/vr/ - Retro Games

Yes it could have, so long as the games were up to snuff. And it may very well could have been, who knows.

>>10387557
Early impressions say no, 60fps games say itd sit easy with a ps2 in the final years though.

>>10387624
At one point Halo and GTA III were going to be released for the Dreamcast, it damn well had a chance but SEGA finally ran out of gas before it could've gone the distance.

>>10387659
>Halo
Just the idea of playing fps game with Dreamcast controller is already horrifying

I thought N64 was bad enough

>>10388392
dreamcast had mouse+keyboard

>>10388392
>Just the idea of playing fps game with Dreamcast controller is already horrifying
>I thought N64 was bad enough
It's not a big deal. Just use the Dreamcast Keyboard and Mouse.

Or Sega could have released a revised controlle. They've done it before with the Genesis and Saturn.

>>10388392
It seems likely they'd have needed to release a dual stick pad if the system continued. The DC controller was inadequate for the direction games went as that generation progressed.

>>10387557
Dreamcast would do fine. There's no huge difference between Dreamcast, PS2, Gamecube or Xbox. They are all the same generation of graphics. Xbox might look *slightly* better than the others, but it's not a big difference.

>>10387557
Of course it could successfully compete with other 6th gen consoles. When you look at the specs, Dreamcast's CPU is clocked at ~200MHz while PS2's CPU is clocked at ~300MHz. PS2 vastly outsold the Xbox, which had a CPU running at ~700MHz, and Gamecube, which had a CPU running at ~400MHz, so why couldn't Dreamcast do the same?

Comparing GPUs of those devices is less straightforward, but Dreamcast's GPU was much easier to program for. PS2 used bespoken hardware vastly different to modern systems (that's why it's still quite hard to emulate) with little mixed results to show for it. Lower percentage of PS2 games can output at 480p through component than the percantage of Dreamcast games that can output at 480p through VGA. PS2 games mostly use 480i, which only requires filling half the pixels on the screen in a frame and reduces computational requirements.

Rayman 2 on Dreamcast runs at locked 60 FPS (except at the level selection screen, but how much time do you spend there anyway?), Rayman Revolution on PS2 only runs at 30 FPS with some drops. Admittedly the PS2 version has the open-world hub to explore so that makes it slightly more impressive from the technical standpoint, but was the frame rate sacrifice worth it?

When it comes to emulating those two systems, the PS2 is vastly more difficult to emulate mostly because a) PS2's hardware is very much "it's own thing", which Dreamcast used off-the-shelf parts; b) Dreamcast emulators see more active development while PS2 emulator devs are just lazy and incompetent (they only ported their program to 64-bit x86 in 2022 FFS).

>>10388392
They probably would've had to pull a Sony and release an updated controller with dual analogue and extra shoulder buttons

>>10387557
I don't think so. It was weaker than the PS2 and its discs had less storage size than the GC's mini DVD's.

>>10387557
I really like the architecture of the Dreamcast’s motherboard. It’s simple compared to the Saturn and reminds me of the Genesis.

>>10388392
>Just the idea of playing fps game with Dreamcast controller is already horrifying
>I thought N64 was bad enough

I honestly had little problem playing FPS games on the DC using the stock pad. But the lack up buttons has always been an issue. The system does have a mouse and keyboard.

>>10388494
>>>10387557 (OP)
>Of course it could successfully compete with other 6th gen consoles. When you look at the specs, Dreamcast's CPU is clocked at ~200MHz while PS2's CPU is clocked at ~300MHz. PS2 vastly outsold the Xbox, which had a CPU running at ~700MHz, and Gamecube, which had a CPU running at ~400MHz, so why couldn't Dreamcast do the same?

The DC needed more memory. But maybe that was hard to do in 1998? The CPU does have 16MB's of SDRAM. while the GPU seems to have four 2MB modules. Which is 16MB main and 8MB Vram, a total of 24MB's of SDRAM with two additional MB for the audio chip. Early reports for this system was that it would have 32MB's of RAM total. The extra 8MB's could have also helped Windows CE games run better overall.

>>10387557
Absolutely not. GameCube launch titles like Luigi’s Mansion or Rogue Leader were well beyond what the Dreamcast hardware was capable of.

>>10388560
gamecube was the most powerful 6th gen console

>>10387624
Not a chance in hell the Dreamcast hardware could handle MGS2, let alone Snake Eater. The 'main' sixth gen consoles were far more powerful.

>>10387557
Ps2 had a year over dc to release quake arena and it still looks worse.

>>10388563
The Dreamcast hardware couldn’t keep up with any of the big three sixth gen consoles. Thinking otherwise is delusional.

>>10388392
>has no idea face buttons can be used for movement
So sick of hearing dreamcast needed a 2nd analog stick. What it needed was to feel comfortable to hold.

>>10388574
PS2 could not run Shenmue.

>>10388579
I’ve never believed this. The PS2 had the Yakuza series and several other games that looked better than Shenmue.

>>10388560
>>10388563
>>10388574
They all the look the same.

>>10388583
False.

>>10387557
>outclassed
This is the case. Just like the Saturn was too weak compared to PS1 and N64, with the DC the gap would've widened. It had a few impressive games for its time but you realize how basic they were, carried by strong art direction more than pure power.
>>10388579
Signing an exclusivity deal with Microsoft doesn't mean PS2 couldn't run Shenmue. Otherwise it also means that GC couldn't run it either. Shenmue is extremely basic visually, like it doesn't use any DC-exclusive quirk that couldn't be replicated elsewhere.

You think DC could run stuff like Black, Burnout 3, Resident Evil 4, Ninja Gaiden without the ports being heavily compromised?

Hell, it wouldn't even run OutRun2.

>>10388583
gamecube brutally mogs the rest

>>10387557
Only if they also released the 128x at the same time so it could run Crysis

>>10388587
>but you realize how basic they were, carried by strong art direction more than pure power.

Nailed it. Dreamcast games tended to be bright and colorful looking with great art direction, but character models and environments were pretty simplistic and blocky looking upon closer inspection.

>>10388586
>>10388590
Dreamcast and Gamecube look the same to me. Provide proof to make think otherwise.

>>10388593
AI made image detected.

>>10388563
Reading tendie cope is always funny. It couldn't even run Burnout 3 as admitted by the devs.

>>10388609
See >>10388587

>You think DC could run stuff like Black, Burnout 3, Resident Evil 4, Ninja Gaiden without the ports being heavily compromised?

DC struggled to run Model 3 ports even. Sega Rally 2 running at inconsistent framerate mostly targeting 30 instead of 60fps. Virtua Fighter 3 TB being a downgrade of the arcade. Meanwhile the "weak" PS2 was running Virtua Fighter 4 in all its glory.

>>10387557
>>10387557
>>10387557

no. It was not powerful enough even with the BEST 3rd party software support possible in the world. It would've floundered and died due to Sega being in the hole, Playstation 2 coming out and being completely obsolete roughly a few years after its release.

>>10387557
Third party developers didn't like making games for GC because GC discs held 1.5 GB of data. Dreamcast discs held only 1 GB of data. It was never going to be real competition for the PS2.

>>10388625
I think a lot of people don’t know that the Dreamcast launched in Japan basically a full year earlier than in North America. It was three years into its life cycle by the time the GameCube and Xbox launched in late 2001.

>>10388642
You say that like it's a big deal. Just have multiple discs for the Dreamcast if your game is big. It's not a big deal.

>>10388658
They didn't really do that for the Gamecube, why would they bother with the dreamcast?

>>10388668
Irrelevant.

>>10388668
>They didn't really do that for the Gamecube, why would they bother with the dreamcast?
They literally did you dum dum. How can you call yourself a Gamecube fanboy, and not even know Gamecube had games with several discs?

>>10388679
If by ‘several' you mean two discs, sure.

>>10388668
>They didn't really do that for the Gamecube, why would they bother with the dreamcast?
Retard

>>10388625
>DC struggled to run Model 3 ports even. Sega Rally 2 running at inconsistent framerate mostly targeting 30 instead of 60fps. Virtua Fighter 3 TB being a downgrade of the arcade. Meanwhile the "weak" PS2 was running Virtua Fighter 4 in all its glory.

The devs said somewhere on Twitter that the PC version of Sega Rally was made first, and then they they made the Windows port of Sega Rally 2, and then ported the windows version to DC using the WindowsCE wrapper. The DC version is a carbon copy of the PC game with a worse draw distance and uncapped 60fps framerate that jumps all over the place.

https://youtu.be/Cjx8damSrAg?t=144

Sega Rally 2 was the first DC game to use WindowsCE. I think Sega was using the port as a test of the performance they would get from a WindowsCE port.

>>10388685
Wouldn’t really work with the GTA games. Not that the Dreamcast could’ve handled them regardless.

>>10388668
>They didn't really do that for the Gamecube, why would they bother with the dreamcast?
What kind of comment is this? Have you never played a Gamecube game with more than 1 disc?

>>10388625
>Meanwhile the "weak" PS2 was running Virtua Fighter 4 in all its glory.

It's a great port, but even the PS2 version of Virtua Fighter 4 doesn't look as good as the NAOMI2 original arcade game But close.

>>10388672
>>10388685
>>10388694
>didn't really bother
Around 20 games on gamecube had two discs, my point was that most developers just released compromised ports to the gamecube. It would have been eber worse on the Dreamcast.

>>10388702
This, plus the GC games that came on two discs were all exclusives, not multiplats.

>>10388693
>Wouldn’t really work with the GTA games. Not that the Dreamcast could’ve handled them regardless.
GTA 3 was originally designed on the Dreamcast, and was going to be released on it. Learn your history.

>>10388702
>just released compromised ports to the gamecube.
That's not what you said >>10388668
>They didn't really do that for the Gamecube, why would they bother with the dreamcast?


You are a liar.

>>10388721
Sure but it wouldn’t have been the same game as what it ended up being on the PS2’s more powerful hardware.

>>10388579
>>10388587
Yu Suzuki himself said the ps2 was incapable of running Shenmue. But if you two know more i guess i stand corrected. Xbox version of Shenmue 2 also looked worse than dreamcast.

>>10388726
>>10388710

>>10388726
"didn't really bother" means there was not a serious effort by third parties, not that there were no two disc gamecube games. It isn't my fault that you are ESL.

>>10388582
Yu Suzuki does not go around lying.

>>10388725
>Dreamcast discs held only 1 GB of data.
>Ok just have multiple discs.
>They never did it for Gamecube
>They did for many games.
>Well Uhhh...GTA would never run on Draamcast. It can't handle it.
>Rockstar developed GTA 3 on the Dreamcast first.
Everyone laugh at this anon moving his goalposts so much.

>>10388741
You are the only person who said never, learn to read.

>>10388725
If we compare dreamcast and ps2 multiplats the dreamcast gta3 would have looked better.

>>10388741
What the fuck are you babbling about?

>>10388392
Actually, Halo is basically the reason why we're using twin sticks for shooters today. A few games used it on PSX but it wasn't great and it wasn't the standard control style. Time Splitters was the first to truly use the two-stick style but the first Time Splitters wasn't very popular (2 was huge though). Halo came out and used it and basically popularized the control style.

So in another reality, we could have been playing Halo with a single stick on Dreamcast and it wouldn't have been any different than other shooters of the era.

>>10388751
Not a chance.

>>10388754
WASD + mouse wasn’t even the standard on PC until the late 90s.

>>10388736
>"didn't really bother" means
No it doesn't. You are just back pedaling.

>>10388751
>looks better
>comes on two discs
>still no radio

>>10388759

>>10388693
>Wouldn’t really work with the GTA games.
The roms of GTA 3 are less than 1 GB for the original releases. It would fit just fine on Dreamcast discs.

