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[ERROR] No.9828320 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

I need some good examples of Lawful Evil.
This could either be stories from games or character ideas. Characters from media are also exceptable. I just want to play it correctly.

pic not related because Gregor Clegane is the pinnacle of Chaotic Evil.

>> No.9828345

A CEO who doesn't technically break the law, but bends it and uses loopholes and clauses and all kinds of shit to fuck everyone over and get himself rich as fuck.

>> No.9828368

To me, LE is like the mafia. They're very honorable to a certain group of people. Outside of that group of people, basically anything goes - although, oftentimes they still keep a certain code of "honor" ie, they won't attack a woman (but that doesn't mean that they won't hire someone else to do it, or find a way to justify that what they are doing is not an attack).

>> No.9828369

Lawful Evil is someone who recognizes and respects a power structure or order, but ultimately only sees it as a framework in which to elevate himself at any cost.
Tywin Lannister is a pretty solid instance.

>> No.9828379

Lord Humungus.

Darth Vader.

http://easydamus.com/lawfulevil.html

Read that entire page.

you're good.

THREAD OVER.

>> No.9828383

Gregor is the epitome of paladinhood!

inb4 iudc

>> No.9828399

The Godfather or really most Mafia films can be great examples for LE characters.

Men who have absolutely no qualms about murdering, stealing, or any sort of evil activity, but who follow their own personal code of honor they consider unbreakable.

>> No.9828435

>>9828345
I don't think that's lawful. I would consider that NE.

How can you be lawful if you don't fundamentally respect and adhere to laws? Acknowledgment of and adherence to are two separate things.

For example, if you perform acts that appear selfless, but for the sake of self-recognition - then you're not actually being selfless. So abusing/skirting the law is not a lawful activity.

>> No.9828442

A Lawful Evil character can be anyone that works without morality within the confines of a power structure, whether they established that power structure or merely operate in it is beside the point.

This ranges from tyrannical kings to soldiers that do their job just a little too well, though generally, the Evil of LE is emphasized more in the higher echelons. Conversely, the Lawfulness of LE is emphasized more in the lower ranks.

A good example of a LE character would be a general that obeys his king's orders without care for his soldier's lives or the dignity of his enemy.

>> No.9828443

Lawful Evil is basically a "black knight" he does evil shit but he plays it by the rules. He does not backstab he challenges openly, he does not steal gold behind the back he takes stuff openly after a fight to th death. He does not do stupid stuf "for the lulz" he play by the rules when he can. You coudl say he is like a robot but he is not, robots are neutral or lawful neutral. He still has feelings.

>> No.9828477

>>9828435
By sticking to the letter of the law, and not it's intent. At the end of the day, you can tell others with absolute honesty that you follow the law, you just abuse any mistakes in the law and refuse to follow it in the way it was meant to be followed.

It's the most iconic example of LE. If you think it's NE, you have a really bad perception of how lawful works.

>> No.9828509

>>9828320
Then a story about my last evil Lawful wizard I played some time ago it is.

The Scenario: The party's pre-campaign background consisted of helping a local baron keep the peace around his estate during a time of war and goblinoid insurrection. Immediately an organized effort to strike back at us by the bandits we had been fighting attacked the estate during a banquet. They tried to carry off with the treasury and the baron's son, but we stopped them both. The half-orc barbarian came across a gold trinket in the aftermath and took a liking to it, his primitive mind thinking, "finder's keepers". Since we were mercenaries anyway, and I thought the baron has been holding back on us after seeing his treasury on full display hatched a plan to get as much out of him as we could.

The baron demanded the trinket back and the barbarion refused. I whispered over to him that an outright confrontation would be out of the question. We were still near the baron's frail son we had rescued so I told him to take the boy hostage, I'd be there to support him with my magic when he needed it. Otherwise it would be better for me to keep my card hidden. The barbarian gets the kid in a head lock and at knife point and makes his demands. The sorcerer in the party goes to cast colour spray. With improved counter-spell I nullify it and claim such a shock to the boy could send his poor constitution into a seizure. Then the baron GM fiats and has the baron absolutely ruin the barbarian's shit, nice to know the baron was level 10.

All the while I got away with everything while the barbarian's character was thrown into the dungeon and retired because he was likely never getting out alive or not. Just another pawn sacrificed.

