/vr/ - Retro Games

>>10234162
Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge (1990)
Eye of the Beholder (1991)
Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992)
Ultima Underworld II: The Labyrinth of Worlds (1993)
The Elder Scrolls: Arena (1994)

>>10234162
I guess Ultima Underworld. And by extension, older first-person RPG's, like Wizardry.

>>10234182
They are all building up to what King's Field will be but there seems to be a significant leap with the PlayStation and 3d graphics.

>be me
>being a cool gamer
>some dude claims King's Field was first 3D game
>lolwut.jpg
>PC gamers already had 3D games before that
>like Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, and System Shock
>not to mention arcade games like Virtua Racing and Starblade
>baka at these console peasants
>get with the times, bro
>King's Field ain't no innovation

>>10234182
NOOOO THEY DON'T COUNT BECAUSE UHHH, THE ENEMIES ARE NOT POLYGONAL

Would the king's field trilogy work as a ps5 4k remake?

>>10234182
>Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge (1990)
>Eye of the Beholder (1991)
3D?

>>10234205
Would it sell? Yes, because it's a post Dark Souls FromSoft game so it will automatically sell well. Would it be good? That's another story

>>10234202
>Wolfenstein 3D, Doom,
Not truly 3d.
>System Shock
A good answer to the OP question.
>arcade games
Irrelevant to the discussion.

>>10234204
Correct.

I just think it's interesting how From Software was there from almost the very beginning of home 3d yet it took over two decades for them to become a household name in gaming.

>>10234210
>Doom
>not truly 3D
Aside from infinitely tall monster/player collisions and explosions, Doom is actually 3D. The game has vertical coordinates for monsters and the player and monsters have heights. This webm was recorded in a modern engine just to demonstrate things better but all of the mechanics shown are present in the original 1993 game

>>10234221
Even if the gameplay is 2d the player and enemy graphics are not.

Anyone ever thought about how Souls became popular to begin with?
It was a mix of PS3 owners desperate for exclusives, and the notion of 7th gen games becoming more and more "casual", and "gamers" wanting to be "hardcore".
Somehow these 2 factors made From Soft go from a relatively niche developer to one of the most famous on Earth. Kinda funny, and impressive.

>>10234226
So is Mario 64 a 2D game just because the trees, coins and bob-ombs are flat sprites?

>>10234236
Partially, yes.

>>10234237
It was also helped by Dark Souls being a great kusoge.
Then people forgot that Souls games were kusoge.

>>10234221
Yeah, I never really got why people are pedantic to say that Doom isn't 3D. It clearly has design that imitates a 3D space for all intents and purposes. Wolfenstein is all flat levels, but Doom has elevators, and platforms, and stairs, and crushers, and pits, and buildings, etc. The fact that Doom walked Quake on to the stage is not surprising at all, Doom already did like 90% of it first.

>>10234240
by the time Dark Souls released, the hype was already there. It was Demon's Souls that caused the phenomena. I still remember /v/ importing the asian version before Atlus published it in USA. It started as a word of mouth sort of thing due to the 2 factors I mentioned.

>>10234242
>shooting game
>can't aim up or down
that's why

>>10234245
would any of those threads still be archived somewhere?

>>10234250
That's a decision they've made because of how the graphics are rendered. Build engine games allowed vertical aiming but if you've played one you know how fucked up the game looks when you look up or down because it's rendered the same way

>>10234162
Any given wing commander game, for starters.

>>10234260
Sure, but that's one of the big reasons it isn't considered a true 3d game.

>>10234242
doom is definately 3d. just because there is no Z sorting resulting in every dynamic object stretching infinitely up and down during collision checks doesnt make it 2d

>>10234253
Not sure if there's 2009/2010 /v/ threads archived somwhere, probably?

>>10234182
those Dungeon Master clones are nothing like Kings Field

>>10234261
Only III and Armada.

Reminder that being able to move forward, backward, left, and right in a first person POV environment is still 2d gameplay.

>>10234283
but thats 4 directions. its 4d

>>10234351
This. And Descent is a 6d game for example

>>10234201
Nah, Ultima Underworld's kinda the big one even though it didn't have polygonal enemies. As far as 3D RPGs and dungeon crawlers go the big ones are: Wizardry -> Dungeon Master -> Ultima Underworld

>>10234182
neither of those 3d
king's field is todd howard's oblivion. even daggerfall came out in 1996 and still was 2D. then in 2002 you get morrowind, but combat was still hugely similar to daggerfall, only in 2006 todd was finally able to ripoff king's field properly. fucking 12 years later
todd howard is fucking con artist

>>10234446
The Ultima Underworld games are 3D anon. Yeah they're using rotational sprites for enemies and npcs but the actual environment itself is fully 3D.

