/vr/ - Retro Games

Hardware emulation is still emulation

>>10327813
>No emulation
They gonna redo every transistor then? What a bunch of kikes

Holy shit. This changes everything

>>10327813
Gay and retarded. Although if you buy this to flip for retro gamer faggots with more money than sense good on you.

>>10327816
>>10327823
Emulators don't play games natively with 100% compatibility

>>10327823
That's literally what an FPGA is. Educate yourself, dumbfuck.

>>10327827
>natively
Neither do FPGAs, if it's not transistor accurate it's emulation, even if to a lesser extent

>>10327823
>>10327816
You guys should look into what FPGA is.

N64 games look like hot shit at their native res unless they're 2D-based, I cant wait for people to be disappointed going into this.

>>10327813
>64-bits
Ah, going after that Jaguar niche.

>>10327813
Huh, did not see that coming.

>>10327831
Field Programmable Gate Array.
A hardware-based emulator.

>>10327838
>ah yes I googled what the abbreviation means that makes me an expert
>now let me say something completely wrong and retarded

>>10327813
So what does this do that a N64 with HDMI out doesn't already?

>>10327831
Anyone still acting like this in 2023 is trolling, likely poorfags seething over the cost

>>10327813
>closed source paid software

>>10327831
>>10327840
>you should look into X
>N-NO! DON'T JUST LOOK IT UP! STOP!
Fuck off back to your subreddit, faggot.

I'm not buying an analogue product ever again, I've been waiting one year for that pocket update to allow openFPGA cores to use shaders and still radio silence, firmware updates haven't happened since may and there's still a shitton of crap to fix
>openFPGA 2 is not supported
cool expensive brick that does ONE thing

>>10327840
>hardware emulation isn’t emulation
Dumb ass digging deeper.

>>10327851
>does ONE thing
It does precisely what it was advertised to do, flawlessly. Sounds like you bought something hoping it would magically become something else, pretty retarded if you ask me

>>10327816
Great to see Analogue marketing team still using their old bullshit hype slogans after being constantly called out for them

>>10327850
>>10327853
and yet you still have no idea what it even is. You have a smooth brain and a low IQ.

>>10327851
this is an actual valid complaint, fuck proprietary locked-down shit.

>>10327858
Called out for what? When they say "emulation" they're talking about software emulation. Within the context of their own definitions it is correct.

lol

>>10327859
>and yet you still have no idea what it even is.
It's a FPGA made to exactly one thing and one thing only, play N64 games.
Why even open the thread if you couldn't figure that out?

>>10327863
>When they say "emulation" they're talking about software emulation.
But they don't say "no software emulation". They just say "no emulation", which is a false claim.

>>10327832
That's the opposite of true. N64 games look particularly shit when you up-res them and stretch everything out.
Maybe more so than with any other console they ought to be played as they were, on an old TV.

>>10327816
Its semantics. We used to call hardware imitations "clones" which was a distinct thing from software emulators.

>>10327829
Don't many of those implementations utilise hacks of some sort? They mostly rely on enthusiast documentation, and for 32-bit systems and newer physical limitations arise. Cause if they do, it doesn't really count as "native" to me.

>>10327830
By that logic the 1-chip SNES is an emulator.

>>10327875
This will look AMAZING in 4k. You'll eat your words.

>>10327883
I said don't play it in 4K.

>>10327830
But anon... It emulates the electrons moving through the reality!

>>10327882
It's often referred to as an "official clone", so yes, it's not the same hardware

>>10327841
4k rather than 1080p (or is it 1440p?)
But seriously, I like the idea knowing we have something as a backup. My n64 still works, I have an everdrive. This isnt for me. It wont be for me for a really long time, but someday when my n64 breaks and there's so few working n64 that no one's willing to sell me one, there's this. by the time that happens though, we'll have some crazy modifiable mister with cartridge and controller ports

>>10327841
You say that like getting an N64 with HDMI is easy or cheap.

>>10327867
That's embarrassing, but so are the apostrophes in CRTs and PVMs.
>>10327863
>companies redefining words to suit them is totally acceptable.

>>10327872
You're being obtuse. Everyone understands the word "emulation" in the context of video games refers to software emulation.

>>10327813
cool emulator
personally I can't think of a single n64 game that would look good in 4K

>>10327891
A N64 HDMI kit costs $50.

>>10327872
FPGA is not emulation you dense retard

>>10327886
Go ahead and say it. Say the SNES 1-chip is a Super Nintendo emulator. Commit to your foolishness.

>>10327898
It's also one of the harder mods to install whereas this clone requires no more than your credit card.

>>10327896
>Everyone understands-
No, they don't. That's why Analogue doesn't specify, because making the distinction would cost them sales.

>>10327901
FPGA is hardware emulation, you misinformed retard.

>>10327898
And an N64 is like $150 now.

>>10327904
So it's a product for retards?

>>10327813
do these analogue products have shaders? could you use other cores on them?
If it costs less than a MiSTer setup, I don't see how this can get any shit from people on here who aren't just born pissed off

>>10327867
even the name of their company is spelt wrong

>>10327905
They absolutely do understand that. What they don't understand, and where Analogue, MiSTer, and the whole FPGA crowd fails to clarify, is that the cores are not as accurate as they pretend. They rely on FPGA being THEORETICALLY transistor accurate and having that reputation without actually delivering on it.

>>10327882
There are plenty of clones and even official models with inferior compatibility like the genesis 3 or intellivision 2.
Just because it's fpga doesn't automatically mean it won't be inaccurate dogshit, but shills don't want you to think about that

>>10327912
>do these analogue products have shaders?
Typically nothing beyond a basic "we colored half the pixels black" scanline overlay, no.
>could you use other cores on them?
Not without OpenFPGA support, no.

>>10327891
I got a universal snes/n64/gc to hdmi converter that goes to 720p for like 20 bucks lmfao.
Is it worth destroying your case and botching a true HDMI install for 1080p?
I personally don't think so

>>10327919
oh shit I guess they have "Reference quality recreations of specific model CRT’s and PVM’s." for this.
Pretty big if true. I'll still wait and see

>>10327905
>FPGA is hardware emulation, you misinformed retard.
It doesn't have to be. If you have the VHDL files for the chips the difference between the FPGA and the baked silicon are purely a distinction of manufacturing.
Is the 12th gen Intel emulating a Pentium when it runs 32bit code from 1995? It shares absolutely nothing in common with the Pentium, the instruction decoder works entirely differently and decodes to entirely different microcode that executes with an entirely different optimisation and caching algorithm. Ergo it's emulation. But we don't care because the output is the same so we don't bother playing semantic games about how it's "an emulator and not real x86".

>>10327916
>They absolutely do understand that.
>>10327901
>>10327924
People in this very thread don't understand that.

>>10327841
>So what does this do that a N64 with HDMI out doesn't already?
For sure: 4k output, built-in support for wireless controllers, display modes to imitate CRTs and PVMs, compatible with all the different regions cartridge shapes, costs a lot more, takes a long time to be ready to ship, causes many anons to shit themselves with seethe

Probably: comes with some unusual game/s pre-installed, has a smaller form factor, gets jailbroken firmware to play lots of other shit, supports gameshark codes, gets a transparent revision announced in 2025, requires a bunch of firmware updates before cartridges have 100% compatility™


Not interested myself, but the controller might be neat. I'll wait for some guinea pig to run a test on the analog stick first though.

>>10327920
The thing you got likely interprets a 240p s-video signal as 480i and poorly upscales that to 720p, so yes, virtually anything else is better.

>>10327909
I hope you don't order pizza instead of making it yourself. I hope you don't ever take your car to a mechanic instead of fixing it yourself. That would make you a retard.

>>10327926
So it's an expensive N64 with HDMI.

>>10327930
Yes, if you ignore everything else it does.

>>10327929
correct

>>10327929
So this is the N64 equivalent to a sub-par, delivery pizza?
Also, I hope you don't think pizza is is above your skillset. If so, you're really not the best spokesperson they could have sent.

>>10327813
Imagine paying for emulation Lolol
I bet you homos pay for roms, too.

>>10327932
>if you ignore everything else it does
But you didn't say it did anything else. A lot of speculation, but nothing that it DOES.

>>10327926
>8bitdo
dropped

>>10327912
>shaders
the pocket does but only if you run from the cartridge
>other cores
pocket supports other cores but no shaders, analogue didn't add the API for it and forgot to do so for a whole year

>>10327918
It being inaccurate and being emulation are two separate things. Old NOAC clones were inaccurate as shit but they were custom ASICs so they weren't emulators. They were shitty clones. An FPGA is functionally no different than laying silicon. The quality is going to depend on the core but something doesn't become emulation just because it sucks. Yes, a pure dictionary definition of "emulation" makes it ALL emulation, but the word has no value if we use it that way in this context, which is why we don't.

>1. Analogue 3D does not support openFPGA

>>10327927
eh, maybe? Better than not being able to play it at all if you don't have a rca connection on the back of your tv, which new ones generally don't have.
Granted it looks pretty bad but messing with TV settings can get it looking better.

>>10327936
I'm pointing out that paying for convenience is something everyone does and calling someone a retard for not doing a custom mod on an N64, which are getting more expensive by the day, is hypocrite city.

