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[ERROR] No.76741433 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Why is Tolkien the blueprint for modern fantasy when pic related exists?

>> No.76741584

>>76741433
Never heard of it

>> No.76741615

>>76741433
The denizens of Amber and Shadow are too powerful to have a normal sort of immersive gaming in that world. It's why Amber diceless exists, which is really cool.
Also you really think normies can into alternate dimensions and mystical pathways?
lol just tell me about the heros that kill the ebil orcs

>> No.76741623

>>76741433
What's so good about it?

>> No.76741664

>>76741433
Tolkien is super easy to access and understand.

>> No.76741818

>>76741433
and why do shitty fantasy anime exist when someone could license this? all the characters are already overpowered anime protagonists, color-coded for easy recognition.

>> No.76742122

>>76741433
>implying normies could ever get into Amber

>> No.76742183

>>76741433
Never heard of the book or the author. That's why.

>> No.76742227

>>76741433
>Why is this younger less popular thing not the blueprint compared to older more popular thing
I don't know, OP. I think it's a mystery.

>> No.76742291

>>76741433
Zelazny wasn't going out of his way to recreate mythology, the blending worlds are a strange original concept in a way that Tolkien's lovingly crafted but largely derivative worldbuilding isn't.

>> No.76742484

>>76741623
there a tons of universe and amber is the true one all the other are a shadow of it. Its royal family can travel between world at will by walking, the further you go , the further the world change until you reach pure chaos.

for example the elder is passionate about war, so he participated in countless battle, sometime hopping to the closest universe to replay the battle with slight variation.

the book series is all about cloak and dagger between the royal family. Its really good.

>> No.76742557

>>76741433
Because Amber is a derivative of Tolkien.

>> No.76742644

>>76741433
I'm just gonna flatly ask you to delete this. Someone fucking up Zelazny's works with "movie adaptations" is not what I want.

>> No.76742848

>>76741433
I was under the impression that people who aren´t Royalty of Amber can´t planeswalk unless said royalty explicitly allows it?

They´re also basically slaves to those higher beings.

>> No.76742858

>>76741433
The Chronicles of Amber was published from 1970. The Lord of the Rings was published from 1954.

>> No.76742921

>>76742644
Movies, television shows, and video games won't ever change the books themselves.

Shelob is still just a big spider.

>> No.76742981

>>76742848
If they figure out the Pattern they could, maybe! Those of the court of Chaos could, as well, I think? Or, was that just Corwin's son?

>> No.76742983

>>76742858
Well we've had fifty years to do something with this series and all we have is an unfinished tabletop game.

>> No.76742997

>>76741433
i read that and didnt really like it
idk some isekai ass chump went through a labyrinth and became op local lord immediately

>> No.76743052

>>76741818
Because shit sells. Otaku don't want something good, they want to self-insert as someone who goes to a video game world and gets a harem.

>> No.76746732

>>76741433
Amber was hugely influential on modern fantasy writing, though. It was foundational for the Weird Fiction genre, and you can see many of its influences in urban fantasy as well.

The main reason it didn't become a more well-known "blueprint" setting (besides the fact that Tolkien came first) is because as a setting, Amber's vast, anything-goes multiverse is much more ethereal and freeform than the detailed, relatively grounded mythology of Middle Earth. Middle Earth was much easier to systematize into RPG, and that helped pave the way for a million permutations of its tropes, further solidifying its position as the "default" setting.

>> No.76748052

>>76741433
There is nothing appealing about Amber.

>> No.76748075

>>76742983
Who made the tabletop game?

>> No.76748126

>>76741433
Because Amber sucks. It's just Corwin blathering on for five books, and then Merlin takes over for the next round.

>> No.76748149

>>76741664
I feel like that falls apart the minute you even peel back the smallest bit of the central conflict to reveal all the ultra-dense history and cosmology. It's only easy to access if your understanding of it is completely superficial.

>> No.76748998

>>76748149
Its easy to have a shallow and superficial understanding of. That's all you need to be the most popular thing. For what its worth, its probably falling by the wayside to GoT and Harry Potter.

>> No.76749014

>>76742921
> Shelob is still just a big spider.
Clearly you didn't read the books.

