[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / g / ic / jp / lit / sci / tg / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports / report a bug ] [ 4plebs / archived.moe / rbt ]

/vt/ is now archived.Become a Patron!

/tg/ - Traditional Games

View post   

[ Toggle deleted replies ]
File: 914 KB, 928x877, 1541132337634.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
75494563 No.75494563 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Is it safe to say that the mechanics of any game are the worst part of RPGs?

>> No.75494578
File: 241 KB, 400x550, 4e_Players_Handbook.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Have you tried playing 4e?

>> No.75494581

If that were true people would just play freeform.

>> No.75494591
File: 190 KB, 983x1200, pathfinder-2e.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


Have you tried playing Pathfinder 2e?

>> No.75494605

I can see the merit of the question as the most things one would complain about in an RPG are the mechanics but they're also a good thing that can be praised.

>> No.75494773

As much as I prefer a narrative focus and a focus on the collective storytelling aspect, without mechanics to support them in some way >>75494581 is right. Personally, the way I see it is that combat should be very mechanically sound with a lot of options and things to do whereas anything outside of combat should only involve dice when the outcome of something is in question; if the players can figure out a way that's clever and will work without question then I as a Gm want to reward their ingenuity and as a player I want mi ingenuity rewarded. The key is to make sure that not EVERY problem can be gotten around with clever thinking; sometimes you have to take a risk and I wouldn't want otherwise on either side of the table.

>> No.75494821

Kinda, but without mechanics we may as well play knights at the public playground.

>> No.75495023

No, stupid theater shit is

>> No.75495207

The problem with mechanics is they're often designed by retards who love shit like making long feat lists full of trash and thinking the "combat guy/noncombat guy/guy who can do everything but only if he rests a lot" trinity is good design

>> No.75495465


No the people you play it with are.

>> No.75495865

I don't think you'll be physically attacked for it, but the last 3 RPGs I bought (Firefly, Fragged Empires and Blades in the Dark), I bought only for their mechanics, to explore them.

And I assure you that Fragged Empires has awesome core mechanics.... and that's it.

>> No.75495874

Only the bad ones.

>> No.75495895

No. Or at least not for people who can do basic math.

>> No.75495938

Math is gay though

>> No.75495962
File: 11 KB, 261x191, 5f0c3e22.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Have you tried fucking yourself with a rusty rebar each time you self-reply to yourself with this spam?

>> No.75495965

>Implying they don't.
New or just American, thinking DnD is all that is? Or semi-new and thinking people are only allowed to play published stuff?

>> No.75496010

>the math non-argument
Yes anon, we all know that if a game has shit-tier mechanics and people call it out on this, that's simply because they are innumerate, and not the fault of the shit-tier mechanics being god-awful.
There is such a guy in my country, who released his meme system in early 90s, which was infamous for shit like statting a single ant and having over 30 different statistics (but no substats), vast majority of them being used for a single thing or how armour when being hit was counted from a delta equation and other, equally redundant design elements. And whenever anyone, ever, to this very day, points out his mechanics are just bad and don't work in most cases, he goes on a lenghty rants during conventions or his blog, which all can be summed up in "HURR YOU DON'T KNOW MATH DURR".
To which the standard reply of the crowd is usually pointing all the blatant math mistakes he made in the mechanics and how he apparently doesn't even know multiplication table, given the results presented in-game and never fixed over the future re-releases (unlike typos).

So yeah, if your game is being called out for having shit mechanics, that means it's more likely to have shit mechanics, rather than everyone who ever played it struggling with math.

>> No.75496848

Except half the time people complain about "number bloat" or "too many modifiers" they are literally complaining about finding it too difficult to add four single digit numbers. Literal elementary school material is too much effort for these people.

>> No.75496875
File: 71 KB, 500x333, Szyndler.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

You're talking about pic related, aren't you?

Number bloat is a genuine issue anon, what the fuck? And it has nothing to do with "too hard math", but bad game design that leads to enemies working as damage sponges. Dunno, ever heard about the exotic game of Dungeons & Dragons?

>> No.75496917

>retard speaks
Look man, you've tried real hard to be a faggot, and congrats, but how about you try to understand games instead of trying to invent dumbass pseudo-reasons to justify your retard hate for D&D?

>> No.75497146

Not him, but I don't have the full on hateboner for DND people here have and the fact of the matter is that at the very least 5e has a terrible problem with bloated HP. Now, this problem wouldn't exist if AC was a saving throw instead of a flat to-hit number; if players rolled contested checks to hit enemies and to avoid getting hit, both sides would get hit more often and thus lose HP faster so the problem wouldn't be an issue. Alternatively, reduce the hit dice for every class by 1 tier (i.e. Wizards now have a D4 and barbarians now have a d10, everyone else is bumped down one) and make the amount of HP you get on level up only equal to your CON mod (minimum +1 HP). If you did that, the fact high AC at early levels means that it becomes happy slaps won't matter because it turns into rocket tag.

Combat is my least favorite part of TTRPGs, but I can stomach it if it doesn't take an hour or longer to do like 5e's does beyond level 3. Most systems I play have combat that is over in 5 rounds or less. HP values are lower, damage is higher, and they use contested checks and armor that reduces damage taken to a minimum of 1 so you're ALWAYS taking at least 1 damage, and with a pool of HP that doesn't get above around 25-30 at the absolute maximum on average (there an be outliers if you build for it) at worst you're in for a bit of a slog, provided all rolls go to shit.

D&D has an HP bloat problem, and that's fine because all it takes is some very basic houserules and it's not a problem anymore.

>> No.75497206

Here is a tip:
I don't have a problem with D&D at all. I'm just pointing that the most popular game out there is infamous for HP bloat, something that's an integral part of its desing, kept across few editions. And you are instantly moving the goalpost about how I supposedly hate D&D.
Have you tried having a discussion for a change, rather than acting like a hungry chimp?

>> No.75497253

HP bloat is what you're referring to and it's a separate issue from number bloat. HP bloat is when damage doesn't match up well with hit points causing combats to take too long.

Things that aren't HP bloat include:
>Having high HP numbers in general
If your enemies have 1325 hp in an encounter but the players do 736 damage in a round, there is no HP bloat, as the damage values match up to the HP values in a reasonable ratio.
>Poor encounter design
If a module or DM puts monsters above the expected amount in an encounter, that is not HP bloat, because you're not following the guidelines the system laid out for you.
>Players failing to meet basic assumptions of the system
If your role in the party is assumed to be a primary source of eliminating enemies, and you decide to take a bunch of utility options at the cost of your general effectiveness at what you're supposed to be doing, that is not HP bloat, that's your fault.

>> No.75497402

Yes, they are pretty much always bad, but without it it's just playing pretend so we kinda have to live with it, that's why most people prefer more artificial and simplistic games, you can still create stuff in the midst of the numbers, even here in /tg/ where everyone pretends to be a serious "crunch-lover" player you can see that most people really playing stuff use d&d 5, osr or minimalist systems

>> No.75497543

Depends on the game honestly. Storytelling based systems? Easily.

Even going to say this about FLOW from my beloved Stalker: The Scifi RPG.

>> No.75497655

Honestly, I never understood why all sort of "storytelling" systems are so insistant on still having some complex mechanics in them. FATE was always confusing to me. You could simply give characters three traits at the game start and be done with it. Instead, it still has skill system, still uses HP, still has separate counter for situational bonuses and worst of all, it has all those invocations, aspects and other bullshit that further adds numbers...
... so are we playing a storytell, or just a poorly designed simulation? And I saw a whole lot of people that ended up running FATE as if it was a simulation, which was further confusing.
It's like people who make those games are trying in the same time to create a freeform, but in the same time try to appeal to people that play games based on numbers and extensive mechanical structure, ultimately pleasing nobody

>> No.75497669

Yes, especially [RPG I don't like]. What a shitheap [RPG I don't like] is.