>> No.9828512

>>9828442

Kind of like that trope of the honorable "black knight" that's the bruiser of the bitch-queen BBG. He's an extremely honorable character, and is even highly relatable at times - however, if the queen says "kill that child," he just fucking does it.

Can't think of a literary example right now, but it's pretty damn common. Sometimes a character like this is portrayed as being "trapped," or sometimes they serve as kind of a window into how a seemingly "good" person could be so flippantly evil.

Actually, you might consider Tyrn Loghain from Dragon Age LE.

>> No.9828513

I always considered it the flipside of Lawful Good. A character who is so obsessed with law or order that he enforces it fanatically. Eventually he begins to see demons where non exist, or perceives the tiniest infractions to be the greatest crimes and therefore punishable by the maximum sentence (usually to be carried out immediately).

Ex: A witch was found in this town. The entire village, and all its inhabitants must be cleansed by fire.

>> No.9828517

Of all the evil characters the LE character is the least likely to be aware of, or think he is evil. That is what makes him the most dangerous and in someways the most wicked. A NE character knows that he is just out for himself, doing whatever benefits himself personally. A CE is aware of the sadistic pleasure he gains in through the pain of others and the violation of order. But your LE character? No man, to him he is just the dude who makes the system work. He is the guy who executes the guy who steals a loaf of beard to feed himself.

>> No.9828525

>>9828368
>>9828399
This. The Mafia/Cosa Nostra is a perfect example.

Also, think of any story ever involving a bargain, bet, or trade with a supernatural power. Diabolic contracts are the immediate thought, but so is the Green Knight (who promised anyone a chance to cut of his head so long as he could return the stroke), or even various elves, goblins, and faeries like Rumpelstiltskin. The thing these all have in common is that they were behaving evilly -- taking advantage of others -- but that they were also bound by their word. When the protagonist outwits them, they rant and rave but admit defeat. Law acts as a bridge between good and evil, where they normally would not consider intermingling.

>> No.9828532

Well, a nazi is lawful evil.
A secret policeman of any stripe is lawful evil.
A spanish inquisitor.
Any monarch ever in the real world.

>> No.9828557

Havelock Vetinari. Look him up.

>> No.9828574

>>9828525
No it's not, the mafia is a society specifically set up outside of society to circumvent and pervert that society as if a parasite. It ignores every conventional social more and law of the society it lives on.

It is NE at best.

>> No.9828576

>>9828557
vetenari is the best thing to ever happen to ankh-morpork and he actually has the city's best interests in mind. his methodology just happens to be somewhat on the evil side.

>> No.9828578

>>9828557

Vetinari doesnt have a morality alignment

He's merely Neutral Ankh Morpork

>> No.9828586

Francis Urquhart from the House of Cards, To Play the King, and The Final Cut trilogy from the BBC. He is an amazing amoral power hungry politician who uses blackmail and murder (among other methods) to secure his power.

>> No.9828601

>>9828576
>>9828578
No no, that poster is quite right, Vetinari is quite public and clear about being evil and he has a reputation for torturing people to death that is deserved.

He is a tryant in the normal bad sense that just happens to be good at his job, which is stopping the powerful from killing each other, which just happens to let the rest of the city get on with things..

>> No.9828611

>>9828578
this. vetenari is a strategist. he can't help that AM plays with an awfully wicked set of rules.

>> No.9828628

>>9828477
I would still disagree that conscious manipulation of the system of laws is not a lawful act.

But whatever. I can see by your little addendum regarding what you think my perception of lawfulness is that this is a pointless pursuit.

>> No.9828643

Seems some folk need to remember that just because you like a character doesn't make him less evil.

I had to argue that the elf assassin in dragon age was evil, jesus christ.

>> No.9828653

thanks all I appreciate the help.

>> No.9828660

>>9828653

NE? LE?

>> No.9828661

My Pathfinder sorceress is Lawful Evil. She lives ina city where the law is something to be used and abused, and corruption is so rampant even the bad guys aren't sure who is in control. She travels with a cahotic good bard and a lawful good fighter. She is very calm, collected, and friendly with her two friends, and wary and up front with anyone else. But she is absolutely, utterly, completely ruthless. If you make a deal with her, you keep to the deal or she'll rain destruction and horror on you. You attack her, her friends, or her property/people, you can expect more destruction and horror (she sent the last assassin back to his sender in a barrel after liquefying his remains with a note asking him to please stop sending assassins).