>>10234240
The word kusoge has been completely ruined to the point where I can't tell what you mean. Dark Souls was a low budget game but it was great.
>>10234245
Demon's Souls started it but Dark Souls really blew it up. Demon's Souls was niche in the same way Armored Core was, hell even Dark Souls was kind of niche. The Souls games are weird because they became more relevant as time went on due to word of mouth and genius marketing, Dark Souls came out in 2011 but the industry didn't really feel its impact until years later because that's when it started being really in the center of the cultural zeitgeist. I think Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 are what really finally brought the whole series to a large audience though, and FromSoft just keeps getting bigger.

>>10234240
Just stop.

>>10234237
Yeah i love the story, Demon's Souls and Dark Souls existed at the perfect time. 7th gen was fucking awful and honestly even Fromsoft themselves fell into the trends with Armored Core V, glad Miyazaki was there to save the company though.

>>10234483
>>10234486
Part of the fun of Dark Souls is overcoming the clunky, glitchy gameplay.

Then that was marketed as a feature.

I think for something to be "shitty" it has to be bad from the bottom to the top; presentation, graphics, every part of it bad. I don't think it being partly "clunky" is enough for it to be a "shit game".

>>10234162
Robocop 3, Amiga 1991

>>10234201
>a significant leap
Things you can do in King's Field that you couldn't do three years earlier in Ultima Underworld:
1. Dodge a skeleton's sword

>>10234162
what is King's field 3d gameplay? I never played it

>>10234608
You just walk around and whack shit.

>>10234575
You can do that in Ultima Underworld. And in Eye of the Beholder etc. They even had a term for it, it's called square-dancing.

Acting like King's Field is some special or innovative thing is pure hipsterism.

>>10235181
Again, I don't know why KF is so inflammatory around these parts. It's possible to play games in their own contexts and without thinking about how many other people play the same developer's later games.

>>10235186
You can play it and not hold untrue beleifs about it. That untrue belief that it's some monumental innovative thing. It's a fine Ultima Underworld-like.

>>10234162
It's common to cite famous western RPGs as predecessors to King's Field, but considering the amount of time it takes games to cross over to there in those days, it seems unlikely that the UUW games influenced it much, and even less likely that they even heard of Arena. Instead, they probably were influenced by a bunch of Japanese games we've never heard of, like Star Cruiser.

>>10234237
>mix of ps3 owners desperate for exclusives
But they blew up with Dark Souls which was also on Xbox internationally.

>>10234446
Hey OP, why are you so autistic exactly? Also, King's Field ripped more off Wizardry, seeing as the developers stated they wanted to make a 3D Wizardry game.

I can't think of any RPG's at the time which were all completely 3D, but there were other games that were, such as Alone in the Dark, which came out 2 years before King's Field.

>>10235353
Ultima Underworld was ported to Japan's PC-98 and FM Towns systems in December 1993.
Development for King's Field was less than six months.
Doesn't seem that unreasonable to suspect that UU inspired KF.
Japan would also receive a PS1 port of UU (with polygon enemies) in 1997.

>>10235889
It depends what you mean by 3D. Eye of the Beholder type games are 3D. You can say it is just visual trickery and not xyz coordinates but in terms of mechanics and immersion it's more or less the same.

Ultima Underworld however is xyz coordinates so the point is even more moot.

And ultimately "the first 3D this" is not really significant. If Mario 64, Tomb Raider, or Quake which are all 3D "firsts" ran into a delay that pushed them back 3-6 months and they were instead the 3D second, it wouldn't change anything except in terms of superficial things like notoriety and money.

>>10236438
>Eye of the Beholder type games are 3D.
Is there verticality? Can look/aim up or down?
I once again restate that moving in four directions (left, right, forward, backward) is 2d gameplay aka flat land.

>>10236043
Oh the Japanese developers were definitely familiar with the western games. The idea that they were not is just something people assume out of ignorance, and the occasional Japanese dev interview where they play innocent.

>>10234205
the first time they remade king's field, it was awful

>>10234162
I'm sorry, can you repeat that? My mind was boggled.

>>10236043
Weren't Wizardry and Ultima hugely popular computer RPGs in Japan, at least during the 1980s?

>>10236915
kek

can any nerds explain why kings field is so slow, looking at the early armored core games they obviously had access to an engine that could allow for faster gameplay? even if they wanted that feel its a bit too slow.