>> No.75497786

>Honestly, I never understood why all sort of "storytelling" systems are so insistant on still having some complex mechanics in them. FATE was always confusing to me

I think it's just all there to give the illusion to the players that they're playing a game and not there to act out their part in a living, modular story. I could just be completely wrong though but playing pretend without some kind of gameplay element, faux or otherwise, to it would just be seen as childish moreso than usual when you have 20-30 somethings playing a literal game of pretend that adolescents play in school

>> No.75497949

>t.Stacy, failed basic math

>> No.75498096
File: 9 KB, 236x271, 509bc397408fd2e692aa2ef1706c2779.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I never bought a single game book in my life, so I can't speak about the monetary investment into this. I do, however, play a whole lot of Vallheru, ever since there is Vallheru, so for me game of pretend without any rules whatsoever beyond "define your character at the start and go with it" are an abolute norm, with everything just happening organically as the game plays. Then I made the mistake of looking into what passes as "tabletop RPG that focuses on story" and they all suffer from the same "Here is your crunch, man! This is going to enchance your game!"
How exactly keeping track of numerical advantages to apply them like some sort of currency is making the experience of a freeform better? I mean I'm doing this shit for 15 years and it works perfectly fine without such elements, so... why?
Ironically, a native game for a story-heavy gameplay, is a 10 pages long guide on how to play it, with basic outlines of what to do and how to approach the game, with ZERO mechanics. And it's joked within its fandom that it was actually the scheme of someone from the Postal Service to make people send letters again ("peak immersion" advised by that game is achieved by sending actual letters, along with waiting until the Post delivers them). And the game cost a pocket change, too (still pirated it anyway).

>> No.75498122

That’s extreme and I can do the reverse to you. Just play chess bro.

>> No.75498175

>to it would just be seen as childish moreso than usual when you have 20-30 somethings playing a literal game of pretend that adolescents play in school
Stop being insecure bro. If you aren’t repulsive looking and you are also confident in what you do, no one will care, girls will not care.

>> No.75498213

If you seriously think that, you're the problem.

>> No.75498264

>If you aren’t repulsive looking and you are also confident in what you do, no one will care, girls will not care.
Confidence is all that matters - you can be repulsive and thing will still work out if you aren't insecure faggot afraid of own shadow.

t. 3/10 guy with a broken nose

>> No.75498282


>> No.75498298

Only if you don't actually like table top games. If that is the case you can see yourself out.
Go start some girl's club if you want to just sit around with your friends and gossip. The rest of us are here to play the game.

>> No.75498318

Imagine being into traditional games, while being both a self-centered prick and having confidence issues or scared of being taken for a childish person.
I bet you wanted half of your life to participate in some LARP event, but were too big pussy, being too afraid of what some random people would think about you, in some insane delusion that they give a single fuck about you in the first place

This is you:

>> No.75498334
File: 66 KB, 720x478, 1577506909405.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Is it safe to say that the mechanics of any game are the worst part of RPGs?
No, the reality is that people who are too dumb or too lazy to learn the rules will turn any RPG into a shit show.

Mechanics are just rules.

RPG's are games
Name one game that doesn't have rules?

>> No.75498388
File: 227 KB, 340x390, Boundless_Ambition_SWDA.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

All I did was try to explain why a story-centric RPG might have some unnecessary crunch. Don't take everything you read as a personal attack

>> No.75498404

>Name one game that doesn't have rules?


>> No.75498446

This seems awkwardly personal like you are both venting a personal frustration and projecting your inadequacies onto others.
Sort your shit out m8.

>> No.75498448
File: 81 KB, 800x531, 1455735972493.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Fine, then let's skip from you to people that behave in the way you described.
Now I guess we are both happy

>> No.75498471

I've seen enough groups made from people "awkwarded" by any level of roleplaying involved to vent this out. And I don't mean doing voices or shit like that, but being weirded out by simply making decisions in-character.
Why would you play a game of pretending to be someone else, if you are too big pussy to do so in the first place, and in situation that involves not only people that you know and are friends with, but doing exactly that thing already? Takes to be mental.

>> No.75498472

Calvinball has rules, dipshit.

>> No.75498473

There's more to psychology than a 101 course, stop reading between the lines, ain't nothing there but text

>> No.75498475

There is only ONE PERMANENT RULE in Calvinball: players cannot play it the same way twice.

I rest my case.

>> No.75498497
File: 68 KB, 1200x630, Little Big Shrug.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Freeform, which happens to be part of this very hobby. Rules in the sense of crunch are completely absent and rules as "how do we even play this" are kept to bare minimum, agreed at the game start in ad-hoc fashion.

>> No.75498508

and that text speaks volumes.

>> No.75498519
File: 1.43 MB, 400x225, image0-4.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

If you felt attacked, I'm not sorry

>> No.75498527
File: 21 KB, 654x469, OHNO.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.75498532

>t. Psych freshman
Enjoy your stay, I guarantee you're going to switch to Arts by the end of the semester

>> No.75498546

>Everything that has mechanics is DnD

>> No.75498555

I don't feel attacked. I'm not even the same anon.
Why would I move away from Quantum Theory?

>> No.75498561

>Reading comprehension: None

>> No.75498568

>N-no, I'm a d-different anon
Sure you are.

>> No.75498587

>agreed at the game start in ad-hoc fashion.
I'm usually not the sort of person who believes in typecasting a particular game like "snow flakes who can't follow rules play freeform"
But you are so flakey that you can't admit that even your "free form" shit has rules.

>> No.75498618

Just play pretend story time with your pink-haired friends if you want to be faggots and empowered queens with no real challenge. Mechanics are what make it an actual game and not a wank fest. I mean you could also just masturbate and save yourself a lot of time for a lot better end result.

>> No.75498682

Confirmed for being American. Nobody else would struggle with such a simple question

>> No.75498703

... what?
You can play freeform without any rules whatsoever. Not even any sort of starting agreement, hence the notion of them being ad-hoc.
And you are the exact person who only thinks in terms of typecasting, but m'kay.

>> No.75498705

I mean, look at Call of Cthulhu.

You can literally go hours playing CoC without making a single dice roll.

>> No.75498780

Lad, if you get any more triggered we'll have to send you to tumblr.
Deep breath, everything's going to be ok.

>> No.75498815

>Rules in the sense of crunch are completely absent
Crunch is another word for rules. It has the same definition.
You literally stated "Rules in the sense of RULES are completely absent"

>rules as "how do we even play this" are kept to bare minimum
This is you clearly stating that your Freeform game has rules. Which proves my point that all games have rules or its not a game.

>> No.75498833
File: 54 KB, 650x650, 1573573311234.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>the game is the worst part of the game.

>> No.75498853

>Crunch is another word for rules. It has the same definition.
Ntayart, but why are you purposefully obtuse?
Or this is just some sort of "HA! I TOLD HIM!" type of mentality a 5 yo displays? I mean sure, freeform is governed by rules, but going the extra mile to pretend crunch, the short-hand for "gameplay mechanics in numeral values" is meaning the exact same as "rules" is kind of retarded

>> No.75498859

Freeform turns into "My infinity is stronger than your infinity" and whining when someone even gets sneezed on. I remember one vampire-centric modern RP I was in where a meeting was to be held within my company's top floor, which was always described as having a black dome on top.

I cleared it with the admins, the dome was black-stained glass. I cleared it ICly with my allies, the dome was black-stained glass. What else did I clear with them? The fact that I had it rigged to completely shatter at the press of a button which would, according to the rules of the RP, burn all of us alive in the sunlight. Meeting takes place, and I tell them that they are to immediately transfer a sizable chunk of their wealth to me with a smile on their faces as I was in hefty debt to a major antagonist played by the admin, and if I didn't get that money I would be nailed to a wall facing east.

They of course refused, and I said "Oh well" and hit the switch, the dome shatters into dust like a rupert drop. The absolute torrent of bitching that ensued and multiple attempts at retcons and outright lies was ridiculous. It ended in two bans and a ragequit. Started to fall apart after that. Thing is, they were perfectly entitled to not show up and they knew I was a serious backstabber

>> No.75498864


If the mechanics are the BEST part of an RPG, you've basically made a board game

>> No.75498868

t. never played anything at all, still triggered anyway

That's bad for your health, man, particularly your liver. Stop hurting yourself.

