/vr/ - Retro Games

in first london stage, due to how cryptic it is, most people find the shortcut first than actual proper way of progressing. for longest time i thought the skip was correct way to go myself. and when i realized there was more to that stage years later i was mind blown. there is an entire new section most people skipped

>>10137958
I didn't find this skip on my first playthrough. I would have been pretty pissed if I thought this was the correct way to go because landing on a corner of a tile in order to not die feels kinda cheap.

I don't know if it's a skip but I didn't know you could get on top of the plane from the ground in the crash site level. I had to go twice through the time consuming monkey bars puzzle that leads directly on top of the plane so maybe that was the intended way to go.

In Natla Mines in 1 you can make the jump at the start of the map which otherwise requires moving the boat, thus avoiding a round of backtracking. I was happy to find that on my 2nd playthrough

>>10137958
>most people find the shortcut first than actual proper way of progressing.

what even Is the evidence or data for this? your anecdotal experience? I haven't heard this as much as you make it out to be. What I HAVE heard is that there are optional areas in general that could be missed, not whole (intended to be) mandatory sections.

>>10138436
not him and the first thing I did in that level is sequence break at the start of the map to find myself in the end area

and then I found the intended path (harder to find than the secrets....) and found another smaller sequence breaking on the way

that level is a mess

Been playing 4, I'm nearing the end I think (the game just keeps going and going). Not going to go over what probably everyone has already said about the game, but for me, the number one flaw is how much symmetry the level design has.

It's absolutely everywhere, almost every single level has a symmetric room but sometimes more, many more, what I can't show in pictures is that entire level layouts are symmetric as well. I don't mind a bit of symmetry from times to times but in this game it's absolutely EVERYWHERE and it just comes off as lazy and "this is my first level" tier design.

I swear the level designers just made half of the rooms, and sometimes half of entire levels, then copy pasted that, mirrored it, and were like "Done!! I'm a genius!!!" and then went on to do it again and again and again. That's without mentionning other copy-pasted rooms.

Few more examples just because

>>10138480
? still an anecdote, and still ultimately your fault? I don't know how you're expecting me to take this as anything but that. Also didn't address my point about most people missing optional areas rather than mandatory. I'm not even saying it can't happen, just that it's ridiculous to claim it's the majority experience based off your limited experience, or that it's any fault but your own.

>>10138552
>rooms are symmetrical
>this is absurd because...IT JUST IS OKAY??? IM ALLOWED TO PROJECT MY ARBITRARY IMPRESSIONS OF "LAZINESS" ONTO THE LEVEL JUST BECAUSE OKAY?

you can find plenty of singular symmetrical rooms in any of the games, or literally ANY game ever. This is the most childish complaint ever that doesn't even say anything about the actual level design, interactions and mechanics. It's SOLELY superficial and surface level, completely based on perception and nothing else. I don't even know what to take from it because it's literally complaining about something not being the way you wanted to see it? lmao.

Unironically like the equivalent of the people who were criticizing Elden Ring for not having NPC towns because it didn't meet the arbitrary expectations you projected onto fantasy games. It's a "flaw" because it has (or doesn't have) something you wanted, not because of any poor or flawed implementation, or broken gameplay loop.

>>10138552
man, i was really not liking this game. some of the crap levels like desert railroad are literally a straight line or coastal ruins, which almost has nothing in it besides two skeletons, items, and mostly paths to areas you cant even access without keys anyways, almost 90% of the level is empty space. not to mention, swimming is oddly worse in this game when you get stuck on pieces of geometry or currents can push you through walls.

>>10138552
You sound autistic

>>10138641
>you get stuck on pieces of geometry or currents can push you through walls.

nah this is definitely one of those cognitive biases that I can't remember the name of. this has always been the case since TR1, I remember this EXPLICITLY, because of how often I try to make tight turns around corners all the time while I was getting used to the movement at first. I'll admit it might just be slightly worse or more frequent because all the games had 1 year development times and the devs were mega burnt out. But I'd doubt it's anymore an issue than prior games unless it's something your mind wants to start seeing as more of an issue because you can't vibe with the game. My brain has done this with games I don't like, where I'll inflate problems present in other games I like because I'm just biased.

No idea what the name of that cognitive bias is, but I'm sure it exists.

Symmetry is bad because it looks boring and unnatural. Any paid level designer will tell you that, and usually when we do it we at least try to have some details be different from one side to the other, but TR4 didn't give a fuck, it's really just "build half, copy paste and mirror it to make a room" and nothing more in countless cases

The level prior to those screenshots was also just a maze of the same 3 copy pasted rooms and underground tunnels making 90% of the level. I really think they were obsessed with making the game as big and long as possible and came up with all the cheap tricks in the book to achieve that.

That you guys calling this bullshit didn't even notice there was so much of it is telling of how low-level your opinion is.

>>10138641
There are some really good levels like pic related; I also actually enjoyed some of the bike stuff (minus the fucking turrets and how shitty some of the textures looked), but they're among a sea of mediocrity indeed

As for the swimming, I'm not sure the collision is different, but what's sure is that the underwater areas tend to be much more cramped than in the previous games, which leads to getting stuck on geometry more often and easily

>>10138704
>Symmetry is bad because it looks boring and unnatural.

this is an arbitrary opinion, particularly because you can find tons of symmetry and cherry pick just as much as you have here. Not to mention that a lot of the places in TR4 are literally BUILT structures, that are inherently unnatural.

>Any paid level designer will tell you that

irrelevant appeal to "authority"? who cares? lmao level design is subjective anyway, but even if I were to accept that it wasn't. You haven't even given an implied objective reason for any reason that's necessarily bad level design other than saying you don't like it and a paid "level designer" (which is barely a real occupation with any qualifications lmao? this almost sounds like a troll with how ridiculous it is to hinge an argument on a "level designer")

>I really think they were obsessed with making the game as big and long as possible and came up with all the cheap tricks in the book to achieve that.

irrelevant conspiracy theory? The Tomb Raider games have always been fairly long depending on how long it takes you to figure the right way and solve some of the puzzle or platforming challenges. I saw an anon from another thread a while ago tell me that it took them 40 hours to finish Tomb Raider 3. So you don't even have an objective basis for asserting this theory, it's just meaningless conjecture that exists to offer a convenient exploration of "lazy" level design, because if you offer a reason for something, even if you haven't proved that "something" yet. The "reason" gives it more legitimacy, this is how conspiracy theories work. Even if they can't prove the theory, if they say something that stupid people would believe based on intuition like "The elites want to stay younger" people will fill in the blanks with no proof because the reason sounds believable enough to their biases.

>>10138704
>That you guys calling this bullshit didn't even notice there was so much of it is telling of how low-level your opinion is.

? or we passively noticed it, but it didn't leave a strong impression on us, because it wasn't bad enough to be a detractor, nor is it what contributed to good level design, because it has virtually nothing to do with level design but in the most surface level aesthetical sense, which isn't a mechanic to be interacted with.

>>10138736
It's not just aesthitical though (even though I'd argue that is much more important than you make it sound), it affects all things gameplay related especially as I said it's not just rooms, but entire layouts and level-scale puzzles are built on the symmetry as well, and can easily lead the player into confusion. For instance, I don't believe most people remembered which room was behind which door in The Lost Library, not after going through them several times at least and forcing themselves to remember.

>>10138750
>it affects all things gameplay related especially as I said it's not just rooms, but entire layouts and level-scale puzzles are built on the symmetry as well, and can easily lead the player into confusion.

Okay tell me. Why is confusion bad? Is "baba is you" a bad puzzle game because it can leave people confused? Is Dark Souls a bad exploration game because people can get and feel lost. What about Hollow Knight? Where people frequently complain about the map being confusing and the structures looking too samey? If you don't like me bringing up non retro games, then how about the classic Prince of Persia on the SNES?

My point is. "Confusion" is vague, and more often than not an excuse. I need a more specific and pointed criticism. Because sometimes, the point is to not know, and to find and understand the minute differences in an environment and mentally map that so as to make your way forward. It just feels too vague and subjective. If you want my opinion of what I consider bad exploration, it would be something like Rain World, or (oooh boy, controversial here!) Ocarina of Time. These are essentially games where it's not really about being smart and keen and finding the right way through and mentally mapping things. These games have maps. It's more so about going to every place you haven't been and crossing off deadends till you get to the gate you need to progress (Rain World) or stumble across the key for that obvious door that you needed to open (OoT)

To me, this isn't exploration. It's more like stumbling around in the dark till you get to the light switch, and you can just vaguely make out the shape of the walls. You know where it is, how the room is laid out, you just have to bang your foot against a couple tables and drawers to get to it. You didn't figure it out due to your own keen observation or wit. You literally just played around and wandered aimlessly till you came to the right way. Somebody I met here likened it to navigating a "maze"

AAAAIIIIIIEEEEEEEE NOOOOOOO SAVE MEEEEEE NOT THE SYMMETRY NOOOO PLEAAAAASEEE AIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEE

What is the most famous skip to you guys? Opera house one blew my mind since I usually just watched dad play and read the strategy guide for TR2 which had no mention of the skip lol

>>10138839
I've never seen the opera house skip? What does it look like? Also, can levels even be blamed for unintended skips?

>>10138848
You can jump around a wall onto another platform and skip like 50 to 75 % of the level. I think pictured is it

>>10138885
OHHHH I think I remember this platform, I tried making the jump but it didn't work for me I think...I guess I should get trying lmao

>>10138704
Core design was driven by artists who used books for a lot of reference material. They took some textures from books, and they also took inspiration for their locations from books too, and for Tomb Raider 4 they would have obviously been looking at a lot of Egyptian examples.
Symmetry in ancient architecture is a common occurrence worldwide, and its very relevant in ancient Egypt, so it gives the locations a grounded foundation before they add all the video game extravagances like traps, puzzles, and platforming challenges on top of them.

>>10138552
Yeah I get what you mean. It's kind of a shame because the atmosphere is kinda neat judging by those screenshots. Is the whole level layout symmetrical or is it just the individual rooms? TR4 is the only one I haven't played yet but I enjoyed the level design of the first three a lot with how natural it felt and how they actually managed to break the symmetry in the level design.

>>10138826
Yeah this is a good example of a bland room in Tomb raider 3. Not to mention the trial and error spike trap and mud pool at the end. Luckily there are only a few of those in the first games.

>>10138949
I don't think this is relevant considering most of the symmetry is in the completely made-up stuff and when they did base themselves on real locations they broke off the symmetry as much as they could like pic related

But more importantly: whether it is realistic or not is irrelevant to whether it makes a good video game level.

>>10138961
some of the layouts are symmetrical, or based on the idea "explore west side, then explore east side to solve the puzzle" (or even all 4 cardinal points), especially when it's a puzzle area and you have to solve mini puzzles in each room to solve the grand picture. Sometimes they break it off a little.
Sometimes it even feels like they had no idea what to do with some of it, early on there is a symmetrical room where you have to use a Sun Goddess statue which opens 3 doors, but 2 of the doors lead to small closest...

if you're going to play it, know that I still had a lot of fun with it. There is some good stuff in there too. I'm nearing the ending and I haven't needed a guide yet, but sometimes I did get stuck on stupid things such as having to hold Use to open underwater doors; opening doors by hand is a new concept but I did try to press use on the door and thought that didn't work; because you have to be well centered on the door and hold the button for several seconds; got stuck for half an hour because of this
Some of the new additions like the poles and ropes or being able to go around 90° ledges when hanging on walls are neat, at least they aren't new additions that bring the pacing to a literal crawl like TR3's (crawling, ceiling hanging, mud...)

Just finished Tomb Raider 1 last night. First time playing it outside of the PSX version (I was using Tomb1Main). Still a remarkable game all these years later. I just started Unfinished Business for the first time, and I hope it isn't anywhere near as bad as City of Khamoon, which was the worst level in the original after a replay. Is there a glitch involving the boulders in Natla's Mines before the fuse that resets the item pickup? The only pickup I missed was from that level and after looking up a walkthrough it had to be before the cowboy. It could've been an uzi clip or something that blended in with the ground textures (finding those with 3d models turned on was pretty rough during the Atlantis levels).
Is Tomb2Main the way to go for Tomb Raider II on PC? I think I will start another playthrough of that, despite the fact that every time I get to this lava room in the Temple of Xian I have to stop the game and drive somewhere and then get into a real life car crash.

>>10138997
>Is there a glitch involving the boulders in Natla's Mines before the fuse that resets the item pickup?

That's intended behaviour, it's a puzzle and you have to outpace the boulders or the road get blockeds. Thus it gets resets for retries. It's stupid.

I just used the GOG version for TR2 which I guess is just the original game, it's a windows executable and it supports modern resolution, nothing wrong with it

>>10138552
>>10138704
ENTER The citadel
>boring and unnatural
Are you aware that real life architecture uses symmetry too and that some games might want to capture that? I don't agree at all that symmetry is bad design in itself. If you copy paste rooms and keep them entirely the same yes, you're a hack, but you can make a door be locked by 2 copies of 1 item and make the ways of adquiring each copy completely different in East/West rooms. Like one room might be vertical exploration and the other underwater exploration. I agree that TR4 felt a lot like a buggy chore until I finally dropped it after that level with lots of skellies and ropes.
>>10138991
I was stuck with that underwater bit too.
>>10138885
Holy shit. And I was angry about jumping from the platform near the water to the stage like a month ago.

>>10138991
>I don't think this is relevant considering most of the symmetry is in the completely made-up stuff and when they did base themselves on real locations they broke off the symmetry as much as they could like pic related

Have you ever heard of the word "inspired?" first you say "it's unnatural and not even realistic" then when you get an explicit answer showing you why it's the way it is, or an answer demonstrating how the symmetry doesn't necessarily detract from the level design you shift the goal posts and miss the point completely by saying "it's all made up stuff" yeah? No shit? The entire thing is made up, Cairo doesn't even look like it did in the game, and there are supernatural monsters for christ sake. I don't use this word lightly but it unironically feels like having to explain to an autistic child why traffic lights are green, red, and yellow, because they see that train lights are sometimes orange.

>>10138949
I wasn't sure about the symmetry thing with the other guy, I couldn't tell if it was problematic and the guy yelling at him wasn't helping, but I feel like this is clear and concise and helps cement the symmetry as fine. I feel like the conversation about this should end after this reply. This was some good context, thanks anon.

>>10138991
>explore west side, then explore east side to solve the puzzle (or even all 4 cardinal points)

Yeah, not my favourite kind of layout but as long as it's not overused it can be fine. TR1-3 had a few of those anyway.

I think I'll play it someday although I've heard it's somewhat more tedious and confusing than the other games (except maybe 3?). I'm sure I can enjoy some of it. I just have to get ready for some of the bullshit like the underwater doors you mentionned, or some key item hidden in the textures but I have a reasonably high tolerance for that. Thanks for the input though

>TR3's crawling, ceiling hanging, mud...

This has aged terribly. I wouldn't even consider playing TR3 without a fast forward button anymore. It didn't bother me as much with the first two.

>>10138961
>Yeah this is a good example of a bland room in Tomb raider 3. Not to mention the trial and error spike trap and mud pool at the end. Luckily there are only a few of those in the first games.

Eh. I actually found it to be one of the more interesting rooms because of the invisible platforms, I was genuinely like "wow" so "bland" is obviously subjective and not related to symmetry at all. Also I view the spike trap as my fault for wanting to rush completely to the end without looking carefully at the ground. I was looking up and to the side for a platform to jump to that I tunnel visioned and didn't see the key, so I wouldn't call that trial an error.

For the mud pool? I honestly don't know how I figured it out, but it wasn't trial and error for me, atleast not in the traditional sense. At first I though you just run across, then the second time I though to get a running jump headstart, and tried that like 1 more time. Then I thought maybe there was an invisible platform again and tried that 4 more times. Then I just slowed down and thought of something. "If the way isn't straight forward...I'll just try going through the side and see how that works" So I trudged all the way across like a row instead of a column...and logically you HAVE to get to the other side eventually, so when I got to about the end of the left side of the mudpool, I just went forward and it worked!

I felt so satisfied with myself for figuring it out sort of "logically" at my first thought. The reason I don't consider it trial and error is because I had the right idea and executed it the first time. Everything else were poor assumptions, and only arguably the very first try of going straight across was trial and error.

I'll be honest though...basically all of India and the Temples have felt really bland and boring. Seeing how many people whine about TR3 like it fucked their mother, I expected things to get brutal by now, but they're about the same as early TR2 levels.

>>10139026
>This has aged terribly. I wouldn't even consider playing TR3 without a fast forward button anymore. It didn't bother me as much with the first two.

No it hasn't, fuck off an go play your Ubisoft slop, or Uncharted. Tomb Raider has always been a slow paced game that values grounded, careful and player controlled movement above all. Managing and feeling the weight of Lara's movements through the animations and fact that you have to actually hold and commit to inputs is what makes her feel so uniquely satisfying to control properly. PEOPLE LIKE YOU and your lack of patience RUIN and homogenize games to the point that everything is uninspired and shallow.

Just go play your Assasin Creeds, Horizon Dawn's, and God of Wars and fuck off if you can't get it. As soon as you get into the idea of things being "outdated" or "needing to change" just to make it more convenient or easier for you, you get things like Tomb Raider 2013 with its magnetic, platforming, "survival instinct" QTE and Cinematic Setpiece where you can't die. As well as some of the most non existent level design ever.

You just don't get it. And that's fine, it's not your series, and you don't have to like it.

>>10139034
Sure, "bland" is subjective when it comes to aesthetics but in this case it has a lot to do with the room being perfectly symmetrical and not having a lot of recognizable stuff in it. It has decent lighting I guess. There are much more visually interesting areas in TR3 imo but I'm glad you enjoyed this one more than me.

And I gotta disagree with your definition of trial and error though.
If you have to die 5 times to the mud pool I'd consider it trial and error for sure because I don't consider hugging the wall more logical than trying to get a running jump headstart (which would make more sense in this case). Basically there aren't enough hints that lead you to the correct solution without having to try, die, repeat.

Same with the spike trap, you don't have the time to look for a key or lever to open the door. You HAVE to know that there is a key right there in order to get it in time. There are better designed traps in the game that give you just enough time to figure out what to do in order to survive. This isn't one of them.