Berfectly polite and nice and calm. Until you start breaking the rules. Then all bets are off until the issue is over....and she WILL make sure the issue is OVER.

>> No.9828666

>>9828643
Really? Zevran seemed pure neutral to me. If you talk to him he doesn't really care about... well, anything.

>> No.9828672

>>9828574
D&D lawful does not mean "Follow the laws"

It means that the creature has it's own laws, code of other, or some other system of working that it focuses on and sticks to.

Just like how Monks have to be lawful, because of their personal training and codes that allow them to do what they do, but don't have to make any attempt at all to follow any outside law. So long as they follow the rules of the people that trained them and their own personal codes, they can go around breaking any law they want, because it has no bearing on their own alignment.

Now, they might have much more respect for the law and be loathe to break it without good reason, they don't have to follow the laws at all.

The Mafia's the same way. Just because their own personal codes of honor and rules to follow don't line up with the local governments set of laws doesn't mean they aren't lawful.

For example, If you take out a loan with the local mafia, they're going to squeeze you for whatever they think they can get away with, but if you do pay, they'll leave you alone.

>> No.9828676

Mafia Boss
Despot
Evil Counselor
Bad Cop

>> No.9828681

Watch District 9.
Lawful Evil is the MNU CEO's.
Debatably, Lawful Evil is also Koobus Venter.
But beyond the shadow of a doubt, the CEO's of MNU.

>> No.9828688

>>9828666
Purely a defense mechanism to stop people getting close to him and discovering a weakness or liability.

And I mean come the fuck on, killing for monetary gain is pretty fucking high up there on the evil scale. Promising mercy after a fuck then killing anyway is slightly higher.

>> No.9828697

>>9828681
Koobus Venter. seemed neutral to me maybe. he went against orders when he decided to kill wikus and was a lot more brutal than he had to be in dealing with the prawns. he seemed just in it for the sadism.

>> No.9828700

>>9828666
Zevran didn't care about killing, no, but he had absolutely no empathy for whoever he killed, was quite willing to murder someone for personal gain, and generally resorted to his own brand of violence right away if he thought it'd work in his favor.

DA tried to play more morally grey, but Zevran was one of the more evil characters. He was just likable, and not needlessly violent.

>> No.9828709

>>9828672
Right. LE respects SOME KIND of authority and SOME KIND of law or ordering of society/the world.
They have honor, even though it might be perverted in comparison with traditional honor. It's honor without goodness.

>> No.9828710

>>9828525

The media portrayal of the mafia, maybe.

>> No.9828722

Mr. Jaggers from Great expectations would be a good example

Manipulative lawyer that exploits his customers (Within the bounds of the law mind you), and is not shy about acting like a dick because he KNOWS he's top dog and he KNOWS that everyone else is terrified of him

>> No.9828724

>>9828688
Ah, true. I guess I can see that.

DA needed more evil though. Someone like Kreia from KOTOR2

>> No.9828729

>>9828672
Hence mentioning that they break more than just the common law. Claiming to create your own code that happens to let you do whatever you feel like is something a lolchaoticevil player would do.

It is also highly amusing to see people think that the mafia follows the mafia's rules, everything we know about them historically, as well as any fiction you'd care to name has them breaking these rules left and right as soon as it's convenient.

They are just a chaotic criminal element with a pr element.

>> No.9828745

>>9828710
Exactly, there is nothing to indicate adherence to any set of rules.

>> No.9828747

>>9828666
Neutral characters won't usually turn on their friends without warning because The Crows want him back.

IIRC, even if you've done his quest, you still have to convince him not to kill you when the temptation comes around.

That seems evil to me.

>> No.9828775

>>9828532
>>9828513
>>9828443
>>9828442
>>9828399
>>9828379
THANK YOU!!! I have so much trouble playing my LE character. I always end up being chaotic neutral.

>> No.9828777

>>9828574
>the mafia is a society
organized, hierarchical, demanding a level of discipline and methodology. It is not prone to allow its members to indulge in narcissistic side-endeavors. Its leadership depends on carefully considered matters of economy, profit, and tradition to establish and maintain power, not charisma or brute force. Members have chosen a system in which they are accountable to one another, follow procedures, report to superiors, and direct underlings. Such an endeavor is basically a corporation _specializing_ in the fruits of illegal activities. This is why it's call "Organized Crime".

