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70806101 No.70806101 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Why does everyone these days want to play out some trite narrative of enlightened rebels overthrowing a tyrannous empire?

How do we get people to better appreciate stories of noble and chivalrous crusaders smiting heathens and invaders in the name of God, king, and country?

>> No.70806189

>>70806101
This is because the majority of people live in a first-world nation. They're upset because they don't stand out, they're not unique: They can only find personal value and affirmation in rebellion. Unfortunately, they're rebelling against what works, so it feels like a Thanatoic death-urge! It's literally a suicide pact, to struggle against everything that made your country a successful one.

Unironically, hard times (like warfare) makes everyone patriotic. Alternatively, it falls upon YOU to push the Overton window as far right as possible, by voting for Conservative leaders and Conservative policies. Also, vet your gaming groups and shape the heroic narratives you want.

If you wonder why every YA novel is about overthrowing a corrupt system and not heroically fighting to uphold an inherently noble one, it's because the counterculture has nothing to define themselves against. They're super-comfy and with nothing to fight. Therefore, they're fighting against what should make them happy. In real life, a rebellion usually ends in an even more tyrannical regime being established (See the Khmer Rouge, Communist Russia, China and other similar regimes) or everyone getting shot behind the year. Needless to say, this doesn't show up in most fiction as much.

>> No.70806211

>>70806101
>The tyrannic empire is a communist one
What now?

>> No.70806215

>>70806101
>>70806189
I beg of you, please have sex. I promise that such things will stop bothering you immediately.

>> No.70806219
File: 98 KB, 768x768, ramboooooo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70806219

>>70806211
Time to restore freedom, American-style!

>> No.70806273

>>70806101
I'm a tremendous racist, so I always put the following in my games:

> The diverse city on the coast is a lot weaker than the one ruled by an absolute monarch.
> Bloodline purity is a thing that exists.
> Orcs, goblins and other evil races are irredeemable. If they appear to 'overcome their natures', they're faking it. Even the children are born evil.
> Women are simply not as competent as men, and even a powerful female individual longs to be seen as feminine and be loved by a man.
> Anyone expressing liberal ideals ultimately causes a disaster when push comes to shove.
> Homosexuals and sexual deviants are either mentally weak or evil. (This is pretty common in Chinese fiction, eunuchs and effeminate men are always basically evil incarnate.)
> Ultimately, things always come down to hard men making hard decisions.
> The autocrat always has a sympathetic backstory, has a point, or is just generally nicer than the snot-nosed liberal leader.

It helps that these are all fantasy conventions. No-one ever calls it out. Redpill your friends, be the change you want to see in the world.

>> No.70806281

>>70806215
This isn't true. Can confirm, I had sex once and literally nothing changed.

>> No.70806284

>>70806101
I wanna be the paladin telling dirt farmer Joseph it's a sin to rebel against his divinely ordained king. I wanna be the jackbooted thug stomping on the Little man, breaking rebellions and hanging malcontents without the DM jerking off under the table and about to pull the rug out from under me with a """""""""surprise""""""""" twist betrayal

>> No.70806307

>>70806189
Stop me if I sound too SJW, but this sounds exactly like what a privileged asshole who has never had to face the many injustices, hardships and inequalities our society still has and as such idiotically assumes that they don't exist.
...
y'know, maybe, but what do I know?

>> No.70806311
File: 186 KB, 850x558, wolf brigade2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70806311

>>70806284
That would honestly be fucking awesome. Everyone wants to play the rebels, why can't I play the noble Wolf Brigade? Why don't more games allow me to heroically shun the treacherous wiles of the rebels, to stand with my brothers in the pack?

We get dirty so the world stays clean. We fight the battles no-else has the stomach for.

>> No.70806317

>>70806101
>noble and chivalrous crusaders
>pic from For Honor
Did you even play through the story? The knigts are full time retards following a warmongering genocidal eugeneticist.
They didn't do it for neither of those things, buy rather out of momentum and being coerced.
Apollyon did nothing wrong, tho

>> No.70806318

Seven-zero-eight-zero-six-two-seven-three
Stale pasta

>> No.70806320

>>70806307
Are you sure it's not the other way around? Because it looks to me that refusing to acknowledge your sheer good fortune in being born American (literally the richest and most powerful country in the world) is denying that it could be way, way fucking worse.

>> No.70806334

>>70806307
Name one(1) injustice, hardship, or inequality the western world still faces.

