/vr/ - Retro Games

Can you delete this thread? It goes against my agenda. Thanks.

I haven't played it, but generally speaking, the hardest games on NES aren't sidescrollers, they're SHMUPs and racing games. Only exception I've found is Adventure Island. But maybe SMB2 is on par with AI

I love SMB2j and have beaten it multiple times. I’ve never once cleared gng. Made it to the last level of ninja gaiden plenty but never cleared it. Surprised to hear you think those games are easier.

Did you beat it 8 times to unlock worlds A-D?

>>10213542
I've heard Recca and Championship Lode Runner are incredibly hard. Star Force and Star Soldier without turbo are pretty tough as well. I couldn't imagine the kind of god you'd have to be to beat Arkanoid. Makaimura (Famicom Ghosts 'n Goblins) has no continues, so I always imagined that to be painful to tackle. Adventure Island (without the Hudson Bee) is one of the most challenging games I can think of though. Although there is a Famicom game you literally cannot beat, blanking on the name, but it's a puzzle game without a solution on one of its stages. I'd have to give SMB2 a go to judge how hard it is compared to many of the games I've listed though.

>>10213660
I was thinking of replaying it with Luigi but I don't I'll ever beat it 8 times.

GnG/Makaimura is harder but Ninja Gaiden is nuthin compared to it, yeah
>>10213743
Just use the warps

>>10213542
I knew it was hard but I had no idea it was that hard. I can't even beat SMB1 lol

>>10213542
>Is it safe to call it the hardest NES (well, Famicom) game?
Would not even crack the top 50.

The hardest Famicom/NES games are just a bunch of licensed crap with horrible controls and cheap level design.
But can you really call it difficult when the game is just a piece of shit?

>>10213834

It's harder than most but it's really not THAT hard, at least not if you're willing to use continues or the All-Stars save system or whatever.

>>10215107
This got a far better Master System version, makes me wish there were more multiplats.

>>10215107
ABADOX and Burai fighter.

>>10215156
I've grown used to playing the SMS version of a title after the NES version either disappoints me of just leaved me wishing for more, and often I got something on par with NES or even better, SMS was really underrated... of course, sometimes it was worse than NES too, Return of the Sinister Six comes to mind as it was mediocre on NES and they managed to make it 10x worse.

I'm pretty sure SMB2j was a huge inspiration for I Wanna Be The Guy.

>>10215730
I wanna be the guy is based off of The Big Adventure of Owata’s life, a flash game from 2channel.

>>10213542
Now you're ready.

>>10213727
>I've heard Recca and Championship Lode Runner are incredibly hard


CLR yes, it was made *specifically* for contests, for pros who already cleared regular Lode Runner and were ready to attempt difficult course. You can call it Nightmare difficulty mode.

Recca - I've had it on multicart as a kid, it's definitely one of the toughest shmups on the system. Best I've could get to is level 2, my friend got to level 4 (? I don't really know), the one where you start to fly backwards and a giant snake appearing.

I don't know how many levels are there after that.

Star Soldier is actually better without turbo. Like any Hudson game of the era, it raises your chances to success if you're able to manually press fire button as fast as you can. It's all about score attack and finding secrets (to multiply score), which gives you extra lives.

>>10213542

I finally sat down and played the whole thing last year. It's a game I'd always started but stopped playing pretty quickly before then. I played as Luigi and had a hard time and wasn't very fond of the game after finishing worlds 1-9 (I went through A-D later). Then I read that Mario isn't as slippery, so I played the game again as Mario and actually had an easier time. Then did a warp runthrough. I think it's okay overall.

>>10213562
NES doesn't really have any hard shmups though. Lost Levels deathless is definitely harder than any I can think of

>>10216569
>NES doesn't really have any hard shmups though

Abadox?

>>10215103
Bullshit, name even 10 harder games on NES that aren't just some obscure, broken, piece of shit games.

>>10216570
Abadox is 3/50 on the shmup difficulty list for context. It's not hard at all compared to the hardest arcade and console shmups. Even a deathless run is pretty straightforward.

Is the GBC version easier than the NES one? It’s the only one I’ve ever beaten

>>10216592
Somewhat. They removed the wind effect on some levels and shrunk the giant gaps that needed it so that they could be cleared on normal jumps.

Most of the Lolo/Eggerman gaxmes are pretty horrible.

>>10216592
I personally think it's harder since it uses SMB physics. For example, there are more moments in TLL where you're expected to hop off Paratroopas. They actually adjusted to bounce off enemies so you get more airtime. The GBC version overlooks this change so these parts of the game are a bitch now.
But the GBC version is missing five worlds, so...

