/vr/ - Retro Games

Stupid question. The best PS1 games are 3D except SotN.

Nintendo 64 wins

>>10342664
3D of course
2D games were mostly arcade ports
>>10342697
SotN is technically a 3D game

>>10342803
>SotN is technically a 3D game
It's a misconception. The game's 2D.

>>10342807
Uh huh

>>10342815
Kek, MvsC2 must be a 3D fighter then. Dumb faggot.

>>10342820
Ah yes, the 2D backgrounds of MVC2

>>10342820
>MvsC2 must be a 3D fighter then
agreed. it is like how megaman x2 is a 3d platformer like mario 64 or crash bandicoot.

>>10342834
They are rendered in 3D, ergo they are 3D
OP never said the gameplay must be 3D

>>10342697
>SotN
Uses a 3D engine. As most playstation games do.

>All these 30-year old on /vr/ pretending to be 14 year olds trolling each other

>>10342842
What makes you think it does? You can have polygons rendered in a 2D engine.

>>10342852
Polygon here >>10342815 is behind alucard and in front of BG
It ends up wrapping around him without breaking other layers

>>10342918
>what is manual sorting

>>10342946
> The Playstation (henceforth PSX) cannot do 2D. "But," you say, "I've played 2D games on the Playstation. Of course it can do 2D. I've even seen specifications for the 2D capabilities of the Playstation in FAQs and other sources." This is misleading. The games you have played appear to be 2D because they are flat, not because they are 2D. While the Saturn has distinct hardware for displaying and processing 2D sprites and other 2D elements, the Playstation does not. In order to represent a 2D game, the PSX must have a 3D engine that creates a polygon, textures one side of it, and then keeps that side facing the same direction and manipulates that polygon as if it was a sprite. This means that doing 2D on the PSX is really just doing flat 3D. The specs you've seen in FAQs and on the net, then, are an estimation of the ability of the PSX to pretend to be doing 2D. This is unlike the Saturn, which has separate 2D and 3D capabilities that can be mixed when needed or utilized separately. In order to create Dracula X on the Playstation, the incredible 2D-looking game that it is, the programmers had to create a custom 3D engine. The theory, then, is that the Saturn Dracula X is a port of the PSX's 3D engine with modifications rather than a game reprogrammed to properly utilize the Saturn's 2D and 3D capabilities. While the Saturn version of the game has extra content and some reprogrammed or changed special effects, the engine itself was a direct port and the graphics were not effectively modified or touched up as a result.

>>10342664
I loved Crash and Spyro but Oddworld Abe's Oddysee and Exoddus literally changed my life, so 2D it is

>>10342982
>literally changed my life
How so?
Oddworld is my favourite retro game, but I wouldn't say any piece of media has ever "changed my life".

>>10342998
>How so?
Nightmares as a kid, I still quote and speak like the Mudokons with my sister as a joke, I used to draw art from the game, etc.

>>10342960
PS1 literally has rectangular sprite objects, which are separate from polygons, specifically for 2D graphics. But it doesn't matter because 3D game is the game that operates its internal logic in 3D space regardless of how the graphics are drawn anyway. Picrel is made with polygons but it's a 2D game. Saturn games are made with sprites, even the likes of Daytona and Tomb Raider, but they are still 3D. You need to separate the way a game engine renders graphics and the number of planes that it operates internal logic in.

>>10342697
>FFIX
>Gran Turismo 2
>Vagrant Story
>Front Mission 3
This anon knows

>>10343084
Saturn has the ability to do both properly

>>10342664
2d easily. most people have no idea what theyre talking about. cps2, taito f3, prime snk, all ps1 and saturn 2d games, all 2d computer games too. it was a better generation for 2d games than 3d.

>>10343182
"gens" only refer to the consoles. And even if you use the term for arcade boards then CPS1/CPS2 and Neo Geo both can be considered 4th gen 16-bit hardware which roughly is overclocked Sega Genesis with more memory and better VPDs. Taito F3 is 32-bit but I refuse to believe that people really care about it.

>>10342664
3D.
But it's a bad question because many ps1 games still used 2D game formulas enhanced by occaisional 3D elements (hence all the pointless autism ITT about games like SOTN).
Final Fantasy Tactics took the Tactics Ogre formula and made the maps fully 3D instead of Isometric, for example.
Parasite Eve used 3D models on prerendered backgrounds.

>>10343209
>Parasite Eve used 3D models on prerendered backgrounds.
Dunno about PE, but Resident Evil games operate in true 3D space. Prerendered background is just a texture mapped to the viewport.

3D

>>10343217
Again the point is that it's mostly pointless semantic autism. Is the goal to distinguish presence of any 3D tech or 3D-oriented game design?

>>10342664
2D games
Especially if 2.5D counts as well

3D. 2D games are generally less numerous, and not as good as the ones released in the 4th gen.
>dude, you can play Megaman X4 and Castlevania SoTN!
And then what?
Those aren't even as good as the ones on the SNES.
>You can play Rayman!
I would rather not.

3D 5th gen games aged like dogshit. low poly 3D aged worse than brown and bloom

2D 5th gen on the other hand was PEAK GAMING. NOTHING COMES CLOSE. it completely refined and perfected 2D gaming and all the games were masterpieces.

the 5th would've been much better if it stuck with 2D and let 3D start with the 6th gen.

>>10343550
shit take faggot

>>10342960
It literally doesn't fucking matter what method you use as long as the end result is 2D. Modern 2D games use the same methods the PSX used.

>>10343550
>2D 5th gen on the other hand was PEAK GAMING. NOTHING COMES CLOSE. it completely refined and perfected 2D gaming and all the games were masterpieces.
Name 10

I'd go 2D, simply because I can get my classic 3D fix from the PS2 and Gamecube. The 6th gen vastly improved on 3D, there were some classics that were never improved upon sure, like the Zeldas for instance, but they were few. Some of that generations 2D games however were pure excellence, like Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Grandia, Oddworld Abe's Oddysee/Exoddus.

