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9669992 No.9669992 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Hey /tg/, question:
Do railguns have recoil?

Also: Starship image dump

>> No.9669998
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>> No.9670004

Yes, they do

>> No.9670008
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>> No.9670016

Yes, railguns have recoil. Lrn2 Newton.

>> No.9670020
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>>9670004
+1

>> No.9670023
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>>9670004
Thanks. Is it comparable to a firearm of similar size? Less? More?

>> No.9670030

>>9669992
Yes. Quite the fuckton of recoil if we're talking a decent sized railgun.

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>> No.9670039
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>> No.9670050

>>9670023
It is entirely dependent on the speed at which the projectile is fired, and it's mass.

Recoil can be mitigated if spread out over a larger gun too. The heavier the gun, the lower the recoil felt.

Hence why in fiction and in real life, most railguns fire very small, light projectiles at enormous speeds.

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>> No.9670072
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>>9670050
Thanks, mate

>> No.9670074

>>9670023
Quite a lot more on account of how energy is transferred to the gun when using chemical propulsion, I.E not all of it is.
In a railgun the mechanism itself is subjected to the same forces as the projectile so recoil is high.

There are of course many ways to limit the EFFECT of recoil and railguns utilize these systems, namely, the railguns recently built by Britain for the U.S.

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>> No.9670095
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>> No.9670112

Yes. They also try very hard to rip themselves apart every time you fire them. The lorentz force exerted on the projectile is a fraction of that which is exerted on the two rails (they push away from each other).

>> No.9670117
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>> No.9670118

>>9670023
probably comparable to a naval gun battery, since they didn't even think about putting a railgun on anything toher than a dedicated warship.

>> No.9670130

>>9670112
>The lorentz force exerted on the projectile is a fraction of that which is exerted on the two rails (they push away from each other).

didn't know that. Wow. Just wow.

How exactly do they keep from breaking?

>> No.9670131
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>> No.9670138

This is some /w/ shit, dude.

>> No.9670145
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>>9670130
educational thread is educational

>> No.9670149

It would appear everything in the 40k universe has recoil, despite the Misapplication of Newtons third law to things like...lasers. :-/

Lasguns and lascannon apparently have recoil - (In dawn of war it's obvious anyway), so...

In the GRIMDARK future of 40k, everything has recoil.

>> No.9670151

>>9670138
Wait, I lied. What's the guns/weapons board?

>> No.9670172

>>9670149
They also have muzzle flash. Hilariously.

>> No.9670174

yes and no.

The magnetic forces push the two rails apart, so the bulk of the recoil is outward, stressing the barrel, rather than the backwards 'kick' that most people think of when talking about recoil. Current prototype must be re-calibrated after each shot, IIRC.


If fired in atmosphere, the shock wave from the air igniting as the slug leaves the barrel will force the barrel backwards slightly (assuming the railgun in question is as powerful as the prototype that the US military is testing at White Sands Missile Base).

Why the question, OP?

>> No.9670178

>>How exactly do they keep from breaking?

They don't. That's the biggest engineering constraint - motherfuckers break too easy.

>> No.9670185

>>9669992
Yes.

>> No.9670189
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>>9670151
/k/
I posted it here because I'm looking into for a sci-fi setting.
That and I don't trust /k/ to not get into an argument about 'slavshit' or something else like that.

>> No.9670208
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>>9670174
see
>>9670189

>> No.9670210

I would like to make a possible correction. Logically, one would expect a railgun to have recoil, but I'm fairly sure that the force that goes into trying to tear the rails apart, the Lorentz force, IS its recoil.

>> No.9670213
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLpgxry542M
physics motherfucker

>> No.9670219
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Newton is not amused by this thread

>> No.9670222

>>9670172
Trying to make it ok in my brain i concoct large excuses, like
The mechanism that creates the energy for the laser uses a huge cyclic motor which creates a jerking centrifugal force, which then EMULATES recoil.

The flash - obviously poor maintenance of the emitter array by the guardsman.

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>> No.9670257
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>> No.9670263

>>9670118
actually, the US military has expressed interest in arming future models of Abrams tanks with small rail cannons.

>> No.9670280

Since it's the rails being forced apart that damages a railgun (Apparently), why not have floating rails, or ones that are DESIGNED to be forced apart?

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>> No.9670291

>>9670263
I think GE is trying to design an electrical tank with a rail gun as its main armament. Could just be making shit up, though.

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>>9670174
This is essentially the case, though it's worth mentioning that a lot of models and designs have the projectile being fired into the rails in order to increase the its speed when it leaves.

>>9670130
>>How exactly do they keep from breaking?
Large bolts, thousands of them. When ever I see a large rail gun which just has two rails and nothing in between them I always laugh about how, when fired, those two rails are going to fly off in opposite directions and kill shit dead.

>> No.9670312

Yes railguns produce recoil because Mass is being moved very quickly away from the source.

Some of the recoil is distributed laterally along the rails of the weapon as well as back so the material strength takes some of the energy. It is however less felt recoil than a conventional round. fired at the same speed.

considering the difference in size and velocity of each projectile you could argue that their about the same. the railgun might fire less massive objects but fires it several orders of magnitude faster than the larger guns.

>> No.9670313

>>9670280
There's so much wrong with that I don't know where to begin.

>> No.9670321
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>> No.9670323

>>9670178
I think the current White Sands prototype needs replacement parts after every ten firings, but I'm not sure. I'm about two-years out of the loop on it. Last I heard their highest muzzle velocity was Mach 14. I'm sure they've increased it by now.

>> No.9670325

>>9670280
size contraints and extra moving parts.
it would be better to renforce the shit out of the rails to hold them in place.

>> No.9670340
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Again, thanks for being super helpful /tg/

>> No.9670345

>>9670312

Isn't the point of railgun is utilizing magnetic rails to eliminate friction and force from the launched projectile?

>> No.9670359

According to Newtons Third Law, yes.
Even a Laser gun has Recoil as Photons become active.

See MIT notes.

>> No.9670363

>>9670313
>I DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE ANY ARGUMENT, I JUST WANT TO SOUND SMART.