Hence, Lawful.

>It ignores every conventional social more and law of the society it lives on.
It's members behave selfishly to the detriment of those around them, have no compunction about causing harm, and in fact choose to enter into situations knowing that they will harm others. They do this motivated primarily by personal ambition and greed.

Hence, Evil.

>> No.9828781

>>9828729
LE doesn't "create" their code though. they just choose to abide by a set of standards that are less than admirable.
a human infant is being sacrificed as part of a ritual that will allow untold destruction access to the material plane? kill the damn baby before they can finish their ritual. i like my LE characters brutally efficient

>> No.9828789

>>9828517
>loaf of beard

Does not want.

>> No.9828791

>>9828777
>NE at best

Nuetral would be a person (or organization) who is not particularly disciplined or methodical, nor narcissistic and self-centered. He will see the benefits of both organizations (such as contingency planning), as well as freedom (such as the ability to make exceptions to rules or consider "special cases"). To the perfectly lawful mind, there are no special cases. To the perfectly chaotic mind, there are no general rules. Nuetral is also frequently used in place of "no alignment," which is reserved for beings which can think, but are incapable of moral or ethical thought (such as animals and some mad men). They don't understand the choices involved, or even that this _is_ a choice involved, so they do not choose to become aligned. Beastial creatures with an alignment are magical, and have an alignment matching the power or plane which spawned them (essentially, building them from _elemental_ good-ness, evil-ness, lawful-ness, or chaos).

>> No.9828800

>>9828747
I never had any trouble at all with Zevran. I made it extremely clear that I was not to be messed with but that we could still be friends.

We were still broing it up in the throne room at the end. Never once had to ask him to not kill me. lol

>> No.9828806

Ok, if the mafia is such a problem, how about this:

Some imaginary autocrat. He takes over an imaginary nation, sets up his own system of laws and rules which he believes to be the proper way for society to operate - even though he's aware that the rules and laws cause immense suffering and harm. He finds out at some point in time that he's transgressed one of his own directives, so he has no qualms with making an example of himself.

Ohhh, like the officer in Kafka's In The Penal Colony.

>> No.9828812

>>9828724
Erm, really?
The religious fanatic giant that slaughtered a family that nursed him back to health because he lost his sword?
The spy/assassin who took advantage of nuns and had a fake religious experience to hide from her own crimes?
The witch of the wilds that kept telling me to kill people for being weak and was some kind of randroid?
The golem that constantly spoke of killing things for the joy of seeing blood and totally divorced from it's past humanity?
Shit, I'm still convinced that somebody as self righteous as the old mage MUST be evil if they're that goddamn insufferable.

>> No.9828841

>>9828729
You're making a mistake here.

We're not talking about real life mafia. We're talking about fictions version of the mafia.

LE is based on these kinds of concepts, and thus, that's how you want to play LE. You're trying to apply D&D alignments to real life organizations, which is just beyond flawed.

And sure, the laws get broken. In fiction, it's usually when someone else breaks them first. The idea behind the rules and code of honor is that it restrains everyone, keeps things from becoming a war and bringing down a higher authority. Once one side has broken the rules, the other side feels absolutely no reason to keep to them. Doing so would go right into Lawful Stupid.

And beyond that, just because an organization is lawful evil doesn't mean it's every member is lawful evil. It's going to have plenty of NE(who play by the rules when it suits them/to stay out of trouble, but will break them in a heartbeat if it benefits them, exactly as you just talked about) and perhaps a few CE(people who everyone else dislikes and avoids, but provide some service no one else does)

>> No.9828844

>>9828806
but it seems to me a fundamental part of all evil is self-preservation. a willingness to give yourself up over breaking the law seems more good than lawful.

