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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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[ERROR] No.9244033 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

I heard there was something horribly wrong with this little speech and I should come to /tg/ for an explanation

>> No.9244098

The world does not have ears. Talking to it is futile.

>> No.9244125

I thought america was founded on democracy, myself.

>> No.9244131

I like to consider that pic as this pic's opposite

>> No.9244162

>>9244131
That's because Captain America is fucking awesome.

>> No.9244172

For one, it says the nation must stand up for what it believes right, right after he says it doesn't matter what the country thinks...

>> No.9244184

He realized he was wrong. the country was built on acceptance of beliefs, even if you do not see eye to eye with those beliefs others have.

He stated this when he turned himself in.

>> No.9244193

>>9244131
That's, well, wow.

Holy shit, that's terrible.

>> No.9244202

>>9244131
>/a/ and /v/ overrun by edgy teenagers.jpg

>> No.9244208

>>9244033
I understand the fallacy in the pure wording of the statement, but the core message I can't find anything wrong with. If you have a belief, stand up for it. Has nothing to do with being a moralfag or immoral/antimoral/whateverfag.

>> No.9244214

>>9244131
Holy hell that is a lot of whining.

>> No.9244219

>>9244033
I'm curious as to why you were told /tg/ and not /co/

>> No.9244226

>>9244214
No kidding. Let me tl;dr it for my fellow fa/tg/uys:
BAWWWWW

>> No.9244229

>>9244214

Whining is what /a/ does best.

>> No.9244237

>>9244219
Because I was told by someone at /co/ about a shitstorm that happened over this image and I was wondering exactly what everyone was arguing about

>> No.9244249

>>9244125
Not pure democracy, America was founded with several safeguards to protect fundamental freedoms from democracy and to protect minority from the majority.

>> No.9244261

moralfags don't want to help or protect people at all. they just want to control people.

>> No.9244273

>>9244219
/co/, unfortunately, has a lot of amoralfags and trolls and Captain America's inclusion in a thread can sometimes turn it into a shitstorm of nationalistic idiocy and amoral wanking. This picture, in particular, has been used as trollbait a lot. /tg/ and /co/ have a fair amount of overlap in posters (we're bros with them, after all), and possibly the guy who advised OP thought we might be able to give him /co/ related advice without /co/ related trolls.

Or something. I dunno.

>> No.9244281

>>9244237
Well if it has anything to do with the /a/ thread screencap that was posted, it's the old argument that there are no morals because everything you do is to make yourself feel good in some way. This argument is made by whiners. WHINERS!

>> No.9244289

>"moralfag"
>"amoralfag"

is there anyone not under the age of 18 on 4chan left at all?

>> No.9244299

>>9244033

He's rejecting the entire premise of the rule of law, which just doesn't fucking work.

>> No.9244305

>>9244261
And immoralfags just want people to be free?

Your childish world view is trite.

>> No.9244308

Honestly, the 'issue' in civil war was pretty... strange. I was rooting for Tony the whole time, but I felt that Cap's side had some merit.

I'm willing to cut Marvel some slack though, since people had tended to avoid giving Cap too much of a personality before this (Brubaker excepted) and this was an attempt at doing so.

>> No.9244317

>>9244299
I dunno, it worked for us in the Revolution.

>> No.9244320

What I heard that this pic was taken from a comic Capn then proceeds to do something completely contrary to what he just said.

Do as I say not as I do, indeed.

>> No.9244323

>>9244299
The entire premise of the rule of law isn't "go with what the mob wants" you fucking asshole. You can have laws without having the tyranny of the majority.

>> No.9244325

>>9244273
>/co/, unfortunately, has a lot of amoralfags and trolls and Captain America's inclusion in a thread can sometimes turn it into a shitstorm of nationalistic idiocy and amoral wanking.

Then you have obviously never been to /co/

They have more moralfags or "ethicsfags" to be more precise than any other board

>> No.9244326

>>9244289
What's wrong with using a very commonly accepted term? Is saying faggot now proof of HURF UNDERAGEB&?

>> No.9244334

>>9244308
I was just rooting for whichever side Deadpool was on. As he is my moral compass.

>> No.9244335

>>9244308
Half the problem with the Civil War storyline was that the writers themselves got divided over the issue, so it got weird when they all tried to pitch their own sides.

Didn't help that it basically came down to the fact that Iron Man was supposed to be right, and that pissed a lot of people off who agreed with Cap.

>> No.9244338

>>9244326
those are not commonly accepted terms you post-habbo shitstain

>> No.9244354

>>9244335
Really? I found myself siding with Captain America more, because the founding principle of super hero secrecy was so that evil villains don't kill everyone you know.

>> No.9244361

>>9244338
Smells like troll in here

>> No.9244365

>>9244334
Deadpool's parts in Civil War were my favorite.

Just because it was such an interesting contrast with Cable. We really got to see how everyone in the universe saw Cable, because all he did was fuck up Deadpool's every chance at a job and some work for his own good, and expected him to accept this with a smile even though he'd basically ruined Deadpool's career.

>> No.9244378

>>9244354
It's considered the most likely reason why at the end of the story, Cap just goes and gives up instead of sticking to his guns.

>> No.9244385

>>9244338
Post-habbo? What the fuck is that, some retarded ass hipster lingo? Or is it your new favorite buzzword?

>> No.9244386

Basically, the biggest problem with this speech is that Cap is supposed to be the sort of metaphysical embodiment of America (it's a bizarre sort of metaphorical relationship), so most of his fans consider it out of character for him to tell America to take a flying fuck. Or at least that's how a buddy of mine who's a diehard Cap fan explained it to me.