>>10215683
I wonder if the SMS's main weakness was just that it had such a tiny library. With the NES there's such a large pool that you inevitably get some god tier games almost by sheer statistics alone. But you also get some of the worst games ever and I don't think SMS had any games as bad as the worst of the NES.

>>10216603
It's a great concept, but the puzzles leave a lot to be desired after the first dozen ones or so.

>>10216603
Lolo 3 is a fucking masterpiece in game design

>>10216862
I suppose so, afterall it had tons of gems even with a much smaller library than the NES, it was a good console, but if it had more support back then, it would've been an all time great like the Genesis was.

Still a fantastic system though... Sonic, Disney, SEGA's main IPs from the 90's and arcade ports, Sports, and usually good versions of multiplatform titles... it had so much good stuff. One of my all time favorites.

>>10216862
Same thing with the Game Boy, the specs were crap compared to a lot of handhelds at the time, just the library was far and away better than any of the others.

When I'm playing through Super Mario All Stars, I usually skip SMB2j and SMB2usa, because I think they are the weakest of the games. Sometimes I'll even skip SMB1 and just play SMB3 before moving on the SMW.
While technically not retro, I think Super Paper Mario works as a better SMB2usa than the actual SMB2usa.

>>10216945
When I had All Stars as a kid I really only played SMB3. I think I tried SMB2 a few times but it never really clicked, and SMB and Lost Levels just felt unbelievably limited, clunky and OLD compared to the majesty of SMB3, I didn't even want to touch them.

>>10216289
I personally don't play with any turbo. I've made it to stage 12 on Star Soldier; the reason I even mentioned it (besides the inevitable call of people saying to use turbo on shmups) is that it starts to take a toll on my hands after a while.

Isn't Mighty Bomb Jack way harder?

I also put US Castlevania 3 above sm2j

>>10217351
>US Castlevania 3
Not even remotely.

>>10217363
Nah mario you can beat your head against a level over and over with fast restarts and its not as frustrating

Cv3 requires way more patience and nerves of steel near the end. Some staircases are literally pixel perfect gaps between getting hit by a fireball or dying

>>10215107
Most of those games were designed with those controls so they would have some sort of difficulty. Otherwise the would be no difficulty.

>>10217391
CV3 becomes easy when you know the game well and can plan your progression, have the rights weapons, cheese the hardest parts, etc. Sure you might fuck up a few times, but it's really more about strategy than execution.
Unlike SMB2, which constantly demands precision and in some cases close to pixel perfect jumps.

>>10213542
I much prefer Super Mario Bros Special. It feels more on par with the original in terms of difficulty while adding its share of new features like enemies and power ups. The level design is also pretty creative, with tons of alt routes for small Mario, optional skips and unique stuff like underground castles.

>>10213542
I thought it was easier than Metroid to be honest. Maybe I'm just more comfortable with Mario over Samus.

>>10213542
It really isn't that hard compared to some. Especially when using continues, even letter worlds aren't too bad. Sure, it's definitely harder than the Ninja Gaiden or Castlevania games, but I agree with >>10216603, some of the Eggerland games are rather tough.

>>10217406
>purposefully making a game worse to somehow increase the odds of people playing it for longer

>>10216571
Ninja Gaiden
Street Fighter 2010
Adventure Island
Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!
Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse
Image Fight
Battletoads
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Bucky O'Hare

Bonus extra 10

The Legend of Zelda (both quests)
The Adventure of Link
Silver Surfer
Ghosts n' Goblins
Little Nemo: The Dream Master
Life Force
Paperboy
Tetris
Adventure Island II
Tiger Heli

>>10217890
None of those games are harder, I thought you would actually name some that are truly difficult, not just the usual suspects. Even SMB1 is harder than most of those games.

Image Fight 2ALL on Arcade is brutal, but it's a joke on NES.
Ninja Gaiden is fairly easy unless going for a no magic deathless run or something.
Punch Out and Castlevania 3 (even the harder western version) are tough, but shouldn't be on there at all.
Bucky O'Hare and Street Fighter 2010 are a joke.
Barely played Adventure Island, and while it's supposed to be quite difficult, it is completely static and gives you many lives.
Battletoads is genuinely challenging and is one of the few games that stacks up to SMB2J

>>10217917
An even weaker list with even more questionable choices. GnG is actually really hard (surprised you forgot that one the first time), but mostly because it's poorly designed dogshit. I'm not really sure if it's harder than Arcade version or not, but it's definitely more frustrating.