Even today with access to all the games it's those ones I go back to, if I want 3D I'll usually go 6th gen.

>>10342664
2D of course, 3D is ugly

>>10343068
Right, so it changed your life in a trivial and meaningless way. Literally everything has by that standard. What you had for breakfast this morning changed your life because your life is exactly what it is, and a life with any different event would be a different life.

>>10342664
Nowadays, 2D for sure. When I was younger, I'd choose 3D. However, It's not black or white for me, there are still a few 3D games I like.

most 2D 5th gen games are just SNES ports like FFVI or Lunar so 3D

Here

https://youtu.be/lFWfoF5ZoRE

Watch

>>10343889
Nah, there are plenty of arcade ports and several original titles. Mainstream was 3D, so resources were put into that, but 2D gaming still had some moments during 5th gen.

>>10343873
but he created funny memories with his sister, there is a bunch of piece of shit media you just consume and forget in a week.

>>10342664
3D by far
>Tenchu
>Syphon Filter
>Crash games
>Gran Turismo
>Tekken 3
>Soul Blade
>Medievil
>Metal Gear Solid
>Resident Evil games
>Tony Hawk games
>Dino Crisis 2
and more

What does 2D have?
>Castlevania SotN
>Megaman x4
>Metal Slug 1 and X
>Marvel vs Capcom and similar fighters
>Street Fighter Zero 3
All great games but doesn't compare to 3D

>>10342960
Polygons and sprites are the exact same thing. They are both textured 2d shapes. You argue that the ps1 can't do 3d, but its the exact opposite, the ps1 only renders 2d. The way ps1 renders graphics is basically the same as the Saturn, just a bit less shitty.

>>10343873
>>10343934
Yeah I mean it was over 20 years ago and we still make the fart noises to each other. I liked Spyro but I don't run around saying
>"Thank you for releasing me"

2D. 3D didn't become good until the 8th gen and by then gaming was dead anyways.

>>10343979
Yeah no

>>10342664
If you had to choose between being a hobo with a 5% chance of being inherited from a rich guy, or Hitler 2 years before the war was over, which would you choose and why?

2D. I never liked Metal Gear Solid, Tomb Raider or Resident Evil. The only 5th gen 3D games I enjoyed were Crash, Chrono Cross and Jumping Flash. Meanwhile 2D has greats like Alundra, Suikoden II, Breath of Fire III, Valkyrie Profile, Legend of Mana, Strider 2, Castlevania Chronicles, Zanac Neo, the Gradius and Salamander ports, and a bunch of awesome fighting games.
>muh jarpig
JRPGs are good

>>10343941
>>Metal Slug 1 and X
>>Marvel vs Capcom and similar fighters
>>Street Fighter Zero 3
These are 4th gen 16-bit games so they don't count

>>10342664
Based on what we got? 3D
In a hypothetical "what if ps1 was focused on 32bit 2D and not just 3D" then id prefer the ps1 as a 2D majority focused system

>>10342697
Heart of Darkness and the Oddworld games are also pretty good tbqh. Tomba is decent as well I suppose. You also have MMX4 and Capcom's fighting games. At the very least there are some quality 2D games for the console. I haven't even listed the lesser known ones. Its a valid topic not stupid at all.

>>10345096
>Capcom's fighting games.
Why do people continue bringing these up? They are not related to thread.

>90-100% 2D :
Policenauts, Alundra, Brave Prove, Community Pom, Legend of Mana, Castlevania Chronicles, Symphony if the night, Goemon Akogingu, Mega Man 8, X4, X5 & X6 [Improvement hacks], Oddworld Oddysee & Exodus, Lunar 1&2, Rhapsody 1&2, Saga Frontier 2, SMT 1&2, Star Ocean 2, Tales of Phantasia, Suikoden 1&2, Valkyrie Profile, Brigandine Grand, Langrisser 4, Master of Monsters, Tearring Saga,

>2.5D (3D levels, 2D characters):
Azure Dreams, Breath of Fire 3&4, Strider 2, Thousand Arms, Xenogears [2.0 patch], FF Tactics [Lion War hack], Front Mission 2&3, Kartia, Saiyuki, Vandal Hearts 1 & 2 [+Turn Based patch], Vanguard Bandits,

>2.5D (3D characters, 2D environments):
Koudelka, Chrono Cross, FF 7, 8, 9, Legend of Dragoon, Parasite Eve 1, Wild Arms 1, Res Evil 1-3, TRAG, Mr Domino,

>90-100% 3D:
Gamera 2000, Omega Boost, Tempest X3, Vanark, Bloody Roar 2, Ehrgeiz, Tekken 3, Rival Schools, Bushido Blade 2, Ape Escape, Crash 2&3, Dr Slump, Spyro 1-3, Apocalypse, Future Cop, Ghost In Shell, One, Gekido, Gunnm Memory, Jackie Chan Stunt Master, Aconcagua, LSD Dream, Mizzurna Falls, Brave Fencer Musashi, Dragon Valor, MediEvil 1&2 [PAL], Threads of Fate, MM Legends 1&2, MGS 1+VR, Rising Zan, Tail Concerto, Tron Bonne, Nectaris, CTR, Jet Moto 2&3, RC de Go, Wipeout 2&3, Racing Lagoon, Rollcage 1&2, Vigilante 8 2nd, Silent Hill, Chaos Break, Deception 2&3, Remote Control Dandy, Team Buddies, Silent Bomber, Trap Gunner, Devil Dice, Frogger Swampy, Incredible Crisis, Paranoia Scape, vagrant story

>>10342815
From ps1 onwards 2D and 3D refers to a style and is almost never pure. All of the 3D games have 2D effects, even on the fucking ps5

>>10342803
AKSHUALLY ALL VIDEO GAMES EVER ARE 2D BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL RENDERED ON A SCREEN