>> No.9244393

>>9244334
I think he sat that one out.
>>9244335
There were pluses and minuses of registration. Tony didn't even do too bad of a job, other than pushing it too hard and too fast, because that's how he likes to do things. It's when Maria Hill told Cap to go arrest his friends before the bill even passed that got him totally against it. And then he just kept fighting his war and losing sight of what he was about.

And Mark Millar licks goats.

>> No.9244397

>>9244361
"moralfag" and any variation thereof are terms invented and propagated by a small number of tripfags shitting up /a/ and /v/ with not board-related threads, frequently under the guise of anonymous

the fact that you don't know this proves that you're new here

ask moot about jim profit

>> No.9244400

>>9244386
You can be a patriot without swallowing everything the government or even the populace feeds you.

>> No.9244408

>>9244385
lurk more

>> No.9244409

>>9244393
>Too hard and too fast, because that's how he likes to do things

Yeah.

>> No.9244412

>>9244334

Fuck yeah, Deadpool!

>> No.9244418

>>9244393
Deadpool was pro registration, not out of any sense of morals, but because they were paying him to hunt down unregistered heroes.

Cable destroyed his credibility so soundly that no one on the pro side would work with him anymore, and no one on the anti side trusted him in the least, so he really had no choice but to sit it out.

>> No.9244420

>>9244354
There was still superhero secrecy. Only the higher-ups in the government would have access to such privileged information.

I also sided with Cap in this, though. But it's not because of the secrecy thing, it's because of government regulation. Basically, it gave government the possibility to decide who could be a superhero and who couldn't. So, you do something they don't like, you're no longer fit to wear the tights. And we saw in Dark Reign just the kind of people that would have access to making such decisions.

>> No.9244422

>>9244317

In hindsight, yes, it did work well. But in hindsight, actions are judged by their consequences on history, which is an utterly useless standard for assessing the MORALITY of an act.

>> No.9244425

>>9244397
You are easily the most retarded person on 4chan.

>> No.9244429

>>9244033
"I believe that the black man is out to destroy the sanctity and superiority of the beautiful white race.
...no, YOU move."

>> No.9244433

>>9244385
He's referring to the old Habbo Hotel raids, Suit Nigra, Pool's Closed, etc. Some kind of elitist oldfag whining I guess.

>> No.9244437

>>9244386
And that's exactly what he's arguing against. He thinks to blindly listen to what others tell you America is instead of what you believe in yourself doesn't make you a patriot, it makes you gullible.

>> No.9244439

>>9244420
>There was still superhero secrecy. Only the higher-ups in the government would have access to such privileged information.

Spies cannot possibly exist. Politicians are always on the good side.

>> No.9244440

>>9244400

I don't disagree with you, that's entirely true. But, as I understand it, Cap is supposed to go beyond 'patriot' to 'nearly symbiotic relationship with the state of American affairs'.

>> No.9244443

>>9244429
Fine and Dandy.

The other side to this coin is that you've got to deal with the consequences of standing up for what you believe in.

>> No.9244448

>>9244439
Did you finish reading the post, friend?

>> No.9244450

>>9244418
I must find and read this now. LIBRARY DON'T FAIL ME NOW!

>> No.9244451

>>9244433
I don't really care. It's kind of ridiculous someone's getting upset because they don't think a term is commonly accepted.

>> No.9244452

>>9244308
>>since people had tended to avoid giving Cap too much of a personality before this (Brubaker excepted) and this was an attempt at doing so.

Wut?

Seriously. I just.. I have no words.

>> No.9244457

>>9244425
>defending jim profit and his lot

you have no right to call anyone retarded

recurring spammers are cancer, no one should acknowledge them by using their terminology

>> No.9244459

>>9244420
And Cable pretty well soundly knocked this one to the ground when he pointed out that super villains and rival governments can easily hack the system.

>> No.9244471

I'm starting to notice a trend of trying to troll /tg/ late at night. Use common sense people.

>> No.9244479

>>9244471
But where's the fun in that?

>> No.9244481

>>9244443
Why should you be prevented from exercising your freedom in a manner that doesn't inhibit the freedoms of others?

>> No.9244483

>>9244131
Wow, that is pathetic.

>> No.9244485

>>9244457
I'm not defending anyone. Go on ANY board, start a thread on the subject of "ethics" if you want to call it that, and nine out of ten times, someone will say "moralfag". That is what I mean by common.

>> No.9244500

>>9244481
You wouldn't be prevented.

You would, however, most likely be a social outcast. And if you're a little too forward in sharing your beliefs, you might get attacked or killed, because even if you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

>> No.9244504

>>9244485
offtopic spammers are cancer

people acting like them are cancer too

"moralfag" is the signature of that particular cancer, people who use it imitate its behavior and become like it

>> No.9244521

>>9244500
Ah, social repercussions I'm cool with. If you say that you should be allowed to fuck kids (as long as you aren't actually fucking kids) people should be free to call you a freak and shun you. The last part I'm not so cool with. Everyone should be free to do what they will without fear of oppression by force.

>> No.9244526

>>9244450
It's part of the Cable and Deadpool series, the set of books that ran around the time of the Civil War.

The whole series is good, especially since it's not so much a team up, but two guys who hate each others guts being forced to work together and attempting to betray each other whenever they get the chance.

>> No.9244537

>>9244521
Everyone should also be free to walk down the deepest, darkest streets without fear of being mugged as well.

Doesn't mean that what should be true is what is true.