>> No.9670369

>>9670310
>those two rails are going to fly off in opposite directions and kill shit dead.
makes it extra killy

>> No.9670376

Coilguns were here, railguns are overrated.

>> No.9670381

>>9670280
Well it would be a one shot wonder, and those rails don't are just as dangerous as what ever projectile you're firing if they break apart.

If you're only going to have a single shot rail gun, then it doesn't rally justify the cost of building, installing (or transporting) the power supply and capacitors for it.

Besides, we can make rails guns that don't fly apart, it's making ones that don't melt or wear down after a few shots that's the real challenge right now.

>> No.9670383

>>9670359
would the recoil from the lazer gun even be noticable?

>> No.9670386

>>9670313
I do.

>>9670280
If they tried, then the floating rails would get misaligned after the first shot. The same as warping the inside of a barrel on a conventional gun. That means the second shot will jam and probably destroy the gun, the device housing the gun, and everyone nearby. It can't be done.

>> No.9670389

also note that the rails are not the parts which need replacing all the time (Thought they do need replacing sometimes), the parts which take the most damage during firing are the projectile connection terminals inside the rails, these often melt.

>> No.9670399

Actually I meant something like having the rails be on... rails.

Short ones, with lots of rubber padding to soak up the excess energy and bounce them back into place afterward.

>> No.9670400
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>>9670376
Well yes, this too.

>> No.9670416

>>9670389
any idea what their made of?

>> No.9670418

>>9670149
Uh... they would have recoil. Just minuscule amounts of them.

>> No.9670420

>>9670386
>Implying they can't create floating rails that will realign automatically after each shot

>> No.9670427

>>9670399
We know what you meant and on paper it sounds good but in practice it actually makes a whole shit-load more problems

>> No.9670442
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>> No.9670449

Yes, lasers have recoil, activated photons have mass.
End of story.

>> No.9670463

>>9670399
>sensitive eltrical equipment bouncing around
its just not a good idea man.
best way to go would be to build it right into the superstructure of the ship its on.
the crews defently gona feel it when it fires.

>> No.9670475

>>9670383
Not on the scale most people think of when they think of lasers.

But there are designs for spacecraft drives that use mirrors and lasers to propel ships. The ISV venture star in AVATAD (only good part of that movie) used one of these for the acceleration phase of it's journey to Pandora.

>> No.9670484

>>9670427
I am not an engineer, so yes, I sort of expected that. Would you care to say why, or shall I remain in the dark?

The only argument I saw so far is that it would add a lot more moving parts. That's true, and in general is considered a bad idea, but then again, a machine gun has a lot more moving parts than a matchlock, but I doubt anyone will claim it doesn't make up for it. How would my idea not do that?

>> No.9670488

>>9670383
Generally, no.

Unless it's a really fucking huge laser.

>> No.9670502

>>9670345
it greatly reduces but does not eliminate it. you can do more damage with a kinetic projectile fired at railgun speeds than you can with a conventional chemical propelled weapon.

you also don't have to store volatile chemical propellants leaving more room for ammunition and less danger from a "powder magazine" being hit.

>> No.9670510
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>>9670488
Noted. How big are we looking at?

>> No.9670513

>>9670463
Sensitive electrical equipment?

I was under the impression that it was just a metal rod you shot electricity through to make a big, nasty magnetic field. If, in reality, it's a complicated mess of circuitry, then I rescind my idea as silly.

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>> No.9670547

>>9670484
The rails, if allowed to move, would disengage from the projectile, substantially reducing accuracy, range, and power.

One idea I've heard to solve the problem of railguns raping themselves is to use an aluminum projectile which partially vaporizes upon being fired. Plasma then conducts the current from the rails to the projectile. However, there would be a buildup of aluminum in the gun as a result.

>> No.9670552
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>> No.9670560

>>9670381
if you're going to make it disposable, might as well make it a nuclear-pumped intersolar weapons flinging a ton of impact-gasified metallic hydrogen.

>> No.9670564

>>9670484
Well it's just that the forces produced by a large enough railgun to actually warrant being used are so immense upon the accelerating rails that the rails themselves have to be reinforced. This makes them big and heavy.
Having big and heavy rails in a floating system means that the system also has to be big and heavy, this means that everything gets bigger and heavier.

There's also the fact that you do not want the rails to move away from the projectile as it is accelerated, unlike a chemical bullet force isn't only applied at one end, it is applied along the entire length of the barrel. if the rails moved away from the projectile whilst they were under stress then the propulsion would be lessened and accuracy would go to shit.

It's a good idea in smaller railguns though.

>> No.9670567

>>9670510
Like colony laser big.

>> No.9670569
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>> No.9670574

>>9670547
Basically, it'd be like using a bow but never drawing the string fully.

>> No.9670575

>>9670513
see
>>9670310

>> No.9670588
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>>9670567
Good to know.

>> No.9670593

>>9670513
This metal rod needs to be aimed at something, usually while both target and firer are moving, at long range.

>> No.9670594

>>9670510
Like, really big.

I don't know the specifics, but lets just say if you have a laser which is producing a significant amount of recoil, I feel really, really sorry for whatever the hell was in front of you.

>> No.9670596

>>9670547
You could maybe dry-fire it once in a while to dislodge the buildup. Or just clean it a lot.

And if you say so, ok, silly idea.

Still, that's kind of a bad design. A gun that rips itself apart isn't exactly a great weapon.

Do coilguns have the same problem? If not, why not use them instead?

>> No.9670608

Why are you guys talking about Railguns when you have pictures of ships from homeworld that use Mass Drivers.

That's more of a gauss thing.

>> No.9670613
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>> No.9670614

>>9670608
just images to keep people interested

>> No.9670624

>>9670596
>dry-fire a railgun

You... you have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

>> No.9670627

>>9670596
Coilguns are substantially less powerful.

Also, I don't think it's possible to dry fire a rail gun, since without the projectile, the circuit isn't completed. Assuming voltage was high enough for the electricity to ark from one rail to the other regardless, you just did a very, very bad thing.