>Not that the Dreamcast could’ve handled them regardless.
GTA 3 was originally made for the Dreamcast. They had a working prototype game. But then Sega went bankrupt and shut down Dreamcast. So they switched releases to PS2 last minute

>>10388775
Yes, anon, I am aware that some early PS2 ports looked worse than the Dreamcast versions. There isn’t a single chance in hell the Dreamcast hardware could have run GTAIII/Vice City/SA without being extremely downgraded.

>>10388775
Different anon here but I want to say its surprising how there's little difference between the two versions. Maybe some minor lighting tweaks but that's it. I expected more from the PS2.

>>10388786
Some? Try all if them. And Gta3 was originally designed for dreamcast.

>>10388782
They switched to PS2 and then completely overhauled the game to utilize the more powerful hardware and DVD storage capability. I don’t know if there’s any footage of the Dreamcast prototype out there, but I seriously doubt it really resembles the final product.

>>10388786
>There isn’t a single chance in hell the Dreamcast hardware could have run GTAIII/Vice City/SA without being extremely downgraded.

They literally released GTA3 for PC on CD-ROM.

CD-ROM.

Lmao.

Of course Dreamcast could run GTA3. Stop arguing. You won't win his argument. This is embarrassing for you.

>>10388795
Delusional.

>>10388797
Hmm it’s almost as if PCs have this thing called a hard drive.

>>10388801
I've posted side by side examples that prove my point. PS2 ports of deamcast games also run worse.

>>10388796
I always wondered if some of these earlier builds were from the dc

>>10388786
>>10388725
If Dreamcast can run Omikron the Nomad Soul and Shenmue, then it can run GTA 3. If fact, GTA 3 probably would have looked very similar to Omikron the Nomad Soul since both are sandbox style games.

>>10388803
It's almost like they can fit the entire game on CD-ROM. Oh wait they did.

>>10388808
Look anon, I love the Dreamcast, but there was just no way the aging hardware could have kept up past 2002.

>>10388830
Prove it.

>>10388826
IIRC it came on at least two CDs that obviously installed to the hard drive.

>>10388817
Definitely not. Neither of those games had as much going on at the same time as the PS2 era GTA games.

>>10388582
Yakuza PS2 series had cheap fixed camera visuals and overall doesn't look better than Shenmue in the slightest

>>10388797
>>10388826
It comes on two CD ROM and requires extracting to a hard drive. Who the fuck are you trying to fool.

Dreamcast games, in reality, are hyper detailed N64 and PS1 games.
The level geometry, the textures on everything but the main characters, the polygon count, the lighting, all of it is clearly subpar when compared to anything on the PS2, Xbox, or GC.
Compare Grandia 2 or Skies of Arcadia to FFX. DMC to Blue Stinger or Code Veronica. GT3 or Ridge Racer 5 to Tokyo Extreme Racing or Daytona.
And that's simply comparing very early in production games on the weakest console. The Dreamcast couldn't do much more than SoulCalibur at its best. Even Shenmue runs terribly, has an extremely low draw distance, has almost no NPCS on screen, and has to section entire areas behind loading screens. Basically any type of large open environment in DC games crawls by despite having really nothing in it
A game like FF12, or SA would simply cripple the Dreamcast.

>>10388826
>>10388864
BTFO

>>10388871
Facts. I think anons like >>10388838 just want to argue.

>>10388864
>misses the entire point about CD-ROM

This PROVES other anon's point that the GTA III game could fit on Dreamcast's larger Gd-Rom discs.

We aren't discussing installing them to hard drives because that's completely irrelevant. Developers could optimize a game to run purely from the disc without needing installation. So it's meaningless in this debate.

>>10387557
The downfall of the dreamcast was that the games became very easy to pirate.
Once disc burners became affordable it was all downhill from there.

>>10388658
That'd be hard to do for something like GTA3.

>>10388731
>Yu Suzuki himself said the ps2 was incapable of running Shenmue
Skill issue.

>>10388902
The two discs are 752MB each. You can't even fit that on a single Gamecube disc (1.4GB).

>>10388902
In theory the Dreamcast could have a version of GTAIII, but it would be far inferior to the PS2 or Xbox versions.

>>10388797
>>10388803
>>10388826
>>10388840
>>10388864
>>10388876
Hey retards. The PS2 version is under 1 GB minus dummy files and runs straight off the disc. The game would be even lighter with the textures downgraded to levels that the Dreamcast could feasibly stream.

>>10388731
The guy employed by Sega says a competitor's system can't run a Sega game. I'm sure that's a totally unbiased, thoroughly researched position, right?

>>10388907
Not really. In markets that actually matter like Japan and North America, piracy was definitely not the main reason the Dreamcast ultimately failed.

>>10388741
Can we actually see this Dreamcast GTA3? Something tells me it didn't get that far and looked nothing like the final game.

>>10388915
Yes and that was made possible by the PS2’s DVD technology. A hypothetical Dreamcast version would be a major downgrade in every conceivable way.

>>10388912

Yet we have original Xbox roms of GTA3 that are 734MB in total.

It can be done.

Before you reply again you need to apologize to everyone in this thread when you started this whole nonsense debate about Dreamcast discs not being good enough storage for GTA.

>>10388921
The game would have run at 15 FPS max anyway so I don't know why this dude is so obsessed about it.

>>10388927
I didn't start shit and I apologize for nothing.

>>10388494
One thing to note about emulation. How difficult a system is to emulate does not necessarily correspond to its complexity or difficultly to develop for. You could easily make a system near impossible to emulate whist having very little effect on developing for that system. One particularly notable thing with the ps2 is its non-standard floating point, there is no way to make this fast on normal cpus, that's why ps2 emulators need game specific hacks.

>>10388912
Ganecube didn't get GTA because Nintendo didn't want the game on their system. Not because it couldn't be technically done.

https://youtu.be/zFjRD_8aVl8?si=ZGtAw03UKdD4CNmz

Here's a later gen multiplat that also includes PSP. I feel like the Dreamcast would have at least kept some pace here. Remember the Switch is still holding up mostly okay with the PS5 and Series X outside of a few standouts like the recent MK1 insanity.

>>10388927
I think anon’s argument was that the Dreamcast would have been capable of running GTAIII 1:1 with the PS2 version. Definitely not, a ton of content would have to be cut.

>>10388936
>Remember the Switch is still holding up mostly okay
lol. lmao

>>10387557
these threads should be a fucking bannable offense. i wonder how many "what if?" SEGA posts there have been over the years between Saturn and Dreamcast alone. postulating about what could've happened is not retro games. it's gay and retarded. you want to know what would've happened had Dreamcast survived? it wouldn't have, because if it did, it wouldn't have been the Dreamcast. the Dreamcast was a shitty inbetweener that straddled the line between 5th gen and 6th gen technology. it was basically two N64s taped together with a terrible optical drive that sounded like a wood chipper and took 5 minutes to load games. it had a retarded controller with only one joystick and less buttons than its predecessor. it had no games other than sonic, soul calibur and arcade ports. it was a failed abortion that's been propped up by metal jesus tier boomers for 20 years because of slick marketing and aesthetic. it's the definition of style over substance, and the market responded accordingly. fuck dreamcast and fuck your gay thread.

>>10388946
I’d say it is in handheld mode at least, especially given the age of the Tegra-based hardware. Switch games generally look pretty good on the OLED model.

GTA3 is only the start. As the generation carried forward the issues would just compound. The Dreamcast would utterly shit itself trying to run Final Fantasy XII. Not that FFXII was multiplatform anyway but it would be one example of something the DC would not be able to keep up with. And that would be the problem. Imagine something like the Wii, where direct ports from other consoles aren't possible, but without the massive install base to justify dedicated versions. Publishers would steadily abandon the platform because it wouldn't be worth it.

>>10388949
This isn't a "what if" though. It's a hardware capability analysis.

>>10388952
the switch can't run games from 2015 at more than 640p, on extra low settings, and at 30fps. it's a joke

>>10388961
>This isn't a "what if" though
>"Assuming the Dreamcast survived..."
stop.

>>10388963
It’s definitely a mixed bag. That said, I put a lot of time into the Switch ports of Dark Souls and Witcher III despite the visual downgrades.

>>10388949
Dreamcast load times were extremely fast and it had a ton of exclusives in its time. You're probably not even 20 years old and I have no idea why you're even on this board

>>10388615

Bullshit

https://tcrf.net/Prerelease:Burnout_Legends_(PlayStation_Portable)

In stark contrast to later versions of Legends, this build was near-identical to Burnout 3's console versions graphics-wise. It used console-quality car and track models as well as textures, and the environment lighting was also far higher-quality than the final builds of Legends. Some bits and pieces were below console-quality, but for the most part, this build was very much on-par with its PlayStation 2 counterpart.

Also Burnout Dominator

https://youtu.be/c2kZXshqy80?si=Ola_m6ArQkn6QR-7

Is the PSP more powefurll than the game cube?

All the games used the Renderware

>>10388961
This thread is mostly filled with rational people but you always get a few weirdos that vastly overestimate the Dreamcast’s capabilities.

>>10388970
>Dreamcast load times were extremely fast
get a load of this retard
>it had a ton of exclusives in its time
it has just over 600 games, only 200 more than the fucking N64. it couldn't even have a "ton" of exclusives if every game was an exclusive because the library is limited as fuck and the majority of its games are bottom of the barrel licensed shit and trash like BMX racing or ports of old fighting games. you are fucking kidding yourself.
>You're probably not even 20 years old and I have no idea why you're even on this board
i have 3 kids and i bought a Dreamcast in march of 2000. i played the shit out of Sonic Adventure, Rayman 2 and Jet Grind Radio and then it collected dust.

>>10388978
Load times were easily double the speed of the PS1.
Sonic Adventure, Dynamite Cop, Blue Stinger, Skies of Arcadia, SoulCalibur, Grandia 2, Jet Grind Radio, Code Veronica, Sword of Berserk, NFL2K, Crazy Taxi, MvC2, DoA2, Shenmue, Powerstone, Chu Chu Rocket, PSO. All DC exclusives during it's time. Had the best multiplats version of any games released between 98-01
Seems you're simply a moron with no taste

>>10389003
>Dynamite Cop
>Blue Stinger
>Code Veronica
>fucking NFL2K
you know you're reaching when you have to include a burgerball game in the list.
>Seems you're simply a moron with no taste
bro, your favorite console's most iconic game is literally called Semen. you have no right to call anyone else retarded.

Some of you are REALLY misremembering what Shenmue was actually like on Dreamcast. Lots of running through narrow streets and alleys, limited draw distance, frame rate stutters, load times, etc. It was absolutely nothing like GTA 3’s continuous open world.

>>10389017
Why would you even buy a Sega console if you don't like sports and arcade games? Seaman is a pseudo joke game that no one even remembers, or cares about besides novelty.
You are clearly underage

>>10389017
>sportsball

Don't be that guy, the 2K franchise was excellent and generally better than EA’s offerings.

>>10389027
>You are clearly underage
my kids are probably older than you. stop defaulting to easy insults and try to form a logical argument, you're acting like a woman. Dreamcast was a failure, such a failure that it sold fewer units than the Saturn, a console whose mascot was a transexual purple jester. think about that.

>>10389034
He’s right though. Why would you buy a Dreamcast if you weren’t into the types of games that Sega excels at? I’m assuming you’re in your early 40s, so you would’ve been old enough in 2000 to be knowledgeable about the Dreamcast’s library.

