/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4980071
Also the way enemy placement and challenge is concieved is very modern at least in Levelord's maps.
It's clear that the mapper knows that player now use keyboard+mouse and have had 20 years to get used to the game and other FPS, so the challenge often comes from hordes and hordes of enemies, with often many different types of enemies seen at the same time, something very rare for classic Build.

The episode also has the tendency to end almost every map with a boss fight, again not classic.

>>4980023
>>4980067
Oh and finally, in terms of level design mentality, the maps do have modern aspects. Tons of invisible walls, tons of decorative doors, a relative linearility and the tendency to break the maps into "areas" rather than considering one map as being one whole area.

It's clear that if episode 5 had been made at the time, all of that would be completely different.

>>4980023
There are a few things they do that couldn't have been done had it been released after Atomic in 1997-1998.

It does use modern dynamic lights but they're optional and not shown if played in the classic renderer.
There are also the new Duke lines which are higher quality so you'd have to do something about that, again not really a problem.

Other than that, there is the scale and detailing of the maps.

All of the maps except one go over the original wall/sector limit of the engine.

Some of them don't go much over and could easily be optimized so they'd fit in the original limit, but others would have to been cut into 2 maps.

In terms of optimization for computers of the time, if we pretend it'd have come out after Atomic and consider the leap between 1.3 and 1.4 in terms of detailing, and if like I just said we optimize/cut the bigger maps into several maps, it wouldn't be a problem.

Finally, originally you couldn't have a Pigcop flying recon car and a two-way train at the same time (which Golden Carnage does) but it's a minor thing. There might be a few other minor things like this that wouldn't impact much.

New textures, sprites, codes, all respect the original Build.

>>4979780
No, the level design is not classic Build era.
It's more "realistic" and cynematic, more modern in a way.

But it is one of the best mods ever.

>>4977872
MM10 didn't drop it entirely. It was nice twist.

Anyway, when in the case of MM5, 3 stages out of 8 are 'false' stages that last for about 3 screens, I don't really see the point.

MM6 also had some really short ones. Looked like fillers that make it look like there is more than there really is.

The level data of Protoman castle stage 4 is even shared with another stage. It's also the case with Wily 4 iirc.

What's the most underrated Build map ever and why is it Rides Again's Refinery?

>>4976087
>>4977285
I'd say it's an observation or tech center. The space suits in the room before seem to indicate work around there.

>>4975239
Still better than getting random splash damage. Either way those things suck.

so I just realized you can destroy the canons in Babe Land

>>4946257
He also did the MC of another survival horror: The Note

Despite its flaws X3 is my favourite because of enemy placement/design and challenge.

In X1/2 you're just running through levels as a powerhouse killing everything in your path without a sweat.

In X3 every single enemy encounter is a small challenge to overcome.

>>4953884
>It's not teleportation though. He is removed from reality for a period of time and put in an obvious dream sequence.

Okay, let's pretend "it's not teleportation" even though it literaly goes by the definition of it considering the body is removed to be placed somewhere else. How is it a problem that one one hand, we take a body from point A to transport it "in Alessa's mind" like you say, and that the other hand we take a body to transport it to point B? All I see is an arbritary decision to claim one is fine while the other is stupid, and if the situations were reversed and SH1 had teleport from point A to B and HC had the "teleport into dream" sequence, you'd also claim the later is stupid.

>>4954056
>Except I referenced that line earlier and didn't cut off part of it to drive home my narrative like you

Not at all, the point was, like the canon book says, PH's true form was that of "an executioner of time past", and that James' vision of him is only his. Thus, not the real vision, thus he did indeed exist as an executionner.

Considering that the whole PH discussion started because you claimed it didn't make sense that PH exists outside of James' mind, and that now you say

>Also, executioner of times past means he was the old prison camp executioner

I don't know how permantly and irreparably BTFO I am.

Now, I have no idea where you pull this "prison camp executioner" idea from, but even if we take it from granted, even if we claim the painting doesn't have biblical references when other things in the same museum room were religious, I don't see how it could be a problem
that one hand, Silent Hill takes this old executioner to put it into James' mind, while on the other hand, takes this executioner image to be god's executioner.

>>4954056
>Crimson is derived from the colour red.

Okay now that's farfetched. Why would they intentionally not use crimson directly then and risk confusion when PH is defined as Red Pyramid by James

>>4953884
>Well, they had 2 more games to do that and Team Silent never did it. You're drawing this entire interpretation from Homecoming

Since you're so keen on Book of Lost Memories, maybe you ought to have a look at the description of PH for SH2 there:

>Takes the appearance of an executioner of times past

Now see, even the "canon book" you're using as back up says it.

>Red Devil
>Crimson One
>I'm sure you can work this out.