>> No.9670628
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>> No.9670637

To avoid the issue of the breaking/moving away you'd want a kind of stepped coilgun/quenchgun concept that uses multiple magnets that are allowed to move rather than two rails which aren't.

Then as the projectile goes through them and the magnets shove each other away harmlessly (one after another in a sequence) you can realign them much easier with less mechanical stress.

You get a much lower velocity, but you could fire a heavier projectile to accommodate.

>> No.9670640
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>>9670614
Spot on.

>> No.9670644

>>9670627
The kind of bad thing that usually happens to things on the OTHER end of a railgun.

>> No.9670648

>>9670594
like, an optical phased array built as a dyson sphere, big.

>> No.9670655

>>9670624
Nope. I have admitted as such.

I'm the guy who thought they were just metal rods you electrified to make a magnetic field between, remember? I didn't even know you needed a completed circuit.

>>9670627
Wait, so the projectile is actually in CONTACT with the rails?...

That sounds incredibly stupid.

>> No.9670670

>>9670637
It wouldn't be as powerful, and it would be much less efficient.

The US is developing a mobile mortar system using a coilgun to launch shells, though.

>> No.9670674
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>>9670648
In that case, good to know and I hope it doesn't come up.

>> No.9670678

I made a gauss rifle once.
And before anyone jumps on me let me explain, it was crap. It was an actual GAUSS propulsion system, using only natural earth magnets, no electricity involved.

1) I'm just a guy living in a shed, it was shit
2) it had a range of about 10meters
3) it was about as accurate as trying to throw a bumblebee
4) it made a SHITLOAD of noise
5) it broke itself often
6) it was awesome ;.;

it fired 1/2" BB's.

>> No.9670681

>>9670674
Indeed. Shit would probably blow holes in the universe.

>> No.9670683

>>9670513
Yes, it's not just a metal rail. Every square inch of the rail is covered in capacitors that store and transmit energy, and prevent feedback from frying the equipment. The power input must be precisely monitored, because if one rail puts out less energy than the other, the projectile will bounce around the barrel, ruining the weapon, and that monitoring takes equipment. Railguns are not simple weapons.

>>9670420
no, they can't.

>>9670484
ok, you have moving parts. But there's no such thing as moving parts that don't suffer wear-and-tear, and they would need stabilizing parts to keep them from being shattered with each shot. So that adds two more levels of complexity to the weapon, and triples the maintenance expectations. End result: Bad idea.

>> No.9670688

The problem is that if the rails move while the projectile is traveling along them, that affects the propulsion of the projectile. You need that field to be totally symmetrical (else the projectile will go off course, probably directly into something sensitive in your gun assembly).

Once the projectile is gone, you just cut the juice and the rails don't wanna move anymore.

Mechanical dampening systems would be... I mean, you could do it, but that's a hell of a lot of a reliability issue. If one of them doesn't damp quite as quickly as another, then the projectile is going to augur into the side of your barrel and spray shrapnel around...

>> No.9670690

my favorite example of a coil gun would have to be those orbital defence stations in the halo universe
>These cannons fire a 3000-ton ferric-tungsten round at nearly 50% the speed of light
just thinking about it makes me giggle.

>> No.9670696

>>9670655
Read this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun

Don't talk till you have.

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>> No.9670702

>>9670655
It wouldn't work without the projectile being in contact. That's entirely how railguns work.

>> No.9670704
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9670704

GUYS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gun

Can you all please read this before coming back to discuss this because the level of basic ignorance is staggering.

A rail gun uses a conductive projectile which is in contact with the rails making a complete circuit. If the rails move apart the contact is broken and it doesn't work. You cannot "dry fire" a rail gun.

>> No.9670711

Thing is, a lower level of efficiency is fine so long as you don't frag your own rails in the process. With a coilgun/quenchgun concept you could fire a higher volume of shit at the enemy. And when you're talking about nonguided projectiles in space, more is pretty good, and it doesn't really take an awful lot of oomph to kill a target.

So I'd say go with a coilgun design and launch a steel rail at the enemy.

>> No.9670717

>>9670696
>>9670704
Wikimind.

>> No.9670724
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>>9670696
Hey now, this is a thread for educating the unenlightened. His grasping in the dark is very informative when ya'll correct him.

>> No.9670725

>>9670690
Yes, because it's terrible physics.

THINK about the kind of energy needed to move a projectile that heavy that fast, and ask yourself: Why didn't humanity curbstomp the Covenant instantly upon our first meeting and in every battle thereafter?

>> No.9670727

>>9669992
wikipedia... 2 minuets

The rails and projectiles must be built from strong conductive materials; the rails need to survive the violence of an accelerating projectile, and heating due to the large currents and friction involved. The recoil force exerted on the rails is equal and opposite to the force propelling the projectile. The seat of the recoil force is still debated. The traditional equations predict that the recoil force acts on the breech of the railgun. Another school of thought invokes Ampère's force law and asserts that it acts along the length of the rails (which is their strongest axis). The rails also repel themselves via a sideways force caused by the rails being pushed by the magnetic field, just as the projectile is. The rails need to survive this without bending, and must be very securely mounted.

>> No.9670751
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>>9670727
Yes. This, however, fosters an interesting discussion and gives me an excuse to dump my starship folder.

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>> No.9670764

>>9670690

Makes you wonder how the hell humans lost, considering one of those shots would have enough energy to completely shatter the crust of an earthlike planet (assuming it didn't deform into plasma upon encountering atmosphere and igniting EVERYTHING).

>> No.9670770

>>9670696
Gave it a try. After clicking through half a dozen of the terms in an effort to understand the science necessary to understand the other science, I gave up.

I need to go to school for three or four more years before any of this makes sense, and it would be a school COMPLETELY outside my field of choice. So no, I'll just continue not knowing things thanks.

>> No.9670776

>>9670725
As far as I know, only Earth had a shit load of those orbital defense platforms, and they can't effectively target anything like fighters or generally small warships like a frigate. There was also the matter of energy supply as the fuck huge coil guns needed the power of that of a small city or some shit.