>>10389034
Logical arguments like Seaman being an iconic game and the load times being excruciatingly long? I'm calling you underage because you clearly weren't even born when the Dreamcast was on store shelves, much less played one or know the audience for it

>>10389038
>WHY WOULD YOU BUY THING
DC had a few good games (key word: few). when you got one in 99/00 and had SA or soul calibur, the future looked bright. then they gave up and the console was dead a year later. maybe if the DC had survived till 2005 and had hundreds of great games in spite of its shit hardware, i might be speaking differently of it. except that isn't what happened. it had a handful of decent games like all consoles do, and then it died a cuckold death. i'm not going to sit here and pretend it was some 10/10 console because it objectively wasn't.

>>10389041
>you're underage because you don't agree with me about my semen console
okay, you can go back to dilating your anus now you strange little man

>>10389054
you're really bad at keeping up the facade

>>10389046
You’re too old to still post like this, anon.

>>10389059
>>10389061
>STOP NOT LIKING MY SEMEN CONSOLE, YOU CAN'T CALL IT A SEMEN CONSOLE OR YOU'RE AUTOMATICALLY LE ZOOM ZOOM
sega cultists are deranged

>>10389083
I want to express strong dismay at your immature posting style for a guy in his 40s with kids. What country are you from?

>>10389097
let's be honest: you're mad because i rightfully called the dreamcast a piece of shit. you can't actually prove otherwise (because deep down, even you know it's a piece of shit), so your de facto reaction is to dive into a bucket of armchair intellectualism and pull out whatever you think will make you sound more "muhture". i don't need to be mature. i'm on fucking /vr/ and i'm going to make fun of your Semencast as much as i want to, and there's nothing you can do about it. you'll just have to live with the knowledge that a retired man with children can make fun of you on the internet and still be more successful than you in every conceivable way. tough nuts.

>>10389115
Kek, game over

>>10388968
Yes, if we ignore the second half of the fucking sentence then you're right.

You're the load your mom should have swallowed.

>>10389115
Mmhmm, and what country are you from?

>>10389125
>You're the load your mom should have swallowed.
>he says while being accused of liking the semen console
this probably wasn't the best retort.

>>10389128
>y-you're underage
>y-you're third world
6'2''
live in colorado
own my own house
3 kids
semencast a shit.
are you gonna cry about it?

>>10389138
Anon are you...?

>>10389143
jewish? no.

If the retardation can cease, I'm legit curious as to the specific aspects where the Dreamcast's hardware can't hold up. Storage space, sure. What about the CPU and GPU?

>>10389138
>6'2''
>live in colorado
>own my own house
>3 kids
Pathetic fanfiction.

>>10389160
>nobody can have what i don't have
the fact you think this is even some kind of outlandish pipe dream is telling. maybe if you didn't spend your youth masturbating to weird porn and play Semencast, you would've been able to achieve what i did with middling effort.

>>10389163
I don't believe you have 3 kids. And I don't believe you are 6'2" and in shape.

>>10388971
>Is the PSP more powefurll than the game cube?
maybe

>>10389138
>6'2''

More like 5'5

>own my own house

No you don't.

>3 kids

Lmao. Make up a better story.

>>10389159
This post >>10388871 pretty much covers it. The Dreamcast launched in Japan in 1998. The hardware was simply too dated to keep up with the main three sixth gen consoles.

>>10389160
>lives in Colorado
>refers to the NFL as "burgerball"

Completely insufferable.

The Gamecube couldn't handle Naomi 2 or Hikaru games. It took the AM2 team two goes to get Virtua Fighter 4 looking like the arcade on the PS2. XBOX was the only one out of the three that was on a different level.

>>10389256
Nah. Not a chance in hell the Dreamcast hardware could come even close to matching the best looking games on PS2 and GameCube. PS2, GC and Xbox were all on another level compared to the Dreamcast.

>>10389256
get a load of this bozo

>>10389260
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=oH8i-SOFMx0

>>10387557
>muh hardware/graphics
dc was already fairly excessive for jp devs, that's why they essentially disappeared in large numbers after the ps1 gen and why sega wanted out
too much need for budget and staff, and it's all for dumbed down gameplay that came with that gen onwards
adding anything past dc to this board was truly cancer, dc got a slight pass since it was more attached to arcade than the others, aka actual gameplay

>>10389287
Okay? That has nothing to do with the Dreamcast compared to the PS2.

>>10389301
This post isn’t even remotely close to being true.

>>10389307
might as well try to tell me smash is a fighting game
btw tell me when it's back at evo

>>10389316
The sixth gen was very Japanese oriented. I have no idea what you’re babbling about.

>>10388927
Alright, you won. I apologize, I was wrong.

>>10389221
The Dreamcast's Holly GPU did have some strengths over the PS2. Anti-aliasing, for example. I think it also did have better texturing capabilities. But the direction games went ended up playing right into the strengths of the PS2. Chiefly raw polygons, particle effects, etc. There's probably a little bit of a chicken and egg going on, where since the PS2 was so dominant game design tended to gravitate toward it's strengths. But that would have happened anyway since the topic is asking whether the Dreamcast could keep up, not what a fantasy land would look like if Dreamcast "won." A Dreamcast that survived would have to adapt to the games that were being made, not vice versa.

>>10389287
The original Naomi was mostly equivalent to a Dreamcast. The Naomi 2, on the other hand, was way beyond it.

>>10389325
Don’t apologize to that moron, you weren’t wrong. He’s inferring that the Dreamcast hardware would’ve been capable of running GTAIII exactly the same as the PS2, which is blatantly wrong.

>>10389303
We know PS2 couldn't perfectly handle Dreamcast x2. I'm not even sure Dreamcast 1.5 is a good comparison because the PS2 simply lacked hardware features that the original Dreamcast had.

>>10388494
Rayman 2 on ps2 is also the best looking version with massively improved visuals across the board. 480p too

>>10389338
What are you even trying to say here? The PS2 hardware was overall more capable, end of story.

>>10389335
I didn't! That fucker is probably samefagging.

>>10389319
>no idea
yea i can see that
arcade was already in my post
try to tell me arcade's sixth had as much dev presence as fifth and i'll just laugh at you

>>10389351
This thread is about consoles, not the arcade.

>>10389361
it's an example of dev
your first reply already reeked of desperation for bumps, continue on with graphics nonsense on your own

Dreamcast had more VRAM than the PS2. Games would look better or worse depending on your preference. Dreamcast games would generally be way lower poly but have crisper, higher res textures.

>>10388579
It could if the devs spent a bunch of time reworking alpha textures and transparencies, which most devs couldn't be fucked to do.
>>10388625
Virtua Fighter 4 is a weird case. PS2 is less powerful than Naomi 2 in every way, so what we got was a high-effort port with different effects and assets, a sort of Director's Cut with downgraded textures but everything else intact. Or at least too different to directly compare. That said there's no way Dreamcast could run VF4 without huge cutbacks, couldn't even run full-fat Sega Model 3 titles which is a bit of a letdown.

>>10388751
> Comparing low-effort PS2 port to an excellent Dreamcast port
No, GTA3 would definitely not run as-is on Dreamcast without an extreme reduction in draw distance or poly count.

>SEGA fats are so delusional that they think the DC could actually run shit like RE4 or Halo

>>10389503
To be fair to the Dreamcast, the Model 3 was some NASA tier shit when it came out in 1996. The Dreamcast was a consumer grade home console that came out only two years later. It's no surprise it couldn't handle an arcade perfect port.

>>10389328
Did any game actually end up using anti-aliasing? That feature sounds nice but may have been too expensive to render. Another strength of the Dreamcast is that it gets perfect transparencies basically for free, something that no other hardware to this day can do without very performance-intensive operations.

But that's not enough to make the Dreamcast win. In order to win the console wars, the Dreamcast would've needed to have specs on par with the Naomi 2, easily doubling the price of the Dreamcast and possibly even wouldn't be possible until 1999 or 2000.

>>10389637
Yeah, my understanding has always been that the Dreamcast was essentially the NAOMI chipset with less RAM. Also consider that it launched at only $200 in the U.S.

>>10387557
Wasn't the Xbox the Dreamcast's unofficial successor?

>>10389513
>>10389603
It’s astounding to me that there are anons on this board that truly seem to believe the Dreamcast could’ve easily handled Vice City or San Andreas and that the experience would have been exactly the same as on PS2.

>>10389752
Correct, it’s the closest thing to a Dreamcast 2 except it used an Nvidia GPU.

>>10389159
The CPU was a pair of Hitachi SH-4s clocked at 200MHz each. Assuming devs got over their reluctance to properly learn multi-processing, there were other problems compared to the PS2's 300MHz MIPS. SH-4 compilers weren't as mature as MIPS, unless you were willing to use assembly, power would get left on the table. Sad reality. I bet today with clang and llvm you could achieve great things, but in '00 you were stuck with the GCC you were given.
The PS2 had a pair of outrageously fast vector stream processors, the DC had to make do with proto-SIMD on-CPU matrix instructions for crunching geometry data. Not every PS2 game made full use of the vector units, many devs were lazy and avoided it outside of sony provided libraries and so the DC beats low grade PS2 games but falls short of the highest tier.
Graphics is complicated. The PS2 had an unusual graphics chip that was so outrageously fast at rendering textured+lit triangles that it turned common thought on its head. Devs at the time were used to spending CPU resources to pre-sort and discard non-visible polygons to save rendering time. But the PS2 was so fast it was considered a waste of the CPU to do so. The DC used deferred tile rendering which was amazing at the time and prevented overdraw slowdown and avoided transparency sorting but it wasn't enough compared to the PS2's raw brute force.
Where the DC had an advantage though was in VRAM where it was capable of using system RAM as a texture source. This was HUGELY beneficial in games where they needed large quantities of textures but not necessarily high performance. The PS2 required you shuffle data into and out of VRAM frequently and this is why lots of early PS2 games have crap textures compared to DC. However this wasn't to last because people realised that you could DMA data into VRAM in a Just-in-Time fashion which negated the DC's advantage.

>>10389781
I thought the Dreamcast only used a single SH-4

>>10387557
I'm not sure how well multi-platform games could work the Dreamcast considering how few buttons it had in comparison. Even Twin Snakes had to do button combos to recreate start/select since the GameCube had 4 fewer buttons than the DualShock. The Dreamcast has 1 less than that. DualShock: 12 buttons. GameCube: 8. Dreamcast: 7. Sega and anyone developing for the Dreamcast would likely have to come up with a lot more original titles for it.

>>10389797
according to wikipedia, you're right. I was certain it had a pair. Oh well, take what I said about it being underpowered and double it then.

>>10389781
The PS2's VRAM is retardedly fast. Its bandwidth is 48GB/s. For reference, Nvidia's top tier card in 2005, the 7800 GTX, had a VRAM bandwidth of 38GB/s. The OG Xbox is 6.4GB/s. Because it's retardedly fast, it can do some retarded shit that it shouldn't have been able to do. Like multitexturing, it can't do multitexturing (as in a single pass). But it's so fast you can just swap out a texture for another one and draw again. And three more times if you want without incurring any performance hit.
The Dreamcast can't do multitexturing for real, and it's not fast enough for fake multitexturing.

>>10389821
I will never understand why they took C/Z off the controller. It's obvious it's a Saturn 3D pad redesigned, the arcade stick mapping the extra buttons to C/Z and not the analog suggests these were supported from the word go and not some extra functionality added in a later library. I can understand not having a second analog stick, even in '98 people weren't convinced it served any real purpose and the Japanese were the last to adopt twin-stick gameplay after the west decided it was the final solution to camera problems.