>> No.9244538

>>9244485
Personally I use "moralfag" as a pejorative term for people who think they have morals but are in reality just supremely fucked up and oppressive, such as soccer moms and censors.

>> No.9244541

>>9244443
People like that don't seem to have much problem there, unfortunately. Even if the rest of the population wouldn't mind seeing them nailed to one of those flaming things.

>> No.9244557

>>9244541
They mostly don't have problems because they prevent anyone from finding out who they actually are.

The fact that they have to hide when sharing their beliefs just makes them cowards.

>> No.9244559

>>9244504
Saying a word is not acting like someone, or being something. Spamming is fucking annoying, though I've never seen someone spam the term, so how you associate the two I have no idea.

>> No.9244563

>>9244538
You're in the minority. Whenever I see people use that term it's in a /b/ thread outside of /b/ and frequently from tripfags with avatars who talk like they're about 15.

>> No.9244568

>>9244537
Indeed they should, but as long as the means to defend yourself are available to the populace and the law is upheld to the best of the government's ability with the intention of keeping the populace free (keeping them safe is part of that), then all is well, ideally.

>> No.9244585

>>9244559
every time I see the term in a thread it is derailed by the described cancer shortly after

usage of that term is a reliable idiot detector

>> No.9244606

>> No.9244609

>> No.9244614

>>9244559
You have never seen Jim Profit, Akagi and the like in action?

moot even made a sticky here when he banned Jim Profit.

>> No.9244627

>>9244538

You're choosing to use very limp-wristed language, then. Because that word can and does serve as a petulant pejorative term for any person making any sort of moral assertion.

>> No.9244632

>>9244606
His regime is a pretty good example of the mob saying something wrong is right.

>> No.9244634

>>9244606
Godwins fucking law

>> No.9244639

>>9244606
Ah, reductio ad hitlerum, the modus operandi of a true intellectual!

>> No.9244662

Why are people arguing against the term moralfag? Its a widely sued term.

>> No.9244670

>>9244662
*used term

>> No.9244677

This thread should probably be about something else besides who is an under-aged /b/ regugee. May I suggest an awesome paladin thread?

After all, anyone criticizing Cap is probably one of those infamous DMs trying to make a paladin fall.

>> No.9244679

>>9244609
Captain America just took a level in badass

>> No.9244680

>>9244662
I have never seen anyone use the term in a manner that doesn't indicate either trolling or underage. mainly because I don't visit /b/ anymore and I see way too many threads about that shit where they DO NOT BELONG.

>> No.9244688

>>9244606

>yourargumentisinvalid.jpg

Hitler was adored by the press and the mob alike.

>> No.9244695

>>9244632
obviously he is talking about modern Germany.

>> No.9244696

>>9244639
Well, see, no here it actually is making a point instead of saying that "You believe this, then you = Hitler". The point it's making is that Cap's No You Move speech is based around standing up for your beliefs. But as was mentioned with the whole white supremacist thing above, there are some people with very fucked up beliefs.

If the *exact* same speech was made by Hitler, it suddenly casts the whole concept in a very different light.

>> No.9244698

>>9244614
No, I know Akagi. Or, of. Whichever. Mostly went to just /m/ and /v/ up till a year ago, though, only recently starting coming here.
>>9244585
Well, jolly for you sir, but you're the one derailing shit because you're buttached about people finding out about your super-secret internet club.

>> No.9244714

>>9244698
Fucking...*started

>> No.9244719

I'm astounded that people are calling others post habbo newfags and being elitist, while thinking moralfag is a term used in offtopic /b/ threads.

It's always being used on /a/ and /tg/ - I rarely use any of the other boards and see the term on a daily basis multiple times, and not by spammers...

lurk more.

I'm not defending it's use, but claiming it's some sort of 'new' phrase thought up by /b/ is just being either ignorant or a troll.

>> No.9244729

>>9244696
Well of course how a speech is viewed is different when coming from the bastion of democracy and freedom vs the modern face of evil (Given that I'm exaggerating for the point).

>> No.9244736

>>9244698
I am angry that these people are actively working towards destroying non-/b/ boards

BY PURE COINCIDENCE shit like that just did not exist before summer 06

>> No.9244754

>>9244719
of course it isn't new, these faggots have been shitting up /a/ and /v/ FOR YEARS

>> No.9244762

>>9244680
What the hell are you talking about, I use the term because that's what everybody else was using and it is an apt term seeing as we are all fags of some description.

>> No.9244767

>>9244696
Let them have their goddamn beliefs then, step on them when they try to oppress others.

>> No.9244776

>>9244754
>>9244736
You go to /a/? The guy up there that said all /a/ does is whine was surprisingly accurate...

>> No.9244797

>>9244762
>I am innocent, therefore you are wrong

you are defending cancer without even realizing it

>> No.9244815

>>9244400
thank you. about god damn time someone said that

>> No.9244820

>>9244767
>let them have their belief that contains oppressing others as a central point

spoiler: people with a belief like that are usually trying to exercise it

>> No.9244825

>>9244797
Look I don't have a clue what your problem is, drop it.

>>9244776
I got insulted there for not being an American which I found ironic.

>> No.9244827

>>9244776
>look how witty I am

the problem still exists

>> No.9244830

>>9244754
And you er, don't think that other people might have started using the term?

The people who use it when contributing to D&D alignment threads etc are from /b/?

Seriously, I'm usually an elitist bastard but this level of ignorance is something entirely new.

>> No.9244843

>>9244729
Well, right, exactly. That's just it. If the question is "What is wrong with the speech", then the answer ends up being "the only merit it has is that it's being said by Captain America". So either the speech is flawed, or without inherent merit.

