/vr/ - Retro Games

I just realized its a snake eating its tail. Always thought it was just a bunch of junk.

>>10371294
Anon discovers the ouroboros.

>>10371287
WELL HOLY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD DAMN

>>10371287
Mmm, donut

>>10371287
Case of unfinished game, exhibit A

>>10371287
another one of the fucking donuts

>>10371321
for anyone who's still hasn't seen this masterpiece in the year of our lord 2023

https://youtu.be/yl6QM4hUft8

Thanks C team, very cool.

>>10371294
It’s an armadillo lizard biting it’s own tail, notice the arm and spikes, snake doesn’t have those.
>>10371287
At least the stage music kicks ass.

>>10371287
They are not that bad.

>>10371287
Do android ate do(nut) as food?

>>10371287
It's actually kinda impressive that Capcom managed to make a boss that EVERYONE hates. No one even ironically likes it like the hyena in X7, it's just a bad fight.

>>10371294
>>10372972
I still don't see it. It just looks a fucking donut.

>>10371294
fuck

>>10371287
dude autofellatio lmao

>>10372273
I post it every time the subject pops up anywhere, thanks anon!

>>10373409

>>10373409
it's easier to tell when they reuse it in x8
but in x6 it IS just a fucking donut, zero animation on this lazy fuck

I can't grasp the perspective, seems like one of those Escher paintings.
5th gen was weird as fuck for 2D.

>>10373678
But those things weren't ever used in X8.

>>10373751
i'm very poorly remembering the similar thing from last minigame in the sunflower stage

>>10373793
Oh, that. I've thought that looked more like a dragon, but now that I think about it, it does look a bit similar.

>>10371287
There's something endearing about X6. It's not a broken game like Big Rigs, but it's hanging by threads. I'm just impressed they had the balls to release the game in the state they did.

>>10373834
It's fun to play once you know how to exploit and break it. That and the music is good

>>10371287

>>10371287
Why the hell they made it so gay with the gimmicks? The first game has the best level design in the series by far. The levels even change depending on things you do. X6 got great gameplay yet its put to such poor use.

>>10375592
Because the supposed gimmicks still require you to use your main moveset or obtained weapons to deal with them. In X1, things like stage effects don't matter because there is only one efficient route and choosing to ignore it really doesn't change much as the stage changes don't affect the level design itself enough, and in X1, dealing with a midboss, for example, is a matter of "I am forced to deal with this, so I will use Storm Tornado/uncharged shots". There isn't much to do with X1 once you know what to do, aside from a few areas. The donuts were ultimately made to solve a problem: in X1/X2, midboss stages (Launch Octopus/Magna Centipede) give you no incentive to do anything other than dealing with the same basic midbosses each time you replay the game, and the best solution for that is using the weapon to kill them as quickly as possible as the other options waste even more time, while in X5 (Duff Mcwhalen), forcing to deal with the midbosses causes the stage to be so devastating on replays that nobody likes dealing with it: it's simply too boring. X6 attempts to give a choice: you can avoid the stage entirely if you know what you're doing, the important items are in a separate part of the stage you can access after beating the second fight and you can use various instantkills to deal with the donuts, or, if you want to, you can spend your time fighting them regardless. The issue ended up being that very few people like to fight the donuts, while those who don't like those kinds of fights want to deal with them anyway and treat them as mandatory, so there's that, but they tried.

>>10375648
Gimmicks are such a slippery slope in these games. It can enhance or enrich a level with cool set pieces but in the case of the X games it seems they did more harm than good due to how poorly the series was handled overall. A good example is Jet Stingray vs Volt Kraken.

The speed bikes for both levels suck but at least Volt Kraken kept it to a very short beginning segment. I would actually have not mind had Jet Stingray's level starts with the speed bike but then in the second half of the level when you get to the water you jump off the bike and play a normal platforming type of level. So Volt Kraken ends up handling this kind of gimmick better imo despite the level still being lame since X5 overall as a game is a missed opportunity for another great X game. Overdrive Ostrich is another one that doesn't overuse the bike. Probably an even better example actually.

The series is full of stuff like this from lava overflowing in X2, how Launch Octopus dealt with the "dreaded water level concept" (it did so exceptionally well its a great level and boss), Cyber Peacock ranking gates and so many more. I guess it depends on how good you think a gimmick is and is it used well depending on the level and game but general consensus has always led towards certain games being good while others are bad so I think its safe to say which ones did gimmicks well and which didn't.

