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73111533 No.73111533 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Why do infantrymen waste time fighting large battles when they could just nuke or even use portable nuclear weapons to kill the enemy? Since the imperium is so vast that it has over a million planets and they destroy chaos infested worlds anyway, why don’t they just nuke the fuck out of every planet and lose 0 guard? They can even make infantry nukes like starship troopers. For what reason other then rule of cool do mass infantry armies battle with normal ass guns instead of massive devastating futuristic explosive artillery and nuked?

>> No.73111685

>>73111533
>other then rule of cool
As you point out, rule of cool is a valid reason. It is the core of WH40k, all else can be sacrificed.

>> No.73111740

>>73111533
teenager take

>> No.73111874

>>73111533
Because they could use those planets for hives or farms or production, the Imperium are greedy and Guardsmen with artillery made out of pig iron are cheap. You can't make use of a planet that has enough radiation to fry electronics.

>> No.73111906

>>73111533
>why do we have infantry battles
Because it's fun, anon!

>> No.73111971

>>73111533
Why the fuck would you nuke territory you want to gain you absolute brainlet?

>> No.73112158

>>73111533
Because the entire point of anything written about the setting exists solely to sell plastic soldiers. You have fusion power and massive industrial power, yet you care about planets? By rights each system would be filled with orbital habitats and solar collectors with a population in the trillions. Per star.

>> No.73112361

>>73111533
Probably cause a small city with some infrastructure is worth more than a thousand men in the eyes of the Imperium, now scale that up to a planet

Orks like to fight

Nids apparently never learned how to control microbes with synapse creatures

Necrons lost most of their best tech after millions of years in stasis. Also don't value the "lives" of their infantry anyways since they will just regenerate.

Chaos wants to corrupt.

Dark Eldar want slaves.

Tau don't like genocide.

Eldar usually fight for specific objectives.

>> No.73112493

>>73111533
Because there's no point to it.

>> No.73112675

>>73112158
The Imperium is practically broken due to its massive, corrupt bureaucracy and being led by a corpse, so they still get things done sometimes, but getting their shit together to create a sci-fi utopia isn't ever going to be one of those things. They probably went through that phase back when they invented all the amazing tech that they don't understand any more.

Ignoring how Primaris ruined the lore, everything in the Imperium is deteriorating. Hive worlds are crumbling, but still have hundreds of billions of people. When one of your orbitals falls into disrepair, it'll likely be fatal for its entire population.

Orbitals are just another type of thing to invade or defend. I could swear there's at least one mission about invading some sort of space structure in one of the many campaign books out there, and on a smaller scale there's both Space Hulk and Blackstone Fortress. Anywhere there's people, there will be people with guns, especially in 40K.

>> No.73112738

>>73112675
Oh no I get it, it's a bleak nihilistic setting of eternal battle. But it's to give a reason to bang toys together, so you get heaving lines of infantry long after such a thing makes any sense

>> No.73112813

>>73112361
Nah the tau practice genocide they are just more subtle about it

>> No.73113211
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73113211

>>73111533
The fuck are you talking about? Orbital bombardments and use of WMDs is common in 40k. The infantry battles are focused on specific objectives, like closing an alien portal or protecting infrastructure, things you can't or wouldn't want to deploy nukes. Exterminatus is often the solution to demonic and alien infestation.

>> No.73113421

>>73112158
Living in space is vastly overrated. Why would you waste a bunch of expensive metal building a fake planet when there's already planets with plenty of air, biomass, heat, gravity, a horizon, a day-night cycle, and water just sitting right there for you to take?

>> No.73113472

>>73111533
Because that planet belongs to the Emperor. You don't fuck up the Emperor's property without a really good reason. Guardsmen are worth far less than a planet.

>> No.73113584
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73113584

>>73111533
>nukomg your own cities you no longer know how to build

>> No.73113957

>>73111533
Because its a setting designed to house playable dioramas of infantry armies shooting at each other.

>> No.73114043

>>73111533
Just to clarify, your question is concerning the plausibility of the 40k universe, do I have that right?