>> No.76749097

>>76741433
>implying Tolkien is the blueprint for modern fantasy
D&D is the blueprint for modern fantasy.

>> No.76749127

>>76741433
Eww thanks now i'm remembering Amber Diceless RP and all the fucking fags who played it.

>> No.76749583

Lots of stuff from Amber finds its way into GURPS. GURPS sucks big ass though.

Zelazny characters all have their own rules. I forget the exact line, but Merlin explains that basically all sorcery idiosyncratic- it doesn’t work the same for everyone. All the characters have a kind of internal logic for their powers but it doesn’t lend itself to a simple game. Plus all Zelazny protagonists are ridiculously powerful, not merely existing in their worlds but actively shaping them. Corwin literally reorders the multiverse.

>> No.76749713

>>76749583
I guess the closest that would mirror that kind of world is Mage honestly.

>> No.76751232

>>76741433
BASED

>> No.76751422

>>76741433
You could easily say that Tolkien is merely one shadow.

>> No.76751434

>>76742981
A normal can't walk the pattern. They might be able to do the logrus, but not the pattern which is stronger and more powerful.

>> No.76751441

>>76742983
What was unfinished about it? I have it and the supplement, don't need anything else. Played it too, works fine, especially if you have a good GM.

>> No.76751534

>>76751441
I thought they had wanted to do more supplements?

>> No.76751536

>>76741433
*blocks their path*

>> No.76751680

>>76751536
Isn't this the "eat rocks, do magic" guy?

>> No.76752254

>>76741818
Zelazny in general wrote a lot of stuff that's basically prototypical action anime. Just read Creatures of Light and Darkness and there was a lot of it there just as there was in Lord of Light.

>> No.76752272

I want to delve into Zelazny's influences because Amber is really out there for a 70s sci-fantasy. The infinite layers of reality, how the princes of amber travel through them, the pattern, magic, shadow...shit is pretty wild. Usually you're in luck if you find one unusual premise in a setting, let alone about 20.

>> No.76752911

>>76741433
Lord of the Rings movies
Whenever you think "why is x thing popular and not y?" Just think about whatever has the bigger media presense.
Hint: It doesn't have a media presence because it's popular, but the other way around.

>> No.76753193

>>76741433
>modern fantasy
>anything like tolkien
There are races with same names, that's about it.

>> No.76755752

>>76751680
Metal, but yes.

>> No.76755856

>>76752254

Not even close. Both lean heavily on the mythology of the Hindu and Egyptian cultures.

>> No.76757886

>>76751680
It's the guys book, who explains every bit of logic behind every bit of fiction in his works.

>> No.76757910

>>76752911
Lord of the Rings was the blueprint for modern fantasy for at least 30 years before the live-action movies.

>> No.76757933

>>76742644
There was a nine princes in amber tv series licensed by Sky TV.
It's been radio silent for like six years now though.

>> No.76757958

>>76752272
If you think Amber is out there, try Lord of Light.
>1967

>> No.76757983

I only read the first two books of Amber, but it was kinda meh. Setting has a few cool places, but you can't really exist as an adventurer in it when you have godlike nobles who just do whatever they want.

>> No.76757993

>>76741433
Because I've never heard of it. Also
>>>/lit/
Fuck off.

>> No.76758094

>>76757983
It changes after the first two books, initial plot of "Eric >:( resolved. Scope scope changes and the other end of the black road takes the focus.
After five books, it switches to Corwin's son and his mother's family. Notable because the narration style changes palpably and a lot of people find it jarring to go from one protagonist to another who sounds substantially different.

>> No.76758245

>>76741433
Tolkien is not the blueprint of modern fantasy.
Modern sword & sorcery's blueprint is actually Leiber, Howard and Anderson but none of them were a British college professor belonging to an academic elite, still Tolkien did became popular around the same time a bootleg edition of the Lord of the Ring was published in some universities in the 70s.
Of course Gen Z and Millennial gamers have no fucking idea about this as they are way too hooked to fucking anime and video games to really care about literature.
Yes, Gary did introduce elements of the Middle-Earth in D&D but he did because that was the trend around the time, although the spirit of the game is inherit from the pulp fantasy and sword & sorcery of the three authors I did mention, otherwise Gary wouldn't had bothered with the Appendix N.