>>10375751
>Cyber Peacock ranking gates
God I fucking hate that shit just to get the helmet part

>>10375751
>The speed bikes for both levels suck but at least Volt Kraken kept it to a very short beginning segment. I would actually have not mind had Jet Stingray's level starts with the speed bike but then in the second half of the level when you get to the water you jump off the bike and play a normal platforming type of level. So Volt Kraken ends up handling this kind of gimmick better imo
Counterpoint, Jet Stringray tricks you into thinking its better because of how fucking rad its music is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4qUsOC8xUI

>>10375751
>I guess it depends on how good you think a gimmick is
Must all be subjective because I can't fathom how you'd prefer slow as balls door opening "puzzles" over the whole stage just being a bike stage.

>>10372273
I've only tried this game once because it was in the X-Collection, and proceeded to laugh at it on my birthday. Haven't played it since.

I really can't bring myself to hate X6. Sure, its hard and some of its level design is downright Romhack tier, but something about it just makes me enjoy the fuck out of it

I don't even go out of my way to do any exploits, I just play it normally and have a great time

I understand some might perceive it as trolling, but I genuinely prefer it to X4 and X5.

>>10373834
My experience with the X series was the original snes game and then played nothing till i got X6.

>>10377107
Ask how I know you play Zero

>>10376893
It was pretty easy for me from what I remember. Just get through the gates as quickly as possible. I like that gimmick overall it really makes the level memorable.
>>10376895
It is a pretty rad song but it would have been great to get some on foot platforming for the level.
>>10376954
I don't necessarily like it though. I meant that its good the level at least attempted to let the player do some on foot platforming and action. If its one of the 8 maverick bosses then the level should have a decent amount of platforming and combat. It feels cheap to make those levels too gimmicky.

>>10371287
JUST

>>10371287
How to scare X6 sissies

>>10371287

>>10377107
Unmedicated post

>>10375751
I think Overdrive Ostrich isn't a good example. It's not outright obnoxious like Stingray, but it still fails as a stage: there's just that basic starting segment before the bike and then after the bike section, a ton of Aclanda enemies in a row without much thought and that's the stage. They understood to not make the gimmick too intrusive, but if you take out the bike, there isn't really a level to speak of. Similarly for Peacock: as stupid as X5's ranking system was, the idea to make the player go pacifist and avoid killing enemies while still playing efficiently to get a good rank was interesting, especially in an enemy-heavy action game. To get everything in Peacock, you just need to play decently well, and because of that, there isn't really anywhere to go after that: you've mastered the stage, that's it.
>>10377107
I agree. It's a very, very in-depth game and makes use of X5 concepts in a way that isn't outright absurd, and in addition to that, the initial roadblocks are bypassed once you know what to do: the issues with stages like Heatnix only affect the player heavily if one wants to do things like playing as armorless X only and without any weapons, which is optional in a game like X6 as it provides you with Falcon from the start and makes getting Zero easy. It just has a pretty nice flow overall to most things even though something tells me at least some of it is completely unintentional.

>>10377441
>If its one of the 8 maverick bosses then the level should have a decent amount of platforming and combat
Nah, I like having full bike stages. It provides good variety to the gameplay as long as its kept to 1 stage. Although Boarski in X7 and Man o War in X8 are travesties.

>>10376954
I'd prefer anything over the shitty autoscrolling bike stages in X4/5/8.

>>10371287
ouroboner

>>10377441
classic 5 did it pretty well
would be neat to have something similar in his stage where you dash past lightning bolts or summit instead

>>10372273
This shit looks like something you'd see in a joke level, not the official product.

>>10376895
You don't hear much about Toshihiko Horiyama despite being imo one of Capcom's best composers

>use Zero
>hit R2 button once or twice
>donut dead
Are you guys even trying? This also makes those totem poles in Gates stage much easier.

>>10377879
As much as people bitch about JUMP JUMP SLIDE SLIDE, at least the game had the courtesy to tell you what's coming. The reason people don't like Jet Stingray and Volt Kraken is specifically because it doesn't and says "haha, hope you've got fast reaction times asshole"

>>10371287
This shit made me quit the game a few times.

>>10373392
This is what happens when you have the man who rewrote X4 into its retail form on the directors chair and get an sketchy company that sell used PC parts to code your shit because the original team didn't want to work with said writer + moved on to Battle Network.

