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71439229 No.71439229 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

This is the Wall of Faithless. It devours souls not only of all atheists, but also everyone who didn't worship the gods hard enough. When Kelemvor stopped feeding fedoras to it, every god - including the good gods - demanded he start doing it again.

>> No.71439245
File: 196 KB, 700x490, __original_drawn_by_kaworu_kaw_lov__9b837bee595a2e5d3881cd7b7c0b5d3b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71439245

Atheists getting what they deserve as usual I see.

>> No.71439250

>>71439229
Why would you make a wall out of hats?

>> No.71439263

>>71439245
>Skip your weekly church to Tyr, because your son is sick
>Tyr's McMafia begins knocking on your door politely
>"Nice life you've led. It would be a shame if you were found False, and got sent into the Wall, wouldn't it?"

>> No.71439273
File: 121 KB, 850x515, __original_drawn_by_sas_ls08b__sample-153240dfaebec4dd233f88e90dec323e.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71439273

>>71439263
>not going to church to pray for your son's health
It's like you don't know how this whole "faith" thing works.

>> No.71439290

Based

>> No.71439300

>>71439229
Does the Wall serve any purpose, or is it just there for the sake of punishing the atheists?

>> No.71439306

>>71439300

I think Greenwood just really hates atheists.

>> No.71439323

>>71439229
The betrayal/soul eater ending of Mask of the Betrayer is the only good one because it's the only one that actually holds the gods to account for their self serving abuses of the mortal races.

>> No.71439330

>>71439229
>but also everyone who didn't worship the gods hard enough
When clarification was given on this, it wasn't "lol you don't worship enough" it was people who blaspheme against all the gods, burning down temples, and being a literal militant atheist.
Just living your life close enough to how a god sees as just and righteous was enough to get you off of the wall.

>>71439300
Depends.
In the early versions it was literally made by the asshole god of the dead who by canon enjoyed trolling people, as the equivalent of giving the setting a purgatory. Though in the early version people didn't know what the actual afterlife was, so it being a story made up to scare kids into making sure to always pay their tithes and say their prayers was also fitting.
You also have to remember that back then the concept of dedicating yourself to one and only god was also seen as obscene for anyone who wasn't a cleric, even evil gods getting worship for their roles in the physics of reality.

When Planescape came out and TSR started pushing the whole "every setting is a part of planescape" thing, it was used as justification as to why the Bloodwar wasn't pouring over into portal rich Faerun, with the explanation being the wall prevents demons/devils/etc from being able to pass into the plane... somehow.

>> No.71439331

>>71439300
The gods need worshippers to survive otherwise they start fading out of existence. That's why even the "good" ones turn a blind eye to the horrific nature of the wall.

>> No.71439332

>>71439306
That's ironic because he is going to Hell. Humorous.

>> No.71439353

>>71439332
Come on, anon, FR is not THAT bad.

>> No.71439361

>>71439229
>didn't worship the gods hard enough
To get WALL'D means you had to basically not worship the gods at all. "Hard enough" in this context means literally doing the bare minimum of a divine-mortal relationship, listening to the edicts of your god, and actually trying to keep your god in mind year by year. Doesn't even have to be day by day or hour by hour. But you can't go your whole life ignoring them.
>>71439300
Originally it was simply an inventive punishment by Myrkul, Lord of Bones, the evil god of death. Kelemvor had to keep it up because when he tried to remove it, the mortals got pompous and decided they didn't need to worship gods because "they're just powerful outsiders, why worship them" or something, nevermind that "god" is a well understood cosmic station of crucial importance in the realms.

>> No.71439459

>>71439361
>"god" is a well understood cosmic station of crucial importance in the realms.
Why?

>> No.71439636

>>71439229
> of all atheists
How many non-atheists there are? Like, people in D&D worshiping gods that do not exist in the setting in principle?

>> No.71439653

It's just Ed railroading you into caring about his shit lore. Deities haven't mattered since 2E, when they had custom kits.

>> No.71439691

The wall is frigging huge and comprised of countless souls, right? Doesn't seem likely there are that many atheists or less-than-bare-minimum worshipers.

>> No.71439733

>>71439691
> Doesn't seem likely there are that many atheists
Pretty likely if you remember that an atheist is someone who does not believe in *made up* gods.
With whole pantheons of actually existing gods, absolute majority of people will be by-the-book atheists, providing an endless stream of building material for the Wall.

>> No.71439760

>>71439330
When planescape came out there was no wall idiot.

>> No.71439816

>>71439760
The wall, the false, and the faithless, were all established in the Avatar Trilogy in '89.
Planescape was '94.

Now if you want to argue the whole "it's there because people have to believe in gods" thing, you could push that. After all that was part of the sweeping 2e changes that TSR made to the settings. As >>71439361 said 3e doubled down on it by saying "When the wall was removed, people stopped giving a fuck about being good people and stopped caring about gods" because the 3e writers were a bunch of teenage atheists in adult bodies.

But saying the wall wasn't around before planescape is outright wrong.

>> No.71439872
File: 25 KB, 474x244, TakeThatAtheism.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71439872

>>71439816
>bunch of teenage atheist in adult bodies.
The fuck does that even mean?
Writers weren't reverend enough to the Holy Concept Of Gods or something? Didn't say they prayers to Tyr daily?
Seriously, as if having christian bitchfits about demons/devils wasn't enough.

>> No.71439889

>>71439300
As mentioned by >>71439330 and >>71439361, it was originally created by Myrkul just for the sake of being a dick. It should be noted, though, that this was before the gods were dependent on mortals. Then the Time of Troubles happened, which was a clusterfuck that was largely caused by a handful of gods being dickass cunts, and which was resolved by mortal adventurers. Because of that, Ao implemented the "you need followers to keep your divinity"-rule, in order to make the gods take their jobs more seriously.

So when Kelemvor ascended to godhood and tried making some changes (not just tearing down the Wall, but also judging souls himself instead of sending them to their deities), the other gods came down hard on him.

>> No.71439909

>>71439229
It wasn't the Wall that the other gods were annoyed about. There was a very specific set of rules laid down about the Wall and Kelemvor's job. He does not give happy afterlives. He merely says whether a soul is Faithless or False. What he had been doing was judging souls based on how he thought they had acted in life.

This meant that those inclined away from conflict had cowered, while the brave became foolhardy. A fighter, rather than save his companions, foolishly jumps into a dragon's maw to be devoured, trusting it will be seen as brave so he gets a cushy afterlife, doesn't need to worry about any other god, even though it wasn't brave it was just stupid because the rest of his party died because of him. But because he had died bravely, Kelemvor rewarded him.

And there wasn't anything the other gods could do because by default all souls went to Kelemvor first. He literally was not doing his job as the Judge of the Dead.

Remember, as well, that the Wall predates "need belief to live" in FR. It also disappeared in 2e, appeared without explanation in 3e (once, because of MotB), was gone again in 4e (souls instead just withered and died in agonizing pain as they went into nonexistence), then rumour has it was back in 5e.

It's a case of too many writers, all disagreeing with each other on the Wall, why it's there, and what it's used for. It doesn't help that some writers are fedora tippers, writing in a setting with very well established religion.

>> No.71439911

>>71439872
It's pushing the idea that people are only religious because they're forced to be in some manner or another, which is stupid because it overlooks the fact that the religious impulse has been universal throughout human history. Even fedoralords engage in religious behaviour, they're just not aware of it.

>> No.71439917

>>71439300
It's incredibly hard to get walled. Most mortals will serve a patron god by by action even if they don't give more than lip service prayers, and that will count.

To be walled you need to functionally tip your fedora so fucking hard that literally every god in the pantheon tells you to fuck off.

>> No.71439927

>>71439889
That's what Kelemvor should have done. Judging the deeds of mortals who aren't his followers is not his fucking job. He deserved to get slapped down.