>> No.75498886

>t. never actually saw freeform on his eyes
It's always amazing to reach actual powergamers, busy collecting numbers, bitching how freeform is nothing but wankfest about OP characters.
I mean shit man, guess CoC is the biggest collection of trippy powergamers in existence

>> No.75498913

Yikes incel.

>> No.75498914

No...Crunch is just slang for rules. You need to stop pretending you know about TTRPG's when you only source of information comes from /tg/.
Look it up.

>> No.75498939
File: 64 KB, 556x527, gross.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I'm gonna bet a fiver you spend half a day on making optimal build for your character to be invincible in the upcoming campaign and see absolutely nothing wrong with that, while chimping out about non-existing boogeyman from a made-up story

>> No.75498946

Your first example is exactly what bloat is. The numbers add no meaningful difference.

>> No.75498960

Fork over the fiver, my last character was a mute barbarian who had a strict policy against taking lives.

>> No.75498970

>Or this is just some sort of type of mentality a 5 yo displays?
You've just described freeform games, retard.

>> No.75498971

>I just made this up myself!
Reminder that if you are using semantics to try to prove your point, you have no arguments left whatsoever.

>> No.75499068

>"snow flakes who can't follow rules play freeform"
Thanks for proving me right..You can't even learn the definition of rules / crunch never mind the rules of a game.

>> No.75499182

It's fighting. Fighting is what sucks in RPGs, regardless of the system or so on. You spend ages building up to fights, and the mechanics are easy, roll this against that to do this, but when you come to a fight, what should be high-paced and frantic in tone, everything slows down and you know for the next thirty minutes to an hour or so, you're going to be grinding through however many enenmies, and it always takes ages no matter how experienced the group is, especially if you try to make it engaging becuase otherwise players just blow through the fight easily. Even allowing enemies to disnegage and run doesn't help because it'll take a huge chunk of your session just to get up to that point.

So no, it's not the mechanics. Mechanics are fine. It's the damn fights that drag down every single RPG I've played.

>> No.75499237

Ask a man how his day was. Answe is usually something along the lines of
>It was alright.

Ask a woman how her day was.
>words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words

>> No.75499396

>using semantics
"play acting" with no rules is called "Improvisation" or simply Improv...genius.
Debating semantics is all you have been doing to desperately claim that freeform is somehow a game that doesn't have rules.
If freeform doesn't have rules then its not a game. Its just improv

>> No.75499475

The reason we keep is down to it was alright is precisely because anything with a higher vocabulary is met with "incel"

>> No.75499488

>you ask someone how was their day
>they reply you how their day went
>you get mad for some reason
Why are you even asking if you don't want the answer?

>> No.75500005

Even in isolation you're wrong. Well, first off now you are actually talking about "number bloat" again which is the ridiculous claim that big numbers in RPGs are always bad. What do you think the appeal is in the large, variable numbers of JRPGs? The answer is incredibly simple, in that big numbers simply give off the appearance that big things are happening. It doesn't have to work for you, but the truth of the matter is that is does work for a very large demographic.
But even then, systems are systems, you never take their parts in isolation. A gear does nothing if it isn't being rotated by something. Most systems have very good use for large numbers as part of a progression system. "Number go up" is the simplest and most surefire way to convey to a player that their character and the threats they face are more powerful than before. If by level 1 you are facing 10 hp orcs and you have 30, then if by level 30 you have 300 hp you have simple and effective proof that you are many times more powerful in at least one metric than before.

>> No.75500223

>Contested checks make more hits happen
That's literally not true. If you have a >50% hit rate against a target number, the equivalent contested check (e.g. changing 12 AC to 1d20+2) makes you less likely to hit.

+8 attack roll vs 14 flat target, 75% chance of hit: https://anydice.com/program/1e5fc
+8 attack roll vs +4 opposed roll, 70% chance of hit: https://anydice.com/program/1e5fd

>> No.75500699
File: 715 KB, 260x161, giphy3.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

So which D&D edition do you hate the most?
Every /tg/ thread or argument on the myth of "HP or Numbers Bloat" only comes from those Anons who hate D&D.

>> No.75500728

Are you retarded or just dumb?

>> No.75500789 [DELETED] 

He's an Angloid. They have their weird small-talk thing: they ask questions, without really wanting to get an answer, then get butthurt when people answer their questions, in some insane idea that asking those questions is a polite thing to do. It never occured to them on a fucking culture-wide range that it's not only pointless, but you shouldn't be asking questions if you don't care about the answer, because THAT is the inpolite part of it.

>> No.75502501

I'm speaking from experience, though to be absolutely fair the systems where defense checks exist are d6 pool systems which are better than d20 anyway.

I've played one too many games of 5e where everyone has 18+ AC and it just becomes a game of "you miss" "They miss". At the very least AC should be something more like 5 + DEX base and armor should be nerfed to shit then.

>> No.75502587

If someone isplaying entirely for the mechanics to the point where they view roleplaying to be a detriment I would suggest something akin to a hex and chit wargame. If someone considers mechanics the worst part of an rpg they should just freeform because all the rules are what they hate.

>> No.75503084

That would be true if we were talking about Dungeon World.

>> No.75503146

Probably D&D 5e because it just has no specific appeal. There's no game I would ever want to run or play in where I would say, "Yes D&D 5e is the best system I can use for this." Still even 5e doesn't actually have hp bloat, I've played it enough to confidently say that is not one of my issues with it.

>> No.75503247


No, the subcultures that grow up around specific RPGs, those are far fucking worse.

Granted, not mid 90s WoD LARP bad, but still pretty fucking bad when encountering a die hard system dogmatic.

Also, 5e is not the worst for this, PbtA is by far the worst.

>> No.75503535

No, and if you genuinely believed that, you wouldn't spend any time playing RPGs.

>> No.75503641

>and they all suffer from the same "Here is your crunch, man! This is going to enchance your game!"
It does enhance the game. You need rules for a game, retard.
Also there's a bunch of people who never grew up beyond middle school playgrounds so you need a ruleset to reign them in from crying when you tell them their shield that can block anything and unblockable sword combo is dumb bullshit.

>> No.75503843

>Still even 5e doesn't actually have hp bloat
Then you are either using creatures far above the players' CR or they have shitty armor and/or are all playing d6 hit die classes. Once you hit 5th level or higher with d8 or higher classes you're pushing 100 HP with enough CON and/or good rolls if you do that sort of thing. 100 HP with 20+ AC at level 5-6 is ridiculous and borderline unplayable garbage. Every other system I've played either doesn't use HP (Star Wars D6) or the HP values are much, much lower at their maximum (sitting around 30 on average, with how armor works in those systems you're basically looking at players/npcs dealing around 10 damage per round on average, the highest I've ever seen with good rolls and the right stuff on the character sheet is around 30 damage in a single hit). Alternatively, high HP but incredibly brutal damage. Like, we're talking 30+ damage on average per attack. If 5e characters were able to consistently deal 30+ damage per attack, combat wouldn't take an hour or longer per encounter.

>> No.75504312

What are you talking about, you fucking nonce? That’s such an outdated stereotype I can only assume you based all your worldly wisdom on 80s era movies. Twat.

>> No.75504397

>missing the point this hard
you mean to tell us that you actually expect any other answer to "how are you doing" than "i'm okay"?

>> No.75504871
File: 2 KB, 125x124, 1546755024573.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I'm just not good at maths
I'd love to run games and DM shit because I like coming up with encounters and situations for players to end up in but fuck me I can't do quick maths to save my life and trying to remember all the mechanics involved makes me sweat

>> No.75505028

Fuck me, the worst and best part of any rpg are the other players.
Of you have a group that knows what they want, can compromise, play as protagonist, secondary protagonist and support character and can pick up a narrative thread without dropping a boat load of spaghetti

Then even fatal can be a engaging and fun experience.

But currently I'm playing with snarky assholes, where everybody things his version is the best and will die defending it. Play wildly inconsistent characters and can't stop belittling each other.

It breaks my heart

>> No.75505138

Try run something with less math and trust your players to keep track of their shit.
Shadow of the demon lord is pretty easy, as is Lancer and the phb is free, Heroquest is also a System that profits immensely from it's simple yet deep rules.

