/vr/ - Retro Games

>>10422661
regular turned based is better

its shit. Its turn based but youre watching a bar increase. Even when its full, you still have to sometimes wait for your enemy to attack first

"Real time" ATB in 7R and 12 is even worse

ATB sucks. I like being able to get up and take a piss between actions

>>10422661
Was never good

>>10422661
Every innovation JRPGs try to make the games actually fun to play is meaningless because the problem isn't the battle system itself it's having to fight 750 battles throughout the course of the game

>>10422661
Awful like turn based in general. Hardly makes it better and just a cheap excuse to make it so

In some cases it doesn't even matter. The action is still going to stop while everyone waits for his turn due to spells or other long animations. In the cases where the timer doesn't even stop during those animations it also means that the player is better off spamming quick attacks rather than using a spell that will waste a lot of time, thus rendering spells less worth using, thus making combat more one sided and boring.

There are better ways to make turned based fights more dynamic, if that's what you want. ATB is just half assed.

>>10422661
>How do you feel about ATB in general?
Can be fun when done right but isn't a particularly deep system. Worked really well for the early-mid 90s Final Fantasy games but after that it really wasn't worth it.
People posting vehement hatred of ATB are sub-80 IQ trolls or zoomers who never played any of these games on their original systems.

>>10422661
It can get annoying, most of the time i just ignore it since its just part of jrpgs.

>>10422661
>>10422663
This.
I don't hate it or anything but it's annoying to have some slower character in your party who barely gets to do anything but conversely it's absolutely silly how many turn you can have in a row with some Haste spells.

>>10422680
Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons I prefer Dragon Quest these days. I don't know if it's some combination of bad memory and confirmation bias, but I really feel that you can sometimes actually go through a whole room without a single encounter in DQ while in, say, FF it feels like there's an encounter every few steps.

>>10422661
It's overhated.

>>10422661
Its the exact same thing as turn based just that if you make your selections slower you lose a turn.
Its completely fine and makes menuing a bit more engaging as you need to make your decisions and sections faster.
I've never understood why people cry about it as I've never even seen a game that can't have ATB turned off.

It barely changes anything in 90% of situations.

>>10422680
What? The battles are the game. What else would you do, explore 2D environments and watch cutscenes?

>>10422661
it gets old pretty fast

I turned it on and off in FF7 and FF8 and could not really tell any difference.

>>10422661
It's a waiting mechanic.

>>10422956
The encounter system works differently in FF than it does in DQ. In FF it's like, every step you have the same % chance of getting an encounter; but DQ switches between battle phases and exploration phases, moments when you'll get a lot of fights in a row, and moment when they let you explore

I can't. It is a concept and therefore intangible.

>>10423180
How it any different than arguing on 4chan?

quite honestly i don't think about it at all. any turn-based game has a mechanism of some sort that usually boils down to speed. you manipulate that factor as best you can, and the effect feels the same in every fucking game so i'm not going to fill my diaper over the particulars

>>10423507
This.

>>10422661
Round-based is usually better overall, where all actors' actions are queued up simultaneously and executed in order.
ATB only works when a game is explicitly designed around it.
CTB is the normie's choice which they perceive as a superior alternative to ATB.

>>10423507
>>10423540
A parodic turn based RPG based around your average internet squabbles would honestly be interesting.
Imagine the controversy it could bring, especially with the modding potential.

It makes the game harder and more intense and thus stressful.

>>10422680
Rpg stories are all garbage. The battles are literally the reason to be playing the game in the first place. Otherwise just go read a book. If this leaves you thinking "but in that case most rpgs are easy worthless trash" then you're starting to get it.

>>10422680
The problem isn't this, because there have been plenty of recent games which have attempted to go with the
>no trash encounters/only meaningful encounters
route, and what you invariably wind up with is a bunch of overtuned puzzle fights that don't allow players to engage with the game properly since the devs force you to play the game "their" way.
This is also why recent games featuring break/stagger/non-intuitive weakness hunting mechanics are poorly designed as well - nothing but extra steps to make the player think they're engaging with the game. AKA fake gameplay.

>>10423540
>twitter “humor”

>>10423729
>what you invariably wind up with is a bunch of overtuned puzzle fights that don't allow players to engage with the game properly since the devs force you to play the game "their" way.
This is also why recent games featuring break/stagger/non-intuitive weakness hunting mechanics are poorly designed as well - nothing but extra steps to make the player think they're engaging with the game. AKA fake gameplay.

Which games specifically are you talking about?

