/tg/ - Traditional Games

Gun

My money is on the one who uses hand canons as weapons.

Pirate

Knight, because of this.>>9157934
Because the "Knights" were backed by the portugese, which forced Japan to stop being isolationist faggots.

Dinosaurs and/or robots, duh.

Knight. good luck chopping through that armour there, champ.

>>9157966
Brotip: the japanese also used hand cannons and loved powder weapons.

I still say the knights win, mostly because even though Japan had a military genius that kicked ass when using powder weapons (Oda Nobunaga) he would probably ally with the Knights and help opening Japan to foreign affairs.

Fuck yes Oda.

My sons why do you fight? we must crush the xenos, the heretic and the daemon!

the samurai, who sends a prggo knight into battle anyway

I hate facepunch beyond... my own siblings.

http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=839748

>>9157966
Actually, it was all the foreign affairs that forced Japan into isolation lol

>>9158009
He was a genius with firearms compared to other Japanese generals only. And even then it was only because he actually fucking used the firearms everyone else was on a retard honor-bent over.

>>9158066
No it was just a fat fuck(Tokugawa) that freaked out when Hideyoshi took the land to himself and then went completely insane.

Fucker pretty much made Japan the xenophobic shithole that is today.

Lol @ knights vs. Samurai turning into a pike and musket discussion.

>>9158083
Funny thing is, alot of the gun formations used in the American Civil War were devised by Oda himself

Not making that up

>>9157922
Batman

>>9158083
While it's true that he did face some oponents with retarded tactics (and proceed to utterly crush them) keep in mind his clan sucked ass agains't pretty much everyone, but his connections with the portuguese + his military genius made his shitty clan into the main force of the land. A "okay" general wouldn't be able to do this shit.

Also, he pretty much used the rapid fire with muskets before Europe. Speak fluently japanese, had all his family be chirstians, the man was a westaboo.

>>9157922
Could you at least give a situation? Are we talking about about an army of medieval Europeans vs feudal Japanese of equal numbers? Unequal numbers? Maybe a one on one duel? With or without horses? With or without equipment? Terrain? Naked, with only the training common to their time? Generalizations are silly.

>>9158153
>fluent PORTUGUESE

god damn it

>>9158118
Forgive my lackluster grasp of rifle tactics between 1600 and 1900, but weren't those formations essentially "a line" "two lines" and "two lines angled slightly"?

>>9158105
Tokugawa was shorted sighted, yes, but he closed off Japan to avoid all the bad shit that was fucking everything up.

And even, they still had one little ship that gave imports.

>>9158174
And for that matter, weren't those gun lines devised long before Japan got weapons? I seem to remember infantry lining up to face each other, and the angle of the infantry lines being a choice of import.

Alpharius wins.

>>9157922
>who wins /tg/?
<wins /tg/...

A fully armored knight as seen in the picture would destroy a samurai. First of all he would have a major size difference on the samurai, his armor is steel and light enough to do cartwheels in (Henry VIII did this), and their training would have been equivalent to or better than a samurai. Knight almost every time.

>>9158180
>And even, they still had one little ship that gave imports

oh god . . . SHOGUN CAMPAIGN

this time, we're heading to europe

>>9158153
Connection with Portugal during the like....50 years ever that they were noteworthy. Lucky him.

>>9158233
don't forget better quality swords, weaboos love to talk about katana, but thats nonsese

>>9158174
>>9158219
He devised a way for rapid fire and melee denial using a specific kind of trench that could stop cavalry charges. I am not sure if these were used in the american civil war.

>>9158233
Some knights would be less trained, as far as martial arts go the east and west are about even. However, the samurai would have like, no fucking experience dealing with someone coated in gothic plate, and would get fucked sideways because of this.

The knight because samurai are weeaboo

>>9158358
ACW was mostly fought with Napoleonic tactics. And although they were outdated even for that conflict, they are based on more advanced gunpowder weapons than were around in the 16th century. Infantry didn't have long muskets with bayonets to fend off cavalry back then.

Knight

>>9158426
I guffawed.

