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[ERROR] No.77633782 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General, the thread dedicated to TSR-era D&D, derived systems, and compatible content.

Broadly, OSR games encourage a tonal and mechanical fidelity to Dungeons & Dragons as played in the game's first decade - less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching meta-plots and a greater emphasis on player agency.

If you are new to the OSR, welcome! Ask us whatever you're curious about. We'll be happy to help you get started on this playstyle.

>Troves, Resources, Blogs, etc:
http://pastebin.com/9fzM6128

>Need a starter dungeon? Here's a curated collection:
https://desuarchive.org/tg/thread/75631028/#75663784

>Being called a FOE (False OSR Enthusiast)?
Report, hide, and ignore. Don't give those people (You)s.

Previous Thread:
>>77593165

What are you working on, prepping or playing this weekend?

>> No.77633820

Want to contribute to the thread but don't know where to start? Roll 1d8 (dice+1d8 in the "options" field) on the table below!
Our OC gets archived at osrgcontent.blogspot.com
Tag your post with [OC] to help archive anon find it, please.

>1. Make a spell
>2. Make a monster
>3. Make a dungeon setpiece
>4. Make a wilderness setpiece
>5. Make a magic item
>6. Make a race or class
>7. Make a 4-10 room dungeon
>8. Roll 2d8 and combine.

>> No.77633951

If you're reading this thread to find out what system is a good starting point for OSR play, the 1981 D&D Basic Set (along with the Expert set, often referred together as B/X) is considered the gold standard by most of this thread. Read the original rulebooks to learn how to play, and if they're a little bit of a pain to use for actual play, consider one of the following reworkings of that particular ruleset (known as retroclones, ordered from most to least accurate to the original ruleset):
>Old School Essentials
>Labyrinth Lord
>Basic Fantasy RPG

>> No.77634015

Do MU lose a scroll (which say has a 3rd level spell) if they try to learn and fail their INT roll? Is the same true for spell books?

>> No.77634070

>>77634015
Depends on what rule set you're using, but I'd say
>Yes, because it makes a tradeoff between getting to use the spell once, or risking the valuable scroll to get it in your spellbook.
>No, because you don't need to roll, just drop some gold to copy it to your spell book

Any task that allows a player to "roll til they win" should just be an automatic success, especially when it's a task that's done during downtime.

>> No.77634417

What do you do when you are coming up with an encounter table and end up with an odd number of ideas and don't want to just put meaningless filler inside?

>> No.77634440

>>77634417
You can just reroll if you end up rolling a useless number, or roll a dice twice the size and then halve the result. Both options are super quick.

>> No.77634474

>>77634070
>Any task that allows a player to "roll til they win" should just be an automatic success, especially when it's a task that's done during downtime.
NAYRT but fully agreed. This is damn near objectively correct.

>> No.77635145

>>77634417
duplicate an entry for something commonplace til a better idea comes. Or make a slight variant.

Looks cheesy if it's something you want to publish, but it's fine for a table tool.

>> No.77635196

>>77634015
Attempting to copy a spell from a scroll into a spell-book always destroys the scroll, exactly as if you'd used the scroll, regardless of whether you succeed or fail at the copying. Attempting to copy a spell from one spell-book into another never destroys the copy in the original spell-book, again regardless of success or failure, because you can't "use up" a spell book entry (or cast magic directly by reading directly from the book) the way you can with a scroll. Note that only AD&D, OD&D, and Holmes have an Int-based % chance to succeed or fail at copying a spell; in BECM or RC, there's no roll, so copying a spell succeeds automatically if the process isn't interrupted; and it's not clear whether you even can copy spells in B/X, given that MUs can't know more spells than they can cast. (B/X falls shy of perfection thanks to the idiosyncrasy and the lack of clarity on this point. I think the common interpretation, though, is that if you have a spell-book or scroll in your possession, you can use it as a resource to fill your spell slots when you level up; in which case, like BECM, there's no roll, you just succeed, and scrolls used in this manner are destroyed.)

>> No.77635213

Question to anyone who's used Lulu (or tried to use Lulu) to privately print out that black-cover combined B/X tome: has anyone every tried this but run afoul of copyright / Lulu's terms of service? What about the Greyharp single-volume OD&D?

>> No.77635843

Today is Shilling Saturday!

Reply to this post with your blog or current WIP. Follow back, comment on other people's articles, and give feedback.
Today it's okay.

>> No.77635911

>>77635213
Lulu checks for coypright on the pdf file. If there is none, you're fine. They would have a stricter look if it was published but privately you're fine.

>> No.77635998

>>77633782
>What are you working on, prepping or playing this weekend?

I'm working on a dungeon I rolled.

By the way, do you guys have any good tables to roll on for special rooms? I rolled quite a few of them and I'm having writers block.

>> No.77636220

>>77635843
>What are you working on, prepping or playing this weekend?

A player seriously pissed off a powerful vampire twice without dying and is now running away over the sea where he can't be easily followed so i'm going to create some islands/nautical encounters.

>> No.77636384

>>77634417
I like changes in armament to keep encounters fresh. If 2d10 gnolls are on the table, the lower d10 have slings and the rest have swords.

>> No.77636412

>>77635998

>> No.77636427

>>77635998
This thing a fella here made the other day also seems super useful. Hope he can finish it sometime

>> No.77636526

>>77635213
I’ve printed several copies. They don’t care.

>> No.77636756

>>77635843
Update to Watchtower on the Indigo River. It's been a while, but I haven't stopped.

https://clericswearringmail.blogspot.com/2021/02/0802-progress-point-watchtower-compound.html

>> No.77637066

>>77635998
Make random tables bespoke to the dungeon. Like two tables of random mood words. Evocative actions and descriptive words, not specific things. Roll on the tables for inspiration.

>>77635843
I'm working on a mad science system. Working out the price-power scale is difficult and unsure if it's even a good idea.

>>77634417
Cut an encounter you like less or come up with more.

>> No.77637382

Is there a good way to run a "boss battle" encounter? Or does that not really work in tabletop form

>> No.77637501

>>77633951
What does LL have over OSE or BFRPG? Isn't it less accurate than the previous two, is worse organized and has typos that haven't been fixed in all these years? Both OSE and BFRPG also have supplements that implement content from AD&D, arguably better.

>> No.77637534

What is the worst /osr/ class and why is it Paladin?

>> No.77637541

>>77637501
Bumping for interest

>> No.77637576

>>77635843
I'm working on a big Hex Crawl setting that I can reuse constantly. once it's ready I'll be running some newbies through it using the recently released OSE Advanced Fantasy Book set. I won't be posting the map because people will notice where I traced landmasses from but my players won't and that's the important part. I've been DMing RPGs for about 15 years and I'd have to say this is the hardest I've worked on any game project ever.
It'll end up being 145 x 110 24 Mile across Hexes marked with major cities and landmarks. Then broken down into 6-mile Hex Regions as players explore stuff. I based my demographics and how much stuff there will be per Hex based on a mix of the campaign building tools from Seven Voyages of Zylarthen and the Populated Hex Crawl series.

I'm probably front-loading my workload far too much. Hopefully, it'll pay off.

>> No.77637669

>>77637382
Here's a cool generator I've found:
https://www.kassoon.com/dnd/boss-fight-ideas/

>> No.77637755

>>77637669
This is really cool, thanks!

>> No.77637802

Does anyone know if B/X or any of it's retroclones and variants had a means for players to pickup new languages? I know OSE Bard learns some as he levels up but I don't know of any others.

>> No.77638635

How much surrounding land would a village of 300 or so reasonably have? I've been working on a twin peaks inspired game where weird shit happens in and around a village, all because of a necromancer who housed his lair in an underground temple that the village was built on top of. I've got the obligatory spooky woods covered, I just trying to figure out whether I should bother with small scale hexes or not

>> No.77639054

>>77637802
I'd say PC's that hang around in a place that primarily speaks another language to pick up enough to hold a conversation within a month, and become fluent in two or three. As for learning a language through study, probably 100 gp or so and about 1d4 months to become fluent and/or literate.

>> No.77639614

>haha dumb normies trying to hack 5e for everything instead of just trying out a new system. play another game you fags!
>btw here's my clockwork cyborg ballerina class for B/X

>> No.77640256

>>77635843
Drawing 4 blog

>> No.77640436

>>77637534
I dunno if you are rolling honestly it’s pretty damn hard to get a Paladin. I allow 3D6, roll 7 times, drop lowest and arrange to taste and we have not had a paladin in 10 years of real time playing.

>> No.77640495

>>77633951
>>77637501
Well organized, accurate, great ports of 1e content and a clean layout? OSE.
Free, cheap to print, some modern tweaks and a lot of free supplements too? BFRPG.
Old, inaccurate and poorly organized? LL. You don't need LL to use An Echo, Resounding supplement or the Red Tide setting because LL is still 90+% B/X, so if you're glancing at LL just for those, don't bother with the core system.

If you were to recommend a third B/X retroclone, instead of recommending another edition, I'd go with LotFP simply because it has the best tweaks I've seen done to B/X.

>> No.77640555

>>77639614
At least most hacks trying to turn 5e into something else entirely basically bolt a new homebrew system on top, OSR is still stuck either recycling 80% of an old edition, warts and all included, or going full rules light and mixing some of the shit elements with not great light mechanics. Excluding straight retroclones like OSE, which are a waste of time.