If the exact same words were being said by Red Skull, it'd be horrifying rather than uplifting.

>> No.9244845

>>9244827
I wasn't being witty, all you're doing is whining about things you can't change.

>> No.9244859

>>9244830
yeah, people imitating the cancer have adopted it

you wouldn't let furries implant their terminology into this board, why do you appear to accept spammers?

>> No.9244860

>>9244825
Yeah, /a/ doesn't make too much sense a lot of the time.

>> No.9244866

>>9244820
Not always. I've seen plenty of white supremacists that are quite content to just hate people with a different skin colour. We can't go around preventing people from oppressing others unless there is actually a clear threat of oppression, otherwise we simply become oppressors ourselves. Just saying that niggers should know their place is not the same as going out and beating black people.

>> No.9244869

>>9244859
>No one ever says YIFF YIFF in mockery

>> No.9244887

>>9244859
You are an idiot, the vast majority of people who use it are not trolls and are not 'imitating cancer' and most of us never visit /a/ or see what goes on there because the place sucks.

>> No.9244894

>>9244869
not the point

some people use "moralfag" seriously to describe anyone who isn't stereotypically evil

those are the cancer

those are attacking various popular boards

>> No.9244909

>>9244887
they are

they came in contact with it BECAUSE THE CANCER SPREADS

Jim Profit was a /tg/ problem too, remember?

>> No.9244918

How many millions of people have died because some asshole decided he was absolutely right and would move for no man?

>> No.9244928

>>9244918
How many people have died because people were content to let the majority have its way?

>> No.9244934

>>9244918
How many millions of people stood behind said man?

>> No.9244948

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

>> No.9244953

>>9244866
Yep, and therein lies the problem. There is *no* good answer . There isn't a way to force (and enforce) a morality onto people without it turning into "No, John, YOU are the demons".

Shit's complicated, yo. There's a reason people study it.

>> No.9244997

>>9244948
Ah yes, the 'and fyi we're totally cool with y'all having your own violent revolution should the need arise' provisions.

I love that part of the document.

>> No.9245002

Better?

>> No.9245008

>>9244843
Of course. But then you also have to start looking at context, and the list for that goes on and on. The only real way to get a good measure of it is to just have it lay on a nondescript sheet of paper, reading it straight from there without any outside intrusions.

>> No.9245017

>>9244894
>>9244909
Your entire argument is "if someone stupid used this word, it means anyone to ever use it in the future is stupid by association".

>> No.9245050

>>9245017
I wonder if the guy bitching uses the word vandal / vandalism.

If so he's clearly cancer spreading lies and deceit that should hang himself.

>> No.9245051

>>9245002
Nicely done.
(also he kinda looks like Michael Ian Black there, never really noticed that before)

>> No.9245065

The founding fathers were insane bloodthirsty radicals, ameirca would have been better off under the care and protection of the British Empire like Australia and Canada.

>> No.9245094

>>9245065
Insane is there purely to be pejorative, and bloodthirsty I'm not sure I entirely agree with. Granted the revolution was bloody, but that was largely in response to Britain saying "Oh, you won't just roll over and be our bitch? Fine, ARMY all up in this piece! Now what, motherfucker?!"

The founding fathers just responded with "Aiit. It's on, nigga."

>> No.9245109

the united states is a republic, not a democracy

>> No.9245115

I never got the entire "you can belive what you like' thing. What about nastier stuff, like slavery?

It seems a bit off to be allowed to BELIVE in anything if you can't actually practise it. Like a cardboard cutout rather than the actual thing. It's a mockery.

>> No.9245124

>>9245094
lol, more like "We want you to pay taxes to cover the cost of goverment sevices in the colonies. You're contantly starting shit with the natives and ignoring the treaties we signed; so now you're demanding more soldiers to protect you. Soldiers are not free."

"OMG, you fascists! The fact that we don't vote in british elections means we should get a free ride!"

>> No.9245127

>>9245109
It's a republic when the republicans are in power and a democracy when the democrats are in power.

>> No.9245131

>>9245124

Hey hey hey. Don't get between a Yank and his legends. They're likely to get stroppy.

>> No.9245145

>>9245115

Thinking that a thing is okay isn't the same thing as actually doing it.

Furthermore, most beliefs aren't of an "X is okay" nature, so much as an "X is true" nature. Take "whites are superior to blacks", for instance- there is no behavior associated with such a belief, other than the advocation of the belief itself.

Furthermore, many people possess sincere but conflicting beliefs (for instance, "I hate warmongers" combined with "I love my country").

>> No.9245158

>>9245127
it's not really a republic or democracy at this point. for the last half century or so it's just been "let government do whatever the hell it wants to" bush being a prime example of this with his liberal use of executive powers that don't even really exist

republic protects the minority and limits government. democracy is just whatever the majority or who is elected to power do what they want.

we were founded as a constitutional republic but nobody really seems to care anymore

>> No.9245167

>>9245115
That's semi-logical but the fact of the matter is that a single person can't live out all the political opinions that he has if that was the case then every tea partyer would live a log cabin far away from everyone else on top of a gold mountain with nukes inside.

>> No.9245188

>>9245131
Bunch of revolting colonials...

>> No.9245202

>>9245158
>implying the constitution isn't outdated

>> No.9245224

>>9245094
>>9245124

...And here we come to the reason why you can only decide whether political decisions were good or bad in the sense of whether they were successful, not whether or not they were moral. The motives for a whole group of people will be mixed and spun to the point where the truth is indiscernible, and the fact that group X succeeding or failing had apparent consequences Y and Z which may or may not have been realistically foreseeable just further confuses shit.