>> No.73114888

>>73114043
There are a lot of things that aren't really plausible in 40k, but then there are also a lot things that are actually very justifiable with even a basic understanding of the setting

>> No.73114942

>>73113421
>expensive metal
I mean, if you already have interstellar travel you basically just solved any conceivable problem of "i don't have enough metal!". A ship, espeically the 40k giant cathedral ships, are just mobile space stations. A station that people live on is just a space ship that you don't need to have a warp drive or even powerful engines on. It can be mostly living space with some remedial engines to move it for remedial course correction as needed, and a power plant.

>> No.73115294

>>73114942
Imperium may have a lot of infrastructure, but its industry base has been degraded by 10 millennia of war, and the Admech monopoly eliminates any possibility of rebuilding faster than they are losing valuable structures.

Many Imperial worlds are badly overpopulated though, so tossing low grade Guardsmen at every problem actually solves two problems.

>> No.73118463

>>73111533
because it's a tabletop game

>> No.73118697

>>73111533
>For what reason other then rule of cool do mass infantry armies battle with normal ass guns instead of massive devastating futuristic explosive artillery and nuked?

Because if you want to capture a world to use its stuff (be it farms, factories or whatever) it's counterproductive to destroy them with nukes.

Its the same reason ww2 saw massed infantry battles instead of just bombers carpet bombing everything.

>> No.73118811

>>73113421

Because there are not.

>> No.73118820

It takes centuries to terraform a planet, anon.

>> No.73118855

You have to stop thinking about this like a strategist and think about it like an economist. Nukes, and especially an Exterminatus regimen, are extremely expensive and difficult to produce compared to 200 billion guardsmen. You have to allocate your resources where they are most useful, and eventually some of those guys are gonna get the lasgun treatment because a) it's all we've got left, and b) who gives a fuck about guardsmen?

You can't approach this like human life is worth something because you're worried about losing political clout at home. Human life is the cheapest and most plentiful resource at the Imperium's disposal.

>> No.73118910

>>73111533

>Since the imperium is so vast.

Only relatively to other scifi settings because writters suck at understanding scales. The Imperium is grossly underpopulated compared to what it could be.

>> No.73118917

>>73112813
Frankly speaking the tau genocide is far, far more palatable than other forms of genocide.
"Oh no, you invited the Imperium Space Marines and Imperial guard here and tried to kill all of us? We'll let you live well, just no more girls. Just fucking masturbate or fuck other guys."

Compare to "PURGE THE ALIEN! BURN THEM ALIVE WITH HOLY PROMETHEUM!"

>> No.73118970

>>73111533
Because there's armor, Xenos, and other creatures that can survive portable nuclear weaponry. The average IG's standard issue weapon is the equivalent of a nuke going off in laser form.

>> No.73118999

>>73118917
>"Oh no, you invited the Imperium Space Marines and Imperial guard here and tried to kill all of us? We'll let you live well, just no more girls. Just fucking masturbate or fuck other guys."
What in the fuck gave you that idea? The races they genocide they nuke into obliteration or exterminate to the last. The only ones they sterilize are rebellious elements in already conquered worlds, and that doesn't killing the females.

>> No.73119031
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73119031

>>73111533
The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand!

>> No.73119887

>>73111533
From Rogue Trader - Into the Storm
>Atomics are ancient weapons of widespread destruction, terrible devices that haunted humanity long before it reached the stars.
>In the Dark Age of Technology and the Age of Strife, atomics turned many worlds into scoured, radioactive wastelands. They were some of humanity’s most powerful weapons of war.
>In the age of the Imperium, however, atomics have since fallen out of favour. Simply put, the militant Adepta and the Imperial Inquisition have better ways to destroy worlds.
>Cyclonic torpedoes and virus bombs can slay whole planets in a matter of hours, or even minutes.
>On the other hand, even hundreds of atomic warheads will not destroy a world outright—instead polluting the biosphere and slowly choking life with palls of intensely radioactive soot.

Basically nukes are too weak for the purpose of destroying planets and too dirty for the purposes of invading them.

>> No.73120211 [DELETED] 

>>73118999
>The races they genocide they nuke into obliteration or exterminate to the last.
What, did they include a number of races that the Tau nuked to death in splatbooks or something? The only genocide reference I can tell is still only in dawn of war.