This company, Value Wave, also worked on DMC2 and Street Fighter V (the latter under the name Sugarcut).

>>10378498
>Nah, I like having full bike stages
Your opinion is truly worthless

>>10379594
Why do you hate bike stages? What is supposedly so bad about them that makes them not okay while the dozens of other gimmicks in this series are okay?

>>10379461
None of the people in charge of X6's game design were from Value Wave.

>>10379763
They went uncredited but Value Wave on their old website had Rockman X5, Rockman X6, Rockman X7, Rockman X8, Rockman X: Command Mission, GOD HAND, and Devil May Cry 2 under their credits.

>>10379763
>>10379786
>https://www.mobygames.com/company/13991/value-wave-co-ltd/
MobyGames happens to have an archive to their credits (DMC2 isnt there tho), and a link to their now defunct site but you can see it via Wayback Machine.

>>10379786
I know that they were credited and definitely had an involvement, but there is not a single indication that they were responsible for even a single design decision, and that is what everyone complains about in those games. In fact, not many people complain about design decisions in X8 or GOD HAND, and those games, despite also having Value Wave involved, seem to have entirely different people in charge of game design compared to X5 and X6. I also doubt that the X4 guy (Koji Okohara) caused those things, but it is possible.

>>10379798
That they were credited in some of the games*, I remember them being in X7 and X8's staff roll.

>>10379798
The fact they got the same studio who did those terrible PS1 ports of Capcom fighters and the gig being "they can do Mega Man X with one third of the budget" is already a bad sign though. And Koji Okohara as the directors clearly called the shorts and the worst decisions on those three games were clearly on him. I refuse to believe Okohara being thrown to Capcom's mobile phone section (on a pre-smartphone era, no less) after X7 and being replaced by a different director appointed by Inafune and another producer is a coincidence. It doesn't help Okohara wasn't exactly on people's good graces, he completely revamped the original X4 draft writer by Hayato Kaji and Keiji Inafune, as well and the former X4 staff creating Colonel and Iris.EXE for BN to redo those characters once more. Okohara's rendition of Colonel does not match the official profile of the character, he made a knuckle dragging retard. I think /mmg/ had discussed this in depth a couple years ago.

And who fucking knows how X8's development went, since after that, Inafune was pushing for an "internal Rockman X team", with MHX being made so "the new staff understand what makes Rockman X fun".

>>10379826
X5 and X6, however, do not have many programming issues or similar problems, flaws discussed are always on game design and as such, Value Wave was unlikely to be related to it in any way. In addition, while Okohara might have had some influence, I doubt that someone who is specifically known for story-related matters had much of an influence on game design, and in addition to that, X4-X6 (and Xtreme 2) have continuity with eachother story-wise, which is something most other games lack or outright fail at (X8), which means that at the very least, he wasn't the worst at his job.

>>10378498
>Nah, I like having full bike stages. It provides good variety to the gameplay as long as its kept to 1 stage.
The only way I can see myself accepting this is if its maybe an optional stage. Maybe they can work optional stages into the story somehow if they ever decide to finally make X9. Obviously if you play optional levels there is some sort of incentive for doing it. But I cannot comprehend how you could actually want a Maverick and his level be ruined by mandatory speed bikes, for the whole level.

>>10379870
Because X5 and X6 worked off X4's engine, which was pre-made by the in-house team who did X4. You can tell those two games are just edited assets, like how Izzy Glow's Stage is edited from Split Mushroom (especially the staircase, now with worse perspective) or Blizzard Wolfang being recoded from Slash Beast. X7 was the one that was ALL Value Wave on a brand new engine and boy it shows.

As for Okohara, he was the scenario writer for X4, yes, but somehow became the director for the next three entries and clearly he had the worst ideas posible, in interviews his ideas for what "Rockman should be" were just baffling.

You mention the plot which is interesting, because originally Okohara was going to push hard for X being unrelated to classic and Dr. Light and Dr. Wily in X being completely separate characters from their classic counterparts, which Inafune shot down, especially with X5 originally as the "grand finale" to that storyline. At least we got a last Wily rodeo with Isoc in X6, that was fun. But that possibly wasn't on him but on the scenario writer of X5 and X6, Okohara only wrote X4, and then the next games he was in the director's chair for the project.