>> No.70806350

>>70806334
Fat people

>> No.70806366

>>70806101
For the same reason Arthur overthrew vortigern and nearly every Greek myth had the hero kill some king or another to claim his throne. Heroes are ultimately the arbiters of good and evil within their story, and heroes don't tend to start out as the man, therefore the man is evil when he stands in the way of the heroes

>> No.70806375

>>70806311
I want exactly this. Let me die for my brothers and a cause the mongrel hordes breaking at our gate cannot understand.
Let the established order be the right one for a change

>> No.70806399

>>70806284
> implying peasant rebellions are inherently heroic

GRRM, the fat old neckbeard, knew better than anyone else that peasants are actually even worse than nobles. The common man is no-one's friend.

>> No.70806412

>>70806101
You got duped into following Islam-lite which is Lawful Evil

>> No.70806435

>>70806399
You're sure you're not thinking about the show? The Sparrows might be ISIS in it, but in the books they are sympathetic figures.

>> No.70806446

>>70806412
This is wrong. The reason why the Western world recoils from Islam is because Islam is infinitely crueler than any Western religion. We see that Islam is sick and diseased, and we can't accept it.

It's like arguing that the Laws of Hell are the same as the Laws of Heaven. The only similarity is that they're still laws, and it's obscene to even suggest their equivalence. That's like saying sex between a man and a woman is identical to sex between a man and an animal, or (relevant to Islam) sex between an old man and a prepubescent girl like Aisha.

>> No.70806458

>>70806435
In the books they act and do largely the same shit

They are an angry mob if fanatics, how sympathetic they are depends on how justified you think their anger is

>> No.70806468

>>70806399
They're called common for a reason. The call to reason and civilization, law and order is an uncommon thing in the animal that is man.
Time and the right alloy of peace, trial and guidance can spread these qualities through the common folk. In the meantime you're right, the commoners cannot be allowed to govern themselves

>> No.70806471

>>70806435
Did you forget the part where Lolly gets raped several dozen times? Hell, in the books the Sparrows are insane religious fundamentalists.

>> No.70806497

>>70806101

So instead of playing people overthrowing the government of a country you want to play people...overflowing the government of a country?

>> No.70806514

>>70806497
What, you mean supporting the government? Being the shield that protects the realms of man?

>> No.70806525

>>70806334

Income inequality is at the worst it's been in decades, comparable to just before the 1929 stock market crash.

>> No.70806526

>>70806497
Upholding the god-given order, you mean? Curiously, you can actually play Exalted like this. Part of the reason why the world is fucked is because the inferior, Terrestial Exalted overthrew the rightful Solar rule (aided by the treacherous Sidereals) and were unable to sustain the way things were supposed to go.

Now that you're back, it's time to make them kneel again (or break them) for their treachery, corruption and indolence.

>> No.70806531

>>70806320
I honestly don't know what to tell you if you think that "it could be worse" EVER means that you shouldn't still fight to make things better now. OF COURSE I know that by being born in a developed western country makes me very very lucky in itself, that doesn't change that we still have a great deal of change to make if we seek to create a just and good world.

>>70806334
How about our continuing inability to understand, prevent and treat mental health issues? Since we're doing this out of an American perspective anyway what about the massive amount suffering still caused by a healthcare system that, regardless of how you think it should be fixed, is incredibly flawed? Should I even mention our education system?
I would make note of the increasing income inequality and poverty but you seem like the type to say that povery is just the result of lazyness or something of the sort.

ALL of these issues are caused by either the governments action or failure to act so, once again, REGARDLESS of how you personally think these problems should be solved I just cannot see how you would think that there are no problems AT ALL in our society that someone would want to fight against.

>> No.70806542

>>70806514
>What, you mean supporting the government?

If you're a crusader, you're in someone else's country, opposing the local government.

>> No.70806560

>>70806542
You mean overthrowing the unrighteous order, and bringing them under rightful, enlightened rule? Uniting the savage lands until the aegis of God, King and Country?

>> No.70806563

>>70806526

And the Solars in turn overthrew the rightful Primordial rule. The Solar have no more claim to righteousness than the Primordials did. You're also ignoring the vision of gold that has 'If they didn't overthrow the Solars, it was quite likely things would end up much, much worse than the current age of sorrows'.

>> No.70806588

>>70806563
The Primordials were cruel and arbitrary. It was their curse on the Solars, the Great Curse, which fucked everything. I think you're misremembering: The Vision of Gold is the one that shows how the Solars, if guided by the Sidereals, can turn Creation into a perpetual paradise.

It's the other vision that shows everything's fucked. Don't forget the Sidereal curse is literally "When more and more of us get together, we make terrible decisions".

>> No.70806634

>>70806588

>The Primordials were cruel and arbitrary.
So are humans, quite often. Solars don't have anything that makes them better people.