>>10237025
Stylistic. AC came after KF 1-3, so you could argue the engine/tech was too primitive for fast gameplay. But later KF-style games would keep the pace. The games have melee focused combat where you nearly dodge attacks, and explore an environment. AC is a shooting game where positioning is more than just dodging, and you don't do much exploring outside using your environment for cover.
Also KF has no loading screens, that must've saved a lot of memory having only 2-3 models in small instanced levels

>>10237038
she cute

>>10237039
yeah, i've played them, it still feels like its just that bit too slow that people would have been unhappy about it lol. maybe like 30 percent faster wouldn't have hurt the intended gameplay imo. I forgot it was a launch title, still fairly impressive.
>Also KF has no loading screens
this is a really good point that i didn't think about. it is pretty fucking seamless for the era

>>10234162
>What kind of predecessors to this 3d gameplay existed on the PC beforehand
For themes defintely Ultima underworld, TES arena, etc.. like others have said, but in terms of gameplay I think total eclipse, mercenary 1/2/3 and midwinter 1/2 are more in line with the way kingsfield controls though.

Going to buy an SCPH-1010 and play this game.

>>10234237
Demon's Souls never would have caught on if it was offline, it was a game that made the most of online features becoming standard on that generation of consoles. I mean I will not tell you that it being hard wasn't memed about, but that was okay in the sense you had messages, bloodstains, and phantoms to help you, and this was before the bosses were really hyped up or there was really any matching restrictions so much of the difficulty came from getting trolled by invaders.

Somewhere later along the line did the series become about trial and error dying 50 times in a row for twitch content instead of community overcoming things together.

>>10236951
Yes. They still make Wizardry games to this day, that's how much they loved it then. I don't know about the Underworld games specifically, but the earlier Ultima games were also very influential on what would become the JRPG.

>>10236901
>blowjob tree
kek

>>10234162
Unfortunately for KF, being fully 3D in the early 90s means being an ugly untextured eyesore that runs about 20fps at best.

Wait. How did From Software started their career with basically launch title for ps1 without any experience?

>>10237250
>pitch game
>get lucky
simple as

>>10237250
From attempted multiple unreleased PC games before KF.

The real crazy thing is that the same guy not only started the company to make office and agricultural software then decided to try making games several years in, but that he himself was directly involved in the creation of KF and AC.

>>10237303
it amuses me any time i'm reminded of fromsoft's origins. there is this joke i occasionally hear that king's field games were made by and for japanese salarymen.

Arena was going to get a Saturn port in Japan with that Shining Force artist designing the cover

>>10237382
and the playstation

King's Field has such fantastic atmosphere.
I love the music combined with the perpetual darkness and clunky, slow-as-fuck camera controls.

>>10234446
>>10234201
Ultima Underworld definitly look better than King's Field.

>>10237332
There was a period when this was the case.

>>10237206
But no one was thinking from the perspective of 2023 then.

>>10237332
as opposed to what? Peasants from their farms?

>>10237332
she cute

>>10237638
Is she enemy?

>>10237643
Nej

>>10234208
Pre game, retard.

>>10234262
no, the reason it isn't "considered" a 3d game is because people are fucking idiots and they just regurgitate whatever bullshit they heard before whenever they try to join a conversation about doom

impulse -> response

>>10237651
he means that people would buy it because its made by fromsoft

>>10237434
the slow turning camera gave me a couple of jumpscares when i played the game, god i loved it so much

>>10238239
KF would be unplayable if the camera turned fast

>>10239845
Not that anon but I'm playing with the mouse injector plugin right now. If I'm committing a cardinal sin, I do not care.

King's Field is great. The darkness is so entrancing. I just started exploring the second level. It certainly does give me Ultima Underworld vibes. But almost like a lower budget Unity version, in a way. That's not to be construed as an insult, by the way. It's so wonderfully dreary yet alluring and tragic at the same time. Something about these first person dungeon crawlers really speaks to me. Aside from UU, System Shock, SMT 1-2, and KF, what's good?

>>10237609
>>>10237332
>There was a period when this was the case.

I don't think the original Kings Field ended up getting the best reception. It was quickly eclipsed by the superior Kings Field II.

>>10234237
people forget how weak jap games were in the mid-late 2000s. They refused to brown and bloom FPS and kept releasing whatever their version of eurojank is culminating in the souls games. the ps3 pain was real. I remember the hype for killzone, resistance, and haze. those were your ps3 exclusives. none of those games were bad, but none of them stood the test of time.

Is kings field the new "pit fall" debate? Which games are Kingslikes?