>> No.9670780

>>9670725
superior numbers, weapons that pass though ship armor like its not even there.
the humans could kick ass on the ground but in space the kept getting their shit pushed in.
also those orbital stations were power by massive ground side generators

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>> No.9670799

>>9670770
Then get out of this thread and wallow in your ignorance, we don't fucking want you here. Do they not teach physics where you live? Jesus fucking christ, I'm a History student and I understand the science at play here.

>> No.9670802

>>9670751
The trolling/ignorance gets old, fast. Not you, but Alpharius, thinking he's smarter than every technologically advanced military in the world which is pursuing railgun technology when he doesn't know shit about it.

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>> No.9670833
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>> No.9670844

>>9670776
reach had those platforms to, but the aliens decided against throwing their ships up against the orbital defence stations instead launched smaller craft to the surface of the planet to take out the generators powering the stations.

>> No.9670845

>>9670799
>>9670802
Did I say I thought I was smarter? I've repeatedly admitted to not understanding any of it, I just think it's cool and wish to know more about it without having dozens of physics terms thrown in my face which I have no hope of understanding because I have NEVER studied any of this. It's not my field. I'm a BUSINESS student for god's sake.

This is /tg/. Not /sci/. It's for fun, not for elitism.

>> No.9670859
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9670859

>>9670845
>It's for fun, not for elitism.
Another reason I posted the question here.

>> No.9670862

>>9670690
Just ran the numbers.

That's 33750000000000000000000 joules.

I'm just trying to find the exact numbers to express how many MILLIONS of Hiroshimas that is.

>> No.9670868
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>> No.9670876

The solution to the heat problem of the rails is twofold: superconductors to negate the high currents, and frictionless materials to overcome (duh) friction. Of course, with frictionless materials you're opening up a potential can of batshit, like shotguns with frictionless flechettes or what have you.

>> No.9670878
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>> No.9670883

>>9670845
There is no way of explaining this without using specific physics terminology. Really fucking easy physics terminology too. Current, force. What fucked up country are you from that doesn't teach you that?

>> No.9670884
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9670884

>> No.9670890

>>9670845
See
>>9670655
>that sounds incredibly stupid

MOVING ON...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt_class_destroyer

Free Electron Lasers, Railguns, and guided missiles, oh my.

>> No.9670891

>>9670862
in the books and games its stated that it would smash right though even the biggest alien sheilds and ships, and then still have enough energy to face rape another ship it it was behind the first one.

>> No.9670901
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9670901

>>9670876
>shotguns with frictionless flechettes
I need new pants.

>> No.9670903
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9670903

obligatory

>> No.9670922
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>> No.9670928

Why are you thinkinf of railguns? They are shit. shit shit shit shit shit.
Gaus guns is where it's at. Rail guns have epic wear on the firing rods, also friction and heat. Messy. Where as gaus guns have none of those problems.

>> No.9670932

>>9670862
about 300000 megatons?
per shot, and the stations could reload and recharge and be ready for another shot in 5-6 seconds.

>> No.9670939

>>9670876
read: >>9670928

>> No.9670940
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9670940

>> No.9670957

>>9670890
Well it DOES.

Why not just have the circuit completed with, I dunno, a wire? Anything but the projectile that's about to go screaming out the end of the barrel at ten times the speed of sound.

Like I said, I don't know anything about it. Maybe it IS the smartest way to do things. But to the lay person, it just sounds really dumb.

>> No.9670968
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9670968

>>9670928
Well, I understand coilguns and railguns now.
I'm still completely ignorant as to gauss weaponry however. Enlighten me?

>> No.9670981

>>9670957

Whatever completes the circuit between the two rails is what gets accelerated to ballshredding speeds. So, yeah.

>> No.9670986

>>9670968
gauss guns are coil guns

>> No.9670987

>>9670968
gauss is just a synonym for coilgun

>> No.9670990

>>9670957
And that's why there's no point in conversing with you. You confess a lack of knowledge yet still make such critical assessments. Good day, son.

>> No.9671001
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9671001

>> No.9671010

>>9670990
Eat a dick. Complaining about shit you know nothing about is the right of all sentient beings.

>> No.9671015

>>9670932
fuck i would love to see that test fired on a moon or something

>> No.9671019
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9671019

>>9670986
>>9670987
Ah. Wasn't it established elsewhere that coilguns are less 'ballshredding' than railguns?

>> No.9671027

>>9671010

Pretty much why everyone's complaining about you right now.

>> No.9671036
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>> No.9671039

>>9670891
That would fuck up PLANETS, bro.

We're talking relativistic kill vehicle shit right here. Best estimates of the thing that wiped the dinosaurs put it around 4×10^23J. This... thing is 3.375x10^24.

In layman's terms that's *a lot more*.

>> No.9671046

>>9670890
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt_class_destroyer

They forgot: Fucking thing is a complete catastrophe with no real sea-keeping abilities that is liable to permanently become a submarine in the first rough sea it encounters. Even the Navy itself wants more Burkes instead by now.

>> No.9671055
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9671055

>>9671039
Sweet Jesus!

>> No.9671067

Gaus, coil doesn't matter how you name it. the idea is that the mechanism doesn't touch the rounds.
With railguns it does. It's how railguns work. the bullet completes the circuit. Also railguns suck.

>> No.9671070

>>9671019
They're significantly less powerful, less efficient, less accurate...

>> No.9671072

>>9671010
Just go away, the kids who passed sixth grade physics are talking.

>> No.9671078

So why are coilguns worse than railguns?

>> No.9671085

>>9671039
of course thats the BIG guns of the humans in the halo universe, their ships have smaller versions and it would take about 3-4 good hits to kill a alien ship.

>> No.9671093
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>> No.9671095

>>9671070
But also don't have the critical drawbacks of breaking/melting themselves with every shot fired.

>> No.9671100

>>9671046
Seriously? Never heard that before.

>> No.9671101

>>9671078

They don't fire rounds as ballshredding as the ones the railguns do.

>> No.9671105
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>> No.9671107

>>9671078
They aren't you fucking faggot! It's the other way around.
ARRRGH!