Of course trial and error isn't always a bad thing in itself. It can work in a faster paced game. Not in a game where you have to be methodical and ration save crystals. Unless you enjoy spending 20 seconds on a loading screen everytime you die like >>10139051 lol

>>10139404
>Of course trial and error isn't always a bad thing in itself. It can work in a faster paced game. Not in a game where you have to be methodical and ration save crystals. Unless you enjoy spending 20 seconds on a loading screen everytime you die like >>10139051 (YOU) lol

already made an argument for it not really even being trial and error also: Dark Souls as a counter to your point. You view games to one dimensionally and narrowly ew. What says it can't work im a slower paced game? Stop looking at things so narrowly. Part of the problem is definitions of trial and error are barely consistent and anything somebody can't immediately bang their head on and progress will be called trial and error. But regardless plenty of people call Dark Souls trial and error and NOT fast paced, and it has even more punishing checkpoints and resource management. DS1 atleast. Address this or this convo will unfortunately be worthless.

>>10139404
>And I gotta disagree with your definition of trial and error though.
If you have to die 5 times to the mud pool I'd consider it trial and error for sure because I don't consider hugging the wall more logical than trying to get a running jump headstart (which would make more sense in this case). Basically there aren't enough hints that lead you to the correct solution without having to try, die, repeat.

Stop doing this "if you have to die" how quickly or not you figure something out is based on your skill, ability, and keenness, as well as your expectations and assumptions you make. So many people get filtered in puzzles because they didn't think open mindedly enough. Thats not the puzzles fault. It shouldn't have to spoon feed you, that's YOUR fault for thinking presumptuously.

Stop basing things as good or bad based on how people subjectively perceive them. That limits design features so hard, and was the whole issue with games like Sekiro and Dark Souls where it has to be considered whether there should be an easy mode which would diminish the experience the game is meant to elicit since it would become an unbalanced uncurated mess.

But. Testing stuff is natural, you CANNOT understand anything without testing first. Testing isn't the same as trial and error, the scientific method is just a big old test. Trial and Error to me means something with zero to no execution or understanding where you just stumble upon it. I only technically needed ONE go in the mudpool to figure out how to solve it. As soon as I realized I couldn't go straight forward on the right. The only logical answers were all the way to left, or anywhere to the left.

I won't lie and say it is perfectly ideal, but trial and error isn't "One or Two tries to understand something you wouldn't have anyway of understanding without Testing, because if it was so simple as to be figured out with a simple assumption then it wouldn't require any creative thinking or keen perception.

>>10139404
>Same with the spike trap, you don't have the time to look for a key or lever to open the door. You HAVE to know that there is a key right there in order to get it in time. There are better designed traps in the game that give you just enough time to figure out what to do in order to survive. This isn't one of them.

I've thought about this a bit, and I think this Is the only one I agree with you about. Even if you DO notice the key the first time. It would take too much time to orient yourself to pick it up and make it last the spikes. This isn't THAT bad imo, but it's not that great either. Especially with save crystals so scarce. I DID mention that dark souls made "trial and error" fine even with sparse checkpoints, but I also think Dark Souls' check point system is like 10x better than Tomb Raiders, and have some criticisms of my own about Tomb Raiders, although I still think it's good overall so far.

I never like trial and error In games but I'm not entirely sure how to feel about it in this regard. I'd need more references to make this judgement because the reality is that I didn't like these traps THAT much, and found this entire level boring. I just don't like criticism that feels too "dismissive" and like it's trying to be more objective than it is. This could be a more interesting convo but it feels like "trial and error" acts as a buzzword you're automatically supposed to view as inherently bad and stop thinking any further.

>>10139447
>What says it can't work im a slower paced game?

Because unfair deaths mean you have to painfully slowly get back to where you were after watching a loading screen. Which is simply not fun and is aggravated by the fact that the game makes you ration your save crystals. It's just poor design.

It works much better in dark souls because the game is generally much more fair. You don't have to die if you play cautiously and pay attention to your surroundings. There are a few exceptions to this that I consider to be outright bad like Bed of Chaos. I don't consider the game as a whole trial and error because it is mostly skill based.

The puzzles I mentionned from Tomb Raider 3 are NOT skill based. They require either blind luck or for you to die in an unfair way untill you find a solution that works. Again, poor design, and this is just one random room in the game.

>>10139460
>Testing stuff is natural, you CANNOT understand anything without testing first. Testing isn't the same as trial and error

That would be true for a typical puzzle game where you are encouraged to try stuff in order to discover the solution. In those games you only get very minor setbacks when failing, if any.
Your logic doesn't apply when it comes to anavoidable deaths in Tomb Raider however because dying is a thing you are meant to avoid (this is why the save crystals are limited).

A well designed puzzle should give you subtle hints in order to proceed without dying. For example, the fire room in the Lost City of Tinnos has a hidden map that allows you to get safely to the other side of the room. It's subtle enough but allows a skilled player to leave the room without dying. The mud "puzzle" is just bullshit trial and error.

>>10139613
Yeah, in retrospect I actually agree with everything you said...I've gone through the spike trap, mud sequence, and final spike trap like a dozen times now and realized that it's all monotonous, and my "figuring" out the mud pool was just me feeling like I got it, instead of really getting it, since I found out a completely easier way to do it later on. It was meaningless, and I just didn't have the perspective to understand that at that point since I hadn't gone through it a dozen time. The spike trap as well is boring and simple, and is just about knowing what to do rather than execution. I think that's the key feature. Because the spike trap you get to at the end of that sequence where you fall back into the main room and put in the keys LITERALLY requires like an almost pixel perfect ladder climb position. And you couldn't know that without trial and error, or watching a YouTube video. So yeah, disappointing. My perspective has changed after going through it so much.

I want to revisit what I meant by "key feature". I think a good definition for trial and error after considering all this is: "Something that can only be solved with knowledge, rather than understanding and execution" You just have to know the right way through the Mud puzzle. You just have to know the key is there in the spike trap. And you just have to know which specific part of the spiketrap to climb in the ladder spiketrap in the main hall. The execution is incredibly simple, and the save crystals only make that more monotonous, because there's no longer anything to figure out or contend with once you know what to do.

This was a surprisingly decent convo on here that inspired me to change my mind a bit and think more specifically about what experience I was having. Genuinely appreciate it. First person to convince me of something reasonable about the unreasonableness of TR3. Although I'd argue this has been present in ALL the Tomb Raider games to varying degrees.

>>10139613
So now that I've expressed that I complete agree with you. How do you think the save system issue could be solved? Because even before our interaction I basically had the same problem: The save crystals suck, when it comes to exploration or simple platforming sequences/puzzles, since it's just about redoing something you've already figured out, so the novelty of finding the right way is lost because of that, and now whenever you die, you just have to go through that long slog again that's unengaging due to their being no meaningful gameplay to engage with anymore since there's no tight execution, or hard puzzle, since it's been trivialized by knowledge, it has nothing more to offer.

I was thinking that check points/save crystals should only exist for hard platforming sequences. Maybe not even for puzzles since unfortunately puzzles rarely have any execution, so once it's figured out, there's nothing to "master" or "get better at" I don't know how this idea would work. What would happen if you fell off a small platform while exploring? Tomb Raider isn't the type of game to respawn you right back above. It's gamey, but not THAT gamey. I propose something like dark souls shortcuts? But I'm not sure how or if that would work for long stretches of exploration.

>>10139640
>Something that can only be solved with knowledge, rather than understanding and execution
Yeah that sounds pretty accurate actually. I had a hard time finding a definition for trial and error that wasn't too vague but you summed it up pretty well.
Glad you can see some things my way too. Don't get me wrong though, I think TR3 is fucking great. It's probably my favourite of the genre. I even like how cruel it can be at times (Lud's Gate comes to mind) because it makes it even more memorable but I think TR1 and TR2 are a bit more balanced and fair and they are the games I would recommend to someone new to the genre. As you said each of them have some unfair moments to varying degrees. TR5 is the only one I genuinely dislike because of the ammount of bullshit it has.

>>10139694
>I think TR3 is fucking great. It's probably my favourite of the genre. I even like how cruel it can be at times (Lud's Gate comes to mind) because it makes it even more memorable but I think TR1 and TR2 are a bit more balanced and fair and they are the games I would recommend to someone new to the genre.

damn, yeah I can definitely agree to all that. I don't really have a problem with people disliking something as long as it doesn't seem biased and genuinely well thought out. Glad I could offer something to you in my definition of trial and error after your perspective helped me!

I'll have much more to say when I'm done with TR3. But my biggest impression so far? TR3 does NOT start as well as TR1 or 2. It lacks the novelty of 1. And the surprising challenge from the getgo as well as the uniqueness of Venice and its boat puzzle. TR3 is very uninteresting so far. And I'm disappointed because the controversial nature of it suggested it would be crazy. Whether that was crazy bad or crazy good. Somebody even said TR3 starts out at Temple of Xian levels (my favourite TR2 level) from the get go, and thats just not true. But oh, how I wanted it to be so bad.

>>10139646
Yeah the save system is not adapted to TR3 imo. It's a shame because I love the idea of making saving an action that has to be carefully considered. It worked pretty well in Resident Evil and added a lot of tension. It could only work in TR3 if the game was playtested more thoroughly to make it more fair but that probably wasn't an option for the devs due to the tight deadlines.

I agree that check points would work better for platforming sequences. They were pretty well placed in TR1 at the end of each puzzle and you could also decide when to use them which added a bit of strategy as well.

TR2 had the easier option and just let you save anywhere. Not as interesting but it worked fine and saved a lot of backtracking.

Playing Tomb Raider Chronicles this game is great

>>10139779
why.

>>10139779
Have you completed it before? I found it interesting in that each level manages to be worse than the previous one. With the first level being almost tolerable, and the last one being a frustrating mess full of game-breaking glitches.

I hope you enjoy it though

>>10139779
I can't speak for how it feels to play overall since again i mostly watched my dad, read the strategy guide, and fumbled around with cheats, but man talk about some cool set pieces and moments

well I think I'm softlocked in the penultimate level?

You were supposed to get 4 shaft keys before going to the inside of the pyramid, somehow I missed the Eastern Shaft Key.

This guide mentions you can backtrack through a moveable block
https://tombraiders.net/stella/walks/TR4walk/details/khufu-5.html

but when I did that (I had already checked that area), for one thing, the block only appears interactable if you pull out a flare (otherwise it looks identical to the rest) but more importantly, it can't be pushed, the crowbar doesn't work, nothing can be done about it... and there are no other ways to backtrack. Anyone knows anything about this?
I think I still have an earlier save I can use but this still fucking sucks especially since I hadn't needed a guide until now

>>10140931
okay so THIS is the moving block that opens the door.... in the area in front of the door... so you gotta find a pushable block that looks just like the hundreds other blocks around to open a wall that looks just like the hundreds of other walls; and if once you get it right it doesn't even make a sound or anything

This fucking blows

and after this shit >>10140931
>>10140973

spoilers

I am rewarded by more copy pasted rooms gallore with stupid puzzles (pour 4 liters of water into a cup but pouring 2+2 doesn't work no, it has to be 4) and the stupidest boss fight I have seen in the series. In the cutscene the amulet is dropped into the water around the arena, so first thing I do during the boss? Check the water of course. I see nothing. I check my inventory, the amulet is there. Okay then that's settled then? Wrong. The amulet is indeed to be picked up in the water, they just forgot to take it out of the inventory after the cutscene.

Once the amulet is picked up, a door magically opens, pull that lever behind the door and a block (that looks like regular rock terrain) which wasn't there before magically appears in another place to let the player progress further upwards

What a huge pile of nonsensical shit. I enjoyed some of the game but the entre final arc is just shitty low effort copy pasted rooms, stupid puzzles and senseless shit like this

>>10140973
>and if once you get it right it doesn't even make a sound or anything

why would it? there's already an animation. and there's a way to figure out which blocks to choose, just gotta use your head. TR4 puzzles are far less obtuse than 3's, and plenty got through fine.

>>10141351
A door that opens without a sound is not normal in any circumstance...
in this case this is especially bad because that door is a giant slab (that should make a sound and they have a sound for it), and because you can't see it or even knew the door was there. One could push the rock onto the floor plate and not even know he solved anything.

You're always defending the undefendable like "why is confusion bad" when said confusion is clearly not intended... I've never seen such contrarianism even on this board, but I've convinced myself you're not real and you just put an act for (You)s (which is why I didn't bother reply the previous posts). I can't believe it otherwise.

>>10141075
>Once the amulet is picked up, a door magically opens, pull that lever behind the door and a block (that looks like regular rock terrain) which wasn't there before magically appears in another place to let the player progress further upwards

sometimes when a lever is pulled, a change can happen in the next room implying something was triggered. I don't see the problem with this. The amulet thing was obvious a bug, has nothing to do with the sequence, so I also don't understand the point of complaining about that as nonsensical.

The "copy pasted puzzle" which is just a traditional symmetry puzzle from any puzzle game since the dawn of time...even chess does quirky things with symmetry with the bishops and their different tiles...but I guess chess is just a lazily copy pasted design flaw...lmao, you're so obviously biased that you're characterizing the most benign shit (like wow! the puzzle demands 4 liters instead of 2+2! heh! it didnt let my le epic brilliant idea go through even tho thats not what it said!) and taking bugs as to be design features or flaws that are part of the game. It's like a teacher picking on the one kid they hate for not having his clothes ironed out, and lost his pencil, it doesn't matter that it indicates clumsiness, since there's obviously nothing the kid could do about it, and it's still benign shit.

Anyway, just wanted to give an indepth response to counter the ranting and raving so that it's stupidness doesn't stand unchallenged with implied validity. This thread is barely alive though, so I can feel comfortable doing whatever I want even if that means annoying him till he decides not to post anymore.

>>10141360
>A door that opens without a sound is not normal in any circumstance...

there are plenty of closed doors like that, but it doesn't matter since it's based on context, and you don't need to hear something to point it out anyway, you can just look. it's likely a bug anyway.

>One could push the rock onto the floor plate and not even know he solved anything.

How is it possible to not know you solved something? If you've pushed it to it's limit, you typically look around and explore further or in the next most related room. This is a you problem.

>You're always defending the undefendable like "why is confusion bad" when said confusion is clearly not intended... I've never seen such contrarianism even on this board, but I've convinced myself you're not real and you just put an act for (You)s (which is why I didn't bother reply the previous posts). I can't believe it otherwise.

Okay? lmao? just because you call something a thing doesn't make it so. That's logic 101. You argue or establish that, and if you can't, then it was too subjective in the first place. Obviously you're not very smart tho and genuinely think your subjective interpretations are reasonable or valid. Frankly I don't care if you respond, this is a free board, a free country. As long as I see something I disagree with, I'll respond as much as I like, and if that discourages you from posting. Then good.

"Contrarianism" is one of those convenient words thrown by the ignorant and conceited at people who wish to view and understand things differently. It was thrown at prosecuted academics and scientists of old. Especially those that went against popular Christian belief. It's a meaningless and arbitrary word often used to prop up somebody's subjective perception as being uncontestable.

>>10141361
>doing whatever I want even if that means annoying him till he decides not to post anymore.

Thanks for proving what I just said about any of this being just poor attempts at """trolling"""
You've already been through the "a bug can not be a seen as a flaw" btw, you're running out of material here

>>10141360
>You're always defending the undefendable like "why is confusion bad" when said confusion is clearly not intended...

Regarding the next and final thing. You are SO fucking unbelievably stupid you don't even realize it. THIS is why bias, presumption, and preconception is SO bad, it allows you to do stupid things like this where you dismiss anybody that challenges your subjective experience before even challenging it. Allows you to retreat to a shell, a bubble, or echo chamber in your head that tells you you're right because you feel like you are.

When you made the proposition about confusion. I made the assertion that confusion is not necessarily bad, and even proposed some ways that it could be bad, in my personal opinion, establishing a grounds for hoe confusion could be viewed. Since you used it so vaguely and ostensibly. You never elaborated or contexualized what you meant by confusion and how it was bad, just retreated to your circular sense of self for it being right because you felt it was "intended" and "wrong".

The entire basis of argument is that because logic is the foundation that grounds us, we can almost always figure anything out, and at the very least reach a conclusion, as long as both parties are being good faith and employing no logical fallacies. As soon as one party decides they're right, and that they can dismiss the other without logical basis, they've tarnished the ability to understand and seek truth, because they are avoiding the falsifiability of whatever notion they mean to assert. I just demonstrated above how that was the case.

This is WITHOUT even getting into the fact that EVEN if it wasn't intended, there are multiple things in games that aren't intended and people can still find fun or valuable

The problem is that nuance is hard, and you don't like it because it can make the simple way you view the world, seem a lot more messy and unclear, which might imply that your feelings are arbitrary and baseless.

End.

>>10141375
>Thanks for proving what I just said about any of this being just poor attempts at """trolling"""
>You've already been through the "a bug can not be a seen as a flaw" btw, you're running out of material here

I mean sure? Take it however you want lol. I don't care, at the end of the day, I'll respond to every single one of your replies with a counter argument you can't address, which doesn't allow anything you say to stand and you can continue to retreat to whatever shell makes you feel comfortable. I dont even want to bother to address this, because once you've gotten into the delusion of projecting your perception of what I meant, as what I actually meant, then you're already a lost cause. Because redefining SOMEBODY ELSE'S argument in a debate is one of the most fundamentally sleazy and fallacious things you can do, since it means you don't even want to respect the inherent objectivity of somebody else's words and intent...

But I'll do it anyway, since it proves my point

Isn't it interesting how convenient it is to remove context when it suits you?

"Anyway, just wanted to give an indepth response to counter the ranting and raving so that it's stupidness doesn't stand unchallenged with implied validity."

I literally put this out FIRST before the greentext you highlighted. Which implies that my first priority was to give an indepth response that challenges the validity of you retarded rants and whining. But the fact you ignored that already say enough, let's move on to the point:

>This thread is barely alive though, so I can feel comfortable doing whatever I want even if that means annoying him till he decides not to post anymore.

"This thread is barely alive" what does that mean? and why would I put it there...hmmm oh! maybe it's that I don't have to feel worried about shitting up a thread and interrupting any other convo or input with my responses because the thread is dead, so I can be as critical (annoying) as I want!

