/vr/ - Retro Games

iirc dc version of 3S is based on a different revision from the one used at compettitive play and i think i remember reading some mechanics work different.
Alpha 3 I think it has tons of input lag and its based on A3 Upper which japan (the only country that cares about competitive a3) doesnt like its gameplay changes.

>>10277379
I played tons of Alpha 3 on Dreamcast and didn’t notice input lag, at least no more than in MVC2 or any of the other fighting games on that console.

>>10277356
Nothing. Just a cope from Saturntrannies

>>10277356
I played the ever living fuck about of @3 on DC and there is zero input lag. It's a fun as all fuck game. The only issue is that CPU enemy gets harder the better you do. The issue is it'll have lag if you play online (yep DC is an online console) or you emulate it.

>>10277392
rentfree coping I see

>>10277385
maybe it was on the arcades, i remember reading complains about alpha 3 upper having input lag but cant remember if it was on ARC or on DC.

>>10277379
>Alpha 3 I think it has tons of input lag
This was fixed in the 2nd Dreamcast release called "For Matching Service". That version has the same lag as the CPS2 arcade.

This information didn't seem to come to light until very recently. Maybe the community can revisit Upper Edition via that version.

>>10277394
>I played the ever living fuck about of @3 on DC and there is zero input lag.
You must have played the matching service version.
The original "Saikyo Dojo" version has 1 extra frame of lag over the CPS2 version (the arcade Upper has 2 extra!)

>>/vr/thread/9875326#p9892917

>>10277379
>(the only country that cares about competitive a3
This is not true. The game is still popular in NA and gets frequent small tournaments, both online and offline.

>>10277465
The arcade version of Upper has 2 frames of input lag more than the CPS2 version.

The Dreamcast version of Street Fighter Zero 3 does not support 384x224p video mode.
Some sites list it as having it but I have tried every version of the game and it never worked for me.

The game normally runs in 640x480, either interlaced or progressive. It does not properly fill the screen when played in 480p mode. Most likely due to being line-doubled 224p (448).

However, with emulation it is possible to apply a shader to enable a simulated 240p mode via the CRT-guest-advanced shader and the internal resolution parameter. The screen can also be resized to fit a proper 4:3 space with no black bars on the top and bottom.

example of shader

>>10277589
so basically, fucking nothing. thanks.

>>10277589
This is unnoticeable on the TVs and shit at the time. I bought it at Babbages. 1 frame is like zip on an old wired controller going through a stereo system and being on a tube TV

>>10277669
I burned a copy circa 2001 and immediately noticed something was off and never touched it again until over a decade later. I had other fighting games on my mind at the time (CVS2 principally).

So no, it was not "unnoticeable". Not to someone who played the game seriously. I was a tourneyfag back then. Traveled across the country, MAS stick, etc, etc. It was glaring to me within seconds.

>>10277356
Inconsistencies. That's it, really. For better or for worse is moot; just having any difference at all from the arcade version is enough to deem it a waste because competitors honed their skills on the arcades and their muscle memory hinges on how that game behaved. There are instances of games actually being improved with ports, removing slowdown mainly, and that's used as exact reason it fails to meet the competitive standard, for not being "arcade accurate."

>>10277687
Back then the top players had a hugely disproportionate amount of influence on what the community decided to play. It's only just recently the FGC is re-examining this system of regulation.

>>10277356
Teenagers and dudebros held a 5 minute meeting at SHGL in 2002 that said those versions are banned forever due to being "broken bruh lmao" and you can never ever question it.

Ever.

>>10277693
It's pretty nuts, especially in a genre that insists games must be played at the highest level consistently to discover how they work on even some basic levels, that players also used to love making blanket judgment on ports and re-releases to make excuses not to play them and stick with the versions they incidentally already grinded in for thousands of hours. In Alpha 3's case specifically, Dreamcast/Upper for Naomi boards got rid of crouch canceling which takes a bunch of infinites out of the game, and you know damn well that played a part in why people dumped on this version.