>>10327851
>still radio silence

>>10327952
>17 october 2023
>it's still the 16th
nice manufactured post

>>10327939
An HDMI modded N64 isn't putting out more than 1080p
An HDMI modded N64 needs additional shit to support wireless controllers
An HDMI modded N64 doesn't natively output with display modes imitating CRTs and PVMs
An HDMI modded N64 needs additional mods to be compatible with all the different regions cartridge shapes

>>10327952
>connect to legacy CRT and PVM
I'm interest
Except I already got a mister for that

>>10327857
>>10327863
Their PR team needs to go back to school. This style of advertising only works for Apple products. Is this the same company that said their handheld device isn't meant to be played, but displayed on a shelf?

>>10327956
It's the 17th where that anon is, there are too many commonwealth posters ITT.

>>10327956
Time zones exist

>>10327964
>Their PR team needs to go back to school. This style of advertising only works for Apple products.
lolwat. Everything they have ever made sold out. If there is one nice thing you can say about the company it is that they have a good marketing team.

>>10327950
You compared it to literal slop that costs maybe $15, $20 tops. You then compared it to a necessary expense.
Comparing it to either is blatant false equivalence, and you're probably at least smart enough to know that. Though I can't be sure.

>>10327952
Wait, so it needs an accessory to even connect to a CRT at all?
What the fuck?

>>10327981
The pocket is underpowered and needs a dock that contains proprietary hardware to connect to a tv at all.

The real issue with Analogue products is that there's no reason for them to be separate. Its a waste of an FPGA. The Polymega is a shitty machine but had the right idea. Analogue should have a base unit that can run whatever core and modules that incorporate the various ports to conform to the original hardware.

If this thing costs a penny more than a mister, it's a fucking scam.
https://twitter.com/AzumFpg/status/1695326857208484118

>>10327975
You must live in a shitty area for pizza.

>>10327995
So it's not even worth that much? Damn.

>>10327994
The Mister N64 core is still unusable right?

>>10328002
Looks like it's close. There's even a test build available from yesterday.
So as of now, it's more usable than the Analogue 3D.

>>10328009
>Looks like it's close.
I wouldn't be so sure. The Saturn core was as good as the current N64 core is now like a year ago. The fine tuning seems to take longer than getting things kind of working.

I think the MiSTer N64 core literally is emulation though because the DE10 can't handle the whole system so the CPU is being used to aid it.

>3. Analogue 3D is not designed using software emulation. It is designed using a specialty hardware chip called an FPGA, which operates on a transistor level implementation of its functionality.

they said it

>>10328025
So it is emulation?

>>10328029
they said it's a transistor-level implementation, which meets even the most autistic standard of "not emulation" but is also almost certainly not true. hope somebody gets their ass for saying this, have they said that in marketing materials for other units?

>>10328025
They are absolutely lying if they expect us to believe they're using a transistor accurate N64 core. That would have been news.

>>10328024
No, they are not including the whole CPU, part of which was unused. It remains uncertain if that means it will work or not. If they ever make a CV1000 core they will probably do what you described because of how weird the hardware for that is since it uses an FPGA for the video chip. The only current core that doesn't include part of the whole CPU is the 2x PSX core since the DE10 nano is too small to run 2 playstations at once.

>>10328029
Always has been.
If the results are mostly equivalent to actual hardware, who the fuck is autistic enough to care?

>>10328035
>hope somebody gets their ass for saying this
There is no legal precedent for describing an FPGA. I get it, you hate Analogue but they aren't doing anything illegal and their target market don't care.

>>10328035
It's bullshit. They're saying "transistor-level" to obfuscate. "We said its transistor level, didn't say nothin' about those transistors being accurate."

>>10327961
>I already got a mister
where do i buy cart readers? that's really the only appeal of an Analogue console...

>>10328047
"transistor-level implementation" is a trivially falsifiable statement even if it were an ASIC

>>10328047
Its used car salesman shenanigans. No, its not illegal but its shitty.

>>10328050
if that's the ONLY appeal, why not just use the original?

>>10328051
They'll argue they DID implement transistors, just not where they're supposed to be.

>>10328052
>No, its not illegal but its shitty.
I agree but find it funny instead of enraging.

>>10328057
you're right, I apologize for being wrong on the internet

>>10327974
Go back to school or buy an ad.

>>10328063
This nigga mad

>>10328053
>why not just use the original?
i've already re-capped my SHVC-CPU-01 model SNES and a/c adapter, but at some point it just becomes way easier to maintain a cart than the damn console.

obviously some company is producing the cart readers so they're probably pretty cheap. i suppose i could just build my own using salvaged slots from dead consoles...

>>10328074
First, good on you for recapping. Second, snes is like the easiest console to recap, there’s barely anything to it.

>>10328050
the MISTeR project is not meant to run cartridges

>>10327813
ANALog won't be getting my money, I already have an N64 with an HDMI converter($20) & it works fine. Not perfect, but better than EON's price gouging hdmi converter.

>>10328137
>the MISTeR project is not meant to run cartridges
what prevents this?

>>10328156
the mister leaders

>>10328158
They don't though. The whole thing is open source and you are free to make a fork that supports cartridge loaders.

>>10328169
kek at pic but my SWC DX2 does have a 3.5" floppy

>>10328169
>you are free to make a fork that supports cartridge loaders
i'm also a retard that can barely solder tho

>>10327915
>complains about UK spelling
>spelt
what did he mean by this

>>10327994
Almost all of their previous products have been less than the $500 needed to put together a MiSTer.
>>10328052
Welcome to capitalism

>>10328039
They want people to think since fpga's CAN replicate at the transistor level, that MUST be what they're doing. All their marketing hints at their systems being perfect replicas without actually saying it, cause that would be false advertising.

>>10327813
So how much are they gonna sell this for? $500? This would have been tempting a decade ago but modern software emulators like Ares with ParaLLEl are just so good these days I don't care

gentle reminder that the reason people buy this stuff is because they want to play the game, not play the emulator. the steam deck can emulate switch but default emudeck settings stutter during the majora intro. nesticle is a quarter century old and software emulation is still garbage

>>10328184
>Almost all of their previous products have been less than the $500 needed to put together a MiSTer.
A basic Mister set up is literally half that. The N64 requires a significantly bigger FPGA than anything else they put out. The duo was $250 with shipping being another $50 minimum. My bet is their N64 will end up costing around $500.

>>10328224
I had the Genesis clone from them a few years and it was under $300 shipped, Pocket shipping wasn't $50 either. And you cannot put together a MiSTer for $250, and even if you could it's still a shitty circuit board sandwich that will die if you have carpets

>>10328229
lol

>>10328209

>>10328229
Fpga prices went up a lot during corona and never came back down. The pocket shipping prices were outrageous.

>>10328239
n64 emulation is good if you don't use the same copy of PJ64 that you installed 15 years ago dumbass

>>10328247
I bought my Pocket during corona, my understanding was shipping prices varied quite a bit, I got lucky I guess.
>>10328249
I'm just teasing you goofball

So is the lack of stock primarily a FOMO thing, or are the owners behind this company absolutely terrified to keep any stock on hand? They have collector fags wrapped around their fingers already, why worry you might get stuck with a few units in stock for a few months. Guarantee they sell out within 5 minutes, ship 50 units by the end of 2024, and give everyone else a vague "you'll get your unit in 2025" like usual.

>>10328281
I don't think they can get the components they need at scale, they're small potatoes compared to industrial customers, etc.

>The relatively rare 64DD add-on, exclusive to Japan, will not natively connect to Analogue 3D. Taber suggests that “community developed” connection options will work instead.

>>10328284
64dd is the worst add on ever made for a console, no games worth playing.

>>10327813
can somebody describe to me who the target audience is for this? collectors that won't remove it from the box? people who want to replace their n64 or purchase this instead of an n64?

>>10328229
A mister setup with usb/bluetooth/wifi is 270 shipped from Terasic.
Then it’s another 75 shipped for the memory expansion you NEED for n64.
So we’re looking at 350ish for something comparable to what Analogue is offering albeit with no i/o expansion board or case.

Trash, already got my MisTer. Just beat Banjo-Tooie on it. Feels good.

I might buy the 8bitdo controller though, it looks neat.

>>10328290
F-Zero X Expansion Kit is the real shit

>>10328292
Yeah but then you can also play PSX, Saturn, NeoGeo and anything bellow that on the MiSTer. It's also an open platform and you can pretty much do anything you want with it. The value is just unbeatable.

>>10328292
>albeit with no i/o expansion board or case

>>10328296
>expansion
lmao

>>10328293
>8bitdo
HOW THE FUCK DO I PRONOUNCE THIS WORD?

>>10328306
atebitdough

>>10328209
>Ares with ParaLLEl
Still has timing issues and doesn't run games like real hardware at all.

There's still no timing accurate option for N64 games besides an actual N64. Maybe the MiSTer can get there - the developer said he's going to buy an HDMI modded N64 precisely to research accurate timings, since software emulators can't do it.

Hopefully once the MiSTer has that it can get documented on N64brew and the benefits can trickle down to software emulation as well.

>>10327939
What schizophrenia is this? He literally separated his post into confirmed features and speculation. Or are you dyslexic?

>>10327926

>>10328320
let me guess. the Z is not a trigger and instead just another button.