>>10389853
Truly baffling given how arcade-heavy the Dreamcast library is. Not only that, but they replaced the world renowned Sega d-pad.

>>10389846
I think it's safe to say that it doesn't matter what you bring up as a benefit on the DC, the PS2 had an answer for it, even if it required a bit more out-of-the-box thinking.
Could the DC have held on? Yes. Because not all PS2 devs were geniuses pushing the hardware to its limits. Would it have had MGS3, FFXII, Vice City? No. The PS2 was always going to win in outliers.

>>10389853
Apocryphal, but I remember someone saying that Sega dropped C/Z to force games to be more simple. I guess the same rationale behind the Game Boy Advance. Though in hindsight 6 buttons are clearly not enough.

>>10389674
Dreamcast games do look like they have less aliasing than PS2 games in general, so there's that.

>>10389674
Nobody is suggesting the Dreamcast would "win." The question is whether or not it could have survived the whole generation without getting absolutely blown out.

>>10388782
>>Not that the Dreamcast could’ve handled them regardless.
>GTA 3 was originally made for the Dreamcast. They had a working prototype game. But then Sega went bankrupt and shut down Dreamcast. So they switched releases to PS2 last minute

I would assume that GTAIII was planned to be a multi-platform release. I don;t see what benifit Rockstar would have had by making it a DC exclusive, especially considering that the series gained popularity on the PS1 hardware... and PC. Rockstar were committed to making DC games, as they ported GTA2, and had Wild Metal running on WindowsCE, and they had an Austin Powers kart racer planned. GTAIII was developed on Renderware, and there are a few early Renderware games on the Dreamcast, with Trickstyle being the first one. Stunt GP is also running on Criterion's old Renderware engine:

https://youtu.be/ng4a2AmDnOk?t=41

I have a feeling that they could have ported GTAIII to renderware using a DC compatible game engine. But I also think that they would have had to make some compromises to the game itself to get it to run. I don;t think it would be a 100% impossible port. Just one crushed down to run on DC hardware. San Andrea's on the other hand, probably could have not been possible.. as San Andrea's was a later PS2 release that really pushed the renderware engine much hardwaer than any GTA game that came before it.

>>10389885
The answer is a definite 'no'. History has shown that the console market can’t support three 'main' consoles, especially once a mega corporation like MS entered the ring. As we all know, Nintendo was forced to pivot off and do their own separate thing that doesn’t directly compete against PlayStation and Xbox.

>>10389513
>No, GTA3 would definitely not run as-is on Dreamcast without an extreme reduction in draw distance or poly count.
The poly count for sure but I don't see why draw distance would be an issue. The real hit to poly count would be for character models and objects. Things like buildings and terrain are comparatively cheap. And things in the distance may actually look better on Dreamcast because of the higher quality textures thanks to the higher VRAM.

>>10389863
This is because Nintendo's patent on the cross shaped d-pad had either already expired or was just about to, freeing Sega up to ape the design they had wanted from the start.

>>10389913
Bizarre choice.

>>10389919
Dude, it's Sega.

>>10389886
>there are a few early Renderware games on the Dreamcast, with Trickstyle being the first one. Stunt GP is also running on Criterion's old Renderware engine:

> Trickstyle
> Dave Mirra Freestyle BMX
> Deep Fighter
> Stunt GP
> Conflict Zone

These are all of the games that I could find that use different builds of Renderware for the DC. Rayman 2 apparently uses Renderware for some versions of the game too, but I am not sure if the DC port uses the Renderware engine.

>>10389885
I mean the answer to that depends on your definition of hanging around, and also when the generation ended to see how long it would need to.
The GameCube came out in 2001, and was effectively dead by the end of 2004.
Xbox was also 2001 and the 360 came out in 2005.
At best the Dreamcast would have been in the weird zombified state the Genesis was in America around 96 and 97 where it was still getting games that sold surprisingly well, but everyone knew it wasn't actually contending with the PS1 or N64

>>10389984
>weird zombified state the Genesis was in America around 96 and 97
Probably best the DC was killed at its peak rather than suffer the indignity of "Virtua Fighter 2" style demakes. Kind of like how the Wii got "ports" of 360 games like Dead Rising and CoD that just made the Wii look shittier than it was.

>>10388392
I played Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament just fine using the face buttons for movement and the joystick for aiming. It's basically the same control scheme that Turok used on N64.

>>10388571
Who cares? The PS2 version of Unreal Tournament is way better than the Dreamcast version, which is missing a bunch of lighting effects, reflections and water physics, whilst also running like complete dog shit with frequent dips under 20fps. That's despite the fact that the PS2 port came out six months earlier too.

>>10389884
This might be down to mipmapping, which iirc the Dreamcast was better at when the PS2 was still in early adoption.

>>10389841
NAOMI 2 has the dual-CPU setup you're thinking of.

>>10388615

Name of game?

>>10390229
Chronicles of Riddick. It's in the filename.

>>10389901
I can imagine that, with enough effort, a Spyro-like LoD system could be implemented for terrain to keep a high viewing distance. There's nothing to be done about pedestrians and vehicles though. They'd have to be cut back no matter what, and that's just to get the game running at a flat 20 FPS. GTA3 already chugged on PS2, capping at 30 but often dropping to 20 with lows around 15.

A lot of work would need to be done for Dreamcast and most studios didn't budget for great porting jobs. Multiplats/ports have always been tricky to develop, and this results in missing effects and graphical glitches for many titles. The Xbox and Gamecube have the power and feature set to run every Dreamcast port flawlessly, but developers weren't given the time or budget to make it happen in most cases. As a result, games tend to look best on the platforms they were developed for first.

>>10389346
>Rayman 2 on ps2 is also the best looking version with massively improved visuals across the board.
Not really. They're slightly improved at best, and some even say it's a downgrade. It's no Rayman 3.
>480p too
No, it's actually 480i. Dreamcast version runs in 480p when connected through VGA on the other hand.

>>10389984
One thing worth considering is that there was a fuckton of PS2 games that really didn't push the hardware like AT ALL. They weren't AAA by any stretch of the imagination but the Dreamcast could have gotten all of those compilations like Mega Man Anniversary, all those Capcom and SNK collections, and the constant stream of weebshit RPGs from NIS and Vanillaware, all without any downgrades whatsoever. Add in all the yearly sports titles and other games that would have only incidental differences like Tony Hawk and Timesplitters, and you'd have a decent amount of games in between any exclusives. And of course under these circumstances all Sega games would be Dreamcast exclusives, too. Panzer Dragoon Orta would be a Dreamcast game. It'd look real fucking different from the Xbox but it would definitely exist.

>>10388927
>Before you reply again you need to apologize to everyone in this thread when you started this whole nonsense debate about Dreamcast discs not being good enough storage for GTA.
Fair point. I apologize of behalf of all the anons who doubted the Dreamcast GD-ROM. It definitely can hold the games. You were right.

>>10389513
>>10389503
>which most devs couldn't be fucked to do.
Couldn't be bothered doing or couldn't do? You 100% believe dreamcast couldn't run gta3 despite the game being designed for that system yet you 100% know ps2 could flawlessly play shenmue despite its creator stating otherwise.
>>10390109
>w-who cares
>The PS2 version of Unreal Tournament is way better than the Dreamcast version, which is missing a bunch of lighting effects, reflections and water physics, whilst also running like complete dog shit with frequent dips under 20fps. That's despite the fact that the PS2 port came out six months earlier too.
I doubt you've even played dc quake 3. Dc ut once again looks better overall, has better stock pad controls, online play, more levels and the reason dc frame rate dips is because it has more shit going on as the ps2 limited the amount of bots you can fight.

You can tell it's just one anon who is samefagging and pretending to hate the the Dreamcast. Whenever he's not online it gets quiet because he can't pretend to be multiple people. This anon only logs on later in the evening and early mornings. The rest of the time the thread is quiet.

>>10390596
The Dreamcast hardware seems to have been weirdly adept at handling PC FPS ports. Would’ve been cool if the planned Half-Life port had actually come out.

>>10390596
>You 100% believe dreamcast couldn't run gta3 despite the game being designed for that system yet you 100% know ps2 could flawlessly play shenmue despite its creator stating otherwise.

NTA but a Dreamcast version of GTAIII would absolutely not be the same as the finished PS2 product. After transitioning development over to PS2, Rockstar took advantage of the extra hardware power and benefits of DVD. If I’m remembering correctly, the radio stations in the game used DVD streaming capabilities. A Dreamcast GD-ROM wouldn’t have been able to do that. In theory the Dreamcast could have run a version of the game, but it definitely wouldn’t have been 1:1 with the PS2/Xbox releases.

>>10390796
>NTA
You ARE the same anon. You even use the same writing style. Just admit it. Stop with this cringe act. The IP counter didn't even go up. So you aren't new.

>>10390825
Yeah no duh, I’ve been posting in this thread multiple times, dummy. But I’m not the one you just replied to. Either way, I’m right. You’re acting like GTAIII for Dreamcast was like 90% finished or something. Obviously that’s not the case and the game was reworked when they moved over to PS2. Use some common sense here.

>>10390796

It would be close enough. Just like Resident Evil 4 on the Gamecube VS the PS2 version.

>>10390832
Point is it would be a pretty significant downgrade, especially in the poly count department which is what the PS2 really excelled at.

>>10387557
when are you retards going to realize that every console has slight differences and advantages? "DUDE THIS GAME COULDN'T RUN ON PS2 BRO, THERE WOULD BE A MISSING SHADER ON THE PROTAG'S EXPOSED ANUS". that's how you sound. could the DC run GTA as it was on PS2? absolutely not. then again, PS2 couldn't run Shenmue "as it was" on DC, because both games were designed for different architecture, utilizing each consoles' strengths and various on-board effects. this is why comparing ports, theoretical or otherwise, is retarded. the fucking Neo Geo AES could arguably perform some 2D operations better than 5th gen consoles like the PS1, and it was a generation older -- but you wouldn't say it was more powerful than the PS1, that would be stupid as fuck. likewise, it's pretty clear that the PS2 is more powerful than the DC. does it support every effect that the DC does? no. is it powerful enough to brute force all of the effects that the DC can display? probably not. that doesn't matter though. the reality is that the PS2 is 2 years newer and can simply push more polys and perform faster operations. there's no getting around this. you can cherrypick some game and say "DC has the better looking version", but it has no game that stands on its own against the best looking PS2 games that were tailored to PS2 hardware. DC could never run something like SotC or GoW2; shit, i don't think it could even run some of the better looking early multiplats like Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance or TimeSplitters 2. the PS2 is the more powerful console, end of story.

>>10390796
> If I’m remembering correctly, the radio stations in the game used DVD streaming capabilities.
You aren't "remembering" correctly. You are secretly trying to look up info on GTA III on Google, and copy pasting factoids from Wikipedia and other game sites. Earlier in the thread, you even shamelessly used the same exact sentences and pictures found on one of the top results when Googling info on GTA III. At least have the decency to stop pretending.


The fact of the matter is that the Dreamcast is a perfectly respectable machine for that Generation of consoles and it that could run GTAIII. There are many ways to optimize and code a game to get it to run on specific hardware. There isn't some massive technology gap between Dreamcast VS Gamecube VS PS2. They are all roughly in the same ballpark.

Hell, the PC PORT beats the shit out of all of them in terms of graphics, and that version used 2 cd-roms. No DVD needed. So I have no idea why you obsess over the PS2 version like it's some gold standard. It got shat on by the PC version if you really want to discuss which version "looked the best". Pretty disappointing for a console supposedly using ground breaking 'DVD technology' or whatever other buzz words you want to copy from Google.