>>10380105
Glow's staircase is an entirely different render that, while resembling the Mushroom one, is likely to be a different model, and I have never seen anyone mention Wolfang and Beast sharing code, nor do they behave similarly. Those games did change how movement works, for example: X5 introduced crouching, but dashing out of a crouch started with an idle animation for a frame, which X6 fixed, on top of other slight quality of life changes being introduced like auto charging and rapid fire that weren't in X4. As for Okohara, I don't think there is as much of a connection as you make it out to be and it doesn't explain why there are two people credited as planners on X5-X6 but not on X4. In addition to that, none of those three are from Value Wave. For Light and Wily, Inafune himself claimed he had very little to do with X5 and just told the team to end the series off with it, and that doesn't explain why X5-X6 had such a focus on Wily while every game afterwards (including X7) doesn't even mention him. It's hard to find info on those games' development as is, but I can certainly say that Value Wave was not responsible for X5/X6's game design, that there was a lot of new work done for those games (both programming-wise and the visuals) and that Koji Okohara, even if he had an influence on the way those games were designed, wasn't the sole reason.

>>10380105
And here's three things:
"The world of Mega Man X is not the strictly determined future world of the original series. It’s merely one possible future, or parallel world. There’s a character that resembles Dr. Light in the X series, but whether they’re the same person or not, we leave ambiguous.", from the Shmuplations translation of the X4 interview, Okohara directly claims that they left it ambigious.
https://www.mobygames.com/person/109625/akiteru-naka/ One of the people credited as the planner on X6, he was later credited for game design in a lot of PlatinumGames stuff.
https://www.mobygames.com/person/533096/koji-okohara/credits/ Okohara was also credited as the director of the arcade Alpha 3.
And please, do not turn the development history of those games into some sort of fanfiction: in the end, the explanation is likely that either they didn't have time to test those games out (which makes sense when looking at the prototypes we do have) or whoever was specifically responsible for some of those game design decisions did legitimately think that stuff like the donuts was a good idea. That said, X6 for example did revamp a lot of things in general that required new assets and code: Zero was entirely revamped visually, including even things that didn't have to be changed to accomodate the new saber (idle, low health animation, buster, walljump) and the way his saber works was completely revamped as well, so make of that what you will.

>>10380195
>>10380218
I see a lot of protecting for a director ill-fit for the position who was later kicked downstairs for the mobile division. Even with the rushed development time, X5 through X8 do have a massive air of incompetence, X5 and X6 added unneeded bloat as well. Not retro, but Luminous Avenger iX 2 had a worse budget and development time (and a whole new engine, no previous games reuse) behind it to meet up some arranged crossover the CEOs of Inti and GemDrops signed on on a whim and still managed to be far more playable and enjoyable than X6. When the X4 staff left to work on Battle Network you can clearly tell shit hit the fan in the quality of the X series.
In fact, the X series quality issues could be attributed to the fact it kept changing hands so much.

>>10380229
I do not care for your opinion on those games: I care about how they were made and how they function. If you make claims such as Wolfang sharing any code with Beast or that Okohara wanted to push hard for X being unrelated to classic rather than it just being left ambigious, you should properly prove those claims. Even Sonic fans have more respect for the games they talk about, as they at least try to document how they work and how they were made, including games they might not like, rather than outright making stuff up to fit your view.

>>10380260
>Saying X5 to X7 are shit and the people behind them sucked at their job is an opinion and not an understood fact as it's been for 20 years.
Nah, you just want dishonest shitposting per /v/ customs.

>>10380274
You making stuff up and outright lying would still be the same regardless of your opinion: even if what you're discussing are "bad games", though you curiously backpedaled from including X8 into that, you are still a retard for holding your opinion over actual development facts and research into how those games function. The reason I mentioned Sonic fans is simple: even a game like Shadow the Hedgehog has research done into how it works, it's prototypes and also it's development, regardless of whether the people doing it think it's a bad or good game. You are the shitposter here, solely because you have no interest in the truth: Glow's staircase, for example, is actually a different model from Mushroom's, easy to see because of the completely different pillars and safety barriers. Whether one is better than the other or not is not important, and until you learn that, you should not talk about the intricancies of how those games were made.

>>10379898
Its interesting. Its really not different from any other gimmick.
>how could you enjoy any level thats entirely under water?
>how could you enjoy any level thats entirely ranking your speed?
Its really just down to preference. I'm also not bothered by Classic's bike ride in 5 and snowboard in 8.
I just don't get what people dislike about the bike stages, like sure Boarski and Man o War are dogshit, but the others are all fine. The only bad part about Squid Adler to me is the second half where you have to open the doors, its really slow and boring, a problem that plagues half of X5's maverick stages.