>>10342825
>>10342840
>>10342842
>>10342960
>>10343979
See:
>>10345201
>From ps1 onwards 2D and 3D refers to a style and is almost never pure. All of the 3D games have 2D effects, even on the fucking ps5

>>10342697
>>10343417
>>10343786
>>10343889
>>10343941
Policenauts, Alundra, Brave Prove, Community Pom, Legend of Mana, Castlevania Chronicles, Symphony of the night, Goemon Akogingu, Mega Man 8, X4, X5 [Improvement hack], X6 [Improvement hack], Oddworld Oddysee & Exodus, Lunar 1&2, Rhapsody 1&2, Saga Frontier 2, SMT 1&2, Star Ocean 2, Tales of Phantasia, Suikoden 1&2, Valkyrie Profile, Brigandine Grand, Langrisser 4, Master of Monsters, Tearring Saga,

>>10343101
>>10343209
>>10343217
Those games are 2.5D
>2.5D (3D levels, 2D characters):
Azure Dreams, Breath of Fire 3&4, Strider 2, Thousand Arms, Xenogears [2.0 patch], FF Tactics [Lion War hack], Front Mission 2&3, Kartia, Saiyuki, Vandal Hearts 1, Vandal Hearts 2 [+Turn Based patch], Vanguard Bandits,

>2.5D (3D characters, 2D environments):
Koudelka, Chrono Cross, FF 7, 8, 9, Legend of Dragoon, Parasite Eve 1, Wild Arms 1, Res Evil 1-3, TRAG, Mr Domino,

>>10345221
>>10345245
Mental retardation

>2.5D
What a stupid meme. You either have the third dimension in your coordinate system or you don't. Everyone who uses 2.5D unironically should be hanged by legs and beaten with a stick.

>>10343550
>Shit grafix, good gameplay:
Tempest X3, Apocalypse, Future Cop, One, Brave Fencer Musashi, Team Buddies, Silent Bomber, Trap Gunner,

>Mid graphics, good gameplay:
Omega Boost, Vanark, Bushido Blade 2, Ape Escape, Gunnm Memory, Jackie Chan Stunt Master, Aconcagua, Mizzurna Falls, Dragon Valor, MediEvil 1&2 [PAL], Rising Zan, Nectaris, Jet Moto 2&3, Rollcage 1&2, Vigilante 8 2nd, Deception 2&3, Frogger Swampy, Incredible Crisis,

>Good graphics AND good gameplay:
Gamera 2000, Bloody Roar 2, Ehrgeiz, Tekken 3, Rival Schools, Crash 2&3, Dr Slump, Spyro 1-3, Ghost In Shell, Threads of Fate, MM Legends 1&2, MGS 1+VR, Tail Concerto, Tron Bonne, CTR, RC de Go, Wipeout 2&3, Racing Lagoon, Silent Hill, Chaos Break, Remote Control Dandy, Devil Dice

>>10345254
Nah. They're mixing 2D and 3D graphics in a way that is very distinct. Get over it nigger.

2.5D refers to a couple of very deliberate art styles. They could have used 3D characters instead of sprites if they wanted to.

>>10345264
Game is either 2D or 3D regardless of the graphics that it uses. And mixing 2D and 3D graphocs doesn't make either of them 2.5D you dumb nigger. They stay 2D and 3D.

Autistic faggots will tell you this is a 3D game because it has Z-axis sprite Scaling.
>UMMMMMM *slurps flem* AKKKKSHHHULLLLY
2D and 3D more refer to the STYLE of a game, not autistic technicalities that nobody gives a fuck about.

>>10345272
>2D and 3D more refer to the STYLE of a game, not autistic technicalities
Who said that?

>>10345268
>UMMM AKKKSHUUULLY DOOM IS 2D
False.
Source: I'm not a eunuch

>>10345274
Me

>>10345272
I bet your chimp brains can't even define what 2D or 3D 'style' is. A game is 2D to you if you feel like it is.

>>10345283
Faggots like >>10345272 think that Doom is 2D

>>10345293
Sorry, but only an autistic faggot like you would find this so difficult to comprehend.

>>10345298
Why do you find this so difficult to comprehend then?

>>10345294
Both comments, are me. You illiterate fucking spaz. That comment is explicity calling tales of Destiny dx a 2D game, even though it has a Z axis, BECAUSE OF STYLE.

Doom has a 2.5D art style, 3D gameplay, and 2D programming logic. And its 2.5D art style has EXPLICITLY become a style, because people have gone out of their way to replicate the style with modern games that use fully 3D engines. So you have modern games that use 3D engines to replicate the 2.5D art style of a game that used 2D logic.

Deal with it nigger

>>10345303
I don't. You're the one who can't wrap your head around it.

I understand what you're saying fully, you're just wrong.

>>10343208
Instead of worthless release dates, games should be categorized based on the styles of the era, which (like architecture) is a product of the technology used. The "generation" should reflect the technology used and not the date. Look at the way architecture is categorized for example (Classical, Mid-century modern, Postmodern, Neomodern, New Classical, Contemporary, etc…). Mid century modern will never become classical. Similarly, Jazz music will never become classical. It's dumb to call an 8 bit hand held a later gen just because it came out later. The gamegear is literally just a master system. The Wii is literally just an overclocked gamecube and has a weaker CPU & GPU than the Xbox. When a hobbyist decides to manufacture his own delorean, it's not a "current gen" car, because the technology is old. Using this logic, here's the REAL gaming eras:

The Pixel Era:
Gen 1 (1 bit) - Literally just Pong
Gen 2 (Low 8 bit) - Atari 26/52/78, Vectrex, shitboxes nobody cares about
Gen 3 (high 8 Bit) - NES, Gameboy, Gameboy Color, Master System, Game Gear, PC 88, MSX, ZX Spectrum, Pico-8, TIC-80
Gen 4 (16 bit) - SNES, GBA, Genesis, PC98, TG16, Amiga, Neo Geo
Gen 4.5 (32 bit 2D and 2.5D only) - Sega 32X, 3DO, PC-FX
Gen 5 (32 bit 2D and 2.5D Only) - PS1, Saturn, N64, DS