>>10328330
It's probably going to be ZL/ZR like all the other modern N64 controllers

>>10328304
Sounds like someone has never played F-Zero X with the Expansion Kit.

>>10328338
>expansion
>not a game
>always f-queero never anything else
shut up already it's boring.

>>10328314
>doesn't run games like real hardware at all
Can you prove that?

>>10328358
https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Nintendo_64_emulators#Timing_issues

>>10327813
Neat but a stock N64 plugged into a retrotink 2x via svideo is literally all I need for N64 games.
That plus an everdrive and one of those raphnet gcn to N64 controllers and I'm golden. You can't have more fun than that.
The only thing this would've been cool for is competition to the mister. Having a powerful fpga platform that can do n64 in addition to psx and Saturn would've made this a really good product, but no openfpga ootb support really limits it.
Personally I'm waiting for the retro gaming market's answer to the switch. I would pay a thousand dollars for a switch like fpga that can be played both portably and docked with seamless switching between the two.

>>10328156
Sorg's autism. He primarily made it to run eurojank in HDMI

It is emulation by the way

>>10328460
I don't understand why everyone hates the n64 controller so much. It's just part of the experience. I still prefer the n64 stick over the new styled gamecube ones

>>10327884
He was being sarcastic, autist

>>10328559
I personally agree but the argument that the D-pad is rarely utilised so can be safely moved over is a fair one as well.
Games almost went out of their way to not use it, like Star Fox 64 (/Lylat Wars, the better name) where you can't even navigate the menus using the D-pad.

>>10328559
I used to love the N64 controller up until late adolescence but going back to it these days is rough. I still like it, but my hands are larger now and it's just not comfortable.

>>10328559
The controller could stand to be just a touch wider, the middle handle a bit longer/larger, the stick being more soft and grippier than made of hard plastic and not kill itself being ground into powder. Besides the analog movement, the controller is super dated.

>>10328567
Some games also used the L button like in Zelda where you can turn off the map, and it's just not possible to access it while griping the analog handle

>>10328460
Looks like one of those 8bitdo controllers minus the second analogue stick

>>10328596
Which kind of sucks, their ultimate controllers are not very comfortable

>>10328371
This is a wiki link. There's not even any references for this section.

>>10328460
>What if Brawler 64, but slightly less shit, but still shit

>>10328603
It's a well known fact that timing issues are a problem in N64 emulation. Sorry if that challenges your world views. It takes literal minutes to go on github and check the issue tracker.

https://github.com/ares-emulator/ares/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Acore-n64

https://github.com/ares-emulator/ares/issues/451

https://github.com/simple64/simple64/issues/365

Another thing overlooked here is that quite a few N64 games used images/3D renders (in the case of GoldenEye for one) to display the in-game control layouts.
It's quite confusing to have a game with an image stating which button does what on a controller which isn't even in your hands. Emulators can alleviate this with texture replacement but there is no chance this system supports that.
I appreciate it isn't something any of us would really need but it is a part of the general experience which is permanently chipped away.

>>10327881
They still rely on software emulation, just at a lower level. It is emulation in the strictest sense of the word, as it's not running on original silicon. Even MISTer fags don't get hung up about this, it's just analog's marketing.

>>10328621
>They still rely on software emulation, just at a lower level.
That's not true. It's hardware emulation. It's much different from software emulation. It's still emulation, though, but there's clear advantages, and also some shortcomes, when compared to a software approach.

FPGA isn't emulation just like macs aren't personal computers.

>It's emulation!
>No--it's not!
>Me just sitting here thinking why pointlessly bickering about it when normalfags are the ones buying this junk
I hate marketing threads...

>>10328630
As long as you can confuse your ignorance and stupidity with being above it all, we're all good, holmes.

>>10328630
Normalfags aren't spending $250-$300 on FPGA clones. Those people are happy enough with a Raspberry Pi or RetroArch.

This thing will be $900 minimum. Even enthusiasts will be hit with sticker shock

>>10328683
$350 is the most they could possibly ask without failing the laugh test. They did sell their Turbo Duo clone for $250 and that has a disc drive.

>>10328630
this anon knows what's up

>>10328690
>>10328683

I expect at least $600. And I'm being optmistic.

Just the cost of an FPGA chip powerful enough to output 4k is just going to push this to $500 minimum. Look at the retrochink 4k dude asking people to reserve at least $1000 lol

>>10328690
>$350 is the most they could possibly ask without failing the laugh test.
They don't care. They sell them in artificially-limited numbers to create FOMO and will sell them even at $699.

>>10328578
>>10328583
someone should make a duke variant lol

>>10327926
>>10328320
>>10328460
It looks like 8BitDo due to those menu buttons in the middle... I hope they release the controller at their website separately instead of having it only included with Analogue's N64, because I love the N64's face button layout and having it on a more traditional controller is ideal for me... I mean, it's the only controller I know of that manages to mix both the diamond design and arcade 6-buttons in a seamless combined effort, it's actually perfect.

>>10328695
Certainly won't affect sales unfortunately but that price would be ridiculous when that's around the same price that's being touted for the MARS, which is basically a souped up MiSTer and will support all the same cores day 1 plus upcoming cores that won't fit on MiSTer (NAOMI, MK etc.)

>>10328724
Stop hyping FPGA NAOMI, there's nothing done yet to advertise it.

>>10327816
yeah, that aspect of their marketing alone would be enough to make me dislike the company. but they're also trash in many other ways regardless.

>>10328724
>features
>3d rendering
just about as real as the imaginary girlfriend anon has in the doom thread

>>10328723
they will have it separately for sure.
also the brawler64 already exists

>>10328291

Rich people who want to play N64 on modern TVs without figuring out which adapter they should purchase or which modded console they should buy or which mod they need to buy for their existing console and then getting said mod installed.

There is an audience for sure, just not sure how big it is.

>>10328735
They even concede it IS emulation at the bottom of the page, too.
>Analogue 3D is not designed using software emulation. It is designed using a specialty hardware chip called an FPGA, which operates on a transistor level implementation of its functionality.
They change the font so you can barely read it. Shady company.

>>10328749
Brawler is shit. Build quality sucks ass.

>>10328724
Damn that's a shitty logo

>>10328724
That looks way more worth buying than a MiSTer!

>>10328743
Every image of Analogue's products on their website are renderings, even after the actual product's proper release.

>>10328827
I feel bad for anyone duped into buying a mister. It reminds me of infomercial products that promise the world but are overpriced junk.

>>10328724
>>10328826
I thought it was A.I. generated gobbledygook at first glance.

>>10327867
N64 in 4K resolution is the last thing I'll ever want.

$1500 base price (controller, video cable, power adapter, controller cable, controller port, cartridge slot, video output port, and power button sold separately)
>>10327867
what's the point? these kinds of graphics look like shit when you upscale the internal resolution, especially if there's pre-rendered backgrounds or sprites thrown in the mix

>>10328826
Yeah, it's trash. They should change it.

>>10328460
How are you supposed to play sin and punishment on that?

>>10327816
>>10327813
The complete verilog of the N64 leaked in the 90's. This thing is going to be 100% accurate. Of course, they'll never admit to using the leaked hdl.

>>10329006
None of their systems have been 100% accurate.

>>10329008
None of the other systems have had complete verilog leak.

>>10327813
They should make more Pockets instead of shitty MiSTer core consoles. Shitty artificial pricing company.

>>10329006
Why don't emulatorfags use it to make good emulators? Why are they so shit still?

>>10327926
It's just an 8shitpoo Ultimate with two buttons instead of a right stick

>>10329006
Where can I get it?

>>10327816
Honestly I'm surprised nobody has tried to sue them for false advertising

>>10327813
Why would anyone buy this. Just buy a Mister.

>>10329071
Search for the oman archive. Leaked by an SGI employee back in the 90's and kept private among N64 emudevs until 2012.

The full iQue player version of the N64 leaked in 2020. It's the unsorted.7z file here
https://myrient.erista.me/files/No-Intro/Nintendo%20-%20Misc/

>>10328882
Indeed. It's like if they're gonna charge $600 for it, I may as well build a gaming PC instead.

>>10329086
No thanks mister. I'd rather emulate than waste $600 dollars.

how awful will the inevitable 8shitdo n64 controllers be

>>10329180
You don't need to spend that much. Technically you only need the de-10 nano which is 260 incl. shipping (normal price). Even if go the full stack it shouldn't cost you more than ~450.

>>10329214
Looks like it'll just be a ultimate controller with stripped down functionality so it depends on what you think of those.

>>10327867
>100% compatibility
I will laugh my ass off when this piece of shit still can't play Knife Edge

>>10328749
these things fucking SUCK
i hate Retro Fighters
the Retro-Bit Tribute 64 isn't gonna blow your mind but its way the fuck better than the Brawler 64 for about the same price

>>10327813
Will it have netplay?

>>10327994
>being a misterfag

>>10328951
The point of going to 4k is the same reason why they chose a high resolution display for the Pocket. With the higher image resolution you can do better tricks like subpixel simulation.

That's why shaders like CRT-royale work better at higher resolution because it allows for better phosphor emulation.