>>10380105
>because originally Okohara was going to push hard for X being unrelated to classic and Dr. Light and Dr. Wily in X being completely separate characters from their classic counterparts, which Inafune shot down, especially with X5 originally as the "grand finale" to that storyline.
probably would've been a better idea in hindsight since less people would complained about it being a gritty classic instead of "it was wily reprogramming the robots with free will all along even though he's dead (but not really) (but basically really because it's not like we're actually gonna follow up on that)"

>>10380306
The staircase is at a different perspective, I mentioned it here >>10380105 where I added "now with worse perspective" because the new graphics for that setpiece are a crime against the way perspective sprites are drawn compared to X4. It does not change it's the exact same code as Split Mushroom's set piece regardless of the sprites being new pre-renders.

>Bringing up the Sonic fandom of all things
Jesus fucking Christ, have some shame. At least dig on the /mmg/ archives where all this shit was discussed to extensive depth back in like 20 or 21.

>>10371308
>>10371294
TIL

>>10380260
>Even Sonic fans have more respect for the games they talk about, as they at least try to document how they work and how they were made
Exactly. 90% of the Mega Man fanbase is too stubborn to actually care about learning more of the franchise's history outside of their selective reverence for specific ideas or presentations.

Things like Zero's ending cutscene in X6 are never investigated despite there being things obviously wrong with it. The art for both stills is by far the worst in X6 which actually has consistent quality save for Sigma's cutscene appearances, it feels like a total non-sequitur when you actually encounter it, and I'm not sure if it even exists at all in the only prototype of X6 we've got.

>>10380941
The issue with saying it's the exact same code is that you do not present any proof, nor state what is shared, exactly. In addition, your claim has also jumped from the entire stage being based off Mushroom's to one segment sharing code, which is a rather large jump: this stage specifically has had to have completely new graphics made for everything but the few enemies that are seemingly just the X4 ones (though, despite that, some places state that the X5 Guardians are actually changed from their X4 counterpart, but don't state what the changes are, so that doesn't help) and new code for every new object: new enemies, gimmicks, midboss and boss, so on and so forth. To claim that entire games are just "edited assets", especially when so many things did require new code and graphics for it in those games, like X6 Zero, the X5-X6 parts system or the behavior differences of enemies and bosses based by boss level and difficulty mode in X6, is not a good idea. Regardless, have a good day.
>>10381030
TCRF mentions that the graphics for ending and credits are present in the data of the prototype, but nothing beyond that. There are some rips of unused X6 prototype stuff on Sprites.Inc that I haven't seen anywhere else, but those relate to some of the midbosses and Stage Select. There are some tools on Romhacking.net for extracting the X5/X6 .dat files, but they don't support the prototype one and error out.

>>10381813
>TCRF mentions that the graphics for ending and credits are present in the data of the prototype, but nothing beyond that.
I've been trying to find where the game sets what demo scene to play in RAM, no luck so far.

Previously, I found what is either a leftover from the port of X3, or possibly proof that the mid-stage character swap was thought of for inclusion in X4 as well. I flipped an address from 01 to 00, and suddenly Zero started playing like X, charge shot and all.

>>10382392
That is interesting. I rememer running into something similar when screwing around with the X6 prototype and trying to change the character during the ready animation and ended up with what looked like the Ultimate Armor, but playing like the Shadow Armor with broken graphics for the Shadow Armor-exclusive moves.

>>10379786
>Devil May Cry 2
Oh god

>>10382392
>or possibly proof that the mid-stage character swap was thought of for inclusion in X4 as well
Since X4's story is structured as two separate campaigns this definitely wouldn't have worked. In a game though where they would have the same story and goal this would be great.

>>10384535
Hence why I speculated that it might be a leftover from the X3 port, or something left over from VERY early in development before a story was even decided upon.
If you're curious what trying to do a single slash looks like as X, here you go.

As well, I found the code I was looking for. TCRF technically already had it, X6 uses the "Checkpoint Modifier" as a sequence ID, and every sequence is in. Save for Signas' portrait, it is just MIA altogether it seems. Oddly enough, more fuel to my fire of Zero's second ending sequence being a late addition: It is the last one on the list of valid entries, and it has the same art as the final.

