/vr/ - Retro Games

more buttons
if the saturn controller had triggers you get two more buttons
that's all

>>10204221
very easy, you can get more functions by putting your thumb in the center, you can press the 6 buttons at once, you can play normally with 5 and you have quick access to l/r functions so you can do actions faster, pressing l or r on the other case causes difficulties at pressing the 4 buttons and by the form of the pad you can't get functions like a+x, b+y and c+z easily so you get less combos than on six button controllers.
it looks sleek as well so you win on all manners.

>>10204230
If you want more buttons then you should add pinky and ring finger buttons instead of additional face buttons. So when is a Saturn controller more advantageous than a PS1 controller?

>>10204239
read this: >>10204238

>>10204238
>by putting your thumb in the center, you can press the 6 buttons at once
If you have a chode of a thumb then maybe, but I don't buy it
>pressing l or r on the other case causes difficulties at pressing the 4 buttons and by the form of the pad you can't get functions like a+x, b+y and c+z easily so you get less combos than on six button controllers
I don't understand what you're getting at

>>10204239
well if you have pinky and ring finger buttons and you add the two face buttons you still get two extra buttons...

>So when is a Saturn controller more advantageous than a PS1 controller?
dpad

>>10204221
Add the 2 extra buttons to the Playstation layout.

That's more shit you can now do in literally any action game.

>>10204256
>if
But that's not what we're talking about. If you know of any games that would benefit from this theoretical 14-button controller then do tell, but for the purposes of PS1 and Saturn controllers there are no ergonomic advantages to the Saturn configuration
>dpad
Fair enough. Well, I said Saturn configuration in the OP, so when is 6face/2shoulder better than 4face/4shoulder?

>>10204267
the op was "6 button controllers: what is the point?" fag

>>10204258
It's not ergonomic though. You say there's more shit you can do, but you also have to sacrifice other inputs in order to move your thumb over to those buttons in the first place. Adding Z and C buttons to the side there doesn't actually increase the number of simultaneous inputs you can make.

>>10204251
you can press the six buttons by putting your thumb sideways, for the other point is simply because pressing the l and r button of the playstation controller thanks to his more high position causes tension into the thumb, making it harder to press the 4 buttons, even more if you try to press one specifically, something that the sega controller doesn't have..

>>10204278
Did you read the OP? Or just the subject?

>>10204280
it increases if you put your thumb sideways.

>>10204281
>you can press the six buttons by putting your thumb sideways

>>10204267
Classic 2D-Fighters?

And the main button layout also influences game design.
So if 6 face buttons were the standard, the games would utilize them in a way that it makes sense.

>>10204221
Sega is and always has been primarily an arcade company. The Mega Drive controller had 3 buttons because that was the arcade standard when it released in 1988, and later they released a 6 button controller because arcade games moved towards a 6 button layout in the early 1990s when fighting games became popular. The Sega Saturn controller is essentially just an improved Mega Drive controller.

Maybe you don't see the point in a 6 button controller today in 2023, but it was designed for bringing arcade games home which was always Sega's main goal.

>>10204221
It's better for fighting games, top row for punches, bottom row for kicks. The other differences are a little more subtle, but the three main action buttons are still a bit larger and there are other various nuances with the Saturn/Genesis design. Ultimately I prefer just the three buttons since I rarely play fighters, but six isn't a bad alternative.

>>10204292
>>10204295
So why is it better in a classic 2D fighter to move your thumb back and forth between A and C instead of simply pressing the R2 button your middle finger is already hugging?
>>10204294
Arcade machines had 3/6 buttons because you weren't holding the board in the palm of your hands; the ergonomics become totally different when you're gripping a controller

>>10204285
I didn't read your long paragraph because it seemed annoying and stupid. Having four back buttons wasn't commonplace at the time, that's why the saturn didn't have them. Having two extra face buttons doesn't hurt. The reason people still use the controller is for the dpad. What's your point?

>>10204221
Can’t give you a legit point but I do think it’s fun to experiment with bindings for games that weren’t designed for it.

>>10204307
You've read a lot more text by arguing with me than the entire content of the OP.