Using one's head is hard

I think I've dealt with him sufficiently enough. The fact he has no counter and can only say "IM NOT TAKING YOU SERIOUS SO WHAT YOU SAY MUST BE INVALID!" when that's a subjective judgment that implies bias and has been used often in the past to dismiss valid claims that would challenge popular belief (most famously galileo) and I could name dozens more, but people think science is most objective, so it's the most convenient analogy.

It's a bit annoying coming on here and arguing with so many people that don't even understand the basics of engagement and argument. But atleast it allows me to sharpen my arguments and dissect red herrings and logical fallacies for future convos. Back to playing Tomb Raider now tho! Peace

>>10138436
I did that too. That’s a sample size of 3. I could barely do the level normally following a guide as a kid

>>10141410
a sample size of 3 compared to what? that's selective bias, just because you can't or haven't seen the evidence for anything else doesn't suggest that you evidence is apt. Especially when 3 people alone haven't played Tomb Raider 3. Or even only 5 people which would be the only way for your assertion to be valid, assuming that the other two got it normally.

point is. you can have a surprising amount of people with poor spatial awareness and sense of direction. There are some people that are just REALLY bad at that stuff, but because they dont introspect, and lack self awareness you project that onto the game rather than yourself, I've seen it SO many times in regards to metroidvanias, in steam reviews, and r/metroidvania posts.

Obviously, there's the added consideration that if it's literally a skip and unintended. Like the opera skip, it's just one of those things that "happen" and is no one's fault really. Just the way things are sometimes. What I DONT understand is that when this happens in metroidvanias people praise it so much for "omg sequence break! so much freedom" but here, the perspective is so one dimensional. Frankly, I actually agree that sequence breaks are bad, but I can understand why people like them, and wouldn't rant and rave about them like the game just fucked my mother. Especially when most of the time they're unintended. It's when they're somewhat intended or allowed that it gets to me. I really like what the hollow knight devs famously did to patch out a convenient sequence break in city of tears.

>>10139002
>That's intended behaviour, it's a puzzle and you have to outpace the boulders or the road get blockeds. Thus it gets resets for retries. It's stupid.
Yeah that's dumb. Glad that I wasn't missing something though and it was just that reset.
Still playing through this first level for the Unfinished Business expansion. Pretty fun first level (thankfully not a shitshow like City of Khamoon which I thought we were going to get a lot of nostalgia for), but I can definitely tell it was behind the "B-Team" at Core so far. Music cues all over the place and usually cut one short by running into another one seconds later, several stuck enemies, and the shotgun being available in two different places. Definitely a nice challenge for those who've beaten the first one though.

>>10142097
What's your issue with the City of Khamoon? The entire Egyptian arc is my favourite part of the game

I'm not sure that Unfinished Business was made by Core? Although the level designer ended up working on a main TR title later on

>>10142108
There were a lot of cheap moments in that level where you will most likely end up dead or need to use a health item, especially the surprise attacks from enemies. The one at the end of the level with the Atlantean is the worst in the entire game since it will most likely attack you inside a passageway with so many twists and turns that makes it difficult to react or even escape due to the narrow walls and ceiling. There was a glitch with the key at the end not opening the final door too and I had to reset and try again before completing the level. The rest of Egypt was great though. The Obelisk of Khamoon and Sanctuary of the Scion are both Top 5 levels for me.

>>10142108
There were a lot of cheap moments in that level where you will most likely end up dead or need to use a health item, especially the surprise attacks from enemies. The one at the end of the level with the Atlantean is the worst in the entire game since it will most likely attack you inside a passageway with so many twists and turns that makes it difficult to react or even escape due to the narrow walls and ceiling. There was a glitch with the key at the end not opening the final door too and I had to reset and try again before completing the level. The rest of Egypt was great though. The Obelisk of Khamoon and Sanctuary of the Scion are both Top 5 levels for me.
>I'm not sure that Unfinished Business was made by Core? Although the level designer ended up working on a main TR title later on
Yeah you're right. It was the Eidos side that made UB. I thought the main dev for it was at Core at that point.

>>10139018
>TR3's crawling, ceiling hanging, mud
You do that a lot less than sprinting which you can't do in TR2/1.
I've been playing Anniversary and the slow run is killing me.
>It didn't bother me as much with the first two.
Those had some whacky long climbing though

>>10142325
I love that climb, even on my 2nd playthrough I still loved it. I have no idea why but climbing doesn't feel like a pain compared to ceiling hanging, crawling, or the mud. It might just be that it puts the player in a favourable point of view which discovers, unlike for instance the ceiling hanging during which you can't see shit (I reaaally hate how you can't look down, not even a tiny bit)

btw you can sequence break during that climb and perform a backflip into that hole mid way through, but the only point of doing that is to be able to kill the enemy from below where it won't retaliate

>>10142325
>>10142349
Also, the sprinting is hardly ever convenient to gain speed during exploration, due to how it works it's only worth using during long straight lines, and even then I don't find it fun how it takes away some of the movement control. Whenever I want to go faster I usually just jump.

>tr2 springboards
Why

>>10142349
>unlike for instance the ceiling hanging during which you can't see shit
Good point, I like looking around while climbing.
On a side note, it's a shame they didn't fix the flare out while climbing issue. It's such bullshit.

>>10139718
>Somebody even said TR3 starts out at Temple of Xian levels
It's been a while but the second level was that to me as a kid.

>>10137574
For those of us who don't know, what's the opera house skip?

>>10142439

See
>>10138885

Big chunk of the level. Had no idea as a kid. Thanks to this thread found out about the Thames Wharf skip, my gosh lol

Who's looking forward to the eventual AI voice replacement mods?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtaNBSBve6E

>>10142325
I might be biased because of levels like Madubu gorge that have very long stretches of hanging and climbing and very little space to sprint. The running speed in TR1/2 didn't bother me as much because it was suited to the scale of the levels (that ladder climb from TR2 being a notable exception, although kinda fun in its own way). Maybe it was just me being a little burnt out after playing the first 2 games back to back before TR3 though

Tomb Raider Anniversary definitely needed the option to sprint though. They upped the scale of the levels without changing Lara's speed which made it feel kinda sluggish in comparison.

>>10142407
are half the people basing TR3 difficulty on when they were a child? it never gets to the amount of density of traps and platforming as TR2 so I was just confused what people meant. Anyway, the most "hardest" thing about TR3 so far is that it feels SO MUCH longer, despite me completing some of the levels in just as much time as past games.

Keep talking shortcuts and anything else you guys like. Let me throw out another question for discussion -- anybody have any cool stories of first time playing the games, moments that blew your mind or scared you etc? I have to say 40 fathoms is terrifying. Cold start in the ocean big open dark space with sharks no thank you sir lol. Need more footage of 40 fathoms with no water. The online level explorer thing is cool tho for exploring the first main area without air meter lol. and some multiplayer mod for t2 had some good footage of it

>>10143120
It felt more difficult than 2 to me for sure but not in a way that was always fair. There are more mandatory deaths to traps that require a perfect timing, underwater mazes, the mine carts, etc... The save system is also a lot less lenient than the one from TR2. There are more areas that are very dark and hard to niavigate. And yeah people are also likely to give up due to the sheer length of the levels.

>>10143406
>And yeah people are also likely to give up due to the sheer length of the levels.

I could tolerate THIS.

if it keeps it interesting like:

>There are more mandatory deaths to traps that require a perfect timing, underwater mazes, the mine carts, etc...

THIS. implies. maybe India is just the worst starting level in the series but all the crazy shit you seem to imply as flaws, all sound much more interesting and elaborate than the slog of gameplay I've encountered with simple and obvious jumps and platforming sequences, and only ONE tight trap sequence that I can remember at the very end of the temple, and even then, that was ruined by the save system.

I used to think the save system was a good and interesting design, but it's so loosely designed that it breaks the flow so hard. Save crystals are given at such bad times, that it just becomes boring run backs where you have to shoot boring monkeys and birds, and make 1 or 2 jumps that aren't actually that hard, but if you're rushing (cuz bored) and make one mistake it'll take you incredibly far back.

I actually thought about this and realized I still managed to enjoy TR2's Temple of Xian despite the save anywhere system. Which would suggest to me that you CAN succeed with that system. I'm still not sure though, maybe I still just haven't seen the save crystals at its best in TR3 yet.

Can't wait till I finally get to the parts that make everybody go crazy about this game so that I can figure out how valid it's "fairness" is. And yes, I already know about London, I'm doing that second last or so.

>>10143369
After getting a 1 or 2 level demo as a kid I obsessed with this game so I got the Gold edition, but I could never beat the game. Irc I couldn't beat most levels and ended up checking out level after level with cheats but I still loved it.

and after that I jumped straight to 4 a few years later and I could solve even less, never made it out of the egyptian levels

>>10143406
Man, I was like 7 when I got Tomb Raider 3 (not the best place to start imo) an the whole game scared the shit out of me. It's not a horror game per se but it nailed the atmosphere in a way that many modern games don't with its use of ambient sounds, restrained music, overall darkness (especially on old monitors). The final boss gave me nightmares as a kid.

>>10143441
Yeah I definitely consider the mandatory deaths to be a flaw in a game that punishes you so hard on each death and restricts your ability to save.

I gotta be honest though, I started using savestates halfway through the first London level and never regretted it. It allowed me to enjoy the level design, figure out the traps and level layouts in a much less frustrating way. Sadly I don't have unlimited time to play video games so I value that time highly.

I still think there is a nice idea behind that limited save system. It adds a lot of tension and decision making and works very well in horror games like Resident Evil or even Dark Souls to some extent. However the game needs to be tightly designed around that system which isn't always the case in TR3 (TR1 was better in that regard).

I think your issues with the game are very valid though. Judging from your impressions so far, I'm not sure you're going to enjoy the rest of the game much more I'm afraid. However It has some qualities that made the experience very memorable to me. I believe it is the first TR game that introduced branching paths in some levels. I'm not talking about optional areas, but entirely alternative routes to the end of the level. There is also a non-linearity to the level selection and even inside some levels that makes the experience more organic and maze-like. Most levels are also very distinct, both visually and in terms of levels design. Some are based around underwater navigation, others are about precise platforming, some are more combat oriented...

I don't wanna spoil the experience for you but if I can give you one advice to make your experience less frustrating it is to do the Nevada levels as soon as possible

>>10144441
meant for >>10143369

>>10144448
>Yeah I definitely consider the mandatory deaths to be a flaw in a game that punishes you so hard on each death and restricts your ability to save.

it's not the mandatory deaths that I don't consider a flaw. I hate when ALL the Tomb Raider games (because all of them do this) do stuff like having to fall down from a long drop that will take nearly all your health. What sounded interesting to me were the things you mentioned with the minecarts, underwater mazes (I'm half half on this but mostly in support of them) and precise death traps. Especially the last one, because it made me love Temple of Xian so much and opened me up to a side of Tomb Raider I never knew. Basically anything that involves skill, or mental awareness (navigation) sounded far more interesting than anything I'd gone through so far because finding the way forward and avoiding traps (except for 1 or 2) has been easy for me so far.

Just wanted to clarify about this, because people think I defend TR3 and think it has no flaws. No, I've criticized it and all the other games many times. I just don't agree with other people's retarded idea of "flaw"

I'll read the rest of what you said and respond now. You don't have to read this, just wanted to get this out.

>>10144809
Mandatory deaths are a flaw because they sometimes lead to 5 minutes or doing mundane tasks like block pushing or redoing a puzzle that you've already solved. Mandatory damage from falls is also a flaw but it's not as bad because the player can reasonably be expected to keep Lara's health full in precaution. Both of those are present in TR3 but not as much in TR1/2 from what I remember (TR2 had mandatory damage from falls for sure, don't know about mandatory deaths, maybe stuff like 40 Fathoms and Temple of Xian?)

I'm curious to know what you'll think about the minecarts in Antarctica and underwater maze in London. They both seemed entirely unfair and independent of the player's skill in my opinion, just like some of the instadeath traps in India. Maybe your experience will differ.

And I don't think you defend TR3 like it has no flaws. One has to be disingenuous or uncritical to think that the Tomb Raider Games are flawless anyway. But it all depends on the player's patience to deal with the kind of stuff Tomb Raider throws at you.

>>10144448
>I believe it is the first TR game that introduced branching paths in some levels. I'm not talking about optional areas, but entirely alternative routes to the end of the level. There is also a non-linearity to the level selection and even inside some levels that makes the experience more organic and maze-like. Most levels are also very distinct, both visually and in terms of levels design. Some are based around underwater navigation, others are about precise platforming, some are more combat oriented...

I mean, this all sounds great and what I was expecting and looking forward to? I can't see how I WOULDNT enjoy the rest of the game, when this is the type of evolution I wanted from TR1 to TR2. Complex large levels that are hard to navigate. While also having very distinct levels visually and in terms of level design that go hardcore on one particular theme. In TR1 that was St.Francis Folly and its immense verticality for me. In TR2, I thought it would have been the underwater levels, but they all turned out to be boring and linear, so it instead surprised me out of nowhere and ended up being Temple of Xian with it's challenging platforming and traps.

Unless there's actually a big CATCH to everything you said. Then theoretically, Tomb Raider 3 should be THE ULTIMATE Tomb Raider game I'm looking for that I can finally put in my top 3 games just because of how much I love the novelty of how Tomb Raider plays. But every one till 3 has had some fundamental enough flaw to me, that drags it down, without having enough highs to contrast that, since any and every game will have flaws, and even my Top 3 does. But the highs are so high that I forget the flaws. That's what it means to be a top game to me. And that ALMOST happened with Temple of Xian. Unfortunately that was only 1 level out of more than 15, and even then Temple of Xian had some problems like being too linear, which is exacerbated by being too long, which is exacerbated by being punishing and hard

On my first playthroughs of 1,2,3 I found about 80% of all secrets. Only 60% for 4, I thought they were easier to find but turns out there were a lot more and it doesn't help that you have no idea how many there are per level.

On my 2nd playthrough of TR1 I found all secrets except 1 on fucking Natla Mines, it would have been any other level I'd have replayed it a third time but fuck me this had to happen in the worst level.

TR2 second playthrough: found all statues except one, the Golden Statue in Ice Palace;
and I replayed the level twice (so 3 times total). Well I don't feel bad about it, it's basically Wolftenstein-tier "check if every wall is moveable"... which is something I actually did in some areas of the map, just NOT in the first area of the level because
1) you get the White Statue right at the end of this area and there NEVER was 2 statues in the same area before
2) usually, though not always,the white statue is the first one to find and the Golden Statue is the last one.

I wouldn't generally complain about secret places of all things but fuck this one

just made it to this part, and yeah, it's bullshit and cringe. Still liking Nevada overall so far, and one instance of this hasn't ruined the game yet, we'll see when we get to the supposed "more" instances.

Looking at this jump again. Yeah, it's exactly like the jump in TR2 diving area. I have no idea how these jumps arise and what the problem is, it's obviously unintended and some weird oversight. Even when you make the jump, the game realizes it's weird so it sort of clips you to the platform. This happened the same way in TR2 diving area, all I can do is just take it as an unfortunate quirk of this part of the level and move on. Not much to say otherwise.

>>10145985
>I wouldn't generally complain about secret places of all things but fuck this one

honestly I think 90% of the secrets in these games are almost always bullshti and require you to think so far out of the box that it's ridiculous, or to literally play the game...not as it's actually supposed to be played.

>>10146149
and I thought most secrets in TR1/2/3 were extremely simple, you just need to look around to find them or in the worst case, realize there is something to be done/found in the area. Which is why this one in Ice Palace really stands out.

>>10146043
Yeah that one is pretty infamous and made me waste like 10 minutes trying to find another route. I can't think of other oversights of that kind in TR3. There is the ticket machine but that one is not related to Lara's moveset. I hope you enjoy the next level, it's a favourite of mine. The Nevada levels were kinda nice and straightforward.

>>10145985
That one secret in the Lost City of Tinnos is the true final boss of the game. Finding all the secrets in that game doesn't sound too engaging to me anyway but they're entirely optional so it's fine.

>>10146226
Yeah well I don't think I'd ever attempt it in 3, I just don't like the game enough. If I could make a custom version of the game that takes out all the levels I don't like, maybe...

Duke Nukem Time to Kill btfo TR3

>>10146256
True, now that's one game I'd love to replay on a higher skill and attempting all secrets/challenges

>>10146256
objectively inferior level design. anybody who says otherwise got filtered. you can complain about traps and platforming all you want, but TR3 levels mog it in scale, complexity, and variet. it nice guns or whatever I guess if you like that stuff.

>>10146280
Never heard of that game but it looks neat! Honestly I would take any recommendations for games similar to Tomb Raider. More specifically, 3D action-adventure games with a focus on platforming and puzzle solving in maze-like levels. Its not an aspect I find often in modern games, certainly not in modern Tomb Raider games...

>>10146384
Time to Kill is a bit lighter on the puzzles and has a bit more emphasis on the action but it's definitely a TR clone, it has the same movements

it has a jetpack which is really cool to bypass some platforming you're sick of or reach a secret

>>10146226
>The Nevada levels were kinda nice and straightforward.

>"straightforward
>Area 51 exists

not that being not straightforward is necessarily bad

>>10137574
I was going to emulate the first game and then I remembered OpenLara exists and I can just play it natively in RetroArch like OutRun Cannonball. Just need to set it up first

>>10144241
Dude, that was me. Cheat my way through, legit beat great wall and maybe Venice. Start skipping etc. Then bam how could you level skip in 40 fathoms when the level started in water was the problem lolol. Think I managed to get to dry ground and keep going, good times. I wore the strategy guide out, still have it stashed away last I recall

>>10144441
I feel you, the lighting especially in the water with the shifting shades was spooky, an amazing atmosphere. The underwater demon in chronicles with the coin, man I don't know if I ever did it but looked spooky in the guide for sure. Water areas mega spooky

This thread inspired me to pick up the classic games. They were on deep discount too (and will be for a few more hours on Steam), so it felt really easy to make the choice. I have known about the series for decades, and even played the demo on some PC gamer CD way back when, but somehow never gave the series its proper due. It's definitely time to rectify that.