>> No.71439956

The wall is literally there to block the light at the end of your tunnel lmao

>> No.71439981

>>71439927
>t. Torm
Maybe give your followers actual reasons to worship you next time.

>> No.71440006

How hard it is or isn't to actually get Walled is irrelevant. The Gods have no more right to upset the workings of the Cosmos by consigning souls to absolute oblivion than anything else. They are there solely to enforce their domains as they themselves ruled when they brought Kelemvor to divine court for meddling in judging souls. The wall exists only for the Gods to cover their own asses and push the buck of their own actions onto mortals for being spergy enough to get Ao to rewrite reality to keep the Gods in line.

>> No.71440027

>>71439911
>people are only religious because they're forced to be in some manner or another
> Even fedoralords engage in religious behaviour
Goalpost shifting. First goalpost was "believing in literal gods", you pushed it way over vague "religious behaviour".
>people are only religious because they're forced to be in some manner or another
Keeping the goalpost strongly at first point, yes, to get masses of people to believe in gods, you need deliberate effort and purpose-built organization for that. People don't spontaneously wake up with the name of Helm on their lips, even if someone like Jack Chick believed otherwise.

>> No.71440058

>>71439229
Anyone ever run a high level campaign about tearing down the wall and putting the gods in a death camp?

>> No.71440097

>>71440027
>complains about goalposts shifting
>immediately after shifts the goalposts from people being forced to needing organisations in place
Ice cold take but ok

>> No.71440119

>>71440006
Kelemvor was the one upsetting Ao's Balance. Just like when Cyric upset it, the gods slapped him down as well.

>> No.71440167

>>71439981
That doesn't matter though anon. The problem is that Kelemvor gives people a heavenly afterlife based not on sending them to their gods, as he should, but by deciding to do it all himself. All souls go to him first, so he's choosing to upset reality and denying other gods what is their job. If Kelemvor is keeping the brave souls for himself, Torm doesn't get shit, because Kelemvor has first dibs on them. What he is supposed to do is assess if they have been Faithless or False. If they have, he keeps them. If they haven't, send them to their god, who gives them the afterlife they deserve.

Worse, he wasn't even judging souls based on their entire lives, only the manner of their death.

>> No.71440360

>>71439331
So the atheists are right. Funny.

>> No.71440373

>>71440058
>gods give you the seasons, the harvests, the sun and light, technology, advancement, victory in battle, mercy from your foes, justice, love, peace, magic, and skill in your profession. They bless their most faithful with the power to guard you from the undead, and accept you unto their bosom in paradise upon death
>can't be bothered to say thank you
No one in that wall doesn't have it coming, desu.

>> No.71440401

>>71439331
That doesn't sound very godlike to me.

What is it with Westerners and this diseased obsession with punishment?

>> No.71440421

>>71440401
Originally they didn't depend on belief at all. Then Ao in his infinite wisdom decided to make them require belief to survive. What followed was about fifty years of chaos, deicide, and then another hundred years of crap, before Ao removed that requirement, made a new one that would require gods to be hands off more, and things began going back to normal. Why the fuck Ao decided to do what he did, who knows.

>> No.71440424

On that note, I’m looking for a god for an antagonist priest-king in my FR game. He’s a Gnoll trying to build a nation (so Yeenoghu is out), doesn’t want to be enslaved by Bane, and uses a LOT of necromancy.

The players are opposed to him because he’s been working with the Zhentarim in the Moonsea area.

>> No.71440446

>>71440421
So they're not actually gods, only Ao is.

>> No.71440459

lol traddies

>> No.71440466

>>71440424
Tchazzar used to be a quasi-god in service to Tiamat, with a church and priesthood. He isn't any more, but you could have this priest king believing that he has been granted power and will use it to raise Tchazzar back to the heavens, when it might be Tiamat or who knows backing him.

Alternately, Jergal, one of the nastier leaning priests. Dude was fine with necromancy, it's Kelemvor who is 2000% against it.

>> No.71440478

>>71440446
Ao is an overgod, yes. A god of gods, the one who actually made Toril's crystal sphere and then added the gods to it, mortals, and so on. He isn't reliant on worship, and the only beings said to approximate him or be the same general sort of entity as him in 2e's time we're Asmodeus (the real one), the Lady of Pain, and the original World Serpent.

>> No.71440484

>>71439263
Pretty sure the wall of the faithless was for those that worshipped insincerely, hence being found false. Believing in general and just not being particularly gungho on a particular god, just landed you in Kelemvor's city.

>> No.71440500

>>71440401
>What is it with Westerners and this diseased obsession with punishment?
Jews have long controlled the flow of information into the West. It's why Israel is so important to them. They've used this position to cuck Westerners into this really pathetic form of doomerism and prostration.

>> No.71440560

>>71440446
The idea of gods as completely unfallible and infinitely powerful is a very modern one. Gods have flaws and weaknesses in the vast majority of mythologies and religions, even the Bible has a story where the Abrahamic god jobs to iron chariots.

>> No.71440565

>>71440446
Perhaps, but it is ao's design for you that you worship the lesser gods for whatever reason. Maybe ao is monad and knows that puny human minds are mostly not going to get it. Like gnosticism if the demiurge had actually been doing his job right after all.

>> No.71440576

>>71439229
>>>/v/

>> No.71440584

>>71440484
Believing in general but not being gung ho sends you to the god that best suits your outlook. The gods want you to worship them, and they are 99% of the time going to be happy to take you unless it's obvious, like some serial killer who worships Bahamut. It's stupid hard to get yourself sent to the Wall, especially since what god you truly worship may not even be clear to you until you die.

>> No.71440606

>>71440058
Unlikely, most people aren't raging faggots.

>> No.71440630

>>71440466
Well, it’s a pre-Time of Troubles game, so Tchazzar might still be an option. Hard to contact him tho, since his worshipper base is in Chessenta and the priest-king is north of the Moonsea.

Jergal apparently doesn’t like people unnaturally extending their lives, and the Priest is using the Magic Jar spell to bodysnatching to avoid old age since gnolls die at like 30.

Gods I’ve looked at-
Gorellik- kind of an idiot
Thyrm the Frost Hiant- no info on him
Surtr the Fire Giant- has nongiant followers, almost no info
Bane, is a giant cunt and I honestly can’t understand why anyone would worship him
Myrkul- doesn’t seem to care about ruling

>> No.71440666

>>71439229
I mean, where else are unaffiliated souls supposed to go?
You're not entitled to an afterlife maintained by the will of a diety.

That said, wall of faithless is retarded. Souls of the dead should be up for grabs by any diety so you have a reason to be faithful to good dieties; if they don't claim you immediately, a less savory diety eventually will.

>> No.71440729

>>71440560
>The idea of gods as completely [infallible] and infinitely powerful is a very modern one.
No, lol. No it's not. The concept of an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent deity predates Rome.

>> No.71440742

>>71440729
Get out of here Akhenaten.

>> No.71440774

>>71440729
Eh.
You ever notice how old Testament God is always angry and jeaous?

Indo-European, shamanic and other gods represent natural phenomena, and like those phenomena, can hep or hinder man according to their nature.

Representative deities are far older than abstract ones, conceptually.

I mean "modern" isn't the word I'da used either though.

>> No.71440789

>>71440774
Congrats on contributing nothing to the conversation. Do you at least feel better?

>> No.71440857

>>71440500
It comes from Catholicism and original sin, you dumb cunt.

>> No.71440874

>>71440857
Exactly: Jews cucking the West.

>> No.71440895

>>71440857
That's the same thing in his mind.
Of course, never mind that the diminishment of man from a past golden age through sin and hubris are common elements of bronze age Mediterranean myth in general, as are places of pubishment in the afterlife.

>> No.71440899
File: 143 KB, 1024x661, planescape_map_by_monorok-d4r18wg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71440899

>>71440666

>where else are unaffiliated souls supposed to go?

The Outer Planes.

>> No.71440931

>>71440484

No. False people are not thrown into the Wall.