>>9158426
The Samurai sucked major dick on Age of Empires 2 and didn't represent the archetypal Samurai at all. (Google Honda Tadakatsu)
>>9158448
Katanas weren't made for hitting metal. Broadswords were made with the notion that you might see some armour on the battlefield and are sub optimal depending on how much armour your target is wearing.

So?

Katanas were often overforged. That's a bad thing, considering what happens when you stab/cut people.

Swords were made to bend, but not stay bent permanently. This is because when a sword goes into someone, the last thing they do is stay the fuck still. So swords need to bend. And everyone knows the most effective way to kill an armored man with a sword is to thrust, not cut.

Plus, Gothic plate is overrated, Italian White Plate up in this bitch. Fuck you.

>>9158505
Fuck yeah Italy!

No one gave a shit about them back then but when you needed crossbows, they were the guys you pay.

>>9157966


Uhhh...no...that was the Americans who did that.

>>9158409
samurai had no experience except with with other samurai

>>9158496
That's not just metal. That's a broadsword.

The follow up is this, where the broadsword breaks the other broadsword, and is still functional.

>>9158505
Katanas are curved because they are meant to be used from horseback.

>>9158525
>Crossbows
In before Crecy comic.

>>9158542


They also invaded korea and china.

>>9158543
>That's not just metal. That's a broadsword.

That is made of metal.

>>9158569
They flat out state the reason they did't get "lol I crossbow u" is because for some completely insane reason they didn't bring their shield with them on that very comic anon.

>>9158545
Katanas are fucking shit, Japan was in the dark ages until Europeans showed up.

Stop defending that country, last time I checked it was full of paedophiles, rapists and escapists. Their whole society runs on cheap vehicle manufacture and hentai pornography.

>>9158545
Bastard swords were longer because they were meant to be used from horseback. Katanas were curved, because they slashed with the weapon. Samurai didn't even use the Katana on horseback. They used spears and bows on horseback, like every other good horseman in light armor.

Plus, Knights had shields. If a Knight put his shield up, and simply thrust beside or over the shield, he could wear the Samurai out and basically deflect all the Samurai's blows, while the Samurai would need to actively dodge because his armor was piss poor.

>>9158545
really? Katanas are fairly short, it seems counter-intuitive to use anything like that from horseback.

See: Cavalry Sabre, one of the most badass weapons ever.

>>9158496
>So?
So they won't be able to easily bisect a knight. They're going to be standing there with their dicks in their hands while knights easily cut down their weeaboo asses.

>>9158609

No, the did use em from horseback. Especially in the earlier periods of Japan's history; pretty much all the warriors were light calvary who rode around either shooting arrows at each other or attempting to cut each other off their horses.

>>9158358
"Melee denial" was practiced by the English combined-arms forces during the Hundred Years' War with stakes and trenches, too. That's not an incredible innovation except from the viewpoint of Japan.

That said, a massed charge by knights in full plate would literally steamroll anything the Japanese could field, unless they spontaneously developed drilled pike formations (and even then...). In the thirteenth century there are repeated instances of 300-something Latin knights driving off forces of several thousand Greeks, and this was a couple centuries before full plate was in use.

I think all of you morons are forgetting that nobody used swords as their primary weapon to begin with.

>>9158691
In Japan's early history, before they got invaded by Mongols, they used straight swords. What's your point?

>>9158610
Sabers: All other swords are for fags.

>>9158711

There were also curved swords prior to that point, fyi.

I'VE SEEN THIS THREAD ONE TOO MANY TIMES

IF THERE IS A DRAWFAG IN THE AUDIENCE, PERHAPS JUST ONE SCROLLING PAST THIS THREAD EVEN, I CALL UPON YOUR MIGHTY TABLET

DRAW THE KNIGHT-SAMURAI OR THE SAMURAI-KNIGHT OR THE SAMIGHT OR THE KNIURAI. DON'T CARE.

FUSE THESE TWO BEINGS TOGETHER TO CREATE THE FINEST WARRIOR EVER DREAMED OF.