The Early 3D - Low Poly Era:
Gen 4.5 (3D titles only) - Sega 32X, 3DO
Gen 5 (3D Only) - PS1, Saturn, N64, DS

The Early 3D - Mid Poly Era:
Gen 5.5 - Dreamcast, PSP, 3DS
Gen 6 - PS2, Gamecube, Wii, Xbox

[Insert Globohomo Here]

Modern Era (HD widescreen, Microtransactions, Day 1 patches, hyper realism, Casualization, homogenized controllers, homogenized architecture, mocap, facescan, Californian management, etc...):
Gen 7 (Mainly 720p) - 360, PS3, Wii U, Switch
Gen 8 (Gen 7 + Stable 1080p) - PS4, Xbone
Gen 8.5 (Gen 7 + 4K) - PS4 Pro, Xbone X
Gen 9 (Gen 7 + 4K + RTX) - PS5, Xbox SX

>>10345308
>BECAUSE OF STYLE
>the game is 2D BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE IT IS
nigger education was a mistake

>>10345316
Styles exist. Genres exist. This thread is about style, not game logic. There are no ps1 games with 2D logic, thus, anyone who isn't auristic understands that this thread is about the style.

>>10345254
What do you call 3d graphics with 2d gameplay?

>>10345323
>There are no ps1 games with 2D logic
There's a fuck ton of these even if you exclude arcade ports.

>>10345327
False. Those sprites are textures placed on polygons that face the camera. This is part of why so many ps1 arcade ports are Fucked, they had to make a whole new engine to imitate the arcade version which was real 2d

>>10345327
>dumb fuck nigger can't keep his story straight
>hurr durr this game that uses 2D art isn't really 2D cuz the game logic is 3D
>except this one that also uses 3D logic with a 2D presentation, this one is different... BECAUSE IT JUST IS OK!?!?

2d games by a longshot

>>10345331
First of all you said "2D logic" not "2D graphics". There is no Z coordinate in Guilty Gear game logic. The game engine is as 2D as Street Fighter 2.
Second, PS1 has a specific rectangular object named "sprite" and that's how it does 2D graphics. These are not regular screen facing polygons made of triangles, they are 2D objects which can be used either inside a 2D game world or 3D one depending on the game design. They are different from classic sprites from 8 and 16 bit console eras as well but that doesn't matter because 2D graphics had several different approaches historically anyway. Old 80s PCs didn't have hardware to draw sprites either, they just simulated it by different means.

>>10345360
There is a Z coordinate in the guilty gear game logic, you don't get to interact with it as the player. You're wrong you dumb fuck nigger. It's obvious at this point, that like so many of your fellow reძძitors, you try to be a know-it-all by repeating random bullshit you've heard elsewhere, but it didn't take much follow up for you to show everyone that you actually don't know that the fuck you're talking about.

>>10345368
>There is a Z coordinate in the guilty gear game logic
Show examples

>>10342664
Isn't it amazing how you can't have a simple conversation on thus board because of the autistic trannies who will derail the thread with arguments about technicalities that nobody gives a fuck about?

Anyway, I vote for the 2.5D shit this guy listed
>>10345194

>>10345375
Open it up bruh. For starters, the status bars and backgrounds are given different Z coordinates. There's no layers on ps1, just Z.

2.5D refers to a couple of very deliberate art styles. They could have used 3D characters instead of sprites if they wanted to, they wanted this very specific aesthetic. 2D isn't even cheaper than 3D, cheap 3D is as cheap as it gets, look at the unity store

games, spaces or perspectives that are simulated and rendered in 3D and used in 3D level design are said to be true 3D, and 2D rendered games made to appear as 2D without approximating a 3D image are said to be true 2D.

Common in video games, 2.5D projections have also been useful in geographic visualization (GVIS) to help understand visual-cognitive spatial representations or 3D visualization.

The terms three-quarter perspective and three-quarter view trace their origins to the three-quarter profile in portraiture and facial recognition, which depicts a person's face that is partway between a frontal view and a side view.

In axonometric projection and oblique projection, two forms of parallel projection, the viewpoint is rotated slightly to reveal other facets of the environment than what are visible in a top-down perspective or side view, thereby producing a three-dimensional effect. An object is "considered to be in an inclined position resulting in foreshortening of all three axes",[3] and the image is a "representation on a single plane (as a drawing surface) of a three-dimensional object placed at an angle to the plane of projection.

There are three main divisions of axonometric projection: isometric (equal measure), dimetric (symmetrical and unsymmetrical), and trimetric (single-view or only two sides). The most common of these drawing types in engineering drawing is isometric projection. This projection is tilted so that all three axes create equal angles at intervals of 120 degrees. The result is that all three axes are equally foreshortened. In video games, a form of dimetric projection with a 2:1 pixel ratio is more common due to the problems of anti-aliasing and square pixels found on most computer monitors.

In oblique projection typically all three axes are shown without foreshortening. All lines parallel to the axes are drawn to scale, and diagonals and curved lines are distorted. One tell-tale sign of oblique projection is that the face pointed toward the camera retains its right angles with respect to the image plane.

Two examples of oblique projection are Ultima VII: The Black Gate and Paperboy. Examples of axonometric projection include SimCity 2000, and the role-playing games Diablo and Baldur's Gate.

>numeric generation nonsense
kys

billboarding is when objects are sometimes represented by two-dimensional images applied to a single polygon which is typically kept perpendicular to the line of sight. The name refers to the fact that objects are seen as if drawn on a billboard. This technique was commonly used in early 1990s video games when consoles did not have the hardware power to render fully 3D objects. This is also known as a backdrop. This can be used to good effect for a significant performance boost when the geometry is sufficiently distant that it can be seamlessly replaced with a flat image file. In games, this technique is most frequently applied to objects such as particles (smoke, sparks, rain) and low-detail vegetation. It has since become mainstream, and is found in many games such as Rome: Total War, where it is exploited to simultaneously display thousands of individual soldiers on a battlefield. Early examples include early first-person shooters like Marathon Trilogy, Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Hexen and Duke Nukem 3D as well as racing games like Carmageddon and Super Mario Kart and trees in platformers like Super Mario 64.