>> No.77640592

How do you run a pointcrawl dungeon using OSR?

>> No.77640747

>>77639614
Yes, gonzofags are a blight

>>77640592
You don't because you can't keep STRICT TIME RECORDS in a pointcrawl

>> No.77640841

Questions regarding water/wine and rations in becmi/bx. I get the difference that iron rations won't spoil overnight in dungeons and wine wont spoil either. My question is how much water/wine needs to be consumed and carried daily? Is drinking generally hand waved? Do pcs need one skin a day? More? Also is it granted they are sipping water while exploring or do they have to stop and rest a turn every hour. My current (first) group isn't taking it into account but if it was common practice want to add that burden on them. Rations are stated to come in one weeks worth. Is that 21 meals they must stop and eat? Also what is the appropriate penalty if they hunger/thirst or starve/dehydrate? Focusing too much on this thing can also bore the group.

>> No.77640860

>>77637382
>have big monster
>have textured terrain, verticalaity, interactive bits
> have rumour about big monster and/or terrain
>have treasure
Its similar but different. A lot of Boss Battles™ in /v/ are necessary to compete or clear to pass, where as in osr tabletop there's often a way around, or to avoid or otherwise interact with, Like tricking the grimlocks in to thinkiung your a messiah, leading them to the monster and then looting its stuff while they get killed, etc.

>> No.77640939

I'm getting together a game of White Box: FMAG specifically because it looks like the easiest OSR game to run (I have a garbage attention span and have had trouble DMing games in the past.) What are some easy-to-run and survivable adventures to start out with? I know about the starting dungeon link in the OP, but I'm curious specifically about dungeons that are especially easy to run.

>> No.77640951

>>77638635
>small scale hexes or not
I did The Village as a setting for a while. I didn't worry too much about specifically mapping out the surrounding area, which would probably be about a 5 mile hex. I gave the players a rough map with the village, a rival village, a few lairs. I ended up using a rural/farmland random encounter table and they added features and such to their map as it happened. Seemed to work well enough.
You could probably just use that 5-mile hex map that breaks down the hex into smaller chunks and detail those if you were so inclined.

>> No.77641047

>>77640841
One quart of water/wine a day. Drinking and eating are hand waved, PCs should be assumed to be drinking while exploring and eating during their hourly rests. I think there are huger/thirst rules in Basic Fantasy RPG that you can look at for free and use.

>> No.77641105

>>77640747
STRICT TIME RECORDS are easier in a point crawl. Every two points have a set distance between them and thus a set time to travel. Simply select a destination, calculate travel time, and roll for wandering monsters.

>> No.77641119

>>77633782
I'm gonna be drawing up an ancient starship dungeon map for my Hulks and Horrors group to explore for the climax of the current campaign. I'm probably gonna go with random generation, though I do have a couple ideas for specific things the party can run into aboard the ship. I think I'll go with three levels of 15-20 rooms each.

>> No.77641142

>>77637802
I use a system where every so often (currently 8 weeks, /4 if immersed, /2 if you have a teacher; but I might change to 16 weeks with additional /2 if you have reference materials) you check to improve your language skills, 1-6 scale corresponding roughly to CEFR levels.

I have these rules because languages actually matter in my games.

>>77638635
1 ha/person is probably sufficient, plus a little. So maybe 1.5 ha/person, or about 4 acres/person.
>bother with small scale hexes
Unless you have a really really good reason to, no. You aren't going to miss them.

>>77640592
1 point = 1 room. 1 thing you do = 10 minutes.

>> No.77641830

>>77640592
Haven't done it but It seems mostly pointless (lol) and a downgrade in terms of tactical/strategic envirnoment. You make rooms, connect them with lines, mark how long it takes to travel through the lines and that'll do it. But at that point just make the rooms and connect them with hallways. I'd think, having not run point crawls, the big difference will be describing hallways and being able to use them as players/include details vs just moving from location to location and not being able to use them as players or as a dm.

>> No.77642042

>>77634417
You can always just have the last number be "roll twice—two encounters are already interacting with one another"

>> No.77642056

>>77635843
Monster post this week, this time on the elusive jackalope.

https://wizardfightclub.blogspot.com/2021/02/jackalopes.html

>> No.77642084

Has anyone automated the RANDOM GENERATION OF CREATURES FROM THE LOWER PLANES tables from the AD&D dmg?

>> No.77642242

>>77642084
I don't know, but I could probably whip something up in Python if you wanted.

>> No.77642423

>automation
nuskool deviltry

>> No.77642434

>>77635843
Just a quick post this week, something I posted here anonymously a year or so back. I worked up a template for people to make their own 2nd edition Monstrous Compendium entries.

https://osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com/2021/02/2nd-edition-monstrous-compendium.html

>> No.77642556

Rolled 1 (1d8)

>>77633820
Rollin'

>>77635843
I haven't posted anything in a while, but here's my blog anyway: https://escapefromzardoz.blogspot.com

I have a heap of unsorted and unfinished notes/ideas and I can't get motivated to finish anything, what should I work on, lads?
>heir generation/education rules for domain play
>character quirk/notable feature tables for character generation
>megadungeon
>write equipment sets/hirelings on blank cards

>> No.77642563

>>77642084
Ha, I made a creature today. It was a bony-limbed, turkey-headed fellow with antlers and a snout.

>> No.77642758

>>77642423
Pressing a button to have a bunch of random die rolls done for you so you don't have to repeatedly do it yourself and waste time is cool and smart, actually

>> No.77642779

>>77642242
I might do it on perchance later. I'll post it here if I do.

Someone must have made it on Abulafia already but that sight has been kill for what feels like years

>> No.77642909

>77642758
Digital RNG does not replicate Physical knucklebones, get ye gone

>> No.77642933

>>77638635
Assuming it commands the space of one 6mi^2 hex, that'd be something like 20k acres. A village like that, bout half of folk will be within a mile of each other, the other half will be a ways out of town, and likely a majority of that terrain is untamed, even if it is ungrazed fields. Depending on age of the settlement, there could be stone walls or shaker fences blocking out large areas of grazing, fallow, and farmed land that would instead occupy that wild area. For instance, a local alpine town near me of about 300 pop is strung out over 2 miles of road in either direction, surrounded by grazing land in conveniently about six mile diameter, and that town is about 150 years old (developed with modern tools, so say 300 year old town of that size will have near-fully tamed land)

>> No.77642945

77642909
Sorry this thread is for the OS'R'. R stands for Renaissance, if you want actual old-school you could probably go to your local store (If they still exist) or walk down memory lane, if you are an actual grog and not a kid roleplaying as one.

>> No.77643060

>>77642758
No, the slower, piecemeal reveal of whatever is being generated via dice rolls allows for a better imaginative experience. Physical rolling is always superior to automatic generation.

>> No.77643071

Do you guys have dungeon "types" with specific treasure/reward/challenge types within them? For example whenever my players come upon elven ruins that weren't totally plundered they know that they'll likely find enchanted weaponry but lots of banshees and possibly liches, whereas a dwarven ruin may contain plenty of traps and rune lore.

>> No.77643123

>>77640256
Where is your blog?

>> No.77643161

>>77643071
I personally try to keep dungeons as unique as possible but I appreciate your method.

>>77641119
It's going to be a long climax. That's a lot of rooms.

>> No.77643380

>>77643060
Maybe for (you). I got better things to do with my time.

>> No.77643416

>>77643071
Yes, if for the sole reason that it's easier for me to plan things when there is a central theme or topic to work around. Plus, I like to have a lot of smaller dungeons, so it's better to stylistically distinguish them so that they don't all blend together

>> No.77643474

>>77640256
How are you so prolific?

>> No.77643624

>>77643161
Maybe "third act" is a better way to put it. But yeah, the system is supposed to be based around exploring sprawling wrecks in space but thus far all of the "dungeons" in the campaign have been 10-15 rooms. I wanna cap it off with a proper space hulk.

Granted, I don't expect my group to fully cover the map, but rather power their way through as best they can to their objective. Based on this campaign and a 5e game I ran for them a while back, they'll probably skip about a third of the rooms.

>> No.77643829

>>77643123
>he doesn't know

>> No.77644002

Do you charge for training in your games, lads?

>> No.77644033

>77642945
>R stands for Renaissance
1. The R stands for Revival
2. The Renaissance ignored modern advances to return to old ways, which is the opposite of what you advocate
3. Get fucked

>> No.77644041

>>77644002
No, I revamped my coinage in other ways so I don't really feel the need to have that particular money sink. Nothing wrong with it if you're using the normal gold standard, though.

>> No.77644062

>>77641105
Don't want to rehash an old argument from a couple weeks ago but some anons here believe that maps that represent travel time are bad and wrong, for some reason. No use in trying to convince them.

>> No.77644177

>>77635843
https://leveldrain.com

Polished my blog, new domain and new content. Just released a Caribbean dungeon on drivethru and people seem to like it + play reports and random ideas :)

>> No.77644308

>>77637501
Labyrinth Lord is B/X in one concise volume, and it was much more available back in the early OSR. Also, it can be modified into an odd cool AD&D b/x blend with The AEC advanced compendium

>> No.77644343

>>77640939
Tomb of the serpent kings

>> No.77644412

Pointcrawls are dumb because they reduce uncertainty and interactivity.
When you actually define distances and dimensions then encumbrance and strategy become much more clearly defined. Chokepoints and ambuscades become apparent and exploitable.