>>10147479
That's great, please keep us posted and have fun!

I forgot how great these were. I'm going through TR1 atm, but I can't wait to get to the 1st level in TRII. It was one of the first games I ever played on my PSX Christmas Morning. It came as a demo with many other great games like Parappa, Armored Core, Intelligent Qube, etc. It took me a long time to master the pit and I figured the demo would end once I got to the tower at the top but I was surprised and excited that there was more and got a really challenging but fun game to play. We immediately bought the first one and got through that before I made one of my best friends over this tiger at recess one day in school. He kept telling me about this game I already played where you can kill a tiger. He never believed you could get out of that hole in the beginning, but I told him it was possible to get out of that hole and I was going to prove it to him by going over to his house to play PlayStation with him. I made it past the pit and choked at the wall spikes at the end of the demo, but we both decided to play through it together, sharing memory cards to copy each other's games to help each other get past levels one of us couldn't handle and fucking up the Secrets since I never collected them. We fucked up Barkhang Monastery right away and we had a nightmare dealing with that one. Good times. But yeah, good level. Pretty hard for a newcomer, but it's a great welcome back challenge for veterans of the first one.

>>10147806
>He never believed you could get out of that hole in the beginning

What hole?

>>10148957
The one you start in

>>10149079
so, how do you get out of it?

>>10149176
skill

>>10149420
that's vague and I have skill

>>10144441
TR was always more horror than action. I've never seen a series more out of touch with its own soul. The advertising made it look like MTV meets Indiana Jones, while traipsing around the first few levels of TR feels a lot more like being lost in an empty maze.

I've gotten to area 51. This is the infamous level I've heard people get filtered by in the TR3 demo, and say they get lost, so I expect good things in this level. After this it's just the Pacific, then London. India disappointed me with jungle levels, let's hope South Pacific is fun and complex

>want to continue TR4 playthrough from years ago
>skip to Alexandria
>get to puzzle where I need crowbar
>don't have crowbar
>must play train level first for that
>uninstall duckstation
TR4 is such a slog sometimes. Way too many filler levels.

>>10151783
filtered.

>>10151792
I already had 2.5 playthroughs and it's the most boring of the Core games. Still better than CD stuff though. The Soul Reaver games used to be my favourite, but damn does the gameplay not hold up the way TR does.

>>10151809
I've never though of Soul Reaver to be good gameplay wise. Game just isn't tightly designed or considered enough, if there's any game I'd expect to do well with Soul Reaver's design structure or whatever it'd be Tomb Raider, since I actually like the idea for SR, just hated the execution. But we'll see for myself when I'm done with TR3

>>10151792
>>10151874
Have you played TR4 already?
The guy who did Temple of Xian made the City of the Dead levels (with the awful bike). That's where I actually got filtered as a kid. Having to snipe shit and not being able to do it with the basic pistols was certainly game design.

>>10152017
>The guy who did Temple of Xian made the City of the Dead levels (with the awful bike).

HOLY FUCK I have mega respect for Temple of Xian now, If this is true, this either sounds like it'll be the most creative and crazy level, or...highest highs with lowest lows. Jesus, I can't fucking wait, maybe it wasn't TR3 that I should have been looking forward to. But Last Revelation.

>>10152164
you do know that a level designer is capable of making different types of level right?

the City of your Dead levels are your typical "stop & go" vehicle level but I liked them a lot, it's nothing like Xian

>>10152194
>you do know that a level designer is capable of making different types of level right?

I believe in his creativity. Sense fortress and Blighttown are also different levels, but they have that same soul of creativity, complexity, and challenge

but we'll see. it's to be decided.

>>10152164
>maybe it wasn't TR3 that I should have been looking forward to. But Last Revelation.
You haven't played the notorious levels of TR3 yet. Thankfully a big chunk in the middle of TR4 was also made by Peter Duncan and Andy Sandham, sandwiched inbetween milktoast.

>>10152393
>You haven't played the notorious levels of TR3 yet.

problem is that nobody actually mentions what the notorious levels I'm supposed to be looking out for are except for London.

No idea who Peter and Duncan are though, they don't sound like the guy who I think did Temple of Xian, and I'm not aware of any legacy levels they've worked on in prior games so...

>>10152424
Tinnos is nice and gives TR1 vibes.

>>10152443
>gives TR1 vibes.

I've gotten TR1 vibes from the whole game since the start. The atmosphere might unironically be better than TR1, just so much more subtle detail In the sounds, music, more diverse animals etc. Feels much more naturalistic and adventurous, TR1 felt too enclosed and artificial at times. I honestly think it's atmosphere is overrated asf.

>>10152464
The main issue with TR1 is the complete absence of skies. Even in the add-on, which has a black starry sky, it feels cheap because it's just regular non parallaxed ceiling texture.

I get the theme of the game is "thombs", it makes sense, but some places really could have used a sky to make them feel more real and less claustrophobic. In some cases it feels like they even try to hide the ceiling by making it as dark as possible to try and mimic a black sky like in Sanctuary of the Scion

Seeing a sky for the first time in TR2 was refreshing, they even make a big deal out of it with the cutscene with the helicopter at the very start of the game.

>>10152424
>notorious levels of TR3
>River Ganges, where you will discover whether you like quadbiking
>High Security Compound, where rocket launchers go to die
>Thames Wharf which is quite shitty
>Aldwych which is fairly shitty
>Lud's Gate, which is very shitty
>Madubu Gorge, which is actually really fun if you're autistic for paddling but otherwise intensely frustrating
>RX Tech Mines, where you will have trouble with the trolley, eh?
>Tinnos, which is perhaps the finest climactic level in the classic games and which will make you grind your teeth to pegs

>>10152935
I liked the Mines and Tinnos.

But by that point I was completely numb to the bullshit, for the minecart I was like
>oh yeah of course you can't see what kills you ahead with enough time, even if you manually change the camera angle
>I mean why would you this is TR3
>Fun level though

>>10149441
>>10149176
I know what that guy is talking about. After you shoot the tiger and wade through the water and do some basic jumps, there is a hillside you have to climb with slidey slopes and other moves that aren't that hard, but if you skipped the tutorial and haven't understood the game yet, it can feel like you're going the wrong way. The path is not obvious like it is to an experienced player and it took me a while to realize that I have to figure out for myself which places are safe to jump to and where I can reach, and that's the intended style of the game. After that I was hooked.

>>10152956
It is technically possible. The ducks and swings are fast, and you always want to hit them. The speed regulation is actually easy when you listen for it: there's basically a maximum speed, above which the cart sounds wrong and you'll die on any curve. The minimum speed is harder to gauge, but generally you never want to go much slower than the maximum either as you will always safely stop at stations.
I don't know if it's reasonable to no-death blind run it, but once you've ridden one cart all the others should be doable.
I actually think the kayak is fine as long as you realise that most drops are safer if you're going backwards to resist the current. However, the final drop via the plughole is basically bugged and costs far more health than it should.

>>10152995
Not that anon but just curious, is this drop comparable to the drop in TR2's The Deck? Any other infamous mandatory health losses in these games lol

>>10152995
>However, the final drop via the plughole is basically bugged and costs far more health than it should.

my only problem with it too. funny how 90% of problems/criticisms can only be able bugs instead of actually gameplay, comes across as hardcore uhhh what's the word...something like..."overcompensating" I think lel

>>10152963
>The path is not obvious like it is to an experienced player

oh? is it just the intended path through? I was struggling so hard to understand what he meant lmao, he made it sound like some glitch where you just shoot out above the whole you slid down lmao

>and it took me a while to realize that I have to figure out for myself which places are safe to jump to and where I can reach, and that's the intended style of the game. After that I was hooked.

but yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head, I found the right way instantly, I actually struggles with the next part where you fall into the water, but thats because my brain was being stupid and didn't process that I got the key to unlock the door, so I spent ages jumping around the edges trying to find a way lmao.

what I will say is that you figured out exactly the appeal of these games for me: figuring out and understand where to go and what jumps/movements to make safely to progress. In my opinion St.Francis Folly and Palace of Midas is the PEAK of this gameplay so far, and Temple of Xian is a more linear twist on it with danger and challenge. You'd be surprised how little the game actually does what you're talking about (or that might just be because I'm intimately intune with this gameplay, so much so that I'll DELIBERATELY avoid the intended path to go explore without realizing it, and by the time I go back to the intended path its "obvious)

something I've learned in recent times that explains SO MUCH of the complaining, is that so many people just experience and view these games differently. There are a lot of people that complain about "not knowing what ledges you can grab" or the "terrain not being clear" when I've never had this problem. So it just seems like I have a different kind if spatial awareness and sense of navigation in games, which is doubly funny because in real life I'm always absolutely lost for how to find the way somewhere without a map.

>>10152935
>>River Ganges, where you will discover whether you like quadbiking

I personally like almost all vehicle sections, I just love that they're a neat twist on Lara's basic movements where you have to manage more imprecise movements, for just faster and/or better movements in general, it's just a different expectation and demand for precision, which acknowledges itself that Lara doesn't have to be slow to still be expected to pull off precise movements, but at the same time, Vehicles are a LOT less punishing, since there are often literal roads with low drops made for you, so you also on the other hand come to appreciate the unique precision and challeng that Lara being slow induces.

When Tomb Raider does shit right man, it's like nothing else...BUT I have to caveat. Not because brainless retards that shut off their brains thing i can't criticize stuff, but because the fact I'm still talking about the game while they're not, proves not only that I actually care about the Game, but videogame analysis is general:

I had a problem in riverganges where there were a lot of routes and paths that I NEEDED the quad bike to progress with, but DIDNT realize it till I watched a play through. There are a lot of divergent paths that are VERY close to the real path that the game will show you and so you'll think you just have to use your moves smartly to get there. But it's virtually impossible without the vehicle. I don't think that's necessarily bad, I personally actually think it's a flaw that the boat puzzle in Venice can technically be completed without the boat. That diminishes and trivializes the puzzle, so I did it deliberately with the boat because I appreciated the puzzle (and didn't want to waste time figuring how to do it without it) and the eureka moment.

I still think River Ganges was shit overall, because it didn't feel satisfying finding the way forward and I remember literally just stumbling to the next level with no thought and I hated India overall.

>>10152995
>I don't know if it's reasonable to no-death blind run it, but once you've ridden one cart all the others should be doable.

No way. Every minecart ride has different expectations for what the player's actions should be even in similar looking situations. Like you do a first minecart ride, you're expectated to lean to make a turn; you do a second mine cart ride with a similar looking turn, leaning doesn't work and instead you're just meant to slow down just enough to make the turn and the jump after the turn too

There are other situations like this, there is no way for the player to know which speed he should be at and which move he should use in any circumstance because most circumstances are different

>>10154318
how are some people THIS slow? this is unironically the equivalent reading comprehension to the: Teacher! this question wasn't in the textbook! how am I supposed to solve it!"

Is critical thinking so lost that people actually don't realize that some problem doesn't have to be EXCATLY the same, to still be solved with fundamental understanding? Is there even any point in me bringing this up, when the fact that this anon made the argument in the first place says too much?

I'm nta btw, just noticed how... "not engaging with the point" this logic sounded, and that triggers me, so I had to point it out.

>>10154318
Off hand, I don't think I used the lean on the carts. Keep your speed to the level where the cart sounds "right" which is admittedly a bit of a sketchy thing. Then duck any low objects and hit any switches. That's it, that's the carts.

>>10152935
Only RX Tech Mines are problematic, but I managed it as a kid.
It's not nearly as trial and error as the average souls game

>>10154318
Don't argue with this guy, he shits up every single TR thread with inane garbage about how much smarter he is than everybody else

>>10154807
That sounded like a different guy, I'm not answering to the gay furfag anymore nor reading his posts past the first 3 words (usually recognizable it's him). Pure definition of contrarian, I believe it's a trait of some gay furfags, "everything right is wrong, everything good is bad, and vice versa; this is what I tell myself this way fapping to Tails getting it in the ass by Sonic is okay"

>>10154807
>Don't argue with this guy, he shits up every single TR thread with inane garbage about how much smarter he is than everybody else

Strawman and adhom. boring.

>>10154812
>That sounded like a different guy, I'm not answering to the gay furfag anymore nor reading his posts past the first 3 words (usually recognizable it's him). Pure definition of contrarian, I believe it's a trait of some gay furfags, "everything right is wrong, everything good is bad, and vice versa; this is what I tell myself this way fapping to Tails getting it in the ass by Sonic is okay"

Something you'd realize sooner or later if you weren't retarded is that there's no such thing as a "pure definition" of something because so many things are dependent on context and subjective determination that blanketly saying "pure definition of x is retarded" You know how I KNOW this is abundantly true? You used a literal 3rd graders tier analogy, where instead of applying an example and it's exact characteristics to what you were criticizing, you literally used circular level of logic, with ZERO application or contexualization.

>"everything" is right is wrong, everything good is bad, and vice versa

is literally worse than a strawman because like I said, it used circular logic. It justifies itself by the fact that it has applied a broad definition, instead of by the fact that a certain characteristic of the circumstance in the example matches the behaviour being criticized. It is UNIRONICALLY like saying "You did a bad thing, therefore you are bad!" What "bad" is, is subjective and undefined. You haven't justified the use of that word for it to mean anything, aka you haven't contexualized it's relevance to reality.

The classic example is "The word of God is true because the Bible says so", "So why Is the Bible true?", "Because the word of God is true, and the Bible is the word of God". The equivalent of "the word of God" for you, would be yourself". You're argument is self referential.

I don't think this puzzle needed 4-6 loading screens, but ok.

The coastal ruins clusterfuck would have been one level in TR3.

>>10155407
>>10155482
loading screen shit is really unfortunate, some of my least favourite parts of the games since you die a fuckton, and an unfortunate quirk of that era of gaming. My guess is that they couldn't get the soul reaver level of seamlessness because the game was infinitely more complex in overarching mechanics, interactions, and even just movement/platforming. The puzzles are a lot more diverse and elaborate in TR4 than Soul Reaver. It's unfortunate because it really would have been nice.

>>10155490
I have the suspicion that they worked on seamless transitions, but couldn't get it done in time. There are several nothing rooms that take long to traverse (climb into a 1meter hole, climb out of it into an empty room, climb into a 1 meter hole, climb out of it) and are near the loading screens. It's a shame they didn't clean up the bloat afterwards.

>>10155521
> There are several nothing rooms that take long to traverse (climb into a 1meter hole, climb out of it into an empty room, climb into a 1 meter hole, climb out of it) and are near the loading screens.

That's just done so there is less architecture from the level ahead to load

there is at least one level that doesn't respect this and the architecture actually differs in the previous level compared to when you enter it, it's a bit weird

>>10155521
> There are several nothing rooms that take long to traverse (climb into a 1meter hole, climb out of it into an empty room, climb into a 1 meter hole, climb out of it) and are near the loading screens.

That's just done so there is less architecture from the level ahead to put in the current map

there is at least one level that doesn't respect this and the architecture actually differs in the previous level compared to when you enter it, it's a bit weird, either it was simplified to use less space or it was an early version of the level ahead

>>10138885
I had no idea about this! Glad I checked this thread.

I finally decided to give TR4 a try and it's been pretty fantastic so far. It feels easier than the earlier levels of TR3. Mostly due to the fact that most of the traps will only damage Lara instead of being instant death traps. They generally feel more fair and better telegraphed.

The game looks amazing too, it's very colorful and detailed and has a nice contrast between the bright outdoor areas and the darker, more atmospheric rooms inside the tombs. The lighting is spot-on in either case.

The only thing that's kinda been bothering me so far is how inconsistent the level lengths are. It has more named levels than in the previous entries but some of them are barely levels and take 15 min to complete while others are way longer. The previous games had a clear beginning and end to each level and gave you statistics when you completed one. This gave a satisfying sense of achievement that's kinda missing in TR4.

Anyway, I just reached Alexandria. I can't say I look forward to the tedious backtracking that the game is notorious for but I'll keep an opend mind.

>>10157681
It's nice that you can shoot the ball from the ground with a shotgun. I wish they made sniping not mandatory later on though.

>>10137574
Where should i start with this franchise?

>>10157681
>traps will only damage Lara instead of being instant death traps
what about spikes, heavy weights, fire, pits?

>>10157692
I didn't know you could shoot the ball from the ground. It's pretty cool. It's kinda stange to expect the player to shoot that ball in order to remove it from the pillar anyway. But since it sticks out from the rest of the architecture it's not too bad. I'm glad I knew about the underwater doors because that shit makes very little sense, especially with how the underwater doors worked in the previous games. I'll keep an eye out for weird stuff like sniping with a dedicated weapon or using the binoculars for puzzles. So far I don't have many issues with the level design though.

>>10157706
I suggest you play in release order. TR1 still holds up very well today imo and the later games are a natural progression in difficulty. Enjoy it, they're great games.

>>10157709
Yeah I guess there are technically instant death traps like in TR3 but the areas that required precise timing and platforming were also less punishing and allowed me to try again in most cases. They were nothing compared to some of the sections in TR3 that required perfect execution from the start and were very likely to kill most players on their first attempt. I might just change my mind once I reach the more difficult levels of TR4 though. We'll see

>>10157681
You just haven't played enough of the game yet, it left a good impression on me at first too. Outside of the subpar combat (guns feel like shit and the AI are shit, and it only gets better for a few levels near the end game); but then again I actually liked TR2/3 combat a lot

>>10157781
I liked how in TR3 you'd wait for an opening, sprint towards the enemy guns blazing and then hugged their back. Combat, although simple, was mostly skillbased.
In TR4 for some reason they gave gunmen the ability to pivot while shooting, so you couldn't avoid taking damage with basic pistols. But then again you got full heals for backtracking through loading screens.

>>10157913
Yeah exactly. And then the uzi guys are like
>I'll shoot a small burst and then wait a while before shooting again!
Only reason they do this is exactly because of the rotation so they balanced a shitty idea with another shitty idea.

And then the guys that shield themselves are just a chore

I enjoyed the skeletons though, and the Merc guys in the end game are fun to fight but they're only in one level set; but that's about it for this game.

It would have been nice if you could put out fire by rolling a bunch.

