/vr/ - Retro Games

>>10073402
Monkey Island 1+2

I would say that a lot of Lucasart's games fall into this simply because they generally didn't pull "Oh, you didn't know exactly what item to use and at what moment here? You died!" or "Oh, you didn't know you was supposed to do this one specific thing during that looked like a background event hours ago? Well your save file is unwinnable now, but we won't tell you that!" bullshit which many others tended to do.

Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis. It's the only good Jones fiction there is.

>>10073402
It's fine to get filtered by a genre anon, plenty more that may appeal to you. It's not as if, even in its heyday, it was supposed to have an universal appeal.

>>10073419
They did it once with Maniac Mansion. But the game can be beaten in 20 minutes and the dead ends are cool.

If you're supposed to play the game with a guide, then why you don't play it with a guide? This was a problem before the internet, when information was slow and costly.

>>10073492
Because then there's no gameplay. Almost like basing an entire genre on a scam was a bad idea.

>>10073419
>"Oh, you didn't know exactly what item to use and at what moment here? You died!" or "Oh, you didn't know you was supposed to do this one specific thing during that looked like a background event hours ago? Well your save file is unwinnable now, but we won't tell you that!"
I used to dislike this, but I've actually grown to like it. Adventure games can often be replayed quickly once you know what to do and even more quickly if you keep old saves.

The worst thing about it is that it takes you out of the "immersion". You don't feel like you're the character solving the puzzles, you feel like you're the player playing a game. But if you accept that it can actually make for good difficult puzzles - if done right - that don't need LucasArts-style moon logic to make them difficult.

>>10073561
>I used to dislike this, but I've actually grown to like it. Adventure games can often be replayed quickly once you know what to do and even more quickly if you keep old saves.

I still heavily disagree with it, especially the "save unwinnable" part. In a genre where you can be stuck on some part for hours, or even days trying everything on everything to see what works, not knowing that nothing will work because your save was made unwinnable a long time ago because you did/didn't do something random is extremely assholeish.

>>10073402
>illogical nonsense meant to dishonestly extend playtime and scam money through guide books and tip lines
meme created by journos and jewtubers who are dumb and bad at video games

>>10073468
>>10073468
>>10073468

Finally I get to post these

https://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/78.html

https://grumpygamer.com/why_adventure_games_suck

>>10073616
>In a genre where you can be stuck on some part for hours, or even days trying everything on everything to see what works
I think a lot is about expectation. In LucasArts games, if you don't know what to do, you expect there to be a convoluted solution where you have to try everything on everything, since LA didn't have unwinnable saves. While in a lot of Sierra games, you expect the possibility that you might have missed something along the way. Of course then there's games that BOTH have lots of moon logic puzzles AND unwinnable save situations, which is the absolute worst.

>>10073687
>Of course then there's games that BOTH have lots of moon logic puzzles AND unwinnable save situations, which is the absolute worst.

The Sierra games were FULL of moon logic puzzles that can screw you over. That screenshot is one involving a scene of a cat chasing a mouse if you go to that area. How are you supposed to know to toss a boot (but not any boot, a specific one, toss the wrong one and the game is winnable) at the cat to save the mouse.... who does not appear again until THE FINAL AREA to save you (this scene happens in the FIRST area by the way). And he saves you... once... from getting tossed in a prison cell. So to someone who has no idea it just looks like you are supposed to avoid getting caught, not toss an old boot at a cat during what feels like a random animation to save a mouse who will save you once when you intentionally get caught in the final area and sent to a jail cell that contains a random item you will need later which looks like it is useless... and the way you use it makes even less sense.

That's just ONE part of that game mind you. There is also a part where you are starving, you have to know exactly which of the multiple food items you need to eat to not starve to death, you can eat any of them, but eating the wrong one means you won't have that item for what it's required for later.

That item you get from the jail cell is moldy cheese by the way, which if you toss into a specific machine recharges your magic wand. The game text specifically says it didn't look like it did anything, it also says this if you didn't put the cheese in where it will actually not recharge the wand.

The game, and Sierra games in general, were FULL of moon logic like this... and that isn't even taking to account how nonsensical the world itself is. It was loaded with "try everything on everything" and trial-and-error, just that it's possible to die from every wrong choice and/or have rendered your save unwinnable hours ago.

>>10073729
I haven't played V so I can't say for sure, but I'm guessing the mouse hole in the wall would give you the clue you need that it's related to the mouse. It's only moon logic if you don't expect the game to give you hints for things you could try earlier in the game. The mouldy cheese sounds like moon logic though. To me, a good example of moon logic is the puzzles in MI2, like when you have to hypnotize a monkey with a banana on a metronome so you can put the monkey in your pocket and use it as a wrench later.

>>10073837
>I haven't played V so I can't say for sure, but I'm guessing the mouse hole in the wall would give you the clue you need that it's related to the mouse.

That just sounds like something that would be ignored as one of the many objects you can inspect for decoration that don't do anything.