>> No.9245240

>>9244400
Fucking truth. People seem to mix up patriotism and nationalism a whole lot these days. I fucking love this country, but I don't blindly accept everything is right the way it is.

>> No.9245254

The immoralfag and amoralfag are simply too cowardly to fight for mankind.

>>9244521
>Everyone should be free to do what they will without fear of oppression by force.

To say what they will, maybe. If you start trying to lynch blacks and homosexuals, you'd better damned well be prepared to be oppressed.

>> No.9245261

>>9244418
Nah, he played up the bit about paid superhero catching, etc.but he did believe in his side some. But he wasn't going to turn down a badge as well as that.

>>9244526
Attempting? Deadpool betrayed cable fairly well, just was manipulated into cable's JUST AS PLANNED moments.

>>9244634
Don't work on 4chan.

>>9244639
Actually, it's a fair point here. That *IS* what is wrong with the image, he's talking about standing up for what you believe in, but not taking in to account that people believe in some fairly fucked up shit.

>> No.9245263

>>9245145
Those are not conflicting beliefs. Try again, and this time, try not to say something stupid.

>> No.9245288

>>9245158

Nobody cares any more because the system was designed to operate at a much smaller level of complexity and at a much slower rate.

The President holds an obscene level of power because the people WANT him to have an obscene level of power because they don't want to put everything through the intentionally change-retardant system laid out by the constitution. And frankly, they have a point, because everything else in the world has gotten faster while the legislative process has not.

At this point, there is not a single person in the history of mankind who is actually qualified to take on the responsibilities of the president of the USA.

>> No.9245290

>>9244521
>Everyone should be free to do what they will without fear of oppression by force.
I will oppress whoever the fuck I like.

>> No.9245428

patriots wear a flag pin, nationalists shoot people, learn the difference.

>> No.9245454

>>9244997

The funniest part is Southerners baaaawing about how they should have let them secede because of it.

Yeah, faggot, because a democratically-elected abolitionist President is such an ENEMY OF FREEDOM.

>> No.9245508

>>9245454
but democratically leaving the union is bad.

>> No.9245534

>>9245261

I absolutely hate Cable. He's some ultra-powerful mercenary STRONGER THAN EVERYBODY, who loves guns, who is A PERFECT SHINING HERO WHO BRINGS PEACE TO ALL, is a complete fucking dick and never called on it, and worst of all OH LOL JUST AS PLANNED I AM SO MANIPULATIVE.

Cable is a cunt, hope they kill him off for good.

>> No.9245560

>>9245224
what are you talking about? How can you say that the revolution being "sucessful" is good or bad easily? Are americans of today better off because of it? Were the children of the revolutionaries better off for it?

It's entirely possible that if the states had never rebeled you could have ended slavery without 1,030,000 war deaths (3% of the population at the time). England and France's hostility to slavery was a deciding factor in keeping them from direct intervention in the war, if the south at the time had been a part of a larger british empire political pressure and the far larger nature of the anti-slavery part of the empire could well have ended that conflict before it began. It may have even ended slavery sooner.

>> No.9245562

>>9245508

Yep, treason is bad. Fuck, I wish I still had the letters between William T. Sherman and the Confederate General Hood, about Sherman forcing Atlanta to evacuate. Hood basically BAAAAAWs about how unfair it is to invade Atlanta at all and throw people out, and Sherman goes "then don't commit treason, fuck you, I'm even offering to escort them to another town."

And then Hood goes "LOL GOD WILL PUNISH YOU." Shit is so butthurt.

>> No.9245583

>>9245562
Oh lol that sounds hilarious

>> No.9245598

Rance is too much of a moralfag for me to enjoy playing Sengoku Rance anymore. What the fuck, Japan?

>> No.9245629

>>9245583

FOUND IT. It's TL:DR in parts, but Sherman basically goes "u mad, traitor?" to Hood.

>> No.9245632

Shitty comic writing isn't the forte of /tg/, despite all the Goblins threads you see here.

>> No.9245646

>>9245562
An excellent post during Union Victory Appreciation Month!

>> No.9245649

Maj. Gen. W. T. SHERMAN.
Commanding U.S. Forces in Georgia:

GENERAL: Your letter of yesterday's date [7th] borne by James M. Ball and James R. Crew, citizens of Atlanta, is received. You say therein "I deem it to be to the interest of the United States that the citizens now residing in Atlanta should remove," &c. I do not consider that I have any alternative in this matter. I therefore accept your proposition to declare a truce of two days, or such time as may be necessary to accomplish the purpose mentioned, and shall render all assistance in my power to expedite the transportation of citizens in this direction. I suggest that a staff officer be appointed by you to superintend the removal from the city to Rough and Ready, while I appoint a like officer to control their removal farther south; that a guard of 100 men be sent by either party, as you propose, to maintain order at that place, and that the removal begin on Monday next. And now, sir, permit me to say that the unprecedented measure you propose transcends, in studied and ingenious cruelty, all acts ever before brought to my attention in the dark history of war. In the name of God and humanity I protest, believing that you will find that you are expelling from their homes and firesides the wives and children of a brave people.

I am, general, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. B. HOOD,
General.

>> No.9245655

>>9245629

Oops, forgot my link. http://www.civilwarhome.com/atlantaevacuation.htm

>> No.9245660

>>9245560
I find the English stance on slavery exceedingly hypocritical at the time period, since most of America's slaves were bought from France and England. they didn't like that we were making money from the labour.