>It was their curse on the Solars, the Great Curse, which fucked everything
And fundamental human nature. The Solars were not perpetually in a state of limit break. They did a lot of horrendous shit without the curse affecting it. The Curse also still exists, so that doesn't really give any reason to suggest that Solars should be in charge again.

>The Vision of Gold is the one that shows how the Solars, if guided by the Sidereals, can turn Creation into a perpetual paradise.

That was part of it, with the counterpoint to that being 'These are very, very long odds and likely to end with creation's entire destruction'.

>> No.70806636

>>70806446
Desert religions are about butchering and torturing people who don't believe in the spaghetti monster and associated retarded laws. It's the same evil, seriously read the bible

>> No.70806644

>>70806101

The noble faction has to be cool enough that players will want to join it. Otherwise they'll tear it down for fun. Brotherhood of Steel is very popular in the Fallout fandom. Knights remain popular in For Honor even though the Vikings always win. Lots of people play theocratic military dictatorships in Civilization.

Literally just decorate it and give it a good theme song. Tuck a bit of philosophy about order and chaos in there to make the leader sound smart and have at it.

>> No.70806677

>>70806634
>That was part of it, with the counterpoint to that being 'These are very, very long odds and likely to end with creation's entire destruction'.

Which is why the vision of Bronze gives a way to play out OP's point. "We're doing this because it works, because it's the only way to save everything from chaos and suffering, because for all their faults, the dragonblooded are heroes who stand between us and a dozen apocalyptic ends."

>> No.70806700

>>70806334
Every infant's penis is dismembered immediately after birth without their consent.

>> No.70806738

>>70806677
But the Solars literally have the Creation-Ruling Mandate.

>> No.70806753

>>70806531
>How about our continuing inability to understand, prevent and treat mental health issues?
The only prevention and treatment they need is a good shotgun slug.

>> No.70806756

>>70806738

With that and $2 you can buy a can of soft drink. The Creation Ruling Mandate was gained in the first place by kicking the shit out of the Primordials, then the Solars themselves got the shit kicked out of them.

It has no actual moral weight or objective judgement of rightness to rule.

>> No.70806765

>>70806189
>Communist Russia was worse than the Russian Empire
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>> No.70806794

>>70806189
>n real life, a rebellion usually ends in an even more tyrannical regime being established (See the Khmer Rouge, Communist Russia, China and other similar regimes) or everyone getting shot behind the year. Needless to say, this doesn't show up in most fiction as much.

It can also end in the Magna Carta.

>> No.70806797

>>70806273
You've posted this copypasta before.

>> No.70806798

>>70806531
>>70806753
See what I mean?

>> No.70806808

>>70806531
>Mental issues
Literally self-diagnosed trannies. Mental health issues do not exist, people who claim to have them are just sick, evil "people".
>Healthcare system
Best in the world, i don't see many american celebrities going into other countries for treatment.
>Income inequality and poverty
Literally spics, niggers and gender studies trannies. The day we'll be able to shoot these people without repercussion is the day America will finally get rid of last of its parasites.

>> No.70806833
File: 100 KB, 612x312, imp lying.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70806833

>>70806273
>I always put the following in my games
>in my games

>> No.70806860
File: 59 KB, 500x618, smug bastet.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70806860

>>70806808
>t. temporarily embarassed millionaire

>> No.70806863

>>70806101
But empires are, by their nature, invaders.
It's perfectly natural for a vassal state to throw off the chains of oppression when the opportunity presents itself.
Or do you not understand what an empire is?

>> No.70806884

>>70806531
>mental health
The only problem here is that these "people" aren't aborted.

>> No.70806894

>>70806863
This entire thread is desperate cope from either LARPing Amerisharts sad that their empire is collapsing in real time, or LARPing Evropans sad that they don't get to murder their own countrymen in a futile holy war.

>> No.70806907

>>70806215
Imagine being such a turbo virgin that you think having sex changes your outlook in life.

>> No.70806912

>>70806101
Both of these are trite to be honest.

>> No.70806933

>>70806101
>some trite narrative
>How do we get people to better appreciate stories of noble and chivalrous crusaders smiting heathens and invaders in the name of God, king, and country?

>> No.70806965

>>70806863
>Or do you not understand what an empire is?
The guys who build the roads and fend off the weird guys from the East.