>>10204301
I think it's not uncommon to use multiple fingers on the front buttons like when you are playing at an arcade and "tapping away" on it. So, using not your thumb but the pointer and the middle finger, maybe even ring finger, instead.

>>10204323
Man have you tried that? It's not comfortable at all, unless you set it on a table but at that point you won't be able to use the d-pad with your thumb, let alone operate the shoulder buttons

>>10204221
saturn can be used as a 3 finger controller, ps cannot

>>10204335
So the Saturn controller is better if you're an amputee. Fair enough

>>10204295
I was going to make this argument because it has the same button layout, but then I realized why this comparison doesn't work. Aside from maybe 1 button you don't hit fighting game buttons with your thumb, you use your fingers and they're spread out so each can individually tap something. A 6 button layout, or really any controller, doesn't do that, it requires you to invest your thumb in all 6 buttons. It's not just aobut the size of the buttons on a stick, it's also because assigning individual fingers means you don't need to move from one to the next

>>10204339
Huh, I didn't know Infiltration uses a bat top. I always thought that was more of an American thing and Asia all uses ball tops.

>>10204330
Capcom literally made a controller for SNES where you do exactly that because it's better for fighting games.

>>10204346
Yea but that controller doesn't have shoulder buttons. The Saturn does, so it's not a viable technique there

>>10204346
Anon are you talking about the abomination that was the Capcom Pad?

>>10204337
weirdly hostile, you ok?

>>10204359
Mate I conceded to you

>>10204301
To me it's a lot easier to press two buttons side by side simultaneously than a face button and a shoulder button, and I sort of hate having to use the shoulder buttons on the d-pad side in a fighting game (which the PS4/Xbone Hori Fighting Commander button layout was pretty much specifically designed to account for). It's a rare thing now, but in 90s fighting games being able to slide your finger across all 3 buttons in a row was useful for doing reversal special moves. Keep in mind even the XYZ buttons on the Saturn pad are closer together than any of the face buttons on a Playstation controller, and their rounded shape is great for piano'ing wakeup DPs in old school Capcom games. The rest is kind of purely mental.

>>10204339
>they're spread out so each can individually tap something
Actually no, most people don't really play this way and it's not really that good for homerowing because the buttons are too big. I know there's one of the newer Japanese SFV players I saw that does this fucked up looking hand contortion over the buttons where he doesn't move his wrist at all, but most traditional arcade players mostly "hunt and peck" when they aren't doing multiple button inputs so they can double tap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC_1ZWLOPJcdaig

>>10204345
Korea is bat tops, they have their own arcade joysticks that are somewhere between American and Japanese styles.

>>10204221
They're generally designed for fighting games before the shoulder triggers/buttons idea really came into fashion as the standard instead. SNK and Namco get away with 4-button fighters, but Street Fighter and a lot of its clones were 6-button, and no one wants to press a select/mode button to be able to swap lights and heavies or crap like that. Controllers have case uses rather than one universal improvement over everything.

And frankly, I don't care all that much for shoulder buttons nowadays except L1 for Mega Man X/Zero dashing.

>>10204365
>except L1 for Mega Man X/Zero dashing.
God I remember being a stupid kid back in the day and having circle as dash instead of R1 (I prefer it over L1 for whatever reason). It's so much more intuitive to take dash control away from my thumb so it can focus on other things.

>>10204376
>I prefer it over L1 for whatever reason
Same, but that's because I mismapped my buttons when playing MMZ on VBA way back when and I just got used to it.

>>10204350
Fighting games that use 6 buttons don't use shoulder buttons, retard.

>>10204410
Fighting games that use 8 buttons actually exist, retard.

>>10204301
>So why is it better in a classic 2D fighter to move your thumb back and forth between A and C instead of simply pressing the R2 button your middle finger is already hugging?
Because the thumb reflex is ingrained into us with virtually every game we've got. Only dedicated people and those who play a lot of shooters are used to shoulder buttons and triggers for auxiliary functions, never mind primary. You see shoulders as some strangely mathematical logic of conclusions, but for the average person, their thumb is near all these buttons, therefore their thumb will press these buttons, and the dedicated will work a scheme more fitting for them.

>>10204339

>>10204438
The supply and demand for the types of controllers being sold suggests that people prefer to use their other fingers as well. I don't think it has anything to do with the popularity of shooters because even the original Xbox had 6 face buttons/2 triggers.