>> No.9245666

>>9245562
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.

>> No.9245669

>>9245649
HDQRS. MILITARY DIVISION OF THE MISSISSIPPI,
In the Field, Atlanta, Ga., September 10, 1864.

General J. B. HOOD, C. S. Army, Comdg. Army of Tennessee:

GENERAL: I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of this date [9th], at the hands of Messrs. Ball and Crew, consenting to the arrangements I had proposed to facilitate the removal south of the people of Atlanta who prefer to go in that direction. I inclose you a copy of my orders, which will, I am satisfied, accomplish my purpose perfectly. You style the measure proposed "unprecedented," and appeal to the dark history of war for a parallel as an act of "studied and ingenious cruelty." It is not unprecedented, for General Johnston himself, very wisely and properly, removed the families all the way from Dalton down, and I see no reason why Atlanta should be excepted. Nor is it necessary to appeal to the dark history of war when recent and modern examples are so handy. You, yourself, burned dwelling-houses along your parapet, and I have seen to-day fifty houses that you have rendered uninhabitable because they stood in the

>> No.9245684

>>9245669

way of your forts and men. You defended Atlanta on a line so close to town that every cannon shot and many musket shots from our line of investment that overshot their mark went into the habitations of women and children. General Hardee did the same at Jonesborough, and General Johnston did the same last summer at Jackson, Miss. I have not accused you of heartless cruelty, but merely instance these cases of very recent occurrence, and could go on and enumerate hundreds of others and challenge any fair man to judge which of us has the heart of pity for the families of a "brave people." I say that it is kindness to these families of Atlanta to remove them now at once from scenes that women and children should not be exposed to, and the "brave people" should scorn to commit their wives and children to the rude barbarians who thus, as you say, violate the laws of war, as illustrated in the pages of its dark history. In the name of common sense I ask you not to appeal to a just God in such a sacrilegious manner; you who, in the midst of peace and prosperity, have plunged a nation into war, dark and cruel war; who dared and badgered us to battle, insulted our flag, seized our arsenals and forts that were left in the honorable custody of peaceful ordnance sergeants; seized and made "prisoners of war" the very garrisons sent to protect your people against negroes and Indians long before any overt act was committed by the, to you, hated Lincoln Government; tried to force Kentucky and Missouri into rebellion, spite of

>> No.9245689

>>9245684

themselves; falsified the vote of Louisiana, turned loose your privateers to plunder unarmed ships; expelled Union families by the thousands; burned their houses and declared by an act of your Congress the confiscation of all debts due Northern men for goods had and received. Talk thus to the marines, but not to me, who have seen these things, and who will this day make as much sacrifice for the peace and honor of the South as the best born Southerner among you. If we must be enemies, let us be men and fight it out, as we propose to do, and not deal in such hypocritical appeals to God and humanity. God will judge us in due time, and He will pronounce whether it be more humane to fight with a town full of women, and the families of "a brave people" at our back, or to remove them in time to places of safety among their own friends and people.

W. T. SHERMAN,
Major-general, Commanding.

TL:DR "Sherman was here, fuck your shit."

>> No.9245696

>>9245660
You gotta seperate what the government were doing from popular opinion. The governments would have LOVED to side with the confederates, if they weren't afraid of the political damage.

>> No.9245719

So, Sherman was basically a gigantic troll?

>> No.9245733

>>9245689

I'm loving these, sherman just owned a bitch.

>> No.9245734

>>9245719
Mention Sherman in the South to most people and you'll see your answer.

>> No.9245738

>>9245689
>He will pronounce whether it be more humane to fight with a town full of women, and the families of "a brave people" at our back, or to remove them in time to places of safety among their own friends and people.

Hilarity

>> No.9245741

>>9245562
>treason
States voting to remove themselves from a federation and form a new one is not treason.

>> No.9245752

>>9245689

This shit is awesome.

I hate to be another guy using lmaorandom internet lingo to describe a historical figure. But I mean, seriously; these two warring generals are having a hand-written flamewar.

>> No.9245753

>> No.9245768

>>9245719
Nah, Sherman just used clear logic backed by facts to verbally puncture a pompous self righteous gasbag.

>> No.9245770

>>9245719

Sherman was a man who understood that a leader's job is to make the hard decisions.

>> No.9245776

>>9245741

Depends on the cause. Confederacyfags were baaawing about slavery.

>> No.9245779

>>9245741
Oh? Then how would you define it?

>> No.9245781

>>9245741
Yes it is. Its illegal to remove yourself from the union once you enter. Breaking this union is treason as you seek to weaken and damage the country as a whole

>> No.9245784

>>9245741

Except that it would have crippled both of them and made them vulnerable to attack by foreign powers. What did Britain lose by America leaving? Nothing, Britain was still a huge, fuckoff empire.

>> No.9245793

>>9245734

Trolling the South is not a crime, but rather worthy of distinction.

>> No.9245798

>>9245741
let me repeat myself:
>"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

Treason is a meaningless phrase, it just means your side lost.

>> No.9245800

>>9245689
MOTHERFUCKING [email protected] #1 WOULD BUY AGAIN!

>> No.9245808

>>9245741

Uhm, no, that is the very definition of treason. The fact that they WANTED to leave doesn't make it any less treason, and it is fucking laughable that you would possibly think that.

What's next? "It isn't breach of contract because I decided I didn't like the contract anymore?"

>> No.9245809

It gets even better near the end, where Sherman basically gives up on reasoning with Hood and goes "next time don't be a traitor."