A MAN WHO CAN BOTH BISECT A LESSER WARRIOR AND YET NOT BE BISECTED HIMSELF.

A MAN WHO COULD CONQUER JAPAN AND DEFEND IT WITH EQUAL PROWESS, REGARDLESS OF THE ERA.

A MAN WHOSE VERY EXISTENCE WOULD CAUSE ALL PARTICIPANTS IN WORLD WAR 2 TO STOP FIGHTING AND TRY TO SHOOT HIM FIRST BECAUSE HIS POWER WOULD BE FEARED AND RESPECTED

>>9157922

OP, go read that, very informative then make your own guess.
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

vampires are better than both

>>9158534
You're thinking of the second time they were forced to stop being isolationist bastards. The Portuguese did it first.

>>9158219
Lolno. You don't understand that shot warfare in the 1600's was different. Oda didn't have access to all the fun technical manuals that Europe did but he still created the X's and O's, or the Maurcian style of musket warfare. Line X lines up infront of Line O. Line X fires. Steps back to reload. Line O steps forward, fires. Moves back to reload. Line X steps forward. Rinse repeat.

Devastatingly effective. Worked incredibly well against the Takeda and other Clans. He didn't learn that from the manuals that the Portugese DIDN'T provide. He came up with that shit on his own. In earlier battles he used straw dummies to create diversions while he attacked from the side.

It might be weaboo but the man was a brilliant general. The fact that he played on everyone's preconceptions about the musket only makes it all the sweeter.

>>9158803
Your moms better than both.

>>9158817

The Portugese didn't *force* anything.

>>9158733
Courtesy of Yoshitaka Amano.

>>9158849
Europeans did it in 3's. That's a volley every 10 seconds.

>>9158849
That actually does seem pretty fucking boss.

>>9158902
>implying there was uniform drill in the 16th century Europe.

Some Euro armies were more adapt with the musket than others. But, at least "Euro Musketeers vs. NIPPON musketeers" is a somewhat new troll topic.

katanas were the last resort weapon for Samurai

>>9158902
Weren't Gustavian musketeers in a four-man deep corfiguration that fired over each other's shoulders or some shit like that?

Also, caracole cavalry, fuck yes.

>>9158733
Eh, don't feel like drawing right now.

Have a Dwarf Samurai

>>9158505
>Plus, Gothic plate is overrated, Italian White Plate up in this bitch.
The Italians replaced their alwyte armour style with the Milanese style, and replaced that in the 1500s with alla tedesca (a la German) style armour... So I am not seeing how your statement is very valid.

>>9158788
This is actually an acceptable essay, though the author is WAY too interested in equivocating to show off his knowledge of both martial traditions. No, a samurai's "aggressive style" (whatever that means) does not make up for inherently weaker armor.

However,
>some high-ranking 16th century samurai lords actually owned pieces of contemporary European armor, gifts and purchases which they even wore into battle--they did not prize them merely as exotica.
I would have loved to see this. A thousand samurai... and one Jap decked out in full plate. I bet everyone knew he was a badass.

Good luck getting through knight armor. That shit was so strong they eventually decided they didn't need shields. Your Katana is going to have a tough time of it when his left gauntlet is designed specifically to stop sword blows and is free.

>>9159009
Fuck you, that class was underpowered as shit. Hell, I still have to deal with a dumbass who refuses to play any other class.

Holy fuck, I don't want to type it again. At least this time it is more my knight beats your while only one fuck complains about katanas.

YOU'RE GETTING SLIGHTLY BETTER AT THIS, GO EAT A COOKIE

>>9158610
Which is barely longer than a katana...

As others have said, the katana was not a cavalry weapon. The samurai mostly used lances(yari) for that. Prior to the katana the tachi was the sword of choice, and it was a cavalry saber, but post the Mongolian invasion the samurai learned their lesson and dropped the tachi for the yari as primary weapon, and the tachi evolved into the katana.

>>9159199
In all honesty, using the KATANA as the comparison in combat between a knight and a samurai is retarded.