>> No.71440943

>>71440630
I guess some candidates could be...

>Ghaunadaur
Generally fond of monsters, with a might makes right attitude. Maybe not the best fit for someone trying to make a regimented kingdom, though.

>Gargauth
Basically a god of evil viziers, think Sauron in Númenor and you've got a good picture of him. He's not much good for military might, but I could see him being happy to sponsor an up-and-coming power.

>Shar
Yeah yeah, she's a bit mainstream, but she's a good enough pick for [insert Dark God here].

I also thought about Velsharoon, but apparently he didn't ascend until after the ToT.

>>71440774
>I mean "modern" isn't the word I'da used either though.
Well, modern in the sense of it being the mainstream line of thinking. The point was that anon was talking out of his ass when he said that gods aren't gods if they're flawed or answer to other entities.

>> No.71440945
File: 14 KB, 200x262, F120DC95-3830-4971-B175-DC60EE689D9C.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71440945

This is a question that’s long bugged me- why does anyone worship Bane, at all? His dogma is that you are his slaves, and maybe if you suckle his toes you’ll get to boss around lesser slaves.

That’s a really shit deal. Even other evil gods have better offer than that.

>> No.71440963

>>71440943
>gods aren't gods if they're flawed or answer to other entities.
but that's true though. that's part of why the trinity is heresy.

>> No.71440985
File: 47 KB, 321x344, 1583749148159.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71440985

>>71440945
>you’ll get to boss around lesser slaves.

How is that not a great offer.

>> No.71441014

>Worshipping Ao sends you to the Wall.

>> No.71441021
File: 413 KB, 588x720, 1456440417232.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71441021

>>71440945
He's a big guy for you.

>> No.71441067

>>71440943
>Ghaunadaur
Gross, but a possibility.

>Gargauth
Huh. Terrible for a whole realm, but actually super fitting for the character. He could worship Gargauth personally and encourage other faiths for the common folk.

>Shar
The whole “never strive to better yourself” is a bit of a stickler.

Gargauth seems like a solid option though, thanks!

>> No.71441166

Fun fact, if your god dies, you also count as faithless.

So, if Torm got killed, all his worshippers who didn't get the memo in time would end up with a choice of selling themselves to devils, or ending up in the wall.

Fun.

>> No.71441193

>>71441166
Goos thing the best god is never involved in inter deity drama and no one wants to steal her portfolio.

>> No.71441195

>>71441166
>mortal souls are just chips on the table in a cosmic game of poker.
typical.

>> No.71441454

>>71440874
So what are you, some gay-ass Nordic neopagan LARPing as a viking?

>> No.71441459

>>71440058
Hi, Bishop.

>> No.71441461

>>71441454
Faggot.

>> No.71441474

>>71441461
Oooh, how cutting

>> No.71441525

>>71440424
Myrkul would be my go to.
Dude was a cock and reveled in it.
It was canon that when he was bored he would show up randomly at funerals and then quietly point at one of the people there before disappearing.
Not even someone who was going to die next, he just liked to unsettle fuckers.

>> No.71441540

>>71440963
piss off, slav.

>> No.71441547

>>71441461
lmao get more mad, go ask Loki to curse me or something, neckbeard.

>> No.71441581

>>71440945
His full dogma in F&A actually presents two very important mindsets
1) The strong rule the weak, if you are someone of power, you are entitled to ruling over those who are below you.
This is the interpretation used by elites, nobles, etc who feel their birth rite, their training, their money, etc, all represent the power to rule.
2) You shall serve none but Bane
This is the interpretation often used by the masses. This is why there have been slave rebellions in Bane's name. Because no one can be the boss of you except for Bane and those he has chosen (ranking members of the cult). To pray to Bane as a peasant is to say you desire the strength to destroy those who would think they can control you.

>> No.71441602

>>71440401
>That doesn't sound very godlike to me.
>Questioning the gods

Thats a wallin'

>> No.71441663

>>71441581
>1 Peter 2:18
you got me doin a big think over here

>> No.71441705

>>71440373
They give none of those things, and even if they do someone else can after they've been tortured to death in a divine prison camp.

>> No.71441751

>>71440606
>I'm a cuck to megalomaniac outsiders

O k

>> No.71441854

>>71439229, >>71439263, >>71439300
>>71439306, >>71439361
Yeah, the version of it outside the videogame basically works like “you need to reject all gods, even their existence”. If you don’t “choose” a specific god to worship that’s fine, because you get sorted into an afterlife most suited to your alignment and choices in life anyway.
Worshipped no particular god but lived the life of a dutiful soldier and protector who believed service and laws was paramount? You go to Helm’s afterlife.
Worshipped nobody but yourself but played the role of a demagogue who gathered power using fear and manipulation and used the law to oppress and control! Congrats, you work for Bane.

And so on and so forth.

>> No.71441959

>>71440424, >>71440466
Myrkul is also back, he doesn’t give a fuck about Necromancy. Kelemvor is still the Judge of the Dead and seems to sort people into the afterlife, but Myrkul is now the god of the fear of death and undeath.

>> No.71442055

>>71439353
The dude lists his "pronouns" in his twitter bio, anyone that does that will be going to hell.

>> No.71442064

>>71440630
>Bane, is a giant cunt and I honestly can’t understand why anyone would worship him
It’s all about the sales pitch.
Our group has a priest of Bane as the main reoccurring villain so far, but he doesn’t publicly do anything openly evil and follows the laws of the city, even engaging in charitable works on occasion while openly preaching that the current social order is corrupt and that only by serving Bane can you TRULY be protected by the chaotic times that the current group of leaders seem unable to prevent or stop. Sure you’ll have to give up some of your freedoms, but what’s that compared to your life and security and destruction of your enemies?
It’s really basic demagoguery honestly and isn’t too inventive in the DM’s part, but frankly basic-ass demagoguery works really well in real life too, there’s numerous historical examples who toss out that line and it works out just fine for them.

Now, being in the priesthood of Bane changes things, and you know that people who convert that way are just plebs who are to be used and discarded, and only the truly faithful are worthy of being led by Bane, but hey; every tyrant has his ass-kissing inner circle.

>> No.71442093

>>71441067
No problem! One thing you could do with Gargauth is to have your guy straight up lie to the populace about his dogma. He's not a very well-known god, and as a god of political deception and treachery he'd probably find it hilarious.

>> No.71442107

>>71440945
See >>71442064.
It’s not like every person who worships Bane actually knows his full dogma, just like how most Catholics and Protestants can barely quote the Bible correctly, if they can at all.
Really, only the priesthood of Band needs to know that shit, and they aren’t obligated to tell anyone the truth, just like how every tyrant ever doesn’t just straight-up preach “so basically I’m up here for my own power-hungry nature and ego and none of you matter to me”. He instead sells them a line; “get behind me and I’ll get you what you want”.

>> No.71442143

>>71442064
>but he doesn’t publicly do anything openly evil and follows the laws of the city
What city does your campaign take place in?

>> No.71442150
File: 365 KB, 612x407, 1582943374278.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71442150

>>71440401
>I know better than the divine

>> No.71442183

>>71441959
This is pre-Time of Troubles, Myrkul hasn’t died yet. Might pair him and Silvanus for death and rebirth.

>>71442093
Hmm. Looking at him closely, he explicitly seeks to betray his own followers to fuck with them. That could be a fun twist, but the antagonist would want to avoid being betrayed for obvious reasons. Doesn’t matter if he’s not aware of that part though.

>> No.71442216

>>71442143
Our house game takes place in Tethyr and Bane has a new temple in Darromar because the faithful of Bane helped rebuild the city after all the Spellplague/4e shit went down. Plus Tethyr has a history with worshipping Band during the Interregnum and Mintar and the Knights of the Black Hand aren’t too far away anyway.

Currently we’re suspecting that the intense unrest in the nation is at least in part supported by the church of Bane, but we’re unable to prove it yet.