>>10390856
Anon, the Dreamcast was not capable of running the same version of the game, end of story. I’m sure Sega appreciates your undying loyalty.

>>10390856
>There isn't some massive technology gap between Dreamcast VS Gamecube VS PS2. They are all roughly in the same ballpark.

Yes there is and no they weren’t. The PS2 was able to handle a port of RE4 because it was in the same ballpark. The aging Dreamcast hardware was not.

>>10390840
I love how this loser post starts out pretending to be unbiased and saying all hardware has strengths and weaknesses. Then goes off on a rant saying PS2 is the best.

Bravo anon. You really had us going there. Then you messed up the ending

>>10390860
>running the same version of the game
>same version

What at you even rambling about? No version of a game across consoles is the "same version" of the game. Every version is tailored to the hardware and strengths of the console. A hypothetical GTA 3 on Dreamcast would look different than a hypothetical GTA 3 for Gamecube than the official GTA 3 version PS2. And ALL of them would suck compared to the PC version could be pushed to run higher graphics and use mods and updates. Your post is meaningless.

>>10390892
I just wanted to reinforce to you that a hypothetical Dreamcast version would be a downgrade in every possible way. The main three sixth gen consoles had significantly more graphical and processing muscle because it was newer hardware by a good two years.

>>10390862
Gamecube RE4 owns ps2 version dude

>>10390898
I agree, but the PS2 was still able to handle a port, albeit with some technical downgrades. The Dreamcast hardware wouldn’t have even come close.

>>10390865
>goes off on a rant saying PS2 is the best
learn to read.

>>10388786
>>10388775
dead or alive 2 looks a lot better on PS2, joe redifer made these comparisons 20 years ago and they were bad then, as they are bad now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2T4yokJUbs

>>10390294
Nope, it's 480p and it's vastly improved. Captured off real hardware.

>>10390892
>ALL of them would suck compared to the PC version could be pushed to run higher graphics and use mods and updates.
Thats not always the case.
>>10390894
>The main three sixth gen consoles had significantly more graphical and processing muscle because it was newer hardware by a good two years.
All naomi board games I can think of look and play worse on PS2, GC and Xbox. Often the extra abilities PS2 and Xbox brought to the table were a hinderance.

>>10390934
>All naomi board games I can think of look and play worse on PS2, GC and Xbox. Often the extra abilities PS2 and Xbox brought to the table were a hinderance.

Right, but those are first party Sega games designed from the ground up for their hardware. GTAIII for Dreamcast never got past the prototype phase before being reworked for the PS2 hardware.

>>10390914
>dead or alive 2 looks a lot better on PS2

>>10390948
>Anonymous 11/07/23(Tue)23:28:43 No.10390948dvvsps2.jpg (435 KB, 2513x1109)File: dvvsps2.jpg (435 KB, 2513x1109) imgur google yandex iqdb wait435 KB JPG>>10390914(You)
>>dead or alive 2 looks a lot better on PS2
yep.

>>10390951
Tell me what about the PS2 image >>10390948
>yep

>>10390941
Not all were sega games like Dead or Alive 2.

>>10390914
Wasn't DOA2 redone for PS2? Like not ported but actually got new textures and shit? It's not just PS2 doing a DC game better than the DC did.

>>10390969
In DoA 2’s case, I’d chalk it up more to it being a lazy port. Obviously the Dreamcast hardware excelled at arcade games as well.

https://youtu.be/-fFp7XEe7sc?si=6amwKVnCBy3FLQz6

Going through all the Gamecube ports of Dreamcast games they're generally pretty good. I can't imagine the the Dreamcast would fare nearly as well in the reverse.

>>10390991
This is what it boils down to. Obviously the original hardware that the games were developed for is going to be best, but the newer consoles were able to mostly brute force it.

>>10390974
You might be thinking of Dead or Alive Ultimate for Xbox.

Looks like that one anon finally woke up now. He's samefagging and replying to himself about how Dreamcast sucks. Thread was so much better without this anon's hate boner for Dreamcast.

>>10387557
Sega was gonna have to release their successor by '02 if they wanted to stay relevant. The PS2 barely cut it compared to the cube and box.

>>10391009
No one has said it sucks. What are you talking about?

>>10391009
He seems to be a ps2 fanboy for sure.

>>10391010
This. They put themselves in a situation similar to the Wii U where it quickly fell behind once the newer, more powerful consoles came out.

Dreamcast would probably do okay with something like Jak II, which was a pretty big PS2 release. The areas are judiciously segmented to aid in loading anyway. You might have to reduce the number of people and vehicles in the city but considering the PSP did an adequate job with Daxter I don't think it'd be an absurd ask for the Dreamcast to pull it off. I'm just having a hard time imagining how the Dreamcast would even manage to get such a game. Those spectacle games were rarely multiplatform. And no third party is going to pick Dreamcast of all systems to be exclusive to. I suppose if Sega made Yakuza for it, that'd be the DC's big game.

>>10391045
Shenmue II and F355 Challenge were most likely the upper limits of what the hardware was capable of. There was no hidden untapped power that would magically make the Dreamcast competitive with the newer consoles.

>>10387557
>What if Sega blah blah blah thread #9,861
This should be a bannable offense. Sega is kill just move on and accept it

>>10391082
No, anon. The Dreamcast is actually the most powerful console ever made and could’ve run Crysis no problem. Clearly those big meanies at Sony conspired against us.

>>10387557
the price advantage would have played in favour of the dreamcast. most ps2/gcn games can probably run on dc with little tweaking after all. it's the lack of killer app to make me doubt a successful long run but you shouldnt understimate poorfags' sales. remember the genesis, psx and later ps2 too.

>>10391369
Gamecube opened $100 lower than the PS2 and Xbox, and it had the Nintendo brand name as well.

>>10391472
And it was more powerful

>>10390894
No one cares about your hypothetical goal posts. The PC version is the best looking version. Does that make me not want to play the PS2 version? No not really.

Stop talking nonsense.

>>10391474
but a very limited library in the beginning. meanwhile the dreamcast could have offered multi-platforms games (tweaked) plus a decent amount of vidya for a budget price.

>>10391510
PS2 SA is still the best version.

I think most of you are forgetting that Dreamcast only died because Sega was in a very bad financial position after the abyssmal failures of 32x and Saturn. The company was drained financially.

Dreamcast actually sold moderately well. I believe 9 million units after 15 months. If sales continued to hold its possible it could have ended up around 30 million total consoles sold after 4 years. A very good sales number all things considered.

Those Dreamcast sales would have been great only a generation beforehand. 30 million would be a solid customer base. But Sega literally just ran out of money. They didn't even have enough money to cover daily operations anymore. Dream didn't fail Sega. Sega failed the Dreamcast.

>>10390796
>the radio stations in the game used DVD streaming capabilities
You will immediately cease and not continue to access the site if you are under the age of 18.

>>10391517
PC version is always the best anon. It can get higher graphics settings than what PS2 can do.

>>10391010
Good luck getting back into the console market after four years of nothing besides Sega Saturn in Japan

>>10391563
They def picked too many wrong paths to survive. A lot of abusing the consumer base and playing hardball about compromising on that. Xbox one style, the whole we need it to phone home because fuck you buy a 360, but more in terms of playstation not having games. I dont have the full history of 32x but it really seems like it was an add-on more than a legit new console, a ps4pro upgrade, and it just so happened that there were only 20 32x games or 20 slightly interesting games.

>>10391356
So whats in the safe to complete this meme? I guess tony hawk or some multiplat?

>>10391613
>Good luck getting back into the console market after four years of nothing besides Sega Saturn in Japan
>>10391010
>Sega was gonna have to release their successor by '02 if they wanted to stay relevant. The PS2 barely cut it compared to the cube and box.

Sega didn't have to release an entirely new console. Sega could have just done a revision of the hardware. Like in modern times with Xbox One VS "Xbox One X" (upgraded Xbox that can play 4K games).

Since Dreamcast is closely related to Naomi in terms of hardware. Sega could just have scales down the Naomi 2 arcade hardware, and release a new Dreamcast console revision. Have called "Dreamcast HD" or 'Dreamcast 2' or something like that. Release it in 2005 after a solid 5 years of original Dreamcast. Maybe Sega could have partnered with Toshiba to use HD-DVD discs and offset costs. Toshiba could pay for some of the cost of the Dreamcast.

Have Dreamcast HD be able to play all old Dreamcast games, but also have enough horsepower to play newer titles. Naomi 2 hardware was already pretty affordable for arcade hardware, so making a console version wouldn't break Sega Financially. Toshiba backing them up saves even more money....and probably piss off Sony who is trying to use PS3 to push Blu ray discs.


And to be quite frank, that's what Sega should have been doing. Making affordable console versions of Arcade hardware. That's what they did with Sega Genesis (which was a downscaled Arcade System 16). Sega 32x and Saturn were huge miss-steps. The Saturn SHOULD have been a downscaled Arcade Model 2 board. But Sega had this weird "business relationship" with Hitachi at that time, and made some odd choices to push Hitachi chips.
Thankfully Sega went back to Naomi for the Dreamcast.

A Sega Dreamcast HD using Toshiba HD-DVD discs VS Sony PS3 using Blu Ray...would have been a very interesting console war. 2 companies working together to fight the Mega giant Sony.

Nintendo would...be doing its own thing w/ Wii

>>10388754
>Halo is basically the reason why we're using twin sticks for shooters today
LMAO It was nothing to do with Halo especially, it was simply the direction that the industry naturally went.
As you say a few games on PSX and Timesplitters, plus Red Faction, Oni, Half Life, Unreal Tournament, Quake III Revolution, Soldier of Fortune, X-Squad, and probably more I either haven't played or I'm forgetting.

>>10391681
Are there even animus hd-dvd out there wtf duyu want to sell me?

>>10391586
I’m 40 lol. I was just vaguely recalling how it worked. Explain it to me then.

>>10391510
Okay, well a Dreamcast port of GTA3 would be far and away the worst version of the game, so why would you even want it in the first place?

>>10391681
Kek Sega was in absolutely no position to pull any of this off and Dreamcast games would’ve looked downright terrible in comparison to later gen PS2/GC/Xbox titles from 2004/2005.

>>10391563
The problem was the Dreamcast was propped up almost entirely by the North American market. It flopped in every other major territory.

>>10391515
>tweaked

GameCube often received gimped multiplats because of the mini DVD format. Dreamcast versions would be even worse, both graphically and content-wise. I’m not sure you’d want that unless it’s all you could afford.

>>10391963
>Explain it to me then
It's pretty simple:
>child says stupid thing
>child gets called a zoomie
>child larps as grownup
>child is mocked more
--->You are here

>>10392037
Again, I’m 40 and I’m not sure how the radio stations in the game worked exactly and clearly you don’t either. Regardless, GTA3 on Dreamcast would barely even have radio stations and that’s in addition to and overall downgrade in environmental detail and low poly character models because in reality the Dreamcast was more of a 5.5 gen console rather than truly sixth gen.

>>10392003
Thps looks better on dreamcast than any other system.

>>10387557
first look at the specs,they are better then what the ps2 offered.
second it survived with official games being released until 2009.

>>10392060
In comparison to the fifth gen consoles, yes. But we’re talking sixth gen.

>>10392062
Definitely not. The PS2 was significantly more powerful because it was newer hardware. The Dreamcast wasn’t made of magic, it was basically a NAOMI arcade board in a console. It was rapidly outpaced by the newer sixth gen consoles.