>like when you have to hypnotize a monkey with a banana on a metronome so you can put the monkey in your pocket and use it as a wrench later.

That's not an issue of moon logic but an issue of wordplay/puns not working in other regions/languages. I hear about that one a lot.

What about the one from Gabriel Knight that is SO bad it has it's own Wikipedia page?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_hair_mustache_puzzle

>>10073867
>What about the one from Gabriel Knight that is SO bad it has it's own Wikipedia page?
Definitely, that's a good example. Also the mime puzzle from the first GK1. I don't think it's a coincidence that the GK games play very much like LucasArts games (no unwinnable save states, not very free to explore but divided into sections).

>>10073662
> I played one game that required the player to drop a bubble gum wrapper in a room in order to get a trap door to open (object names have been changed to protect the guilty).
sages of /vr/, what game is he talking about? has to have come out before 1990

>>10073402
Grim Fandango, the greatest adventure game of all time.

>>10073402
Eco Quest, Gabriel Knight 1, possibly Quest for Glory 4 or definitely 5, Full Throttle maybe, depending on your tolerance level for illogical (it's used for humor so think funny solutions and it's not bad) Leisure Suit Larry 6. A little different but Shivers 1 and The Dig are more pure puzzle but you'll need specific knowledge for parts.

Lucasarts games relied on at least one or two totally batshit solutions per game. Filling balloons with foam, a rubber chicken pulley, stuff like that. Sierra leaned into whatever the setting was so you get wacky fantasy, hardcore police detail, or campy sci fi depending on the game.

The illogical comes from wanting to sell hint books. So it's in most of them. You have to skew towards educational or kiddie to get away from it.

Day of the Tentacle

>>10073402
Loom.

>>10073402
Yes, you stupid faggot. There are a number of them. The Colonel's Bequest is one which does not require you to even solve a single puzzle throughout the entire game.

>>10073498
>almost like basing an entire genre on a scam was a bad idea
Wow, you mean like how Nintendo based their entire console on a scam by making everything overly difficult to sell officially licensed strategy guides like Nintendo Power that came with cheatcodes for other-wise impossible games?

Now go rope yourself for being a low IQ shitter who's too stupid to solve games that literal children solved, unaided, in the 80's.

>Because then there's no gameplay.
How about you actually try playing a point and click game before you start spewing literal, actual, shit out of your mouth, you mouth-breathing fucktard?
https://youtu.be33TRlkmTTSg?t=74

>>10073729
>The sierra games were FULL of moon logic puzzles
Congrats, dipshit, MOST games from the 80's and 90's that had puzzles were filled with "moon logic" puzzles or, even worse, completely random chance puzzles. You remember that annoying bullshit from Pokemon Red/Blue with the switches in the trash cans? Saving after finding the right switch and restarting every time you failed, since it randomly resets every time you hit the wrong switch? Yea, I'd rather play 100 Sierra games in a row than go through that dogshit once.

Also, you don't just have to use a boot to save the rat, you can use a stick as well.

>>10074140

>>10073492
>>10073498
>>10074034
I never bought this excuse that they were "trying to sell hint books". The hint books came out years after the games did, and the hintline that Sierra was "known for" didn't come out until 1989, well after King's Quest, Police Quest, Leisure Suit Larry, and Space Quest had already begun. The reality of the situation is that back then, players used to call those puzzles "content", and when you bought an Adventure game, it was expected that the game would last you around a week to a month or two to solve. In today's day and age where gratification needs to be instant, and there's a ton more shit competing for everyone's interest and time, puzzles like those where they would lead to dead ends or require bizarre solutions are frowned upon.

In that same regard, they were not exclusive to adventure games, and they were not the majority of games.

>>10073402
As for OP, if you're starting shit to just get an Adventure Game thread going, you don't need to use such bait starters. /vr/ is not the Adventure-game-virgin it was 5 or 6 years ago. You can start a thread like a normal person. If you're being genuine, and your pic is what you consider to be illogical, dishonest, nonsense, designed to scam you out of money, well then, maybe this game in pic related is more your speed.

>>10073402
Secret of Monkey Island
Quest for Glory
Look
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
The Colonel's Bequest
Beneath a Steel Sky
Leisure Suit Larry 5 and 7
Space Quest 5
Maniac Mansion
Sanitarium
Broken Sword series
Day of the Tentacle
Myst
Toonstruck
Full Throttle
Curse of Monkey Island
Legend of Kyrandia
King's Quest 3
Pajama Sam 1-4
Spy Fox 1-5
Inherit The Earth
Gabriel Knight 1 and 2
Dragonsphere
Murders in Space

Basically a whole shit ton if you actually tried playing some instead of complaining.

>>10074204
>look
Loom*

>>10073837
>>10073867
I guess it didn't bother me because I'm an english speaker first but the "monkey wrench" puzzle wasn't what threw me off in MI2, it was the
>if this is 3
>what's this
Puzzle. It's actually super easy but unless you get what it's saying it makes 0 sense.