>> No.77644482

Pointcrawls are a specific style of play that have advantages and disadvantages, just like anything else. To completely ignore their benefits and flat out reject them solely for their disadvantages, you are limiting yourself intellectually and submitting to the predominant dogma. Slave mentality.

>> No.77644642

No benefit justifies the reduction of gameability and agency. You accuse others of being slaves while ye are a slave to ye own sloth and pride, pointcrawler.

>> No.77644832

77644033
Sorry, the revival was when everyone started shitting out mediocre retroclones with just enough bland changes that they weren't legally actionable. Now that is over since you can just get a pdf or actually buy the old editions.
OSE, the best selling most accurate retroclone has ascending AC in it, if that's not embracing modern advances I don't know what is.
Besides, everyone memes this "Ruling not rules, lethal vietnam dungeon crawl" playstyle that comes from every primer about old school, which is not necessarily old school at all, and more renaissance revisionism.

Now go crap your diapers, grandpa.

>> No.77644862

>>77644308
OSE is in a single tome (They released both a version divided into different books and a concise tome). Any edition can be "modified" with AD&D stuff, I think you meant that it has an AD&D-style supplement, which OSE also has and depending on your preferences, it might be better done than ALL. Besides, you don't need core LL for it even if you prefer that to the OSE Advanced Fantasy Tome.

>> No.77644932

>>77633951
Revised this based on discussion, will post in next thread.

>> No.77644959

>>77644412
>Actually defining the dimensions of your dungeon down to the inch
>Thinking "defined" hallways are different from undefined hallways
>Thinking players lose agency because you can't pull out a ruler and measure if they have movement left in their turn or not before the next wandering monster check
Sorry fellas, your simulationist thread is over at /gurpsgen/
Or maybe /v/, if you are so obsessed with measures and tracking every single minutia. Ever played Rogue?

I will be prepping gameable dungeons, filling in the details with common sense. You guys prep all your pointless measuring and imaginary interior designs to your heart's content.

Cheers 2e chads.

>> No.77645087

>>77644642
Slumbering Ursine Dunes is a pointcrawl and better than anything you have or will ever make. Sorry, I don't make the rules.

>> No.77645134

How do I create an OSR setting?

>> No.77645138

>>77644642
>No benefit justifies the reduction of gameability and agency
This is such a retardo opinion. You realize that different forms of play offer different varieties of "gameability" (buzzword) and "agency" (buzzword), right? Do you even know what those things are? And you can play with both pointcrawls and conventional maps in the same game? Do you need to be reminded to breath every moment?

>> No.77645224

>>77645134
Start with the name of a town and the beginnings of a megadungeon. Get some players and start playing. Make up more between sessions, with the help of random generators that inspire creativity rather than eliminating it.

>> No.77645508

>>77645134
Ignore everything /osrg/ tells you

>> No.77645646

>>77640256
hey mansedude, the lizardfolk market pic in your latest blogpost http://themansegaming.blogspot.com/2021/02/whats-happening-in-town-square-d6.html is by an artist called hashika/ハシカ
they deleted their pixiv gallery ages ago, but there's some of their art on e621

>>77643123
see above for a link

>> No.77646094

>>77642084
Hope you like textfiles.

https://www.dwarvenautomata.com/random-add-demon-generator/

>> No.77646183

hey /osrg/ whats your favorite OD&D clone and why?
I want to know more about systems other than whitebox FMAG

>> No.77646242

>>77646183
Seven Voyages of Zylarthen with ideas pilfered from OED, namely the fighter feats, target20, and stone encumbrance. 7VoZ has superior organization to the LBBs and uses the silver standard by default, so it's a very suitable chassis for an OD&D shitbrew if the rules-as-written aren't enough for your group.

>> No.77647049

>>77644308
Don't forget to mention the AEC stuff is in Advanced LL. Really convenient to have all the options in a single book and much cheaper than purchasing OSE and it's advanced companion.

>> No.77647175 [DELETED] 

>>77646183
Dungeons & Dragons by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson
It has all the material from OD&D and only the material from OD&D, and encourages you to use your imagination, intellect and learning to fill in the rest.

If you want a game with more defined rules and solidified content, I suggest the Basic Set by Tom Moldvay

>> No.77647178

I have my game in 3 and a half hours and I have nothing prepped.
My players just finished preventing an old reactor core from going critical using a one time "time jump" and smashing a console so no one opens the reactor. Now they are starving, half dead and in the snow.

I might throw a fafhrd style "snow witch" at them

>> No.77648040

Are there any OSR systems that take place in the modern day? I want to have my players be delinquent teens in a boarding school for teens, but it has a megadungeon underneath it. If no OSR system works with this idea, can you point me in the right direction?

>> No.77648136

>>77648040
Stars without number can run that. Just use the tech level 3 things

>> No.77648173

>>77648040
Silent Legions, Esoteric Enterprises, I think there's a few others. Silent Legions also has a lot of random generators for cults and their machinations, if you're going for a more lovecraftian horror bent.

>> No.77648244

>>77644002
Yeah, but probably not what you’re thinking of. I don’t charge to level up but there’s other things that you can train for. Warriors can train to learn fighting techniques, mages obviously train to learn spells and magical techniques, rogues might learn expert skills, everyone can train to learn what amounts to cross-class skills, like a mage actually becoming skilled with a sword or what have you. You can also pour a pile of gold into essentially buying XP as a general training regime. Stats can be trained up. All this stuff is relatively rare, it won’t be present in every little podunk town, and it is very costly. You can also only spend so much in training per level so characters can’t strike it rich, take a year off, and come back as ubermensch.

>> No.77648331

>>77648040
>Is there a modern dungeon crawling and wilderness exploration game with lethal rules, exploration turns, gold/treasure based progression and over reliance on hirelings for propping up weak class-based, skill-less characters with saving throws like "dragon's breath" and "wands"?
Why do you think any of that is a good idea?

>> No.77648461

>>77643474
10 months of covid unemployment helps a lot

>>77645646
Thanks brah.

>> No.77649916

>>77644482
...What are the advantages? It seems mostly like a thing to do if your group doesn't like various forms of travel as part of the game?
I read the Hill Cantons posts on point crawls and it might be worth doing for cities, abandoned or ruined. I've been using Yoon-Sun's random old city ruins generator rather than specifically mapping out points though.
Best idea I've seen anyone mention here is using it for an island crawl t b h.

>> No.77649977

>>77648136
>>77648173
I was thinking something like d20 Modern but functional, good for dungeon crawls, and OSR.

>> No.77650090

>"What do you do?"

players: ... *crickets*


Best practices for fixing this. How do I fix this? Some sessions are better than others, some are amazing but still I get these sessions where it feels like I'm Sisyphus rolling a ball (player inertia) uphill.

>> No.77650133

>>77645134
http://www.pandius.com/buildcmp.html

The checklist works really well, try to stick to the sequence and you won't waste too much time on meaningless prep.

>> No.77650144

>>77633782
sorry in advance if this is a dumb question, but what the hell are the little brown books? i thought it went white books (0e) to B/X -> BECMI OD&D. what am I missing?

>> No.77650173

>>77650144
Also 0e. Different printings had different colours. IIRC the originals were brown, the reprints are white.

>> No.77650215

>>77650173
oh I see. thanks anon!

>> No.77650282

>>77650133
This stuff is also available in the OSE SRD, but with better layout.

>> No.77650613

My villagers destroyed a town accidentally and now the church is rounding up survivors to investigate what the fuck happened.

They're being dragged to a tent city a hex or two away.

How can I make this interesting, and what are some good NPCs I can add amongst the survivors?

>> No.77650621

>>77650144
>i thought it went white books (0e) to B/X -> BECMI OD&D
You forgot Holmes Basic. Shouldn't blame yourself too much, though, that shit turns into a tree pretty quickly.

>> No.77650709

>>77642556
>heir generation/education rules for domain play
on the one hand, of the four things you mentioned, this is probably the one I've seen the least content for so it would be a nice place to start
on the other hand, who even really does domain level play?

>> No.77650712

>>77650090
You can drop hints or make vague suggestions. Or announce an irl time limit before you start rolling random encounters and *make* things happen.

>> No.77650826

>>77649916
You sort of answer your own question there, but here are some more upsides to pointcrawls:
>relatively easy to prepare
>takes the party right to where the action is, making the game move faster
>makes it easy for players to understand big locations in the game world since there always going from one landmark to another within those locations
>offers a fairly simple procedure for travel and exploration, which once again speeds the game up
As stated before, pointcrawls aren't perfect or objectively better than any other method, they're just another tool in the tool belt and another way to have fun with the game. I'm not running any pointcrawls currently but I played in one and ran part of SUD a few years ago. Both were great experiences.

>> No.77650897

>>77650090
This is a bit of advice coming from someone with years of experience: you should almost never just ask "so what do you do?" It almost always leads to silence and blank stares—even in the most involved and engaged groups.

Nothing wrong with giving options. "You can do x or y, or something else." I also found that going over the situation again is always helpful. "The wizard tower is to the north, the monsters are reported to be gathering in the south, and a meteorite recently landed somewhere east of here. Where would you like to go?"
or
"The monster has Tordek in wrapped in his tentacles, Morgan Ironwolf just leaped across the bridge to chase the hobgoblin, and Snurd is desperately trying to prevent her guts from spilling out of her stomach. You got a chicken in one hand and a torch in the other, and more grimlocks are climbing up from the pit below. What do you do?"