>> No.71442224

>>71441854
So in order to get the Wall you need to be an absolutely retarded asshole that actively hates the very idea of the Gods? That actually makes sense. In order to get that punishment you have to fundamentally oppose one of the core aspects the setting is built on, it's like the spiritual equivalent of a Darwin award.

>> No.71442284

>>71442224
It requires a person of really extreme arrogance or intense ennui to get there, yeah. Even if most people never see gods, they know priests exists and get magic from them.

>> No.71442584

>>71442224
Even some gods wouldn't mind that sort of follower. Cyric reveled in the idea of followers who hate the gods, as long as they were causing chaos and strife.

>> No.71442616

>>71439459
They manage reality by order of Lord Ao.
If they decay from lack of worship and their divine portfolios are left unclaimed, reality runs derelict and will begin to decay into the Far Realm. And Lord Ao is gonna be pissed, which is arguably worse. That guy is unpredictable.

>> No.71442645

>>71442584
Alright, so how the actual fuck do you get to the wall then?

>> No.71442660

>>71442616
Ao is basically the God of Editorially-Driven Plot Interference, so his powers come from outside the game universe and instead directly from TSR and WotC.

>> No.71442662

>>71442584
Yeah, but Cyric is an idiot who only managed to get anywhere by riding on the coattails of other, better gods and trying to snake their domains. The moment Bhaal, Bane, and Myrkul came back, they kicked the everloving shit out of him and took what he stole with no issue.

>> No.71442709

>>71442645
I think it's a case where no god will claim you, and/or you claim no god.

Not even a false situation, but where all the gods go "no, this fucker's too much of an asshole for our realm" you end up heading towards the wall, and there it's a case of signing up to the devils, hoping the demons rip you out, or ending up dissolved.

>> No.71442758

>>71442645
Fail to please the gods that would otherwise take you. Be an antitheist but not a murdering rebel. Cyric will think you're boring as fuck and not pluck you from the Fugue Plane.

>> No.71442790

>>71442758
>the peaceful antitheists are the ones punished, not the truly militant atheists.
lul.

>> No.71442812

>>71442790
The militant atheists usually go to hell or the abyss, though.

>> No.71442821

>>71439229
False
The wall takes only the faithless. Those who were false, or have not yet been taken by their patron, live in the grey city

>> No.71442897

>>71442790
>>71442812
You have to put in a LOT of work to impress the dark gods.
Hell's ranks swell for the legions of meager sinners. To put a smile on Cyric's face means you have to be exceptional.

>> No.71443018

>>71442284
>intense ennui
What, "after everything I've done, none of them would ever take me" or something like that?

>> No.71443048

>not opting out of this bullshit system by going full Lich

>> No.71443402

>>71443048
>not opting out by destroying the entire system by summoning Pandorym

>> No.71443713

>>71443402
>not perfecting the spirit eater and devouring the gods until the heat death of the universe

>> No.71444215

Akachi did nothing wrong.

>> No.71444563

So even for those who don't approve of the various bullshit the Time of Troubles introduced, the Dead Three are evidence that mortals with enough wit, determination, brutality, and luck can achieve godhood, and even lead to others achieving divinity.
What kinds of requirements or steps would be involved, if you had to determine them?

>> No.71444699

>>71439229
>inb4 a cult starts worshipping the Wall as a deity

>> No.71444848

>>71444563
The Dead Three were literally handed their godhoods, though. In fact, almost every once-mortal deity in FR was sponsored by another god, and the few exceptions did their usurping during the Time of Troubles or the Dawn Cataclysm.

The only mortal to ever achieve divinity completely through their own power is Karsus, and everyone knows how that went.

>> No.71444884

>>71444848
What about Finder? Or does stealing the power of Moander count as sponsorship?

>> No.71444947

>>71444848
To be fair, Karsus didn't just become a god of his own power, he tried to usurp the literal embodiment of TIME AND MAGIC.
That's a bit fucking hardcore no matter how skilled you are.

>> No.71444950

>>71444884
It's a clusterfuck, but apparently Finder killed Moander in 1358 DR, during the Time of Troubles.

>> No.71445013
File: 742 KB, 648x534, the wall.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71445013

>>71439229
>This is the Wall of Faithless. It devours souls not only of all atheists, but also everyone who didn't worship the gods hard enough.

wrong

>> No.71445077

>>71439229
10/10 worldbuilding.

>> No.71445110
File: 75 KB, 400x663, Shar[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71445110

You know who get a shit deal? The poor fucks who spend their lives worshipping Ibrandul (who was a pretty reasonable dude for the most part), only to wind up in Shar's slice of the afterlife when they die. That's gotta sting.

>> No.71445131

>>71440500
>really pathetic form of doomerism and prostration.
You've never read up on how superstitious and fatalistic the OG pagans were, right?

>> No.71445355

>>71439361
>they're just powerful outsiders, why worship them
I mean in the context of D&D, they're not wrong.

>> No.71445588

>>71444848
Valkur was a once-mortal whose divine status was a result of besting Umberlee.

>> No.71445646

>>71445588
Not actually confirmed anywhere. No one really knows if Valkur was ever a mortal or not, and if he was, no one knows who he used to be. It could be true, but it could also just be a story his followers made up.

>> No.71445787

>>71445646
Orcus then. Explicitly was once mortal and achieved godhood.

>> No.71446001
File: 185 KB, 600x992, Baalphegor.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71446001

>>71445787
Sure, the demon lords and archdevils can sometimes achieve divinity, and a good chunk of them were once mortals. Although considering every once-mortal demon and devil starts off by having their former identity erased as a larva, and then have to spend several thousand years climbing the infernal/abyssal hierarchies just to even get the chance at lordship, I'm not sure it's a very reliable roadmap.

>> No.71447058
File: 1.44 MB, 723x1200, d6uudgb-1739636e-fe5b-4767-a7e9-24d36568b568.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71447058

>>71445110
You knnnow what to do, my boy.

>> No.71447175

>>71442055
I have "Jim/Jay" as my pronouns on Twitter.

Am I going to hell?

>> No.71447419

>>71444699
>namefag
Fuck off.

>> No.71447582

>>71439229
I, too, think MotB is underrated and way better than NWN1 and 2.

>> No.71447825

>>71443018
No because that implies you did stuff and would probably get a god's attention. The ennui means doing and feeling absolutely nothing, and what you do perform you do it with only barely enough motivation to get it done, with no real thoughts or feelings on it one way or another. To get WALL'D means you don't just lack faith in a particular god, but in the very mechanics of living and the universe. You are spiritually dead and inert and have nothing to offer to anyone. So, you become what you lived as: a chunk of matter just sitting there being useless.

>> No.71447874

>>71442897
Say I wanted to get a decent afterlife, but I'm a Chaotic Evil egoist that has a fetish for hyperviolence. How many kills, sacrifices, etc. is the baseline to earn anything beside eternal damnation?

>> No.71447985

>>71442055
My pronouns are he/he. Am I a faggot?

>> No.71448268

>>71447874
Depends on the era.
If Bhaal is alive, you're basically set as long as you murder a few people as stylishly as possible.
One of the "famous" stories told by his cultists is about one of their best assassins who liked to tell people he was coming before he would kill them, and then would murder the shit out of the target and everyone who the target arranged for protection.

>> No.71448376

>>71439229
>playing Hasbro settings instead of making your own

>> No.71448496

>>71442645
You basically have to choose it. You can't end up there by mistake.

>> No.71449184

>>71439273
Sounds to me like he knows exactly how it works

>> No.71449334

>>71448496
Even that is relatively difficult, since if you go too far in any direction a god will appreciate it.

>> No.71449359

>>71449334
>since if you go too far in any direction a god will appreciate it.
can't go there if you're too true neutral though. there's basically this micron thin line you have to be standing on the moment you die while holding a specific collection of books, stacked in specific order, and having eaten a large pizza with banana peppers and pepperoni exactly 71 hours and 44 minutes ago, it seems like.