>> No.73120226

>>73118999
>The races they genocide they nuke into obliteration or exterminate to the last
What, did they include a number of races that the Tau nuked to death in splatbooks or something? The only genocide reference I can tell is still only in dawn of war. And that was by segregating the men and women of Kronus 4 into separate camps, which lead to genocide when none of humans there had kids, and died out in a generation. Still genocide, but no murder.

>> No.73121044

>>73120226
In the codices it is implied that they wiped out one of the first races they encountered with an engineered virus, though the wording is ambiguous, so pretty easy to ignore if you want.

During the Agrellan Campaign they wipe out a couple of hive cities from orbit since they couldn't afford to get bogged down in a meat grinder campaign.

Also, genocide is their standard policy for nids and orks, which is completely reasonable really.

>> No.73121489

>>73118917
I don't see how this is any more palatable

>> No.73122161

>>73111533
The Emperor is dead, and Khorne is directing the Imperium from the Golden Throne. Khorne wants battle, not nukes.

>> No.73122245

>>73111533
nukes cost more than guardsmen

>> No.73125794

>>73111533
Because we actually need the ground we're fighting on for people and industry. We're trying to win something here. Battles aren't just being fought for the sake of battles and denying the foe, they're so that we get the land and resources and materials. Every expense of heavy ordinance is weighed up as is it worth it or not? If we gave every man a gun that created nuclear fission, aside from blowing themselves up on the first day of training, there wouldn't be a habitable planet left to fight on.

>> No.73125942

>>73111533
Because half the point isn't to kill the enemy but to take what the enemy controls

Nuking would be like burning the flags in capture the flag

>> No.73129467

More cost efficient, in 40k typical human life is virtually worthless

>> No.73129783

>>73129467
this

>> No.73129851

>>73112738
Ignoring Primaris again, there's never any progress made, so yes, heaving lines of infantry will always make sense in the setting.
Of course you're right that the setting is designed to play with your toys. It is a game. It wouldn't make any sense to release WH40K 10th edition and say that ground battles don't matter any more in 40K, so throw out all your toys and stop buying any more.
I, personally, will believe infantry will always matter in at least some situations, unless I see them go obsolete in my own lifetime. Even if the vast majority of 40K conflicts require no infantry, what's the most popular faction? Space Marines: the soldiers who themselves are only rarely involved in the infantry conflicts that do happen. We even have Custodes now, and special characters are commonly used. The game is about the exceptional situations in the galaxy, not the norm.

>> No.73131659

>>73118463

>> No.73132250

>>73111533
Simple. The guy who makes the nukes enjoys being the only guy with nukes, and only distributes them grudgingly. Fortunately guardsman are cheap since lives have no inherent value and if you throw enough at something you can simulate a shitty nuke, which lets you save the real nukes for more important things like threatening your political rivals.

>> No.73132960

>>73121044
Yeah like, as much as people like to crow about Tau Genocide they'd still be the most palatable faction to live under as an average citizen. Even as a Gue'la, your situation is better than those trillions in hive cities or death worlds or whatever fresh hell the imperium has cooked up

>> No.73133865

>>73111533
>Human lives are cheap
>Nukes are expensive
>Planets are very expensive
Ergo we use human lives to solve problems because nuking a planet is not cost efficient.

>> No.73137288
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73137288

>>73111533
they do use nukes

big part of the setting is they have more than enough manpower but not a lot of tech resources to back it up, so it's much more effective to give a few thousand greased up homeless knives and bare minimum training than it is to use one of your remaining 12 thousands of years old nukes

>> No.73137413

>>73129851
>unless I see them go obsolete in my own lifetime
They've been obsolete since Hiroshima.
The US is building more drones than it is training pilots. Israel has been deleting single cars and individuals from low orbit for more than ten years.
Throwing bullets, gas, or explosives around is now on the same scale as stinging insects, relative to the power available. Basically it just let's your enemy drone-kill you with a moral fig-leaf for that pesky politics joke.

>> No.73137652

>>73111533
Ignoring that habitable plantes are finite and worth fighting for, the Astra Militarum is a huge bureaucratic institution with enormous political power. Its head is one of the high lords and every one of its billions of officers is jockeying for position and glory. They aren't going to stand down just because you want to glass everything.