>>10277709
To go further, keeping in line with that first thought here, people write off games like Alpha 3 Upper, or CvS2 EO, and how they remove tech that was in the previous versions of the game. Everyone says "They're more broken." But here's the point: You don't know. They've never been played consistently at a competitive level. It's impossible to know.

>>10277718
I looked up some recent top Japanese CVS2 tournies recently. Game is still just as busted as ever despite people telling me K and N groove had become viable.
Finals were A-groove vs A-groove with BAS stil dominating with the same broken Dictator paint the fence combo he used 20 years ago.

>>10277727
Viable these days means = the best players for these characters still lose to top tiers in the quarter-finals of major tournaments.

>>10277674
ok fgc boomer

>>10277727
I actually got curious and dug up an ancient forum post about EO.
https://www.mmcafe.com/cgi-bin/forums/archives/bbs/messages/15137.shtm

l remember when the go-to argument against EO if the RC sweat argument didn't work was to just plainly state "they buffed Sagat" yet all this says is they nerfed his damage. I think nowadays though many use P-groove SCs as the go-to writeoff.

>>10277741
The reality is they just don't like change.

>>10277741
I think one of the things that hurt EO was that it had a lot of inertia against it.
How many FGC players had a gamecube arcade stick when it came out?
Many would whine that they didn't own a gamecube or xbox at all.
Which I would file under "not my problem" but it was taken seriously as a complaint.
And of course the sucking off of Japanese players and wanting to maintain an international standard.
If EO had an arcade release things might have been different. But then again, Zero 2 Alpha and CVS1 Pro never got much play.

>>10277761
They like making money more than they like change. It's easier to win tourneys and maintain the rep to host popular meets where you charge five bucks a head if there's less in the way of you staying godlike.

>>10277798
Indeed.

Just to piggyback off this thread a bit -- what's the best port of 3rd strike for training mode? Ideally it would have combo trials or whatever like SF6. I don't care about versus play at all (or even arcade much) since I'll be using Fightcade for that.

>>10277821
30th anniversary collection or Fightcade training mode.

>>10277821
I remember Online Edition billing itself as boasting both the improvements to graphical fidelity and arranged OST that the Dreamcast had but without the changes it made from the arcade, but I can't remember if those claims held water in the end.

>>10277687
...And then there's SC1.

>>10277998
WHOA, NICE GRAPHICS

>>10277628
>>10277597

Can you force it to run at 384x224 or 384x240 and force square pixels?

>>10277669
No it is not. It's very noticeable if you know how to play the game.

This isn't even a competitive thing. If you have the option of playing it on pretty much anything else, the other options are preferable.

>>10278026
actually i tried a little experiment, fit the whole pic into a 384x240 canvas using nearest neighbor, it restores the square pixels, but introduces one problem, duplicate pixels, same issue as with Saturn's SotN, in fact when mugen creators ripped all unique sprites from MVC2, SFA3 non PSX/SATURN versions, CVS1 and 2 and pre-CPS3 emulation days for SFIII, they had to manually fixed a lot of the sprites, which is a tedious process, it fucks mainly the anti aliasing added into the original graphics.

>>10278031
see>>10277582

>>10277379
>Alpha 3 I think it has tons of input lag and its based on A3 Upper
It's the other way around, A3 Upper is based on A3 DC port with additional fixes

>>10277356
Don't remember alpha3. But III3 had less bugs and a bit of a rebalance, and was actually better.

>>10278343
It has many frames of input lag and ugly unevenly stretched picture

>>10277709
>>10277718
Excellent points. I hope more fans of these games let go of this archaic mindset.

I get it for the people who literally dedicate their fucking lives to these games, they want that one standard version. But I hate that everyone else gets funneled into that, I don't give a fuck about the arcade standard I want the better game to be the standard. I'm willing to bet the majority of beginner and even intermediate level players would like Upper more than normal 3, and for most the scene would be livelier if that was the standard version.