>> No.9245821

>>9245779
trying to take over the federal government, selling secrets to a foreign power, sabotaging your own country during a war, stuff like that.

>> No.9245833

This man bleeds badass.

>> No.9245842

Ohm... If I may interject here.

>> No.9245847

>>9245808
They didn't WANT to leave, They DID leave, the war happened after the Confederacy was a separate state.

>> No.9245848

>>9245833

The entire cast of the civil war was a veritable Valhalla of badassery.

>> No.9245850

http://www.schulterglatze.de/spenden/242628

>> No.9245854

>>9245821
>sabotaging your own country during a war

So if you sabotage your own country and there isn't a war thats all fine and dandy? Or if you sabotage your country and declare war a few weeks later is it still treason?

>> No.9245855

>>9245798
>>Treason is a meaningless phrase, it just means your side lost.

Nope. Our Founding Fathers who were not only wise and noble, but had a wide array of superpowers (Benjamin Franklin could piss lightning bolts and as a side-effect impregnate every woman in a ten mile radius) knew that treason was often tossed around as a bullshit term. So they defined it.

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason#United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason#United_States

>> No.9245863

>>9245808
If you win, you're a revolutionary, if you lose, you're merely a traitor.

If you win, you're a freedom fighter. If you lose, you're a terrorist.

If a winner isn't clearly decided, or if hostility lingers, then it depends who you ask.

>> No.9245872

>>9245847
>They didn't WANT to leave, They DID leave
If you want to make your own country by splitting one in two you sure as hell want to do it. It doesn't magically happen out of thin air

>> No.9245891

HDQRS. MILITARY DIVISION OF THE MISSISSIPPI,
In the Field, Atlanta, Ga., September 12, 1864.

JAMES M. CALHOUN, Mayor, E. E. RAWSON, and S. C. WELLS,
Representing City Council of Atlanta:

GENTLEMEN: I have your letter of the 11th, in the nature of a petition to revoke my orders removing all the inhabitants from Atlanta. I have read it carefully, and give full credit to your statements of the distress that will be occasioned by it, and yet shall not revoke my orders, simply because my orders are not designed to meet the humanities of the case, but to prepare for the future struggles in which millions of good people outside of Atlanta have a deep interest. We must have peace, not only at Atlanta but in all America. To secure this we must stop the war that now desolates our once happy and favored country. To stop war we must defeat the rebel armies that are arrayed against the laws and Constitution, which all must respect and obey. To defeat these armies we must prepare the way to reach them in their recesses provided with the arms and instruments which enable us to accomplish our purpose. Now, I know the vindictive nature of our enemy, and that we may have many years of military operations from this quarter, and therefore deem it wise and prudent to prepare in time. The use of Atlanta for warlike purposes is inconsistent with its character as a home for families. There will be no manufactures, commerce, or agriculture here for the maintenance of families, and sooner or later want will compel the inhabitants to go. Why not go now, when all the arrangements are completed for the transfer, instead of waiting till the plunging shot of contending armies will renew the scenes of the past month?

>> No.9245896

Of course, I do not apprehend any such thing at this moment, but you do not suppose this army will be here until the war is over. I cannot discuss this subject with you fairly, because I cannot impart to you what I propose to do, but I assert that my military plans make it necessary for the inhabitants to go away, and I can only renew my offer of services to make their exodus in any direction as easy and comfortable as possible. You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty and you cannot refine it, and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war. The United States does and must assert its authority wherever it once had power. If it relaxes one bit to pressure it is gone, and I know that such is the national feeling. This feeling assumes various shapes, but always comes back to that of Union. Once admit the Union, once more acknowledge the authority of the National Government, and instead of devoting your houses and streets and roads to the dread uses of war, and this army become at once your protectors and supporters, shielding you from danger, let it come from what quarter it may. I know that a few individuals cannot resist a torrent of error

>> No.9245901

and passion such as swept the South into rebellion, but you can part out so that we may know those who desire a government and those who insist on war and its desolation. You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home is to stop the war, which can alone be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride.
We don't want your negroes or your horses or your houses or your lands or anything you have, but we do want, and will have, a just obedience to the laws of the United States. That we will have, and if it involves the destruction of your improvements we cannot help it. You have heretofore read public sentiment in your newspapers that live by falsehood and excitement, and the quicker you seek for truth in other quarters the better for you. I repeat then that by the original compact of government the United States had certain rights in Georgia, which have never been relinquished and never will be; that the South began war by seizing forts, arsenals, mints, custom-houses, &c., long before Mr. Lincoln was installed and before the South had one jot or tittle of

>> No.9245907

>>9245872
Agreed. Putting aside that the Constitution has no procedure for leaving the Union, the Confederacy didn't even issue a stirring Declaration of Independence. Just a bunch of secession papers where they whined about slavery being awesome. And that wasn't even illegal at the time.

>> No.9245910

provocation. I myself have seen in Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Mississippi hundreds and thousands of women and children fleeing from your armies and desperadoes, hungry and with bleeding feet. In Memphis, Vicksburg, and Mississippi we fed thousands upon thousands of the families of rebel soldiers left on our hands and whom we could not see starve. Now that war comes home to you, you feel very different. You deprecate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent car-loads of soldiers and ammunition and molded shells and shot to carry war into Kentucky and Tennessee, and desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at their old homes and under the Government of their inheritance. But these comparisons are idle. I want peace, and believe it can now only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect an early success. But, my dear sirs, when that peace does come, you may call on me for anything. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter. Now you must go, and take with you the old and feeble, feed and nurse them and build for them in more quiet places proper habitations to shield them against the weather until the mad passions of men cool down and allow the Union and peace once more to settle over your old homes at Atlanta.