I find it very interesting how people use the word "fair" when talking about videogames. That's all

>>10158367
Why not? Games aren't supposed to keep their players out like a proper defensive perimeter is.

>>10138848
You can also skip a portion of The Deck around the location in screenshot, if I remember correctly.

>>10159240
I did that on my first playthrough, could only figure out the correct path on my 2nd play

still my favourite level in the game

>>10159240
There's a banana jump skip in Temple of Xian too, I think. Plus people have demonstrated reaching the dagger early, though there's nothing to do if you manage to.

>>10159207
yeah, and your premise is fundamentally wrong. what is considered "keeping players out" to many is considered "a challenge to overcome" 90% of the time, criticisms about "fair" are just people projectiving their faults as a flaw on the part of the game, when there are others that can contend with the same thing and enjoy it just fine, and value it's "defense perimiter" you inherently begging the question by framing it as a defense perimeter based on your subjective interpretation of it on interaction with it. It reminds me of the dozens of Journo articles that complained about Sekiro and said it should have an easy mode, then when I went to play it and got used to it, I realized the parry window was INCREDIBLY lenient and you didn't even have to perfect parry everything to win. It was just about mentality, and understanding. The game was so surprisingly forgiving that I couldn't possibly understand how somebody would want the difficulty lowered, because it felt like the experience and satisfaction would be destroyed if it was any easier or "fairer".

The point is that the way people use "fair" isn't remotely objective, and the incredibly self referential way they can use it, would limit the degree of satisfaction that developers could bring out of games. I'm not saying a game can never be unfair. Just that people don't often use "unfair" to actually mean "unfair" it's just an expression of their subjective proclivities, more like "I struggled with this more than I wanted to, so it's not that fair, or it's unfair, or it **could** be fairer"

End Point.

>>10159275
hearing stuff like this makes me want to watch tomb raider speedruns

>>10159464
How many head pats do you want for being super good at games, anon? Just write it down for me and I'll come give you the requisite praise for your skill at children's time wasting diversions later.

>>10159657
lol.

>>10159240
>>10159275

Can we get some more details lads? How it works etc? Banana jump I can imagine is like opera house, the mid air curve jump. But I'm not totally familiar with the flow of the deck level, what in that screenshot is there to skip etc?

>>10157781
Man, I just finished the Alexandria levels and they are a HUGE step up in complexity. It's still very enjoyable for me but if the next levels get any more convoluted then I have a feeling I'm gonna get filtered soon. I guess I was kinda lucky not to miss any major items. From what I understand, if you miss some items the game will completely halt your progress much later on and make you backtrack through whole sections. This is questionnable design at best.

There was also more shit like >>10155407
or the slow as fuck planetarium puzzle. The combat doesn't bother me too much though. Even if I prefer the combat from TR1/2/3, I didn't spend that much time fighting ennemies so it's not a big issue for me (yet)

>>10159464
>"fairer"
Sekiro was legit fair compared to all the other Souls games to the point that /v/tards constantly complain about it being too easy.
With the 2nd chance system it could have had more of that Elden Ring bullshit and it still would have been fine.

Is it possible to softlock yourself if you don't pick up the laser sight? Technically you can do the first sniping puzzle with without, but what about later?

>>10160737
You need it later on but they provide a second one right where you need it. Second one which sadly just disappears if you already have the first one so you can't even equip both weapons with it, stupid.

>>10137574
I only played the original, which other tomb raider on the ps1 is worth it?
Note that i'm not the biggest fan of its combat so less combat more puzzling is preferred

>>10160773
TR4 is the puzzliest, but it also has the shittiest combat

Which tomb raider games focus the most on combat and least on puzzles?

>>10160804
2 has the most enemies I think

>>10160804
Definitely 2

Decided to try Chronicles and so far I'm enjoying it more than I thought I would

BUT THEN There is this shit....

>>10137574
Whats the concensus in ranking the ps1 classics?
I really don't know and also don't want to play all 4 of them (in a row)

Frm what I understand it's like this?
TR2 > TR1 > TR3 > TR4?

>>10161113
I love 1 as much as 2 but for different reasons, the rest is downward spiral

>>10161097
I really enjoy the section with the mutant teen lara

>>10160804
2. But it's repetitive as fuck. Hide in the corner, wait for human enemies to approach, roll on to their backs, shoot until they 180, repeat until they are dead. Combat only gets interesting towards the end (peaks at Floating Island IMO - Nightmare in Vegas has some interesting human enemy setups).

>>10161113
There basically isn't a consensus.

>>10161113
There is no consensus really, but I'm pretty sure the most popular ones are either TR1 or TR2. But depending on where you ask, it'll typically be either TR1 or TR4, and depending on where you REALLY ask, it'll just be TR3.

I think I've personally seen TR1 and TR4, at the top the most, they seem to be Interchangeable for people, but I think I've seen slightly more TR4 ontop.

This is me basing this on the abundance of Tomb Raider threads I've been in on /v/ so it's VERY anecdotal, for "norimies" tho (as normie as you can get with the classics) i'm almost certain it's just Tomb Raider 2 on top then 1.

Don't worry tho. The closest thing to objective will come soon once I'm done with TR3. I'm still on Area 51, and the auto track laser sight enemies that shoot you with their last dying breath, and those surprise electric slope platforms I crawled on without even realizing when I tried to explore further triggered me to no end, and now I'm hating the save system even more and struggling to find the genuine value in it.

>>10160804
tomb raider 2 focuses on combat
tomb raider 3 focuses on puzzles
tomb raider 1 is mix of both which is why it's loved the most

>>10161410
>tomb raider 3 focuses on puzzles

tomb raider 3 focuses on exploration/platforming (ehhhh)**

tomb raider 4 focuses on puzzles.

>>10161427
>(ehhhh)**
?

>>10161097
oh boy, good luck anon. The game is deceptive by having a decent first level. That section in the kitchen is nothing compared to the bullshit that you'll have to endure in the later levels.

>>10161113
As the other anons said there doesn't seem to be a consensus. They're all quite good for different reasons. TR1/2 are probably the most balanced in terms of difficulty and pacing and are a good place to start. Tomb Raider 1 being one of the most iconic and genre defining games of its generation.

Tomb Raider 3 is still my favorite and the one I consider the most memorable and rewarding. But it requires a lot of patience to tolerate some of the unfair bullshit the game will throw at you. Not a good place to start imo.

I'm only halfway through TR4. It's quite good so far. It looks more like a continuation of TR1 but with much longer levels.

Just stay away from TR5.

Legends was the best one.

>>10161467
Not actually that much platforming, atleast not for how many levels are literally just running on foot through corridors and planes and crawling through shit.

Feels like Tomb Raider 1 actually had way more platforming, and the only level so far to give me that same sense of TR1 platforming was Nevada Desert, and even that was fairly simple (like TR1 tbf)

But then again, I haven't finished TR3 yet, people will say it's platforming galore...then you find out they're ONLY talking about London and you're like: "okay..."

But that's to be seen I guess.

what the fuck was her problem?

>>10161639
no phone to call home makes ET pissy

>>10161639
she's mad she doesn't have enough meat on her bones, and therefore isn't as thick and cute as Lara

>>10161639
Always thought this was a sort of tribute to Prince of Persia, probably wasn't though

>>10161704
Considering Tomb Raider is basically "PoP but in 3D and with guns" that's probably where they got the idea from yes

>>10161724
>Considering Tomb Raider is basically "PoP but in 3D and with guns"

PoP is one of my favourite games, and it does not play at all like Tonb Raider.

The simple fact of having to manage weight and turning in 3D, aswell as the levels employing verticality, and swimming far more, aswell as traps having to be engaged with differently alone makes it a completely different experience. I played Tomb Raider because I thought it would be like PoP but there have been dozens of games like PoP and almost none like Tomb Raider, that alone, including all the other stuff I mentioned make them different experiences WHOLLY.

Their major similarity, is just the fact that walking is a button and fall damage matters.

>>10161583
Coastal Village, All of London, Nevada Desert, Madubu Gorge, Temple Ruins, and most of Antarctica all have tons of platforming. I don't know what the fuck you're smoking.
Also, did you do Nevada last? You crack smoking moron.

>>10161772
Ico and soc are the only good tomb raider clones

>>10162282
>Nevada Desert
Nevada Desert is one single level that's short as fuck and loses its platforming focus halfway through you fucking retard, way to miss the point, bringing up single levels. Also you are BEYOND retarded if you count "Temple Ruins" with its single invisibly platforms, and that one tiny sequence with the water falls as "platforming" holy shit you're genuinely retarded. I already brought up all of London as an example so all your other examples don't disprove my point anyway that out of like 20 levels the degree of engaging platforming or challenging exploration is so isolated it doesn't matter. Even if the rest of the game ends up having greater platforming, the degree to which it's barely present in the beginning is still a mark against the game.

>Also, did you do Nevada last? You crack smoking moron.

No you retard, I picked it second dumbass.

>>10159756
You jump across the platforms to reach the top (a straight jump won't reach that height), skipping the inner section entirely, if I remember correctly. If I replay TR2 in the future, I'll try to record it.

>>10162301
It's easier to list the levels without platforming.
>Jungle is mostly flat
>Temple of Puna is a very short boss stage
>Caves of Kaliya is the same
>Meteorite Crater is the same
>High Security Compound has moments but is fairly flat overall
>Area 51 has a couple of setpieces but more corridors
Everywhere else has at least one if not more extended climbing and jumping sequence.

>>10162449
>Everywhere else has at least one if not more extended climbing and jumping sequence

Hmm maybe it's cuz I just came off High Security Compound Straight into Area 51 and it was just extended linear corridors, so it all just felt boring and samey. I don't necessarily mind no platforming if the exploration is actually interesting and challenging. But my view might just be distorted by extended sessions of no platforming levels in a row. I guess I'll see how South Pacific is to make my judgements for sure, but I still think it's bad how stale India to Nevada is. A very very weak beginning. It's hard to believe it'll get better when you've already been through a bunch of boring levels in a row.

I don't feel challenged at all.

>>10162519
You're going to see the game pick up for sure. South Pacific and Antarctica are the best sections of the game.

>>10162526
ahhh, that's good to know atleast, thank for the heads up. I look forward then :D

for anybody that remembers this part.

this part has so many stupid bullshit trial and error knowledge checks that I HAD to use save states just to maintain my sanity. it's not about it being hard, or challenging, it's just about the fact that the game through a surprise at me that I had no way of answering or overcoming without knowing before hand. Not to mention the multitude of accident falls and drops that just sometimes happen because Lara is just hard to control. No, not bad to control, just hard, she requires effort and focus. And when you've just ran down the same corridor ten times now and just want to finally get to a new part of the level, you make mistakes.

I just don't want to waste my time running down the same corridor for the 50th time because of a surprise trap and me being tired of it all making me play sloppier. There's no execution and no challenge to overcome after the first time or even during the first time.

This wouldn't be nearly as bad with quicksave or TR1's save system, because I remember making just as many accidental falls in St.Francis Folly my first time playing Tomb Raider, or getting got by traps my first time too. It's just BAD in this game I don't know why, it's not worse in intensity or bullshit, since the games have always had that. Its the save system. And you want to know the funniest thing? I'm a hoarder, so even while complaining about all of this, I literally have 3 save crystals in my bag. "So why don't you use them" because I never know how far into a level I am, or when ill get my next crystal (oddly enough i havent gotten a crystal yet in Area 51...(despite 30 minutes already having gone by) So there's always that risk of using a save crystal literally right before the level ends and wasting it.

I dont know. I'm still going to continue with save crystals since I'm already in too deep, and using save states is inconvenient on my deck, but I expected the save crystals to bring tension and a demand for good execution.

>>10163448
I played the game recently and I have no idea what that is

>>10161503
>That section in the kitchen is nothing compared to the bullshit that you'll have to endure in the later levels.


Okay then I think I'll give up right here. The game had potential to be better than 4 in my book but if I get stuck on bullshit like this every level and have to check a walkthrough it's not going to be fun for me, I'd feel like I might as well not be the one playing

>>10161373
>But depending on where you ask, it'll typically be either TR1 or TR4

The only reason I can think of why people would put 4 at the top would be the level editor. TR4 has like 5k levels made for it from what I've seen

>>10161772
>Their major similarity, is just the fact that walking is a button and fall damage matters.

There is more than that though, the way you have to approach the end of a platform with walking to avoid falling, the two different jumps with different lengths (standstill and running jumps, the later of which needs enough platform space to get a running start), grabbing and hanging from ledges, safety drops, etc even just the "realistic" movement animations was not a given in 96, and in this case said movement is largely tied to the grid-based architecture like in PoP.
And then there are all the traps like the the spikes (that you can safely walk through), the teeth door, the crumbling floor plates, etc

TR managed to be its own thing to the point hardly anyone makes the connection (unlike say, Resident Evil vs Alone In The Dare) but the roots are definitely there. I mean even the number of tiles you can jump with each jump (2 with standstill jump, 3 with a running jump) is identical

>>10163448
Is that the part with the electric floor and metal grates that make you fall with no warning? That was pretty bad. I also played on a deck and the select + r1 combination on duckstation was very handy for these parts. Get ready though, because there are more parts like these coming in the later levels.

It's too bad the level design doesn't really allow you to see when the next tough part is coming. That would have made the save crystal system a lot more meaningful. As it is it's pretty normal to try and go as long as possible without using up your save crystals. But then you trip on the edge of a block and have to do the whole thing all over again.


Anyway, I FINALLY completed the Cairo levels in TR4. That was pretty rough. It felt like the longest and most complex level layout I've encountered in a TR game but at the same time it's fairly easy and monotonous (has a few cool looking areas, but not many). Let's hope the final levels are better because this was a big step down in quality compared to the earlier levels which were pretty fantastic imo

>>10163653
> Let's hope the final levels are better

They're the worsts of the game. The game would have been better off stopping right at Cairo.

>>10163653
>It felt like the longest and most complex level layout I've encountered in a TR game but at the same time it's fairly easy and monotonous (has a few cool looking areas, but not many).

depending on how complex it is, then it seems more and more like TR4 is the actually evolution of Tomb Raider I'm looking for. Not TR3.

>Is that the part with the electric floor and metal grates that make you fall with no warning? That was pretty bad.

yup. that's the exact part. I died so much in retrospect to things I didn't expect, that I genuinely believe I wouldn't have the patience to finish the game if I couldn't awkwardly use save states. it also had the horrible HORRIBLE misfortune of including actually threatening hitscan enemies, which is a genuine CRIME to me. dragging down the level even more. Even when it got to the semi cool moment and reveal of the aliens and alienship, I literally couldn't give a fuck, because everything was a slog and I was STILL getting ambushed by hitscan enemies while IN the ufo.

>Get ready though, because there are more parts like these coming in the later levels.

Yeah. I don't expect it to get better in THAT regard. The save system is too fundamentally broken.

I just finished Nevada, and I want to quit the game already, Area 51 left a bad taste in my mouth because for all its worth, at the end of the day, it was just a bunch of linear corridors that try to pretend to be complex, but really isn't. The only way Tomb Raider can justify a lack of challeng in my opinion, is with complexity in exploration and making navigation a sort of puzzle. Area 51 was a disappointment in that regard

Apparently the next set of levels should atleast be a step up in platforming or exploration in contrast to area 51, so I can only hope that even though there's more trial and error bullshit, there's also some good level design and platforming sequences to contrast the bad with good. I'm honestly looking more forward to TRLR at this point tho.

>>10163453
>Okay then I think I'll give up right here.
He's talking about the catsuit lara part.
Try teenage lara, which is the only good thing about chronicles.

>>10163691
>I just finished Nevada, and I want to quit the game already
People have been warning about the bullshit save system ruining the experience.
Do yourself a favour and use savestates for london.
Also don't get overhyped for TR4. It's lot's of filler and slog and just falls off in the last 3rd.

>>10163747
>People have been warning about the bullshit save system ruining the experience.

yeah, but the way people were warning about it easnin such a vague and subjective way that it ultimately communicated nothing other than "I didn't like thing because...it was too hard or punishing?" Like that could mean SO many different things, and what's hard, or punishing, or tedious for some, isn't for others.

People think objective means "right or wrong" no. It literally just means, making objective verifiable references to the GAME. Not your experience or interpretation. To what ACTUALLY happens and how thing PLAY out. Not using vague subjective words like "boring" or "unfair" or "horrible".

Nobody will ever actually listen to or understand this, because human beings are so fundamentally anti logic naturally that people just cannot process the value of this principle even though it's inarguable. Not to mention that people are also just lazy and shallow when it comes to conversation. Ugh, if just one person actually went into depth about the problems of the save system like I have been this entire thread I could have understood more about it to make my own informed judgment, and then I'd take the L completely for choosing wrong.

I mean. I ultimately still take the L, but whatever. If you want something done. Do it yourself. And I unfortunately needed to experience it for myself to understand. *sigh*

>>10163780
Fair enough.
It's not like using savestate is 'cheating' in TR3.
In the PC version you could save freely and the crystals gave you health instead.
I think they made the PS1 version extra mean to sell more guide books.

>>10163823
Because guide books for PC games isn't a thing?

Saving freely was standards in PC games but not on console, that is the only explanation. Stop turning everything into "evil corportation was out to fuck with the player!!! we were robbed!!" meme, this is tiring

>>10163826
Fuck off shizo.
PC players most likely also had access to the internet and gamefaqs has been a thing.
Consoleros absolutely drove the guidebook market in the 90s.
>evil corportation was out to fuck with the player!!!
Your words, in reality it was greed.
And EIDOS has been demonstrably greedy.

>>10163863
>every PC had a internet connection in the 90's

Nice zoomer revisionist assumption. And plenty of PC games had guidebooks regardless.

>>10163867
Your reading comprehension is amusing, /v/tard.

>>10163873
You easily fall back to low effort insults after your opinion was proven to make no sense

Only reason you said this about guidebooks is because you heard it from someone else who heard it from someone else who heard it from someone else who was just making a shitty assumption out of his ass, and nobody in that chain ever spent a second to question whether it ever made sense.

>>10163875
You proved shit, how naive can you be?
Explain to me how big C isn't incentivized to push their _official_ guidebooks they make money off of.
Holy shit, the brainrot.