>>10277821
If I remember right on fightcade you can save and load states for the training mode they have. That alone makes it the most useful training mode for the game. Doesn't sound like a big deal but it saves SO much time when you're practicing the same thing over and over, you don't have to spend half your time pushing the dummy back into position. It saves way more time than it sounds like it does.

I know at least some fightcade training modes have this feature, anyway.

>>10278473
I am a SF noob but Upper is so fucking ugly and no fancy scaler would fix it. CPS2 version with 384x224 resolution is perfect.

>>10278473
Zero 2 Alpha is more broken than regular Zero 2/Alpha 2 though. Only people who really need Cammy in their game would play it.

>>10277597
There's a CDI version of it that outputs 240p. crc32: c3a30eb6

>>10278483
I believe the PS2 version of Upper is 224p and has no additional lag. I'll check it out tonight and report back.

>>10278854
Is this via a fan patch?

>>10279963
Just checked and the internal resolution is 640x448, so it is double-scanned.

4 frames of lag from pausing, then frame advancing from a standing state to the first visible frame of Ryu's crouch animation.

This was done via PCSX2, not on a real PS2.

So the PS2 version is one frame slower than the Dreamcast Matching Service version. The PS2 version may be based on the earlier releases.

>>10279967
I just tried two versions through a USB-GDROM; RGB SCART into a consumer CRT TV...
'Zero3 for Matching Service' GDI outputs 480i, and I can clearly see the interlaced flickering.
'SFA3 (ReviveDC CDI version)' is outputting 240p by default - no button combo needed. No flickering either.

I don't know how or what they did, but get the ReviveDC version if you can find it.

>>10280056
>'SFA3 (ReviveDC CDI version)' is outputting 240p by default - no button combo needed. No flickering either.
I tried this version in RetroArch and it crashes after the ReviveDC screen. I bet that is why.
I don't have a real DC to try it out on.
May we beg upon you for a phone pic?
Does the game exhibit any odd graphical effects during gameplay?
Is it the original or the Matching Service version?

>>10280080
>Is it the original or the Matching Service version?
Nevermind on this, it would have to be the original because Matching Service is "Zero" and Japan only.

So the question is if ReviveDC did anything about the lag too? Or maybe switching to 240p may solve it anyway...

>>10280002
>>10280056
It's nice of you all to dig into this for OP. Refreshing thread

>>10277356
I think it was because it was not accurate to the arcade original. The community around fighting games really disliked the Dreamcast. On more than one occasion, I recall tournament organizers would destroy Dreamcast systems on-stream at the end of tournaments and held parties in the hotel rooms smashing them. It could be the higher clock speed of the Dreamcast made them very inauthentic to the CPS2 game so it would tamper results so the timings and combos which one could or couldn't perform on Dreamcast were skills that did not translate over to how the game actually plays.

I have fond memories of Alpha 3, it's a good late 90s fighting game.

>>10277356
From what I remember reading somewhere, the issues with Alpha 3 were hitbox related. Like the hitboxes were improperly scaled due to the resolution differences.

So I got the ReviveDC version to work with the RetroArch Flycast core by changing the video cable type to RGB.

And from there it does seem like the game is running in 240p natively from the emulator's point of view because when you try to use shaders on it then you get the right 1:1 scanlines without needing to change the internal resolution.

And this enabled me to use CRT-Royale with this game! Which lacks the internal resolution modifier parameter altogether! And imo looks better than CRT-Guest-Advanced.

Quite an interesting development.
Sadly, the ReviveDC version seems to have the same extra frame of lag as the original DC release. But if were possible to somehow use this same 240p hack with the Matching Service version?

>>10280080

>>10280212

>>10280131
thats because the FGC is filled with furfags and plain old fags.

>>10277597
>just emulate and use a shader, bro
At that point you’re better off emulating the arcade game

>>10280237
Except the arcade game is a completely different version with less character, different balance, and broken infinite combos.