Something along those lines.

>> No.77650914

>>77644002
Not exactly training cost, but I use gold for xp and have to get rid of the gold before it's turned into xp. This can represent not only training costs, but also carousing, conducting magical research, sending money back home to the dwarf clan, donating to the church, etc.

>> No.77651415

>>77650897
Don't listen to this retard. You're there to present the world to the players. If they need more prompting appoint a caller to do that, but honestly it just sounds like you have crappy players.

>> No.77651418

The search for the mystery miniatures continues!

>> No.77651445

I'm having a one shot tomorrow set in the Warhammer universe (not using WHFRPG because I don't like d100 anyway). The catch is that it's ALL DWARVES. I have 8 players that will play dwarves. They will try to infiltrate a Karak taken over by skaven and get back a heirloom from it. They'll all start at heroic level.

Give me your best skaven (wererats) encounters, ideas, dwarf undercity things/rooms/dungeons, etc. My one shot is already all prepped, but I can definitively add or modify thing if you guys have great ideas.

>> No.77651470

>>77651415
To expand on this, if your players aren't used to OSR play they might be afraid of "breaking" the game by trying something you haven't prepared for in advance. Maybe you need to sit down and have a talk with your players about how old-school play works, and remind them to think and act as their character would and to treat everything in the game world as interactive. But whatever you do, PLEASE do not follow the advice to prompting your players like they're playing a CYOA, this is only going to make the problem worse in the long run and make the game not fun.

>> No.77651493

>>77651445
Probably better off asking here
>>77642387

>> No.77651565

This is tangential to OSR but I am planning to make a homebrew game. Essentially I want to "trick" nuD&D players into playing OSR. So it will have the elements of:

>no skill checks, unless it's something that player skill cannot handle
>relatively high lethality, or crippling a PC at the very least
>gold for XP
>in-depth wilderness rules including comfort / morale / fatigue type of system (less OSR directly but something I feel like I should include)
>slow healing
>random character generation

But on the other hand:
>lots of "character options" and combat crunch
>very "skill based" combat with different maneuvers or attack options to use in different situations
>separate parry and dodge, one more depending on attack bonus, one more depending on Dexterity
>no damage bloat, options that give extra damage, or whatever, no weaponfocus tier shit feats
>also split up magic classes into firechanter, runescribe, alchemist, soothsayer, etc and use lots of kinda of magic
>static hp at level 1

I want a compromise between players who need "options" and OSR which is not about that. I am trying to do this while compromising as little about the OSR experience as possible. How do I do this?

>> No.77651628

>>77651565
The big thing about nuD&D is that so many of the mechanics of the game are linked into eachother, so any changes will fuck things up - so I'd highly recommend starting with something OSR and building on it. I know someone here was talking about how they really like Worlds Without Number for being a nice balance of options for players while still being really honed in on the OSR playstyle. Maybe you should look at how it does things?

>> No.77651653

>>77650090
Point at the closest guy and say "what do you do". The blank stairs are because of a lack of urgency, when you target one person they feel the weight of the group on them and come up with something quick. As you go down the line, each person will come up with something as they anticipate their turn.

>> No.77651661

At this point, should we just put a stock reply in OP for shitbrewers who want to trick their 5head players into playing OSR in various ways?

>> No.77651700

>>77651661
I'd say it's pretty hard to effectively curtail that since trying to make OSR play work with nuschool shit is actually a complicated discussion, as compared to the 'i want to osr where start' question which has a very simple stock answer.

>> No.77651754

>>77651628
I am. I'm gonna start with B/X and add some stuff I already wanted to add. No skills, no rest-based mechanics, just different "options" but with some rules that prevent any broken combos. It will be OSR-adjacent obviously not true OSR but it will be a compromise.

>>77651661
Not just 5heads, PFheads as well.I want to give them mechanics to engage with in the context of a unique game with tons of options. By unique I mean my own homebrew, not something groundbreakingly original, just something that doesn't exist already. So they can't netdeck builds, but they can still satisfy their build-tism but since I set up the rules for abilities I can limit how they synergize or de-synergize.

>make OSR play work with nuschool shit
Mainly just combat options and more narrowly-focused and flavorful magic-user classes. Kinda like Grey Six, which I think is somewhat OSR.

>> No.77651777

>>77651445
>heroic level

>> No.77651862

>>77651754
>So they can't netdeck builds, but they can still satisfy their build-tism but since I set up the rules for abilities I can limit how they synergize or de-synergize.
This sounds awful for everyone involved. Is it possible to just talk to them about it being a very different style of play, running a 1shot where you try an emphasis interesting tactical choices in combat rather than just making your own version of feats?

>> No.77651944

>>77650090
Give them a "default" (typically a megadungeon) and then give them rumors of other directions they can investigate.

>> No.77651945

Are there any mechanical differences between OSE and Basic D&D?

>> No.77652099

>>77651945
Basic as in B/X? I *think* there's only one: OSE uses a single attack matrix, instead of several matrices for different classes. But I'd double check even that one.

Basic as in BECMI is different in several ways, but that's not what OSE was out to clone.

>> No.77652392

By the way, Envoy from /hsg/ here, we've got an anon and a few others slinging ideas together to try to work on something OSR related, module, setting, game? We're not sure yet but we're keeping scale down.

Drop in and check it out send some feedback on the doc when you get the chance.

>> No.77652476

>>77652392
tl;dr
Early Modern period city, mosquito vampires from another dimension take over a massive city and undead-ing a lot of it and PC's play as members of one of the last remaining forts/bastions trying to survive/get help/adventure and kill shit.

>> No.77652594

>>77651415
>>77651470
Hard disagree. There's nothing wrong with reminding players what is going on in the world. You're not telling them to choose a path, you're just laying out the current circumstances.
I agree that prompting players for set courses of action like a CYOA is bad, but that's not what you're doing when you're just rehashing details you already told them before.

>> No.77652891

If you had to pick a living person to write a new Dungeon Master's Guide, who would you choose?

>> No.77652973

>>77652891
Mike Mornard

>> No.77652997

>>77652891
Probably Justin Alexander. I don't think he'd make the most OSR-friendly DMG but I think the 5kiddies need that shit more than people already into OSR play.

>> No.77653044

>>77652891
Easy, Gabor Lux.

>> No.77653086

>>77652891
>Campaign Duration: 09/11/13 - 10/16/13
lol

>> No.77653173

>>77652891
David "Zeb" Cook.

>> No.77653216

>>77652891
James Raggi

>> No.77653249

>>77652973
>>77653044
Both good answers.

>> No.77653267

>>77653216
>the DMG is delayed by 15 years
>ultimately he drives his company into bankruptcy to avoid publishing it

>> No.77653321

>>77653267
He's doing well now iirc

>> No.77653333

>>77651862
>Is it possible to just talk to them about it being a very different style of play, running a 1shot where you try an emphasis interesting tactical choices in combat rather than just making your own version of feats?
I've tried and they think it sounds boring. Maybe I described it shittily. But I think that they feel if they can't make a unique character it will be no fun.

>> No.77653365

>>77652891
Tim Kask

>> No.77653368

>>77649977
Bumping because while I like the options given to me, I want to see what else there it. Stars Without Number just feels like you need to jury-rig it to do something like that, while the other two are horror (though not necessarily bad systems).

>> No.77653393

>>77653333
Tell them they do make a unique character, it's just through play.

>> No.77653466

>>77653393
But they will say "I can do that in 5e, but also make him unique from the start, so he is even more unique." I have to explain to them why taking the starting uniqueness away is better. Personally I don't care for uniqueness, even within the context of a group of players because obviously the game at large probably has some identical characters here and there. But they likely will and want to make backstory, etc for each character rather than just rolling up new ones.

I want to make something like that Sword Dream game an anon posted a while ago, you started with random gear, random hp but with a decent static boost so you'd never have 2 hp or 1 hp, and some random gear you inherited. I want to make that, but allow some feats that let you do special maneuvers or take special bonus/malus tradeoffs (but always inefficiently, like at a 2 for 1 ratio). I don't know quite how to explain it but I want to emphasize warrior classes strongly and I want to make the combat interesting. Maybe even a 4-power setup like LoL or Darkest Dungeon or one of those games. Yeah, it's cringy and stupid, but it gives them something to bite on and they'd only be in-combat powers anyway for the most part.

>> No.77653566

>>77653466
It sounds like they might just not be the right audience for OSR, not everybody likes everything you know.

>> No.77653860

>>77652099
Nayrt but that makes me curious: anyone know of any BECMI clones other than rules cyclopedia?

>> No.77653869

>>77652891
Whoowhee lad Mentzer for sure

>> No.77653913

>>77653333
>>77653466
This is exactly why we need a line in the OP for this shit, you'll never convince your "MUH UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE PC" players to enjoy OSR, even less so if you try to accomodate them instead of just telling them to deal. Your players are not a good fit for OSR, you need to abandon either your old-school dreams or the group.

>> No.77653947

>>77653913
Agreeing. If your "players" can't be convinced to play a game that you're interested in running, then it's unlikely that they have the adventurous spirit to enjoy a classic FAG like D&D Basic, anyway.