>> No.9828860

>>9828777
>organized,
Yes
>hierarchical,
Yes
>demanding a level of discipline and methodology.
No. Beyond the average discipline of a street banger not to shoot his customers there is no real life analogue for them acting with restraint beyond the common criminal.
>It is not prone to allow its members to indulge in narcissistic side-endeavors.
They most certainly do, if they are earning they are given free reign in any casa nostra period you'd care to mention.
>Its leadership depends on carefully considered matters of economy, profit, and tradition to establish and maintain power, not charisma or brute force.
You have clearly seen only movies, and not even so much as a history channel special on the mafia. This is not true at all, every famous mafia don got there through personal violence.
>Such an endeavor is basically a corporation _specializing_ in the fruits of illegal activities. This is why it's call "Organized Crime".
Organized is not the same as lawful.

>> No.9828872

>>9828841
The problem with talking about the fictional mafia is that there are so many that do not fit the lawful evil mold.

>> No.9828873

That picture is so fucking badass I get a boner every time I see it.

>> No.9828882

>>9828812
Never got through to Sten. Eventually killed the fool when he dared to challenge me. Still, an evil character wouldn't regret the very nature of their actions would they?
Color me gullible I guess. I believed Leliana, and proceeded to romance her and have hot red-headed lesbian secks with her.
I found Morrigan's council to be rather valuable. True, she was easily a NE character, but she was upfront about it.
I thought the golem was just in it for the lulz. CN to CE maybe.

None of them gave me the same feel that Kreia did. All through KOTOR2 I felt like I had to trust her, but really, really shouldn't. She was subtle, and seemed to subvert my will at every turn. I'm still not sure how many choices I made were made because I wanted to make them, or because it's what Kreia wanted. Bitch got under my skin man. I was not surprised when she turned out to be the BBEG, but I was more scared of her than the other three sith lords combined.

>> No.9828902

>>9828882
Oh I'm sure leilanna believed it too, but listening to her history and her reasons for trying to reinvent her self, she was doing the same job as zevran, just with slightly more stealing and less killing.

Yes on kreia, I quite agree.

>> No.9828903

>>9828872
Not every single mafia has to be lawful evil, you know.

>> No.9828905

>>9828844
I think it depends on how much emphasis you want to put on the law part vs. the evil part.

LE characters can be very compelling, because they're the kind of evil that can honestly be disappointed with their own actions on a philosophical level. Idealism, even lofty idealism, doesn't have to be limited to just good characters.

I don't think that that an amount of self-sacrifice for ideals is sufficient enough to qualify as good, however - because goodness entails the courage to challenge oppression and suffering. If you're a knowing agent of oppression and suffering, then necessarily, you cannot be good.

Religious fanatics, evil cultists, etc, will offer themselves up for sacrifice."It's a great honor!" They think. Killing themselves for a greater cause - but if the greater cause is evil, then it's evil.

Cowardice and selfishness need not be part and parcel with evilness, even though it's one of the more common motivators for being evil.

>> No.9828908

To use a speeding metaphor,

A chaotic person will go over the speed limit if they feel like it, as he does not respect it or any other law.

A neutral person wont speed normally, as they dont want to get a fine, but will if they feel they can get away with it.

A lawful person will obey speed limits because they actually respect it, and think obeying the law is important.

tldr;

Chaotic people obey the law when it suits them.

Neutrals obey the law for fear of punishment but dont care much.

Lawfuls obey the law because they believe in order. However if they're personal view of good order is not the same as local law, then they will disobey it, and may seek to change it.

>> No.9828913

>>9828860
>You have clearly seen only movies, and
We're only talking about the movies. We're not talking about Sammy the Bull, or even Meyer Lansky. We're talking about Don Corleone, which you must admit _epitomizes_ LE.

Hell, even the marginally more "realistic" media out there sticks to the old Sicilian code. Unless someone out there actually follows the New York papers pretty closely, that's all you know.

>> No.9828928

If you want a good real world example, read the history of anybody throughout history who used the excuse "I was just following orders."

>> No.9828944

>>9828913
Alright, but even then, I was under the impression that one of the major plot points of the movies was that
"It was all personal."
That the whole honor code thing was thin veneer to get what they wanted and would and did break it whenever they pleased.
He murdered his brother, and broke many taboos as his first act in murdering the other dons.

>> No.9828947

>>9828557
>>9828576
>>9828578
>>9828601
>>9828611
Vetinari is Lawful Evil but mostly lawful and only evil by virtue of having pretty much no scruples when it comes to maintaining AM's unique... order.