>>10423729
the only games that do what you're talking about it larian shit, and that's because they're fucking dating sims for lonely virgins and fat women instead of games.
Pillars of Eternity, ATOM, Shadowrun, and Age of Decadence aren't puzzle fight shit, but none of them have even 100 encounters in the entire game.

>>10422661
Why do you keep making this thread? What possible purpose does it serve? Are you so fragile that you need validation, not over any specific game, but just a basic feature present in some subgenre?

>>10424039
This is the first thread I've ever made on 4channel

>>10423134
>What else would you do, explore 2D environments and watch cutscenes?
Yes. And now most modern JRPGs are doing just that.

>>10424430
But that's stupid. I play /vr/ JRPGs so I can avoid that narrative-focused shit. I want my autism spreadsheet combat games. Go to /v/ if you disagree

>>10423369
a fart is intangible but you'd feel something if i farted on your face

>>10422661
>faster characters get to act more often
good, this is a concept from real tabletop games
>it happens in real time
that's fucking retarded

>>10422680
>>10423134
>>10423705
professional gamedev here
jrpgs work when you can turn off your head and have some sense of progression, even grind a little bit

jrpgs that use charm and quick mob battles are the one people get back the most, it's not about the plot of these games or the fun combat

it's the charming progression

>>10422667
Wrong. You can pass control to another character that has a full bar in most games. Hardly turn based at that point, no?

It sucks. FFIV killed the series.

That you all answer this question as if you're talking about FFVII rather than FFX-2 or Chrono Trigger is proof you are all faggots.

>>10422668
Pause the game, idiot.
>>10422680
>750
Casual as fuck. We're talking thousands.
>>10422956
You never played a DQ game, or you played the faggoty newer ones. The random encounters occur every 5 steps in the FC/NES DQs.

>>10424842
I saw someone here recently refer to simple retro style JRPGs as essentially tamagotchis and they're right. It's just about watching your little guy get beefier and cleaning up his shits (inventory). It's satisfying.

>>10424863
>FC/NES DQs
the fuck you talking about? these games suck. first two literally basic as fuck. third tried to innovate, but still you're just goofing around in the big ass world. fourth one is actually decent for its time but ds version is absolutely better compared to NES original.

>>10422661
an attempt to make an inherently bad battle system "hard" through artificial constraints rather than addressing its real problems

I feel like it takes away all the strategy of jrpg battles. I don't like to feel rushed. I like to take my time and ponder my course of action. Will I choose Fight? Or maybe I will choose Fight. The options are endless.

>>10423558
I was thinking about this, and it does bring in a point- when ATB is just turn based with meters, it's really not gaining anything. But when the speed stats matter and you have something like a boss being much faster than the party, or the healer being the slowest character, you get those interesting moments that really make the player engaged. Something like Bahamut's iconic Megaflare countdown wouldn't be nearly as terrifying to a player in a non-ATB setting.

It's part of the reason I couldn't really enjoy FFX flat out showing you how the turn order would proceed when it did away with ATB. Battles became more rote than ever since it was all laid out for you to see (and exploit).

>>10424842
You sound like the reason modern games are garbage.

>>10425541
I thought the same thing but his phoneposting larping made me think his "pro gamedev" was probably some unity gargabe only his mom and his cousin bought so he probably was not worth responding to.

>>10425550
I feel it's important to remind them lest hubris take hold and he thinks he had a valid point.

>>10424842
that's just brainhacking bullshit
"let's get this fight over with so you can get to the rewards screen! look what you unlocked! don't you want to sink more time into this to unlock more?!"
no fuck you, it's in the moment-to-moment gameplay. it's when you're halfway in the dungeon with only one more healing herb, no return-to-town spell, and having to solve puzzles while dealing with tough random encounters. that's rpg gameplay

>>10425603
Based fellow RPG enjoyer

>>10425603
That design attitude has completely ruined roguelikes as well. They're all cluttered with shitty progression elements to keep players on a hamster wheel and it destroys them. There hasn't been a new good roguelike in years now.

>>10425620
It's the reason why the unholy meme genres/mechanics with "fake gameplay"
>roguelike/roguelite
>deckbuilder
>procgen
have quickly become despised by anyone with an IQ above room temperature.
Any good examples of the above have been given an awful reputation by the hordes of shitty examples that keep getting pumped out by AAAs and indies alike. People aren't developing games they wanted to see, or games for fun - they're literally just developing to pad out play time and engagement stats at this point. It's fucking pitiful.

>>10425641
Yeah roguelikes basically don't exist anymore. They're all progression treadmills with "roguelike elements" it sucks.