Those are 2 different things. Red Devil was intially PH until retconned by SH4 as Jimmy Stone. Crimson One is God.

>And this lore doesn't take away from Silent Hill 1 and in fact adds to it. It's like complaining that Alessa's reincarnation is blonde and named Heather.

The point was: SH2 did some heavy changes, but gets a pass. The movie and HC use PH respectfully to his true form as shown in SH2: somehow that's not okay.
All I see is SH2 fanboyism double standard.

>Please source this claim that PH is God's Executioner in SH2

The painting you keep brushing off as "doesn't matter". "Judgement day" couldn't be any clearer in a story about religious.

>I was talking about Homecoming's town design, which has cracked steaming holes only seen in the movie.

Those are "hell design". The town wouldn't have those if hell didn't break loose.

>Because 4 is Walter's nightmare, his literal dreamscape, most of the time.

So yes, the games have different hell design. So why are HC's ones a problem because they're different? It's not Alessa's hell, or James', or Walter, it's the hell made for the entire Founders families and the cult. Why are the steam and other design a problem for being different when they should be different?

>>4953873
For instance 2 and 4 each have completely different visual "hell design"

>when Harry goes through the hole in the antique shop and passes out, but when he's talking to Lisa, it's an obvious dream sequence, and he wakes up in the exact same place as before. The reason Cybil couldn't find him when she went through was because the town removed him from existence for a period of time and put him in Alessa's mind.

Okay, so he doesn't teleport but he does. Gotcha. Good old dishonesty again.

>>4953825
>Something created by the town to spook James and remind him of his sins.

Why would the painting depinct a biblical scene and show PH as God's tool? And why have the painting in a history museum about the town? All that is "just a spook" ?
Pretty clear that the devs intended to write PH as part of SH lore and show his real origin behind James' vision of him.

There are much smaller and farfetched things fans decide to interpret as "story depth" but somehow this is brushed off.

>I explained that. There is an item in SH2 called the 'Crimson Tome' and it references the cult's God as 'The Crimson One'. You chose to ignore that.

What does the Crimson Tome have to do with the newspaper article?

>No, they explain via the Book of Lost Memories

Yeah, like I said. They explain their changes AFTER so it fits their sequels. SH1 never mentionned that, SH2 did the change

> rather than take away meaning like Homecoming

It didn't take away meaning, it wouldn't make sense to use James' personal twisted vision of things, they used PH's original meaning as protrayed in SH2

>Homecoming is about Alex facing his 'inner demons' for having killed his brother and some shit about his dad. They even have Pyramid Head.

No no no, I'm talking about how in SH2, each persons sees his own twisted view of things in Silent Hill. That is never dealt with again, except arguably with SM which is its own thing. Take 1, 4 or HC for instance, all the characters live through the same silent hill. For instance in HC the hell is everyone's, not the protagonist's personal view, and HC has nothing to do with the protag either.

>SH2 and 3 took place on the other side of the town from SH1, that's why they look different.

You're changing the subject. You were talking about pipes and coals and other hell design. The hell design elements are different for every game, there are only similarities in 1/3/0 because they're all about Alessa and even then they still have differencies.

>>4953654
>>4953789

That IS a change, and it's a convenient change they made JUST as an excuse to make a sequel, and they remain vague about the reasons just enough so the next sequels could decide.

On top of it they add that it turns into "each person's personal hell", something never talked about in that same manner in another sequel, and that it "attracks people".
All of that is just very convenient for their story.

You can say whatever you want about the story issues of HC or Origins, but if you were objective and coherent you'd admit that stuff in SH2 is just as bad.

>>4953665
>Homecoming completely changes the town layout and is based more on the movie's town design with the cracked steaming holes from the coal mine fire (that only happened in the movie)

Town design argument again? really?
Also what's that about the steam and coal? Each game has visual completely different from the one before.

>HC goes to Shepard's Glen and then the main characters gets teleported to SH via headaches

What's your point and how is it different from Harry constant teleporting in SH1?

>>4953631
>There is a difference between P. Head being used to torture James and force him to remember the fact that he killed Mary and P. Head showing up in Homecoming for no adequately explained reason and turning his actual head into a glorified hat.

Why is this so hard to understand? Why are people so stuck up James' vision they fail to see the grand picture?

I've never argued with anything PH represents for James. The point is, what happens to James is a mix between Silent Hill and his own psyche. He sees Silent Hill through his own mind, but it's still Silent Hill as a base.

It is exactly the same with PH, yes it's "his" PH that represents his "guilt" and bla bla bla, but it like everything about Silent Hill that gets shifted for him, it didn't come out of thin air, it's based on a real thing.

And that real thing is God's executionner in SH lore. Why else the newspaper telling us someone else saw him? Why else the painting in the history museum of the town directly referencing a biblical scene, Judgement Day, with PH as executioner?