>> No.77653994

>>77653860
The only clones of that are Cyclopedia clones (Dark Dungeons). I imagine most people feel that there's not much point in cloning just BE.

>> No.77654324

>>77650897
I like it

>> No.77655219

>>77653994
i want somebody to do a BE clone that includes a solo CYOA tutorial with a cute cleric girl who survives

>> No.77655230

>>77653086
He's actually managed to finish writing it now! It's just editing left, so it might eventually come out late 2026.

>> No.77655241

>>77652891
Adam Koebel's triumphant return

>> No.77655279

>>77653994
>just BE

B covers 90% of actual games, BE 95%, thats why all the commercially successful clones rarely go far above name level.

>> No.77655428

>>77653466
Then go for the other side: 5ed limits your options by having everything codified and expecting you to close you in these shitty pre-created boxes. With oldschool, the only thing stopping you is your imagination and GM approval. Want to play a sasquatch? dragon? demon from hell possesing a cute 13 year old nun? They are all just abstract statblocks that can be made in a minute.

>> No.77655592

>>77652891
Maybe Kieth Crawford. Would have great randgen tables at the very least.

>> No.77655686

>>77655592
Kevin, not Kieth. I should go to bed.

>> No.77656677

>>77655592
It'd be interesting to see him try to write something like that, though I feel Worlds Without Number could technically be it due to all the setting and adventure creation advice. He certainly has the verbosity and gygaxian prose down, at least.

>> No.77656746

>>77653466
My suggestion is that you not try to "sell" it as an alternative to 5e. I think the only way your group would change their minds is if they tried it once and got hooked.

>take blank minidungeon like >>77633820 and key it with a few monsters, traps, treasures, and an oddity
>Tell them you want to run old school, and they should approach it as a board game rather than an RPG
>let them make characters with plain old Moldvay basic but give them class specific starting gear and begin the game at the mouth of the dungeon. The only rule they have to know is which die is the d20, and they are playing treasure hunters whose goal is to escape the dungeon with the best loot. Tell them that fighting is deadly and they have a decent chance of TPK if they fight everything they see.

If they can't stand an hour of play, then let it go.

>> No.77656785

>>77652891
I can't think of anyone better than Keith. After more than a decade of OSR he's still prolific. Not all of his games have been great but average quality is probably higher than TSR.

Delta would be another possibility, though it would be completely different.

>> No.77656904

>>77656746
>they should approach it as a board game rather than an RPG
Kind of a bad way to describe it, anon. At least to me, it sounds like characters will have a bunch of special abilities and are supposed to fight every creature in the dungeon.

>> No.77657002

>>77656904
Thus my last meme arrow. 5e and D&D are not just different games, they are practically two different types of game.

L1 characters are disposable until they gain a level or two, and you can add whatever back story and aesthetics you want as long as it doesn't grossly contradict what's happened up to that point.

>> No.77657064

>>77653086
After Greasy Jim’s panting rant in the dark, frozen Helsinki streets begging for writers and artists, I’d say we won’t be seeing the Referee book anytime soon.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rRwWbHJ3J0Q

>> No.77657381

>>77633782
Extremely underappreciated gems:
>Seven Voyages of Zylarthen
>WhiteBox: Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game

>> No.77657791

>>77656746
>they should approach it as a board game rather than an RPG
FOE GYG

>> No.77658036

>>77645134
>>77645224 has it right--start small and grow with actual play.
Also see
chgowiz-games.blogspot.com/2017/11/just-three-hexes-campaign-starters.html
and the attached.

>> No.77658066

>>77657381
tl;dr on what makes Zylarthen good?
I'm skimming it now and it seems kind interesting but... weird. Most retroclones are like "what if Old D&D, except easier to use?" except this seems to keep the same stilted Gygaxian prose and format as the little brown books. It even opens by saying the author isn't going to explain what terms like "saving throws" mean, exactly like the originals. So... why wouldn't I just play the original game?

>> No.77658554

>>77658066
It's basically 'OD&D reimagined' rather than a straight up clone. As to why I like it:
>Does away with the cleric, gives MUs all spells
>A thief class that doesn't suck
>Decent encumbrance system
>I like a lot of the combat rules
>Cool monster list (the classics, plus a few new ones including martians and such)
>0HP rules that aren't too light or too harsh (decent death & dismemberment table)
>Generally, a lot of emphasis on the things that make for good adventuring games
Honestly I think it's a great read even if you're not going to run it, kind of like OD&D or AD&D

>> No.77658865

>>77658036
>or 2 kilometers for those of you who go in for recent faddish modes of measurement
that's great

>> No.77658907

>>77651777
As in "level 4 or more". Do you OD&D?

>> No.77658988

>>77658554
that's fair. The prose does make it a fun read

>> No.77659626

>>77657381
What does White Box have over OSE? On skimming it looked to me like a B/Xafied OD&D to the point where it was almost closer to a B/X clone. Genuine question.

>> No.77659913

>>77659626
Not him, but I like it just for the presentation. It's a cheap, handy little book with everything you need. It has ascending AC and single saving throws which makes it easier for newbies and casuals.

I think the ultra simplified thief skill mechanic kinda sux but at least it's simple.

>> No.77660054

>>77652891
Chris Gonnerman

>> No.77660164

ey, what's the new password for the OSR 'chive? one on the share thread aint workin

>> No.77660178

>>77659626
>B/Xafied OD&D
Why do you say this? It doesn't have race as class or anything like that.

I like it because it's OD&D but with just the right amount of "modernization" (ascending AC with Attack Bonus instead of To-Hit tables, single save...)

>> No.77660192

>>77658554
Just gave it a look myself and I really like it. Just a few things off the top of my head that I like:
>The thief setup is probably the one of my favorites that I've seen. Not alot of abilities, but the ones he has are solid and it doesn't make him seem useless at the earlier levels.
>The weapon matrices and adding a bonus depending on how more powerful than a normal man you are speaks to me more than the variable damage options other games use.
>Additional combat rules are really cool. Even if I don't use the system, I might toss some of these rules in as house rules.
Good stuff and I see why you find it to be underappreciated.

>> No.77660680

What are some of the most misguided pieces of GMing advice you've heard and bought into over the years?

>It's your job to make sure your players have fun

It's only your job to create the conditions in which fun can conceivably happen. It's like throwing a party and inviting people that just sit in a corner and complain that they're bored.

>You need evocative descriptions to run a great game

You need brevity far more than purple prose. This one always kills me because most people I've played with need short, punchy pieces of information about their environment and their incompleteness actually prompts the back and forth question/response dynamic between players and the GM that is essential for great games.

>You need to create a thoughtful narrative that draws players in

This one drives me nuts. Zelda 1 vs Zelda 3. Zelda 1 starts with the player in control, they have no equipment and start outside of a cave, figure it out. Whereas A Link to the Past has you jumping through the hoops of an introductory adventure and never really takes its thumb off the scale.

>Pure sandboxes are the best way to play the game

This is an overcorrection to "railroading" and the idea of the RPG as a way to tell a story (still a bad idea). Having the sandbox world is fine, but most players need something to accomplish within it, even though old school play has its own gameplay goals (get rich or die trying) that are fun on their own, most players do not have the kind of creativity and stamina to play this way.

>> No.77660840

About to run a modified version of Morgansfort for some randoms tonight. Hope it goes well

>> No.77660994

>>77660840
Tell us more about it anon

>> No.77661019

How do you get a real life group?

>> No.77661062

>>77661019
1. Live in a state where people aren't scared of the virus

I don't know the rest. I wish I wasn't in New Jersey.

>> No.77661192

>>77661019
You basically just don't. :(
Now it's particularly difficult due to covid, but before it was still impossible. Over the years, I've tried talking various groups into playing something- *ANYTHING* That's not 5e, 3.5, or Pathfinder/Starfinder, and it's like trying to convince an autistic kid that there's better food out there than chicken tenders.

One local group sat and played in the most boring Starfinder Campaign I've ever seen. They protected a fucking pillar for three sessions in a row from waves of the same enemy over and over... And they actually WANTED to play that instead of Keep on the Borderlands or Caves of Chaos. With Those other games, they don't have to think or really become engaged with the game. They could just idly sit and wait for their turn, and then recite their character's ability off their sheet, then roll the d20. If it was a 20 they'd all shriek in joy, and if it was a 1 they'd make scared monkey sounds... OSR games would force them to think or to imagine a room's layout. And that's just to much for modern players.

>> No.77661520

>>77633782

Random encounters: What is the guidance in the various editions?

I don't own anything older than 1E AD&D and AD&D is surprisingly useless (3E actually OK, but I'm hoping to find out what older editions did)

>1E AD&D: No guidance except when creating a random dungeon (In that case - 5% chance of a random encounter for each generated section)

>2E AD&D: Whenever you feel like it man

>3E D&D: 10% chance of an encounter whenever you do one of
>>Pass an hour
>>Make noise
>>Enter a high-traffic area
>and you may omit the roll
>>In cleared out dungeon areas
>>Leaving the dungeon

>4E D&D: Literally no guidance. There’s guidance on how to construct random encounters but none on how often they occur

>5E D&D: Whenever you feel like it man

>> No.77661620

>>77661520
>1E AD&D: No guidance
I mean, if you're retarded and can't read then any guidance is wasted on you

>> No.77661686

>>77661620
Which fucking page bro, I looked through the entire DMG

>> No.77661744

>>77660680
>This is an overcorrection to "railroading" and the idea of the RPG as a way to tell a story (still a bad idea). Having the sandbox world is fine, but most players need something to accomplish within it, even though old school play has its own gameplay goals (get rich or die trying) that are fun on their own, most players do not have the kind of creativity and stamina to play this way.
100% agreed

Also
>YOU MUST START AT LEVEL 1

>> No.77661842

Inspired by the blue bard I've set about purchasing metal figures for my upcoming ad&d game

This is my first round of purchases to see if these are what I want, figures are Ral Partha/Hackmaster pewters from ironwind metals.
Any other anons play with grids/miniatures?