>> No.71449559

>>71440401
>What is it with Westerners and this diseased obsession with punishment?
It clearly comes from christianity and judaism where you've got an all-knowing, all-powerful, and supposedly-benevolent god who gives living beings their own wills and then viciously punishes those who don't do exactly as he says.
One of the explanations used to get around the problem of evil is to claim that this world is the best world that could possibly exist, and that all suffering that exists is deserved, prevents greater suffering, or leads to some future good that outweighs the suffering.
There's also that common protestant belief where god directly rewards and punishes people for their during their lifetimes, so anyone who lives a life of misfortune or suffering is being punished and deserves their fate.

>> No.71449950

>>71449559
>god directly rewards and punishes people for their during their lifetimes, so anyone who lives a life of misfortune or suffering is being punished and deserves their fate.
I thought that was the evangelical explanation as to why rich people should be rich.

>> No.71449987

>>71448268
Let's say it's the current era, and I'm a random human in a random trade city on the Sword Coast.

>> No.71450013

>>71449559
>>71449950
Wasn't there a biblical story about how a rich man burning in hell was being punished for the life he led, while a poor man was rewarded in heaven for enduring? Somewhere in the book of Psalms, I believe.

>> No.71450143

>>71450013
>evangelicals
>reading the Bible

>> No.71450243

>>71450013
Christ himself stated that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

>> No.71451226

>>71444848
Even Karsus only did it because Mystryl let it happen rather than stopping it. Why she did is unclear, though it may have been because to do otherwise would be against her portfolio, versus her successor in Mystra had a slightly altered viewpoint.

>> No.71451287

>>71440945
With Evil Gods, I got the sense that it's not really normal people deciding to worship him, it's really evil bastards.

Like, if I'm a child-murderer and there's a god of Child Murder, I'm getting paid twice for acting out my perversions. I might even get a room better than the Big Fire below.

>> No.71451502

>>71445355
Yeah but Ao says do it faggot or your realm gets dusted.

>> No.71451509

>>71451287
Really, there's two types of Evil gods. On the one hand you have the ones with very practical and/or prominent portfolios, like Umberlee, Beshaba, Malar, Talona, etc. Regular people don't like them very much, but they'll still throw them prayers and tithes in order to avoid their wrath or when seeking success in their domain. Most hunters will whisper a prayer to Malar, just about every sailor in the Realms give tithes to Umberlee, Beshaba gets symbolically invited to weddings in order to avoid misfortune in marriage, etc. Even Shar's church puts on a front as a Scientology-esque self-help cult for the grieving.

Then on the other hand you have deities whose portfolio is just Evil with little upside beyond personal power, and who only secure large followings because their clerics manage to force their faith on others. That'd be your Banes, your Lolths, and so on.

>> No.71451601
File: 147 KB, 875x679, sopvmi_1280.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71451601

>>71440630
>Bane, is a giant cunt and I honestly can’t understand why anyone would worship him
Umberlee is literally called "The Bitch Queen Goddess of Oceans" by everyone including her priestesses and is worshiped by anyone who wants to travel by boat because she drowns anyone who doesn't at least offer a silent prayer of "Umberlee please don't drown me".

Simple Dawrinistic survival bias results in most fishermen and sailors worshiping Umberlee.

>> No.71451886

>>71451509
>Regular people don't like them very much
>Malar
Reminder that one of the rites of priesthood among his clergy is to find someone who cannot take care of themselves (whether it be due to maiming, loss of family, or age), and for at least one winter providing for them, to show that you are such an apex predator you can easily acquire enough resources to sustain not only your life but the life of another.
Additional reminder that in areas with active Malar cults, one of their ritual festivals is to lead non cult members in a great hunt, where they obtain enough food to help sustain the village/hamlet/whatever for the winter.

>> No.71451977

>>71449359
Pretty much. That's why it's so relatively small despite having existed since the dawn of creation.

You have to fundamentally object to the very concept of gods existing. Like, not even 'I do not worship you as gods since I believe you are just extremely powerful mortals', just straight up 'gods cannot exist, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, calling yourself a god is bullshit, fuck you'. You have to stamp your feet and throw a tantrum while they try to sort you into an afterlife that suits you and basically refuse every attempt to reconcile or accept any other viewpoint.

Getting to the Wall of the Faithless requires an active effort.

>> No.71453953

>>71449559
>being this dumb and fedora'd
Get a load of this idiot.

God grants man free will.

Man abuses free will for evil.

God punishes evil.

>b-but muh FREEDUMS sputters the neckbeard

>> No.71454150

>>71451886
Malar's church is also very popular in Cormyr, because Malar incarnated there during the Time of Troubles and therefore Cormyr benefited from priests who could cast divine magic.

>> No.71455047

>>71454150
Cormyr is also full of nobles who dig hunting and/or are pretty ruthless so Malar worship isn't a big shock there

>> No.71456348

>>71451509
Generally a lot of the evil gods have good practices for humanity, even the Bitch Queen represents the simple idea of respecting the sea/ocean because sailing is fucking dangerous.
I am almost certain we don't see more about that, because TSR had rules saying evil is never allowed to be shown in a positive light.

>> No.71458139

>>71447874
how in general do you get a good afterlife if youre evil?
it moslty just seems to be hell and evil gods afterlives also tend to be shite

>> No.71458293

>>71439229
I don't really get why good deities tolerate the Wall. It literally serves no purpose but as a sociopathic warning. This is why having Hell be just an evil mortal world is dumb. People who are evil should not be able to advance in hell if normie atheists get an eternity of Wall

>> No.71458375

>>71458293
They generally don't. They get tortured and mutilated until they lose pretty much all sense of their original self and are reborn as lowly and wretched lemures, who spend the rest of their existence as slave labor or cannon fodder for the Blood War.

>> No.71458394

>>71458293
To get the wall, no god must make any claim on you AND the judge of the dead can't place you anywhere. Usually because your soul throws a fit at the thought of being in any way related to a god.

>> No.71458471

>>71458394
>To get the wall, no god must make any claim on you AND the judge of the dead can't place you anywhere. Usually because your soul throws a fit at the thought of being in any way related to a god.

Would it not make more sense just to destroy the soul then? Again, the Wall just seems sociopathic. It's just...there. The very existence of it just seems like pointless cruelty.

>> No.71458505

>>71458394
>Usually because your soul throws a fit at the thought of being in any way related to a god.
So then put it in the time out bin and let it be alone?

>> No.71458544

>>71458471
it protects the city of the dead from demons or some shit

>> No.71458595

>>71458505
The wall is a time out corner that lasts until the soul fades into the material construction of the wall for eternity.

>> No.71459011

>>71439636
>people in D&D worshiping gods that do not exist in the setting in principle?

Worship to false entities is scooped up by random opportunistic outsiders, who pretend to be that entity if there's enough worship going into it

>> No.71459064

>>71439691
>The wall is frigging huge and comprised of countless souls, right? Doesn't seem likely there are that many atheists or less-than-bare-minimum worshipers.

Judging by the game it's maybe like 6-8 meters tall, which fits with a relatively small proportion of people

>> No.71461164

Why can't you be a Paladin of The Wall?

>> No.71461362

>>71461164
Because it's not a sapient entity capable of granting divine blessings.

Boy, that was easy.

>> No.71461456

>>71461362
Paladins don't need to recieve faith from sentient sources as of years ago, checkmate atheists

>> No.71461496

>>71461456
They do in the Forgotten Realms. Since the grey box, the FR Adventurer's Guide, the FRCS, and even the SCAG.

>> No.71461681

>>71440401
>westerners
>diseased obsession with punishment

Gee you've never looked at other religions or societies have you?

>> No.71461709

>>71461496
Paladins derive power from their oath, so while you could have am oath dedicated to death, judgement, and the wall, you can't be a paladin of any entity alone.

>> No.71461715

>>71440630
Surtr and all Giant gods are basically just copy-pastes of their own real world equivalent.