>>10392051
Anon...GTA 3 wasn't exactly a graphical masterpiece. The polygon count wasn't high. What made it interesting was that it was a sandbox simulator, and it was rated R. That's why everyone loved it. Hijack cars, shoot people, run from the police, etc. It was fun just to mess around in the game. The graphics weren't that great. Dreamcast can play the game. The developers even made the game originally for the Dreamcast.

>>10392068
The polygon count was a lot higher than the Dreamcast would’ve been capable of. You are vastly overestimating its power.

>>10392073
>polygon count was too high for dc
>game was originally made FOR dreamcast

>>10392075
It never got past the prototype phase on Dreamcast before development was moved to PS2 which allowed Rockstar to take advantage of the more powerful hardware. The game would’ve been a lot more simplistic on the inferior Dreamcast hardware.

>>10392068
>>10392075
>they made a proof of concept build on the dreamcast therefore it could run the full final game ok?
Sure, and the PS1 could run Metal Gear Solid 2.

>>10388409
>Playing a 2000's game with office equipment

>>10392063
So am I. It looks better than Xbox thps2.

>>10392096
Maybe, but later entries like THPS3 and beyond definitely would’ve been worst on Dreamcast.

>>10392083
>inferior Dreamcast hardware.
There's a bunch of examples in this thread of dreamcast out performing gc, Xbox and ps2. Why you all look the other way is beyond me.
>>10392090
Half life was a more demanding game and that was almost released on dreamcast.

>>10392109
>Half Life
>more demanding than GTA3 or MGS2
Maybe in the same dreamland where the Dreamcast is more powerful.

>>10392096
No, xbox looks much better

>>10392109
No, there are maybe five examples, all of which are from very early on. After 2002 or so, the sixth gen consoles completely smoked the Dreamcast.

>>10392124
That's not fair. The Dreamcast development stopped in 2001. Devs only got 18 months to work with the Dreamcast. They didn't have the time to create all the little tricks and optimization techniques like they did for the other Gen 6 consoles which were out for 4 to 5 years.

>>10392142
That’s true, but the Dreamcast hardware was still older and less powerful because Sega rushed it out in Japan in fall of 1998.

>>10392115
Half life blue shift has more demanding system requirements than gta3 3 for pc.

>>10392164
There is no universe where the Dreamcast could have run a version of GTA3 without making a ton of concessions. I love the Dreamcast but I’m also being realistic.

>>10392172
Did you have issues playing ps2 gta when Xbox and pc versions existed? I didn't.

>>10392190
You seem to be thinking that it would’ve been like RE4 on PS2 compared to GameCube. In reality it would’ve been more like playing Call of Duty on Wii compared to PS3/360.

>>10392051
>Again, I'm larping and don't know anything, least of all how ridiculous my grade school antics make me look
>Regardless, I'm going to continue to bullshit and cope
>The power of autism compels me

>>10392164
If you get that conclusion from system requirements sheets, you are beyond retarded. A GeForce 256 can pull Half Life at 1024x768 60FPS. It won't even hit 30 for GTA 3 at that resolution.

>>10392068
Sure GTA3’s character models are a little crude looking, but the complexity of the open world would have to be scaled way back for the Dreamcast to run it at a playable framerate. Fewer cars on the roads, fewer NPCs on the streets, less detailed environments, etc.

>>10389752
>Wasn't the Xbox the Dreamcast's unofficial successor?

Conceptually, yes, as Microsoft studied the Dreamcast when developing their own console. But the hardware is not related. The Xbox was a beast though, when it came out in 2001. Especially with that custom GeForce 3 that veered closer to being a GeForce 4, the CPU was closer to being like a mobile Intel CPU. Having 64MB of unified RAM also helped a lot. The Dreamcast uses a Videologic GPU that is comparable to the Videologic Neon 250 in many ways, which was a desktop GPU that bombed when it was released. It had issues with DirectX performance. I also think that Windows CE compatibility is kinda like the Xbox's runtime environment, which is built around DirectX components. I felt that Windows CE was a great idea on the DC as it offered a secondary development environment built around Windows, which lead to a lot of Windows to Windows CE ports and was used by some 'indy' devs back then. But performance was worse than running on the Sega libraries, maybe due to the lack of system RAM. Microsoft also expanded on the SegaNet ideas with online, including an 8GB hardware was also a bit deal for the Xbox. Sega did support the Xbox, but they also gave pretty equal support to the GameCube, and released the most games on the PS2 overall.

Whatever happened to that Planet Harriers port that was supposed to go to the Gamescube? It should have been fairly trivial to do.

>>10388928
The game ran at like 15fps max on the PS2, lmao.

>>10392235
>Sure GTA3’s character models are a little crude looking, but the complexity of the open world would have to be scaled way back for the Dreamcast to run it at a playable framerate. Fewer cars on the roads, fewer NPCs on the streets, less detailed environments, etc.

Anon look at Crazy Taxi 2 gameplay. Dreamcast can handle open world environments, cars, and people on the road. Gta 3 could run on Dreamcast with some tweaks and optimization.

>>10392379
Crazy Taxi 2 isn’t even remotely comparable to GTA’s sandbox world.

>>10392109
>There's a bunch of examples in this thread of dreamcast out performing gc, Xbox and ps2. Why you all look the other way is beyond me.
Not for the types of games that became most popular though. The Dreamcast was in a sense the technological peak of the 90s era of game design. 3D fighting games arguably peaked at Soul Calibur. And while it'd have been worse than the arcade the Dreamcast could have done a respectable Virtua Fighter 4. But the PS2 era brought on an entirely different type of game. The Dreamcast was built in the style of a sooper dooper N64 and PS1. It wasn't equipped for something like God of War or GTA San Andreas. Or even something like Elder Scrolls III Morrowind.

Asking the Dreamcast to hold it's own in that environment is asking it to punch way above it's weight class. It could probably do it to some degree but the sacrifices would be noticeable and significant. It's like the SNES port of Doom. Yes, it exists. Yes, it's impressive considering the console that it's running on. But nobody would choose to play that version if given an option.

>>10392172
Honestly a Dreamcast GTA3 that looked like Crazy Taxi is something I could get behind.

>>10392404
Since it exists on gba and psx Doom is just a pimped 16 bit Doom and not werking on ps2 it's clear winner on nintondo

>>10387557
some games may have looked a bit worse because it was weaker but i think it could have competed fine if it had a dual analog controller, the use of cds for games might have been a problem though

>>10392406
The Wii port of Dead Rising is probably a pretty close analog to what GTA3 would be like on Dreamcast.

>>10392396
>Crazy Taxi 2 isn’t even remotely comparable to GTA’s sandbox world
Crazy Taxi 2 looks very similar to early Alpha and Beta builds of GTA 3. Which means Dreamcast could run GTA 3 with some tweaks and optimization.

>>10392404
>The Dreamcast was built in the style of a sooper dooper N64 and PS1. It wasn't equipped for something like God of War or GTA San Andreas. Or even something like Elder Scrolls III Morrowind.
You keep saying this but don't even realize the PS2 was gimped compared to the Xbox or PC. Heck even some. Gamecube games look better than PS2.

The reason why PS2 had so many games was because of huge install base of 150 million+ users. Developers didn't care if you made your game for stronger hardware on Xbox or PC. You were GOING to make a PS2 version whether your liked it or not. Executives wanted money. PS2 was a money printer.

>>10392497
It doesn’t mean that at all.

>>10392507
I'm using the PS2 as a baseline specifically because it was weaker than the Gamecube and Xbox in many or most ways so it defines the floor of the generation.

>>10392507
The PS2 had a weird architecture but the emotion engine GPU was still well beyond what the Dreamcast was capable of.

>>10387557
Well, if it could run gta3 there should not be a problem

>>10388494
>clockspeeds
literally fucking irrelevant, none of the 6th gen consoles used the same architecture. DC was some literally-who Hitachislop ISA designed for industrial control systems, PS2 was more MIPS, GC was based PowerPC, and Xbox was x86 (variant of the Pentium III's microarchitecture).

The DC was considerably less powerful than the other 6th gen consoles. Hell, the Xbox was still slightly more powerful than the Wii if you look at the FLOPs it could push.

Dreamcast is actually a good design better than most, but being released earlier was hueg back then, tech was exploding on a yearly basis

>>10392616
>Hitachislop

top kek

>>10392629
https://youtu.be/_OdUbP361P8?si=GqS6mqU7DMPBoWAi

>>10388547
RAM was very expensive in 1998. Just looking around, this 32 MB stick of SDRAM (4Mx64) would have retailed for about $33. Which doesn't seem like a lot but then you have to consider that the Dreamcast retailed at $199.

The RAM budget for the console was almost certainly under $20 altogether to meet their margins.

>>10392697
That stick also included a (small) circuit board, the cost of soldering the RAM chips onto the board, and profit margin for the manufacturer after that.

>>10392227
We're talking about blue shift here try to keep up.
>>10392404
>But nobody would choose to play that version if given an option.
If it was released before the competition I certainly would.

>>10392823
>If it was released before the competition I certainly would.
It wouldn't be. Look at what happened to the Wii. It kept getting shittier versions of games after the "real" version on PS3 and Xbox 360.

>>10391963
>I’m 40
lol you're 39 at most. Maybe 39 and a few months, but not 40. Stop larping.

>>10392823
Blue Shift is Literally The Same Game.

>>10387557
It had similar limitations to the gamecube but even moreso. games limited to barely over 1gb with proprietary disc. you can make good games with that but some games just needed more, especially if there were lots of fmvs. controller with less analog sticks would give it control problems in any port that played fine on ps2 and xbox. even if it continued to sell well with first party games, i think it would've been the fourth choice even behind the gamecube for any multiplat games. and why would a third party ever make an exclusive for it? I like a lot of these dreamcast games and I appreciate the VGA output, but overall it wasn't that great of a machine. For being a bit older than the ps2, it was pretty good. i wouldn't expect it to compete with gc or xbox. there's really no way it could have.

>>10392829
The Wii was a full generation behind the PS360 tho, the Dreamcast was half a generation at worst and titles would still look good even if the graphical fidelity was reduced. The only real question mark is the size of the GD-ROMs, seeing as how devs were disgruntled by even the GCN

>>10392979
Half a generation behind was a pretty big gap back then. The PS2 had a lot of cutting edge tech under the hood for its day. Then the GameCube and Xbox came along a year later with even better specs.

>>10392979
The Wii at least was a few years later when games had steadily increasing budgets and longer development cycles. Plus it sold a billion units so dedicated versions for it was a no-brainer. The Dreamcast would be in a weird space where it's ports would need some massaging but it'd be one of four consoles and not doing a version for it might be more economically sensible given budgets and release schedules. When you can put out a game on PS2/GCN/Xbox that are all largely consistent with each other, doing a unique Dreamcast port would hinge on the sales outweighing the investment. And nobody arguing in good faith would suggest the Dreamcast sells Wii numbers. At best you'd be talking Gamecube numbers.

>>10393035
DC games were MILES easier to develop for compared to the PS2 and as a result, most titles ran and looked better, if anything, the Xbox was the much bigger threat hardware wise, it having the same design philosphy (ease of development, PC-like architecture, online play) but better in every single regard. Looking at raw figures is kind of stupid in that regard, devs mostly care about ease of development and platform install base, everything else can be worked around

>>10393045
For multiplatform games, it would be a nobrainer to gain another revenue stream. Problem is that the biggest publisher for the popular games at the time (Burnout, NFS, Fifa and countless others) was never going to make games for Sega so it's kind of a pointless conversation to have. And no dev would want to make games that can be easily pirated and played unmodded, that is what truly killed the DC

>>10393083
>and as a result, most titles ran and looked better

That would’ve lasted for all of a year at best until developers got a firmer grasp on the PS2 hardware, which is exactly what happened. The PS2 came into its own in fall 2001.