Even then, he generally prefers the most efficient method and has tended to be rather merciful on a number of occasions because it was the practical thing to do. (in Going Postal, for example. Pic related)

In the end, the fact that someone like Carrot would like the guy and want him to remain in power speaks quite a bit for the effectiveness of Vetinari's brand of LE.

>> No.9828949

>>9828860
>You have clearly seen only movies, and not even so much as a history channel special on the mafia. This is not true at all, every famous mafia don got there through personal violence.

This is only about fucking fiction. D&D alignment doesn't fucking apply to real life situations.

You are overfuckingcomplicating the issue here by trying to bring up shit that doesn't apply to this conversation.

>> No.9828953

>>9828908
>they're
>should be their
>DURR I'MA DUMB

>> No.9828964

>>9828947

Or about Carrots questionable inner depths

>> No.9828973

>>9828947
Well, Going Postal has another good example. The man avoids just throwing the men he so sorely wants out of his way in jail without reason because while he could do it, the public response could be very bad.

So he sticks to lawful not because he respects the law, but because he wants others to respect him.

And Carrot, I think has more issues with not wanting to be king over Vimes and his view on Kings than his belief in Vet's suitability.

>> No.9828984

>>9828908
Anon has a good post here. Yup.

>> No.9828986

>>9828947
i can't necessarily argue that he doesn't mostly act LE, but i think vetenari is true neutral in the sense that if a lawful good approach was what ankh-morpork required to keep itself running, he would be right there to provide it.

>> No.9828990

>>9828953
You know, I'm a stickler for grammar as much as any other person, but when it's your only response to someone's post, it makes you look rather desperate.

>> No.9828992

>>9828947
>Vetinari is Lawful Evil but mostly lawful and only evil by virtue of having pretty much no scruples when it comes to maintaining AM's unique... order.
But the books are clear that he has no scruples... ever.
>Even then, he generally prefers the most efficient method and has tended to be rather merciful on a number of occasions because it was the practical thing to do. (in Going Postal, for example. Pic related)
Efficient isn't the same as merciful, in the example you have given us somebody else is going to hang in his place even now.
>In the end, the fact that someone like Carrot would like the guy and want him to remain in power speaks quite a bit for the effectiveness of Vetinari's brand of LE.
Carrot suffers him only so long as he doesn't go full blown evil, and is strongly influenced by his captains anti-monarchist opinions. He rightly believes that a bad tyrant put in place by an oligarchy is still better than the best king put there by 'divine right'.

One day the tyrant will die.

>> No.9829002

>>9828990
I thought that reply was the poster that made the "they're" mistake. You know, making fun of himself.

>> No.9829012

>>9828992

So basically... when Vimes dies... Vetinari is gonna be in twouble

>> No.9829013

>>9828986
But he'd do it from lawful evil motivations.

Does anybody remember the whole villains versus heroes speech he gave vimes at the end of guards guards? He's wearing that E badge with pride.

>> No.9829026

>>9829012
Naw sorry, I meant to say that a good king will probably have a bad successor with full powers. An oligarchy will only suffer the tyrant as long as he governs well.

>> No.9829036

First, remember that alignments are abstract. There are certain traits which are by their nature more good than evil, more lawful than chaotic, and so on. Each action, it's motives and ends can all be seen as a constellation of such traits. Remember that the alignment of a person (not just a single act) or organization (not just a single member) is a composite of all of these activities.

Practical examples without context will always be limited, and it's always possible for someone to come up with an edge case. ("Hurr what if he only gave to charity to look good and get laid that night. THAT PROVES INHERENTLY GOOD ACTS ARE BULLSHIT Durr.")

One way to understand the Law/Chaos axis, consider whether a person tends toward the general, or the personal. A chaotic person does not fully acknowledge outside powers, and so tends towards the personal. A lawful person may operate according to general rules, even when it becomes evident that he's on the losing end of such a procedure.

A chaotic person is more prone to go with his gut, do what seems right to him, or do what seems like a good idea at the time. A lawful person might consider his options in the full context of the situation, do what could be argued to be right for everyone or even most people, or do what has been done in the past.

>> No.9829045

>>9829012
Likely not. Carrot has said he'll only really become a king if the city really, really needs it.

He himself doesn't really like his inherited abilities anyways. As he said himself "People should follow the law because it's the law, not because I ask them to."