>>10371294
Oh shit

>>10379158
Jet Stingray is easy and pretty fun, Volt Kraken is romhack-tier

>>10384647
Volt Kraken is fine if all you're doing is trying to beat the stage. What makes it an absolute motherfucker is trying to get the armor piece.

>>10384647
>>10384813
>>10379158
It's Squid Adler

>>10384598
I see. It's very likely to be a late addition, then, though having an earlier prototype to be sure would help, but I'd say you are right and it is a late addition.

>>10385191
My speculation for the state of that scene is this:

Earlier in the game's development, the scene did not exist at all. One thing that happened while the game was in development was E3 2001, where Capcom not only had X6 on display, but also announced Battle Network, and Takuya Aizu is on record referencing this E3 as it is the only one that fits considering his references to X5 being recently released and Battle Network "being prepared".

When Inafune got the green light for ZERO, perhaps X6's existence came to his mind and he checked in on development, only to find out that X6 had brought the character of Zero back from the dead. This caused his internal headcanon to break, since all he cared about X5's story was that Zero died and nothing else. He used executive authority to mandate the addition of a scene where Zero has himself sealed away, and it was probably based on a VERY early draft of MMZ1's story, if it isn't just complete improv altogether.

Only reason I say Inafune's at fault is because he's the only one that has expressed anything towards that X->ZERO story link.

>>10386147
>Only reason I say Inafune's at fault is because he's the only one that has expressed anything towards that X->ZERO story link.
Nta but hell, he even introduced a retcon in Zero to explain where the Sigma Virus came from (it's supposed to be a program to extract and absorb Zero's own latent bloodlust leaking out of his pod pre-X1 and infecting others with the same need to kill he used to have before Sigma smashed his wily symbol)

>>10386147
>>10386178
I hate Inafune's Zero wankery so goddamn much. The guy can't fathom X being the protagonist so he has to up the ante with this unhinged shit just to steal the spotlight.

>>10386182
It really wasn't a thing until X4 where Zero was actually given a story beyond being a cooler Hunter that was X's friend. Then EVERYTHING had to be about Zero, at least in X2 you can justify it in that he basically died to save you in X1 and you feel obligated to restore him.

>>10386178
>>10386182
It just keeps escalating.
>it can't be that Zero is a character that starts stronger than X so you have a narrative reason to improve yourself over the course of X1 so that you can surpass him
>it can't just be that the main sideplot of X2 is to put Zero back together
>it can't just be that Zero is upgraded to playable in X3 and if you use him against one specific boss you get an upgrade for X that maximizes his power that makes defeating Sigma a breeze
>it can't just be that Zero's story is now arguably more important than X's in X4 to the point that he now has a gf, goes through tragedy, and was revealed that he used to be a Maverick AND was built by Dr. Wily
>no, none of that is enough, we need to reveal that EVERYTHING bad in the X setting is by proxy his fault because he was the ORIGINAL Maverick

>>10386221
Man, why is the story to the X games so convoluted? This is honestly worse than how Sonic introduced story in the Dreamcast onwards. I get they were taking MM in a bold new direction with cutscenes and story in X1 but they really overcomplicated it when these games really just needed the bare minimum.

>>10386227
>This is honestly worse than how Sonic introduced story in the Dreamcast onwards.
??? Sonic Adventure's story, while dumb, is generally pretty damn simple. I don't think it ever retcons itself and even Shadow's story is just about how you shouldn't be defined by how you were born.

>>10386234
That's point I'm making, but it's still silly that Sonic went into so much story when it's a game about a blue hedgehog that jumps on a man who makes robots.

>>10386221
>EVERYTHING bad in the X setting is by proxy his fault because he was the ORIGINAL Maverick
AND he has to be the one to do the heroic sacrifice to stop it instead of X whose entire purpose is to stop the carnage from destroying more and more of what are essentially his kids, as well as the humans Dr. Light trusted him to protect.
And of course it's also Zero who has to save X from death yet again at the end of X5.
And then in MMZ Inti finally gets their chance to write X out of the plot altogether, their first idea being that "X turns evil and Zero kills him" which Capcom rightfully called fucking retards for trying, and then they just resort to "yeah X just kinda gave up and left for Cyberspace lol" which is just as bad.
>>10386193
Their dynamic in X1 and X6 was great. They were inseparable bros who fought evil to the bitter end, but the writers failed to keep that up in between those two games. It had everything to be a great war story with camaraderie and sacrifice but they just had to put the shonen into overdrive.