>>10327813
It feels weird defending Nintendo but I am really starting to feel like NSO is a better option than these Analogue products. You pay one time for a console and then subscribe to the service and get unlimited games on any platform for a year, vs. buy one console, then another, then another, all at $199 minimum, just to play old Nintendo games. It feels like some strange bizarro reality where Nintendo are actually the good guys for once and these other companies like Analogue, Polymega, and various resellers are the shady ones. What gives, Analogue? Why not just one console for every game, like MiSTer?

>>10329325
>AIslop
Opinion discarded.

>>10329325
One company being less jewy than another does not suddenly make that company the "good guys". Nintendo repeatedly releases the same forty year old games over and over and never ties them to your account, meaning if you want to play it on your new system, you have to buy it all over again. If you're going to emulate, just emulate. Don't pay for that shit.

>>10329325
I remember in art class drawing the "ultimate" Nintendo console that had slots games and controllers for literally every console and handheld to that date. That shit isn't reality though.

>>10329325
You're a goddamn fool. The service they provide is borderline useless between the drip-feed of games and the fact a lot of them perform very poorly on the console.
Just emulate you goddamn donut.

>>10329325
Analog money-hatted FPGA development back when it was the nichest of niche hobbies. They are somewhat responsible for Mister going from an interesting box of tricks to what it is today by attracting new developers to the FPGA scene. Ironically what Intel wanted to happen by subsiding the DE-10 nano but failed happened after a company made a chunk of cash selling clone consoles to millennials with disposable income.

>>10329324
>That's why shaders like CRT-royale work better at higher resolution because it allows for better phosphor emulation.
I genuinely don't understand why someone would buy this overpriced thing and use CRT shaders instead of just getting a real N64, a flashcart and a CRT for like half the price

>>10327813
>It's just the recently released MiSTER core but sold at a massive boutique premium
Analogue was cool at first and their NES and SNES clones were actually worth buying, but after that it just seems like they dropped off on the quality while jacking up prices for everything.

Only thing worth looking forward to here is the inevitable 8bitdo N64 controller, that'll be the only thing worth looking at.

>>10327926
Hopefully that 8bitdo controller has actual good Z triggers and not that crap Retrofighters refuses to fix. Brawler64 Z triggers are raised at too high of an angle to comfortably hold or press constantly and, despite all of their subsequent controllers for other consoles having the triggers corrected for this issue, Retrofighters refuses to go back and fix their shit.

>>10329405
This sounds accurate. Kind of feels like a waste of tech sadly

>>10329349
>>10329371
I will admit (afaik) NSO's emulation is still not very good even compared to older emulators used by Nintendo. But if people want to pay to play games I feel like the Switch has more to offer than Analogue or Polymega for around the same price, sometimes cheaper. Never mind that the Everdrive 64 costs -another- $199.

Not saying I agree with Nintendo's model or people who pay for it, just something to think about

>>10327942
Their n64 replacement stick is supposedly pretty good.

>>10328749
That's a piece of shit

>>10329289
You know what really sucks? Retro-Bit actually did have a really good clone controller that used 8bitdo's wireless kit in it. They don't make them anymore because 8bitdo has been doing what they can to stay away from straight up copyright infringement territory after what happened with the SN30 line.

This thread reminds me of every time an old game gets ported to modern platforms and retards argue whether it is emulation or an actual source port, even though they would never be able to tell the difference between either of them if they are done well. Pointless bickering between fags.

>>10329489
It will get worse once the price is announced and they start explaining why the price is wrong because of the same arguments.

>>10329489
This post reminds me of every time some braindead tourist wanders into /vr/ because their favorite youtuber brainwashed them into spending a bunch of money on some over priced FOTM retro trash, even though they'll never go deeper into the retro libraries they spent a fortune on than Mario or Zelda. A pointless masturbatory post of someone who thinks he's better than everyone else yet has nothing meaningful to contribute.

>>10327813
Can't wait! Now I can pay $500 to play those three good games on the system that I've been playing for the last 30 years.

>>10328603
Just reminding you that you got btfo here: >>10328612
That is all.

>>10329591
i mean, you'd have to be an idiot to preorder this thing sight unseen before any of the pipe hitting poindexters have kicked the tires on the emulation accuracy front

Yes buy more slop continue to inflate the already horrible retro gaming economy. Pay out the ass to play 30yo games. Yes, yes good, destroy the retro gaming community with greed yes, who even plays games?? Just put expensive products on the shelf and stare at them while you live your life online bickering and feeling miserable instead of enjoying playing and talking about your favorite games.

>>10329735
Explain how the influx of new products will inflate the price of old products?

>>10329741
not that anon but analogue stuff is marketed as being for playing original cartridges (with a wink and a nod towards their jailbreak solutions, of course), so it will make the original cartridges get scooped up, and the people buying it are generally
A) big time collectors
B) people fomoing into retro shit because they fell into the retro youtube rabbit hole
either way, whereas this hobby used to be about playing games, trading games, sharing games, enjoying games - now it's about hoarding the most coveted titles and trying bilk old ladies who are selling their son's collection justs to make their mortgage for the month
and every time there's a massive influx of trend chasing buyfags the retro community gets ever so slightly shittier - if you haven't been around long enough to notice, stick around and you will.

going one step further, if I pretend like I don't know how the whole modern retro economy works, I'd ask - Who the hell is this product for? If you love the N64 enough to spend hundreds of dollars on a clone console... don't you already have an N64? Wouldn't you prefer a real N64? If you want to play on your big screen TV, okay... NSO is probably way more your speed. If you're enticed by the idea of bespoke CRT shaders... shouldn't you just track down a CRT? It makes no sense to me, until I go, "Oh, right", it's all the people who's idea of participating in a hobby is to just buy the latest "thing" so they can feel like they're sitting at the cool kids table for a moment.

>>10327841
fleece you out of even more money, let you look like 30% more of a hipster

'ate retroarch
'ate console mods
'ate flashcarts
'ate coomlectors
'ate anal log

luv me MiSTer
simple as

analogue products looks so disgusting

what kind of s.oy boy asshole wants their retro machine to look like a soulless Apple product

>>10329825
>'ate coomlectors
Why? And enjoy your input lag.

>>10329413
"those things are all old and out of production, this is futureproof" they'll say until it ends production after a few years and then would-be purchasers go back to buying the original console

>>10329825
MiSTer shill detected

>>10329776
>if you haven't been around long enough to notice, stick around and you will.
I have my everdrives, ODDEs Analogue Pocket and a Mister hooked up to an arcade CRT. This is the best time to be into retro games. It is a bad time to collect rotten plastic I guess.

>>10329840
With snac and crt there is no input lag mate. Even on my basic bitch ips monitor I can run vsync_adjust=2, which adds only 4 scanlines of latency. I 'ate coomlecting because it's a waste of time and money. Enjoy your piles of discoloured plastic and scratched up discs.

>>10329825
How much fiddling is required to get a beta core to output on a CRT? Is it actually playable yet or just good for taking screenshots?

>>10329860
It works for me, but not every CRT likes it since the analog out isn't officially supported yet, so YMMV.

>>10329878
>It works for me, but
Every MiSTeR fag, ever.
And of course it doesn't work properly for even him but still, all that sunk cost and you too would need to act like it's perfect.

>>10329884
It's a beta core, so yeah, it's not perfect yet. I bought mine when n64 was seen as impossible, so this is all just gravy to me. The value prospect was already well worth it beforehand.

>>10329825
It's funny how the second MiSTer starts making N64 progress, Analogue has to try and jump the gun and shit out a new system.

I'm guessing their plan was to skip PS1 and Saturn because both those cores were making progress on MiSTer, and go right to N64 which was said to be "impossible". I'm guessing this console is about 3 years out anyway, given the Analogue Duo was announced in 2020 and it's now 2023 and they're still claiming "end of the year, bro" just like all the other shit they can't be bothered doing.

>>10329919
They are competing with mini consoles more than the Mister. The PSX already has a Mini and the Saturn was far less popular.

>>10327902
Only if you admit that FPGA is emulation

>>10329919
They're both emulation in my book.

>>10329971
meant for >>10329959

>>10329919
Niggas still ain't got Neo Geo Pocket and Lynx on their Pocket which they were touting since its original announcement.

>>10329930
Nah, mini consoles are a completely different market.

>>10330014
The biggest shock to me is that you still can't use the filters on cores. It's literally the only point of using a screen with such a high PPI, and you can't even fucking do it. Just mindblowing.

>>10327813
oh boy, time to fleece more boomers
t. John Analog

>>10328984
You're supposed to play Mario and Zelda on it.

>>10329285
IT CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT

>>10329859
>I'm not capable of repairing and maintaining things, so that means no one else is.

>>10329884
i bought a mister soley because of the salt mines
was pleasantly surpised
happy with it

picking up the analogue system too
even though i dont have any of their other systems
and have 2 n64 as redundant hardware

if they let me order two i can flip one and its like it was free kek

>>10330105
I was too harsh, I don't care if you enjoy collecting stuff. I've held onto my old systems/games, so I get it. There is something about the "feel" of plugging in an actual cartridge/disc and booting it up. Ultimately though, I just want to play shit, and Mister makes that a lot cheaper and easier than buying consoles, pcbs, games/flashcarts etc. The feeling of og hardware can't compete with that sheer convenience, imo.