>>10163894
>Explain to me how big C isn't incentivized to push their _official_ guidebooks they make money off of.

Yeah right this makes sense. They don't allow infinite saves on console to sell strategy guides, but they allow it on PC because... well I guess they just don't want them to sell that much right?

>>10163867
By the late 90s most (not every) prebuilt PCs came with inbuilt modem. So every home with telephone access had internet access. Not saying everyone used gamefaqs, but the guidebook market was destroyed by gamefaqs (and internet in general), That's a fact.

>>10163916
The number of household with internet connection in the 90's was still low, you're backing up assumptions with false "facts" just because you're afraid to admit you were repeating a meme opinion to begin with

>By the late 90s

The decision to have infinite saves on PC and limited save on console was from TR1, released in 96.
For all we know that decision was made before they even knew the game would successful enough to warrant a strategy guide.

If there is one sensible explanation is that standards for saving being different from platform to platform. Doom allowed to save anywhere but when ported to console almost always that got shifted to limited saves.
As for the "why", it may just be a remnant of the "boss key".

>>10163915
>They don't allow infinite saves on console to sell strategy guides
Didn't even say that.
What I meant where the boatloads of bullshit and secrets (which the savecrystals are part of).
See downright corner.

>>10163923
>TR1, released in 96
We're talking about TR3, released in 98(late 90s).
The times have changed by then.
Remember that TR2 had unlimited saving on PS1. They wanted to get cheeky with TR3, but it didn't turn out well. So they backpedaled in TR4.

I'm not even condemning to push for guide books. It meant more content for me.

It's like arcade game being made extra hard to drive quarter munching. You're not denying THAT too, or do you?

Dunno about TR, but adventure games back in the day had extra hard puzzles so people would call some expensive hotline to give the solutions.
Greed always drives gamedesign for better or worse.

>>10163731
I was talking about both actually. The catsuit Lara part is downright broken so most people will agree about that. The Ireland levels were just meh for me. The atmosphere is cool but it has some unsatisfying puzzles like having to make a slingshot to shoot a random wooden beam. It's similar to the part in the kitchen the other anon mentionned. I guess it's subjective. I don't even recommend giving up because it's a relatively short game but I don't want him to get his hopes up for the later levels

>>10163780
>Not using vague subjective words like "boring" or "unfair" or "horrible"

I don't agree with that entirely. When it comes to TR3, "unfair" is not a subjective term. There has been plenty of references to the GAME in this thread that can prove it. There is just no way a player new to the game can complete sections like the minecarts, underwater maze in London without dying once unless he has external knowledge about the game, or gets extremely lucky. This even applies to earlier levels with some of the spike traps or mud pools that were previously talked about in this thread. Especially with the restricted save system since save scumming is no longer a viable game mechanic like it is in TR2/4.

I agree that "boring" is a subjective term and I can only give my subjective opinion about that. For example, I think high security compound is the best level with the premise of removing Lara's equipement. More entertaining than Natla's Mines and Offshore Rig because the player actually has to face and outsmart the enemies in the level. But regardless, the Nevada levels were still boring for you and I can't argue with that. I still don't think you'll enjoy the next levels much more if you weren't already sold on the India levels. I hope you will. I agree with the other anon about not getting overhyped for TR4. It still beats playing the Tomb Raider reboots I guess.

Is it normal for TR2 to play the Caves music from TR1 in the Opera house level or is the Steam version just fucking with me?
I also noticed side jumping is fucked. Something about needing to replace Steam files with the original CD files. Man PC ports are a joke

>>10164409
I actually don't know how that's possible.

>>10164409
>Is it normal for TR2 to play the Caves music from TR1 in the Opera house level
yeah
you will also hear the heartbeat song in TR3

>>10164476
That ambient noise? Yeah, they reuse that. Really makes you think: the classic TR games have less than an hour's audio in them, total. One of the later Far Cry games has like seventy hours of just speech. How far we've come.

>>10165216
>How far we've come.

lol.

>>10165231
I mean, it's not like a McDonald's used to have 1000 calories and now has 100,000. Games have really grown.

>>10165216
>How far we've come.
less is more
I mean there is a reason why FROM has absolutely dominated gaming the last decade.

>>10165328
I assumed it was them chasing the internet tough guy masochist market. No fucking pause button? Fuck off.

>>10165356
>No fucking pause button? Fuck off.

you're a loser holy shit lmao.

>internet tough guy masochist market

not to mention the fact you think this market is even remotely close to big or prominent enough, says even more about you. lack of intelligence and being shit really do go hand in hand.

>>10165383
>describe pigeonhole
>immediately filled by angry pigeon.

>>10165392
>make no counter argument
>assert delusional strawman that doesn't engage with point that literally proves one of their points wrong
>thinks mischaracterizing oppositions argument isn't a red herring deflection

>>10137574
Sorry /vr/os, I have to on principles of fuck tranny jannys.

>>10165414
Holy shit you're serious.
From make bad games. Boring, overly repetitive, needlessly difficult games with nothing burger world building. Deliberately removing quality of life features twenty or more years old in the medium. Their popularity is proof that the demographic who want internet goodboy points for completion is too big. That is literally their core fanbase.
You immediately corroborated this assertion by acting like a wounded honey badger when this was pointed out.

>>10165440
>From make bad games. Boring, overly repetitive, needlessly difficult games with nothing burger world building.

And you're serious? lmao.

>Deliberately removing quality of life features twenty or more years old in the medium.

what's quality of life to you, is just "make sure da baby has his pacifier :'(" to me, and any self respecting individual. Tutorials and cutscenes that interrupt gameplay have been a standard for more than a decade now. So we're QTE's. If you're GENUINELY unintelligent enough to make the argument that fromsofts game design is bad for not being garbage handholdy bullshit that seeks to take you out of the game (pause menu unironically does this, fuck off and kill yourself if you cry over this. I respect their commitment to immersion and not interrupting gameplay.) Instead of any actual argument that doesn't reveal your shallowness and need for convenience. Then really?

You don't really have an argument. Your just appealing blindly to homogenization and conformity. Thank you for your contributions to top corporations and all their battlepasses and DLC's! and Gacha! Such considerate companies, thinking about what the consumer REALLY wants! that's why they make so much money :p

>>10165460
Of course games should be convenient, you clown, they're for fun. Your commitment to immersion just suggests your phone never rings and nothing is happening in your actual life. Try committing to a job or a family.

>>10165356
>No fucking pause button? Fuck off.
I know this is a yahtzee bit, but quitting out of the game is the pause function.

>>10165481
You have anons upthread REEEing about save crystals and now down here justifying two loading screens every time my beer is empty.

>>10165486
>two loading screens
considering TR4 needs 6 loading screens for a puzzle it's not too bad

>>10165486
>You have anons upthread REEEing about save crystals

not the same thing lol idiot. imagine not even understanding this.

>now down here justifying two loading screens every time my beer is empty.

go wait at a bonfire. and learn to manage your time and activities better

>playing South Pacific
>exploration seems good so far
>get to the huts
>see hut with health pack
>go in
>quicksand
>"okay, I realized it quickly! I'll just turn around and crawl out"
>just drown instead
>close game.

might be time to install TR4, I thought I'd be able to tolerate this a bit longer, especially since it felt like the game was showering me with save crystals since I found two very early (that I didn't use, because I still felt too early into the level) and was ready to just save once I got to the second one after exploring the area...just to fall into a quicksand hut that I had no way of knowing, and reacting to as soon as I realized.

TR4 might have loading screen problems, but it has quicksave, and can't possibly be as annoying as TR3 for that reason alone. Also I've heard the levels are smaller which means even if i encounter a slog of a level, it won't be a level that thinks its complex enough to waste my time when, no, it's not complex, it's just loooooong. I don't know how I'm having such a bad time with this game. It's yet to reach the level of TR1 or TR2 difficulty spikes. It's just boring and tedious.

>>10166070
that one was pure bullshit yes, especially considering the floor texture and floor height are identical and AFAIK there is no way to pick up that medipack, at all. Just one of those completely free "fuck you"s which set TR3 apart

If you keep playing eventually you may become numb to the bullshit and should be able to enjoy antartica. Also the plane crash level after this one is really cool.

>>10152746
Lost Valley in OpenLara gives you a sunset skybox

>>10166070
Quicksand floors visibly move, idiot.

>>10166070
Ok I replayed to that part just for you (btw getting those 3 gems gave me a harder time than anything in nuRaider lol)
Webm related is not one of those bullshit parts everyone lists, as you can see.
I don't get it. People will defend genuine garbage gotchas in Souls games, but stumble at THIS.
I assume you are tired or unexperienced and not yet another bad faith actor.
TR4 will not be for you, that I can assure you.

>>10166359
I bet he bunny hops everywhere like a fucking moron.

>>10166359
Even with PS1 crust (everything wobbles) this trap is clearly telegraphed.
All those years I went with the flow and said it was bullshit.
Today I will put my foot down and say it.
It's fine akshually.

>>10166070
>I don't know how I'm having such a bad time with this game.
The wonders of priming. One might think to be above social manipulation, but no. Everyone is susceptible.

>>10166381
Fair point. Can you jump to catch the medipack though? TR3 had a few moments that had you cross mud pools to get safely on the other side so it sounds like a fair assumption

>>10166070
>I've heard the levels are smaller
The levels are big, but cut up into zones.
Think Resident Evil.
The problem is there are lots of empty transition areas that make the game really boring at times.

As usual this guy is either an idiot or disingenous on purpose

>mud usually has its own texture
>here it's the same as the other ground texture nearby

>mud is usually on a different height level
>here it's on the same height level as the ground nearby

>this is setup with 3 copy pasted huts
>the other 2 huts are safe to walk through
>not this one

>other huts have pick ups you can get
>here this a medipack but it can't be picked up at all

it is a first time play death trap, the devs trolling and getting a kick out of killing the player just for laughs and to waste his time

Also, guaranteed this guy fell for it on his first play, like everyone.

>>10166407
No, all mud, but we all fell for it.

Just the other day I got blindsighted by a similar trap in TR4 and quit the game lol

>>10166429
Are you really ignoring the obvious tells as shown in
>>10166381
>>10166359
Yes it's trolly, but c'mon. Same for the medpack on the fire trap.
I thought gen z acquired media literacy.

>>10166440
Oh yeah, I did that level three days ago. That trap pissed me off a little. The hole in the floor was obvious enough but jumping over it did not cut it for me. Oh well.

So far TR4 doesn't seem to have nearly as many gotcha moments. Maybe I get this impression because of the better save system. Maybe I just learned to accept this stuff after TR3

>>10166456
>Maybe I get this impression because of the better save system.
Yeah save systems make or break games.
I wonder how many notorious parts in TR3 have a clearly visible savecrystal as warning sign and reminder. On my TR4 playthrough I actually forgot to save often and got annoyed. Manual saves
cumming isn't that great of a system either.

I thought I got the game, but then it got me.

>>10166485
Ah, the sentient boulder. That one was kinda cartoonish. Not too bad though, at least not as bad as the easy as fuck puzzle that required you to backtrack through loading screens for 10min.

I'm not sure I remember the save crystals from TR3 being used as a warning sign for a tough challenge. I think they were kinda randomly scattered across the levels, sometimes they were rewards for finding a secret area.

TR1 was more deliberate in that area. Sometimes giving you two save crystals for a single challenge, like in that fire pillar room in greece.

>circuit board in water
TR2 is dum

>>10166525
you have to back flip and/or side flip these sorta things, or literally run off to the side immediately

>>10166402
>The wonders of priming. One might think to be above social manipulation, but no. Everyone is susceptible.

primed how? I'm pretty sure I was one of the few people actually looking forward to being impressed by TR3. What do you mean?

>>10166525
This entire boulder is dumb indeed, the whole setup with the rope makes it look like it can be interacted with or that it's part of a puzzle. At first I thought I was supposed to crush the skeletons with it. Shooting the rope should have done the deed indeed as well.
No, it's just a regular trap. They should just have made it go down a slope like the usual.

>>10166674
>>10166661
you can burn the rope, but it's pointless

>>10166359
>>10166381
The fuck are you talking about? Technically EVERY single trap in the game is telegraphed in retrospect, even the electric platform in Area 51, if you get extremely close without assuming it's a normal platform, you can see it pulsing. There isn't a SINGLE trap in any of the games that you can't say isn't "telegraphed" even the grate right after that, that's drops you back onto those electric platforms. If you look up before running, you'll see monkey bars and can just climb instead.

This is such a retarded defense. The huts are all laid out the same, there's ZERO reason to thing one hut would be different for just no reason, and the wobble is SO subtle unless your literally just deliberately standing still to check it.

The extra stupid thing about your reply is that I LITERALLY did EXACTLY what you did in that webm. The only difference? I must not have had the same luxury of knowing what it was before hand, so I was seemingly half a second slower or something. I don't inherently have a problem with unfair bullshit like this. Dark Souls has a lot more, and it's my favourite game ever. But I'd argue that except for 2 or 3 moments, the game prepares you for things like that, by destroying your expectations early, and making death very punishing, while also fair, encouraged a different kind of carefulness there's also an execution factor almost always, not to mention the game also has a good save system.

IN TR3, there's almost zero execution factor, and expectations are established poorly (I never encountered an electric platform before, or quicksand, EVEN LITERALLY IN THE BEGINNING OF THE LEVEL, it was mud, I had no reason to think it would be anything else. The very beginning of the level should have had a challenge involving it.)

Anyway, I've already said this and I'll say it again. Tomb Raider 3 isn't hard. It's just tedious and boring. What I encountered there wasn't hard, the execution was simple. It was just a matter of knowing.

>>10166485
>Manual saves cumming isn't that great of a system either.

Agreed. Despite disliking TR3's save system currently. I don't actually think save scumming is better design, it's just the lesser of two evils, I didn't like having to save every second in TR2. But:

>>10166535
>TR1 was more deliberate in that area. Sometimes giving you two save crystals for a single challenge, like in that fire pillar room in greece.

This guy is actually right. It had its problems too, but TR1 save crystals felt more deliberately thought out, while still maintaining that level of "manage your saves"

I don't remember feeling THIS frustrated with TR1 and it had arguably just as much surprise traps because of the novelty of being the first game of its kind, I had zero idea what to expect at first.

>>10166525
Yeah it's pretty bad that you can't just shoot the rope. I found the torch very easily in that section and there is a fire source right next to the boulder so it was obvious enough that I could burn the rope. What actually bothers me is that the boulder is triggered for no apparent reason when Lara steps under it. I didn't know you had a chance to avoid it by side flipping though. It's kinda cool to have an alternative I guess.

>>10166716
Its kinda weird that the very first game of the series actually has the best save system. TR3's save system had the most potential but a terrible execution. I still think TR1 is a bit easier and more fair overall, even with the fact that it's the first in the series. But maybe that's because I learned stuff from more recent games that were inspired by it.

>>10159657
to be fair you need to have an IQ of above 100 to not get filtered by video games made for c h i l d r e n

>>10165440
go back to your jrpg containment thread pedo

>>10165470
try committing to a rope and a noose

>>10166696
>I never encountered an electric platform before
fair enough, but through cultural osmosis you should know blue zappy shit is ouchie
even TR1 is more obscure with the midas hand trap
>or quicksand, EVEN LITERALLY IN THE BEGINNING OF THE LEVEL, it was mud, I had no reason to think it would be anything else
now hold the fuck on, the mudpit in the beginning of the level is a refreshing reminder if you blanked out on the mudsee in india
>Tomb Raider 3 isn't hard. It's just tedious and boring.
Why not just admit you're a nuRaider tourist looking for some quicktiming action. It's fine to not care about hardcore(not the same as hard) exploration in games. There is plenty slob just for you out there. But no need to be retarded about it.

>>10166834
>I learned stuff from more recent games that were inspired by it.

what games?

>>10166696
You sound like those clowns over at /v/ shitting on DS2, but fully embracing ER for nonsense reasons.
>it's boring!
so is your favourite game

>>10166873
holy shit. don't know if this is worth replying to, you're worse at defense than I was.

>fair enough, but through cultural osmosis you should know blue zappy shit is ouchie

I can't tell if you're retarded or not? But I just went through area 51 more recently, so it probably just retardation, and there is no "blue zappy thing" retard. The pulse isn't even blue, and it's not something you can see from a distance, you CANT even see it from the main platform, you have to go to the platform on the sides, and it's like a subtle white/pale pulse.

>even TR1 is more obscure with the midas hand trap

yes, and that helps my point. There is LITERALLY a save crystal RIGHT beside the Midas hand.

>now hold the fuck on, the mudpit in the beginning of the level is a refreshing reminder if you blanked out on the mudsee in india

why the fuck am I even responding to this? beyond the fact that the mud fundamentally works differently, already had expectations established, and also I LITERALLY brought it up myself which should mean I understand what it does.

It still doesn't change the fact that the quicksand blended in with the floor and looked no different than the other huts at a glance, and the wobble was subtle and could even be argued to be mistaken for the natural wobble effect that ps1 games were known for. Not that that was my problem, it's just a point, my problem was that it was a surprise trap with no execution, and no established expectations because THE MUD IS NOT THE SAME.

>Why not just admit you're a nuRaider tourist looking for some quicktiming action. It's fine to not care about hardcore(not the same as hard) exploration in games. There is plenty slob just for you out there. But no need to be retarded about it.

o...Kay? I mean good for you I guess? You can think whatever you want, but dark souls 1 is both a harder game exploration and combat wise so I don't really care that I'm not "hardcore" by your arbitrary standard...lol.

>>10166873
>even TR1 is more obscure with the midas hand trap
Not the anon you're replying to. To me the Midas hand trap is a notable exception in TR1. It is an entirely unfair trap BUT it has a cool unique death animation and actually give you a hint about what you're supposed to do with the iron bars in that level. The developpers also put a save crystal right next to it if I remember correctly. It's pretty clever and deliberate. I fucking love it.