>> No.9671110

>>9671085
That's settled. Haloverse is even more retarded than 40k.

>> No.9671118

>>9671072
>Sixth Grade

>Physics

Wait, what?

>> No.9671127
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>> No.9671128

>>9671015
doesn't mars have three or four that it's not using?

that'd be great

>> No.9671134

>>9670957
it's a fundamental, basic, obvious part of the way electromagnetism works. you are saying the equivalent of, fuck, something like, why don't people at the bottom of the earth fall off. it's the difference between a person who passed middle school, and a 10 year old 3 standard deviations below average IQ - that's a 45, IIRC.
For god's sake, I hope even business majors know what a standard deviation is.

>> No.9671139
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9671139

>>9671118
Must be a different education system.

>> No.9671144

>>9671101
You are full of shit too. The rounds do not matter. Infact with the same amount of electricity used you can fire the same projectile faster with a gausgun because there'd be no friction and heatloss.

>> No.9671154
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>> No.9671161

>>9671144
You have no idea how this shit works, do you?

>> No.9671166
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>> No.9671171

>>9671139
Apparently. We didn't have physics until highschool, where it was an elective. Which I didn't take, because biology sounded more interesting.

>> No.9671173

Coil guns use magnetic fields to accelerate without having to touch the projectile (which can be in a magnetically inert barrel for rifling). Think maglev trains. They're significantly more complex in design than rail guns, and have much lower limits on what can be done with them (magnetic saturation and such).

Rail guns are incredibly simple in principle and shatter themselves to pieces.

>> No.9671176
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9671176

Ignorance all around!
Have a spaceship.

>> No.9671177

>>9671110
well the human ships need to take that many shots because they use the ships reactors to power them, the stations have no on board generators they use MASSIVE dedicated reactors on the surface to power them.

>> No.9671179

>>9671128
Two, but they're retarded little potato shaped things, nobody would miss them.

>> No.9671189

>>9671161
I would say i do have some idea how stuff works.
How'd you get in your heads railguns are somehow better then gausguns?
With railguns the projectile is violently dragged across the two rails of the railgun and is propelled forward by the righthand rule.
With gausguns you don't have the bullet touching the gausgun it's propelled by the magnetic field only. Thus no wear and tear and melting of the rods. No need for frictionless materials to make the gun from. No need for supercooling the gauscoils either.

>> No.9671191
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9671191

>>9671171
And it was. Yay biology.

>> No.9671200

>>9671171
google or wiki "right hand rule" and left hand rule." that's how a railgun works.

>> No.9671204
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9671204

>> No.9671212

>>9671179
how big are they? would the slug pass right though them or are we gona see it expend all kinetic energy on it?

>> No.9671213

>>9671179
First contact with aliens.

"Human, we saw you obliterate a satellite orbiting the fourth major celestial body from your star as we entered your system. Why did you do it?"

"Looked awesome, didn't it?"

Then the aliens go home.

>> No.9671226
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>> No.9671233

>>9671213
as the aliens are leaving
"HEY WAIT GUYS! we got it on video, you want a copy?"
and the aliens leave while pushing their engines to the limit.

>> No.9671237

>>9671213
then we fire our supercannon at them

suddenly, humanity fuck yeah

>> No.9671241

So, do coilguns have recoil?

>>9670263
Generally speaking, "the US military is interested in this technology" doesn't say anything about how practical it is. US military command expresses interest (and often allocates funding) to EVERYTHING they think might make their men tougher or more killy, but it's simply not their job to know whether or not something can work. Such problems are left to R&D.

>> No.9671243
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>> No.9671248

>>9671212
Depends on the projectile used, the speed it's at etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deimos_(moon)

The kind of RKV those Halofags were talking about would turn either of them to dust and possibly also crack Mars down the middle.

>> No.9671256
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>> No.9671263

Holy shit, goddammit, YES IT HAS RECOIL.

Anything has recoil. Throwing a baseball has recoil. A flashlight has recoil!

But just because it has recoil doesn't mean you can't properly mount it.

>> No.9671265

>>9671212
>>3000-ton ferric-tungsten round at nearly 50% the speed of light

this is relativistic velocity, FYI, that means things like going 1% faster is 10% more energy, 2% faster is 25%, 3% is 100%, etc...a moon might be too small.

>> No.9671270

>>9671189
That would have been true
...........
............
.............
If not the railguns had bigger projectiles fired a lot faster.
The real question would be how this would scale upwards(read: i have a little lack on physics and how they work beyond the basics)

>> No.9671273

>>9671241
They both have recoil. In fact if the bullet is the same weight, and it's leaving the gun at the same speed the recoil will be the same.

>> No.9671278

>>9671241
If an object goes in one direction. Kinetic energy will be produced in the opposite direction.

This is an immutable law.

Stop asking.

>> No.9671283

>>9671241
DARPA are currently working on weather machines. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/21/darpa_lightning_on_tap/

>> No.9671295
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9671295

>>9671263
A better question: noticeable recoil?

>> No.9671300

>>9671263
Recoilless guns don't :3

>> No.9671307

>>9671189

Except you still have to worry about heating issues with the currents used to power the electromagnets, coupled with far more sensitive electronics that are necessary to ensure the perfect timing of the sequence of coils. And you need to deal with air friction anyway, unless you're firing in a vacuum. In which case you're probably engaging from millions of miles away and kinetic kill missiles become more viable anyway.

All in all, railguns (sans frictionless materials and supercooling) are easier to mass-produce, and can pack a bigger punch.

>> No.9671314
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>> No.9671318

>>9671278
>>9671273
>If an object goes in one direction. Kinetic energy will be produced in the opposite direction.
Duh. Hence why that is not the question.

>> No.9671320

>>9671307
>sans frictionless materials and supercooling
Which is a pretty fucking big "sans".

>> No.9671322

>>9671265
sooooo no body is using mercury right now right?
can we use that as a test fire target?

>> No.9671323

>>9671270
Wait what the hell are you talking about. Of course you can use large projectiles with gaus guns.
If anything gausguns can scale better then railguns. Remember you don't have to replace huge expensive firing mechanism with gausguns as you do with railguns after 10-20 shots.

