up to this point has been hidden by destructible blocks or colored doors, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that it's just a room. If there's literally only one path forward and it's made of glass, sure, blasting it is a reasonable expectation of the player. But in a non-linear game where every other route is behind a door or a block and it literally just looks like part of the background? Don't know about that.

>>10540104
>If there's literally only one path forward and it's made of glass, sure, blasting it is a reasonable expectation of the player. But in a non-linear game where every other route is behind a door or a block and it literally just looks like part of the background?
and this is why non-linearity is absolutely ass from a game design perspective. the glass tube in metroid is the equivalent of when the background in NES platforming games is indistinguishable from things you can actually jump on

>>10527201
I've seen people say a variation of this "oh Doom? doesn't it run on anything?" "Doom is so cheap/easy to run" which somehow morphs into "Doom could run on anything back then" in their minds. Because of the meme where people put Doom on any modern computer/chip/machine.
They don't realize that yes, Doom was insanely well coded and COULD run even on a 386 (like crap, but it could) but the fact that chips have gotten so incredibly faster, that even a basic controller setup for a fridge is hundreds of times better than a 486.
I've even seen some people genuinely puzzled when explained that, yes being able to get Doom on a console was huge thing, the SNES version had a big helper chip and still looked and run very poorly. The Jaguar and consoles of that era were trying to lure people with the idea of pc-level Doom, it genuinely an amazing thing to offer and people were going nuts over the prospect of Doom on consoles.
Also not everyone had a capable PC back then in their homes they costed thousands if you adjust for inflation, unless you were middle class+ or your father had some sort of job where he needed a PC (like a company or digital books or something similar). I had very few friends/people to talk about playing Doom back when it came out.

But zoomers think that back then, Doom ran on calculators and everyone played it.

>>10540045
>because designers generally don't hide sections of their games behind fucking windows
It's a Metroid game. Everything is hidden. How did you figure out how to bomb rocks?

The one thing I'll say about the tube is that people have been having this argument about it for as long as I can remember. Regardless of which side of the argument you fall on, it's a very old argument.

Just like the carnival night zone barrel-thing.

>>10539643
>you got these things in any retro games-it's what playing any old game entails, even classic Mario.
I'll tell you a little secret—most of these people don't play NES games. "Sonic was never good" crowd is the same one as "retro games have artificial difficulty and outdated game design" crowd. they're the ones who prefer walking simulators
>>10540001
frankly, I think it takes some experience / age to go out of your comfort zone. I used to only like action games. I thought I'd never like fighting games, strategies, shmups or RPGs. but as time went by, I slowly started getting the appeal. it's sort of like a rat that doesn't see the lever, so to speak. you just feel nothing if you play these games in the wrong mindset, not seeing that a fun thing should be fun.
being familiar with a genre helps a lot, like after entry level games like Pokemon, Mario RPGs or Earthbound you could go to DQ, then tactical RPGs or crazier stuff like SaGa. sadly, today most of the niche genres died, people are encouraged to like same AAA slop.

>>10540001
We just left our NES running to save Mario 3.