>> No.9829052

>>9829002
Possible, but given his other mistakes, I don't think so. He'd have a lot more to fix.

>> No.9829063

>>9829012
no way. vetenari has made it quite clear that vimes still exists because he permits him to. he may not directly agree with his methodology and he tries to keep him too busy to do TOO much good, but i think havelock is sincerely somewhat fond of sir samuel.
he's also careful not to directly undermine vimes in a show of bad graces. remember when he was being poisoned by the candles in his bedroom? vetenari had obviously figured it out long before vimes and was still allowing himself to get sick.
motha fucka knows the business.

>> No.9829069

>>9828661
This is pretty good example right here.

>> No.9829074

>>9829036
>acts are composites of traits, people are composites of acts, organizations are composites of members, each level of the hierarchy being weighed and evaluated
A lawful approach towards alignment

>DM: no, that just seems like a neutral act to me.
A chaotic approach towards alignment

And then the table explodes into a metagame apocalypse.

>> No.9829103

>>9829063
Well, in some ways I think the man feels he needs to be careful with Vimes. After all, trying to jug his chain around too much before has caused some big problems.

>> No.9829110

>>9829063
Yeah, Vetinari does seem to genuinely like Vimes. I dunno, I'd personally find Vetinari a likable guy. Though frankly I'd be ashamed of being unable to match his genius wit and thus making for a rather poor conversation.

>> No.9829132

Lawful Evil: a Flowchart

>> No.9829134

>>9829063
Also, Vetinari pretty much figured out the time travel shennanigans in Night Watch, from what I recall. Pretty fucking impressive.

>> No.9829135

>>9829063
Vetenari recognized that vimes would be a major player long before vimes had any idea.
It is hinted that vetenari 'created' vimes or would have to if he didn't already exist.
At the current state of the books vimes is a factor he has to balance out the same way he balances the guilds and the nobles.

>> No.9829136

>>9829074
Only if you're playing a game in which the characters are playing a game. The alignment system doesn't hold up IRL.

>> No.9829140

>>9829132
That's chaotic evil you retard.

>> No.9829144

>>9829103
true, he's realized vimes is not as easy to control a pawn as most of the guild leaders and such, who amusingly enough are the ones typically seeking to dismantle him as patrician. but it seems that vetenari still has him right where he wants him.

>>9829110
he's likeable as a character because he's infinitely clever and amusing, but if he were an actual figure of authority you had to report to, you'd probably hate his slimy black guts.

>> No.9829146

>>9829110

>Vetinari a likable guy

But what if he uses *shudders* SARCASM?

>> No.9829150

>>9829134
Only at the end, and really, only because out of everyone there, he was in the best position to actually figure it out.

No one else really ended up with the same info he did, or ended up biased in other ways.

>> No.9829152

>>9829132
that's chaotic evil...

>> No.9829155

I just now remembered that pratchett has alzhaimer
feelsbadman.jpg

>> No.9829156

>>9829140
More like Chaotic Stupid, but agreed.

>> No.9829163

>>9829110
>>9828643

>> No.9829173

>>9829140
It depends. Is the character (not just the PC) actually following the flowchart? Because killing everyone on the planet just because your boss told you to follow up on the action items of the last Evil, Inc. staff meeting sure sound Lawful Evil.

>> No.9829183

>>9829136
>The alignment system doesn't hold up IRL.
Most people I've found who say that tend to lean towards chaotic....

>> No.9829199

Lawful Evil: A motivator/demotivator.

>> No.9829201

>>9829183
You talking about me? I'm TN if anything. My background is in anthropology.

>> No.9829216

>>9829183
Or, you know, realizing that without universal concepts of good and evil to stand behind, attempting to categorize the extremely complex and varied behaviors of humans isn't as easy as a simple 9 categories.

>> No.9829224

>>9829216
See, this guy gets it.

>> No.9829254

>>9829201
That was actually a joke. But if we want to be serious, my background is engineering, so pretty much everything tends toward "lawful."

There's some point where you can argue, "there exists some system where this all makes complete sense, and that's the system I am subscribing to today," and Law wraps back around to chaos. I think most of those people become lawyers.

>> No.9829265

>>9829216
joke
----
head

>> No.9829276

>>9829144
I dunno, being one of his clerks seems like an interesting job. He's generally pretty amiable with them too.