>The painting only says "Misty days on the rains of judgement", and yes, you can infer that to be another manifestation.

"Only" says?! and another "manifestation" of what?! Why do you insist on dismissing any proof the game lays out that you don't like under a petty "oh, that point doesn't matter" excuse ? Just so you can keep claiming HC and the movie did it wrong?

>Silent Hill 2 retroactively explains how Silent Hill 1 can happen and doesn't change the meaning or anything you tard.

Yes it changes tons of things. In SH1 it's all about Alessa's power. Now that Alessa was gone, they claim "the town has remnants of the power", but they remain vague about it so we don't know whether it's because some cult is still active or because "it's The Town itself!".

But saying Homecoming is not canon is being dishonest, and using "town design" as 'proof' is the most dishonest excuse I've ever seen.

The town is different for gameplay reasons, what fun is there in revisiting the same areas again and again?

I suspect the only reason SH3 re-used a part of SH2's design was so they could quickly, and cheaply, not only gain 1h+ of extra gameplay (town+hospital) but also have at least ONE place in the game with some actual freedom of exploration (the town), as all the other areas in the game are as small and repetitive (design wise) as they could get away with.
The town and the hospital are the same so they could make a game quickly. Saying it's because of "canon" reasons is fooling yourself.
I'm always amazed when people complain that Resident Evil 3 re-used a small part of the RE2 police station, but SH3 somehow gets away with something 10 times as big, executed in a worse way (there is NOTHING to do in the town, not even a single reward for exploration as not supplies can be found outside the bar). Dishonest SH2 fanboyism at its finest. Even classic RE fans admit when they see bs.

>Why did the devs behind Downpour admit that he was specific to James?

I'd like to see where that happened, because last time (ITT) someone used an interview to back up their fantaisies, nothing in the interview actually backed it up.
But if it's true, I can tell you the reason is right here in this thread, because of people like you. A good example is Gans, he was a big SH fan and begged Konami for years to make the movie, then made the ultimate fan movie.
He was as respectful as possible to the franchise, going as far as not accepting his producer's wishes to add cheap scares because "that's what the general audiance excepts of a horror movie".
He used PH in the same role as what's established in SH2 lore, while making sure not to step in James' vision of him because that wouldn't make sense.
What did he get in return? A minority of vocal SH2 fanboys who were too busy nitpicking on anything that's different (because retelling the very same story we know would have been great, right) to enjoy the result, while distorting everything else.

Years later he said doing a movie that way was a mistake, and that's part of how we got the atrocious Revelations 3D.

You just can't please these people. SH2 is the 2nd coming of christ and they're willing to destroy anything else by being as dishonest as possible.
The same thing happened with Homecoming, so I'm sure the devs of Downpour came to that conclusion easily.


>Homecoming and the movie, which are objectively non-canon just because of the town design alone

The movie is obviously not canon, since it's a "parrallel universe" with a different story.

It's not foreshadowing as much as it is explaning. Foreshadowing would be seeing PH through the bars. The newspaper article starts explaining PH, and again like you conveintently dismiss with your "it's just the town!" bs, newspapers in the game are used to tell world facts, outside of James' personal realm, like the article about Angela.
Why else would they use a newspaper article? They are plenty of other ways to foreshadow something. There is also the painting explaining PH as God's Executioner, located in a history museum, again something meant to show world facts, but I'm sure you can "easily" brush that away, or any lore SH2 establishes, with your "it's just the town!" mentality.


>But that doesn't mean some megafaggot in Homecoming should be able to see P. Head. I already explained why P. Head is specific to James and his situation, and if everyone can see him, why didn't he pop up in any of the other Team Silent games?
>Why isn't he in SH1 or 3 then? Why doesn't he show up in SH4? Fuck, SH3 has Valtiel, where is Pyramid Head though?

You're mixing everything up. You talk as if PH is only real to Alex in Homecoming because you're trying to apply SH2 James logic while that logic only applies to SH2. In HC everything points out that PH is part of the lore, like his representation on the church stained glass.
The shit going on in HC has nothing to do with Alex, it follows SH1/3 logic in which everyone is in the same hell. The Founding Fathers failed their pact with God and thus God uses PH to punish them, there is a reason why he sees Alex in the hotel and does nothing to him, same reason why he's looking for the founders families and why he kills Alex's fathers: they're the faulty ones.

Just like in the movie, he works as God's executioner, just like established in SH2 lore.

Nobody needs God's punishment in the other games, except maybe for SH1 but that's like asking why we see no trace of Travis, they just didn't exist yet.

>>4951816
>The nurses in SH1 and SH2 have different designs and meanings.

I know that. My point is, it's fine to re-use an iconic monster and give it another meaning when SH2 does it but it's not when another game does it from SH2? Even when the base meaning remains the same?!