>>10280189
But Bilinear sharp is missing to fix the mixels

So I did some more testing with this ReviveDC version unfortunately it has 5 frames of input lag just like the bad Naomi release.
How it got an additional frame of lag over the vanilla DC release I have no idea.
It's very noticeable when playing.

Shame because the games looks beautiful and perfect running via CRT-Royal in faux-224p mode on PC CRT in 1792x1344.

I have tried multiple button combos with the Matching Service version and nothing seems to enable 240p output.
Forcing it via Flycast settings creates ugly graphical glitches.

>>10280237
Read the entire thread before posting.
Familiarize yourself with the subject being discussed.
Lurk moar.

>>10280131
>I recall tournament organizers would destroy Dreamcast systems on-stream at the end of tournaments and held parties in the hotel rooms smashing them.
That was never widespread. I never heard of it and I was deep into the FGC in those years.
I'm not saying one retarded nigga never did it but it was not "the community" engaging in this foolishness.

>>10280217
Yup, blatantly obvious 224/240p. Does it still have black bars visible on the top and bottom? Might only be barely visible due to TV overscan.

>>10280265
damn nigga, u wuz playin fightin gamez in da hood? das da shyt yo, hellfied gangsta, errybody know fightin gamez = cash muny n duckets

>>10280131
>on-stream
In the early 2000s? Where

>>10280257
>I have tried multiple button combos with the Matching Service version and nothing seems to enable 240p output.
We'd have to ask the ReviveDC guys how they did it. I attempted to mod Mars Matrix to output 240p (like the arcade version) using a hex editor, comparing games that did 240p/480i to find out the address for the video output. IIRC I compared 2 CDIs from SFA3 precisely because of this. No matter what I tried, it didn't work. Above my ability.

>>10280410
Mvc1 for DC wpuld be weird because the game uses both double lined fonts that fit the 480i aspect ratio but dont match the rescaled ones from the arcade.

>>10280273
Most 224p stuff usually gets rendered at 240p but both the top and bottom clumps of 8 scanlines get eaten by the overscanning which is how lools the best.

>>10280229
The Dreamcast was highly damaging to tournament settings. Its video output was not secure, player inputs or the game may be paused due to the same weak connection to the system that does not lock. The console had trouble with all manners of fight sticks and converters people had. They were all legitimate complaints, which made the community avoid Dreamcast usage if at all possible.

>>10280265
I recall one instance it was one of the Cannon brothers slamming one against the edge of a stage then onto the ground and then a few people joined in on stomping the pieces to a crowd of applause. Another time, this one I remember definitely on stream for one that I couldn't attend, it was after the MVC2 tournament finished, for timeframe it was a bit after MVC2 was announced for arrival onto XBLA, someone took a hammer and went to town on a Dreamcast and I think they prominently displayed the cracked PCB between the stream announcers for their closing statements. If I remember correctly one of the commentators at least did not approve stating it was like a friend that they will not miss (Yipes?).

>>10280336
I remember watching a lot of streams on Realplayer of live events. Even Sonic Team had one going in their offices to Samba de Amigo music. A few of those aforementioned tournaments were on Ustream which may explain why I was unable to dig up youtube footage of Dreamcast destruction. The tougeki tournaments had their own client to stream their games back then too.

>>10277356
they're fine
garou motw is shit though on dreamcast

>>10280697
Isn't that true of literally every NEO*GEO port to contemporary platforms though?

>>10280598
>Its video output was not secure
That is due to people yanking the cables out of the phono sockets over and over. Not the Dreamcast composite cable's fault.
>the game may be paused due to the same weak connection to the system that does not lock.
This is true. But it is due to people using MAS sticks which had a connector which was just slightly too big compared to the stock DC controller (harvested from cheap 3rd party controllers). Using that connector made the socket loose. It would lock properly with official Dreamcast controllers, and the Mad Catz controller mentioned earlier.

Smashing a system that provided them with countless hours of free entertainment seems incredibly petty and childish.