>>10393083
Piracy only "killed" the Dreamcast in shithole markets that barely even count. It was far from the main reason the Dreamcast failed in real places, eg Japan and North America.

>>10393103
Jesus, I forgot those all came out around the same time. For a system that had such a shitty launch line up, they sure as hell made up for it a year later.

>>10393103
not sure this is the big win people think it is, most of these "exclusives" were multiplat less than a year after release

>>10393113
Not really the point. The Dreamcast hardware quickly got outpaced by the "weak" PS2 hardware, which was still significantly more advanced.

>>10393128
Also: The sixth gen consoles all had wildly different architectures, unlike today where the PS5 and Series X are mostly built with the same parts. They each had their own unique sets of strengths and weaknesses which made things a lot more interesting than the modern console market.

>>10393103
>That would’ve lasted for all of a year at best until developers got a firmer grasp on the PS2 hardware
Try 2 and a half, the emotion engine was a clusterfuck of a processor and limitations like resolution, antialising and texture rendering just meant the same version of a game would always look better on a DC, maybe with less detail but visually

>The PS2 came into its own in fall 2001.
Those aren't multiplatform games that can illustrate differences between the platforms, nobody here is arguing about game library but the actual hardware. Le Mans 24H came out Summer 2001 on the PS2 >>10390596 and DC version is just better, same goes for games like Looney Tunes: Space Race which came out in 2002, F355 challenge, the Tokyo Xtreme Racer games and many others. There were games like Ecco which could take advantage of better hardware on the PS2 when it came to stuff like transparancies, but for the most part, the PS2 was in many ways like the Saturn, really powerful but also a pile of shit to develop on, so games barely took advantage of its capabilities.

>>10393108
>shitholes have better internet access than non shitholes
Nice logic.

>>10393169
Shitholes always have better internet access. Americans whined when Google told them 10Mbps download wasn't enough to play Stadia and I was like, hot damn americans put up with this shit?

>>10393169
Games developed for PS2 almost overwhelmingly took advantage of the unique features of the console. Basically every game with any particle effect looks better on it. It's actually crazy seeing how bad particles are on PS2 and how good ones tank the Xbox while the PS2 trucks along.

>>10388547
>The extra 8MB's could have also helped Windows CE games run better overall.
So basically useless?

>>10388615
Dreamcast could never run that, DC had such terrible flat light, I don't know why, even the PS1 had better light.

>>10391563
The only correct answer in this thread.

Sega was already in too weak of a position to compete effectively with everyone else. Better specs or a DVD drive wasn't going to save them.

>>10393497
That post isn’t right anyway. Yeah the Dreamcast had a decent first year, but really only in North America. It tanked in every other major market. And that’s primarily because it ran unopposed as the most powerful console available for that year.

>>10393169
Non-shithole countries don’t pirate as much as the third world, simple as that. Piracy definitively was not the primary reason for the Dreamcast’s failure in the first world.

>>10387557
Dreamcast died because it was already an outdated hardware by 2001 standards.
Imagine a NFSU or Metal Gear Solid 2 port for the dreamcast. Imagine how embarrassing that would be for Sega ?! Better to just concede with honor than to commit seppuku later.

>>10393792
Correct. Sega fans can make excuses all they want, but the hardware simply couldn’t keep up with the newer competition.

>>10388751
>>10388775
>>10390596
>>10390948
Stop comparing early PS2 games to the Dreamcast versions as a way to make the Dreamcast an equivalent console in terms of technology and capabilities.
We all know that the early PS2 games didn't take advantage of the console's full potential because developers hadn't yet had the time to fully explore and master the PS2's capabilities.
Just compare Midnight Club 1 and Midnight Club 3. or TimeSplitters and Black, or Summoner and FFXII, or Dynasty Warrios 2 and Dynasty Warriors 5. And we don't need to go that far into the future to point this out. Just check out how ahead of its time Gran Turismo 3 and ICO already was.

>>10392829
Gta games took up to two years to go from ps2 to Xbox. Nobody thought, oh I'll wait for the better version which could take god knows how long.
>>10392887
>Blue Shift is Literally The Same Game
No it isn't. Please stop posting in this thread.

>>10393128
What? The point is that those multiplats would have ended up on dreamcast pretty quickly if it hadn't been, ya know, discontinued.

>>10393913
And they would’ve looked like shit by comparison because they were made for actual next gen hardware, not the Dreamcast’s 5.5 gen specs.

>>10393865
I think he genuinely believes that there was some magical untapped power that could have made the Dreamcast run games like REmake or MGS2 lmao. Pure delusion.

>>10388969
>playing dark souls at 30fps
Ouch. I opted to play modded PTDE on steam deck and that was at least a tolerable way to play it on mobile.

>>10393935
>actual next gen hardware
>ps2
pick 1
Even if what you're saying was true, it's irrelevant since most of those multiplats were also able to run on PCs with low specs. You're crazy if you don't think rockstar wouldn't have ported GTA3 to the 'cast after the exclusivity window was over. They ported the GTA games to the gameboy color, for crying out loud

>>10393757
>That post isn’t right anyway. Yeah the Dreamcast had a decent first year, but really only in North America. It tanked in every other major market.
Wrong. Dreamcast sold moderately well in Europe. It sold about 1 million units.

Japan sold well as well. Selling about 1 million units.

The major problem was that Sega ran into production problems. The factories ran into issues and couldn't produce enough Dreamcasts for launch and the first year. The frustrated Sega Executives.

>>10393972
Delusional.

>>10393865
>We all know that the early PS2 games didn't take advantage of the console's full potential because developers hadn't yet had the time to fully explore and master the PS2's capabilities.
This same logic applies to Dreamcast.

>>10393976
it's clear that you have no valid arguments and are a salty console warring pissbaby, begone anon

>>10393935
Rockstar doesn't care about any of that. They would have ported their games to as many popular platforms as possible.

>>10394028
You’re the one being insane and claiming the Dreamcast was capable of things that it simply wasn’t. I’m just trying to bring you back to reality, friend.

>>10394032
Key word being "popular". Porting to Dreamcast would essentially be a demake.

>>10394060
>Key word being "popular".
This whole thread is a what if scenario about Dreamcast being popular enough for Sega to survive.

>Porting to Dreamcast would essentially be a demake.
>demake
You are just making words up now because you hate the Dreamcast and obviously love the PS2. You aren't even keeping up the facade of debating in good faith or presenting interesting facts.

>>10394081
I love the Dreamcast but I’m a realist. There was no magical, untapped power that was going to make the Dreamcast run a version of GTA3, MGS2, RE4 or any other major sixth gen game anywhere close to the other consoles.

>>10393975
>it tanked in every other major market
Dreamcast wasn't even sold in kmarts or big w here in Australia meaning they were fucked from the get go.

>>10394086
>here in Australia
the big market of dingusland, how could they forget about it? truly sega's biggest mistake.

>>10394026
Dreamcast came out in 1998.
Here is you Doom 3 for dreamcast, bro

>>10394086
>Dreamcast wasn't even sold in kmarts or big w here in Australia meaning they were fucked from the get go.
The Australian government (for some strange reason) literally held Dreamcast console and Dreamcast games confiscated shipments at the border. Australian border customs seized them. Something about Sega's shipments being mislabeled and posing a potential risk to Australia.

By the Sega cleared It up with the government, the Australian government ruined Sega's launch plans. It was a total mess. I have no idea why Australia's government would do that. Surely they couldn't have been that stupid to realize that the Dreamcast was a legitimate piece of hardware.

My best guess is Sony called in a few favors. They made the government give Sega a hard time.

>>10388710
That's not right. Medal of Honor: Rising Sun came on two discs on Gamecube

>>10394126
Now show the later DC games from 2001.

>>10394143
Every single one of them is more blocky looking and has more simplistic geometry because bottom line the Dreamcast could not push as many polygons as the more advanced sixth gen consoles. Sega’s NAOMI era games hold up pretty well because of the bright and colorful arcade art design and nice looking textures, but they were definitely more simplistic looking.

>>10394136
>That's not right. Medal of Honor: Rising Sun came on two discs on Gamecube
He's not going to admit he's wrong. He just going to say something like "Well that's just 1 game. I'm still right. Dreamcast sucks. PS2 best"

>>10394081
>You are just making words up now because you hate the Dreamcast and obviously love the PS2. You aren't even keeping up the facade of debating in good faith or presenting interesting facts.

It's what he's been doing the entire thread. When confronted with facts and logic, he defaults back to insulting the Dreamcast and saying PS2 is better. He can't offer any technical discussions about why it couldn't be done.

I actually do game development for a hobby and had discussions about with other game dev enthusiasts about porting GTA 3 to the Dreamcast. We all agree it could be done with some modifications, using the latest modern SDKs, and some serious tweaks. It's a lot of work, but it could be feasibly done.

The biggest issue most of us face in the modding community is that we won't try it because Rockstar and large game companies always shut down fan projects like these. Rockstar is notorious for it. None of us want to get into the project only to be shut down half way through by a legal cease and desist.

>>10394171
See >>10394083. I’ll admit I’m wrong. Guess there were some third party GC games that came on two discs.

>>10394171
>We all agree it could be done with some modifications, using the latest modern SDKs, and some serious tweaks. It's a lot of work, but it could be feasibly done.

So you agree it could be feasibly done with 2023 technology. Wow, you really rocked my world, anon.

>>10394180
>2023 technology
I would argue that's a fair handicap for me since I'm just one person that would do it for free in my spare time. The most I could do is maybe get a few other people helping out on the fan project (assuming Rockstar doesn't shut us down). We would be using the technical expertise and lessons people have learned about the Dreamcast in the last 22 years to get GTA III ported to Dreamcast. Just like how fans and indie companies are still making games for old systems. Probably just to prove we cohld do it. To prove a point.

But if this were the early 2000s? Then I think any large game corporation throwing a Dev team of 200 people and $50 million dollars behind the project could probably make GTA 3 happen on Dreamcast. Their tools wouldn't be as advanced as we have today, but with that many people being paid to make it happen...they have enough raw resources to just brute force it and use methods that would be ridiculous for 1 person like me to try. It's really just a matter of how much time and effort they want to put into the project. Will their team go through every. single. polygon. and texture. in the game to optimize it for Dreamcast? Then rewrite the source code? It's a ton of work, but they could do it in months with that many people and resources. Meanwhile it would probably take me years to use that same method. So using modern technology is a fair handicap.

>>10394240
I just want to say that my argument this entire thread has been that GTA3 would be a very significant downgrade on the Dreamcast. Other anons here have been acting like the DC hardware was capable of running basically a 1:1 port with the PS2 version, which is a ridiculous claim.

Dreamcast is barely a 6th gen console. It's just a N64 with better textures and resolution, with internet and disc.

People forget the Dreamcast's rendering techniques, specifically "Deferred Rendering" which caches textures not visible to the camera to free up resources, would've helped greatly. Also Dreamcast with it's extra 8MB VRAM over the PS2's 4MB (which also handles GTA 3 fine) would play a role in Dreamcast's favor.

>>10394308
Wasn’t one of the PS2’s main strengths the ability to push a beastly amount of polygons at once?

>>10388731
I don't think ps2 would have as good textures, gta 3 has pretty terrible textures in areas. It must be something to do with compression because textures in ps2 games look all smeary and dirty as if they are full of jpg artifacts.

>>10388754
I always thought it was n64 and the yellow buttons with the stick

>>10394290
Apart from better textures, more polygons and more processing power its basically like the n64.