>> No.70806991

>>70806101
Underdog stories are well loved as they have the most adversity, fighting as a part of a superior force just isn't satisfying

>> No.70806996

>>70806933
Most people into /tg/ already know that the Catholic church was seventeen different kinds of fucked-up in the days of the Crusades. So any miserable buckethead trying to unironically do a "let's go crusading!" adventure gets to have his players spend the entire game eagerly waiting to either get backstabbed by their "allies" or to become cartoon supervillains. The best part is that your campaign idea would actually be improved if that happened.

>> No.70807000 [DELETED] 
File: 516 KB, 702x702, 1580573989349.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70807000

Update:
>CON now grants double (or 1.5 rounded up) it's modifier of extra HP on level up, STR now grants extra HP equal to it's modifier on level up
>or you can use your STR modifier instead of the CON modifier for extra HP when leveling up
>INT modifier can be used in place of DEX modifier for your initiative bonus
The jury is still out on whether or not to remove DEX modifier from damage rolls, at least for some weapons. Looking at you heavy crossbow.

>> No.70807014

>>70806808
Once again, see what I mean?

What honestly gets about people like you the most is that even from a (objectively incorrect) 100% racist and sexist view these views still make no sense! There many MANY white, able-bodied, conservative men out there who live in poverty because society fucked them over the same way it fucks over others. How many white men are out there who are affected by trauma and compulsions that they recieve no help and are even ridiculed for it?

Why blame fucking minorities instead of trying to fix the system that fucks EVERYONE over?

>> No.70807059

>>70807014
>There many MANY white, able-bodied, conservative men out there who live in poverty because society fucked them over the same way it fucks over others.
They were lazy then.

>> No.70807215

>>70806189
Actually rebellion is cool and it makes closet cases like OP and this dude mad as fuck, proving its goodness. Sadly this site has been infested with people who are attracted to fascism and authoritarianism, both as a way to address their own inadequacies and to surround themselves with men as they are 100% gay as hell but too stupid to figure it out, and thus there is now a deluge of people who go "Uh actually the Empire in Star Wars is good!" because they have made themselves too contrarian to accept even the most basic statements.

>> No.70807271

>>70806756
And the DBs still don't have it. It's under their watch when everything went to shit.

>> No.70807341

>>70807014
That's really what drove me away from conservatism, honestly. It doesn't offer much apart from an outlet of giving you tons of targets to yell at for ruining your life. I don't get anything out of the right that would actually improve my life; there's no union rights under right-wing regimes, there's no social safety net in case I get fired or let go, there's no universal healthcare in the case of my home country, and so on. It's just constant race war shit and posturing, there's no actual benefits; if the far-right got control of shit and got their wish of racial purity, every white person left would still be in the miserable position they started out in before since that's all the far-right offers is scapegoats. It's just so un-patriotic, it doesn't make anything better for the working class of this country.

>> No.70807346

>>70806560
>You mean overthrowing the unrighteous order, and bringing them under rightful, enlightened rule?
Ah, you mean a rebellion.

No, w-wait a minute...

>> No.70807523

Games involving PCs either as fighters for order or against order can both net very intriguing but clearly this is the same culture war schlock half the fucking threads on the site are, so I'm not going to grace this with an actual reply.

>> No.70807563

>>70806101
Because most people enjoy playing characters of similar morals to themselves. And monarchies are not perceived as good. Even if you are a pro-monarchy retard you have to agree it ain't exactly a popular thing.

>> No.70807584

>>70806446
Yeah bro ruining someone's life because he doesn't want his kids to become trannies is really cruel.

>> No.70807609
File: 1.45 MB, 745x1040, xln-21-legion-s-judgment.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70807609

>>70806101
The Ixalan vampire holy conquistadors are cool and righteous.

>> No.70807611

>>70807523
>clearly this is the same culture war schlock half the fucking threads on the site are

Stop being so paranoid about culture wars.

>> No.70807614

>>70806765
Found the Jew.

>> No.70807677

>>70807346
> Implying conquering a nation from without is a rebellion from within.

>> No.70807708

>>70807611
>Paranoid
>Half the thread is arguing about conservatism or some random bullshit subject and
>Someone literally said they needed to do their duty to change opinion in the rpg community through being based and redpilled
Yes, just paranoid.
>>70807677
This desu, conquest is not rebellion and trying to equate the two just because they both overthrow an existing order is strange.

>> No.70807742

>>70807708
You're reading way too much into this.

>> No.70807779

>>70807742
No, he's really not. The only concrete example of the games they'd like to play is this >>70806375 anon bitching about mongrel hordes.

>> No.70807806

>>70807779
Why are you complaining about the kind of games people want to play? Let them play what they want, it doesn't affect your table, right?

>> No.70807814

>>70806101
Because it's what Tolkien did.

