/vr/ - Retro Games

>>10356404
The actual game logic is 3D, the renderer isn't (which was mostly done for speed rather than being technically impossible) so most people call it "2.5D." But if someone's got a gun to your head and is demanding you make a choice between Doom being 2D or 3D, then saying it's 3D will probably get your life spared

>>10356404
If I remember correctly each point has an thin image which is rendered according to its distance front to back, its angle and its elevation so it looks superficially 2D but the depth is accounted for in game and represented by size

>>10356404
Limited 3D. You have two full dimensions and one third dimension which is very limited to specific gameplay applications.
Graphics engine is capable of rendering 3D environments but it has been limited for better performance on 1993 PC hardware with things like using 2D map data and 2D BSP trees.

>>10356424
I guess I should say that the depth is faked by the point holding a height and elevation value and far away points being rendered higher on the screen and floor being automatically rendered beneath. It's as this anon said>>10356425 2D maps crunched down into binary trees in order to access their data rapidly on small storage

Everyone asks that but the real question is: Is Wolfenstein 3D actually 3D? I would say it isn't considering it has no y-axis variation.

>>10356404
I know what it isnt, it isnt HD you widescreen queer

>>10356404
Not only is doom 3d, I would argue that it is more 3d than many newer "true" 3d games. Because whilst doom does not support room over room, it makes such extensive use of z-axis with its numerous staircases and elevators and pits all over the place.

>>10356421
the renderer is 3d, there is just no z sorting, so objects cant occupy the same x,y cooridinate despite one being at x1, y1, z1, and another being at x1, y1, z100000000

3Deez nutz

>>10356516
Nothing whatsoever to do with z-sorting. The engine is quite capable of having multiple objects at the same xy coordinate. Its a collision detection issue, and it only applies to players/enemies, missiles are quite happy to occupy the same xy space as another object.

>>10356404
What do your eyes tell you dummy?

>>10356465
Whether it's a "3D game" could be called into question as the third dimension does not exist as far as gameplay is concerned, but the scene depicted still does have height, width, and depth. If you were to make a physical model of a Wolf3D level, it would be a three-dimensional object.

>>10356507

yup, im a fag for downloading it on steam and it being in widescreen/HD

It's both.

The map info at its base is purely 2d but there are data structures formed from it(sectors) that incorporate further info(floor / ceiling heights) that later is used to draw the world appropriately. This was a clever way of primitive compression since the walls are indirectly defined. Furthermore the floors' and ceilings'(polygons) edges are being created(limited) by the walls during rendering. Collision detection is 2D(actors are infintely tall), whereas line of sight is 3D and pretty elaborate.

Carmacks way of doing things was beyond clever.

>>10356648
It's not polygons, if anything it's just a surface, no verts, just pixel information. But impressive nonetheless.

>>10356648
>Collision detection is 2D(actors are infintely tall)
They are manually set to be infinitely tall though. Doom engine supports things going on top of each other, it's just used only for projectiles. Hexen has it for monsters too.

>>10356583
>the third dimension does not exist as far as gameplay is concerned

When describing a game as 2D or 3D, what matters is how it appears on the screen, so it's 3D.

>>10356661


Floors and ceilings are polygons which (edges) are generated from the projected walls.

Isn't everything infinitely tall and nothing can be stacked on each other so in reality it's 2d?

>>10356583
>the third dimension does not exist as far as gameplay is concerned,
Yeah, no. Wrong. Incorrect:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYGJQqhMN1U

>>10356758
Every ingame object has a Z coordinate so they exist in 3D gameworld. The engine is specifically told to ignore Z coordinate on some objects when doing collision detection for optimization.

>>10356758
The collision detection is missing some z-checks. But not all of them, proper 3d collision is implemented for projectiles, for level geometry, and hit-scan attacks. They were on a pretty tight budget in regards to cpu cycles, so the engine is very janky and does the bear minimum it can get away with, you can fix the collision with just a few lines of code.

>>10356738
the screen is 2D so every game is 2D

>>10356673
Would've been nice if they made it so you could walk under Cacodemons in the vanilla engine.

>>10356939
I'm aware there's sourceports that allow this but I think it should've been a feature in the base game.

>>10356730
>>10356771
Now read my post again, to the end, and see if you can use your brain to figure out which game I was talking about. You might also glean this information from the post I was replying to. I'll give you a hint: it wasn't Doom you fucking mouthbreathers.

>>10356959
Oh, I apologize. Legit. I didn't realize you were talking about Wolfenstein 3D. Point to you anon. I'd argue Wolfenstein's essentially a 2D game jerry-rigged to display as 3D but I get your point too. But like compare it to Ultima Underworld and you can tell the difference.

If your character is able to change the perception of depth by moving, it is 3D.

>>10356673
A lot of things people(a few autists) point to in order to claim that Doom is "not 3d" are fixed in Hexen. You can jump, it has platforming at various heights, etc.
Doom has a lot of 2d gameplay because it just worked when they were developing the game. It doesn't make it a "2d game".

>>10357372
>Doom has a lot of 2d gameplay because it just worked when they were developing the game
A lot of it was optimization. It ran on 486DX2 (a 1992 CPU) well enough.

>>10357372
Things like monster melee attacks not checking for height is a deliberate (if kind of clunky) design decision. In the earliest released versions of Doom, monster melee attacks worked like the player's, ergo a finite range hitscan attack, which could miss (for instance because the target moved too low or too high somehow), and this would on rare occasions cause infighting among the same species, or them blowing up barrels, etc. Things they did not want.

Rather than adding some exceptions, they just changed it to a simple check to whether or not the target is in 'horizontal range' of the melee attack, without accounting for vertical range at all. This is how a Pinkie can bite a Cacodemon which is 20ft up in the air, or how it can bite you in the foot even if you're standing on a way tall lift.

>>10356404
3D game world
2D character models + pickups

>>10356941
Definitely one of the worst decisions they made. Its especially painful since its just a few lines of code to implement it.

>>10359089
You're stupid, they did it so the game would run on office PCs. Pentiums were very expensive.

>>10359093
I doubt it would've made much of a difference. Even the top of the line Pentiums in 1993 weren't fast enough to hit the 35fps framerate cap.