>>10073867
Apparently it was a quickly-added puzzle that was meant to cut the time and development costs of another much longer puzzle. So it was actually, quite literally, thrown together at the last second, and the developers themselves were unhappy with it.

>>10074212
My biggest issue with the monkey wrench puzzle were the steps leading up to the monkey wrenching. I never figured out the monkey needed to be hypnotized by the banana on the metronome on my own, instead the only deduction involved was "monkey like banana", lets use banana on everything in vicinity of monkey and hope something happens.

>>10074164
>I never bought this excuse that they were "trying to sell hint books".
And you were right.
There's that old interview with Roberta (from one of Sierra's disks) with her talking about "the moon logic". She mentions two reasons: first, she just liked the idea of randomness, and second (which is more important), a properly logical adventure game would last minutes and feel like an interactive movie, while dropping some illogicality there and here adds (even if it sounds weird) to gameplay. And I absolutely understand and share her point.

>>10073402
>>10073498
>>10073616
>>10073729
>>10073867
>>10074423

>a properly logical adventure game would last minutes and feel like an interactive movie

“It actually kind of saddens me, you want to know the truth. Having some thinking is a good trait. If you're figuring it out yourself and you have that moment where you click, that's so much more satisfying. It is like this really satisfactory feeling and maybe I just assumed that that was a very human trait. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's something that has to be taught in schools or by parents. We talked about it a lot in the media about how this game [the original Colossal Cave Adventure] wouldn't sell today. Isn't that sad? It's too hard for today's player, [but] it wasn't in the ‘80s, it wasn't too hard.”

>>10074423
>while dropping some illogicality there and here adds (even if it sounds weird) to gameplay.
Agreed, I consider them lateral thinking puzzles as opposed to purely logical puzzles.

>>10073492
>if you're supposed to play the game with a guide

King's Quest 1 didn't have a guide until 1989, 5 years after it originally came out, the fuck are you talking about?

>>10073498
It's not like there are unlimited possibilities in these games. You have items. You see things you can interact with. Try different things until you figure it out. The games are short as hell.

Speaking of a way to make traditional adventure games more "gameplayish" (apart from turning them into Mystoids), Discworld Noir and Blade Runner had some revitalizing elements but, alas, it didn't help the genre.

>>10074486
>The games are short as hell

Only if you know what to do and where you need to go. A lot of the fun of Adventure games is the "adventure" part. Exploring the environment. For first-time players, using hints sparingly, they should expect to beat them in about a few hours at most. King's Quest 7 is around 6 hours long.

>>10074521
>Speaking of a way to make traditional adventure games more "gameplayish"
They already had "gameplay". Solving puzzles. Some of them may have been unfair, some ridiculous, but so is life.

If you want more "action-oriented" gameplay, play Conquests of the Longbow, or better yet, play another genre.

>>10073402
>>10073498
Absolutely malding.

>>10074204
>Legend of Kyrandia
>can reasonably be played from beginning to end and don't devolve into illogical nonsense meant to dishonestly extend playtime
>With that fuckin' labirynth

>>10074564
>with that fuckin' labyrinth

You were expected to make a map as you traversed it. Taking notes is a long-forgotten gameplay mechanic in video games.

>>10074571
based, I love taking notes and charting maps. If you don't have your computer room littered with papers and schizo post-it notes trying to make sense of it all, you're not playing it properly.

>>10074564
Other than the caves and maybe the potions it's pretty straightforward
>>10074571
This, I still have the map I drew years ago somewhere

>>10074452
Corey & Lori were Sierra's dream team, Ken & Roberta were the meme team

>>10074745
They recently developed Hero-U Rogue to Redemption, which is a pretty fun traditional fantasy adventure game.

>>10073402
I quite like the Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes games (Serrated Scalpel and Rose Tattoo). I always thought that the logic behind the puzzles was solid if occasionally a bit strained. But they're Win95 games, so you're going to need an emulator. I used ScummVM, and it worked out fine for me.

>>10074949
You would also probably like the Tex Murphy series.

>>10074034
>The illogical comes from wanting to sell hint books

Source: Trust me bro

>>10074204
>Spy Fox 1-5
what?

>>10075045
multiple games in this genre literally joke about that constantly. it was definitely intended.

>>10074949
not an emulator, it's an interpreter

>>10073402
colonel's bequest

>>10075223
>multiple games in this genre literally joke about that constantly. it was definitely intended.

>now he's actively lying to try and cover for himself
You can stop ANY time you feel like it anon, there's no need to dig yourself any deeper.

>>10075217
Sorry, Spy Fox 1-4.

Dry Cereal
Some Assembly Required
Operation Ozone
Hold the Mustard

>>10075587
Hold the Mustard isn't a point and click adventure game.

>>10073402
>scam money through guide books and tip lines
Do people still believe this?