All of them work best if you run a "Yes" style GM

>> No.75505187

You do know not every encounter in the suggested 8 encounter workday is meant to down the players, right? If you want to use less, more substantial encounters (which I also do, and here's my solution) then you can just take the EXP budget of an 8 encounter day and condense it down into a few smaller encounters, adding bits and bobs to account for how area targeting will make it go slightly easier than otherwise.

>> No.75505248

.y last game suffered for this. The DM played us with a setup and then had us face down something every session. Problem was, we fought HP bloat stuff EVERY session. We'd get 20-25 minutes of trying to follow our plot and then a *bing* random encounter with a couple of bad guys....sporting poison this and necro that and AC 30+ and HP in the 500's. Thankfully he had a character that he had used since Advanced and could dues ex machine a char back to life.....but when you have a party made of triple classed characters that's armored to the gills and giving good rolls and you still have to step in with your self-made patron goddess in order to do a full party save every session....maybe making a couple adjustments wouldn't hurt?

>> No.75505294
File: 56 KB, 638x600, 1480905212639.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

eh, I kinda like the wh40k and wfrpg systems their pretty fun because of it's mechanics, fun tables and silly shit happens alot knowing that you're putting your fragile body and soul in the hand of the unforgiving dice god's hands.

>> No.75505341
File: 468 KB, 1000x1000, 1000_1000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

This is your friend
He fights for freedom

Believe me, this speeds things up significantly, especially when it comes to mass combat or any situation with shitload of modifiers.

>> No.75505533

Anon, which part of "I'm doing this shit for 15 years" you didn't get the first time around?
It doesn't enhance the game in the slightest, because it leads to non-stop accounting of things that ultimately end up dragging the story down. And story is the entire point why you are doing, well, story-tell.
Also, "hot take" of someone who ate his teeth on this:
If you've got a player that has to be reined about the situation, then there are three options
- you propose different kind of story, where their "chase after power" might be turned into a handy tool, rather than hindrance (ever played wuxia?)
- you tell them to stop and if they don't, the game simply collapses and they are left with nothing due to their power-wank
- you do nothing, going with the game anyway, and they on their own get very quickly bored, because there is absolutely nothing going in the game
Literally the worst thing you could to is trying to simply limit people by telling them "Hey, here are the rules", because the very first thing that happens is bunch of power-gamers gaming the system for obscene bonuses and the rules that were set to stop them are in fact stopping everyone, BUT the people they were intended to stop.
But again, what can I know, playing story-tell for 15 years, along with playing other kind of games, build on different principles and approaches. From my perspective, Fate and similar titles are completely missing the point, because they are jamming mechanical rules - and pretty extensive ones - into games that are marketed as story-tell. I guess it MIGHT appeal to people who never in their life played a story-tell prior and need some sort of crunch of how to do this thing, so from their perspective it's an extremely reductionist approach to game rules and simplifying of everything... but if you look at it from the opposite direction, it's a contrived pile of useless modifiers that don't enhance shit.

>> No.75505572

I think the biggest issue of this happening was in a module really, Dragonheist, we were fighting the goblins in the sewer and my AC (Armorer artificer with chain + Infused armor) was only a 17, but I popped Shield and suddenly I was at 22 AC and only a crit could hit me. On top of that, even with rolled god stats and a +6 to hit with my thunder gauntlets I kept rolling like dogshit and missing - which admittedly comes down to the d20 being less consistent than other dice types, but it wasn't a fun encounter. I guess I just prefer games where every fight is basically rocket tag because I don't really enjoy TTRPG combat.

The other guy makes a good point, that's an exceptionally difficult encounter thrown at you way too often even for whatever insanity you're playing (mind that's not an insult, that's a compliment and sounds fun as shit in theory). I've even slipped into HP bloat in one of the systems I was on about, it was the big endgame boss and he had 52 HP. The players chunked his HP to 2 in the span of a single round then proceeded to struggle against all of his minions (who all used the same sheet on r20 mind you, so I had to keep up with ALL THEIR INDIVIDUAL HPS which, to be fair, was my fault so I only have myself to blame) until they finally whittled them down too.

>Trust your players to keep track of their shit
Be sure you know your players will first. One of my pet peeves is players not keeping up with their shit, I literally had to put off the LAST SESSION OF A GAME because ONE PLAYER DID NOT KEEP UP WITH THEIR SHIT OR READ THE FUCKING RULES. I love that group and I love that game but fucking christ as a player I'm always 200% on top of my shit so it really feels personal when my players don't do the same.

>> No.75505764

Original anon here and I remember jokes around this with my Chinese lector. Her previous station was in some university in Bongistan, so when doing conversations with students, she was obviously asking them how is it and how they feel, of course expecting the meaningful answer and get a conversation out of it. And Bongs, being Bongs, replied with "fine", "good" and shut up instantly, leaving her frustrated and having to drag them by the tonge. When we reached the point where we could hold at least chit-chat with her, she started to ask us how do we feel today and instantly got material for the lesson, becuase people were just talking or venting and, more importantly, asking for words they were missing to describe their situation, which was the entire point of this. Plus whenever someone was unwilling to keep the conversation, they were always nicknamed Yingguoren - the Englishman.

>> No.75505768

Aw shit man I'm sorry to hear that one of your players was a slob, what did you guys play?

But I feel you, i always try to have tokens for every conceivable situation, detailed maps, that at least give a rough idea how everything looks and multiple enemy types for an interesting encounter


>> No.75505784

Unironically depends on the rules.
And the approach toward people when asking them to do so.

>> No.75505826

Yeah i know
But I'm not exactly running 3.5 or another behemoth of a game with poor editing and layout

>> No.75505864

So I assume you are the Heroquest guy. What's the system like? Only saw it name-dropped on /tg/ few times

>> No.75506056

It's a nice and smooth experience that holds up when you either want a really diverse group of characters from demon summoners to Joe the swordsman without making any invalid by design.
It also works well with an more epic style like bronze age myths or anime shonen trash.

Basically it's a functional narrative system that actually works and "narrative" doesn't stand for "we can't be assed to make a functional system, give us money"

Even just reading it as a gm is a good idea since it has the most non-bullshit approach to it i have ever seen.

Lancer is also pretty nice

>> No.75506192

Off-topic, but is 2e THAT bad?

>> No.75506207

That's not isolated to Anglos though. It's typical to all polite parts of the world.

>> No.75506234

The rules are the only good part of Dungeon World.
It's almost like the PbtA writers stole the rules from somewhere - that's how big the disconnect between the quality of their rules and the quality of their writing is.
Another data point in favor of that hypothesis is how often PbtA third-party games and fan-works are superior to the original.

>> No.75506252

... with expectation of having an actual conversation based on this, at least in places that do have such customs. Or not talking about it when it's not. It does, however, take Anglos, to ask "how are you" as some sort of greetings, but in the same time not expecting answer, or at least other than "fine".

>> No.75506282

Well, you've got me curious now, if this is standing out over Fate-like games. Guess I will give it a shot, should be somewhere in the trove

>> No.75506317

Heroquest is like one of those "just write a bunch of bullshit on a leaflet" freeform games, except it has actual conflict resolution mechanics.
And they fit on one side of an A4.
And at the same time are deep enough to allow some tactics and considerations.

>> No.75506349

No, that's common all over the world. You're just an autist and a racist to boot.

>> No.75506361

Oh, so you're just a bunch of mainlanders.

>> No.75506382

No, you're just autistic and falling for a racist meme spread by astroturfers.

>> No.75506460

Why did they shill for TFA?

>> No.75506475

>t. seething Angloids

Serious fucking question: why the smalltalk? What fucking for? If you don't care about the answer and definitely don't want to hear about someone's problems, why are you asking them how they feel? Seems fucking pointless, not to mention dishonest.
It's one of those things I just don't understand and the standard Anglo reaction is always either puffing and huffing how they are totally not weird and how common this is across the world (I guess if you account former British colonies with dominant Anglo-Saxon population, then sure) OR trying to dismiss you, but nobody ever even tries to explain this shit.