>>10330195
>There is something about the "feel" of plugging in an actual cartridge/disc and booting it up.
This is not true for me. I prefer never needing to search through a mountain of games because they are all on a flashcart.

>>10330195
>There is something about the "feel" of plugging in an actual cartridge/disc and booting it up
This kind of shit has always read like boomers fetishizing the act of putting a vinyl record on.

I can understand liking the manuals, that's about it. Fuck swapping discs, fuck swapping carts, and fuck all the issues that come with both.

>>10330216
For software, manuals are the most important part.
For other stuff, it just comes down to whether you like hardware or not.
I don't fetishize the act of putting a disc in a drive, but I do think all the electrical and mechanical processes that make it work are neat.
If you just care about software, that's fine, but I like the hardware too.Fixing it and maintaining it has become a large part of my enjoyment of this hobby.

>>10330240
>Fixing it and maintaining it has become a large part of my enjoyment of this hobby.
I enjoyed softmodding non retro consoles but hate the necessity of repairs and hardware mods.

>>10330240
>but I do think all the electrical and mechanical processes that make it work are neat.
I just think all that stuff gets in the way. I've got no problem with maintaining things that can't be emulated. Opened up my NGCD pads the other day to fix the sticks on them.

But there's no value behind well emulated systems. I could plug in my MD, or I could just run the games off a MiSTer with more options. Want to swap controllers to something USB? No problem. Want to play with the Justifier? No problem. It's just a better experience, and I don't have to have half a dozen systems plugged in at once to swap between them.

Mechanical drives are hell. I'm glad I can replace all of them with more modern solid state options that rarely fail, and thanks to emulation improvements I don't have to worry about sourcing long out of production parts in the future to fix them.

>>10330258
It can get in the way of enjoying the software, yeah. No argument there.
But I am starting to enjoying tinkering with the hardware as much as just playing the games, and playing a game on a piece of hardware that you've revived or otherwise put a lot of time into is a really great feeling.
Basically I also don't understand people who want the hardware, but are technically illiterate and uncurious and pay other people to fix or mod their shit, or pay out the ass upfront for tested or modded stuff.

>>10328180
Spelt is also correct you idiot. Are you American?

>>10329884
Indeed. I'm certainly glad I didn't waste $600 on a MiSTer. Instead I own multiple consoles & games that I collected over the years and game on that instead.

>>10329919
Maybe ANALog just like doing cartridge based systems. I haven't seen them attempt doing a CD based system. Not sure it would be worth it to them since there's Sega CD, Saturn, PS1, & Dreamcast. Their best bet is to do a multi-CD game system, but even that requires focus on cartridge slots, controller ports & other functions/features.

>>10330397
>I haven't seen them attempt doing a CD based system
the anal log duo has a cd drive.

>>10330397
>>Maybe ANALog just like doing cartridge based systems. I haven't seen them attempt doing a CD based system.
Kill yourself, retard. They've been working on the anal log duo for THREE years, and it still isn't out.

Why would they do a multi system? Their consoomers have already shown they're perfectly happy to pay 300 bucks per system, they're not going to stop that because of a 2 dollar CD drive.

>>10330397
>Indeed. I'm certainly glad I didn't waste $600 on a MiSTer
Then spend half that to get a MiSter like everyone else.

>>10327813
Retro games belong on CRTs with original hardware only

>>10327813
Day-One preorder for me. Hell. Yes.

>>10328029
Yes. People who claim FPGA isn't emulation, is lying.

>>10330414
The whole point of FPGAs in the first place was to do multiple systems on the same chip. It was only when analog got involved that they decided that the point of FPGAs was "perfect replication", which they've never actually achieved.

>>10330618
True, but baremetal fpga emulation is pretty different to the software emulation consumers are familiar with.

>>10330618
Define "emulation" without accidentally including a bunch of official console revisions.

People need to get it out of their heads that FPGA is a video game thing. These are primarily used to prototype ASICs. You'd test your HDL on an FPGA and when it was good and ready you'd send that exact same HDL to a factory to fabricate 10,000 ASICs. Using the FPGA directly doesn't change anything about what it is.

>>10330873
>Define "emulation"
emulation (noun) - an effort to recreate

>>10330818
No. The whole point of FPGAs in the first place was to be able to easily program gate arrays. Poorfags using them to emulate toys is a relatively recent nice application for that.

>>10330905
Less recent than you might think.
The C=One was created in 2002, which had a somewhat similar idea as the MiSTer.
FPGAs themselves are much older of course.

>>10329536
>This post reminds me of every time some braindead tourist wanders into /vr/ because their favorite youtuber brainwashed them into spending a bunch of money on some over priced FOTM retro trash, even though they'll never go deeper into the retro libraries they spent a fortune on than Mario or Zelda.
False
>A pointless masturbatory post of someone who thinks he's better than everyone else yet has nothing meaningful to contribute.
True
seethe faggot

>>10327813
it's going to be like 400 dollars isn't it? why would anyone spend almost half a grand for a n64 clone?
>muh fpga
why can't they make it 150 dollars or less? buying a real n64 is a better deal

>>10327853
>Dumb ass digging deeper.
not him, and not arguing.
please explain what the difference is?

>>10330950
$500 bare minimum.

>>10330950
If there's something you haven't figured out by now, I'm gonna help you:
Nintendo guys are THE biggest consoomers. They can have a decked out $600-700 HDMI n64 with a $200 flash cart, DD and a legit copy of the f-zero expansion kit and mouse and still buy this day 0.

That's why there's 5 fucking Gamecube SD loaders. They just keep buying this shit.

>>10330898
Thank you, Webster. But that's so broad everything except the first model or revision of a thing then becomes emulation. The Genesis Model 2 is a Genesis emulator.

>>10330931
>Less recent than you might think.
Definitely not
>The C=One was created in 2002, which had a somewhat similar idea as the MiSTer.
And it cost $300. You could get an actual C64 for $10 back then. I do not think "poorfag" means what you think it means.
Even when the c-one was basically commercialized and massproduced as the DTV it was still more expensive than an actual C64. It was well received because it was easy to use gadget, not because poorfags like to pay more for things.
FPGAs didn't become a poorfag thing until the cost of original hardware and the functionality of FPGA based devices had both increased to levels that there was a substantial cost savings in going with an FPGA solution. Much later than 2002.
>FPGAs themselves are much older of course.
The literal definition of "relatively"

>>10331251
He wasn't arguing FPGAs are a poorfag way to play games but a poorfag way to use FPGAs.

>>10330859
Agreed.

>>10330873
The thing is that people are calling FPGA "Hardware EMULATION". So basically it is emulating what original consoles are able to do(play plug in cartridges, use controller ports, use game genie cartridges, use memory cards/cartridges, etc). It fails to be hardware emulation when you're not able to use cartridges & CD(IE: The MiSTer). Of course they argue that the micro SD card acts as a cartridge/CD because it contains the rom files, but then so does my 2TB hard drive on my PC. They relabled the console emulators as "cores", it's like renaming my bicycle as a Kawaski Ninja motorcycle just because I added a motor & a shell mimicking the Kawasaki Ninja on my bike.

>>10331175
This. They're all manchildren, it's akin to the Disney effect. Honestly, when a guy says he's a fan of Nintendo to me, I instantly assume he's an absolute retard with no personality. Hasn't failed me yet, I legitimately think there's something wrong with them. I can get on with Mega Drive kids, Amiga kids, even the guys whose first console was a PS2. Nintendo? They're all weirdos, and not the fun kind where they're just obsessive about Bubsy 3D, the pathetic kind that seems mentally trapped in their childhood and have no real hobbies but buying all the stuff they thought they deserved as children. They'll be paying for roms until they die.

>>10330950
According to RetroRGB, a project like the MARS/Multi Arcade & Retro System (essentially a more powerful MiSTer) will cost around $700 on release, and that's another FPGA device that can output up to 4k. We'll be lucky if $400 is the asking price, let alone $300.
As for why Analogue doesn't want to make cheaper, more affordable consoles, why bother? They can profit hugely off of any rich shmuck that wants to play his N64 games upscaled from 240p to 4k, even if they use the device and then never touch it again outside of posting screenshots of title screens on reddit. Yeah, buying a real N64 is a better deal if you can find one cheap at a thrift store, alongside grabbing a CRT ideally. Or you can just emulate on your PC or any chinkheld/android tablet. But this option is for those that want to go above and beyond.

>>10331197
Whoops, looks like you broke your one and only stipulation.
>>10330873
>without accidentally including a bunch of official console revisions

>>10331605
Did you legitimately misread? Because what you said makes no sense.

Read my original post:
>>10330873

You're the one who broke the stipulation.

>>10331302
lolwut? Do you imagine poorfags get a discount on FPGAs because they're only going to use them to play games or something? I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say.

>>10331626
Your stipulation was not to include official console revisions. You specifically used the Mega Drive Model 2 as an example of an emulator in your own post.
You're really not very smart.

>>10331975
He was leading your logic/definition to it's extreme conclusion. It's called reductio ad absurdum. He's not actually arguing the model 2 is an emulator dumbass. Read it in context.

>>10327813
Really?
I have no plans to buy one when I can rely on emulation to do the same thing

>>10329825
Giga based

>>10332012
>I used a logical fallacy and in doing so broke my own rule b-but I only did it to mock you so I'm actually really smart actually!
Retard. Don't bother replying.