>You'd have to be a retarded NESfag to think it's a retcon. Silent Hill always had a spiritual power, and in SH1 it was corrupted by the cult's practices, and after Harry kills the God, the spiritual power now calls people who feel guilty (which usually just means killers) to Silent Hill to repent for their sins. By SH3, the town is once again being used by the cult.

There is nothing in SH1/3 that hints that "the town" has powers. It all comes from Alessa/Heather and the baby inside her, with the help of Claudia in 3. This is the reason why in SH3 all the same shit as what happens in Silent Hill, also happens outside of Silent Hill in the first part of SH3.

Only SH2 has that "town power" aspect, and even then it's never made clear whether it's because "of the town itself" or because of what the Cult did to this town, and all the hints lean towards the later...

Which is also the explanation given in 4 and HC: it's because Cultists making rituals or pacts with God.

>But not everybody can see Pyramid Head dumbass. Everybody sees their own punishment in different ways. Why didn't Eddie or Angela get their own Pyramid Head? Because they weren't in James specific situation, the reason why the Pyramid Head looks like an executioner is because James is in denial he killed Mary, so P. Head 'executes' Maria multiple times to remind him of his sins.

That doesn't go against anything I said. In SH2 every character sees his own hell mixed with SH lore, they each see what they need to see.


>that was just foreshadowing P. Head's appearance in the hotel, and could easily be written off as another manifestation by the town.

>>4951170
Then, there are SH2 fanboys who think the game is holy and who will either look too deeply into the interpretation to find things which aren't there, and who will conveniently dismiss anything that they thinks tarnish their holy game, even things that are in SH2. These are the people who write all kinds of wikias and fan sites.

That is how they'll never talk about how SH2 completely changed the reason for shit to happen in the town of Silent Hill; but will claim the movie and Homecoming mis-used PH.
All those two did was to follow what SH2 established as SH lore with PH.

The PH painting shows "Judgement day", telling us PH is God's executioner, and that is what both the movie and HC did, use him as God's executioner when God needed retribution.
And then there are those same SH2 fanboys who will misinterpret everything and make up a story of how PH in HC may represent Alex' guilt while nothing in the game hints to that. That is because, like you, they're stuck into James' view of things, which is only viable in James' mind in SH2.

>>4950312
This is besides my point and I've already say it but I'll say it again. Actually let me try another take.

James' Silent Hill isn't just "his" nightmare, it's a mix of "his" and of Silent Hill lore. Take the environments for instance, they're all based on Silent Hill places even the most nightmarish of them.

Then, there are the nurses and the dogs, directly taken from SH1.

Then, there is the Rebirth ending, clearly telling us the old Gods are still there.

In SH2 with James' personal psychological view of the SH world, they completely change the reason for Silent Hill to even exist compared to SH1, to the point it can be considered a retcon depending on your definition of the word.

So they had to back up all that up and that was how they did it. They tell us the two are intertwinned, James' only sees all he sees because of what happened in the town and everything he sees is also based on the town.

That is also how they back up PH.
Yes, all you say is true, but all of that is James' PH.
With the painting in the historical museum, the game tells you that James' view of PH is based on a real executioner of the town God's.
With the press article, the game tells you that PH manifested himself in the past to another man who needed it, another man who did something but wouldn't admit it to himself.
Yes, Eddie and Angela don't see him, because they don't need to. Like you say, they disappear after James says "I don't need you anymore".

History museums and press articles are for world facts. If the game wanted to believe he was only for James', they wouldn't use those means to give PH a backstory.
This is also backed up by how James' can read Angela's story through a newspapers. Again, just telling him the world's facts.

Finally, even if the newspaper bit has been retconned by SH4, it still backs up the fact that the executionner with a red hood is part of the SH lore, because that is EXACTLY the design that Jimmy Stone uses for being "the Red Devil".

>>4949301
Yeah and donsidering the low inventory limit for that fight, a good stock of Molotov Cocktails are the best thing to bring...

The Queen is another great example of unnecessary long animations btw. Considering damage to her doesn't really matter, after she gets stunned it's all about waiting for her stun to be over and time the next shots properly

>played upcoming again maybe for the 4th or 5th times
>replayed the last fourth of the game 3 times to get all the endings I missed

>all that time I barely ever used a single serum and always saved them

>MFW only after all that I google some shit and realize serums increase your max hp and when you have them all it doubles your hp bar

Well I feel stupid now. No wonder I was getting raped so much against some bosses. Tbh it did make the game a lot more intense for me, I thought the game was very unforgiving which brought a lot of tension, and it's still the case, but a bit less so now that I know that.
Although health items don't heal a % of the max, always the same amount, so I guess it doesn't change THAT much outside of boss rape after all.