A samurai, especially one faced with a highly-armored opponent, is not going to bust out his katana, that's not what it's for. He's probably going to use his spear, as mentioned.

Samurai has a gun.

>>9159231
As if he'd use a fucking spear over the sword that can cut through solid steel.

>>9159231
That or a tetsubo, which is basically a large, metal-studded club. The point is, he's going to pick a weapon more suited to facing heavy armor than a katana, which is designed for more lightly-armored opponents [and will provide some fine slicin' in those cases]

>>9159049
Namban Gusoku looked like this.

>>9159293
Heh, you can see the Euro style underneath.

>>9159246
If a samurai was packing a two-handed club like that what makes you think a knight would stick to an arming sword rather than using a pollaxe or zweihander?

>>9159350

What makes you think either would be using a sword right off the bat to begin with?

Probably an even fight.

The knight has far superior armor, but the Samurai and his polearm of choice will have power enough to threaten it, and superior reach- but not as much as you might expect, since the knight will most certainly be using a Longsword (a REAL longsword, a two-handed blade.)

Basically comes down to which warrior is better.

>>9159380
because shwards are kewl

>>9159394
This thread is talking about gunpowder, which assumes a 16th century knight, the last century in which there really were any. He'd use lances, two-handed swords, muskets, and longswords.

Fuckers forget that the Knight's First weapon of choice is the motherfucking LANCE.

>>9159416

>16th century

Oh, my bad. In that case the knight and the samurai are faggots mean to absorb 30 crossbow bolts in the first five seconds of battle.

>>9159435

Last I checked, I thought Samurai were primarily mounted troops as well? Specializing in horse archery and, of course, lances?

So... Samurai vs. Knight jousting?

DRAWFAG STAT

>>9159488
Knight, easy.

I've been playing medieval 2: total war... mongol invasion started with it's thousands of horse archers. Yeah, sure, I have my knights. But my best tactical advantage? Trebuchets. Dozens of them.

>>9159488
>samurai
>lance

nope

>>9159488
No lances and no shield for samurai

>>9159618
>>9159660
No shields is true, but the samurai did in fact use lances, they just didn't look like European lances.

ONE'S A HARDBOILED VETERAN OF THE SECOND CRUSADE.

ONE'S A HEDONISTIC THRILLSEEKER FROM THE LAND OF THE RISING SUN.

WHEN SIR ROLAND IS FORCED TO WORK WITH A NEW PARTNER...THE MEDIEVAL WORLD WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN.

ROLAND AND TANAMOTO - THE BEST 12TH CENTURY BUDDY COP FILM YOU'LL EVER SEE.

>>9159838
I would watch the shit out of this.

>>9159882

Second.

>>9159838
For some reason, that made me think of Rick Shaw: Rolling Justice.

I demand a picture of a knight and a samurai sitting down side by side and jerking eachother's dicks while blushing furiously.

Do it.

>>9159998

>>9159838
Marry me

>>9159838

I would watch / read this

>>9159838
Starring Chris Tucker and Jackie Chan.

>>9160494
YOU CRAZY, TANAMOTO. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS THAT ARE COMING OUT OF MY MOUTH?

>>9159618
>>9159660
Yari were more spears than lances, but they were still "polearms to be used from horseback"

Fags forget Katanas were FAMILY HEIRLOOMS AND STATUS SYMBOLS not weapons of choice, no one was stupid enough to ding grand pappy's sword that the daimyo gifted the family with unless he had no other choice.

Horse arches and mounted spearmen first, everything else second. The "swordsman" image comes from the Tokugawa era when there were no wars and Samurai became bureaucrats with nothing to do but spar endlessly.

Nothing in the Samurai arsenal is remotely capable of handling plate armor.

>>9160676

There is also the fact that swords are easy to carry around all/most of the day where spears of useful length and bows are a pain in the ass. Swords are great personal defense weapons because of that. And since Japan was mostly a peaceful country for most of the Tokugawa Shogunate there were really only two uses for a weapon; personal defense and dueling. Coincidently, swords are good for both.

was playing 3.5 d&d with some friends one of em was a weeabo with a SAM-ARE-I kept going on about how he could kill my fighter till i finally got sick of his shit talking and had my fighter challenge his SAM-ARE-I to a death match.....beat him to death with my maul in 4 rounds still makes me giggle a little

>>9160729
You fucking joking? You seriously underestimate the cutting power of a katana.