>>10331197
The Genesis Model 2 isn't trying to recreate the original Genesis though. It was a console revision, and like any revision, it's made to cut costs. There was no attempt from Sega to reverse engineer and recreate anything

>>10332209
I'm not even that anon you just replied to. More than one person can see you're confused.

Me: "Define emulation in a way that doesn't incorporate console revisions."

You: (provides definition that incorporates console revisions.)

Me: "That definition means the Genesis 2 is an emulator."

Do you see now?

>>10332215
Every revision has to make sure it doesn't break software compatibility. Sometimes they even fail at that. Anytime you're using new parts in place of old ones you can run into this issue. The SNES 1-chip is even more extreme. Reverse engineering doesn't seem to matter to the people arguing that FPGA is emulation because theoretically you could use the original Verilog straight from the source. Anon here says that supposedly happened >>10329006

It's a philosophical argument, sure, but if someone decaps all the chips on an NES, scans them with an electron microscope, and writes Verilog that is identical to the original they're not "emulating" an NES. They literally have just built an NES with different parts, exactly what happens for console revisions. The reason software emulators were called emulators to begin with is because it was simulating the hardware in software. Literally "emulating" the functionality without needing the bare metal circuitry. Once you return to bare metal and start laying silicon you've stepped out of the world of emulation. "Cloning" is the traditional name. We used to make this distinction all the time. Nobody called those cheap Sega Firecore clones "emulators."

>>10332216
What I see is reddit spacing and the most blatant example of not understanding quotes on message boards possibly ever.

>>10331370
Okay, you're right. FPGA certainly fits under emulation. But in hardware, right? Whereas the MiSTer is software emulation via using what they call "cores", right? Because the "cores" is just another name for "emulators", correct?

>>10332248
the mister is fpga as well, the cores are just different sets of instructions. that's the point of using an fpga in the first place, it can be reprogrammed to suit different applications.
it's still hardware emulation

>>10331467
Thought I was the only one who's weirded out by Nintendo fans. They don't seem like grown adults to me. Plus what bothers me about them is how they become loud and unhinged over stuff that Nintendo announces.

>>10332248
Exactly. Since the MiSTer doesn't function like a regular FPGA clone console. The MiSTer is more like an underpowered miniature PC with pre-installed emulators. Sure it's "FPGA" due to the FPGA board being installed, but it's running exactly like a console mini & less like an actual console due to the lack of certain features.

>>10330195
>a lot cheaper and easier than buying consoles, pcbs, games/flashcarts etc
Why do you think everyone must own every video game in existence to enjoy retro gaming? Theres 5000 versions of Street Fighter yet if you look at this board a chunk of hipsters are happy with just 3rd Strike.

>>10329102
>kept private among N64 emudevs until 2012.
Hoarder fags must get the rope

>>10332248
> Whereas the MiSTer is software emulation via using what they call "cores", right?
Wrong.

Bing bing wahooooooooo!

>>10332289
I don't, it's just nice to have options. If I want to check out a cool game I've heard about, I don't have to hunt down physical copies of the game/system just to play it. Mister makes the process of digging deeper into a system's library easier and more enjoyable for me. If having a smaller, curated physical collection is more fun for you, then more power to you. Having a small collection of games you really love is definitely better than hoarding masses of games you barely touch.

>>10332286
Dumbest retard post I've ever read on this site

>>10332216
Different anon.
Actual hardware: a collection of hardware that execute software with a specific instruction set.
Hardware revision: hardware similar enough to original hardware that it can execute the same code in a similar way, but often with small incompatibilities or differences.
Software emulation: a layer of translation provided by the emulator that reads the rom data and executes it to the best of its ability with modern hardware instructions.
Hardware emulation: reprogramming the hardware with artificial limitations in an attempt to recreate the environment of a different machine. This attempts to bypass needing a translation of each instruction.

N64 has less than five good games who cares

Also have fun waiting a year plus for your order to fulfill while shill youtubers get their copy for free instantly

>>10327813
This is perfect for me. I've been begging for almost 5 years now to find someone that could help with the UltraHDMI mod, but no one is able to do such skilled work. I was willing to go into some debt to enjoy the deblurred N64 games, but it was too challenging to synergize acquiring the materials and the professionals capable, the timing and logistics was just too much. So I am glad Analogue has this in the pipeline. It is a shame I did not win the last few Powerball drawings, between this, Bomb Rush, and the Tink4k, I have no idea how to raise the capital needed in time.

I'm trying to understand this "hardware emulation" thing because it sounds like nonsense. If you were to hypothetically start manufacturing replacement CPUs for the SNES nobody would call that "hardware emulation." It would be called aftermarket hardware. If they didn't work the same as the original than they'd be called shitty aftermarket hardware. An FPGA could theoretically do this. People just don't since its more reasonable and useful to include the rest of the system.

>>10332743
"Aftermarket hardware" is "hardware emulation". Hell, it goes even crazier than that. The model 2 Mega Drive is an emulated model 1. The PS1 had a dithering bug that was fixed in later revisions, so everything past the launch model is "inaccurate". The problem is people considering emulation purely as a software thing.

>>10332743
The real advantage of it is that you don't run a whole OS and a button press doesn't have to go through twenty different levels of abstraction to reach the actual running game, resulting in much lower latencies.

>>10331506
>MARS/Multi Arcade & Retro System will cost around $700 on release
>We'll be lucky if $400 is the asking price, let alone $300.
that is nuts. gamers paying huge price tags for both new retro machines and newer game consoles. the entire hobby is expensive.

>>10332754
>gamers
The subhumans buying this shit aren't gamers, they're posers looking for content for their youtube channel or to post pictures of their "haul" to reddit.

>>10332756
>posers
you really couldn't have said it better

>>10328613
This really isn't a problem for anyone with an IQ above the single-digits

>>10328724
MARS is vapourware, they haven't shown anything running on it. The mister n64 dev said it couldn't even do DS kek. I'll believe naomi when I see it. Not paying 700 bucks for it regardless.

>>10332742
>but no one is able to do such skilled work
Wrong.
You're not able, but plenty are.

>>10332679
You seem triggered by the truth. Anyone with a functioning brain can see that the MiSTer is just a mini PC running emulators. Shill as much as you want, bit no one's falling for your $600 scam machine.

>>10332742
I bought a cheap HDMI converter($20) & plugged it into my mClassic, it looks just fine. Not perfect, but fine.

>>10332749
Difference in latency is negligible at best and placebo at worst.

>>10332743
>An FPGA could theoretically emulate this
There you go. You've finally got it!

>>10332896
It depends. If you have a crappy pc and aren't using shit like runahead and frame delay it can feel like ass. If you have the right setup you can achieve input lag even lower than original hardware. It's a moot point. The real benefits of FPGA emulation options are in their simplicity and versatility.

>>10331506
How do you get a "more powerful MiSTer" without using a more powerful FPGA? And once you go above the DE10 you're way out of most people's price range.

>>10333062
I've seen 220K LE FPGA going for like $200 on Ebay. Utterly dwarfs DE10.

>>10333086
That's good news. I was under the assumption that the DE10 was as cheap as it was solely because it was subsidized. If better FPGAs are coming down then that changes everything.

>>10332896
>latency
As if anybody notices that or knows what that is.

>>10333263
If you play any hardcore action game seriously you'll surely notice. Some games (Punch-Out comes to mind) were also balanced around OG Hardware and CRT latency. They give you very few frames to dodge stuff. Any frame counts.

For less demanding games it doesn't matter as much, but the more responsive = more fun, always applies.

>>10332884
What pisses me off is that we have had multiple threads of 300+ posts of people eventually coming to an agreement of what emulation is or isn't, and how MiSTer fits into that, but then a dumb retard like you opnes a thread, scrolls down without reading any post, ignores all that and spouts retarded bullshit like it's law. I don't wanna explain basic shit for the 100th time to another idiot.

People are ignoring the biggest benefit of FPGA, or any hardware implementation for that matter. It's infinitely portable and future proof. Software emulators have to target specific platforms and keep on top of new OSes. But with HDL you're describing the circuit electrically like a blueprint. So once you have accurate HDL your implementation will more or less "just work" no matter if some new FPGA becomes the standard or if you wanted to fabricate a run of ASICs. It's a bit more nuanced that I just described but it's waaaay less of a headache than software.

>>10333336
>we have had multiple threads of 300+ posts of people eventually coming to an agreement of what emulation is or isn't,
That's some funny shit, Anon.

>>10333347
Well yeah I mean at least some people did. But there's been advancements in a consensus for sure. At least some people ara capable of being rational instead of spouting bullshit based on their biases with money

>>10333353
I think the big hangup is half of the people are arguing emulation vs. not emulation from a purely academic perspective, and another half are trying to argue emulation vs. not emulation as if there's a quality component to it. As if not strictly being emulation means it's better than software emulators. But we know from all those shitty NOAC clones from the mid 2000s that's not even close to true. There are plenty of software emulators that are way more accurate than hardware clones. Even MiSTer cores are often based on software emulators, which is my own beef with the FPGA community. They want to wave the flag of accuracy but aren't willing to address the elephant in the room that the cores currently don't live up to that standard.