>>10345336
>stupid nigger can't comprehend the fact that PS1 devs could combine 2D and 3D in graphics, gameplay and logic however they wanted
>needs to classify everything into categories
>a game is either 2D or 3D to him
>when he sees a game that makes his monkey brain explode he just labels it 2.5D and moves on

This is what 2.5D is.

The actual game is entirely on a two dimensional plane, it doesn't matter at what height something is drawn for the internal game logic, but it's still presented as 3D.

>>10345410
>you're a stupid nigger because you think a game is either 2D or 3D
>except when it's 2.5D
>I don't like the term 2.5D, because I think games are either 2D or 3D, therefore I am a stupid nigger

Congratulations, you played yourself.

>>10345413
That's one example.
There's multiple forms of 2.5D, just as there's multiple forms of 2D (side scrolling, top down, isometric, etc...)

>thread about choosing 2D or 3D games turns into autism about what 3D is
I hate this site

So what is F-Zero classified as?

>>10345413
This is called billboarding.
In some games, sprites are scaled larger or smaller depending on its distance to the player, producing the illusion of motion along the Z (forward) axis. Sega's 1986 video game Out Run, which runs on the Sega OutRun arcade system board, is a good example of this technique.

In Out Run, the player drives a Ferrari into depth of the game window. The palms on the left and right side of the street are the same bitmap, but have been scaled to different sizes, creating the illusion that some are closer than others. The angles of movement are "left and right" and "into the depth" (while still capable of doing so technically, this game did not allow making a U-turn or going into reverse, therefore moving "out of the depth", as this did not make sense to the high-speed game play and tense time limit). Notice the view is comparable to that which a driver would have in reality when driving a car. The position and size of any billboard is generated by a (complete 3D) perspective transformation as are the vertices of the poly-line representing the center of the street. Often the center of the street is stored as a spline and sampled in a way that on straight streets every sampling point corresponds to one scan-line on the screen. Hills and curves lead to multiple points on one line and one has to be chosen. Or one line is without any point and has to be interpolated lineary from the adjacent lines. Very memory intensive billboards are used in Out Run to draw corn-fields and water waves which are wider than the screen even at the largest viewing distance and also in Test Drive to draw trees and cliffs.

The game uses entirely 2D logic but creates a 3D perspective and 3D gameplay. This mixing of 2D and 3D gameplay, programming, and presentation, constitutes one form of the 2.5D style

>>10345423
A kind of 2.5D, see:
>>10345425

>>10345421
It's almost as if discussions lead to different topics, crazy I know
that's why I love this site, because OP always gets BTFO

>>10345428
But op didn't get btfo, just your autistic reძძit ass. You've gotten utterly buttfucked bro.

Drakkhen was notable for being among the first role-playing video games to feature a three-dimensional playing field. However, it did not employ a conventional 3D game engine, instead emulating one using character-scaling algorithms. The player's party travels overland on a flat terrain made up of vectors, on which 2D objects are zoomed. Drakkhen features an animated day-night cycle, and the ability to wander freely about the game world, both rarities for a game of its era. This type of engine was later used in the game Eternam.

Some mobile games that were released on the Java ME platform, such as the mobile version of Asphalt: Urban GT and Driver: L.A. Undercover, used this method for rendering the scenery. While the technique is similar to some of Sega's arcade games, such as Thunder Blade and Cool Riders and the 32-bit version of Road Rash, it uses polygons instead of sprite scaling for buildings and certain objects though it looks flat shaded. Later mobile games (mainly from Gameloft), such as Asphalt 4: Elite Racing and the mobile version of Iron Man 2, uses a mix of sprite scaling and texture mapping for some buildings and objects.

2.5D type A

>>10345430
Dunno what thread you're reading but it's not this one, OPs topic was changed and therefore he got BTFO

>>10345432
Oh ok, so you don't know what btfo means. Derailed isn't the same as btfo, btfo means you lost am argument. welcome to the internet, esl newfag

>>10345438
>Stay on topic
>No
>ergo BTFO
now fuck off

Parallaxing refers to when a collection of 2D sprites or layers of sprites are made to move independently of each other and/or the background to create a sense of added depth.[4]:103 This depth cue is created by relative motion of layers. The technique grew out of the multiplane camera technique used in traditional animation since the 1940s.[5] This type of graphical effect was first used in the 1982 arcade game Moon Patrol.[6] Examples include the skies in Rise of the Triad, the arcade version of Rygar, Sonic the Hedgehog, Street Fighter II, Shadow of the Beast and Dracula X Chronicles, as well as Super Mario World.

Since these objects have a Z sorting, they are all 3D games, like guilty gear.

>>10345439
Nah. Lurk until you learn to use word right.

Ray casting renderers cannot rotate the camera up and down like true 3D renderers (as seen on the left), therefore tricks such as shearing (right) are sometimes used to create an illusion of rotation.

>>10345381
>the way the game draws and sorts on screen graphics is game logic
No it's not. If Guilty Gear checked Sol fireball hurtbox Z coordinate against Ky hitbox Z coordinate to calculate collision then it would have 3D game logic. If PS1 SDK has Z coordinate available for drawing shit on screen it would be stupid to ignore it and write custom sprite sorting routine to emulate 16-bit games.
From that point of view, sprite sorting order in 16-bit games is a Z coordinate as well, just very limited for this specific use case and not useful for anything else.

>>10345448
You're referring to gameplay, only a portion of game logic. Z axis is used for aspects of the presentation, which is part of the game logic, it's programming.