>> No.9671324

>>9671241
Actually, that'd be DARPA. Check out their website, the entire purpose of that organization existing is to fund "High risk, high reward" research ventures. The logic is that the projects funded may not necessarily all pay off, but if even one does, the pay off is enormous.

>> No.9671331

>>9671118
Yes, many civilized countries teach their children basic Physics around sixth grade, AKA:ages nine to eleven. Hell, I'm from Louisiana, USA, widely considered one of the worst states in education in the country, and I covered this stuff when I was ten. What nation are you from?

>>9670876
there's no such thing as 'frictionless materials'. That's getting into super-SCIENCE!

>> No.9671341
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>> No.9671347

Recoilless guns do have recoil, they just don't transfer most of it into the person holding the tube. But as the military saying goes "Recoilless guns aren't."

And yes it would have noticable recoil. Get eraser out of your heads, the magnets get shoved back with equal force to the amount they're shoving forwards. Meaning that it's essentially like being HIT with the projectile you're firing, which is why cannons (all cannons) either have good bracing or good recoil reduction equipment. Or, in this case, fire small projectiles fast or big projectiles slow.

>> No.9671363

>>9671200
Based on a cursory reading of what articles popped up, the rule seems to say that if you have a magnetic field acting on an object, that object will jump away at a 90 degree angle to the field.

...So? I already knew that. It still doesn't explain why the projectile has to be TOUCHING the rails that fire it, which means it's going to fuck them up something awful JUST with the friction.

Terrible design. Voting for coilguns now.

>> No.9671365

>>9671324
As a DoD agency I forget that they're not actually military. And yeah, I'm a little familiar with them. Wrote a paper on that smart road challenge project in an AI class.

>> No.9671371
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9671371

>>9671341
What board is that from?

>> No.9671375

>>9671331
Texas.

>> No.9671385
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9671385

Here's what gets to me about spaceship threads.

See this? It's a chemical plant, which will likely have a greater resemblance to future spaceships than anything in this thread. There's no symmetry, no streamlining, no extraneous fins jutting out at random angles. Just function, honest and beautiful.

>> No.9671387

>>9671371
/sci/ I hope.
>>9671363
At this point I know you're a troll. 4/10 for getting me to play along.

>> No.9671389

>>9671324
look up the "stargate" project and then realise just how awsome the cold war was.

>> No.9671396

>>9671363
>It still doesn't explain why the projectile has to be TOUCHING the rails that fire it
Because with a railgun, the projectile is part of the circuit. It must therefore be in contact with the rails at all times.

>> No.9671408
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9671408

>>9671307
Part of your comment isn't allowed to be posted :(

>> No.9671410

>>9671396
yep, lorentz force specifically

>> No.9671413
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9671413

>>9671385
Yes, but that's hard scifi.
Fuck that noise.

>> No.9671414

>>9671363

To clarify: force is produced when a magnetic field AND an electric field (current) interact. For a current you need a complete circuit, for a complete circuit the projectile must be in contact with the bloody rails.

>> No.9671415

>>9671375
Ah. Makes perfect sense.

Not content with fucking up biology, christfags are now getting into physics; stars are the result of some "intelligent gleamer" and magnetic fields are actually saints' whispers.

>> No.9671417

>>9670564
The main source of funding for railgun research is the Navy, if I remember correctly. They also fund a lot of power plant research (Polywell comes to mind). The Navy is interested in both because big railguns would be perfect for long range precision artillery:
- range is only limited by the power plant of the vessel
- K-kill ammunition means no explosives
- no explosives means no risk of an ammo hold explosion
The rails deteriorate fast with each shot so an automatic loading system for both the projectiles and rails would not be unlikely.

>> No.9671421

All kinetic weapons have recoil. That whole "equal and opposite reaction" thing doesn't change in the name of awesome firearms, sadly.

Energy weapons like lasers and such generally wouldn't have recoil. Or muzzle flash. And they would not be visible to the human eye under most circumstances. They would be amazingly accurate for a practically infinite range in a vacuum, but they would become substantially less accurate under atmospheric conditions, worsened even more so by conditions like fog, rain, etc. When fog and rain appear it would be possible to see the laser reflected against the weather, instead of only its target.

>> No.9671422

>>9671323
Research into rails which last longer is ongoing. This shit doesn't happen overnight.

While supercooled and frictionless would be godly, that doesn't mean they're required. Machine guns overheat and their barrels wear out, but we use them anyway.

>> No.9671424

>>9671396
Yes, I get that. But WHY?

The magnetic field is all that's important. Couldn't you establish the circuit with something else and just have the projectile be inside it at the time?

>> No.9671426
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9671426

>>9671415
Fucking magnets, how do they work?

>> No.9671435

>>9671363

Because the projectile closes the circuit which generates the field. If something else closed that circuit, the projectile would just sit there. Setups where it doesn't are called gauss guns, and work on different principles entirely.

>> No.9671442
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>> No.9671444

>>9671424
Please don't respond to this faggot. You're only encouraging him.

>> No.9671454
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>> No.9671466
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>> No.9671469
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9671469

>>9671424
no, the magnetic field isn't all that's important.

>> No.9671473

>>9671371

/sci/

>> No.9671474
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>> No.9671477

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x1.html#hypervelocity

Some extra reading material here, covering both railguns and coilguns.

>> No.9671490

I believe my initial mistake is thinking that a gauss gun and a rail gun are the same thing with different-shaped drivers, and in fact railguns work on an entirely different principle.

That and my education was, I am now coming to understand, really really shitty.

>> No.9671491
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9671491

>>9671477
Thanks
>>9671469
In an image dump thread? Poor form, anon.

>> No.9671495

>>9671389
http://www.cracked.com/article_15983_10-most-bizarre-military-experiments.html

>> No.9671499

>>9671424
2/10 Troll or retard.
If it doesn't touch then it's called A GAUS GUN MORON

>> No.9671500

>>9671414
>To clarify: force is produced when a magnetic field AND an electric field (current) interact.
When you have a current, you have a magnetic field. I'm not sure what you mean by "electric field."