>> No.76759439

>>76741433
Because it makes a shitty template for adventure as anything other than playing semi-mythical god-kings. Amber Diceless is great. But it has to start with the entire ruling family and the players have to be from it.

>>76741584
>>76742183
>>76757993
You don't belong on /tg/. Get off your computer, read a fuckng book, and then you can come back. Until then you aren't wanted here.

>> No.76760238

>>76757958

Lord of Light felt more grounded than Amber. Some reviews compared it to Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, but Lord of Light was so much more straightforward that I was wondering if the reviewer had even read the book.

>> No.76760341

>>76758245
>British college professor belonging to an academic elite
How is that relevant at all?

>> No.76760399

>>76760238
Really? Wild. Amber feels pretty standard fantasy- not run of the mill, but nothing crazy. Lord of Light feels like opium-driven capital-L Literature.

>> No.76760622

>>76748998
It was definitely doing so, but both of those IPs are in the process of dying. Which is good, especially for Harry Potter since it basically only has that first layer with no depth

>> No.76762438

>>76748052
Go away.

>> No.76762453

>>76748126
Go away also.

>> No.76762495

>>76749097
DnD came from Tolkien and Vance, for the most part. No matter what GG claimed.

>D&D is the blueprint for modern fantasy.
What a simp.

>> No.76762540

>>76758245
I'll give you Howard. Leiber's stories are written badly, with bad characters. Period. Anderson did not build the same amount or kind of back story that Tolkien did.

>> No.76763891

>>76741433
That's like asking why Deep Purple are so good when the riff from Smoke On The Water is so simple. Sure it's simple. Anyone could have done it. But who did? Deep fucking Purple, that's who.

>> No.76766789

It's not just the multiverse thing or the cosmology thing that throws people. Normies could wrap their heads around all of that at a kind of surface level. What gets people about Zelazny is that his works paint a picture of the ugly nitty gritty of human behavior that normies find deeply fucking unsettling.

>> No.76766806

>>76762495
Apart from some of the races, D&D has very, very little in common with Tolkien. And even the races are the same in name only, except for halflings.

>> No.76766999

>>76760399
With Lord of Light you can feel the things he was drawing from, so while it's exotic and unusual, it's much more grounded than New Sun, which gets very weird.

I do prefer Lord of Light though. Weirdness isn't enough, and Wolfe leans way too much on it in his stuff.

>> No.76767031

>>76741433
Why would anyone care about this blander MtG setting you're shilling?

>> No.76767170

>>76767031
>I have no anus and I must shit: the post

>> No.76767206

>>76741433
D&D is blueprint for modern fantasy. Most of the writers working in the genre evidently never read Tolkien, or just skimmed through his books.

>> No.76767274

>>76767206
>Most of the writers working in the genre evidently never read
Ftfy

>> No.76767444

I'm reading through the first book now. Pretty good so far. Corwin is starting to regain his vision

>> No.76767490

So is this thread going to devolve into fucks just talking about the book because they can't find anywhere else while nothing /tg/ related comes of it because there is little to translate from the books to games outside of "Character X did Y and I thought it was cool"?

>> No.76767895

>>76767490
There is a game based off of the series

>> No.76767949

>>76767895
And the reality-hopping is perfect for a ttrpg setting

>> No.76767981

>>76741433
I found the books boring and the characters unlikeable.

>> No.76767993

>>76748126
Pretty much this.

>> No.76768007

>>76767895
The game is interesting.
I enjoyed the game more than the books.
I suppose I had a better GM than Selazny was an author.

>> No.76768226

>>76749583
That Amber doesn't have a GURPS 3e supplement is criminal

>> No.76768287

>>76768226
Or at the very least, highly peculiar.

>> No.76768296

>>76741433
Amber is great, my favourite books as a child. My Father had them all, but for whatever reason they weren't organised on the bookshelves so I'd spend afternoons trying to find the next books and then going through the many storage boxes of books we had looking for the next one. I remember once I got so frustrated I read two books out of order only to find the one I was looking for between some Ludlum stories.

I need to reread that, 10 year old me thought this was vastly better than Tolkein.

>> No.76768708

>>76741433
Most of our high school friend group read it, some played the RPG, and I had the luck of playing with Erick Wujcik as GM.