>> No.77662108

Anybody know where I could download some of the books from appendix N? Which ones are your favorites? I just read the first Fafhrd and Grey Mouser novel and it was great.

>> No.77662191

>>77662108
It's a natural, but just in case you haven't tried it yet, go for Conan. This story hooked me:

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600821h.html

>> No.77662201

>>77662108
Google search "ebooks darknet proxy *author name*"
I got everything Leiber ever wrote, as well as Vance, Howard, Gygax, Tolkien and a bunch of obscure authors from there. All in epub format, easy for phone or tablet reading.

>> No.77662351

>>77661520
Pretty much all early versions have a variation of
>1 of 6 every turn or every other turn (10 minutes per turn) in the dungeon
>1 of 6 every day in wilderness travel

>> No.77662393

>>77662351
Thank you

Was that other cunt right, did 1E AD&D have it and I just missed it?

>> No.77662432

>>77662393
I believe so, probably in PHB. In general if you're curious about something pretty fundamental to the original D&D gameplay loop, I'd suggest just cutting out the middlemen and checking out OD&D's rules.

>> No.77662467

>>77662108
If you liked the first one. I highly recommend the second and third books. I finished book two and am partway through book 3. Pic related is one of my favorite stories and that's towards the end of book 2. Not sure where the best place to get them are.

>>77662191
Gonna give that a read. So far for Conan stories, I only read Phoenix on the Sword, which was an awesome read.

>> No.77662491

>>77662393
The quickest way to find where a difficult passage is or some other first edition issue is to google it with "Dragonsfoot" added to your search term. Inevitably that forum has covered it.

>> No.77662508

>>77661686
Page 174 appendix C AD&D DMG

>> No.77662572

>>77662108
gen.lib.rus.ec

I use it for my college books and books I read for fun all the time.

>> No.77662608

>>77662508
>Page 174 appendix C AD&D DMG

>Procedure: When a random encounter is indicated by the periodic check,

Which periodic check though? That's what I'm looking for, the only thing in the entire book that this could mean is the one-in-20 chance of monsters when generating a random dungeon section unless I've overlooked something.

>> No.77662634

>>77662508
That page does not tell you how frequently to make a wandering monster check, it only tells you what to do when an encounter is indicated.

>> No.77662654

>>77662508
Christ, people had to deal with this kind of thing each page back then?

>> No.77662696

>>77662608
I’m not sure where in the book or even if it’s specifically in the DMG (though I believe it is), but I’m fairly certain AD&D calls for a 1-in-6 check every turn of exploration.

Also, no insult intended, but you should read the random dungeon generation procedures more carefully (they’re quite informative, honestly). The 1-in-20 chance you’re referring to isn’t the only instance in which a monster can be generated, and those are KEYED encounters, not random encounters.

There’s a procedure somewhere in Appendix A that tells you how to stock rooms as well, I think there’s like a 40% chance that you can encounter a monster that way as well. I’m at work and obviously don’t have the book on hand.

>> No.77662783

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54068&sid=47ebaa3f1c28a4781c0823883f8e1be8
It appears that at least this anon is correct in that this is a mess of a subject. I once again recommend looking at OD&D for rules like these, since Gygax might've genuinely just assumed he wrote it in for AD&D since he did for the original.

>> No.77663057

>>77661842
>using miniatures for OSR play
Couldn't be me.
It just seems too tedious when my players are already mapping, to then put miniatures, which are out of scale, on the grid. What does it add?

>> No.77663519

Is Stars Without Number OSR? It is well written and I like it but aside from some mechanical stuff that reminiscent of old dnd it doesn't really seem like OSR material, maybe it is just me though.

>> No.77663626

>>77663519
In terms of mechanical compatibility it's extremely compatible with bestiaries and modules, so while I think it is OSR or at least OSR-adjacent, the distinction is up to personal taste at that point.

>> No.77663955

>>77661842
I do, but I don't like the standard 25–28mm scale that modern minis come in, so I just wind up using small pawns and checkers most of the time.

Any Anons out there have a good source for 20mm (1:72 or 1:76) fantasy minis? I need me some gobbos and skellies.

>> No.77664096

>>77663057
Anon....you don't put the miniatures on the map the players are making. Typically you use some kind of grid, or in the case of Gary, a wargaming table with terrain.
>what does it add
Tactical depth and clarity.
In ad&d if my fighter has a longsword and shield, and my cleric has a footman flail and their hirelings have spears, they can create a defensive hedgehog formation that would otherwise be impossible via theater of the mind.
They can position around terrain and use length to fend off foes, create a funnel to make an encounter easier, accurately measure range and most importantly VISUALIZE and CONTEXTUALIZE the encounter.
If I tell you "9 lizardmen are running through the corridor towards you, clubs and spears drawn" without any reference, it could seem very intimidating, but with miniatures you realize they are fighting two abreast and there is a statue you can use as a stop-gap, suddenly the concept of *tactics* is introduced to the game.
Also, inb4
>that's foe
No it isn't
Gary, Kuntz, Mentzer, Cook, Holmes and most of the other elder entities of TSR used miniatures. The 3lbbs are explicitly listed as a miniatures wargame and every version of the game published by TSR listed rules for using miniatures on a board to represent the conflicts the players encountered
This strictly theater of the mind mapping simulator abstract combat shit is what is FOE. None of the progenitors of our hobby played like that, until Dragonlance, which was the deathblow to the way we enjoy our hobby.
So many of you guys piss and moan about nu-d&d with its narrative BS and UwU Catgirl nonsense, but then simulate combat entirely from a narrative perspective.

>> No.77664110

>>77663955
Look up "dark alliance fantasy miniatures" they have a "not LOTR" lineup of goblins and orcs as well as undead and then Caesar makes 1/72 adventurers

>> No.77664487

>>77664110
Thank you, kind anon.
>>77664096
The phrase "theatre of the mind" wasn't even in widespread use in gaming until Mike Mearls said it during the D&D Next playtest, ffs.

>> No.77664658

>>77664096
Gary did not use miniatures in his D&D games. Arneson did, however.

>> No.77665056

>>77636427
>tfw someone actually saved your WIP シ
glad you found it useful anon, one day I'll finish it and post a cleaned up version.

>>77650613
>the crazy hobo prophet
>the rogue who knows the truth of what happened
>the merchant who doesn't know the truth but will make up a story to benefit himself
>the child who lost everything
>the prostitute who is in debt to the party
>the town mayor, and he's relieved

>> No.77665127

>>77642556
megadungeon

>> No.77665154

I roll the reaction table in the planning process, correct?

>> No.77665215

>>77664096
RPGs came out of wargaming. I’m old enough to have been a war gamer first. Hell who doesn’t playing with toy soldiers!? The shift occurred when the majority of people came to RPGs as their first tabletop experience outside of say board and card games. They didn’t have the miniatures and couldn’t be bothered to acquire them and the tools/skills to build and paint them up properly. Which is why we have abominations like the over priced, plastic, terribly sculpted and terribly pre painted minis that Wizards sells.

>> No.77665235

>>77663057
You don’t need a grid. We measure for outdoor combat and use war gaming terrain.

>> No.77665248

>>77664487

(1)

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=%22theater%20of%20the%20mind%22

The spike in 2009 is Ludacris dropping a hot new single, but you'll notice all the references to the phrase in the years leading up to it, too - in fact, more so before 4E dropped than after, so definitely before Mearls talked about D&D Next.

(2)

EVEN IF we pretend you were right, just because we didn't use the phrase before Mearls, we still had the concept. "With or without minis?" is a discussion I was in on bulletin boards before you learned to walk

>> No.77665289

>>77665154
You can if you want. Standard procedure is to do it when the players first make contact. I prefer this method personally as it keeps me, the DM surprised.

>> No.77665473

>>77665154
>>77665289
You have to wait, you can't reliably predict if the usual party leader will be out of commission or not, and his Charisma usually applies to reaction rolls.

>> No.77665640

>>77664658
And Arneson only used them abstractly, not with precise grids or measurements. I prefer minis and some of the rules were obviously written with them in mind but to pretend that it's "None of the progenitors of our hobby played like that" back then is revisionist nonsense.

>> No.77665692

>>77664658
>Gary did not use miniatures
Given how many of the monsters we see as iconic to the franchise all started as Chinese toys he got from a dime store bargain bin, I'm going to need hard source on that.

>> No.77666179

>>77665692
https://lmgtfy.app/?q=did+gary+gygax+use+miniatures

>> No.77666580

>small brain
using miniatures

>big brain
not using miniatures

>giant brain
only the ref uses miniatures

>galaxy brain
only the players use miniatures

>universe brain
using 1:1 scale miniatures

>> No.77666671

>>77666580
>only the ref uses miniatures
I'm planning to try this out with a VTT.