Do you even remember what you are naming these games for. You genuinely think these games are more difficult than Lost Levels?? Fucking Zelda? Life Force, one of the easiest shmups on the system? Silver Surfer, a meme game massively overrated in difficulty? Tiger-Heli, a very forgiving shmup that is easier than the arcade version?

>>10217918
Adventure Island is probably harder. The last few levels are absolutely retarded and can take you hundreds of lives. Personally I just gave up at some point.

>>10213542
I beat it when I was 11 years old back when it came out in 1993 with the All Stars version, so not as hard because you could start over the level. Holy hell I'd never do it again. Even now its still by far the hardest game I've ever beaten, that's getting the world 9 no warps, and beating D-4.

>>10217950
Any game is easy if you "beat" it by dying hundreds of times, however, you did not clear the game.

>>10217953
Dude, I know. I'm great at video games, but I know my limit. I will never beat the legit Famicom version all the way. I won't even attempt it. Not even if you offered me a billion dollars. I can't do it.

>>10217953
If a video game even allows you to get to the end when dying hundreds of times along the way, it's because the challenge was made with a lack of punishment in mind from the get go, so yes, you did beat it as intended, fair and square.

P.S. Peach is sexy! SEXY!

>>10217918
I think you just suck are Mario.

>>10217939
Lost Levels is not that hard. I beat it 100% on the All-Stars version within 2 weeks of owning it when I was 10 years old.

I owned Adventure Island as a kid and never beat it until my 20s.

>>10217953
The game includes easy ways to generate 100+ lives so the 1cc is not really relevant to this game unless you start including special rules.

>>10217948
checked the Mexican Runner's video of AI. he beat it in only an hour and nine minutes and cleared worlds 7 and 8 pretty easily. but maybe he had a lot of practice.

>>10217970
Punishment is an important element in games, whose absence would result in a game with low engagement. Even casual games have some form of punishment, an outcome of your actions. What differentiates them from hard games is how much tolerance they give you to make mistakes and how hard the punishment is for them. Stuff like life systems, health bars and continues all play a role in this. They are ways of giving the player room to make mistakes. Ideally, the later in the game you get or the harder the difficulty option is, less room you will have to make mistakes.

Game devs also realized that if they punish the player too hard, they are more likely to ragequit and give up. But, if they get punished just enough, they will be frustrated but motivated to overcome the challenge. This leads to engagement, as the player will feel motivated to push forward and get what they want. Engagement is that feeling of "I want to see what comes next". It's not exclusive to games and there are different aspects about a game that can make you feel engaged, difficulty being one of them. An RPG with engaging writing, for example, can keep you going even if the gameplay isn't, but that's a different conversation.

Anyways, shit like checkpoint systems and infinite continues exist as a way to reduce punishment. It does not reduce the amount of skill required to beat the level itself but gives you a way to try again without needing to redo previous stages. Sometimes you die on a level and get frustrated but you wanna retry that level in particular. Having this instant retry helps with keeping you engaged. In contrast, starting from square 1 can be punishing to the point of making you quit, because it's gonna take much longer to retry that part of the game. So, it doesn't really matter if you die ten or a hundred times, the difficulty of the task itself remains unchanged. Two great examples of this are Ninja Gaiden and Ghosts and Goblins. Two hard games that have infinite retries

>>10218272
The All Stars port lets you die thousands of times and gives extremely generous checkpoints. It's like saying you beat a game with save states so it's not hard...

>>10218274
Basically any game is going to become easy with hundreds of lives and generous checkpoints (including all those games listed). No-miss has always been Gold Standard.

>>10218290
He beat Rescue Rangers in 15 minutes and the furthest I got was the level with the giant fans after a month straight of attempts. And that's one of the easy NES games.

>>10218293
Jeez, my man... you wrote quite a Holy Bible there, but it's ok since it's all true, difficulty is a difficult thing to get right (PUN INTENDED) and I feel the decision of having unlimited continues in SMB2 was a good one... and getting sent back in any video game is kind of a bummer.

>>10218310
you realize he has played these games before...

>>10218310
come on dude, how can you get filtered by an easy babby game meant for young kids?

>>10218330
I just kind of suck, man. some people are good at vidya and some aren't. My brother has always been a lot better than me.

A lot of you just overthink this stuff and turn a fun hobby into a literal chore.

I mean, "unless you beat ___ by doing ___ then you didn't really beat it..." is something that's posted all of the time, with rules that aren't even in the actual video games we're talking about and playing.