>>9160729
Their spears are.

Unlike the spears of Europe, they are essentially three-sided prisms, wedges designed specifically for stabbing straight through armor and mail.

>>9161771
No, he doesn't.

>>9161792

>>9158233

>ght enough to do cartwheels in (Henry VI

Get the fuck out.

>>9161792

hahaha, fucking saved. I'm going to show this to every weeaboo I see.

The knight would win.
By the time the Samurai had bothered to exist, western europe would be far beyond sword and shield tactics in battle.

>>9161862
I know that knights swam in plate. There's no reason to think they couldn't do cartwheels.

>>9161887
good fucking point

>>9161887
this

in an episode of ultimate warrior they had a "fight" between a knight and a pirate. even though the knight was armored like a fucking tank, simple gunpowder weapons still broke through platemail and chainmail, letting the pirates win hands down

>>9161874
That gif is labeled wrong; the sword being hit is a long sword both times.

Original Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hy_A9vjp_s
The test in the gif starts at 5:55

>>9161862

Huh. Looks like someone doesn't do their research. Knights could and did do cartwheels. Finding the cite.

>>9161950
Are you BLIND?
Do you not see the sword get hit by something that is very clearly a katana in the gif, get dented slightly but crippling the katana.

And then another sword is hit by a completely different sword, a longsword, which is completely unaffected, but breaking the target sword?

>>9161939
I find that a little hard to believe. Gunpowder contributed to the downfall of knights, but it was not because it busted through their Plate armor. It was because it killed the horse. Knights are not justifiable in a pitched battle outside the role of heavy calvalry.

Still, even dismounted, you pretty much have to outnumber a knight to do anything to him.

>>9161865

Yeah, because a blade is meant to be struck laying down like that.

I once even read an article about that. Knight would win due to shield. Samurai didn't have it and in such a duel he would drive his katana into shield, knight would disarm him and then send samurai to his ancestors.

>>9162008

That's why he's got more then one weapon, bro. And who uses such idiot tactics anyway?

>>9161995
Guns pierce armor at short range. Early firearms had severe drop off in stopping power, however, making armor very much worth it. Plus that bowmen were still around. Ottomans liked using both muskets and bows, for instance.

Real reason that heavy cav was sidelined was because drilled and trained infantry don't flee from it the way shitty medieval infantry would. It didn't die off, though, it just because a specialized part of an army.

>>9162002

>implying that a test of how strong the blades are cannot be performed with one blade lying still.

Weren't samurai more of a caste than anything? Knights began training at earliest childhood; they were born and bred to be killers before anything else. Did samurai have comparable training/lifestyle to knights?

>>9162028
>Samurai
The fuck is he going to do? pull his bow out and plink at the knight?
Or jab him with one of his daggers which aren't made for stabbing?

>troll thread
>127 posts and 24 image replies

God dammit.

>>9162028
Oh right, forgot about all this tanto shit etc.
Well I guess if you're not used to shields it is natural you don't expect your weapon being stuck.

>>9162038
Yes, they did. They were a caste, and they were born and bred to serve, and they were expected to train early and hard. Skill levels are comparable, but style and equipment is what breaks the comparison.

>>9162008
No. A samurai would never thrust at a solid object.

>>9162100
That's what she said.

Don't forget that if the knight lives, he's going back to a mighty feast of roast pork, mead and sexy european wenches.
If the samurai wins he's going back to some rice, an asian woman who will only get uglier as she ages and maybe, if he's lucky, some sake.

I think the knight would be more compelled to win.

>>9161939
>Implying that show isn't a total fucking joke.

>>9159838

>>9162160

Ohboy. It appears that whoever made this thread decided to make it into multiple boards at the same time.