>>10204221
But the Virtua Fighters would have sucked with a diamond shaped button configuration.

>>10204496
?? You only need 3 buttons for Virtua Fighter

6 button controllers are indeed a meme because hitting A+C, or A+Y, or A+Z, etc. is impossible to do with a natural grip. Shoulder buttons are better when you have more than two buttons that need to be combined because you can just use your index fingers where they naturally rest.

The PS controller is basically just a Saturn pad but with C and Z moved up top where they can actually be used.

>>10204520
c and z can be used by putting the thumb sideways, something that the control is designed for thanks to his soft edges and the l and r buttons being wide

>>10204221
It's meant to mimic arcade cab design, except it's retarded since cab buttons are designed to use your whole hand with individual fingers on buttons, instead of just a thumb. And the limited buttons on arcade cabs is certainly a constraint in many games anyways.

>>10204715
>thumb sideways
Stop this meme

>>10204221
Thumbs are more dextrous than fingers, and I don't want to be doing anything with my middle fingers other than supporting the controller, or occasionally flipping off the computer, so the 6+2 configuration is more comfortable.
The best use of shoulder buttons is for hold actions, and 2 is enough.

>>10204221
>I've not seen anyone come up with a single advantage.

It maps to the street fighter layout, you have all your attacks on face buttons in the same order as in the arcade. The only difficulty is pressing ABC or XYZ together, but that's only relevant if you are playing Zangief, and most Saturn Capcom games allowed you to map 3P or 3K to the shoulder buttons.

The same layout is broken if you use 4 face button 2 shoulder button controllers. HP is on... was it L or R? Or for PS2 and later, is it R1/RB or R2/RB?
And now that I mentioned it, having HP/HK on the same side shoulder buttons is also retarded (try pressing HP+HK when the two buttons have different travels and one of them is analog), but some games do that anyway.

>>10204221
Zoomers don't know how big and mainstream Street Fighter 2 was. Genesis and PC Engine 6-button controllers were made for SF2 specifically. Barely anyone used shoulder buttons for action at the time. I only remember Twisted Metal games being some of the firsts. Once SF games went niche and Tekken became the next big thing nobody needed 6 face buttons anymore.

>>10204441
I play 2d games like this with 3/6 button pads
it's quite comfortable when you get used to it

Anon, you do realize if you put your thumb on b you get access to all 6 buttons on the pad right? Whether this is faster or slower compared to a 4 face button 4 trigger is literally preference. but don't pretend you don't have access to all 6 buttons at once on a 6 pad....

>>10204221
I beat the PSX version of SotN with a Saturn pad because I like the controller more. (Only needed a little bit of button remapping that you can do ingame)

>>10204221
Feels good man.

>>10204221
>PS1 controller
Shit d-pad. L and R via index fingers is too slow and awkward for fast games. Thumb on ABC XYZ buttons will always be faster. Even pressing multiple buttons is much easier on 6 btn pads. Are you fucking retarded OP or just a snoy?

>>10204962
Maybe you are the retarded one because the OP is very clearly talking about button placement and not how good the dpad is

>>10204846
>HP is on... was it L or R? Or for PS2 and later, is it R1/RB or R2/RB?
So this is a matter of being mentally deficient. Good to know whom 6-button controllers appeal to: so far we have amputees and vegetables

>>10204221
Why are you putting so much thought into such nerdy loser shit topic like this? The answer you are looking for in truth is that Sega lost and therefore their controllers went out because they as a company left the console making business. Nintendo with the SNES pretty much invented the standard for controller designs which Sony and MS just kept on refining from the basic template set by Nintendo. Its already been said to nauseam that those six button pads are pretty good for some people for fighting games. So what aren't you getting here? Yes Sega lost okay we get it. Leave it alone already. Six button pads will never become a standard so go be happy. No need to make cringe threads like this anymore.

>>10205103
You can't be more wrong. Dreamcast controller was 4 face buttons already and Sega design lives in Xbox controllers. I has nothing to do with Sega but more with SF being the only game series that really needed 6 face buttons. Once it left the mainstream, the 6 face buttons design quickly followed.