If there are extra lives and you used them, you beat it.
If there are continues and you used them, you beat it.
If there are checkpoints and you used them, you beat it.

If we overthink past this it'll be a slippery slope where the only way to REALLY beat something is by doing a 1CC with no damage on a blind playthrough.

>>10218338
The All Stars ports makes the game like 50x easier. It's one thing to use it for practice, but to act like just beating the All Stars is the same as beating the FC original is absurd.

>>10218338
I beat Mega Man 1 a couple of times, used the pause glitch, don't care.

>>10218342
I never said anything about the All-Stars version though... still, I think that if you beat SMB2 on the Famicom, no matter how many continues it took, then you beat it, even if you didn't play perfect, as long as you got to the end legit, then you beat it and deserve to boast about it.

If you do it on All-Stars, then you also beat it... the All-Stars version, as long as you specify it it's fine, but it's simple, beating the version you've played doesn't mean that you beat the one you didn't play, that goes for any video game and doesn't have anything to do with difficulty.

>>10218346
Well, this one's more controversial, as it has the intentional use of a glitch, still, you did play through the whole thing and conquered every challenge, and you could probably do it fair and squared if you tried long enough, in that sense the glitch mostly saves time more than anything else, so don't feel bad, anon.

>>10218338
A game having enough flexibility to allow self imposed rules is a good sign. People just miss the point of the self imposed part and autistically infight over others playing the game wrong. Mind you, I am not referring external tools here, like fast forwarding, savestates and game genie. That's a different story.

>>10218357
credit feeding is not a clear dumb shitter

>>10218365
I agree 100%

>>10218367
At what point did I mention arcade credits and clear?

>>10213542
nah it's not that hard. I beat the GBC version on a roadtrip when I was 10

>>10218290
iirc he outright states that the game is incredibly brutal at the start, and says that he's collecting the Hudson bee to save everyone's time, including his own.

It's really hard.
I can beat all the other Super Mario games without using continues, but not Lost Levels. I think max I could do without continuing was the castle in world 6.

>>10218293
>>10218338
There's a reason why there's people like that, though, and why there are games without reduced punishment per say. A lot of those terms like 1cc come from arcade games, and beating those usually involves at the very least a 1cc. That's not even mentioning games like Gradius, where even checkpoints are turned against you as recovering from one can be harder than just not dying (at all) and continues can sometimes not exist. And those games were designed around that: you can't just replace the checkpoint system with instant respawn, it won't work. As weird as it might seem, those games were made with the idea of the player avoiding death entirely as much as possible, which, in of itself, would raise difficulty as enemies get more ferocious the longer you survive and the more upgrades you get. There's technically no rules in an arcade game to stop you from what >>10218367 calls credit feeding, but it's looked down upon because those games usually show the amount of continues you used or outright lock the true final boss/ending/etc behind at least not using continues (and at most, forbidden rituals). The reason why those people seem to want players to do one thing or another is because they love those games the way they are and it's hard to have a conversation when sometimes, a "casual" playthrough can have the player not really understand how the game works and plays. If talking about SMB2, while I generally agree that beating both versions is fine, they end up playing way differently. One thing I noticed after beating the FDS version many times is that if I game over, I'll try to use one stage from early on into the world, learn it and try to carry what I've had into later stages to have a better chance. All Stars making the game easier and cutting out the slightly more punishing continues makes the game play differently and isn't the same experience. It's more relaxing, but it's not the same, doesn't feel as exciting.

>>10213542
I've only ever beaten the All Stars and SMB DX variants. I don't think I have the patience for the original itself.

>>10220315
I (>>10218338) don't mind that, and as I've mentioned in another reply of mine (>>10218357) I feel it's important to specify which version you've played, since it really isn't the same... I just can't stand the "If you didn't play ___ in a certain way (A.K.A. How I play and think everyone should play) then you didn't REALLY beat it..." it just frustrates me, and I read it on here way too often.

>>10220323
All-Stars is just more fun, not only does it look better, but it has a save system aswell, so you can experience all 32 levels without having to do it all on a single sitting, or worry about losing all of your lives and restarting from 1-1 and stuff. I genuinely prefer it over the original by quite a lot.

>>10213542
nope, this game is nowhere near as hard as GnG, Battletoads, or Holy Diver if you know to do the 127 lives trick in World 1–1

I've always wondered, does the All-Stars version use the exact same engine as SMB1 All-Stars? IIRC the FDS version's engine is a little different in terms of physics and how Mario interacts with enemies and walls and such.

>>10224696
Different from NES SMB1, that is.