By the way the actual main frustration with the Dreamcast was the controller board blowing a resistor when certain odd combinations of controllers were plugged in. This could be remedied by soldering in a higher voltage resistor, but it was still annoying the first time you had to do it.

I would also add that the FGC should be eternally grateful to the Dreamcast for its role in reviving the declining FGC in the early 2000s as we transitioned to a console-based approach.

The DC had several advantages for tournament organizers.

It was cheap to begin with, and got even cheaper.
Then it was discontinued and went on clearance even cheaper than that.
Thus it was common in the 2000s to find Dreamcasts for as low as $20 as yard sales and thrift stores.
This let tournament organizers acquire many systems without the need to borrow consoles from friends. They could have a whole closet full of DCs.
Players could acquire Dreamcasts cheaply to get friends into the scene and immediately provide them with a whole library of games to try out.
The copyright protection was weak and allowed you to burn many copies of the games for those same Dreamcasts. Thus guys like Larry "Shin Blanka" Dixon could run the early Final Round series tournaments almost entirely off the back of the Dreamcast ports of CVS2, MVC2, MVC1, ST, and Third Strike.
If there had been no DC, or it had been the same price and had the same piracy protection as the PS2 things could have been quite different and growth of the FGC would have been stunted.

>>10280410
comradesnarky here and lol I don’t fucking remember what we did that was like 12 years ago at least. also hi /vr/ haven’t posted for a minute, is that google spreadsheet that we were keeping downloads on for a while still kicking?

>>10280846
also sorry for double posting but I’m pretty sure I made that rip and I definitely did not intend for it to output 240p only so that’s weird

All this talk about 240p but no mention how horisontal resolution of 384 pixels stretched to 640 is fucking awful to look at.

>>10280883
The best way to get even pixels from CPS2 is to prescale 4x vertically and 3x horizontally for 1152x896 resolution, which is almost 4:3, and then upscale from there. That's too big resolution for any of the 6th gen consoles though.

>>10280729
fatal fury special on pc engine is a work of art

>>10280883
It's "less awful" by a good margin.

>>10280729
KOF Dream Match 1999 feels very good to play. Only big downside is the music restarting between rounds. I can dig the 3d backgrounds.

>>10280892
I do 1792x1344 via CRT-Royale on an old 90s PC CRT workstation monitor.
I think any extra-wide pixels must be very small differences and then with the shader on top of that it all gets blurred out before it even gets to the (old and fuzzy) CRT screen.

>>10280927
1792 is not divisible by 384 tho

>>10280960
I know. That's why I said it would have extra-wide pixels.
But because 1792 is a fairly high resolution the extra width on some pixels will be less noticeable.
Then when the shader kicks in that width will be evened out even more.
Then my CRT screen cause the pixels to bleed into each other a bit and smooth it out even more.
In the end I see no extra-wide pixels at all.
Also I don't wear my glasses when playing and my vision from four feet away ain't what it used to be lol.

>>10280846
>>10280848
A happy accident, then. :)
There's a few spreadsheets out there. Some links are working, some are dead.

>>10280697
Why?

>>10280131
>>10280229
>>10280265
>>10280336
>>10280598
>>10280784
They were actually told by Sega to destroy those dreamcasts https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2015/jul/16/canons-publicy-mutilate-sega-dreamcast-we-begin-sf4-era-and-we-see-origins-wong-factor-history-evo-part-3-2006-2009/
I have no idea why though.

>>10282321
So that's one time.
Any others?

>>10282321
And this guy's comment

>That's not it at all -- They didn't have anything at all against dreamcast. If I remember correctly, all the blue dreamcasts were made specifically for evo, and per sega, were only allowed to be used FOR evo that year and could not be resold. Per the request of sega, the dreamcasts HAD to be destroyed immediately after EVO, so the Canons just had a little fun with it.
>Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, its been awhile and that's what I was told a while ago.

Sounds like complete bullshit.