>>10205112
> Dreamcast controller was 4 face buttons already and Sega design lives in Xbox controllers.

Bernie was a mole from Sony whose job was to burn SEGA to the ground

>>10204221
The point is for fighters
That’s it
It’s kind of detrimental to everything else

>>10204441
The poor man's arcade stick. This is nobody's ideal way to play a video game.

>>10205127
>burn SEGA to the ground
Sega of Japan already did that well enough on their own before Bernie had even entered the picture by releasing the piece of fuckin' Shiturn that nobody wanted to develop for due to its retarded, clusterfuck hardware (and if they did their games always ran and looked worse than what was on the PSX or N64), and sunk Sega into the red with manufacturing expenses.

Meanwhile Bernie Stolar gave us the best retro console -- the Dreamcast -- to make up for the Shiturn, for which we should be thankful.

>>10205841
>and if they did their games always ran and looked worse than what was on the PSX or N64
Except Duke Nukem 3D...and Hexen if you wanna go there.
>Meanwhile Bernie Stolar gave us the best retro console -- the Dreamcast
His one involvement with the hardware was giving it a moden over a DVD player, which props to him since there's no way Sega would be able to sell the DC at a reasonable price and keeping it afloat with a DVD player.

>>10205910
Hexen 64 blows Hexen Saturn out of the water, what are you talking about?

Anyway, a Saturn style layout is is better than heavily using shoulder buttons for fighting games. Even a three button setup like Genesis in claw configuration is more comfortable than SNES. Genesis not having shoulders is a weakness though. I like using shoulder for inputs like dash in Megaman.

>>10205926
>Hexen 64 blows Hexen Saturn out of the water, what are you talking about?
It's been a while nice a saw the comparison between them, i just remember the N64 one being blury.
I suppose i should've used Quake as a better example.

>>10205936
*since i saw
FUCK!

>>10204762
i won't, i can do it you can do it as well, it's a new button input which does the act of pressing 8 inputs on an easier manner so it's an advantage.

>>10205936
N64 is a bit blurry. This however, actually makes it easier to discern details. Hexen at below 640x480 is a pixelated mess without the N64's texture filtering.

>>10205959
6 inputs*
you can press l and r at the same time as the 6 buttons tho.

>>10205978
with the 6 buttons*

>>10205841
>the piece of fuckin' Shiturn that nobody wanted to develop for
The Saturn has 1030 games
The N64 only has 388 games
So there's almost 3 times as many people who wanted to develop for the Saturn compared to the N64

>>10205985
If only 3 times as many people wanted to buy them.

>>10205112
That wasn't it at all. Saturn was such a failure that they were just desperate to do anything to distance Dreamcast from it. Which is why it didn't even have backwards compatibility while the PS2 did. They were just trying to reinvent their next console taking a more Nintendo approach. They figured four face button controllers with two triggers and a stick for movement was going to more a less be the future of gaming. Sega was never a forward thinking company but they were kind of right about this. The primary reason I read that was given for the design change though is developers themselves wanted it since they felt that six face buttons was too confusing. None of this shit had anything to do with Street Fighter or fighting games at all.

>>10206059
It's OK, 64 only sold in America because the weird abusive relationship nintendo has with its customers reminds them of their government.

>>10205959
You cannot press A and C at the same time without pressing B by putting your thumb sideways you fucking autist. And that still doesn't change the point that it requires you to change your grip, which shoulder buttons do not.

>>10206805
>Which is why it didn't even have backwards compatibility while the PS2 did.

The Sega Saturn has too many custom chips that would prevent backwards compatibility to work. The PS1 uses the PS1 memory controller as the main CPU and accesses the PS2 graphics chip. Saturn baclwards compatibility would have drove the Dreamcast price up.

>>10206805
>Which is why it didn't even have backwards compatibility while the PS2 did.

The Sega Saturn has too many custom chips that would prevent backwards compatibility to work. PS1 Backwards compatibility uses the PS2 memory controller as the main CPU and accesses the PS2 graphics chip. Saturn backwards compatibility would have drove the Dreamcast price up.

>>10205985
Copy-paste mahjongs and visual novels don't count

The Saturn layout is ideal for fighting games that use the six-button layout from arcades
I normally prefer the PS1 layout but I'm willing to make a special exception for that kind of game

Map start and select to them, receive instantly GIGASUPERIOR controls.