>>10386356
I know it's a non-retro example but who loves their creation more, Inafune with Zero or Toriyama with Lightning?

>>10386361
Inafune. Because as much as Lightning wank was bad back in the day, we didn't get an entire new subseries dedicated to her as well as shoving her in everything physically possible like Inafune did with Zero. We got 3 games and she's in Dissidia and that's it.

>>10386193
As a side, this is why I think that lore flowchart couldn't have possibly existed before *X1*. It was probably drafted after X1 at the earliest, and before X4 at the latest.

>>10386221
Don't forget:
>It can't be that Sigma went maverick because of misplaced passion from knowing two ridiculously strong Reploids he should outclass wildly
>Or that Dr. Cain repaired flaws with Zero's cognitive program which were causing him to be ax-crazy
>Both were because of The Virus™
>Sigma went maverick because he punched Zero in the forehead and got infected with The Virus™
>Zero also got infected by The Virus™ he already had at the same time
>Also Dr. Wily is totally alive and influencing everything, he's totally Serges
>NO YOU CAN'T DENY IT ARIGA CONFIRMED IT AND-AND THE SERGES TANK IS LIKE A WILY MACHINE
>AND-AND ISOC IS WILY BECAUSE THEY USE THE SAME VOICE ACTOR--

>>10386361
Inafune went as far as demanding a Zero cameo to be put in a Classic Megaman game (Power Fighter's Bass ending) but not an X cameo.
He also went as far as making Zero's appearance in Battle Network overpowered. The guy was obsessed.

>>10386147
Seems plausible. The X ending (without Zero rescued) might have an implied connection to that ending as it has Zero leave to deal with something else, but the X ending where Zero is rescued doesn't have anything like that at all.
>>10386389
I am pretty sure that in the Japanese version of X2, Serges does say some things that imply he knows more than the others (saying that he was defeated by Dr.Light's memento after the Serges Tank battle), but the other two X-Hunters seem to just be Sigma's henchmen, so Serges' supposedly being Wily does stand out as odd, especially since aside from that line, his death has no fanfare and he's just forgotten entirely afterwards by both X2 and games that came after.

>>10386389
See when it comes to Sigma and the Virus, I think it's more that while Sigma had some issues with the whole Maverick situation, they were just niggling thoughts in the back of his head at the end of the day. What the virus did, in specifically X1, was give the push that made those thoughts move to the forefront and dominate his mind to the point that you can't be sure how much is the virus's influence and how much is his own decisions.
By X2 onwards it's unambiguous, the virus has completely overtaken Sigma because when he was destroyed the virus was what preserved his memories and personality.

>>10386397
>He also went as far as making Zero's appearance in Battle Network overpowered.
Which I always found wierd because Protoman.exe is already basically the BN version of Zero alongside being that world's Protoman. Classic Protoman never used a sword and had long flowing hair.

>>10379461
>>10379786
>>10380105
You can still visit Value Wave's website under Internet Archive, and their involvement with Capcom mostly bogs down to supporting with programming and graphics.
http://web.archive.org/web/20111214003908/http://www.valuewave.co.jp/develop/kaihatu.html

In order words, Value Wave were pretty much freelance codemonkeys and you're full of shit. Capcom Production Studio 3 ultimately produced, developed and designed these games, including the excellent Dragon Quarter (outside combat's movement in that game feels very similar to X7's). The only exception is X8, developed by the Capcom Production Studio 1 was involved and planning support from Value Wave, and the latter party had no involvement whatsover with DMC2.

Also worth nothing Value Wave includes music outsourcing, particularly to the X5/X6 composer and five other composers in X7.

>>10386485
My issue is more that The Virus™ dominates any other motivations so hard that X8's story reintroduces the concept of Reploids having free will.

>>10386450
One thing that can't escape me is the original JP script has Serges reference the "Wi... Nu...", and not some form of "my creation" like we'd expect Dr. Wily to. Also, I don't read that far into him calling X "Dr. Light's Memento", mainly because the Counter-Hunters are formed explicitly to take down X. It isn't like X being made by a Thomas Light is said to be some closely guarded secret, it is probably just some irrelevant footnote, otherwise.

As for Isoc, I think it is just as likely that he is the one who rebuilt Zero more as an experiment. It is worth noting that he and Gate both were working with Zero's DNA, and I figure that the Nightmare Zeroes are a byproduct of trying to restore Zero in some unusual or unorthodox way, maybe the same method the 8 investigators were brought back to life through.