>> No.71461751

>>71440899
>cube realm
>dotted line realm

what fucking planes are those?

>> No.71461792

>>71442216
>you're in Tethyr

bro watch your ass if I was a DM with a evil gods bid those Black Hand aren't far

>> No.71461847

>>71450243
Still one of the best burns in the bible

>> No.71461880

>>71458471
>destroying the soul and upsetting the cosmic forever balance of the astra sea

bad idea

>>71461496
you can choose to derive power from a deitiy, powerful being (ala Warlocks) or literally just a divine oath sworn to the universe, if you choose to be an oathsworn there's nothing against the rules for praising or advocating the virtues of the Wall.

>> No.71461909
File: 636 KB, 1000x1011, Planes-5e.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71461909

>>71461751

Acheron and Carceri.

>> No.71463726

>>71461709
Anon, the Oaths come from deities. You can't just swear on any old thing and get magic powers, it's a specific way to follow certain gods that support those principes. Same with druids circles and nature gods.

>> No.71463812

>>71458595
So a slow and savage execution. How edgy.

>> No.71463937

>>71439300
Mostly was a way to keep the setting polytheistic.
When Planescape came out it was >>71439330 mostly because Athars fuck over how gods used to (and from what is known still) work in the Realms.
Basically it was a how the fuck are you this retarded to "Atheists" who live in a world where gods had literally been shoved into mortal bodies and even then had active roles (all the fucking shit Moander got up to really makes them look like idiots).

>> No.71463991

>>71463726
It explicitly isn't. While an individual paladin may be a devout worshipper who takes an oath in the name of their god, the power is an internal one, hence powered by charisma.

>> No.71464186

>>71444950
It was after. When he was still Nameless, it was mentioned (before he pushed Moander's shit in with the help of the Saurials) that the Time of troubles happened between the time he was part of a life creation thing (Alias) and when he helped another Wyvernspur and Olive do some shit with a stone.

>> No.71464239

>>71463991
>It explicitly isn't
Then quote or screenshot it, 'cause that is how it works.

>> No.71464706
File: 98 KB, 640x360, chris avellone.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71464706

>>71439229
Did someone say Planescape?

>> No.71464754
File: 589 KB, 720x1280, Screenshot_20200314-202552.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71464754

>>71464239

>> No.71464823

>>71464754
There's nothing there that says Paladin powers come from within, though. Just that the oath can be sworn in any location - which is true, 'cause their deity is going to see it anyway.

>> No.71464983

>>71463812
Given that you basically need to choose the wall it could be an eternity of barbed wire anal rape and still be fine. You only end up there if that's where you want to be.

>> No.71465228

>>71442224
I don't think you need to go that far.
Just not following any god is enough,
Although, even if you don't didn't follow any god, they might still let you into their afterlife. For instance, just being virtuous might be enough for some good gods, as long as you didn't actively go against them.

>> No.71465313

>>71464983
>You only end up there if that's where you want to be
Not really. Besides, it's not just stubborn atheists at risk.
Anyone who follows a god most of their life, then betrays their teachings but dies before finding the favor of a different god, will probably end up there.

>> No.71465332
File: 168 KB, 686x273, pally.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71465332

>>71464823

>> No.71465383

>>71465332
Yes? Cleric spells also depend on the strength of their personal faith, doesn't mean the power doesn't come from without. Warlocks are CHA casters too, for that matter, and they definitely get their powers externally.

>> No.71465495

>>71465313
>then betrays their teachings
A: so don't don't do that
B: its unclear as to what is actually required for that. Does bane really not want you anymore because you patted a puppy once?
C: if you don't deserve the wall but no one wants you kelemvor can keep you in his city
D: before your review devils get the chance to try and buy your eternal servitude instead, so you still get an option to avoid walling

Face it, the wall is for people that belong there. Its heaven for people who hate the notion of going to heaven.

>> No.71465611

>>71465383
Clerics can be empowered by non-deities as well, you rock banger

>> No.71465725
File: 623 KB, 1014x1120, Sword Coast Adventurers Guide Paladins.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71465725

>>71461709
The reason I said "in the Forgotten Realms" is because as a rule in the FR, divine classes must ALWAYS get power from a deity.
Even when priests of the spheres were a thing in AD&D, the FR book specifically said that.
This is from the SCAG (5e) that says Paladins are goodly people who are also devoted to a deity.

>> No.71466012

>>71439245
Is that angel supposed to be a chick or a dude? I honestly can't tell.

>> No.71466059

>>71458394
Wouldn't it make more sense just to wash off the memories and reincarnate the soul?

>> No.71466124

>>71466012
It's anime style. Unless it has FF or bigger tits, it's a dude.

>> No.71466361

>>71465725
Read what you posted, it literally says
>most
not all.

>> No.71466409

>>71466361
Oddly it actually says both.
In the beginning it says a god makes that person a apladin when they're a honorable AND has great devotion.
The second section says most.
So I guess 5e is trying to have it both ways?

>> No.71466453

>>71465611
That isn't true in 5E, nor in any edition of FR.

>> No.71466553

>>71466124
hot

>> No.71466838

>>71466453
>That isn't true in 5E

clerics without deities are explicitly covered in the DMG and somewhere else (xanathars IIRC)

>> No.71467002

>>71466838
Both of those only say that it's an option when homebrewing, not that it's the case in any established setting.

>> No.71467697

>>71466838
Great, but in the Forgotten Realms clerics and paladins need deities.

>> No.71467792
File: 60 KB, 650x893, Paladin3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71467792

>>71439229
Sorry, but my faith in humanity is unshakable. Sometimes it is faith in the folly of man, sometimes in the good of man, but I always have faith. Your wall scares me not. My power comes from within, and as a Man I will not let myself down.

>> No.71467832

>>71467792
Bah, nevermind, didn't realize it was an aspect of a shitty world where gods literally interfere with mortal affairs.

>>71467697
>paladins need deities
Incorrect, paladins have always been avatars of JUSTICE and gotten their power from their faith in JUSTICE. It has changed a little in recent times, but paladins still derive power from their oaths.

>> No.71467912

>>71467832
Wrong- in Forgotten Realms magic comes from one of three sources- the Weave, the Shadow Weave, and Gods.

Paladins are divine magic users, and derive their abilities from gods. This is why you see Paladins of Helm, of Tyr, of Illmater, but never a paladin unaffiliated.

>> No.71469362

>>71440424

There is a demon lord gnoll that uses necromancy.

Maybe a bid fro godhood?

>> No.71469403

>>71445110

Didn't Ibrandul come back? As in Shar goofed up by action too much in line with Ibrandul and caused him to reincarnate?

>> No.71469420

>>71458293

Hell and the Abyss are not punishments in D&D. One of the fundamentals of the setting is that afterlife are not some sort of karma, they are in harmony with the life you led. If you lived causing chaos and evil, your soul strenghtens the chaos and evil in the universe.

>> No.71469432

>>71458471

Destroying a soul does bad things to the balance of the universe. The wall dissolves it so it goes back to being a building block for the universe

>> No.71469588

>>71440466

Jergal works for Kelemvor.

>> No.71469621

>>71467912
I'm the guy who posted >>71465725
And after the discussion in this thread I decided to go back and check.
Interestingly
>Grey Box says Cavaliers/Paladins may be dedicated to a god or a noble house of LG alignment
I will say that due to the fact Cavaliers and Paladins share the same description, it could be meaning that one has to be dedicated to nobles and one has to be dedicated to gods, or it could be both can have either, but it's lacking clarity.
>AD&D 2e
This is where it says all divine magic must come from god worship
>D&D 3e
They continue what AD&D 2e said
>D&D 4e
Divine power can come from anywhere
>D&D 5e
Paladins as in the earlier post are both described as being always devoted to a god, and most of them are devoted. So it's iffy.
Clerics however are described as always blessed by a god, even if they're not aware of which one.