>>10394314
I remember the first set of games they raved on how stuff like smugglers run had an awesome amount of polys. Play the game now and it looks like absolute garbage, sure technically the terrain does have a smooth curvature but most of the polys just have the same few textures so actually the game look worse than older games for example like Insane on windows 98.

Thing is number of polys at the was equated with how good a game looks and texture filtering was used as an excuse to use terrible textures.

>>10387557
Yes, the graphics were good enough to succeed. The average normie didn't know good graphics if it slapped them in the face which is why a huge number of big sellers on the ps2 have awful graphics. I double most people would notice the lower number of polys on dreamcast if games like fifa were made for it.

>>10394308
That's not what deferred rendering does.

>>10394390
I think the main issue is that the Dreamcast probably would have hit the upper limits of what was graphically possible on it by 2002 or maybe 2003 if you really want to stretch it. The other sixth gen consoles were really hitting their stride at that time producing some fantastic looking games. Sega probably would have had to market the Dreamcast as a budget friendly offering at a greatly reduced price.

>>10394390
One of the biggest losses with the Dreamcast was the death of Sega Sports games. This allowed EA Sports to have a monopoly with no real competition whatsoever.

Only delusional dreamcucks believe that it could

>>10387557
>Assuming the Dreamcast survived, could it have competed with the PS2/GCN/Xbox or was it too outclassed? How powerful was it in reality?
Probably. DC was only out for what? A year? A year and some change? The developers did not have enough time to really learn how to push the system with such little time. Other systems had 5 years.

>>10394705
It launched in Japan a full year earlier in fall 1998.

>>10387557
>competed with the PS2/GCN/Xbox
Xbox was only made because Dreamcast dropped out of the console war. Microsoft had no intention of making Xbox if Sega was still around with Dreamcast. The market was too crowded.

If Dreamcast was still around then it would only be Dreamcast/Gamecube/PS2 for the three consoles fighting it out. Xbox would Not Exist.

The controller wasn't built for 6th gen..or 7th gen I can't remember what the fucking number is. You get my point. It didn't have enough buttons or sticks

>>10394871
It worked fine. Nobody ever complained about wsad needing to be replaced with analog movement.

>>10393268
Topic is multiplatforms tho and 95% of the time those ran worst on PS2.

>>10393767
You're a definitive asshat

>>10394869
Anon, the Xbox was already announced and in production well before Sega discontinued the Dreamcast and announced it would be their last console. You don’t just whip up a console.

>>10395265
Piracy was not the main factor that 'killed' the Dreamcast in first world markets. Thinking otherwise is idiotic.

>>10395285
It wasn't the main factor, that was the PS2, but it's the ultimate factor, the last stab to have killed any hope for the system, effectively killing off third party support. Claiming that Americans had no internet access in the 2000s and that piracy didn't play part in it it just a really sad cope, but I guess you can always leave it to the Amerisharts to blame the Chinese, Indians and Europoors.

>>10395313
That’s not what I’m claiming. What I’m claiming is that piracy for the Dreamcast in the first world wasn’t truly a widespread thing until after it was already discontinued.

>>10395313
>Chinese, Indians and Europoors.

Actually when I think of game piracy, South America is what comes to mind first and foremost. Then maybe Eastern Europe.

>>10395321
And it was widespread in the third world before it was discontinued? Again, what kind of world do you live in where third world countries are the main market for cutting edge game consoles and had better internet access than US/EU? And of course Sega will discontinue the system prior to piracy becoming truly commonspread, not after they've lost hundreds of millions pushing out games for a dead system, the date of the discontinuation is completely irrelevant here.

>>10395396
I’d say in the third world it was much more common to find burned games being sold on the streets. The ability to go to a ROM site, quickly download a Dreamcast game and burn it to a CD-R was more common starting around say 2003-2004, not 2001.

I mean Nintendo gets by on decades-old hardware, as long as Sega kept making DC-level games I don't see why not.

The DC's failure was not a fault of the hardware or the software, it was momentum from the avalanche of bad decisions from years before. There was nothing that could have saved Sega in the console business.

>>10395436
Nintendo was forced to exit the traditional home console market. They no longer directly compete with the 'main' home consoles. Sega also had nowhere near the level of success Nintendo had in the handheld market.

>>10395439
No one made good handhelds but Nintendo.

>>10395464
Pretty much what I’m saying, yeah. Nintendo had their profitable handheld division to keep them going when their consoles were underperforming.

>>10395426
Well I don't live in the third world but you're free to share your experiences.

>>10395545
I don’t either but it’s my basic understanding that in Latin America for example, everyone buys pirated games from street markets and such. Official releases might as well not even exist there.

>>10395283
>You don’t just whip up a console.
Yeah no shit. Your understanding of the history of Xbox is still wrong though.

>>10395585
>Xbox was only made because Dreamcast dropped out of the console war. Microsoft had no intention of making Xbox if Sega was still around with Dreamcast.

I was responding to that statement because it’s not true. Microsoft was going to enter the console market regardless.

>>10394869
One of the plans Microsoft had with xbox was to work with SEGA to create a joint console, that's why there's passing similarities to the dreamcast and why SEGA was a major 3rd party contributor in the first year. Depending on who you ask SEGA being a major early adopter of Xbox was either a bone they got thrown after BillyG screwed them out of a joint deal, or preferential treatment for assisting them on the project.

>>10395597
>I was responding to that statement because it’s not true. Microsoft was going to enter the console market regardless.
Again. You are still WRONG. Back then Microsoft was running around trying to buy game companies. They tried to buy Nintendo, Sega, Electronic Arts, Midway, and a few others. They all said no.

If any of them had said yes, then Xbox wouldn't exist today. Instead, we would have Nintendo Box powered by Microsoft Windows with Nintendo Live for online service. Or Sega Dreamcast 2 with Microsoft software and Sega Live for online play.

>>10395563
Maybe your understanding is too basic and you should do more research then. Game piracy is prevalent all over the world

I just wish PS2 actually supported 480p on more than a handful of games.

>>10395657
>Maybe your understanding is too basic and you should do more research then. Game piracy is prevalent all over the world
Yeah, but it's not what killed the Dreamcast.

>>10395706
Again, I might be a chain smoker with third stage lung cancer, if I get stabbed, my cause of death won't be lung cancer. No clue why you're being so insistent on such a well documented issue.

>>10395265
>Topic is multiplatforms tho and 95% of the time those ran worst on PS2.
They didn't, this is an often repeated rumor based on no evidence. Very few ran worse.

>>10395808
>Very few ran worse
The majority ran worse.

>>10395816
That's 1 game
Spyhunter ran better on PS2 than xbox and GC
Gauntlet Dark Legacy ran best on PS2
Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance ran best on PS2
Viewtiful Joe also runs the same on PS2 as it does gamecube.

So you have zero examples so far. Provide one.

>>10394314
That as well as particle effects and lighting. What would happen is Dreamcast games would have fewer polygons and special effects like the above but crisper textures. What benefits the Dreamcast in this context though is that how good something looks isn't linear to the poly count. Nobody would argue that Soul Calibur doesn't look good. Most would say it still holds up. Dreamcast games would look "simpler" compared to the PS2 but given how /vr/ hates muddy graphics, hypothetical Dreamcast ports may be preferred today on this board had they existed. GTA3 is a unique example because part of the game's fun is the sheer volume of pedestrians and vehicles, which the Dreamcast would have trouble with. But obviously not every game is GTA3.

>>10395831
>Viewtiful Joe also runs the same on PS2 as it does gamecube
Looking and sounding worse is not running the same.

>>10395843
Every medal of honor also looks and runs better on ps2, re4 has the same performance so far you've listed zero games that are running significantly worse on ps2.

>>10395742
Every console system had piracy. Dreamcast didn't die because of it. It was a minor issue.

Dreamcast died because Sega was broke financially as a company. 32x and Sega Saturn drained Sega of all their money.

They honestly didnt have enough money to even make the Dreamcast. Sega should have just transitioned into being a 3rd Party developer like Capcom. But Sega was stubborn and took out huge loans, and went into deep debt to pay for the Dreamcast.

The money ran out and Sega went into bankruptcy and shut down Dreamcast.

>>10395831
>That's 1 game
>So you have zero examples so far.
You need to understand English.

>>10395862
>It was a minor issue.
Thanks for your concession, dumbass.

>>10395859
>>10395843
If you want authentic comparisons, focus on multiplatform games that were designed to be multiplatform. Once you get into exclusives that were ported later you run into problems because 99% of the time that results in sacrifices regardless of the target platform.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2003/01/30/mortal-kombat-deadly-alliance-head-to-head

>"The PlayStation 2, as usual, received the brunt of the graphics sacrifices. The few that are visible, really don't make a difference, though. In fact, the biggest thing we noticed is the particle effects. Things such as smoke, snow, rain, and blood are slightly less impressive on Sony's console. The snow, for instance, is less thick and far more transparent. It just doesn't look as slick as it does on GameCube or Xbox. There is also a certain harshness to it that you don't see in the others, a trait the PS2 is well-known for. It's very minor, though, and definitely not something that will distract."

>>10395859
>re4 has the same performance
With less enemies, significantly reduced colors to the point where some textures are greyscale, low polycount on everything, sound effects compressed to hell, cutscenes made into FMVs from the GCN's real time renders and longer loading times.

>>10395883

>>10395875
>Thanks for your concession,
What concession? Read the argument below.

>What I’m claiming is that piracy for the Dreamcast in the first world wasn’t truly a widespread thing until after it was already discontinued.

This is still true.

>>10395742
>No clue why you're being so insistent on such a well documented issue
Maybe because piracy was proven to be inconsequential to media sales long ago.

https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2017/09/displacement_study.pdf

>>10395742
>>10395875
Arcades fucking dying was a bigger issue than piracy. It exposed the fact that their console business was never profitable, even before piracy was available circa June 2000.

>>10395883
Post is full of lies like the time this shithead lied about time splitters 2. Don't trust this emulating retard who only ever played 3 games in his life.

>>10395905
Feel free to point out the lies.
>this shithead lied about time splitters 2
You're still crying about shit from over a year ago. You got tricked, get over it.

>>10395910

>>10395910
You have a pattern of lying, so you're being treated as dishonest. Don't like it so get caught lying.

>>10395910
>>10395914
>pick game with dynamic difficulty that includes reducing number of enemies to demonstrate

>>10395910
You have a pattern of lying, so you're being treated as dishonest. Don't like it so get caught lying. Should have thought that through instead of trying to pretend you're a clever troll.

>>10395924
Professional has a fixed difficulty setting. The RPD outfit and professional difficulty are unlocked after beating the game.

>>10395926
>>10395925
the walls are closing in Sonykun...

>>10395926

>>10395904
This. Sega's success in the console market was always a mirage. The reason people remember them as ever winning is because if you were a kid in 90s America you happened to be there for the one flash-in-the-pan moment the Genesis had and the fuckton of marketing Sega of America did. All the Sonic media, for example, from comics to several cartoons, and the general affordability of Genesis consoles. Then these people look over at Japan and see Virtua Fighter moving Saturns and assume they were massive successes over there when, again, it was largely an illusion that trickled down from their arcade division's success.

Put it on a timeline, and Sega was in the console business from 1983-2001. That's only 18 years. Microsoft has now been in the console business longer than that. And during those 18 years, most of their time was spent barely holding on. The combined "success" of the Genesis in America and the Saturn in Japan spans from maybe 1991-1996. They rode a wave for five whole years. Good for them. But clearly it wasn't going to last. The second arcades died so did Sega's entire hardware division because it was never self-sustaining.