Doesn't really matter, these threads always go the same way. Some retards insist that katana cut through armor or that a Knight who is on foot can barely move, they are proven dead wrong, and then they go cry themselves to sleep until the next thread pops up and they can attempt their bullshit yet another time.

tl;dr Knight wins

>>9162149

>implying they don't back up their shit with SCIENCE!.

>>9162160
Pirates and ninjas be fucked now.

>>9162230
If you had bothered to read the thread, you'd have seen the whole ka-tuh-nah bullshit was disregarded for the first half of it.

>>9162239
I only saw one episode but it was pretty horrible.

Some of the experiments were concrete and informative, but then at the end he just "put the data into the computer to run a simulation", whatever that means.

He did that by comparing Short Range Weapons, Medium Range Weapons, Long Range Weapons and then Special Equipment. Except, he compared a bow with a throwing spear (in the long range category) and then compared some mace to... a shield (special equipment category).

In the following simulation by actors you saw a Viking with his shield comfortably *on his back*, running towards a Samurai *wielding a bow*. He only drew his shield when he was faced with the mace, the only one of the Samurai's weapons which could have damaged the shield.

It was ridiculous. For all the cool experiments, this part was so dumb that I'm going to call the show a joke, too.

>>9162039

He'll just bust out a gun and kill the knight. Japan had more guns in the 15th century then any European country at the same time. Despite the whole "Samurai don't use guns" bullshit that came later, actual Samurai during the sengoku period used whatever worked. The Japanese as a whole realized that guns were useful as fuck and began to use them in mass quantities, which the dudes who won being the dudes who used them the best. That is why we consider Nobunaga a fucking genius, while we only remember Shingen Takeda and Uesugi Kenshin as "mere" badasses.

Also, for what it is worth, the Europeans of the time did not take the Japanese lightly. There were writings that considered the Japanese the best out of all asian cultures, and some considered it the equal of European countries. The Spanish went so far as to send out a royal decree stating "not to risk the reputation of our arms and state against Japanese soldier" in 1609.

Whether that opinion was warranted is up to debate(or merely based on irrelevant factors), that was the Europeans thought.

I would say the West wins due to a superior industrial base and nuclear weapons.

>>9161939

Didn't the knight's armor block every shot from the pirate except for one pellet from the shotgun? And in that part they didn't put chainmail under the armor.

>>9161994
Not blind at all. I can very clearly see a katana vs a longsword, then a longsword vs another longsword. Are you trying to say that it isn't? Watch the damn video.

>>9162338

I second this. There were some cool concepts but some of those fights were fucking retarded. "Lets pit a highly trained and brutal Apache Warrior against a bronze covered, crowd pleasing Gladiator." Which is basically putting a Boxer against a Navy Seal, fucking retarded. Then there was "Spartan vs. Ninja. Which was just fucking retarded in so many ways. The Samurai vs. Viking one was decent, but yeah I noticed that the viking didn't use his shield except against the one thing that could break it, which clearly favored the Samurai under retarded circumstances.

Bastard Sword > Katana

Can do everything it can, but is designed better. Problem with Katana's is that once the design was made it wasn't really expanded on, all the expanded on was how they folded the steel, which is important no doubt - however the design needed work. European smiths tended to expand on both.

>>9160729

>>9160676
Look up what the definition of lance is. I think you will find that the samurai did in fact use lances from horseback.

Primarily mounted archers, not so much after the Mongol invasions in the late thirteenth century. Japanese warfare changed from being about small skirmishes of individual noble warriors to being about massed formations bringing the rise of the ashigaru. It was during this time that the daikyu became the less popular/common weapon of the samurai, to be replaced with the yari making their primary role that of a lancer.

Bows were nice and all, and continued to have a lot of ritual and sport uses, but the importance of the yari can be seen in that the honorific title of "Seven Spears of [Name of Battle]" given to samurai for being extra impressive and glorious during an important battle (Seven Spears of Shizugatake being the most famous), but also by there being a notable Three Great Spears of Japan. There were no honorific titles based on the bow, or legendary bows like there were for the spear.