>> No.77666703

>>77665692
This is true, but this is not using miniatures in play.

>> No.77666789

>>77633782
I've heard it said that west marches games are similar to how early D&D was played. What are your thoughts? I doubt the claim myself, but have no evidence either way.

>> No.77666859

>>77666789
West Marches is basically an attempt to reinvent the oldschool wheel, yes. Not that many people did a full on sandbox wilderness hexcrawl back in the 70s and 80s because it was hard to do and, as it turns out, pure wilderness isn't that exciting, but it was something that some people did for sure. It's not a massive coincidence that Ben Robbins began the idea at the same time as the OSR discussion really started in the mid 2000s, that was sort of the zeitgeist of the time.

>> No.77666907

>>77666789
From what I understand, early D&D games:
- Often centred around one megadungeon.
- Used an "open table" rather than a "weekly group meeting" format.
- May have usually begun with entering a dungeon and ended with the players bringing their loot back to the town, although I'm less certain about this one.
Knowing all this, it's easy to see the West Marches comparison.

>> No.77667096

Only one person showed up to my online BFRPG game. Nobody else showed up, so he immediately left. Nobody answered any of my messages asking if they'd like to join, despite initially saying that they were free and really enthusiastic about playing. This is the third or fourth time this has happened. I can't find a group in real life either.

>> No.77667134

>>77667096
What's your discord? I'd be down to play

>> No.77667156

>>77653913
>>77653947
alright I'll stop posting about it sorry

>> No.77667205

>>77667096
We'll all make it one day, anon.

>> No.77667327

>>77667096

>> No.77667368

>>77667327
Why does this crop have an ad in it?
>>77667096
Online games are terrible for this. Nobody has any investment in it. With real-life friends, there are other social bonds that keep people punctual and helpful.

>> No.77668318

>>77652891
A tie between the BFRPG dude and the SWN dude.

>> No.77668522

>>77633782
Having recently read Raiders by Daniel Freedman, can somebody suggest another comic book series/graphic novel which captures the OSR spirit? Having no actual face-to-face games reduced me to reading comic books and playing solo/journaling games.

>> No.77668649

>>77662783
everything I read about ad&d just makes me appreciate B/X more

>> No.77668697

>>77633782
Isn't Rules Cyclopedia better in the long run than B/X? Or is it there a reason why you should stick with the latter?

>> No.77668721

>>77668649
B/X is pretty amazing in terms of how consistent a product it gives, it's fair to have it as the default. I still love OD&D though.

>> No.77668742

>>77667368
honestly, your best bet is try get a hot girl to join fully aware she's being used as a hook, advertise and then watch as your new players actually contribute to discussions and sessions

>> No.77668770

>>77668697
B/X is the 1981 release, 1983 was the start of BECMI, which RC is a combination of - they are fundamentally different products with a different game feel. B/X is the absolute bare minimum with everything running pretty amazing, BECMI has a lot of cool ideas but can feel quite bloated and may not function as smoothly. It's all preference at that point.

>> No.77668833

>>77668742
The future is now.

>> No.77668852

>>77667096
This is me, except I'm also in an odd timezone for the seeming majority of people who play online, and my work schedule makes it even harder. I've basically resigned myself to knowing I'll never actually play a game with other people again, at least for the foreseeable future.
It sucks but it did get me into solo osr gaming, which is very different but cool in its own way.

>> No.77668864

Reminder that paladins are FOE
t. playing as paladin

>> No.77668903

>>77668864
what's wrong with them? if you get lucky enough to actually roll the stats to play one you might as well go for it

>> No.77669026

Reminder that everything is bait.

>> No.77669028

>>77668697
There are many small differences between BX and BECMI. No one is significant enough to matter on its own but it all ads up to a noticeable difference.
If you're playing BX already and aren't using a retroclone that includes a homebrew companion book, you might want to look into BECMI/RC (they're the same thing) if you intend to play higher levels. Otherwise, just keep going with BX.

>> No.77669046

>>77668522
Bio-Meat: Nectar
Metro Survive
Cradle of Monsters

>> No.77669056

>>77668833
mans the definition of the audience he caters to

>> No.77669299

>>77668903
Some fags think AD&D isn't real OSR.

>> No.77669468

>>77669299
in becmi lawful fighters can become paladins at name level iirc

>> No.77669911

Anyone have any good footprints/maps of medieval cathedrals like pic related?

>> No.77669977

>>77668522
Hillbilly by Eric Powell(creator of The Goon) is a great one

>> No.77670006

>>77669911
Actually nvm I just found what I was looking for on wikimedia

>> No.77670034

>>77668903
I think the problem with paladins is their role-playing restrictions often put you at odds with the party and they severely hamper how you interact with monsters. They are required to seek out and destroy evil which can get in the way of faction scheming. And if you’re playing a paladin you can’t be willfully ignorant because that’s an alignment violation. In my experience most paladin players act Lawful Neutral since they justify bad behavior as working for the greater good. Plus it’s really hard to capitalize on that huge Charisma since all your retainers also need to be LG and you’re not prone to be a negotiator unless it’s with neutrals or goods.
Paladins work well by themselves or maybe as part of a tightly themed party of LG clerics and whatnot but they’ve always been sticky. Shit, just look at the volumes written about them in older publications like Dragon Magazine. They’ve had issues from the get go.
I think cleric could have been given less spell access, a broader power than just turning undead, and maybe some weapon leeway and you’d have a more broadly applicable holy warrior archetype that could be played as a goodly knight type without all the paladin’s baggage.

>> No.77670066

>>77665248
You're kind of a pedantic twat, ain't ya? Lemme guess: gen-Xer.

>> No.77670338

>>77668697
Acknowledging what the other anons are saying, I think you could do well by using B/X for your base game while having the Rules Cyclopedia on hand to extract certain tables, mechanics, and procedures that aren't covered by B/X. BECMI's biggest issue is that it can get pretty bloated, but if you just take what you want from it and map it onto a (perfectly compatible) system that you know already works well, you're going to have a good time.

>> No.77670360

>>77670066
Did he prove you wrong and now your ass, she is hurt?

>> No.77670374

>>77662783
>Gygax might've genuinely just assumed he wrote it in for AD&D since he did for the original.
Most likely. Even at the time he mentioned that he just forgot to add rules for spellbooks to the DMG, for example. They're in the UA just because he screwed up. (I don't really understand why he didn't add the material to the DMG as well in a revised printing, but hey ho.)

>> No.77670376

Does pic related have dungeon procedures/time keeping/crawling rules or is it FOE garbage?
I'm getting tired of B/X and don't want to try to decipher AD&D but also don't want to switch it up if the replacement is garbage.

>> No.77670402

>>77670376
Don't know about C&C but why not just play one of the countless other OSR games that aren't B/X but still have dungeon procedures?

>> No.77670426

>77670376
Your words are as empty as your brain, B/Xtard!
/osrg/ ill needs a shitposter such as (You)!

>> No.77670427

>>77670376
It’s kind of a 3e/1e hybrid. There’s some inherently janky stuff about the skill and save progressions. It works alright in its sweet spots, which is lime levels 1-5 maybe, but it’s not great in my experience.
Is B/X not in depth enough for you? Wha are you looking to add to your game?

>> No.77670526

>>77670427
Primarily looking for variety in PCs.
Don't get me wrong, B/X is fucking amazing, but a dwarf is a dwarf regardless and a thief is a thief.
The level of interactive depth is pretty low after multiple campaigns, regardless of how they turn out, which is fine, I don't think we are supposed to run years long campaigns.
I've considered ad&d, but it seems so jank compared to B/X.
Essentially my players and I want to mix it up with more variables, especially in terms of thief abilities and class variability.

>> No.77670545

>>77670374
>(I don't really understand why he didn't add the material to the DMG as well in a revised printing, but hey ho.)
Probably didn't want to make people have to buy the same book again for extra content. It's like with the 2e Revised books, there's a bunch of shit they could have added to them, but all they did was fiddle with the formatting.

>> No.77670657

>>77670526
Just start writing more classes or plunder them from expansion publications. B/X Adventurer has some decent material. OSE Advanced lays out the 1e classes. There’s really no shortage of 3rd party class material out there. You just need to do a little leg work. Check out the Labyrinth Lord folder in the MEGA trove in this thread’s pastebin. There’s 40+ classes in there. They are not all good, some are quite shit, but it will give you some perspective on what can be expected of outside material.

>> No.77670842

>>77667327
I just read this shit and it hit HARD.

>> No.77670867

>>77670657
NAYRT but there are plenty of other games that come pre-packaged with a bunch of classes, and not homemade ones of questionable origin that you have to graft on to a pre-existing setting. There's nothing wrong with playing a game that isn't B/X, it will be ok, it's not for everyone all the time.

>> No.77671036

>>77669468
Companion was printed in 1984, it fails these shitlicker's purity test right out of the gate,

>> No.77671066

>>77669026
I want (you) at my table.

>> No.77671079

>>77670526
There is a metric fuck tonne of 3rd-party classes for BX found in the various homebrew Companion books. Use them. They were made to be used.