>> No.75506489

The expectation in polite society is that it's a polite inquiry and greeting. Your answer is supposed to be curt and deviate from the norm only with family and friends. This is not an Anglo thing or even an Euro thing.

>> No.75506513

Then why bother asking if you don't want to know the answer?

>> No.75506538

It's called being polite.
Of course to an autistic caveman it might seem dishonest, but it's the basis of civilized behavior. It's pretty normal from Europe, to Northern Africa to East Asia. Even most Americans are able to grasp it.

>> No.75506543

I'd rather not say, the player themselves is fine it's just the crunch side of things where shit falls apart with them. We did get it fixed and had fun, but if I run that game for them again I'm going to ride their asses about their character stuff being up to date.

The game in question would have solved the problems on page 1 and if there was confusion they could have just asked.

>> No.75506552

>why greet people if you don't want them to vomit their life's story at you
Were you raised by videogames instead of people?

>> No.75506590

I'm not saying greeting them is wrong, but why phrase it as a question? You can just say something like, "good to see you", instead of playing coy, and you would get the same point across.

>> No.75506593

>It's called being polite.
How the FUCK is it polite to ask someone, especially something so personal as "how do you feel", when you don't want to hear any other answer than "fine" to simply end the conversation.
>It's pretty normal from Europe, to Northern Africa to East Asia
Yes, with the expectations to have a conversation when this question is asked. Not cutting it off.
>Even most Americans are able to grasp it.
Maybe, jsut fucking maybe because they are Angloids, too?

There is nothing more rude than asking people personal questions if you don't want to hear what they have to say. Aside maybe directly insulting them, that is.

>> No.75506614

... why are you greeting people with a question how they feel, instead, you know, "hi"?
>vomit their life's story at you
Then why did you ask for that, you idiot, if you don't want to hear it?

>> No.75506645
File: 203 KB, 400x800, confused stare.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>It's polite to ask
>Just don't fucking dare answering!
And this is precisely why people get confused.

>> No.75506650

Nobody bothers to explain it, because everyone charitably assumes you're asking in bad faith.
Here in the former commie colonies it's the same - you say "Good day." and then inquire how each other is. And the answer is always "Fine, thanks." To answer anything else assumes a degree of mutual familiarity like being among friends. And then if they don't ask for more details, you don't give any. You feel shitty, cool. They feel sorry for you and might attempt to cheer you up. Very cool.
That's it.

>> No.75506668

Anon, at this point it's ok to admit you're just being literally autistic.

>> No.75506699

I'm not one to judge, but defending the tradition of small talk isn't a hill I would choose to die on.

>> No.75506747

Reminds me when WalMart tried to enter my country. They didn't fail due to prices or quality or competition or law regulations.
They utterly crashed over cultural barrier instead.
Some idiot in their management decided to replicate everything 1:1 from American shops. Everything. So you had cashiers that non-stop grinned at people and asked them how do they feel, but then didn't engage in the conversation when the people at the register replied to the question.
The end result was that everyone was so weirded out by the experience, just nobody wanted to shop there, while the people working there were leaving in droves, because they couldn't stand the fact they are supervised on never-ending fake smile. In slightly over two years, WalMart declared bankrupcy, packed their shops and left, despite having prices lower than the lowest discount shop chain.

>> No.75506813

To follow up on this in regards to my homeland(don't know if it's the same for England or whatever other boogieman is spooking you) - the answer is always "Fine, thanks." because when you get down to it, you usually are. It feels silly having to explain basic societal behavior, but it's an established ritual in which you indicate you care to some small degree, assure each other everything is fine and then carry one, having brightened each other's day. "No, my day is shitty" is reserved for actually having a really bad day and needing the other person's energy and that's why frivolously resorting to it is bad manners.
You ask, because you want to hear a short answer. If you're going to play the literalist angle, accept that normal people only want to hear a literal answer, not a retelling of your entire day.
Even "How was your day?" implies a short summary plus one outstanding activity, such as "Fine, thanks. Went skating with the wife."

>> No.75506830

Funny, because I come from a post-commie country, and first of all, people generally don't ask this question (and most definitely not as a greeting), and when it is asked, it means you are expected to give an answer. So you are then free to tell how your day ways, that you are hungover or that you're waiting for a date or whatever else is going on currently.

>> No.75506856

Not that anon, but the answer is usually "Bad, this and this happend" up here. Never some info-dump, but 2-3 sentences explaining your situation. But nobody but friends or family is going to ask this question, while in case of Anglo-Saxon, a complete fucking stranger is going to ask you how are you, and then get angry if you tell him. I get it, it's customary for them, but that custom is sooo fucking confusing.

>> No.75506974

>"How are you doing?"
>"Alright, tod-"
>"Good to hear. Now fuck off."

Isn't it kind of rude to ask a question which seems sympathetic, but not care at all about what the answer is, and even getting annoyed if the answer isn't the stock answer?

>> No.75507010
File: 303 KB, 2000x2000, ancientculture.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

That custom is neither confusing, nor limited to England or Western Europe. Like anons already mentioned.
Also, if you're unironically using Anglo-Saxon, you may be in need of intervention.
People who give lengthy answers to that question are usually the kind of people you always dread greeting. The kind that end up becoming the babushka who can't shut up at the line for the government clerk or in the doctor's waiting room.
The kind everyone secretly wants to just get up and strangle, but in the mean time you just nod along and hope she dies mid-sentence.

>> No.75507058

Isn't it kind of rude to just keep blathering all the time?
Even if you're autistic enough to be incapable of understanding basic manners, you can at least understand the concept of answering the question and not just talking people's ears off? Or are you literally 5 and can't wait to tell everything to everyone? Do you just keep getting louder if people try to get a word in?

>> No.75507246

>The kind everyone secretly wants to just get up and strangle, but in the mean time you just nod along and hope she dies mid-sentence.
Putting aside the amount of misanthropy in that statement, this is entirely your fault for asking.

Why give them the opportunity by asking a question? Just say, "Hi, good to see you", or some other generic greeting. Some sort of statement that doesn't give those kind of people something to latch onto.

Isn't it retarded that you get mad when someone answers a question that you made the choice of asking? If you didn't want to know, then you don't have to fucking ask. It's that simple.

It's not like saying "hello" instead of "how's it going" is a socially unacceptable way to greet people. So why do you insist on asking if you're going to be annoyed when they answer it genuinely?

You know what's going to happen, but you still do it because that's "polite", but ignore the fact that alternatives exist for polite greetings. You're literally retarded.

>> No.75507267

Neither of them (?), but it's only "common" among people rised on watching American movies. Kind of how all of the sudden kids started to hate raisins recently, because kids in American shows and films hate those. I think "McDonaldisation" is the term for this process.

Why did you asked, if you don't care for the answer?
It's a recurring question that nobody seems to be able to answer. If you don't care about the answer and don't want the conversation, simply don't ask the question. Seems like a perfectly viable solution to me, and a pretty polite one, rather than throwing a tantrum, because someone answered your question or getting frustrated that this happend.
It's one of those fake pleasantries English native speakers indulge in that could be a nice case study of the weaker version of the Sapir-Whorf effect: it's so deeply ingrained in the language structure as a simple saying that it's reduces the actual question to a mindless pleasentry, rather than actual, meaningful question, while people using different language as their native and thus following different set of sayings, react to it as a genuine question.
Unless, of course, you want to tell me there are native English speakers who react to this as a genuine question and starts providing answer, but that just means you are all masochistic on cultural level, asking pointless question just to confuse each other.

>> No.75507346

>Larping this hard as a Slav
>Where Slavs famously talk how are they when asked
Daily reminder that just because your great-grandfather came from Voronezh to New York doesn't make you Russian. It just makes you American.
This is especially important how there are distinctively different phases for chit-chat and genuine question about one's well-being in Russian, which English simply doesn't have.

>> No.75507387

No one gets confused, it's just how people act and they do it literally fucking everywhere in the world from France to Japan to Argentina.

>> No.75507441


Friend, if you are not shitposting, you ha e autism. Bad autism.