>>10237206
imagine getting filtered by oblivion combat system this fucking hard, holy shit
maybe you should stick to todd howard's games and leave KF alone

>>10237038
finally soulful capture

>>10236901
soulless/soul

>>10240525
What hype? Those games literally came and went.

>>10240531
What's the Pit Fall debate?

>>10242169
That jet set willy came first so pit fall is a willy-like.

unrelated to the talk of pitfall talk but it did remind me of the mayan adventure ending and now it makes me want to see john alfred in a modern fromsoft game but he still has a ps1 model.

>>10236901
reminder that "reaper" is a fake TL and they're actually "ropers" from D&D

>>10242594
didn't know that. actually thought the name never did fit, so good to know.

>>10237332
>>10237638
>>10237646
What's the story here? I only played through that translation for the first game and half of the second game. I remember there was a big dragon nearby and she gives you that sword, I can't remember any of the specifics. What's with the test tube and what do fairies or elves whatever she is have to do with dragons?

I'm planning on playing through the Shining, Elder Scrolls, and King's Field series soon. What do you think? I'm doing release order for a funky fantasy game experience

>>10242637
I think you need to get a job.

>>10240209
>action is fast paced

>>10242641
Okay, where?

Damn I hate this timeline

>>10242242
Neither of them are the first platformers so it seems an irrelevant argument.

>>10242641
>implying you can't play these games at work
Just set a panic button and have at it.

>>10242657
Yeah King's Field has no business being listed as a soulslike. At all.

>>10242681
it is. its just bait for baits sake. just like this thread.

>>10242657
i mean sure, i get it. same company and souls does have some KF DNA in it but they're fundamentally different. even miyazaki says he sees KF and souls as two completely different things. but hey, people not in the know will just write whatever they want and the majority will believe it.

>>10242657
>Authority control databases: National
>Israel
>United States

What does this mean?

>>10242689
>>10242729
Unless it's some creative hacks deliberately imitating Dark Souls nothing should be called "Soulslike". I saw Dragon's Dogma described as Dark Souls lite when they have nothing in common. As if Dark Souls invented dark fantasy and action rpgs

>>10242762
*uncreative hacks

>>10242632
the KF games don't have the best translations so they could have gotten some things wrong. but miria(or millia) is said to be the dragon's fairy in KF1, so she's a servant. then in 3, it says this here. the dragon is actually miria and she is guyra's shadow. so... guyra created miria and she created a avatar of herself as a fairy, it seems. as for the test tubes in 2, they're fucking weird. the miria clones in the tubes can be interacted with and when you do so, they repeat her lines from the first game in a weird drawn out way full of ellipses. then in the next room there are demon lords in the same kind of tubes and in a sign outside of the rooms it says "they're making demons here." dunno what that implies. since the big boss in 2 is guyra, maybe he's taking his faeries and turning them into demons? or maybe the mirias are demons themselves, i don't know. this seems to kind of clash with the idea that the original miria is a dragon and not actually a fairy herself as said in KF3. but again, it could just be a mistranslation that fucks with context. but either way, the relationship between the faeries and dragons, or at least the faeries and specifically guyra, is that they're his creations/servants. it's kind of whacky but faeries and dragons closely being related to each other is a old classic fantasy trope, they just play it out in a really bizarre way here.

>>10242696
What is bait about this thread? I think many anons have read into the OP question things that are not there.

Reminder: Dark souls is a kings-like.

>>10241973
those were the halo killers that were going to get the ps3 back on track. That's what sony wanted you to believe. It was a different time.

>>10234517
Alright you have no clue what youre even talking about. Just mindlessly spouting buzzwords.

>>10234207
King's Field isn't actually 3d either as your TV is flat.

>>10243087
>get back on track
The PS3 didn't start out on track at all.

>>10243094
You don't understand, Anon. It's not that he couldn't play the game. It's because it was glitchy and his controller was sticky and the game was buggy and trash and bad, okay? It just was, alright?

>>10243094
Are you saying Dark Souls is not a glitchy, half-finished game?

>>10243034
It's closer to Ocarina of Time or Castlevania 64

>>10238205
>The truth

>>10234238
Meme harder, faggot

>>10234238
>If it uses billboard sprites then it's not REAL 3D!
You do realise that modern games often use billboard sprites for distant objects, right?
Of course you don't.
You don't know anything, fuckwit.

>>10242804
I'm no language or lore expert but I could also see "projected shadow of X" as somehow being a misconstruction of servant/follower. Reminds me of the English phrase "right hand man" where obviously they're not actually a part of the subject. She could be his "shadow" in the sense she is always following him, either willingly or not.
I wonder what the original says and if anyone could elaborate.