Take the L bro, everyone is laughing at you. I'm sure you can get a bunch of updoots back on plebbit.

>>10345448
It's so funny when McDonald's Employees like you to arguing with real programmers. XD

Bump mapping, normal mapping and parallax mapping are techniques applied to textures in 3D rendering applications such as video games to simulate bumps and wrinkles on the surface of an object without using more polygons. To the end user, this means that textures such as stone walls will have more apparent depth and thus greater realism with less of an influence on the performance of the simulation.

Bump mapping is achieved by perturbing the surface normals of an object and using a grayscale image and the perturbed normal during illumination calculations. The result is an apparently bumpy surface rather than a perfectly smooth surface although the surface of the underlying object is not actually changed. Bump mapping was introduced by Blinn in 1978.

This is not real 3D.

>>10345415
>"because you think a game is either 2D or 3D"
>"except when it's 2.5D"
That's what you think, smoothbrain nigger.
>a game uses 2D graphics on top of 3D logic
>a game uses 3D graphics on top of 2D logic
>"ooh that is too complex let's just call both of them 2.5D mmkay?"

Parallax mapping (also called offset mapping or virtual displacement mapping) is an enhancement of the bump mapping and normal mapping techniques implemented by displacing the texture coordinates at a point on the rendered polygon by a function of the view angle in tangent space (the angle relative to the surface normal) and the value of the height map at that point. At steeper view-angles, the texture coordinates are displaced more, giving the illusion of depth due to parallax effects as the view changes.

This is not real 3D.

>>10345456
The fact that I broke them up shows that I very explicity do not think they're the same. I used the term 2.5D, because that's the term that already exists. You have not proposed an alternative term, you have instead insisted that they be labeled 3D, meaning YOU think games are either 3D or 2D, and are your own definition, a dumb nigger.

Thanks for playing. Midwit.

>>10345452
>real programmers
>can't separate screen drawing routines from game logic
This is why pajeet code is a meme

>2.5D doesn't exist!
The term is also used to describe an animation effect commonly used in music videos and, more frequently, title sequences. Brought to wide attention by the motion picture The Kid Stays in the Picture, an adaptation of film producer Robert Evans's memoir, it involves the layering and animating of two-dimensional pictures in three-dimensional space. Earlier examples of this technique include Liz Phair's music video "Down" (directed by Rodney Ascher) and "A Special Tree" (directed by musician Giorgio Moroder).

On a larger scale, the 2018 movie In Saturn's Rings used over 7.5 million separate two-dimensional images, captured in space or by telescopes, which were composited and moved using multi-plane animation techniques.

>>10345461
>can't separate logic from game design
Just stop bro, game mechanics on the player end, and programming logic, are not the same thing. You're out of your depth, mcbro.

>>10345460
>you have instead insisted that they be labeled 3D
Except I did not. Stop projecting your autistic labeling on others.

>>10345464
>it's not 2.5D
Ok what is it then?
>crickets.mp3
You're trying to move the goalposts but have no scare to move them. Just take the L fag. Everyone hates you.

>2.5D isn't real!
The term also refers to an often-used effect in the design of icons and graphical user interfaces (GUIs), where a slight 3D illusion is created by the presence of a virtual light source to the left (or in some cases right) side, and above a person's computer monitor. The light source itself is always invisible, but its effects are seen in the lighter colors for the top and left side, simulating reflection, and the darker colours to the right and below of such objects, simulating shadow.

An advanced version of this technique can be found in some specialised graphic design software, such as Pixologic's ZBrush. The idea is that the program's canvas represents a normal 2D painting surface, but that the data structure that holds the pixel information is also able to store information with respect to a z-index, as well material settings, specularity, etc. Again, with this data it is thus possible to simulate lighting, shadows, and so forth.

2.5D was also used in terrain modeling with software packages such as ISM from Dynamic Graphics, GEOPAK from Uniras and the Intergraph DTM system. 2.5D surface techniques gained popularity within the geography community because of its ability to visualize the normal thickness to area ratio used in many geographic models; this ratio was very small and reflected the thinness of the object in relation to its width, which made it the object realistic in a specific plane. These representations were axiomatic in that the entire subsurface domain was not used or the entire domain could not be reconstructed; therefore, it used only a surface and a surface is one aspect not the full 3D identity.

The specific term "two-and-a-half-D" was used as early as 1994 by Warren Spector in an interview in the North American premiere issue of PC Gamer magazine. At the time, the term was understood to refer specifically to first-person shooters like Wolfenstein 3D and Doom, to distinguish them from System Shock's "true" 3D engine.

>>10345463
>programming logic
Here's your quote:
>There is a Z coordinate in the guilty gear game logic
We were talking about game logic, not about whatever sprite drawing routines were used by GG developers. If you are an actual coder then you're just a dumb pajeet who puts main logic into frontend code. Also you redditors forget that you can't edit your posts here. Take your L.

>>10345465
>Ok what is it then?
>>a game uses 2D graphics on top of 3D logic
>>a game uses 3D graphics on top of 2D logic
Can't read?
>"noooo that's too long you have to label it with a short buzzword"
Monkey brains

>>10345478
All ps1 games use 3D logic.
The logic is not the art style, it's invisible to the player. On some systems, you can make an identical game using 3D or 2D logic.

That's not what defines 2.5D, you illiterate nigger

>>10345478
>noooo type out a full sentence every time instead of a commonly understood label, I'm an autistic nigger!
...He said while typing can't instead of cannot.

>>10345472
The word logic refers to programming, not game mechanics. Game mechanics refers to what the user experiences. Take the L bro, you look dumber every post.

>>10345484
Game mechanics are governed by game logic. Programming logic is a different thing entirely. Nobody but a stupid pajeet like you would put a sprite sorting and drawing routine into game logic. Take you L and leave a dislike at whatever free pajeet online programming course you took.