>> No.75507471

NAYRT, the term you are all looking for is 'phatic expression'. It is not limited to English or even eurocentric cultures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phatic_expression

As others have mentioned it's not about the literal content. It's about the willingness to engage.

Autists trip up on this on both sides by not understanding that it isn't a literal question, and by answering the question literally. Contrary to being useless, it's a means of dense information exchange. The problem occurs when one of the parties doesn't have enough context to recognize the protocol. Colloquially known as "poor social skills".

>> No.75507491

Responding to a brief, light question with an extended rant is impolite. It's dumping everything on the other party, not even considering if they have the time or inclination to digest it.

Good conversations have a flow to them. "My day's been rough" can lead into "and here's why", but you don't start out with that.

>> No.75507565

I am very confused because I find them to be essential for a good RPG.
I love games where the genre/setting is brought alive by the mechanics and help players interact with the world with a clear way, allowing them to ploy and think how their character would to achieve success (Or even failures) that enhance the shared story.

>> No.75507593

>everybody who can't read my mind is American
Your autism is showing

>> No.75507629

The mechanics ARE the game retard, without them you would just be playing pretend and ERPing.

>> No.75507637

None of the listed anons, but my language genuinely lacks such phases. And when checking the same article on wikipedia in it, it's about completely different thing, too, with completely different examples. The only thing matching is the fact it's related with social function of language. That's about it. So you either communicate people with direct intent, and they respond to it, or you end up with serious miscommunication. This is probably why it's so damn hard for people to learn Japanese up here, as it's almost entirely about being indirect, to absurd proportions.

>> No.75507654

>Once you hit 5th level or higher with d8 or higher classes you're pushing 100 HP with enough CON and/or good rolls if you do that sort of thing.
Ask me how I know you've never actually played D&D

>> No.75507671

Another anon with non-existing reading comprehension

>> No.75507712

True min maxer knows how to be proactive. Invincible character wouldn't actually get stuff done

>> No.75507760

Phatic expersions in my native don't involve asking people how are they or how do they feel. They do, however, involve greetings of various kind.
So maybe, just maybe, it's different languages handling things differently. And when people using sufficiently different languages meet, their phatic expressions will not match, leading to mutual misunderstanding and frustration. Colloquially known as "Do you speak English, motherfucker?"

>> No.75507774

Not that anon, but the end result is still the same:
An OP character that exists solely to be OP, just achieved differently.

>> No.75507833

It's alright. The core system's a lot better than 1e's. Player options are a lot closer to each other in power than they were in 3.5e/1e, and the optimization ceiling actually exists now instead of being a skylight for casters to helicopter out of.
The main points are: All numbers scale with level (and there's gradated progression of +2 bonuses on top of that to set classes apart from each other), crit failures/successes happen 10 below/above DCs and it's a lot more common for them to have specific effects, and almost all character progression/choice (aside from numbers going up) is tied into typed feats.
When it comes to the finer details Paizo's still capable of making a lot of retarded decisions, though. Going by the basic numbers a lot of classes' balance is out of whack, and the more you look into specific spells, feats, and items, the more you'll notice basic errors that any proofreader with half a brain should've been able to spot. The game's still in its infancy and judging by the Magus/Summoner playtests it's looking likely that the quality control's going to get worse from here on out.

>> No.75507874

Who cares about your monkey language you literal mongoloids?

>> No.75507915

You haven't been to either of those

>> No.75507922

>They do, however, involve greetings
so what's the issue. "How's it going" is a greeting.

>> No.75507940

What's weird about a smile and a polite question? Do you live in Antarctica or something where there's no real people?

>> No.75507953

... not in my native, which is my entire point of why this ends up being a problem. Miscommunication based on fact that despite people speaking the same language, they are thinking in different ones, so they get different meanings from what they hear or read. Even if they are aware that something is just a phase or a customary phase - and that's rarely the case.

>> No.75507958

Don't phrase it as a question if it's not supposed to serve a purpose of one.

>> No.75507975

Not him, but
>What's wrong with grinning 8 hours non-stop to people for no reason with obviously fake smile
Are you asking seriously?

>> No.75508007

You don't need a reason to smile to people, it's just normal if you want to give a good impression. And you'd know that if you weren't autistic. Or maybe a penguin.

>> No.75508019

Utterly subjective on my part, but I've routinely found "direct intent" (or 'being straightforward', or any number of similar desires) to be a white whale in communication. One can be a precise and direct as they can possibly be and lose out because the person they are speaking to doesn't know one of the words. Rather than intent, the goal should be "shared context".

Which is also why people who spend all their time online struggle to communicate offline, even when they're not on the spectrum. Not only do they indulge in a completely unique context, but they only engage in on their terms and rarely undergo the context-establishing protocols one normally goes through with face-to-face communication.

Also, Japanese is extremely contextually dependent, so makes sense that it would be even more frustrating if you're coming from a more explicit language.

It is a question, but you're answering it wrong.

>> No.75508036

The fact both are fake? That's extremely rude thing to do and if you keep smiling for no reason, you are either unhinged or high.
That's how it works here. Not to mention there is a very clear distinction between "smile" and "American smile" (it's even a term), where the second one describes a fake, forced and ungenuine gesture.
And this thread spend half of its content already explaining why small talk can horribly backfire, so no point dwelling in that anymore.

>> No.75508038

>... not in my native, which is my entire point of why this ends up being a problem.
it's not a problem, non-native speakers having difficulty with these things is completely normal and expected

>> No.75508041

It's not a genuine question if I'm only supposed to to answer "Fine. How are you old chap?" and nothing else.

>> No.75508056

Been to two and know people from all three.

>> No.75508061

>That's extremely rude thing to do and if you keep smiling for no reason, you are either unhinged or high.
I see. I didn't realize a whole country could be autistic.

>> No.75508071

binland exists

>> No.75508115

Imagine stumbling into a discussion about cultural differencies and how they can lead to communication issues, miss the entire thing and then describe that "but this is just normal and a way to give good impression".
Maybe in States. Up here, it's just downright creepy if you smile for no reason whatsoever to total strangers. Why are you smiling? Is there something funny about their look? Did you just heard a funny joke? Are you drunk?
Add to this the fact that this is, as also already noted, a clearly fake smile. So you are smiling without not just reason, but also meaning. There is such old joke in my country, explaining what's having soul like: If you talk with in a nice voice to a dog "Go fuck yourself", he will bark and wiggle his tail. But if you tell that to a person in a sweet voice "You're a fucking idiot", they will bitch-slap you (works better in original, since it's a funny rhyme).
And the same goes with faking a smile. It's not normal, because it's fake and forced. It's not making good impression, because it's not only fake and forced, but also creepy in the long run.
Got that? Or too hard to comprehend that despite entire Cold War effort, world outside of US borders works differently than within them?

>> No.75508132

There's a difference between smiling when greeting a customer and having an ear to ear death rictus at all times while constantly pestering the customer and hoping they have the absolute greatest bigcorporiffic day they can, especially when their eyes are screaming what they're actually thinking which is usually somewhat less pleasant.

>> No.75508170

yeah, that difference being one is a real thing and one is a schizo fabrication

>> No.75508201

I wonder how you ended up like that. Does it have something to do with your countries being dirt poor and irrelevant?

>> No.75508212

The only autistic person is one that asks how you feel, but doesn't want to know the answer, and smiles like a robot to try to make good impression, but not really feeling friendly or trying to engage in any social activity.
No wonder you fat fucks spend so much time in therapy and pop anti-depressants like candy.

>> No.75508227
File: 272 KB, 500x714, Finland.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Does it?

>> No.75508241

Why are you doing this, man? Or it's another of those Yank rituals only Yanks understand?

>> No.75508252

Doing what? Genuinely trying to understand? Yes, I suppose it must be a Yank only ritual, I've never seen anyone else engaging in it.

>> No.75508255

If you think 4e has "good mechanics", you're a literal number crunching autist.
>inb4 someone calls me a 3eeaboo
Different flavor of shit.

>> No.75508260

Come on, now you gonna act that retail workers, especially those from Walmart and Costco aren't exactly like that.

>> No.75508264

>smiles like a robot to try to make good impression, but not really feeling friendly or trying to engage in any social activity.
Looks like poor personnel choice to me.