>>10333353
My opinion on FPGA, Analogue products and the Mister aside - it's night impossible to reach a consensus on 4chan due to the very nature of the site, being Anon, time zones and other factors. Just makes me laugh to think people think that it's possible. Might be my autism, though.

>>10333363
>aren't willing to address the elephant in the room that the cores currently don't live up to that standard
Agreed, but I think this has been changing recently. A new genesis core came out based on decapped chips that is actually true to hardware and it replaced the old genesis core, which wasn't.

I think only Genesis and NeoGeo currently are based off of decapped chips.

>>10333368
You're not wrong. But I do wish people stop hating things they dont understand or stop hating things they dont use.
I seriously dont care if you game on emulators, real hardware or fpga. I just wanna discuss goemon everyday

>>10333378
>I seriously dont care if you game on emulators, real hardware or fpga. I just wanna discuss goemon everyday
See, I understand that mindset. However it is painfully tiring to have people crowing and being cocks about "OH, SUPERIOR FPGS! BASED ANALOGUE! MISTER KEKS YOUR ROTTING PLASTIC!" posts when all I also want is to discuss old games. In, or outside of emulation threads there are always people like that and I can see why between that and the viral marketing attempts, people are quick to shittalk FPGA and FPGA related brands/systems.

>>10333336
The actual idiot would be spending $600 on a MiSTer or paying for overpriced FPGA clone consoles from ANALog. Where as I can just use my gaming PC & emulate these games with ease. Calling a MiSTer a "hardware emulator" & calling the software emulators "cores", is like calling a black sheep a "german shepard" and expecting people not to know the difference between the two.

>>10333394
dude, fuck that rotting plastic guy. I get it, fuck the elitism. But that rotting plastic guy was like from 2021 or something. I'm on 4chan way too much as a WFH person and i geniunely dont think the elitism is that high anymore. It's no longer them stirring the pot, it's the people still hurt from 2021

>>10333424
>But that rotting plastic guy was like from 2021 or something.
Still comes up regular as clockwork. Might not be the same poster, but it's becoming a rallying cry and an annoying one at that.

>>10333372
I think people would respect the honesty. "Right now getting things working is the goal in the short term but the long game is getting transistor accuracy across the board to the extent it's possible." Instead they like to shout down or ignore the issue entirely on the grounds that "FPGA is better."

How's the analog pocket? It's the only product of theirs I'd be interested in.

>>10333409
Hardware and Sofware emulation are fundamentally very different. They're two means to accomplish a goal, each with their strenghts and weaknesses. Developments in one front help the other.

For example, as discussed on ths thread, >>10328314 timing issues are plentiful in N64 emulators. Development on MiSTer core can help better documentation of the N64 which in turn can help software emulators.

>>10333062
Buy upgrades. Mister Inc sells all kinds of upgrades, some of which are required to run certain cores.
>>10333086
Yes, there are a number of much more powerful relatively low cost alternatives. The problem is that mistercopers can't do anything but parrot cult dogma. Like this faggot >>10333176 who mindless recites the subsidized mantra. There are dozens of such tantrumic mantras used by the cult.

>>10333463
Gorgeous screen, great cartridge compatibility, dpad is a bit shitty, savestates are buggy as fuck, you're probably better off with a chink handheld if you just want to emulate.

>>10333463
It'd be pretty good if not for the shitty ergonomics and lackluster feature set. Analogue has abandoned it and focused on selling different colored versions instead of fixing the damn thing. They still haven't delitevered all the features they promised.

>all these posts about whether FPGA is emulation or not
You know those old Famiclone consoles that were running on a Nintendo-on-a-chip? That's basically what an FPGA is trying to do. It's closer to a bootleg console than emulation.
So why didn't those consoles run on FPGAs or why aren't these fancy new boxes running on dedicated clone chips? Because of economics.
The wonderful thing about FPGAs is that you can sell the idea of perfection while completely fucking it up because you'll be able to provide software updates in the future that fix potential issues. This comes at the cost of a massively increased price per unit.
But once you have the perfect FPGA recreation of your favourite console, surely it'd be cheaper to just start manufacturing dedicated chips, no? Not necessarily. Microchip manufacturing requires tremendous upfront cost. It makes sense when you're making millions of SNES or Mega Drive clones, but when your customer base is a few thousand nerds you'll never make your money back. So it's easier to just have the customers pay extra for the more expensive FPGA chips you're using.
Another advantage that FPGA chips have is that outside of dedicated clone consoles, projects like MiSTer can be multiple consoles instead of just a single dedicated clone console.

>>10333475
>>10333476
Ah... I'd rather not spend a premium for a shitty dpad. That's kinda important to not be shit.

>>10333508
It's... fine. It's an 8bitdo d-pad, if you ever used one of their SNES controllers you know what to expect.

streamers gonna get one of these and put REAL HARDWARE on their stream title while they imply that n64 emulation is bad at least 10 times per stream

>>10333537
real enthusiasts will be able to tell right away, and speedrunners will definitely be able to tell

>>10333469
The only real "upgrade" is running dual RAM. Everything else is just different outputs and inputs that don't really affect the underlying limitations of the DE10.

>>10327887
You'll be dead before you can no longer buy a second hand and working N64. You can buy fucking Victorian bowls now if you want to that were produced in the 000's rather than millions.

>>10333713
Going by current trends though, authentic N64s will cost $800 before long.

>>10333713
caps are failing though so you might wanna learn to solder.

>>10332754
Thing is, you technically don't need either of these. If you want to play on real hardware, you can still play with real hardware and just use an upscaler, or more ideally a CRT since some consoles like the N64 or PS2 look like ass on anything but older displays IMO.
If you don't want to use upscalers, then emulation is still a good solution that has been around for ages. It's not even like you need to buy a chinkheld or Steam Deck to use them, they're on tons of consoles. Hell you could even emulate a NES/SNES/Master System/Genesis/Atari just fine with a Wii and a CRT, maybe even getting better results with a PS3.

>>10333627
If there were no "underlying limitations of the DE10" there'd be no need to stack all kinds of shit underlying and overlying it, would there?

>>10333876
What are you talking about? I didn't say there are no underlying limitations. And the stack doesn't improve the DE10 as far as the cores are concerned. All it does is add USB ports and various A/V out options, which you can do from the bare unit via direct video out of the HDMI.

>>10333469
Its clear there are more powerful FPGA platforms and there are cheaper FPGA platforms. But who will get them to critical mass? Only Mister has sorgelig, the dude's a genius.

>>10333263
Casual.

Why are we mass producing the fpga and not the implementation?

how did MiSTer N64 get so good so fast? everyone said it was impossible

>>10333409
Don't lump in MiSTer with Analogue, which is actually overpriced garbage. Software emulation is great, and the arguments of accuracy for fpga are overblown horseshit, but there are some real advantages to FPGA + MiSTer depending on your use case, and systems that are currently more accurate on it. If you have a good gaming PC and just want to play shit at your desk, then yeah, Mister probably would look like a waste of money. Not necessarily $600 worth though, can you stop this meme?

>>10327986
That’s the idea of MARSFPGA. I hope they deliver.

>>10333486
Another difference is that FPGA cores aren't made by Chinese people so actual effort is put into them beyond getting Circus Charlie to boot without melting

LOL RetroRGB took a huge shit on Taber in his latest video

>>10334013
"everyone" isn't professional fpga devs so don't know wtf they're talking about.
FPGAzumspass is a very smart man.
The entire n64 isn't being implemented. He was able to cut out unused features of the hardware to get it to fit.

>>10327827
>Emulators don't play games natively with 100% compatibility
I always see people say this but the cores get updates that fix compatibility and bugs
most of the cores are based on emulators, not the console function

>>10327926
>>10328320
>>10328460
>another N64 controller that doesn't allow for the third control scheme
lame

>>10334092
thanks for the heads up, shit's hilarious

>>10333942
Who is 'we'?

>>10334013
I think it was just to shut up the nintendies constantly asking when wahoos will be available.

>>10327813
im getting one

>>10333520
>if you ever used one of their SNES controllers you know what to expect.
trash?

>>10334191
Companies that make fpga consoles. If fpgas are usually used to make prototypes then why can't we just get a finished cheaper product that does the same thing instead of an fpga?

>>10334427
Two reasons: scale and versatility.

Analogue could theoretically manufacture ASICs instead of using FPGA. Their consoles are already just a system-on-a-chip, and an ASIC would in theory be cheaper than an FPGA. But it's only in theory because you only get those reduced costs per unit as very high volumes. They'd have to fabricate thousands of chips for it to make financial sense. At low volumes for things like these hobbyist systems, using the FPGA directly is the cheaper option.

And then when you get to something like MiSTer or the Analogue Pocket where supporting multiple systems is the goal, you have no choice but to use FPGA since you have to keep switching cores instead of physically manufacturing one chip from one console's Verilog.

But that's why Analogue's consoles are silly. There's no reason why something like the Super NT and Mega SG for example should have been two separate units. It's a waste of an FPGA.

>>10333897
I'm talking about how the "underlying limitations of the DE10" means it requires multiple upgrades to do many basic things. Try to keep up.
>>10333926
Should be the same people who are doing it now. Or is sorgelig in the pocket of big subsidized DE10-Nano?
>>10333942
You and the mouse in your pocket aren't producing anything. Nothing of value at least.