I think I'm a bit too idealistic to be totally on board with Vetinari's means of keeping everything running, but I would never try to go head to head with him on anything. Just introduce new factors that he'd inevitably work into the fabric of AM.

>> No.9829285

>>9829265
>>9829254
Then tell it so that it sounds more like a joke.

>> No.9829321

>>9829285
SO THIS ANON LURKS INTO AN ALIGNMENT THREAD...

>> No.9829351

YOU WANT LAWFUL EVIL?

WARNING: The following is the end speech from Terry Pratchett's "Guards! Guards!" Should you be reading this book, or wish to in the near future, you may wish to avoid this post to prevent spoilers (Though i do not believe there are any.)

"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." He waved his thin hand over the city and walked over to the window. "A great rolling sea of evil," he said, almost proprietorially "Shallower in some places, of course, but deeper, so so much deeper in others. But people like you put together little rafts of rules and vaguely good intentions, and say, this is the opposite, this will triumph in the end Amazing!" He slapped Vimes good-naturedly on the back. "Down there," he said, "are people who will follow any dragon, worship any god, ignore any iniquity. All out of a kind of humdrum, everyday badnss. Not the really high, creative loathsomeness of the great sinners, but a sort of mass-produced darkness of the soul. Sin, you might say, without a trace of originality. They accept not because they say yes, but because they don't say no. I'm sorry if this offends you," he added, pattign the captain's shoulder. "but you fellows really need us."

(cont)

>> No.9829388

>>9829351
"Yes,sir?" said Vimes quietly.
"Oh, yes. We're the only ones who know how to make things work You see, the only thing the good people are good at is overthrowing the bad people. And you're good at that, I'll grant you. But the trouble is that it's the only thing you're good at. One day it's the ringing of the bells and the casting down of the tyrant, and the next it's everyone sitting around complaining that ever since the tyrant was overthrown no-one's been taking out the trash. Because bad people know how to plan. It's part of the specification, you might say. Every evil tyrant has a plan to rule the world. The good people don't seem to have the knack."

-Havelock Vetinari

>> No.9829459

>>9829351
>>9829388

Not only have you just won the thread, you have just won /tg/ for the evening.

That is the best insight into the LE mindset I have ever seen, ever.

>> No.9829502

He does have one other speech, that might be equally good, if less directly spoken. You want that one too?

>> No.9829507

>> No.9829518

Silly me,
>>9829502
is meant to be a response to
>>9829459

>> No.9829607

>>9829502
>>9829518
yes please

>> No.9829804

>>9829607
Then it shall be done.

(NOTE: This is from Terry Pratchett's "Unseen Academicals" It contains no plot points, but if you wish to only see it's awesome fully in context, you are hereby warned.)

"Archchancellor, I see evil when I look in my shaving mirror. It is, philosophically, everywhere in the universe in order, apparently, to highlight the existence of good. I think there is more to this theory, but I tend to burst out laughing at this point."
The Patrician took a sip of his beer. "I have told this to few people, gentlemen, and I suspect I never will again, but one day when I was a young boy on holiday in Uberwald I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter and her cubs. A very endearing sight, I'm sure you will agree, and even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged on to a half-submerged log."

(cont)

>> No.9829832

>> No.9829839

>>9829804

"As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split open and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature's wonders, gentlemen: mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that's when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain."

>> No.9829862

>>9829832

>> No.9829868

>>9829862

>> No.9829881

These demotivators are fucking terrible. Half of them have nothing to do with Lawful Evil.

>> No.9829924

>>9829862
>>9829832

Those aren't demotivators, those are fucking AMVs.

>> No.9829929

>>9829924
AMVs?

>> No.9829933

>>9829868
Shouldn't that say save $-9.99?

>> No.9829939

The bad guy from a knight's tale.

>> No.9829954

>Gregor Clegane
>Chaotic Evil

Gregor follows the orders of Tywin and kills his enemies. you're a fuckin idiot.

>> No.9829958

>>9829929

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6HkYtLmi6Q
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Amv

>> No.9829968

>>9829954
ITT: Doing what you're told is Lawful Evil, hurrdurr...

>> No.9830041

>>9829954
see this
>>9829968

>> No.9830130

Every time run a LE char, he's a wizard with a law degree

>>
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