>> No.77671096

>>77670867
You are correct and some of those are good games. But if anon has already invested personal time, player time, and probably some money in a rules set, but needs some kinda content bump, why switch?
I’m not trying to be adversarial but what would you suggest elsewhise? S+W Whitebox has some good expansion stuff. I’ve always wanted to try Ambition & Avarice. Crimson Blades is pretty dope but the rule set is not really compatible.
Do tell.

>> No.77671129

>>77633782
>image claims player rolls their stats in LBB OD&D
Wrong. The Referee rolls your stats and starting gold.
>Prior to the character selection by players it is necessary for the referee to roll three six-sided dice in order to rate each as to various abilities, and thus aid them in selecting a role. [...] Each player notes his appropriate scores, obtains
a similar roll of three dice to determine the number of Gold Pieces (Dice score x 10) he starts with, and then opts for a role.

>> No.77671202

>>77671096
>But if anon has already invested personal time, player time, and probably some money in a rules set, but needs some kinda content bump, why switch?
This is fair. I was thinking more along the lines of how, given that there are so many games out there that are all meaningfully different enough to their own discrete game, one shouldn't be afraid to split with the system they were using and try something new. You're view is still absolutely correct, though.
Swords and Wizardry is another game anon might have fun with, as is AS&SH, Gold & Glory, GLOG or one of its countless derivatives. All those games have a lot of classes that can make play interesting

>> No.77671243

>>77671096
>>77671202
Most games built on the same skeleton are compatible enough that you don't need to switch games. Just take the classes you want, and make the minor adjustments you need to.

>> No.77671272

>>77671129
Honest question: what difference does it make?
>it stops the players from cheating
don't play with cheaters
>it saves time because the ref can do it all in advance
Or you can just divide the work up so that it takes a fraction of the total time

Genuinely can't think of any other reasons why some might consider having the referee roll abilities is better

>> No.77671289

>>77671243
>and make the minor adjustments you need to.
Or you can just play a new game. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. People ought to branch out and try new systems, even if they're similar. Not sure why this is controversial.

>> No.77671293

>>77671272
I think he's just doing RAW, to a fault.

>> No.77671326

>>77671289
>Play a new game
>OSR
Dude, there are only like three games total here. The brand names amount to which bundle of house rules you like and that is not enough to expect people to buy new books over.

>> No.77671342

>>77671272
It's a mystery. Maybe the idea was that the ref rolls a whole shitload of statlines up in his spare time so the players can pick them out of a hat. It's certainly not mechanically interesting pedantry like Supplement 1 maybe allowing dwarves and halflings to be paladins (Dwarves can be Fighters, Lawful Fighters with a CHA of 17 can be Paladins, Paladin isn't a separate class so doesn't need to be listed as a permissible class option).

>> No.77671399

>>77671326
>buy
I see where the source of our disagreement lies.
I have played many games, but bought very few.

>> No.77671451

>>77671326
Shit's like $10 for a pdf, that's not going to break your bank. If some dude is like "I want to try a new system, is this any good?" and your first response is "well actually you can just take content from elsewhere and massage all these mechanics and throw a bunch of other homebrew in there and it basically gets you where you want" than you're not really helping them out.

>> No.77671487

Are people over LotFP as a ruleset, or has the OSR herd moved on?

>> No.77671797

>>77671487
Never enjoyed it personally

>> No.77671843

I'm going to use Scarlet Heroes + Mythic GM Emulator and lose myself in an old school universe for what will hopefully be the last few months of having to stay at home due to COVID-19.

What published campaign setting should I use? I mostly want comfy vibes.

>> No.77671871

>>77671843
>What published campaign setting should I use?
On a scale of Forgotten Realms to Wilderlands of High Fantasy, how much of the work do you want already done for you?

>> No.77671873

What work of fiction represents /osr/ games the best?

>> No.77671891

>>77671873
No single work of fiction represents OSR games because no single game of OSR is alike.

>> No.77671917

>>77671873
https://www.scrollsoflankhmar.com/oeuvre:fiction:shortstories:thejewelsintheforest

>> No.77671950

>>77671871
I'd like the world laid out in broad strokes and then to be able to play modules that have a bit more detail. Don't mind filling in details including who less prominent NPCs are for myself.

The Known World/Mystara came to mind first but I'm curious what else might be good.

>> No.77672057

Thoughts?

>> No.77672110

>>77672057
Looks fun. But I think it should be a percentile roll (i.e: 25% or something based on int) instead of natural 1.

>> No.77672129

>>77661019
>Hi friends, we've been having fun with board games, do you want me to run some old school D&D?
>Yes anon, that sounds cool. But does old school mean lots of math?
>No, its actually less fiddly than wotc stuff.
>Oh cool. I have a friend who will want to play too.
And then we played games.
Alternatively, I'm also prepped for the apocalypse with Scarlet Heroes and a really cool wife.

>> No.77672144

>>77672110
It's incremental tho. The 4th spell you cast fucks up between 1 and 4. I think it's simpler to just use a d20 in that case.

>> No.77672156

>>77672144
Oh, I missed that part. Then it's great as it is.

>> No.77672263

Who's used? FH&W? It's always struck me as pretty great, but sorely overlooked. It utilizes divisive things (Flesh & Grit, DC checks, Single Saves) but its an absolute TOME that seems to be an 'everything but the kitchen sink' book.

>> No.77672355

>>77671797
The rules, or adventures that they produce?

>> No.77672402

>>77671487
The ruleset has some portions that I really enjoy. I like the carrying capacity rules and maritime statistics. But the way that the books are written, the art, and the themes of the adventures themselves are a real turnoff. Other that the few rulings I like from the system, there are other systems that provide the exact same system, without all the edgy bullshit.

>> No.77672422

>>77671487
I think it's a great system, relatively speaking.

>> No.77672486

>>77672422
I constantly bounce back and forth between it and BFRPG. I'll usually use LotFP for historical settings and BFRPG for str8 old D&D romps, but at this point I've basically just frankensteined two together to have a class/race separate game with Specialists/Universal d6 adventure skills and slot based encumbrance.

>> No.77672565

>>77670376
me on the right

>> No.77672597

>>77671843
if you absolutely must use a premade setting then mystara can't be beat for comfy 80s fantasy

>> No.77673365

>>77672263
I bought a softcover and I've used it for a short but satisfactory campaign. We didn't play long enough to give it a serious stress test but I'll use it again. I like the modularity. It has lots of options but is straightforward if you just digest the basics. The take on divine magic is refreshing. And it's got a 1e feel without all the contradictory muck.
There's a few bits I don't care for, it's a bit bland, but it is solid and can handle some tweaking. Wants some tweaking really.

>> No.77673572

>>77672263
>Who's used? FH&W? It's always struck me as pretty great, but sorely overlooked. It utilizes divisive things (Flesh & Grit, DC checks, Single Saves) but its an absolute TOME that seems to be an 'everything but the kitchen sink' book.
I've owned a copy for years but since it's not a complete game(author still hasn't done their Monster Manual equivalent even though it's been the better part of a decade since FH&W came out) and it's a huge complicated thing by OSR standards overall I feel FH&W works better as something to mine from for other OSR games rather than something you run as the main rulebook

>> No.77673597

>>77671272
Simply put, players were not expected to own dice. Sure, six sided dice were common enough but those funky polyhedrons were weird and nobody owned them. If players don't roll the funky dice, why have them roll the normal ones either? It's just all or nothin' thinking, there's some logic to it.

>> No.77673606

Whenever I hear/read FOE, I see this guy. Dunno why though.

>> No.77673699

I'd post this in the next thread but I'll probably not be around for this one dying, so I'll post it here and merely hope someone else does it instead.

If you're reading this thread to find out what system is a good starting point for OSR play, the 1981 D&D Basic Set (along with the Expert set, often referred to together as B/X) is considered the gold standard by most of this thread. Read the original rulebooks to learn how to play, and you may find them to be good for playing with as well. If you find the original rulebooks unsatisfactory, or if you need physical copies, consider one of the following reworkings of the books (known as retro-clones):
Old School Essentials
>most accurate to the original books
>great format
>relatively expensive
Basic Fantasy RPG
>mild adjustments to rules
>decent formatting
>cheap

>> No.77673889

>>77633782
Might post this in the next thread
But how is dungeon crawling spelunking and stealth meant to change with the introduction of head mounted flashlights?

>> No.77673935

>>77673889
You can now have a shield, sword and a lightsource. Not much changes, its as good as a minor enchanted item (like, say, glowing sword +1)

>> No.77673971

>>77673572
Is there enough changes that a monster manual is really needed? I've always understood rulebook changes, but for almost any actual OSR game the original Monster Manuals (or Monstrosities / Tome of Horrors) has been fine: seems a waste of time to do up a full-on monster book full of the usual suspects you can get anywhere.

>> No.77673989

>>77671399
You are disgusting.

>> No.77674013

>>77674007
>>77674007
>>77674007

move

>> No.77675836

>>77661520
Roll d20 every exploration turn.
If you roll a 3 or less, encounter.
If your party is partially encumbered, slow, or noisy, add +1s until fit. This version provides more granularity, though 1 in 6 per turn is the standard and works the best.

>> No.77677598

>>77661842
Yes I use primarily old Grenadier, Ral Partha, Citadel and Otherworlds minis. The last time I had to make a counter was for the evil tree in Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. Dungeons are on a grid with 2.5D terrain. Wilderness and town encounters are played using wargaming terrian.

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