I think arguably D&D owes as much to Zelazny as it does to Vance; Vance gets mentioned a lot for the "Vancian Magic" game mechanic in D&D, but that just happens to be a catchy name. Themes like the multiverse, or law vs. chaos, might owe much to Amber (though admittedly probably more to Moorcock - Elric was published before Amber).

I'd be interesting to map out the genealogy of those ideas.

>>76767206
>Most of the writers working in the genre evidently never read Tolkien, or just skimmed through his books.
No way. Millions of people have read Tolkien, and writers read more than most people. You're just making shit up because you don't like their writing.

>> No.76768927

>>76741584
read more

>> No.76768937

>>76748998
>For what its worth, its probably falling by the wayside to GoT and Harry Potter.
Those two are mere fads.

>> No.76768952

>>76758245
>Of course Gen Z and Millennial gamers have no fucking idea about this as they are way too hooked to fucking anime and video games to really care about literature.
They care about GoT, though, which was influenced heavily by Amber.

>> No.76768963

>>76768708
It's definitely more to Moorcock, then Amber, but both are incredibly influential works within the fantasy genre.

>> No.76769056

>>76768708
>No way. Millions of people have read Tolkien, and writers read more than most people.

I think a good case in point would be The Sword of Shannara series. It was basically started out as being to LotR what Twilight was to Mormon myths, yet it eventually sunk down to the level of The Dying Earth when it was revealed that it´s been a postapoc setting all along.

So even the people who obviously and deliberately just wrote terrible fanfic on LotR could not help getting into line with Jack Vance´s fantasy works. While LotR existed as a reference point, in actual application Jack Vance and the more general style of fantastic pulp tales were what ended up being imitated.

>> No.76769540

>>76769056
Wait, are you arguing that Vance influenced writers more than Tolkien (which I could believe, tho my money would still be on Tolkien being the bigger influence for most), or that there is a significant portion of fantasy writers who haven't read Tolkien (which I still think is hogwash)?

I'm not sure how much of it is "imitating Vance", and how much is "just not as good at world-building/writing as Tolkien". I haven't read that particular book, and it's been a decade or two since I last read some Vance, so I don't know.

>> No.76769626

>>76769540
Tolkien´s work exists as a reference point, but in practical application it`s clearly Vance and his fellow *fantastic stories*-style pulp that dominates and defines the genre and related media.

It´s like how records of Arthurian novels and legends exist, but people generally know about them through Fate or the 80s "Excalibur" movie.

>> No.76771434

>>76760341
Allow me to introduce you to a concept which has been present in theory of literature historiography for a while:
The Science-fiction/fantasy ghetto.
Back before escapist/speculative fiction could start franchises worth a gorillion dollars, around the first half of the 20th century and part of the second half, no matter which were your curriculum, if you wrote science-fiction or sword & sorcery you were basically writing the equivalent of porn and automatically you were labeled a hack or worse. Tolkien status as a prestigious linguist and medievalist did help to not suffer such ostracism although many saw The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings in the academic world as "eccentricities", byproducts of an intellectual exercise (in this case the creation of languages), this did help his work to sell among the higher strata of society just for the novelty of it in the case of LotR or just for the sake of nostalgia if they did read The Hobbit back in the 30s. Now, it wasn't until the 70s when Tolkien's work became a true best-seller and it was due mostly the counter-culture of the moment (very linked to the New Age) and a bootleg edition (Tolkien did refuse to have the Lord of the Rings published in anything less than expensive hard back editions) that made it accessible to students in many universities as it was amusing to read such escapist work from a very well respected scholar that was also a war veteran which PSTD made him develop a rabid technophobia.

>> No.76771535

>>76771434
>Tolkien became popular because the US didn´t accept non-US passport holder´s IP rights until the early 80s.

Hilarious.

>> No.76772966

>>76771434
In other words, fuck the academics and fuck the gatekeepers.

>> No.76775855

>>76771434
thanks tvtropes

>> No.76776526

Figure this is the best thread to ask in. I'm in the mood for a good fantasy adventure story, wizards doing cool magic shit optional. Any recommendations are welcomed

>> No.76777893

>>76776526
Gene Wolfe's Wizard Knight.

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