>>10386863
Isn't it Sigma who says that after defeat and not Serges? That aside, fair enough. As for Isoc, I think that the details on who he is and whether he was the one resurrected Zero or not were kept vague to add a bit of mystery to things, but I don't have anything to really back that up beyond the game itself never confirming who resurrected Zero specifically.

>>10386863
>It isn't like X being made by a Thomas Light is said to be some closely guarded secret
Pretty sure it is. Ground Scaravich in X6 was executed for trying to rob the ruins where X was found, though the translation really doesn't make that clear.

>>10386863
If The X-Hunters managed to find Zero's pieces before the Maverick Hunters did, and managed to restore as well as upgrade Zero's body even though Wily is supposedly the only one who knows how to do that, my guess is that they found the labs where Zero's and X's capsules were kept and learned about them while the Hunters were in complete disarray due to Sigma's rebellion in the interim before X1 and X2, hence why Serges knows so much about them.
Either that, or Isoc built them like he built Hi-Max to be the "X-killer".

>>10387146
Dr. Cain and/or his people are able to rebuild and upgrade Zero's body just as easily if X gets them all first. I mean, it's presumably just clicking the head, torso, and legs back into place and then waiting for the control chip to reboot, with a saber and new shoulder-guards added for the hell of it.

>>10387157
Zero looks very different after being rebuilt by the X-Hunters though.

>>10386947
It is Sigma that says that, my bad.

>>10387095
For all we know, the site is restricted due to it being a preserve, not necessarily because what can be found there is expressly forbidden.

As a side, can I point how weird it is for Alia to be dropping just how morally dead inside she is as a researcher in her stage clear commentary? It's like every backstory to the Investigators has her dropping "and then I murdered them in cold blood for Gate LOL" at the end of their history.

>>10387095
>>10386863
I think X not being a Reploid is itself a guarded state secret

>>10386863
>My issue is more that The Virus™ dominates any other motivations so hard that X8's story reintroduces the concept of Reploids having free will.
I mean, Inafune specifically said X4 was meant to add moral ambiguity to a series that previously didn't have any so it just being the fault of the virus fits there. The problem is he added that moral ambiguity in the laziest, most Japanese way possible to the point that I feel like fucking Inoue ghost-wrote it: MISUNDERSTANDINGS

>>10387180
Alia was responsible only for Wolfang and Scaravich's deaths, and I think the intention was to imply that she regrets it, but it was probably lost in translation due to how weird it comes off in the official localization. Curiously, in the conversation before Wolfang's fight, Alia does try to mention something about Wolfang but doesn't finish, where-as before Scaravich, she instead mentions that the mission is long and tiring, for some reason.

>>10387346
We forgive her, because she's hot.
But why WOULD someone give a robot rockin' tits, when you really think about it

>>10387358
>spoiler
Well, the games don't tell us about the small army of robot maids that attended to Dr. Cain that I totally didn't make up just now but justifies everything in terms of making female reploids sexy

>>10387358
Same reason why they're made in humanoid form in the first place - to more easily interface with humans and each other in society. Dr. Light's vision was to make a world where humans and robots coexist, not a world where robots are just faceless tools. That's what the mechaniloids are for.

>>10387389
Maybe, but I wonder how many people became robosexual because of this decision

>>10387393
Yes, there are human/robot couples in the lore, nothing wrong with that at all. They eventually become one species by the time Legends rolls around.

>>10387396
>They eventually become one species by the time Legends rolls around.
Yes but not because of fucking robots, but because nanomachines made them indistinguishable

>>10387398
That and the world government reinstates the "expiration date" law from 20XX for Reploids.

>>10387398
>Still questioning the existence of cute robot girls
Look man stop wasting our time and just say you have shit taste.

>>10387396
They become one species by time ZX comes around.
In Legends they are all extinct and replaced with Carbons(Decoys in Japanese)

>>10386356
X should have been playable in X3 and 4. It could have happened and his death was a complete asspull done almost completely for shock value which contributed nothing because he appeared as a spirit repeatedly in the next game anyway before randomly being killed off for no good reason again (along with the guardians, again for no clear reason).

Would have been cool for X to muscle in on Zero's story in the latter half of his games like he did in the X series. Too cool to actually happen, unfortunately. I think X would have been a better protagonist for the grimdark Zero setting honestly, Zero barely even reacts to anything until X3.

>>10389464
>X3 and 4
Obviously mean Z3 and 4