>> No.75508307

This honestly, but I would argue that's because combat is inherently bogged down by mechanics instead of relying entirely on GM fiat to make it interesting. In most games fighting a giant multi-tentacled monster with a big eye in the center should lead to interesting improvised strategies, but generally boil down to "hit foe and decrease their HP', or at best "focus hit location". Roleplaying should be the focus in fights.

>> No.75508388

To improvise strategies you need to have high detail in your surroundings which if you use maps means that either all fights are set pieces you've been railroaded to, or your GM has a whole library of pre-made combats on him. If you do TotM, it means you have to get long winded descriptions that your average player wouldn't have the attention span to grasp.

>> No.75508514

The players are

>> No.75508610

I used to be a rolefag but one day I realized I got it wrong all along.
If you want to roleplay just act, or daydream, or write, there are many better ways of doing that part of the game.
If you want to play tabletop, especially D&D, you should just think of it as a social game, or a wargame. That's it you roll dice and go through the dungeon. Or you focus on the results either way.
Too much emphasis on roleplay in the sense of freeform acting has ruined tabletop.

>> No.75508741

honestly it takes a special kind of pathetic to literally go pubstomp a bunch of a faggots playing pretend, completely unprovoked.

also how the hell did they even get to your office in the daytime if everyone burns in the sunlight?

>> No.75508780

The medium has evolved past D&D, grog. Tabletop is as much of an interactive story as it is a wargame dungeon crawling experience.

>> No.75509106

I've played 5e up through level 11 on a couple of occasions, combat lasts forever and it sucks because combat is always the most poorly thought-out part of any TTRPG.

>> No.75509186

You don’t like playing games then.

>> No.75509212

If you're not the initial anon I was responding to: Cool. I partially agree. I wasn't saying anything in contradiction to that, though.
If you are: Have you considered that lacking numeracy (and I don't mean the kind of autism that's required to optimize in 3.x here, but the kind that prevents you from doing extremely basic arithmetic) might be a confounding factor in your experiences with combat in TTRPGs?

>> No.75509333

I'm not the guy you replied to at first, but I have seen DND fall into two types of combat: Rocket tag and happy slaps. Part of it is how unpredictable the d20 is, but the other is how easy it is to get high AC and HP in 5e. I can't speak for other editions - for all I know in 3.5 it's fine - but in 5e there's just the prerfect mix of factors to make combat drag on where in other systems (mainly D6 systems) combat only lasts maybe 25 minutes at most, usually it's much shorter and more fun too because you have more stuff you can do with your turn.

>> No.75509525

Yes, and?

>> No.75509654

High HP and AC are more of a problem when enemies have them, because for obvious reasons it's more likely that the enemies are the ones who actually get dropped to 0. At higher levels, especially if the martials aren't optimized, 5e does indeed have fights that tend to drag on for a while because the enemies become sacks of meat points.
That said, 100 HP is impossible to get by level 5, even if you're optimizing for it, which is my specific point here. Especially so for d8 classes. At level 5, a d8 class has 68 hit points, best-case scenario with optimization and without rolling. Even with rolling it's straight impossible to have 100 HP unless you're a d12 class, at which point it's only statistically impossible. In regular play it's unlikely for the d12 class to break 100 until level 10-11, and maybe 11-12 and 14-15 for d10s and d8s, respectively.

>> No.75511050

People like JRPGs because of presentation, music, and characters. I mean, what are the stakes in Disgaea (Numbers are astronomical) compared to SMT (seldom break 1000)? Here's a hint, SMT has had three protagonists kill literal God.

Go play Bug Fables.

>> No.75511176

Freeform with open, public groups tends to be hilariously bad, because it attracts the immature people who like freeform but couldn't make any friends who would put up with their power playing and obnoxious OOC jealousy. I've been in a number of freeforms, including those started on 4chan, and the best times are always when you find a few like-minded, decent people and fuck off to do your own private thing somewhere else. That's where the real gold is, but it's hard to find.

It's the same with pen and paper games. LGS pick-up groups are the fucking worst, or at least have a high likelihood of containing some awful fuck who got banned from every other LGS before he showed up at this one. Games with friends who actually like playing together and share similar interests will always be better unless you enjoy the kind of trainwreck public games bring.

>> No.75511325

Mechanics can create emergent storytelling, or otherwise aid in roleplaying.
Mechanics can be entertaining in their own right.
If you don't like how certain things, like combat, are handled in what you're playing, try looking at other systems, there's far too many systems out there.

>> No.75511459

I've been forced to foreverGM 5e for four years or so and you're bullshitting quite hard there. Of all the system's flaws, HP values aren't particularly one of them.
A 5th level, 14 con, d8 HD character has somewhere around 36 HP., depending on con. A CR5 monster is supposed to do 33-38 damage a round. A single CR5 monster is an Easy encounter for four 5th-level PCs.

Now, I will say that throwing a bunch of medium encounters at a party is boring, because you're just throwing filler at the party and wasting perfectly good prep time by that point. >>75505187 is on the right track; do a couple hard encounters a day instead.

...Or play an actually good system instead, like Genesys, but given that a couple of flat dice seem to give you trouble, maybe not.

>> No.75511546


4E has shit mechanics, a single fight against goblins takes two hours.

>> No.75511591

I can concede I might have exaggerated, but that's only because my most recent experience of happy slaps was in a Dragonheist game. I was an Armorer artificer with enhanced chain and Shield active, and the only way goblins could hit me was with a crit. Likewise, the dice decided that was the day to kick me in the balls metaphorically speaking and I couldn't roll to hit for shit (again, IMO that has to do with how unpredictable the d20 can be).

Then I ran Star Wars D6 and one of the players almost got instagibbed when a scout trooper's dice exploded, and I've played a few other d6-based systems where combat is much faster. There CAN be fun in long combat if that's what you're going for, particularly if the enemies are tied to the narrative and it's been a fight that's a long time coming, but against your average mooks it can become a slog. Then again I prefer martials so I don't usually have Fireball and other massive damage spells to throw around.

Genesys is a generic system right? I avoid those because I've had really bad experiences with HERO and GURPS. I also don't like systems with complex or "deep" mechanics, because to me the numbers side of things is the most boring part of a TTRPG. I prefer more ruleslite games, the less number-crunching I have to do the better. Most systems I play are d6 pool systems, with a couple of 2d10 and a d100 system in there as well (though the last one is one I made myself from the ground up), and the d100 system has incredibly deadly combat. Like we're talking random mooks meatshotting my poor character with pretty piss weak armor for a third of his HP in a single shot damage. It's rocket tag, but it's a fun kind of rocket tag even if the GM for that game has somehow cursed our dice. D6 systems are just more reliable and if you hit even if the enemy is tanky you'll deal SOME damage, even if you have to chip them they won't have much HP or you can make multiple attacks in a turn so it's not as bad.

>> No.75511599

>thinking DnD is all that is? Or semi-new and thinking people are only allowed to play published stuff?
lol, retard

>> No.75511636

Yes by definition, because it's the only part of the game that can be meaningfully evaluated

>> No.75511749

Only if you're retarded.

>> No.75512099

>a single fight against goblins
I can imagine such a scenario but it would have to be a very weird one. Since your phrase doesn't mean much 4e, would you mind giving specifics of the encounter?

>> No.75512210
File: 68 KB, 650x956, invoke prejudice.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

No, the worse part of any RPG is generally the fanbase surrounding it.

>> No.75512398

you were just playing with immature people
when your character dies you get to invent a new one, that's fun
why were they playing a game with character death if they didn't enjoy high stakes?

>> No.75512405

Level 1 PCs vs. same amount of goblins.

In 5e, the fight is over instantly.

In 4e, shit takes hours you fucking brainlet.

>> No.75512444

What goblins, you cockmongler? There's three types of them in MM1 alone!
Also, you have to be a complete retard to fight an equal amount of standard monsters for hours. Our literal first fight in 4e was against both standard and minion gobs, it took 30 minutes and people weren't even familiar with their characters.

>> No.75512568

Have you tried playing Risus?