>>10345484
>Game mechanics refers to what the user experiences
>he now confuses game mechanics with UX
For fucks sake, you make yourself look even more stupid with each post

>>10345508
But game logic is not limited to game mechanics, retarded ass nigger. What a bunch of irrelevant blabbering lmao

>>10345471
this makes sense
I guess it can be used for the inverse too
2.5D is a 2D engine used to fake 3D or a 3D engine used to fake 2D

>>10345516
>game logic is not limited to game mechanics
I never said it is. At least you know something.

>>10345512
You're the one confusing game mechanics with UX. So much projection throgh this thread, it's sad. Knowing a moves properties is not UX, it's mechanics. Needing to know the exact way these properties are calculated by the code (any of which can be done 1 million different ways) is logic and not important for the player to know.

You continue to make yourself look dumber with every post

>>10345517
The fuck do you mean by "fake 3D" and "fake 2D". Examples?

>>10345512
Dude he completely wrecked you, just leave the thread. Also it's really cringe to see you just copy and paste other people's insults.

>>10345519
You implied that is with the very first line of your post. So, yes you did. And that's why your whole post was just irrelevant non sequitur blabbering.

>>10345523
Mode 7 and Doom is fake 3D
Projecting a sprite onto polygon like Muramasa >>10345396 is fake 2D
simple

>>10345517
We could create different labels for them, but nobody has yet.
>>10345523
Read the post he replied to you dumb nigger, the creator of system Shock told you exactly what he fucking means.

The PS1 only had two games with true 3D.

>>10342664
2.5D for sure
Azure Dreams
Breath of Fire 3
Breath of Fire 4
Strider 2
Thousand Arms
Xenogears
Final Fantasy Tactics
Front Mission 2
Front Mission 3
Kartia
Saiyuki
Vandal Hearts 1
Vanguard Bandits
Micro Machines V3
Ecsaform
Bomberman Wars
Baroque

>>10345521
Why are you quoting me, I never said any of the shit you've listed.
This >>10345484 stupid pajeet said that game mechanics are UX.
That >>10345381 nigger said that sprite drawing routine is game logic when in 99% of PS1 cases it is imported from standard SDK libraries. It's far away from the code that calculates projectiles.

>>10345526
Quote?

>>10345540
Nobody said game mechanics are the same as UX, you implied that with your shitty reading skills.

Also, you can keep screaming pajeet all day but everyone knows you're a nigger who works at Mcdonalds and I am a white programmer.

>>10345521
>Needing to know the exact way these properties are calculated by the code (any of which can be done 1 million different ways) is logic
That is game logic. Graphics drawing and sorting is also logic but it's not GAME logic.

>>10345540
You suggested a 2D game isn't 2D because you can pick out a random 3D element. It was then pointed out that this logic applies to all ps1 games because they all use polygons in 3D space, even if the player can't tell. You then moved the goalposts to claim guilty gear doesn't count because the Z axis doesn't affect gameplay, even though previously you argued that a game isn't 2D for containing some other 3D element that doesn't effect gameplay. Game logic refers to the internal mechanism of a game in order to perform all the tasks needed for it to work. It is programming logic applied to games, like collision detection, AI, animation, lighting, and so on. Telling the game to draw foreground objects on front-facing polygons which are 1 z position closer than characters drawn on polygons who are 1 Z position in front of the HUD which is 1 z position in front of background sprites which are 1 position in front of any number of parralaxing background layers, is all part of the game logic. You then started blabbering about how a fighting game move doesn't use the Z axis, which was off topic and irrelevant. You then proceeded to blabber about increasing off topic bullshit, each post making yourself look like a bigger and bigger dumb ass by using every single possible term incorrectly, then following that up with no sequiturs and straw men. You've been assraped. Move on already.
Y w n b a w.

>>10345550
Game logic refers to the internal mechanism of a game in order to perform all the tasks needed for it to work. It is programming logic applied to games, like collision detection, AI, animation, lighting, and so on. For ways in which the game logic can effect game mechanics in unintended ways, look at how the exact logic of the game can be exploited by speed running glitches that cayse the game to load the wrong memory address and such.

>>10345545
I'm an enterprise architect. If you're a dude who puts functional logic into frontend code then sorry, no job for you. No pajeets = no bad practices.

>>10345562
I'm white. You can scream pajeet all day and you'll still be wrong, and everyone lurking sees that you're wrong. Other commentator have already told you to take the L.

The ps1 was the peak of 2.5D

>>10345557
Half of these are not even me although I agree with some. But not this:
>You suggested a 2D game isn't 2D because you can pick out a random 3D element.
This is just retarded.
>Game logic refers to the internal mechanism of a game in order to perform all the tasks needed for it to work. It is programming logic applied to games, like collision detection, AI, animation, lighting, and so on.
Nope. Game logic is part of the code that governs game mechanics. Like whatever fireball properties in a fighting game are. If your game logic relies on physics simulation the you write a class for it or use existing libraries. You may put your own physics code that you wrote with your game logic but only if it is very simple and it usually is a bad practice.
You never put graphics routines into game logic ever. It's not 70s 8-bit computer bedroom coders times anymore and it wasn't 70s during the PS1 era either. You'll only end up with unmaintainable, non-reusable and hard to debug code this way. You said "lighting" and you may indeed control the way lighting is used with game logic but only tge way it's used, not the way it's made.

>>10345565
>Other commentator
The ip count didn't even increase, c'mon dude

>>10342664
3d any day
5th gen is when racing game really started getting good. i'm not trading
Gran Tourismo, Daytona Usa, Code R, Ridge Racer, V-Rally, Need for Speed, ManxTT, etc
plus all the great 3d games in other genres like Tony Hawk, Boku no Natuyasumi, Virtua Fighter 2, Mario 64, Resident Evil 3, Grandia, Crash Bandicoot, etc
for Policenauts, Puzzle Bobble, Bomberman, Tengai Makyou Daiyon, and a bunch of other jrpgs and platformers i'll never get around to playing.
>>10343550
>this schizo again

>2.5D autism itt
what a way to turn an interesting thread into semantic bullshit. here, i'll make it simple:
>you move in 3d space
3d game. billboarding and doom clones count because they are intended to create the illusion of 3d. same goes for those ancient dungeon crawlers with a fake 3d perspective.
>you move on a 2d plane
2d.
>erm well actuall-
technical bullshit doesn't matter. all that matters is gameplay.