>>10334454
But it doesn't require multiple upgrades. It requires exactly 1 upgrade: RAM. There is no other upgrade that is needed. Everything else is just convenience.

I think the emulation debate has to do with a lot of people thinking HDL is just a programming language like C and the cores are like software emulators just written in another language. But HDL is more like blueprints than code.

If I hire an architect to build a house he'll draft up blueprints and then build the house. If I then hire another architect to do it again for my neighbor he'll measure my house, draft up new blueprints if he doesn't have the old ones, and then build a second house. Is the second house really "emulating" mine? It sounds way more reasonable to say that the second architect built another house. There are now two houses, full stop.

Now if I then have someone recreate my house in VR, well, that's not another house. It's only a simulation of the thing. There you can say it's emulating my house as opposed to being a new thing in and of itself.

>>10334471
How exactly does it emulate systems with >100% accuracy when you can't even plug a controller into it. Also. I accept your copecession.

>>10334557
>How exactly does it emulate systems with >100% accuracy when you can't even plug a controller into it.
SNAC. You could wire up the pins yourself I guess, or just use the IO board that puts a USB header on it, along with a bunch of buttons, a fan, and analog video output.

Pin headers aren't an "upgrade".

>>10334557
>How exactly does it emulate systems with >100% accuracy
It doesn't do that even with all the extra shit.

>>10334427
You wouldn't be able to get updates as the core is refined.

>>10333469
>Mister Inc sells all kinds of upgrades, some of which are required to run certain cores.
Yeah you buy one cheap ram stick off eBay/AliExpress and then you can play every single core. Dumbass.

>>10331704
i think that he is saying that for people who don't have the original hardware they use fpga's to evade buying 2000 dollars on consoles, carts/flashcarts, adapters and controllers.
software emulation is still better for non portable solutions, it has enhancements and it has today with run ahead a better latency than even og hardware, most bad arguments against emulation are done by ignorance by blaming the emus instead of shitty operative systems with slow window compositors (most good emus don't run slower than the real thing, it just had ups by using things like windows 10 which have latency and fuck anything thanks to his background processes, on reduced window composition systems emulators literally go at the same speed as the real thing and fpga's, add onto this lag adding lcd and you get latency to excessive levels).

>>10333342
the issue of this is that soft emus already do this by being developed on general programming languages which with a simple compiler can make it run on any system, compilers which are generally done to making a lot of programs portable and easy to develop, so that's a moot point.
the portability aspect and the preservation of the pcb functionality is undeniable and that's the reason i support fpga, hardware emulation supports software emulation and software emulation supports hardware emulation

>>10334925
they just have latency issues*

somewhat unrelated, but is the rumble pak worth getting?

>>10334982
Fuck no

>>10334994
Why, is it shit?

>>10335071
It’s rumble

>>10335081
haha, fair enough.

>>10332884
>i'm smart and don't fall for scams
>i bought an mclassic
pick 1

>>10334982
it makes the controller significantly heavier in exchange for average quality rumble that won't leave an impression if you've played video games in the 25 years since. games without built-in saving also frequently make you swap it with a memory pak to save.
buy one just to try it out, but you probably won't use it most of the time.

>>10335126
don't forget you need some triple a batteries too. Most of these things are corroded over with the stock batteries cuz nobody replaced them after they died the first time.

>>10334575
>upgrades aren't upgrades
What are they then?
>>10334596
Of course it does. It was 100% accurate then there were updates to improve accuracy. It follows that it is now more accurate than 100% accurate. Dozens of poor children couldn't possibly be wrong.
Funfact: MiSTer was initially named after the MiST project, whose name stands for "AMiga/ST". MiSTer is a portmanteau of MiST and coper
>>10334914
Thank you for confirming I'm correct. But why not buy nothing and emulate using your LCD and USB controller? Is it more difficult to never shut up about retroarch than mister?

>>10328239
le blackface tommy

>>10335107
t. Someone who's never owned an mClassic

Honestly it's a great device that makes games look better, you can tell the difference. So no, he isn't scammed.

>>10335256
yeah no, stop lying
I also got one and it does no such thing

>>10334625
So you're telling me the emulation isn't perfect then.

>>10334925
Idiot >>10328612

I ain't touching N64 emulators until this stuff is fixed. Real hardwate is still the vastly superior option. Who cares about resolution when games run with ZSNES tier timings.

>>10335257
You're the only one lying bruh. I've seen the difference with & without it.

>>10334925
>i think that he is saying
Stopped reading there. "He" was being a pseud and got justly rekt for it.

Adding to the reply count.

>>10335126
Having played the N64 so much with the rumble pak installed I got too used to the weight. It now feels too light without it.

>>10335281
Well I don't know, I'm playing 100% accurate NeoGeo core based on decapped chips. What are you using? Finalburn alpha from a decade ago? kek

>>10335560
>core needs to be updated
>n-no its perfect!

>>10335560
But it was 100% accurate before

>>10335879
>>10335896
seethe poorfags

>>10335984
>People who can spend more money on toys than me are poorfags
Yes. That's totally the way it works.

>>10335371
as have I, you wasted money just as I did
but thankfully it opened a gateway to finding out about actual scalers

>>10335342
that's the reason i said good emus tard.
n64 emulation at the moment is bad but for example sega mega drive emulation and snes emulation is excellent and runs exactly as the original, my point was talking about general emulation by being related to fpga's..
>>10335429
i was just explaining what the dude meant, it is very retarded to simply dismiss something by telling the real thing which he tried to say even if he isn't using the fpga's to his fullest potential.

>>10337105
n64 emulation is ok thinking about it, it has timing issues but it doesn't break and at the moment require's more exact processes to make it better, but aside from that most games are playable and run well, using in development emus when there's already high level options which have more dev time is very disingenuous, obviously that high level emulation still has issues but a lot of games are playable and just require better low level emus or to improve the high level ones so they fix the smaller timing issues that they have.
use Gliden64 with mupen at the moment, everyone will fix the issues of n64 emulation by the help of fpga's and the decapped chips mixed with lot's of amazing programming.

>>10337105
>i was just explaining what the dude meant
Stopped reading there. If Jeffrey has something to say he can say it to my face. Get your psychotic ass out of here.

look at him go

the only N64 game id really want to play is Majora's Mask because I never played it. Also, Mischief Makers looks alright. I remember really liking Space Station Silicon Valley and would also like to try that game out again, idk if it's actually any good or not though
but in the year of our lord 2023, if you never played Super Mario 64, OoT, Banjo Kazooie, Star Fox 64, Paper Mario, Diddly Kong Racing, then you should check those out

>>10337119
>use Gliden64
No, use Parallel plugins.

>>10329285
What makes this game so difficult? Tight timings like doing shit between scanlines?

>>10337119
>N64 emulation is okay
the only thing in a worst state is Xbox and 3DO emulation as far as older retro consoles go, N64 emulation is still shit even after 20+ years.

>>10337493
>N64 emulation is still shit even after 20+ years
lol no

>>10337491
>What makes this game so difficult?
Your inability to git gud?
Oh, you were talking about mememulation. I wouldn't know.

>>10337662
Yeah, it is. ParaLLEl is just a very late bandaid, it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

>>10337662
Yes it is. A lot of games still don't render properly, or are broken or have other issues. The n64 was a frankenstein console and it's reflected by how awful emulation is because practically every game needs to have specific stuff built for it because they all rely on abuse of the hardware to get any good results.

If they can write a decent FPGA core it'll be leagues ahead of where we are with emulation by default.

>>10327813
I would get one for under 150 bucks but fat chance

>>10338149
>A lot of games still don't render properly
That's the one thing that N64 emulation has finally got right, Parallel 's RSP/RDP emulation is LLE and displays everything correctly.

>>10337119
>everyone will fix the issues of n64 emulation by the help of fpga's and the decapped chips mixed with lot's of amazing programming.

This is what emulator warring retards fail to realize. There's no competition. The MiSTer dev uses emulation and stuff software emulator devs added to N64brew as a reference to make his core, buys equipment to figure out the rest, documents it on N64brew, software emulatores improve.

This happens all the time.

>>10337761
>It is great but it isn't because I am retarded
This is you.

What is the purpose of this product? Just buy an N64.

so can i just buy this and get an everdrive 64 and have the definitive n64 experience

>>10338596
so far on other analogue products, you only need an everdrive for advance chip games like FX games on SNES or Mega CD. So you might not need an everdrive 64 unless you need the RTC or whatever

>>10337452
ok, i remembered that glideN64 was the good one, thanks for the correction
>>10337493
paraLLEI is good like:>>10338191
it still needs to solve things but is getting there.
>>10338242
yeah anon.

Holy shit I can FINALLY play N64 games because some trendy hipster company made an expensive modern device/status symbol which can run N64 carts!

>>10340184
I think it's more for people who want to play on a modern screen

>>10340184
>hey something I don't want, instead of just ignoring it I'll waste my time and everyone's too by stopping by to have a moan.

>>10340187
Getting an HDMI mod installed is like what, a hundred bucks?

>>10340202
It’s also not 4K as far as I’m aware and there are also other factors apart from just buying the kit
The other thing to take into account is the age of the consoles components