Yours, in haste,
W. T. SHERMAN,
Major-General, Commanding.

>> No.9245915

>>9245854
>Or if you sabotage your country and declare war a few weeks later is it still treason?
I don't understand how leaving is sabotage, declaring war on a separate country is not treason.

>> No.9245936

>>9245872
the borders separating most countries are just imaginary lines on a map.

>> No.9245942

>>9245915

Leaving it IS sabotage.

Also, holy shit, if we'd had more SHERMAN in school I'd have paid attention during history.

>> No.9245966

>>9245896
>War is cruelty and you cannot refine it, and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.

Fuck yeeeessssss

>> No.9245968

>>9245942
Then emigrants are traitors.

>> No.9245984

>>9245915
Your arm rips itself off and leaves a note saying its better off without you

It just fucked you over and you want it back.

>> No.9245991

>>9245896
>>War is cruelty and you cannot refine it, and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.

QFT.

>> No.9246007

>>9245968

Do they take all of our cotton production and most of our farms with them?

>> No.9246009

>War is cruelty and you cannot refine it, and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.

Slightly beating a dead horse at this point, but FUCKING THIS.

Every war we have lost in the last century has been the result of people losing sight of this fact.

>> No.9246011

>>9245936

They're real lines on a map.

Alternatively, they're imaginary lines on the ground.

>> No.9246019

>>9246009

If Sherman was alive today, we would rule the entire Middle East, be making money off of it instead of losing, and everyone would love us for it.

>> No.9246034

Shame all Sherman gets is a crappy tank named after him

>> No.9246048

>>9246007
The states and the people in them owned that land, not the federal government.

>> No.9246059

>>9246019

Sherman for spiritual liege!

>> No.9246063

>>9246034

Honestly, he would probably prefer it that way.

The guy was a firm believer in "doing what you had to do", but he HATED what he had to do.

>> No.9246081

>>9246011
if the things on a map are real examples of imaginary things then it's not a very good map.

>> No.9246102

>>9246063
Those are my characters to read about in books/comics/movies/whatever.

>> No.9246113

>>9246048

Haha, sure. Any moral high ground the South had vanishes because of slavery.

>> No.9246157

>>9246102

Same here.

Leaders are chosen to make decisions that the public cannot. If that were not their purpose, we would not need leaders at all, because we could just leave everything up to the whims of the public and they would do the "right" thing by default.

>> No.9246181

>>9246048

You own it as long as you're part of us. If you emigrate, you can't take your land with you, because land is part of what defines a nation.

>> No.9246193

>>9246113
The federal government didn't own the land that's not moral high ground it's just a fact, in plural states where the government owns everything secession just isn't possible.

>> No.9246202

>>9246113

There is no moral high ground in war. Just questions of efficiency.

>> No.9246235

>>9246181
People define a nation, a nation can lack water, it can be covered in ice, it can be a bunch of islands out in the middle of buttfuck nowhere but as long as it has good people it will be a good nation, the reason antarctica or the moon is not a country is not for lack of land.

>> No.9246293

>>9246202

Case in point: Vlad Tepes, a king so utterly mad that his depravities became the basis for the most famous horror figure of all time.

This same man was Vlad Tepes, a king considered a hero in his own land because his horrific methods in war were the only thing that stopped the country from falling to the Ottomans.

>> No.9246297

>>9246235
Nation-State is how we define countries nowadays, your semantics bullshit is petty.

Please move on

>> No.9246391

>>9245689
>God will judge us in due time, and He will pronounce whether it be more humane to fight with a town full of women, and the families of "a brave people" at our back, or to remove them in time to places of safety among their own friends and people.

FUCK YEAH, SHERMAN
YOU ARE THE BEST MAJOR-GENERAL EVER
CALL THAT BITCH OUT ON HIS COLLATERAL DAMAGE

>> No.9246498

>>9246297
let me put it another way, mexicans that cross the imaginary border into america are not any smarter or better looking or anything then they were when they were in mexico, a sheet of paper saying that you citizen of suchandsuch country doesn't change who you are, small countries that have no resources can be rich if they have the right people, if every american changed into a Japanese person tomorrow would the country still be america? You say yes because it would still have the name of america and have the same land so it would be ameirca, but it would be in name only, it wouldn't be in practice, de facto, right?

>> No.9246639

>>9246498
What the fuck are you talking about with your insane hypotheticals and semantics? PROTIP: If you are making that kind of argument you aren't proving your point via exaggeration. You are just being an obtuse ass.

I love this thread so much, that if I was a Bizarro I'd go Sherman all over it!

>> No.9248965

Many people in the south never wanted to leave the Union in the first place. Many of these people were either forced from their homes or killed. Others formed regiments that joined the Union army. The Confederacy was created by rich plantation owners who were butthurt about not getting their way on everything. The war started when South Carolina opened fire on a Federal Fort.

tl;dr Texan/Virginian here, fuck the Confederacy

>> No.9248978

>>9246059
Now I want to make Imp Guard based on the Union army

ENTIRE CONFEDERACY IS CHAOS

>> No.9249478

>>9245598

What?

"Gahahahaha! Everything is mine!" Rance, Rance of a Thousand Rapings - that Rance?

I suppose he *does* push the pro-rape message pretty hard, to lots of women. I guess I see your point.

>>9246293

Example: impaling the entire scout force of the enemy army along the bank of a river at the border - this terrified the vastly superior force and they retreated.

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