>>10244107
i like the idea miria is a genuine good guy. that was the case in the original lore since if she is the dragon, that makes her the hero called the dragon of the forest that was mentioned in the first game. that also adds a neat yin-yang aspect to guyra and seath. but then they rewrote the lore for kf1 to where they retconned stuff like that backstory bit to be about a group of dragon riding heroes in the dark side box lorebook. but i choose to ignore that shit though fuck it. that box came out in 2007 and that's a decade after the ps1 trilogy ended.

playing Shadow Tower: Abyss right now and it's so fucking good holy shit
atmosphere is unreal, progression feels really smooth, combat is nice with the decapitations
I only wish I had more info on what the stats did, all I could find was this: pastebin.com/8R43CEWU
also can't play it upscaled since it makes the lighting flicker which is a shame

>>10244000
Those games are not fully 3d either. And those are distant sprites, not enemies.

Is Eternal Ring a a Field-like?

>>10245385
It's a King King Wahoo

>>10244907
still going, about 5 hours in. the poison area is a fucking mess but besides that, still fun

>>10243423
It's really not, I don't know why in recent years people act like the 2nd half of the game is unplayable dogshit, I think maybe its just the comparison to the first half, but here's the secret, nearly every game comes out in a state where major compromises were made due to time constraints. It happens less these days but early 7th gen and anything prior its a pretty consistent trend.

Its definitely not that buggy either, sure you can find speedrunners breaking the fuck out of it but just like the N64 zeldas a normal player is probably never going to encounter a bug that actually affects their playthrough.

So when you word it like you have to "overcome" "clunkiness" you're just talking about nothing whatsoever. I didn't find the game difficult to control at all nor did I encounter any bugs that slowed my progress.

>>10244907
>>10245648
abyss is great. i wouldn't worry too much about stats. i don't think they matter too much. i beat the game without knowing what most of them did. i just invested in the generally safe sounding options like HP and str. and the magic stats because i like being a wizard, even if magic isn't very good in the game from what i hear (guns are basically just better). and yeah it sucks it isn't an upscale friendly game. i really wish it and KF4 were, they're both really good looking games. also if you haven't played the first game, i recommend playing it after you finish abyss. i hear a lot of people don't recommend shadow tower ps1 but i ended up liking it more than than abyss.
>>10245385
it's effectively a KF with some changed up rules. there was this interview with a guy worked at agetec during the period where they localized the ps2 fromsoft games and he mentioned he used where he called games like shadow tower and eternal ring "king's field gaiden" games and i kind of like that term. and with that said it isn't a very good game. feels very budget tier and rushed. but there just something i like about it. the ring fusion system is cool and the music is pretty great too. the love interest girl was super hot also.
https://youtu.be/JvXXJjf6544

>>10244907
>can't play it upscaled
Good. Software rendering is more faithful

>>10245750
I played the original Shadow Tower not long ago but found it a bit unpleasant, the controls were what filtered me, plus moving and such being a bit too slow. I'm using the control option 4 in Abyss with circle and X switched and it feels comfortable
also yeah stats don't seem terribly important, gear matters a whole lot more by the looks of it
stamina, vitality and dex are all important. magic, concentration and mind if you want a magic build, but as you said, magic seems weak, just shooting out little fireballs from a ring
here's what I could find out about stats anyway:

Stamina - raises HP
Vitality - weapon gauge count (how many strikes you can do in a row)
Strength - break resistance
Dexterity - weapon gauge refill speed

Magic - raises MP
Concentration - element resist, magic gauge refill speed
Mentality - solvent resist
Mind - spirit resist, magic gauge count

Slash - slash dmg
Break - break dmg
Pierce - pierce dmg

Element - fire & ice magic dmg
Solvent - poison & acid magic dmg
Spirit - light & dark magic dmg

>>10243087
>back on track
PS3 came out a year later and still outsold the 360. I always felt like halo was dogshit anyways. Never understood the need for a "Halo killer". . The only good console shooters were cod and battlefield

>>10244107
>>10244754
She's not Guyra, but was created by him to serve a function

As someone who has only played soulsborne from Demon Souls to Elden Ring, which of the Kings Field and Shadow Tower games should I play? What's a good order?

>>10234446
You're hate for bethesda has turned you into an idiotic schizophrenic

>>10248647
They're not very similar in how they play.
Probably best to play in release order otherwise going backwards might feel regressive.

>>10248719
I'm most interested in the oblique story telling/lore and atmosphere so hopefully the gameplay isn't tedious

>>10248701
i never said daggerfall or morrowind were bad. in fact they quite good. but daggerfall is not 3d, but that doesnt mean it's bad