>> No.71469627

>>71469403
>5e lore
Ibrandul came back because every deity in older books came back.
Even Zandilar is back, and to do that they had to kill Sharess off, but WotC would rather pretend Sharess never existed in the first place.

>> No.71469648

>>71469588
Jergal works for the "office of death". He's allowed to undermine the current god of death if he believes it furthers the cosmic forces of the universe.
Jergal is also kind of implied to be an ancient being that just showed up one day without being one of Selune & Shar's creations, so he's just generally weird, if not an alien force altogether that simply came to Toril for observational purposes, given that his early lore says he just wants to document all of everything from the beginning to the end of the universe.

>> No.71469657
File: 2.61 MB, 480x360, 1583688570148.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71469657

>>71439229
BASED

>> No.71469745
File: 160 KB, 800x600, ackshullee.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71469745

>>71469621
>>71467912
Factually incorrect. See pic related. DnD player's handbook 3.5e page 43 and DnD player's handbook 5e page 82
>Where does the divine power come from?
Who fucking knows? My headcanon was that it was basically a fund set up by the Lawful Good gods who all donated a bit of power and paladins draw from that.

My point being, paladins do not need to be devoted to a god and are not servants of any god as it relates to their class. You don't argue that rangers are servants of nature gods, do you?

>> No.71469768

>>71447825
So vegetables go to the wall. Still-born go to the wall- hell, do babies go? They literally didn't live enough to do anything to impress the gods. Is there a god of babies who takes them or something?

>> No.71469770

>>71469745
Setting lore Trump's default lore.
While what you are saying is true for generic D&D, Forgotten Realms books typically disagree.
The earlier post already had the example from the Paladins page in the SCAG, which is admittedly wishy-washy, while the Cleric page in the SCAG says that all clerics get power from gods (though not all clerics are worshippers, some receive the blessings due to being chosen).
Both of those being in the SCAG means they only apply to the Forgotten Realms, which is relevant here because the Wall of the Faithless is specifically Forgotten Realms in origin.
For 3e you have to look in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (typically abbreviated as FRCS 3e) for the relevant info there, but it does say all divine power comes from gods.

>Rangers
Admittedly, I don't remember what the SCAG has written for them verbatim, but FR Adventures in 2e and FRCS 3e both said that Rangers do in fact need to serve a nature deity in the Forgotten Realms to receive magic.

>> No.71469777

>>71469768
Babies don't have souls, everyone knows this

>> No.71469905

>>71465332
>>71464754
Brother, how did you screencap the wrong parts so easily? Crikey.

>>71464239 look at >>71469745

>> No.71469911

>>71469621
FR has a rule that all divine magic does come from, or originate with, gods (it uses the Weave to get to the Caster for most, but can use one of the 3-4 other systems or the god in question might want to expend the power and effort needed to create an alternate system - Mystra allows access freely now anyway for like 99.9% of things, so there's low risk of oversight). It came up as a thing when Ur-Priest was made as a PrC in 3rd, because it needed to be specifically explained that in Forgotten Realms, Ur-Priests are actually getting power from a god on the sly (instead of the Ur-Priest fooling the gods, the gods are fooling the Ur-Priest for their own reasons).

>> No.71469924

>>71469770
>Setting lore Trump's default lore.
Can't argue that I suppose. FR has always been kind of wonky though. For instance, I believe I read once that Drizzt is an unwitting champion of Lolth.

>> No.71469930

>>71469924
That's a fan theory.
In the books he gets power from Mielikki and has very little to do with other drow after his leaving the Underdark.

>> No.71470066

>>71469924
Lolth literally had a giant bitch fit that had all her clerics clutching their ears in pain when Drizzt picked Mielikki over Lolth's recent attempt to turn him to her.

>> No.71470325

>>71469905
I did look at it. It says "as much as", not "instead of". That's just what was talked about earlier, power bestowed by a god and enhanced by personal faith. Yes, inner strength is what separates a great Paladin from a mediocre one, but they still need the blessing of a deity first. Without that spark, they're just a really enthusiastic Fighter.

>> No.71470394

>>71439229
aaaannnnnnd i'm playing it again.
MoTB was simply just amazing in its dialogues.

Also the voice actress for Kaelyn makes me feel all warm inside.

>> No.71471109

>>71470325
No they don't? "As much as" does not imply "MUST HAVE JESUS FIRST." You would have a foot to stand on if the other clip didn't outright say "Paladins need not devote themselves to a single deity." Paladins don't need a god. And furthermore, the only reason Paladin magic is considered divine is for mechanic reasons. Magic is defined as either arcane or divine for the purpose of spell interactions and damage calculations.

At no point does it say in either book that a paladin gets their powers from a god. If you say it does the onus is on you to prove it now.

>> No.71471232

>>71471109
Anon, the PHB literally says that Paladins get their spells from prayer, "as a cleric does".

>> No.71471313

>>71469930
Gods can empower mortals without them knowing.or worshiping them.

Talos powered up Ruha's spells during the events of The Crucible: the Trial of Cyric the Mad.

>> No.71471724

>>71471232
No it """literally""" does not. Post screencaps, faggot.

>> No.71472048
File: 5 KB, 284x219, man yawning small.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71472048

Who cares? I don't use it, I think it's boring, trite, and needlessly edgy.

Earlier editions of D&D had better lore to begin with. Atheists or non-devout followers of Gods would instead have their souls dissipate among the elemental planes, their being becoming one with the elemental, building-blocks of creation. While they may lose their personality and memories and become a simple being, it perfectly fits their worldview and gives atheists a fitting, if still somewhat dark, afterlife.

>> No.71472068
File: 215 KB, 557x167, literally.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71472068

>>71471724
It literally fucking does.

>> No.71472226
File: 1.98 MB, 450x297, Catch Arrows.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71472226

>>71472068
>To cast spells as a cleric does.
>To swing a sword as a fighter does
>To fuck bitches and get riches as a bard does
That sentence does not mean that a paladin is a servant of a god. Good lord.

At this point I'm done and closing the thread, we're interpreting words differently and we'll never reach a satisfactory resolution. And yeah, I am getting the last word in, fuck you.

>>Enjoy a cool gif

>> No.71472303
File: 229 KB, 1183x1500, 56plwwly2x631.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71472303

>>71471109
imagine unironically only knowing 5e FR lmao

>> No.71472375
File: 2.79 MB, 406x446, 1561190828919.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71472375

>>71472226
Through PRAYER, anon. They could have used any spellcaster as comparison, but they went with the one that gets their spells from a gods. But sure, fuck it, apparently we're never going to agree, and this has gotten stupidly pedantic. Honestly there were times I thought you were trolling.

I know you'll fall to temptation and have a peek at the thread in a few hours, though. Deep in your heart, you know you crave that sweet sweet (You).

Have a hygienic gnoll.

>> No.71473599

>>71469768
No, the unborn or children who haven't lived long enough to have a patron are protected by the patron god of their parents, or nearest relative with a patron of their parents were Faithless or False. The gods aren't cruel on that point.

>> No.71473628
File: 839 KB, 678x720, cleric.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71473628

>> No.71473816

>>71469648

Yeah, he also was the biggest and strongest force of evil to ever exist, until he got bored

>> No.71473837

>>71469768

Goddess of family and fertility usually cover those

>>71469924
>>71469930

Wasn't it because due to Drizzt being famous, Lolth also gets more publicity?

>> No.71473843

>>71472375

>implying prayer is exclusive to gods

>> No.71473870

>>71439229
That right there is why people sell their souls to Asmodeus.

>> No.71474460
File: 25 KB, 267x42, Cleric of Nurgle.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71474460

>>71473628
>in certain campaigns
>might
>talk with your DM

>> No.71474953

>>71473837
Process of elimination. Lolth doesn't truly want Drizzt dead, otherwise he'd have died a long time ago. Indifference simply isn't in her character. Thus, it's not too far-fetched to conclude that she's kind of a fan.