>>10166892
I wasn't thinking about any game in particular actually. I just assume that most 3d game developpers whould know about TR1 with it being such a successful first step into 3D action adventure gaming. My point is that TR1 is a pretty fair experience overall if you have a few notion of 3D gaming conventions. It might not even require that knowledge like the other anon implied by saying
>TR1 had arguably just as much surprise traps because of the novelty of being the first game of its kind

Now I WISH I could cite modern games that follow the same design principles as TR1 and are as enjoyable but I can't think of any. I'm open to suggestions

>>10166909
>subtle

>>10166990
>>10166909
>white
go ahead and use a color picker m8

>>10166909
>There is LITERALLY a save crystal RIGHT beside the Midas hand.
The is literally a save crystal right beside the mud hut. Are you legally blind or something? The clearly wobbling mud is clearly illuminated by a spotlight. It's your fault you didn't pay attention, madboi.

>>10166990
yeah, that's pretty fucking subtle when you're coming into it a new area for the first time surrounded by a ton of lighting and you're not looking to the side for no goddamn reason. facing forward you can't see shit dumbass. Not to mention that it's still subtle since it pulses on an off, so you can miss it easily if it's not packaged in a neat retarded clip which already has prior established context in a 4chan thread, and can be stared at for aslong as possible since that's the only thing to focus on.

And even IF I give you that it's easily noticeable the first time (which it isnt) that doesn't change the fact that there still ZERO reason to even know what it does or will do.

But this entire shit is disingenuous, and I've already countered it so I'll stop there.

>>10167023
>The is literally a save crystal right beside the mud hut. Are you legally blind or something? The clearly wobbling mud is clearly illuminated by a spotlight. It's your fault you didn't pay attention, madboi.

why the fuck are so many people so stupid about this? I literally answered all of this in the initial complaint:

>the game was showering me with save crystals since I found two very early (that I didn't use, because I still felt too early into the level) and was ready to just save once I got to the second one after exploring the area...just to fall into a quicksand hut that I had no way of knowing, and reacting to as soon as I realized.

I even had 4 save crystals already before all of that, so I could have saved anywhere. The point isn't that. It's that you're incentivized to hoard crystals and use them scarcely because you can go through entire levels like Area 51, where the game just randomly drops two save crystals at the end. One of which is a secret. And you also can never make an objective judgement of time, so you don't want to just use a save crystal immediately at the start of the level since that'd be a waste, or right at the very end since that'd also be a waste

>>10167136
this is retarded
people have been recommending to play TR3 with savestates for decades, yet you're so stubborn and just run into obvious dangers, despite knowing firsthand that you have to pay attention.
you're ruining one of the best games in the series for yourself and others with your disingenuous /v/tard bitching

>>10167231
fuck off and kys. addressed none of my arguments. useless retard.

This is such bullshit, what was I supposed to do!?
Why yes I AM a zoomer, how did you know?

>Technically EVERY single trap in the game is telegraphed in retrospect

>telegraphed
>in retrospect

The worst thing about dumbasses like this is that they genuinely think they're the smartest guy around

>>10167276
shoot and learn to walk. it's not bullshit, you just don't think.

>>10167283
How would I know if the game didn't tell me?

>>10167308
the game tells you everything you need to play. you just have to think about how to orient Lara to get to the right way.

>>10167270
My webms completely dispelled your mudhud myth and all you got was
>I fell for it, so it's bullshit, trust me bro
You zoomed and got doomed. It's not the first time it happened.
Learn from mistakes.

>>10167334
>My webms completely dispelled your mudhud myth and all you got was

No they didn't lmao, but if you need to tell yourself you won the match, like a player that wants to pretend he's a referee then go ahead. This conversation was bad faith and retarded from the moment that I had to link an argument from the initial complaint that started this all.

it's not like you saying you addressed anything suddenly makes it so, and if you care more about that in the face of me saying otherwise then the conversation was meaningless in the first place.

Now stop mentioning me and go play with yourself over your self proclaimed win.

>>10167276
Lol, good job

why is a submarine wreckage full of angry Italians, and what do they eat?

>>10167308
read the manual deadass
DO IT!
it has pretty pictures and won't take long i promise
but you have to read the manual or you will miss out on important game mechanics
on screen tutorial pop up prompts going over every single action you can do weren't a thing in the 90s
games used to come with booklets called "manuals" which you were expected to READ BEFORE you started playing the games
unthinkable nowadays and akin to a troll I kno but that is how it was broski, you gots to read the fucking manual

Yeah, you guys weren't lying about the INCREDIBLY shitty final levels of TR4. It's just a very long stretch of linear, repetitive and ugly levels.
Pic related is one of the rare moments I had to use a guide because this shit makes no sense at all. It's made even worse by the fact that you can completely ignore this part only to get stuck 30 min later with no idea of where to go.

It's even more depressing because the levels up to Cairo were some of my favorite levels of all Tomb Raider.

I guess I'm done with the Ps1 games. It's been fun. I'm glad Lara's dead

Downloading TR4 right now, reached my last straw when I fell into those a fire trap that I knew was there by accident because apparently the game didn't register that I pressed jump. Even though I died due to the game seemingly not recognizing an input, I'll take it as my fault and gladly boot up Last Revelation instead once it's done downloading :D

>>10168160
It's downloaded. This will FINALLY be the Tomb Raider game that is top 10 worthy. No, Top 5 EVEN. I believe, I FUCKING BELIEVE. YOU ARE MY LAST HOPE. MY LAST FAITH. MY LAST...Revelation...

HAHAHAHA I TIED THAT IN SO WELL

>>10168406
I cannot believe they included unskippable tutorials. I just glitched into some weird platform that you have to jump on a slope for? And now I have to start the tutorial all over again •_•

The only solace is that kid Lara is cute

>>10168525
you can skip the entire tutorial with this cheat:

>face perfectly north (climb on top of a platform if you can't find a ledge to hang on fast enough)
>go into inventory
>hover over "Load"
>HOLD L1+L2+R1+R2+UP and make sure to press triangle while holding everything I said prior.

can skip straight to the race part of the tutorial, and if you want to skip the whole thing just hold again

>>10167423
It's a cruise ship I'm pretty sure, not a submarine. It's full of angry Italians because if I'm remembering right, the main bad guy Marco Bartoli's men are searching the wreckage for the key item (can't recall name lol) that you use to open the way into the catacombs in Tibet i think. As for what they eat, considering they've got frogmen down there kitted out, they've come prepared

>>10168675
Dunno if it was only chronicles, but the levelskip cheat can apparently break the game.

Or you miss out on keyitems and have to cheat even more.

Wasn't an issue in TR1-3.

>>10168406
>ips bleed
you're covering that shit up with a widescreen hack, right?

>>10167276
How could I have known?
Old games are so much worse than modern games!
yadda yadda

>>10169325
>you're covering that shit up with a widescreen hack, right?

wdym? I'm just playing it how it came, is there something wrong?

>>10169298
>Dunno if it was only chronicles, but the levelskip cheat can apparently break the game.

only did it for the tutorial anyway so I should be fine

So what do us tomb raider fans think about this ugly fake bitch? She's lazy hires an obese indian woman who worships cows to make cosplay guides for her and is praised by gay incels on twitter anytime she farts.

>>10170284
who?

temple of xian is fucking brutal

>>10170669
and arguably the best level in TR2 and a top 10 Tonb Raider level atleast

Playing Tomb Raider 2 on PC. It is so much better with the fog turned off with Tomb2Main, especially the Venice levels.

>>10171113
*Tomb

>final level requires the one movement you never needed to use in the entire game
what were they thinking
i'm glad i ended up figuring it out but i was legit stuck for half an hour
the last two levels are pure sadism

>>10172190
you can go the other way through the traps if you just tank it and use medpacks

>>10172297
>Dude just take damage
Nice "route"

wow, been playing last Revelation and its just weird. Even though the levels feel relatively small and disjointed, for some reason I get that same sense of "pure exploration" feeling that I remember having from the beginning to middle of Tomb Raider 1...I don't get it, I've been trying to wrap my head around why it just feels so much more pure and less Linear, despite being relatively simple and straightforward so far.

I'm at Karnak right now, will see how things continue, really looking forward to this game showing me everything it's got. So far, it seems like it might have the potential to reignite the feelings of adventure and exploration I first got with Tomb Raider 1. It feels like this game is gunna pull a St.Francis Folly or Palace of Midas any second now

>>10172627
yeah it sucks but it at least it exists as a plan B, I bet many people did it that way

>>10171113
>designs his first and only level in your game
>it ends up being the best one
What a chad.

>>10172190
ah man I miss those bold colors
brotip you can reduce the seams if you turn off texture filtering

>>10172848
If the bike didn't control like SHIT I would have liked Cairo more in TR4. It's also by him.
And of course everyones favourite London.

>>10172848
wait, Andy did it

>>10172848
I ALMOST want to finish TR3 just to how his level design changed/evolved after Temple of Xian...but apparently he did some levels in TR4? So I guess I should be good.

I really want to know which game he designed the most levels for, because that'll almost certainly be the best game...atleast in the challenge aspect. Heather might still be unchallenged for traversal and exploration, I'm not sure. For a game that's so focused on adventure and exploration, there's actually a surprisingly few amount of levels that are genuinely non linear/complex to navigate. I could legit name them on my finger.

>>10172883
>What was your role in the first three games of the Tomb Raider series? What levels did you design?

>TR1 - I sat in on most of the level design meetings to give input. I was designing maps for other games at the time.

>TR2 - The Temple of Xian - this was a nasty trap-filled monster.

>TR3 - I did Coastal Village, Crash Site, Madubu Gorge, Temple of Puna, Nevada Desert, Area 51 and also had to give Lara's house a new look.

lol seems like he is the reason you ragequit TR3

>>10172925
>lol seems like he is the reason you ragequit TR3

I didn't rage quit -_- I impatientquit otherwise known as "got bored"

but anyway:

>Coastal Village
garbage

>Crash Site
don't even need to play it to know it's garbage. combat focused level.

>Madubu Gorge
sounds interesting, and gives me temple of Xian vibes, could be horrible knowing the save system.

>Temple of Puna
probably garbage if any of the black native enemies are in it and charge at me

>Nevada Desert
good first half, boring linear second half.

>Area 51
bad. linear. trial and error traps. too long for its own good. unironically like 2 save crystals in the whole level and one of them is a secret.

Seems like he can't do actual complex level design well. I can see some of his temple of Xian philosophy with some of the traps in area 51, but otherwise, unimpressive.

>>10172959
>don't even need to play it to know it's garbage
way to give objective judgement, you salty clown

>>10172190
That's because you didn't play Tomb Raider 1's Unfinished Business.

Floating Island was the best level in Tomb Raider 2, BTW.

>>10172984
>way to give objective judgement

never claimed it was objective judgement. and funny you cherry picked the ones I didn't play and ignored the ones I commented on and did. I explicitly mentioned them all because it could look like cherrypicking on my part if I left out some.

>>10173072
>never claimed it was objective judgement.
see
>>10161373
>The closest thing to objective will come soon once I'm done with TR3.

>>10173094
you're retarded and can't read, I said "when I'm done" and also I've already gave far more indepth critiques prior, it's not my fault you're genuinely to illiterate to read. I don't have to reply to every comment about TR3 with paragraphs. Kill yourself and don't respond to me again. last (You)

>>10138552

Map designers love to inflate their work.

>>10173185
>I said "when I'm done"
you ragequit
see>>10168160
>Downloading TR4 right now, reached my last straw
you're done and made your opinion about these games worthless with bad faith bitching

>>10172190
I don't even remember how I managed to get past that part. I remember trying that jump a few times and just failing over and over untill I got lucky. Was it communicated in any way that flipping mid-jump would give her more reach? Or is there something else I'm missing?

>>10173512
You swan dive into it

>>10173512
>>10173537
You have to do a big jump but press Action like you're doing a ledge grab, this makes you cover the extra pixels needed

actually I can't tell if that's the intended way or if it's the swan dive, it's so stupid you can't even tell what the designer wanted

>>10173543
Yeah I think I eventually tried pressing the action key. The swan dive looks cooler but neither seem like options I could find out using logic.

Hmm. Santa's groto.

>>10161704
Completely. It never gets acknowledged as an influence yet is so similar.

>>10173868
Collapsing platforms, accurate long jumps, ledge dangling, spike traps, sliding doors of bifurcation, run walk and step by step, and the character animation.

>>10161772
You have brain damage.

>>10173882
>>10173876
You guys are retards. They don't actually play alike wtf These are surface level descriptions that can apply to every fucking game.

TR's animations are far more indepth and practical, and her standing forward jump has far more verticality than the Prince's showing a more deliberate consideration for 3D and complex traversal. Not to mention the side flip, backflips she has that would never and could never exist in PoP or swimming being a significant part of traversal. Or the level design structure being wholly different and non linear, or open ended. There are also no pressure plate switches, no times where you fall through a cracked floor to grab on to a ledge right below. Tomb Raider like to do: "Jump onto ledge shimmy till you can judge safe distance to fall safely down and grab the ledge right below far more.

There's also the obvious fact that she has a different weight to manage. The Prince feels FAR more stiff than Lara, if you've ever watched a Tomb raider speedrun you'd realize how much range of movement she has, and the game constantly and frequently asks of you diagonal jumps that fuck with your perception of distance. It's not JUST a 3D PoP because there's more depth to even the 2D moves just with the existence of backflip and her standing forward jump being more vertical. But the fact that there are NO OTHER 3D "PoP" copies and not even Tomb Raider clones (but even when there "are" it's called a TR clone not cinematic platformer) Just goes to show its uniqueness and how much more it stands out. In depth, progression, platforming etc.

Could even make the argument about how the roll makes the platforming feel different. But it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, I'm one of the actual people that have played PoP, and Tomb Raider in depth, and can actually objectively back my argument in depth, so I'm already more correct than everyone else for that alone.

All you retards can do is throw adhoms and surface level "analysis'"

>>10173496
>you ragequit

can't objectively define that. don't know why you'd think you'd be able to tell me my experience more than me when you've demonstrated many times that you don't even understand what I say

>you're done

objectively insubstantiated.

>Downloading TR4 right now, reached my last straw when I fell into those a fire trap that I knew was there by accident because apparently the game didn't register that I pressed jump. Even though I died due to the game seemingly not recognizing an input, I'll take it as my fault and gladly boot up Last Revelation instead once it's done downloading :D

no where here does it say I won't return. And no where after did I say my analysis was final. And even CONSIDERING all that, I gave substantial and indepth critique regardless that you haven't challenged a single time. You unironically did the circular "evidence speaks for itself" when that was already challenged. because if you just repeat that over and over again, no matter what proof, you can say you're right, because you're not actually objectively laying anything out. Just appealing to your perception. Otherwise, if it was truly objective. It would be falsifiable

>made your opinion about these games worthless

My opinion on everything I played is still valid and remains standing unchallenged. The fact that you characterize them as "worthless" means nothing, that's not an argument, just an arbitrary opinion

>with bad faith bitching

bad faith is objective and requires substantiation to be thrown as an accusation. Otherwise you could lazily apply this to any and all arguments and dismiss them without any actual reason or justification, but just because you arbitrarily applied a label to it

If you can't show or prove how anything said has been bad faith. Your argument is meaningless Not to mention your accusation could be seen as fallacy fallacy, and if you didn't extend any good faith in turn to encourage better engagement, then I'd argue you were bad faith

you got dumpstered in depth. don't reply to me again. I know you have nothing, because your one note replies lazily recharacterizing what I said when I EXPLICITLY said the opposite, without proving why my own judgement of my feelings would be objectively invalid, is something that OBJECTIVELY makes you bad faith, since you made a dismissal about something objective (my feelings on my experience with something) without proper substantiation.

you're unironically too low beyond 70 iq to even understand a single thing I just said. So I'm just saying it to rub salt in the wound and end my engagement justifiably.

kill yourself.

>>10173843
Welp. I got here.

>>10174151
>d. There are also no pressure plate switches, no times where you fall through a cracked floor to grab on to a ledge right below. mations are far more indepth and practical, and her standing forward jump has far more verticality than the Prince's showing a more deliberate consideration for 3D and complex traversal. Not to mention the side flip, backflips she has that would never and could never exist in PoP or swimming being a significant part of traversal. Or the level design structure being wholly different and non linear, or open ause there's more depth to even the 2D moves just with the existence of backflip and her standing forward jump being more vertical. But the fact that there are NO OTHER 3D "PoP" copies and not even Tomb Raider clones (but even when there "are" it's called a TR clone not cinematic platformer) Just goes to show its uniqueness and how much more it stands out. In depth, progression, platforming etc. Could even make the argument about how the roll makes the platforming feel different. But it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, I'm one of the actual people that have played PoP, and Tomb Raider in depth, and can actually objectively back my argument in depth, so I'm already more co

I died of your bullshit.

>>10174232
>I died of your bullshit.

what's your problem? that area was fairly simple, I'm not even sure you can die accidentally there.

anyway. if you have no actual counter argument, then there's nothing to suggest anything I said is wrong. I'm trying to talk about something more nuanced, and not just the surface level similarities you can draw between a set of games.

ultrakill and doom can have similarities drawn. both move like youre gliding, both have that weird pixely art style, devilish hell inspired enemies, twitchy shooting, stage select etc. And If you want to go further, you can liken it to quake. But plenty of people who are fans of those games would say it doesn't feel the same to play as quake or doom.

classic prince of persia is one of my favourite games. I've played it so much, that I even played romhacks of it. and I can without a doubt say the game don't play alike. Tomb Raider will feel more open at times. Jumps will feel more practical. Like I'm scaling a mountain, sometimes you've even have straight rooms with no platforming and just pure exploration. The moveset doesn't mean anything since they're wholly recontexualized by being in 3D.

The game simply doesn't feel like Prince of Persia, and there were many times I looked for "that prince of persia" moment. The game feels far more involved and harder to figure out at times. It simply has more depth. And this is without even getting into how NOT ONLY the combat. But at its core the ENEMY encounters feel wholly different. Enemies will spawn out of nowhere and explicitly chase you around, and some can even climb platforms, which PoP never had.

I'm done making my point. I think I'm without a doubt right about this, further evidenced by the fact that nobody can actually make arguments against anything I've said. Peace.

>>10161704
The whole story behind Prince of Persia is pretty fucking neat if you're interested in how retro games got made.

The dude who made it filmed his brother or friend (I forget which) doing a bunch of moves (running, jumping, swordfighting, etc) on a VHS camera, then scanned the frames into his computer, and then digitized them to make the animations.