>> No.9671502
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>> No.9671504
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>> No.9671515
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>> No.9671522

>>9670690
9 * 10^14 J approximately, not counting relativistic effects, right?

>> No.9671526
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>> No.9671529

>>9671522
more like 3^24

>> No.9671531
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9671531

>>9671499
I'm obviously no expert, but isn't it spelt gauss?

>> No.9671535

Anyways. Supper cooled coil/gaus guns. :3
Hurray for fucking epic gaus fields and projectile velocities.

>> No.9671544

SI units confuse me. What is that in Rhode Islands, or Libraries of Congress?

>> No.9671551
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9671551

>> No.9671558

>>9671491
Do necrons HAVE to include a skull onto their ships?

>> No.9671562
File: 550 KB, 1280x1024, 1224344335536.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
9671562

>>9671531
Yes.

>> No.9671568

>>9671558
I think it's the law.

>> No.9671571

>>9671442
Oh dear god, when i finally get back in to EVE im going to rock the FUCK out of my old Tristan.

>> No.9671576
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>> No.9671588
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>> No.9671591
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>> No.9671592

>>9671531
Yes, named after mathematician C. F. Gauss

>>9671529
Let me check my math again.

3 * 10^6 kg
3 * 10^8 m/s
> forgot to divide by two

derp. Okay, so nine times ten to the fourteenth, over two, four and a half times ten to the fourteenth Joules. Still a shitload of energy. The recoil impulse of that gun should blast it backward right out of the hull.

>> No.9671593

/tg/ - Dem sciency stuff and SciFi

>> No.9671594

>>9671531
Yes, though gaus is a common misspelling. It's named for Carl Friedrich Gauss, German physicist, for whom a unit of magnetic field strength is named.

>> No.9671599
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>> No.9671609
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>> No.9671610
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>>9671593
As long as it's game related

>> No.9671619
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>> No.9671624

>>9671593
We should make a /tg/-related physics-tutoring website.

>> No.9671625

Railgun = fukken rails.
Coilgun = magnetic acceleration via coils.
Gauss gun = magnetic acceleration via strong magnets. Non-electric, neither railgun nor coildun.

>> No.9671628
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>> No.9671631
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>> No.9671632

Artificial gravity by centrifugal forces/rotating rings ftw

>> No.9671635

>>9671624
I think it's called /sci/.

>> No.9671636
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>> No.9671648
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>> No.9671649

>>9671625
Err...? I thought "Gauss gun" was a generic term for magnetic-propulsion weapons.

Like the Gauss gun in Battletech is either a coilgun or a railgun, because the ammo is inert but a hit to the gun itself causes the capacitors to fail catastrophically, resulting in an impressive explosion... inside your vehicle.

>> No.9671650
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>>9671632
I'm just in the genre for the nautical metaphors.

>> No.9671653
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>> No.9671658
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>> No.9671661

>>9671625
It's not so simple as you'd like it to be
the terms Coilgun and Gaussgun are interchangeable most of the time to both mean what you want to call caoilgun

>> No.9671671

>>9671650
"Are you of a nautical persuasion, Sergeant?"
"Nosir. Always been a fan of clean living, me."
"I mean, have you ploughed the ocean waves?"
"Haha, you can't get me there, sir. Everyone knows the horses would sink."
"I mean, have you ever floated around, on the waves, in a boat, at all?"

>> No.9671672
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>> No.9671673

>>9671625
>>9671649
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauss_gun
>Coilgun
>“Gauss gun” redirects here. For fictional weapons of this type, see electromagnetic projectile devices (fiction).

>> No.9671683
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>> No.9671684

>>9671649
err wrong. Gauss gun projectile doesn't touch the driver.
Railgun - projectile is part of the driver.

>> No.9671688
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>>9671671
I think that'd be nautical innuendo

>> No.9671693
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9671693

>Do railguns have recoil?

yes they do

>> No.9671695
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>> No.9671701
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>> No.9671714
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>> No.9671715

It effectively is at the moment, but is a gun not just a contraption full of senstive metallic parts ( in a fair amount of cases )?

At any rate, Railguns are just now getting off the ground, so who knows what will come around in the future?

>> No.9671721
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>>9671693
Bit of a slowpoke aren't we?

>> No.9671722
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>> No.9671730

>>9671715
I understand your view but it pains me to see them squander money on something that could be done better. Have them use that cash for coilguns instead

>> No.9671733

"Gauss gun" might be a layman's term for a coilgun, but that's simply false.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPciBQnZw3c

>> No.9671734

>>9671444
quite the opposite. If we don't educate him, nobody will. He'll never understand the basic components of electrical circuits, he'll never know how the world around him works, and he'll never understand future discussions about magnetic weaponry like this. It is the responsibility of all educated people to alleviate ignorance and educate others. I'm certain that if I had a business question, Alpharius would be more than happy to help me understand my ignorance as well.

>>9671375
That's odd. I was 10 in 1992, and it as a mandatory class here in Louisiana. "Physical Science", they called it.

>>9671415
You're thinking of Kansas. Texas isn't nearly as bad.

>> No.9671736
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>> No.9671739
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>>9671715
That's what I'm thinking. Handwaving away the whole massive failure angle.

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>> No.9671753
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>> No.9671754

So basically, design constraints for our rail gun-

A substance capable of magnetism for our rails, preferably one that also conducts heat well.

A strong structure to keep the rails from flying apart.

Ammunition, go with me here it might take a second for this to make sense- A coil or spool of metal designed to be accelerated, heat up, and change phase so that the resultant rail gun is actually more of a liquid metal or plasma cannon.

Amidoinitrite?

>> No.9671760
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>> No.9671765
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>> No.9671770

>>9671730

Well, considering the US military usually only declassifies shit when it's at least a year old, it's entirely possible that they're moving into coilguns now.