>> No.75512617

Regular goblins, brainlet. 5e has regular goblins.

>> No.75512633

Have you tried playing the actually good edition and not 2e garbage?

>> No.75512651
File: 1.93 MB, 839x804, GOBBO.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Hmmmm, why, yes, let's open up 4e's Monster Manual. Best to judge a game by its core three books.

Oooo, would you look at that. Here's a gobbo with chainmail and a battleaxe. He's only level 3 yet he has 53 HP! And 16 AC!

But what's this? He swings at just +6. And his damage is absolute shit.

If there are four PCs against four of these gobbos, it's going to be a long fight, my dear friend. Can you say padded sumo?

>> No.75512865

I've already played Paper Mario, and small, low scaling numbers do indeed provide an entirely different combat tone. And for that reason, not every RPG should have small, low scaling numbers.
I see you're actually familiar with something about 4e. But not enough. Higher HP with lower defense is a trait of brutes, they actually end up taking more damage than normal because of this (at that level, the PCs should theoretically be hitting it on a roll of 9+, but in practice at the early levels players will front load accuracy bonuses they'd get later so it'll probably be more like 6+). An encounter of four of these should take no more than 3 rounds, and with only four combatants a side, no more than 30 minutes. Unless you majorly fucked up and ignored the guidelines of party building and teamwork.

>> No.75512901

4e's monster math is some fucked up dogshit. It's padded sumo all the way.

Those gobbos are barely a threat yet they have so much fucking hp.

>> No.75512927

>Higher HP with lower defense
Bruh stop lying they have 53 HP and 16 AC.

>> No.75512983

Yes, the normal defense for that level would be 18 AC, and the normal HP would be about 48.
It's a bit of a misconception that the monster math was that broken before Monster Manual 3, it was only solos who had too much HP. Their accuracy is low here but that isn't a usual facet of the monster design pre-MM3. What sucks about pre-MM3 design is the monsters are so fucking boring. They hardly have any abilities beyond (Standard action: apply damage, if controller or soldier: condition). In terms of damage, 2d10+5 averages to 16 damage, nothing to sneeze at when level 3 characters will usually have 43 or so HP.

>> No.75513038

>Yes, the normal defense for that level would be 18 AC

>> No.75513041

>errata shouldn't exist
>if a game isn't perfect at first shot, it's shit
>uses a brute as an example, an enemy specifically designed to have mediocre defenses, high hp compared to other creatures of similar level and high damage output
Your bullshit only works on people who don't actually play games, and treat memes as fact. 4e's initial issue was that enemies didn't do enough DAMAGE to make them a threat, not their high hp.

>> No.75513043

The gobbo gets the big damage only at half health. It's padded sumo, brainlet.

>> No.75513094

You purposely used a creature that, to people that have no experience with the game, seems outlandish.
You are one of those guys screaming "EVERYONE IS A CASTER!", just as wrong, just as much a faggot.

>> No.75513101

I dare to say that it beats fate in it's own game.

Its achilles heel is that there is a board game, vidiya game and a core mechanic in another game with the exact same name.

>> No.75513151

>Literally plays 5e Lost Mines of Phandelver
>Literally spends 2 to 3 hours fighting the goblins in the caves because they are keep disengaging everywhere as a bonus action.

>> No.75513209

Hey, it's better than that asinine article that compared how many goblins can a level 1 fighter kill before dying across editions and used minion goblins for 4e, concluding that PCs in 4e are supermen. You know, the edition where town guards are level 3 soldiers.

>> No.75513234
File: 7 KB, 350x200, mm3businessfront.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.75513239

5e's Monster Manual just works, even without errata.

Why is 4e so shit? You're saying it's a broken game at release. That was never the case with 5e.

>> No.75513251

>3 + 14 = 18
You suck at math.

>> No.75513273

Look at brutes you git

>> No.75513324

He isn't me, he never said 18 AC. My mistake was that my group actually just uses higher defenses and HP than MM3, combats end too quickly for our tastes otherwise.

>> No.75513938

>5e's Monster Manual just works, even without errata.
No, it doesn't, because the CR system is still fucked.
Which means the monster manual doesn't work as intended.

>> No.75514050

>Tabletop is as much of an interactive story as it is a wargame dungeon crawling experience.
And it does both wrong.
I'm not against a seamless blending of the two but the current system, as it stands right now, is incompatible with it.
Roleplay is OK but it should be flavor, not the main content. Because the game just isn't made for it.

>> No.75514131

>Roleplay is OK but it should be flavor, not the main content
That's your opinion, bro.
Every table has a right to determine what is fun.

>> No.75514182

It's not my opinion: the current model for TTRPG rules (especially D&D) is not well designed to accommodate the kind of freeform acting people expect to do when they think of roleplaying.
What it ends up with is a lot of pointless talking where dice rolling only gets in the way, and a completely separate wargame experience that is just as poorly integrated in the narrative flow as random encounters in a JRPG.

>> No.75514288

5e doesn't give you long-ass padded sumo like 4e does.

>> No.75514298

Dice rolling DOES get in the way. If anything there needs to be less of it.

>> No.75514350

>continues trotting out memes
No, 5e just has no idea how to build encounters or make dynamic pcs, leading to the same pull and pray approach of 3e.
You know what 4e didn't have? Shitty rangers. Or any core class, in fact.

>> No.75514371

4e has a broken ass release.

>> No.75514471

And was improved throughout it's lifetime.
Broken things were fixed, not ignored or thrown away (bye Mystic).
For some reason, you are now trying to claim that actively maintaining and cleaning up mechanics is bad.

>> No.75514479

Then you are just confirming what I said, when the rules only get in the way and what you really want is freeform acting, the current way TTRPGs are developed doesn't work, while it works instead ad a wargame with very basic roleplay.

>> No.75514482

I can play 5e with the core three books and it'll work like a charm.

Can you say the same of 4e?

>> No.75514696

>I can play 5e with the core three books and it'll work like a charm.

>> No.75514720

Stay mad over your dead game.

>> No.75514740

No. But playing DnD will certainly make it feel that way.

>> No.75514749
File: 7 KB, 150x150, pic4099106.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

here, this game might be better suited for you

>> No.75514874

The rules are just there to keep track of things. It's not like the GM has to actually follow them, people who try to rules lawyer the GM should be punished by rolling on the Wandering Damage Table. The GM's prerogative is to break the rules, break the canon, break the character, break the player.
I have never understood why you weak GMs let players bully you. I can only imagine it in-universe like some smart-ass mouthing off to God, and God is like, "Oh... OK" and just slumps off back to Heaven and cries into his collection of Precious Moments figurines and comfy pullovers.

>> No.75515135


>> No.75515148

>Freeform turns into "My infinity is stronger than your infinity"
but that's not freeform you autist

>> No.75515202
File: 94 KB, 720x616, ukjkyx3sen9z.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.75517726

I'll answer your post in reverse order here:

>Genesys is a generic system right?
Yes, though it's effectively the same core as FFG Starwars. It's got non-numerical rolls with its funky special dice, which are really the one mechanic with any complexity.
Unimportant combat doesn't take too long because turns are over in one, maybe two rolls, and mooks die fast by definition.
It's a good system for moving things along, putting weight on every roll, etc. It's not that lethal to PCs, but it's pretty easy to mess one up with critical damage effects.

Meanwhile, back in 5e...
>I was an Armorer artificer with enhanced chain and Shield active, and...

>plays an unbalanced UA archetype
>spends all his spell slots on single rounds of defense
>complains that his defenses are too good
I'll give it to you that the d20's swingy, and it can fuck you. That's supposedly working as intended.

>> No.75518215

>It's a bit of a misconception that the monster math was that broken
It was literally recommended to double damage across the board it was that bad.

>> No.75518306

That's a recommendation from high lethality fags.
Don't listen to high lethality fags, ever.
Especially not for a high heroics system like 4e.

>> No.75518422

>Bruh stop lying they have 53 HP and 16 AC.
Is that supposed to be high? Nigga any normal-ass level 3 rogue is going to hit that AC without any problem.

Name (leave empty)
Comment (leave empty)
Password [?]Password used for file deletion.