The "mirror man" thing was done because he wanted an overarching enemy but there wasn't enough memory available for another set of animations, so the ones from the player character got reused.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0VfmXKq54 if you're curious and have 20 minutes to kill.

>>10174180
look at this wall of text after saying
>last (You)
you deffo mad
It's time to accept that observation based games like classic Tomb Raiders aren't for you.
Shit like ''it's boring'' aren't the matthewmatosian/josephandersian zingers you think they are.
Your mindset got rotted by the toxic Souls discours and you will enjoy fewer games than your peers, not because you have a 'based taste' or something, but because you think high of your kneejerk reactions.
The only way you can save your reputation is to play Tomb Raider 3 with ~75% secrets found per level (not 100%, everyone knows about the cheats). You may use savestates, as this is the intended way to play on Windows Operating Systems.
Have Fun!

>>10161704
>>10173876
Pretty sure they even said they wanted to make a 3D POPlike. Even if not, prince of persia was huge and rubbed off regardless.

starting TR3 for the first time, what patches do I need to install on the Steam version?
for 2 I just installed TR2Main but doesn't seem like there's anything like that for 3

Tomb Raider 1 is the best of the tomb raider games and you can't convince me otherwise

>>10175928
No one is trying to, that is the general consensus.

>>10175403
>look at this wall of text after saying
>>last (You)

yeah. I obvious retracted that. Not like it matters. I ultimately get to decide what I do, and I was testing something, since i didn't do something I probably should have from the start and was unsatisfied.

>you deffo mad

my emotions are of my concern and mine alone. I don't see any reason to care for your thoughts on it, particularly when they're shallow.

>It's time to accept that observation based games like classic Tomb Raiders aren't for you.

*sigh* I think I can rest easy in knowing that all conversation and discussion on this place is meaningless and worthless, because arbitrary statements based on faulty and incomplete assumptions can be made. The idea that I have to disprove something that hasn't (and can't) be substantiated is kind of ridiculous. Half the people I'm talking to are barely self aware enough to understand my criticism of their engagement except for that one single guy that convinced me about trial and error (which i in turn game him a solid foundation for a definition of it) and that other guy that understood immediately my point about the way people "criticized" save crystals being subjective and arbitrary.

I'll give a more indepth response to this finally in my next reply. Moving on tho.

>Shit like ''it's boring'' aren't the matthewmatosian/josephandersian zingers you think they are.

words aren't arbitrary or subjective if there's logically valid meaning, reason or justification behind it that can be engaged. all it reflects is that you have too narrow a view of words that you're projecting your understanding to misunderstanding of it, onto the meaning being expressed. I gave multiple supporting and contexual arguments for what I meant. You engaged with none of them. Reducing them to "boring" isn't the intellectual or logical "zinger" you think it is.

>>10175403
>Your mindset got rotted by the toxic Souls discours and you will enjoy fewer games than your peers, not because you have a 'based taste' or something, but because you think high of your kneejerk reactions.

This is a narrative with no substantiation or relevance, as it hasn't been contexualized. But you're not smart enough to understand what that means.

>The only way you can save your reputation is to play Tomb Raider 3 with ~75% secrets found per level (not 100%, everyone knows about the cheats).

I have no reputation to save. "Reputation" is a subjective judgment, and there have been better (and poorer) men with worse reputations, the most obvious mention would be Jesus, for the religiously inclined. But I could also mention the Jews, Black people, Galileo, Socrates, the deportation and murder of Armenian intellectuals, the witch trials, I could go on. People make arbitrary and unfounded judgements of peoples "character" based on assumed and subjective interpretations of their "reputation". I have nothing to prove. You haven't demonstrated a single reason anything I've said is invalid, or incorrect.

>>10175403
>It's time to accept that observation based games like classic Tomb Raiders aren't for you.

Now. Back to this: I'll say one thing. But it doesn't matter. In this thread alone. Multiple people have complained about underwater doors in Tomb Raider 4. I've even saw someone imply that it wasn't obvious to shoot a Boulder in one of the levels. Now that I've actually played a bit of Tomb Raider 4 it's given me some perspective. Along with the fact that levels I've called linear and easy to navigate, are all levels that people have said they've gotten lost in (Saw somebody in another thread say they got lost in India) The perspective I've received? A lot of things people struggle with in these games are things I don't. I figured out the underwater doors immediately, because the center of the doors were deliberately grayed out, and looked like a switch that I had pressed in levels prior. So I floated in front of it, and pressed. When that didn't work, I held down the action button because my experience from the prior games (and even prior instances in the same game) have told me that sometimes you need to hold the action button...to complete an action. And it worked. Immediately, and I never had a second thought about it.

Same with the Boulder. I realized that it obviously stood out, and I obviously couldn't jump to it and interact with it through the action button, since there was no platform to jump to. So I just pulled out my guns and shot.

There are more and more examples I could give. Like the fact that I found the right way through the maze of Caves of Kaliya my first try. The fact that I found a cave to an elevator in Nevada Desert INSTANTLY while another anon struggled (to be fair, i struggled with something else later, so it evens out) or the fact that I LITERALLY found an alternate way in the Coastal Village to get on top of the huts without having to turn those wheel levers.

>>10175403
>It's time to accept that observation based games like classic Tomb Raiders aren't for you.

To elaborate on this:
>>10176518

Observation is a spectrum not a binary. People are going to have varying degrees of problems with certain things. I will, and have argued that a lot of the times I missed things, they weren't my fault. And I have had people agree with me, and have had no body able to reasonably argue against my reasoning. I pick up on most things far more frequently than most people when it comes to these games, and navigation games in general. The only truly hard games to navigate to this day for me, has been Dark Souls 1, and to some degree, bloodborne and hollow knight. Obtuse shit, (like the owl in the tree in Mario 64) obviously doesn't count.

Oh, I should also mention that Lava opening in Floating Islands where you can dive into was simple as well, and my first thought. I'd also mention the Opera House moment another anon struggled with and etc. I've never had to ask for help with something here. All my complaints in here were about trial and error shit that I already realized the answer to because I died to it. There was no execution, no thought to be figured out, you just died or didn't. But all your responses have been disingenuous deflections from the fact to try and attack my character based on shallow assumptions of my observation skills. I'm writing all this because it will serve as proof that you can't ACTUALLY argue for any of your points when you're faced with truly indepth rebuttals, because you were never serious, or correct in the first place.

You can't disprove anything I've said here. Your thinking is too shallow. I won't have to respond to you any further because, I've already made my point about your premises being fundamentally flawed, and have challenged EVERY single retort you've made.

Last (You). kehehehehe

>>10176556
>You can't disprove anything I've said here
NAYRT but the trial and error shit seems pretty obvious. That quicksand and that train track with the visible electrical current stand out a mile.

Lmao at the pseudo intellectuals in this mess of a thread. You can sure huff your own farts but you can't play videogames for shit. I shall gently place my ballsack in your faces and take my leave without elaborating further.

>>10175928
>>10176213
I would put them in this order:

> TR1
An excellent game, groundbreaking for its time but still a lot of fun to play now. The precise design of the levels and how Lara's moveset lets you interact with them is great. It also has a lot of really cool showpiece areas (The colloseum, the T-Rex storming out of the darkness, that oone part of St. Francis' Folly, the Cistern).

> The Last Revelation
This feels like a true sequel to TR1

> The Rome section of Chronicles
The only part of the game that really feels like a classic TR game. Has some issues, but is ultimately fun. Being a prequel it was fun seeing the return of Larsen and Dupont as a couple of bumbling retards.

> Tomb Raider 2
This is where the list takes a major dip in quality. The devs massively overcorrected to "fix" how easy it was to cheese combat in the first game by dumping hundreds of human bullet sponges into the levels (literally zero of which are tombs). There were some really cool ideas that were poorly executed from a mechanical perspective (the Maria Doria and Opera House levels specifically). Saving anywhere meant that the devs could add tons of instant death traps, which is a bad habit to get into. Had a cool antagonist and "To the sins and fortunes of MARCO BARTOLI!" is still a pretty fun thing to yell out loud when you're wasted.

cont

>>10177402

> Tomb Raider 3
This is what happens when you put game developers on a Bataan Death March. Bugs galore, a difficulty that leads to a lot of cheap deaths, and while the "choose the order of levels you want to play" is a cool idea, in practice you have to do Nevada first or you fuck yourself out of an end game weapon (which must have been a fun surprise for anyone who didn't know this going in). Also the story is retarded (Lara Croft, internationally famous British adventurer/archeologist/author breaks into Area 51, kills dozens of US Army soldiers, lets a bunch of prisoners free, launches a ballistic missile which is targeted at who knows where, steals an alien artifact, and thenwalks right out the door and never faces any consequences. It would be like if Steve Irwin broke into the White House, killed dozens of secret service agents, and stole the President's buttplug and then just walked out the front door and went back to filming episodes of The Crocodile Hunter like nothing ever happened.

> The Ireland section of Chronicles
Loli Lara traipsing around a stormy Irish island with zero weapons while battling creatures out of ancient folklore is a cool idea, but in practice it was super clunky. Props for trying something new (and for giving us a hint of underboob in the CG intro). It could have been a lot better, but it could have been a lot worse.

> The Russia section of Chronicles
Another interesting idea (Lara trapped in a submarine at the bottom of the ocean) with clunky execution (the block based engine/level design does not work well for submarine interiors). The underwater section was novel though.

> The Von Croy Building section of Chronicles
"Holy shit let's add 'stealth' sections to a game with an engine that does not support it in any way whatsoever", more urban raider shit that is unfun and mechanically borked. The third person camera does not work in building interiors at all. This is the worst of the classic levels by far.

That's it.

>>10177167
>>10177268
I accept your concessions.

>>10177423
In Tomb Raider 3 that's not the US government. That's the Majestic 12 conspiracy. They're using bikers to source human guinea pigs and are performing experiments on aliens. They can't publicly pursue Lara because they can't admit to their own existence.
Also, that's a satellite delivery rocket, not an IRBM.

>>10178361
All of their jackets say MP (for Military Police), and they wouldn't need to publicly pursue her, they could just have some wetworks operator snipe her from 900 yards away the next time she goes outside to goof around on her assault course.

It's just a bad idea thematically.

>>10177402
>literally zero of which are tombs
Tombs are where the dead people live, so actually everywhere is tombs.
Given how silly the first game started (featherless dinosaurs, really?), the games have a free pass to just get crazy.
Give me Ape Escape featuring Lara Croft, dammit.

>>10178370
The jackets say MP but they don't look anything like actual soldiers. Those are clearly hired goons.
Thematically I think it's pretty cool, but maybe they could have covered Lara's tracks a little better. Plus, it wouldn't be the only powerful enemy she's made!

Why does Lara kill monkeys... they're just chilling

>>10176556
>a lot of the times I missed things, they weren't my fault
>I pick up on most things far more frequently than most people when it comes to these games
this you?

>>10178421
The number of endangered species that Lara has killed over the years is pretty insane when you stop to think about it.

The number of tigers she has gunned down over the course of the first 3 games alone would probably break an animal conservationist's heart/make them shit their pants.

>>10175704
I found a link to an old looking forum with a fan patch for tr3 on pcgamewiki. Found widescreen patches there two. Those were the only two I used. It's not as smooth as the fan patches for 1 and 2 but it's just extracting a zip file into the install folder. Pretty simple shit.

So, anyone really enjoy the Kayak level in 3? I didn't. Well I thought it was cool for twenty seconds then my frown just grew larger as I progressed. I still think it's a neat looking level.

>>10178827
It's been a long time since I played 3 but I seem to remember a bugged out section where you fall down in the kayak and unless you hit an absolute perfect spot in the water below you just fall through the geometry and instantly die.

TR3 had some cool stuff but it is my least favorite of the classic series. You can definitely tell the team was burning out hard while making it.

>>10178834
Madubu isn't that buggy, but the health cost of two or three mandatory jumps is way too high, especially the plug hole. If there was a remaster they should have falling damage and increase trap damage during the kayak sections. As it is doing the right thing hurts and hitting the red ropes is barely punished.

>>10178834
>>10178896
I got filtered for fifteen minutes at the plug hole. There was one route I hadn't tried because it was against the current and it had those "white water rapid" textures so for a bit I continued to think "nah, that's not the way to go, clearly that is just another way to reach this big plug room". Screw you TR3. I'm still enjoying you you butthole.

>>10178896
Forced damage drops are stupid. TR2 had one in the Maria Doria levels that, although it had a health pack right next to it, could technically softlock the game if the player was bad enough.

If you take damage in a game it should be because you weren't fast enough dodging an enemy, or you weren't paying attention enough and you ran into a trap, or something like that, not just "tee hee you have to take unavoidable damage to progress". It's minor in the grand scheme of things but its bad level design.

Steam guides have links to the widescreen patch for TR3 and also glitch and bug fixes for all the levels apparently.

>>10178675
Funny how culture changes. They used to consider killing human characters "cruel" in TR1 and killing virtual animals fun. Modern Lara has her verbally apologizing for killing a deer but having no qualms about murdering hundreds of human enemies.

>>10178987
>could technically softlock the game
You can restart levels and do better.
While I agree that unavoidable damage and softlocks are ass, they can provide a great sense of fear and dread. I'm still remembering my first playthrough of Resident Evil in 1996, before I realized that the difficulty was smoke and mirrors.

>>10179035
> TR1
> Lara kills 4 humans over the course of the entire game

> Rise of the Tomb Raider
> Lara kills more than 600 people over the course of the entire game

She kills around 1,500 people over the course of the new trilogy. She is only 21 years old in the new games, imagine being 21 and having killed 1,500 people. How the fuck would you ever be able to sleep at night?

This sequence is tomb raider 3 levels of stupid. I've already gotten past it, got the the 2 trident things and looped back to the Coastal ruins hub. But I just went back to the save I left here because it kinda bugged me how inconsistent and retardedly precise it was (without actually giving you any consistent tools to be precise) basically because the rope is permanently swinging, even when you don't press swing, the way you have to judge distance and jump becomes stupidly arbitrary, you can't actually directly face the other rope, because your rope is always subtly swaying side to side, so you have to awkwardly position it slightly to the side, but even that won't work at time. It's not like Platforms where you either miss it or you don't. You either misjudge or you don't. The platform is always big enough and Lara's moveset consistent enough for this principle to always hold true. And the game also isn't retarded so it knows (it has to, or else diagonal range of movement would be meaningless) that if you jump to a platform slightly diagonally, you should realistically still be able to latch onto it, aslong as you obviously aren't too far left or right.

But there's no principle or understanding here. The way you actually do this rope is by spamming the action button until the rope becomes completely still. Otherwise doing it the other way is far too inconsistent and precise to be reasonable. It's not about judgement or execution at that point if it'd inconsistent. It just becomes trial and error, except it's the worst type of trial and error in the fact that it's complete arbitrary luck.

>>10179060
>She kills around 1,500 people over the course of the new trilogy. She is only 21 years old in the new games, imagine being 21 and having killed 1,500 people. How the fuck would you ever be able to sleep at night?

Where the fuck are you getting these stats? Also killing at any age isn't more or less traumatic so your point about "21" means nothing. There are children younger than you that have killed people and learned to get used to it. It has more to do with experienced and your natural mental fortitude.

Also a number between 1500 and 30 would be a meaningless distinction when it comes to whether somebody should be traumatized. You could even argue that at the point where you're naturally killing more than 1000 people, you've likely long been numbed to it. Regardless, Classic Lara has not only killed more than hundreds of people as well, but she's also killed innocent people (in cutscenes) guards, she can kill anything and everyone too, so the monks count too.

>>10179035
>Modern Lara has her verbally apologizing for killing a deer but having no qualms about murdering hundreds of human enemies.

This is objectively untrue, and a biased meaningless point. Don't get why people do and say stuff like this. Comes across so hard as shallow fake fan "new bad! old good!". It's so recurring that Lara constantly cries about killing people and being weak that even journalists have enough awareness to point it out in their reviews. I don't wtf this retarded culture war esque narrative you're trying to paint of "OMG!!! THEY MADE HER APOLOGIZE FOR ANIMALS BUT NOT HOOMAN!! OMG ITS GREEN ENERGY CLIMATE CHANGE VEGANISM LEFTISM!!!!!"

Old Lara's story, or circumstances weren't any better. The good thing about them is that they were unobtrusive and served more as context and background than story. New Lara is bad because story gets too much focus, and gets in the way, all to end up being poorly written too. The story>gameplay is the problem. And it's gameplay is shit.

>>10179060
The old games are very much puzzle games with some action elements. The new ones are the opposite. None of the games in the entire series explore any topics in depth. The new trilogy dips its toes into some difficult topics like rape, PTSD and human trafficking. The older games are very much styled after 70/80s action movies. With lots of the set pieces mimicking stuff like Big Trouble in Little China, Indiana Jones, Back to the Future and others. The old games are loads of fun but just a different thing. There’s so much content in the old style I don’t think it’s necessary to bring that gameplay to the modern day. It would be like remaking Pac-Man or Tetris. What’s the point? The originals are fine. There’s no improvements to be had

>>10179107
it's insincere when she keeps killing people a minute later. go to bed Rhianna, your Lara sucks ass

>>10179107
The criticism of new-Laura are ridiculous I think. I don’t like the games but lots of people do. I’m old and like old games. There’s very few new games I like but they aren’t bad, certainly not “worse” than the originals. The originals do not have any depth or character development to their story. The plot exists solely to move gameplay along. The new games have more plot and it’s not great but it is the focus. That said the gameplay itself isn’t bad. I kind of wish there was more of a bigger survival style game in the new style. I like all of the hidden optional temples you can explore. There’s some neat stuff the new games do that’s marred by the storytelling. Just make Laura a solo girl exploring a massive island full of like tigers, bears, dinosaurs and stuff. I don’t care to see any humans at all. Have her get attacked by a giant Mayan statue or some shit in the middle of an island temple. I don’t care if it makes sense. Maybe she could scale the statue as a puzzle? I can think of tons of fun cool things the new games can do that the old ones could never dream of. The bell tower in the first game of the new-trilogy is really cool as a puzzle. I like puzzles not action