>> No.9671774
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>> No.9671777
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>> No.9671778

>>9671754
Swap rail with coil.
Also who sais you can't shoot plasma. ( hint: you can.)
Plasma fired at high speeds from a coil gun. All neat and tidy :3

>> No.9671784
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>> No.9671789
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>> No.9671796
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>> No.9671807
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>> No.9671811

>>9671778
I understand that plasma has a field, but my method allows the ammunition to be inert, and not require any stabilization when not being fired. In fact, the act of firing it creates the liquid metal/ plasma.

My concern is the heat at which the metal loses magnetism. It has to achieve a speed to cross that and turn in to plasma in order to accelerate more.

>> No.9671816

>>9671733
[citation needed]

All I'm seeing says that they're the same.

>> No.9671817
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>> No.9671818
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>> No.9671827

>>9671778
Except that you've got no way to maintain cohesion of the plasma you fired over long distances.

You've got a hard on for coil guns, that's obvious, but you're millimeters away from going full retard with it.

>> No.9671831
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>> No.9671840
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>> No.9671842
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...and that's it for me.

>> No.9671846

>>9671811
addendum: also, the heat created from the friction on the rails (as opposed to a coil gun where there is no contact) would allow the weapon to be fired IN SPACE

>> No.9671847
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>> No.9671856
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>> No.9671863

>>9671811
Wait what. Oh i give up.
Dude see. you can store your material in inert form then turn it into plasma and fire. Doesn't need to be metal either. Yes plasma is hotter then when metal looses magnetism but that doesn't matter because, hey plasma. Anyway. You can shoot uranium or any other fission material if you want with the idea it'd be radioactive and do some epic fissioning when it hits the target.

>> No.9671865
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>> No.9671881
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>> No.9671889

>>9671863
...

Wow.

Not one fucking clue, huh?

>> No.9671906

>>9671846
you are aware that heat in space is one of the biggest technical problems you can encounter.

space is very cold, but its also a vacuum, and therefore, does not conduct or convect heat. What gets hot stays hot, for a long long time.

>> No.9671909

UNRELATED TO THE THREAD, BUT RELATED TO /TG/ AS A WHOLE, THIS THREAD HAS MADE ME LOSE ALL HOPE IN HUMANITY. HUMANITY OH NO :C

>> No.9671918

>>9671863
Good luck extending the magnetic field beyond the barrel to keep the plasma from dissipating as it comes into contact with the air.

>> No.9671932
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>> No.9671942
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>> No.9671943

>>9671863
There's at least three fags in this conversation. I'm the railgun liquid metal fag.

My idea is taking advantage of the heat created by the friction on the rails. I don't see much point in creating plasma and then firing it when you can create the plasma as a byproduct of firing. Given the enormous amounts of energy required to make a substance change phase i think liquid metal is the best i could hope for.

>> No.9671952
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>> No.9671959

>>9671909
But why Yelling guy?

>> No.9671968

>>9671918
What air. It's fucking space. Also plasma creates it's own magnetic field that keeps it together. FUCK.
I'm beginning to feel like: >>9671909

>> No.9672018

>>9671968

No. In order to store the damn stuff without it cutting through your hull, you need to separate it into positive and negative charges. If you fire that out the barrel, the repulsion of the charges will result in rapid dispersal due to the repulsion of the same charges. Were you able to create a magnetic tunnel to the target, it would work, but we have no fucking idea how the hell to do that.

>> No.9672046

>>9672018
Can't you mix em just before firing?

>> No.9672066

>>9671213
>>9671233

That might be why no aliens have visited us still

Between the third and fourth planet, there's a belt of rocks, which can only be made from a planet, destroyed

The first and... third? gas giants have rings, made of debris, probably a moon shattered, which might be recent

Finally, we keep missiles at each other, and there might have been ice ages, and rocks aimed at our planet, indicating a fucking long history of war

a bit of misinterpretation, and aliens would think we've destroyed ourselves several times.

>> No.9672084

>>9672066
Either that or the prime directive.

>> No.9672127

>>9672046

Nope. Coilguns need a Ferromagnetic (permenant magnet) projectile, or a cloud of charged Ions (Plasma). For plasma, it would have to have the same charge or it wouldn't all get shoot down the barrel. So the only way to shoot both out would be with two separate coilguns firing at once, which would still result in a loss of efficiency.

TL;DR: Plasma is not a useful projectile for a coilgun until we can figure out how to project a magnetic bottle.

>> No.9672134

Also, we have hit autosage...

>> No.9672152

>>9672066
That'd be awesome if aliens looked at our system and thought we fucked it all up.

>> No.9672163

>>9672152
Not irl though.

>> No.9672167

>>9672066

fucking humans, those cokcroaches are hard to kill

we sent asteroids and comets to their planet in order to kill them
we changed their weather to kill them
we even tried to fuck up their sun in order to kill them
and they don't die, every time we try to kill them they adapt and get stronger

but we learned, oh yes we did, only a human can kill effectively their own kind, we hope they kill each other in an event called World War III

but I'm not sure if they will perish they never do

>> No.9672172

>>9671469
please don't drop unrelated images in an image dump thread. Those of us (pretty much everyone, these days) that use Flashgot or DTA to snag the images don't appreciate having to weed unrelated crap out of our folders because you wanted to use a reaction image.

>>9672084
Or they've watched our sci-fi flicks and decided not to kick the ant hill, deciding to wait until we've either exterminated ourselves or matured to something more advanced than monkeys who've replaced shit-flinging with hot-metal-flinging.

>> No.9672222

Whoever linked to the Polywell reactor, gracias.

>> No.9672364

>>9672066
yeah, or they just don't exist

Humans are the only intelligent life in the entirety of reality, and it's just a meaningless coincidence.

>> No.9672410

>>9670764
I think its implied that these weapons came too late.

and that eventually, if we had time we would have turned the tables in the battle against the covenant.

>> No.9672571

>>9670903
sirIsaacNewtonIsTheDeadliestSonofbitchInSpace

>> No.9672936

Fucking coilguns, how do they work?
Do they run on fucking magic?

>> No.9674983

>>9671649 a hit to the gun itself causes the capacitors to fail catastrophically, resulting in an impressive explosion... inside your vehicle.

It's not nearly as impressive an explosion as a moderately full LRM20/AC20 magazine.

>>
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