>> No.71475796

>>71474953
There's a limit to how much deities can go after individual mortals, especially outside their portfolios, and Lolth doesn't really have any domains that lets her just drop a lightning bolt or earthquake on someone's head. Usually she shows her anger by empowering someone's rival houses, but by the time Drizz't really would have been on her shit list he'd already left drow society.

>> No.71479000

>>71475796
I mean she could literally just drop an avatar on him. Gods send avatars to do shit all the time.

>> No.71479140

>Mortal ascends to godhood
>Sees unjust, horrible, torturous thing in his domain
>Tears it down
>Other gods gang up on him and make him put it back
Kelemvor has a rough life.

>> No.71479681

>>71479140
He was also cursed when he was a mortal.

See, his grandfather was a cunt who never did anything without expectation of profit, so a witch cursed him to turn into a leopard and murder people around him whenever he accepted payment for something, to make him charitable.

The curse reversed itself on the guy's children though, so they'd turn into a murderous leopard if they did anything without taking payment. And I mean ANYTHING. Kelemvor couldn't save someone's life or pass a beer without charging, or murder kitty mode engaged.

It was absolutely hilarious.

>> No.71481656
File: 331 KB, 619x390, Faiths & Pantheons.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71481656

>>71479000
Eh, not really. Drizz't might be near the top of Lolth's Most Wanted list, but he's nowhere near a big enough nuisance to go through that kind of trouble. He's an insult, not a threat.

On an unrelated note, looking at the F&P paragraph just above this one reminded me of one of the biggest Paladin restrictions in FR; they're not allowed to multiclass unless they're part of a specific order, and even then they can only multiclass certain classes. All those Sorcadins and Hexadins that plague 5E are not actually legal in the Realms.

>> No.71482090

>>71481656
The multi class restrictions from 3.5 never made much sense to me from an in universe perspective. A paladin that learns how to pick locks and check for traps has forsaken their vows? I wasn't aware that was still a thing, but it still seems like a strange restriction unless you're already playing with no multiclassing in general

>> No.71482274

>>71475796

That's because Drizzt is almost certainly Lolth's Chosen. Jarlaxle even suggests that at one point: she's a goddess of chaos, and who has brought more chaos to the drow than him?

>> No.71482318

>>71482274
Probably that one drow who went to Evermeet to discuss a truce between the greater elven peoples and her city.
Except that got retconned out of existence since it would take away from how special Drizzt is.

>> No.71482583

>>71441663
>1 Peter 2:18
I never gelled with that when I was a practicing Christian.

>> No.71482977

>>71482583
You can't completely change society overnight.

>> No.71483007

>>71482583
One might argue that masters and slaves will always be a thing and that many forms of worship is willingly making one's self a servant of some deity or ideology. In that sense, just be a good servant. Be a good employee if you see your boss like a master.

>> No.71483208

>>71482318
I miss those drow. The ones who acted as a sort of release valve for drow society, where the non-evil ones on their coming of age "running" would just wander off instead of kill a surfacer.

>> No.71483634

>>71481656
Multiclassing as a paladin was a huge thing in 3e. Its just that they couldnt take more levels in it, but they could still keep their abilities. Since most of the relevent abilities of the paladin were front loaded you only needed a few levels of it anyways to get what you needed. In fact thats where pretty much of all those sorcadins were at their peak if anything.

>> No.71483824

>>71481656
>>71482090

3e style multi-classing was a mistake.

>> No.71484499

>>71466409
>So I guess 5e is trying to have it both ways?
5E's greatest issue

>> No.71485018

>>71439229
In the Forgotten Realms, being an atheist is like being an anti-vaxxer. You basically deserve to die of the plague, for being a fucking moron.

Wait, what's that you say? How about all the people who don't have access to vaccinations? Well, either their have their own arrangements (i.e. Spirit Shamans) or they can die too.

>> No.71485369

>>71482090
>A paladin that learns how to pick locks and check for traps has forsaken their vows?
No, that's just a cross-class skill investment.

Other than that, though, I don't see what's so weird about it. Paladin has always been a class with a lot of weight to it, so it's not so strange that they're expected to stick to their path once they've chosen it. Clerics and monks had similiar restrictions.

>> No.71485395

>>71485369
depends if he picks locks in a dungeon or if he picks locks od some guy

>> No.71485409

>>71485369
Clerics never had that restriction.
And it really isn't cross class skill investment, because paladins had like 2 a level with 10 int so that's beyond impractical. Even if you were a human that took able learner or some similar stuff there's really no room for doing that as a paladin. Also searching for traps is pretty meaningless without the trapfinding class feature.

>> No.71485612

>>71472048
The only good post in this thread.

>> No.71485802

>>71447985
Yes, but I didn't know people these days identify as Michael Jackson noises.

>> No.71485814

>>71439229
>Make cringey Christianpost
>people call it based
>Make cringey Atheistpost
>people call it cringey
>Outright state you are religious
>people call you based
>Even remotely imply atheism
>people call you cringey

When did 4chan become a christian subreddit?

>> No.71485937

>>71485814
Saturation breeds contempt and liberalism showed itself to be a failure.

>> No.71486022

>>71485937
liberalism =/= atheism tho

>> No.71486066

>>71486022
Its a package deal really.

>> No.71486107

>>71485814
it's deliberate traddy invasion like always

>> No.71486226

>>71486066
Well, let's see.
>I don't believe in a deity
>I'm an AnCap
Huh, looks like you're full of shit.

>> No.71486312

>>71440478
>Asmodeus (the real one)
There is a false one?

>> No.71486375

>>71485814
It's just contrarianism. People still think that being a conservative is punk rock here. Despite having like...Trump as a president.

>> No.71486448

>>71442055
rent free

>> No.71486531

>>71486312
The horned, red skinned demon carrying a ruby rod is a fake one, it's an avatar. The real Asmodeus is at the bottom of the great rift in Nessus, the giant wormlike former serpent angel thing that still weeps pit fiends from his blood and suffers from the wounds he suffered in his fall so long ago.

>> No.71486600

>>71472048
Based

>> No.71486743

>>71439229
The Wall of the Faithless is a retarded pointless part of the lore that just makes things dumber by existing.

>> No.71487947

>>71486312
He's like Darksied. The dude you see walking around and making grand evil speeches is just an avatar of the real thing, which is a nightmarish cosmic entity of pure Tyranny and Evil.

>> No.71488110
File: 2.57 MB, 350x197, ragtagbunchofmisfits.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
71488110

>>71485409
Well, that's why you bring companions with you. Being a Paladin is a duty, and multiclassing into other classes when you could have become an even better Paladin instead is considered neglecting that duty.

Mind you, I'm not going to spend too much energy defending the 3.5 skill system. The way they balanced it really starved a lot of classes for points.

>> No.71488263

>>71488110
It didn't balance classes especially well in general. Some of them only really worked when multiclassed with base classes and prestige classes from different books. I've plenty of issues with Pathfinder, but one thing I appreciated them doing was giving more reasons to play a single class to level 20.

>> No.71488886

All this is doing is convincing me that I need to make up my own cosmology that isn't needlessly convoluted and retarded. I suppose that's a walling.

>> No.71490287

>>71488263
I have to wonder why even have multi-classing if the intended design goal is to remove the need and desire for it

>> No.71491165

>>71490287
Honestly, I miss prestige classes. They had balance issues, but so did literally everything else in 3.5, and it's a flavourful idea. I especially like the ones with RP requirements, like having to be a follower of a certain deity, or having to perform certain deeds beforehand, or even just having to be a certain race.

5E's subclasses don't really scratch the same itch, since they happen at such an early level and don't require anything from the player. At first I thought they were a neat idea, but at this point they're starting to feel more like a design restriction than anything else.

>> No.71491451

>>71486375
Trump isn't conservative, he's a neoliberal populist

>> No.71491506

>>71491451
He's got the conservatives on a leash though

>>
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