>>10204280
I feel like it would be less ergonomic for action games but it would be helpful for certain PC games with gamepad support. Two extra buttons to map hotkeys to.

>>10204327
I remember buying a controller like this and getting really excited about having two more buttons for mapping, but you can only program them to duplicate other buttons. So lame.

>>10205985
>The Saturn has 1030 games
When you filter out the weebshit, read 'em ups, 2Dshit, and stuff from irrelevant D-tier devs, that leaves around maybe 15 games.

>>10204441
I refuse to believe anyone actually does this

>>10206910
>When you filter out the weebshit, read 'em ups, 2Dshit, and stuff from irrelevant D-tier devs
Ps1 and N64 also had those.

>>10204221
It's always hilarious when play a game like sonic and all buttons do the same thing (jump) because they realize multi-button garbage is useless lmao.

The point is that the industry were total bottom bitches for Street Fighter II in the 90s, full fucking stop. Sega - bitch niggas they were, ate their shit right up direct from the toilet.

>>10206910
>2D games are bad
>reading is...bad....plz don't judge me im american
>anything I don't like is NOT a game!
??

>>10204295
For some reason Ive always loved how it says “trigger” over the buttons.

>>10206934
Ps1 and N64 libraries had more to offer than just that though.

Saturn's library is only interesting if you're a hardcore otaku incel that plays jarpigs and other non-games from a dark basement because you have no social life.

>>10206949
Don't bother.
I mean, what kind of person cares about "weebshit" when most good retrogames were made by the japanese.
Outside of Rare games, 99% of the good games on the N64 were made by a japanese, had japanese voice actors and/or had japanese influences.

>>10206949
>2D games are bad
Yes, by 1995 2D was old and busted, 3D was the new hotness and the future of gaming.

>reading is...bad....plz don't judge me im american
Read a book nigger, not a videogame.

>anything I don't like is NOT a game!
More like anything that involves reading or watching cutscenes more than actual gameplay is not a real videogame.

>>10206972
Stuff like Virtua On, Bulk Slash, Stellar assault SS, Bomberman Fight, etc.
Were all 3D and only two of those were "anime-like", the only reason they weren't brought to the west is due to their late releases.

>>10206975
“Weebshit” refers to a specific type of game usually centered around tranime.

>>10205985
>The Saturn has 1030 games
And how many of those were exclusive to Japan or not good whatsoever?
>>10206890
>>10206910
This.

>>10206982
>Yes, by 1995 2D was old and busted, 3D was the new hotness
This is moving the goal post.
The original point of discussion was people not wanting to make games for the system, not specifcially "games that will get popular".
You're also wrong, a bunch of 2D games got good reviews and sales in 95, it's true that people started to think of them as old, but they wouldn't be seen as obsolete until 1996.

>>10206991
I don't see anyone using that argument on Goemon games.
Why does this matter anyway? It's literally no different than a game about the looneytunes.

>>10204520
hitting square and circle or triangle and cross is just as fucked up

>>10204364
wtf is this the secret to sako's godlike execution

>>10204221
JAMMA+ ports. 3d Fighters, especially those of the PKG variety.

>>10204221
>what is the point
2 more buttons. 6 button fighters on 4 button controllers suck ass. Shoulder buttons have no place in a fighting game. Having 2 more buttons on the face is never a bad thing. You can reach 4 in an instant, plus you have 2 more for games that call for them
>index and middle fingers on the shoulder buttons at the same time
Enjoy your wrist cramps I guess? I always treat r1/r2 as an either/or option for my index finger. Pulling the trigger with your middle finger while hovering over r1 with your index is simply unergonomic
>thumb on A...
No one uses a 6 button like that. Your thumb rests in one of 2 diamonds depending on control scheme (ABXY or BCYZ), or on B for 3 button games where XYZ are rarely used options.
>when is Saturn more advantageous
Fighting games. Always. However having 2 shoulders is similarly advantageous. 6 button, 2 shoulder, 2 stick (bottom) would be the best of all worlds

>>10204221
I use to not like the 6 button layout but now I prefer it.