>>10424479
If you actually wanted what you said you wanted you would be on /vst/. You just like to press one button for 20-70 hours.

>>10425591
If the rest of the world acted this way we would not be in the dire straits we currently live in.

>>10425656
RTS games are not fun

>>10425541
>>10425550
my jrpg it's at "very positive" at steam, thank you very much

>>10425603
i din't say jrpg are about mobil-like false rewards and dopamine rush

what i said is that sea of stars don't have progression, so mob battles became frustrating. And jrpgs where all mob battles are difficult, gets frustrating too

all the classic have easy mob battles you can grind to, or if you are in the mood of it, try a dungeon at a low level and have that kind of gameplay you just said, but it's a option

overworking the battle system is not the answer

>>10425790
>my jrpg it's at "very positive" at steam, thank you very much

Dare you mention it here? Either way all that does is highlight what we already know which is that modern audiences don't want games they want little progression simulators to keep a constant dopamine drip going. Saying you have a popular game out only solidifies that you are the problem.

>>10425795
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1375760/Tropicalia/

nah, you guys are just projecting a lot of gaming frustations on my opinion. Challenge can be part of the charm, I santd my ground jRPG work when they have charming progression.

My favorite one: BoF3

>>10425886
To be fair that game does look pretty charming.

>>10425886
i prefer games like wizardry, etrian odyssey, arcana, shining in the darkness: dungeon exploration and combat games where story and characters take a backseat

>>10422661
who cares, you still only end up pressing 1 button the entire game until end credits

>>10426006
Etrian Odyssey killed every other jrpg for me.

>>10426020
yeah because it's the best. you just make fuckin characters and go into the dungeon, combat is fun, music is great, there's challenge, mapping is fun

i remember when i played chrono trigger as a kid i'd pick "wait" because i thought active was too stressful.

when it comes to rpgs, if i'm gonna play one, then i'm probably in the mood to be more analytical about my choices. i didn't do so when i was a kid but i can geek out pretty hard on the details and exact nature of stats. i think the speed stat in chrono trigger affects how hard you can hit with ranged weapons or something? maybe i'm just thinking of lucca's wondershot?

you can make an argument that an active battle system is more trve because it's more challenging, potentially, but i like seeing the fruits of understanding the details of the combat system.

>>10422661
awful

>>10422661
Have, twice the opponents speed, attack twice as often; it makes sense.

>>10422663
fpbp

>>10425886
Kek I knew it was gonna be some garbage like this. This looked like goatshit when you shilled it on /v/ years ago, and it still looks like goatshit now.

>>10423903
Meanwhile, 4chan humor is just a sad mimicry to reddit humor.

>>10422661

It's fine

>>10422661
Completely worthless and everyone would realize how obviously terrible it was if it had ever been used in a game that was difficult enough for it to be salient

I would like some extra systems added on top. For example delaying your move can overcharge the ATB for a more powerful attack, or locking in an action before a character can attack gives a small buff.

>>10427352
>For example delaying your move can overcharge the ATB for a more powerful attack
I'm going to put aside all the things that are similar to this because I Am Setsuna just outright does this. Actually it not only does it, you choose whether to use it or not or keep saving it with something similar to the FFVIII gunblade and LoD addition mechanics and bonuses can be extra effects and not just damage.

>>10427352
Grandia has a touch of that, but it's so piss easy none of it ever matters.

>>10427537
Dragon Quarter did it better, sooner.
>AP = how many actions you can perform in a turn, and how far you can move
>character gains 100% of their AP each turn
>AP can fill up to 200% of the character's max AP value
>some of the best strategies revolve around saving up or feeding AP to a character so they can do longer combos and deal massive damage
Not to mention that AP manipulation is vital to surviving
>AP is consumed whenever a combatant moves
>you can use skills that push, pull, and move combatants around to force them to waste AP reaching their target, or to save AP you could never have spent trying to reach them in the first place
>this more often than not has significant effects (enemies will lose entire attacks over this, which is critical to survival in the early game)

>>10427638
I will now play this game.

>>10427638
i still hate this game with a passion

>>10423574
thank you for vaguely reminding me of forumwarz or whatever it was called

>>10422661
I vastly prefer regular turn based, action turn based to me feels like it actively encourages easier battles because of the time limit, it’s why a lot of Square’s RPGs became easy as shit.

>>10424493
Based anon, it's tangible. At least if I'm farting. Then you'll need to guard your wallet, just in case.

>>10422661
Honestly it's probably half the cause of my negative sentiments to Chrono Trigger. I don't like the implementation there much.