>>73129467
This and flak armor + lasguns are ridiculously easy to make but decently powerful. A thousand guardsmen are actually a very effective fighting force. Especially against primitives. Such a detachment could have won any ground war in modern history.

>> No.73137708

>>73111533
The heart of Grimdark is relentless tragedy. One of the great tragedies of the setting is that Man's golden age is forgotten history and elegant technical solutions are politically and culturally infeasible.

In the 41st millennium the human species is as set in its ways as an 80 year old widow with hardening of the arteries.

>> No.73139694

>>73137652
what are you defining as the modern era? But regardless, fucking no. Don't be silly. Let's not oversell guardsmen here. Their equipment is very effective by modern standards, but even if their armor was 100% bulletproof to modern weapons and their lasguns could defeat modern body armor and even light vehicles, that doesn't change the facts their armor doesn't cover 100% of their body, they're still susceptible to heavier weapons, and 1000 men just isn't that many.

>> No.73139937

>>73111533
The funny thing is, if you have space ships, you don't even need nukes. Kinetic bombardment will yield the same results, without any radiation. Just drop a tungsten rod from orbit, and see them evaporate.

>> No.73140011
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73140011

>>73113584
>no longer know how to build
This is still the most underrated part of 40k lore

>> No.73140047

>>73112158
>a population in the trillions. Per star.
That's placing numbers cautiously.

>> No.73140848

>>73137413
>he hasn't studied the Korean War

You can bomb a land from orbit, but you cannot conquer and hold it from orbit.

>> No.73142230

>>73140848
You can if there's no one left to oppose you planetside

>> No.73142481

>>73142230
There is certain settings where killing the opposition with hundreds of thousands of targeted drone strikes, bio weapons tailored to only affect certain individuals, etc. But 40k isn't one of them.

>> No.73143311

>>73142481
I didn't say poop about tailoring shit to crap. Just holding and conquering, from orbit, via one-sided attrition.

>> No.73143358
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73143358

>>73111533

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwzATXm9Oso

>> No.73143379
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73143379

>>73111874
>You can't make use of a planet that has enough radiation to fry electronics.

>> No.73143579

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh03GxRndeI

>> No.73144215

>>73143311
Again, works fine in other settings, not in 40k where infrastructure and precision munitions are worth more than human life.

Bombing shit from orbit definitely happens in 40k if the infrastructure and/or resources on the ground are seen as worthless or irredeemably tainted, but usually the minute there is something worth salvaging, it is send in the expendable mooks time.

>> No.73144939

>>73143358
Based IA posting.

>> No.73145730

>>73111533
>I just solved
>Doesn't present solutions, only stupid questions
You poor retard.

>> No.73145888

>>73118917
The long death is far worse than the quick one. Putting people into sterilization camps is inquisitor levels of evil.

>> No.73145948

>>73143379
Krieg's equipment is chemical resistant, not rad resistant. Shit couldn't even hold to a nurgle plague in the days when nurgle rot did not trump everything.

>> No.73148749

>>73140011

Cawl and everything he represents shits all over it

>> No.73148806

>>73145888

doubt

wealthy western countries + Japan are basically starting to do this voluntarily and below replacement fertility rates

>> No.73148844

>>73111533
Your brilliant plan is render entire planet uninhabitable thanks to radiation poisoning...

>> No.73149026
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73149026

>>73145948
Nuclear fallout doesn't produce gamma rays.
If your equipment can protect you against chemical and biological agents it can protect you against fallout.

>> No.73149358

>All this talk of nuclear fallout and civilian casualties
Hiroshima's population returned to pre-war levels in only 10 years. There is no reason not to use low-yield nuclear weapons in large-scale urban warfare, especially when supernatural threats are involved.

>> No.73149391

>>73111533
Because WH is about aesthetics first, logic second.

>> No.73152622

>>73149391
usually that is true, though in this case they have some pretty solid justification for why things are the way they are, as discussed on this thread

>> No.73156239

>>73112361
Also may I point out that Necrons are very often already on the planet- it's THEIR planet.

>> No.73157869

>>73111533
Go play battletech, fag

>> No.73158724

>>73111533
Why would you do that when guard are worth less than nukes?

Human life is the cheapest and most abundant resource the imperium has

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