>>10345579
Game mechanics refers to game mechanics. Logic refers to all kinds of things. There's massive fucking paragraphs in this thread explaining all the different kinds of ways a game can use 2D math to create a 3D experience, doom being the most popular example. You're just wrong faggot.

>>10345612
What do you think GAME logic refer to?

>>10345523
Mode 7 doesn't have a Z axis, but Doom does, and it's extensively used both in gameplay and level design. There is nothing "fake" about it. "2.5D" is just a marketing term as evidenced by this >>10345471

The guy wants to appear better than Doom so he's like "we have RREEAAAL 3D unlike Doom which is fake!"; but saying that System Shock is "true 3D" while Doom is "fake 3D" is like saying that System Shock/Quake/Half-Life was "fake 3D" all along and virtual reality is the real true 3D.
In other words, they're all just different methods of doing and rendering 3D.

>>10345618
2D enemies and weapons in doom aren't any kind of 3D. The art style is explicity 2.5D, the modern throwbacks that recreate those 2D elements in 3D engines are a testament to the fact that 2 5D is an art style.

Its only a marketing gimmick so far as all genres and art styles are

>>10345618
This game has an XYZ position for characters as well. To the extent that doom does anyway, a height attribute.

>>10345618
I think Doom should be referred to as "limited 3D". It has the Z coordinate but its usage is limited to specific cases and it is not functionally equal to X and Y coordinates in Doom engine. But if you really need to simplify then it is a 3D game. Just with an asterisk.

>>10345632
3D gameplay
2D logic
2.5D presentation

Many cases back then.

>>10345654
>2D logic
That would imply no usage of Z coordinate in game code which is not the case.
>2.5D presentation
Just no. Doom engine renders 3D picture. BSP maps are 2D though.

>>10345676
See:
>>10345627
There's no Z, it's more like the height value in tactics ogre. A state that you are assigned that is only calculated under certain circumstance. That's why doom can't do slopes.

>>10345676
It's a 2.5D presentation
The guns are 2D
The enemies are 2D
That's the name of the art style
Get over it. Doesn't matter if you don't like it.

>>10345705
>That's why doom can't do slopes.
Wrong. It can't do slopes because:
1) map format has no means to hold slopes information
2) slopes calculation is omitted during rendering for optimization
Duke Nukem 3D engine works very similar to Doom engine (except it uses portals for rendering) but it has slopes. Fun fact: slopes in Duke 3D is exactly what requires FPU and fast CPU to run the game properly. Otherwise the it would be as fast as Doom. Some Doom source ports reimplement slopes as well.

>>10345706
>It's a 2.5D presentation
>The guns are 2D
>The enemies are 2D
If guns are 2D and enemies are 2D then what is 2.5D in the game?

>>10345735
2.5D is the name of the style
But you already knew that

>>10345742
Isn't it an outdated term from the times when RTS games were called "action strategy" and FPS games were called "3d action" or "Doom clone"? I mean now that everyone knows how Doom engine works it is barely used.

>>10345756
2.5D predates video games, as already covered in this thread.

Its used to denote a S-T-Y-L-E

>>10345760
I mean in context with Doom

>>10345793
And we meant within context of all video games. It denotes a style that heavily mixes 2d and 3d graphics.

>>10345952
>refers to himself in plural

>>10345952
That would mean that Doom, Vandal Hearts, FF7 and Street Fighter EX are done in the same style.

>>10346021
Yep, that's stupid

>>10346021
Kek. 2.5D autist is in shambles

>>10345254
I get your point, but it's all figurative speech. Going by your rules, even 3D is wrong, because graphics are still representations on a 2D section of a plane. Just cease your autism and get the intention beyond the literal meaning of words.

>>10346045
>>10346021
No it wouldn't.
Metal is a style
>hurr durr that means slipknot, iron maiden, and rammstein are all exactly the same duuuuurrrrr
2.5D fps - doom
2.5D isometric rpg - breath of fire 3
2.5D platformer - klonoa
Another fail from an autistic weirdo.

>>10346090
>2.5D fps - doom
>2.5D isometric rpg - breath of fire 3
>2.5D platformer - klonoa
You can't be for real.

>>10346090
This

>>10346090
You are retarded.
Also rammstein sucks ass.

>>10346098
He's right. Stop being retarded. This term has existed for 30 years

>>10346107
Only a retard would suggest the word style means an extremely rigid template and not a spectrum. You're wrong, you've been wrong the entire thread, and everyone hates you.

>>10346107
Rammstein is one of the most artistic metal bands in existence. Go back to your nigger music or little girl kpop pedo shit.

>>10346090
>2.5D fps - doom
>2.5D isometric rpg - breath of fire 3
>2.5D platformer - klonoa
This is stupid.

>>10346102
Nope. Not this.

>>10346128
>>10346098
>>10346107
which one is wrong?

>>10346090
You've been told multiple times in this thread that your 2.5D autism is dumb. Everyone is laughing at you. Just stop.

>>10346113
Nobody listens to rammstein except europoors.

>>10346143
As a europoor, Oomph > Rammshit.

>>10346090
Why do you have to ruin the thread with your 2.5d faggotry? Do you own '2.5d' trademark and try to inflate its value?

>>10342664
Only 3D because the only PS1 games I give a shit about are Gran Turismo 2 and Parappa

>>10346139
Stop samefagging dude.
I didn't invent these terms, they've existed for 30 years and there's nothing you can do about it

>>10346139
>>10346153
Deal with it

>>10346143
Rammstein is extremely popular in America. Id also rather be European than a nigger.