>> No.70807829

>>70807806
>Complaining about the types of games people want to play
I'm not him but I'm the original guy you were talking with- I don't care if people want to play these games, I'm talking about this thread you retard. Or are you being purposefully obtuse in order to avoid obvious obnoxious bullshit like this and be cheeky about it?

>> No.70807836

>>70807806
No, it doesn't. Pretending this thread is anything other than the alt-right looking to spread their memes is remains disingenuous though.

>> No.70807847

>>70807829
Why? All I see is someone talking about what he wants to run for his campaign. That's entirely fine.

>> No.70807857

>Why does everyone these days want to play out some trite narrative of enlightened rebels overthrowing a tyrannous empire?
Yes, this is something that is completely new to 'these days.' It is certainly a modern trend concocted by the SJWs and not something that has always existed. We've never seen anything like that before in...
>The original trilogy of Star Wars.
>The Matrix.
>V for Vendetta.
>Robin Hood.
>The million and one books and movies about rebellion that are produced year after year, regardless of the generation.
>Even less related fiction that you can tie to good guys fighting against bad guys who want to do bad things, like Lord of the Rings.
It's almost like enlightened good guys fighting against tyrannical bad guys has always been a thing in media, throughout the past hundred years and beyond. But keep on pretending that this is something new and something political for you to rally against.

>> No.70807878

>>70807847
I would legitimately play almost any idea layed out in this thread and quite enjoy it. The idea of playing a game as crusaders is cool as shit and interesting- my issue is with the thread and the way some faggots clearly make this into some autistic culture war crusade.
At this point it's obvious you're ignoring most of the thread for b8 purposes and I'll admit you got me, fair play

>> No.70807905

>>70807857
But in Star Wars and Robin Hood, the heroes were fighting for the RIGHTFUL order to be re-established! In Star Wars, the Republic is actually the way things should be before an usurper seized power. Same for Robin Hood, where Robin is a loyalist to the actual King!

In fact, V for Vendetta is sort of a counter-example. When V is done, the entire state collapses into violent anarchy. We see a woman forced to sell her body for food and shelter, and there are prowling rape-gangs. At no point is V supposed to be the good guy, he happily admits he's an insane terrorist.

>> No.70808057

>>70807905
Doesn't change the fact that it was a rebellion story, even if it was depicted in a morally grey light, and that the totalitarian government of Norsefire was still a tyrannical empire that was in need of overthrowing, even if the comics reveal the negative consequences of revolution.

Are you trying to insinuate that modern takes on the rebellion story are not about fighting to establish a 'RIGHTFUL' order rather than a tyrannical one?

>> No.70808065

>>70807878
No?

>> No.70808100

>>70806189
Come on jannies, you've killed the last few shitposts I've replied to give us another one.

>> No.70808218

>>70808057
Is it really? It was left ambiguous. Adam Susan (For example) isn't actually as evil as he is in the movie. There was a massive departure from the source material in the adaptation, remember. Alan Moore meant for it to be up to interpretation.

>> No.70808284

>>70806273
Well at least we know this copypasta is a fantasy world.

>> No.70808378

go back to /pol/

>> No.70808475

>>70806189
This but unironically

>> No.70808540

>>70806215
It really does not work that way. After sleeping with a girl when I was 16 I became more political, not less.

>> No.70808554

>>70806525
The rich are getting richer, but the poor are getting richer faster. Income inequality is shrinking, not growing.

>> No.70808591

>>70806307
>never had to face the many injustices, hardships and inequalities our society
Neither have you, and neither have the vast majority of people. But stupid people romanticize oppression and crave the attention they've been taught it brings. They want to be the misunderstood rebel/teenager surrounded by people who don't "get it," leaving them a mysterious brooding loner that they think is alluring.

>> No.70808593

>>70808554
This is the exact opposite of reality, especially with inflation taken into account.

>> No.70808604

>>70808591
Or they have legit grievances and you want to mischaracterize them to feel better about yourself.

>> No.70808615

>reading about Congo Crisis in the 1960s
>Communist backed rebel group called the Simbas
>basically just raiders who eat people and have weird village rituals

>> No.70808619

>>70806101
>Why does everyone these days want to play out some trite narrative of enlightened rebels overthrowing a tyrannous empire?
Because Star Wars and other such 'fuck the system' sentiments from the 80s and 90s took over common culture, coupled with a growing disdain for Christian themes because mom took them to church once and it wasn't fun.

>> No.70808623

>>70807215
Rebellion is good when there's something that should be rebelled against. But in western countries, there's not. But these wannabe rebels don't have the stones to go to the places in the world where there's real oppression to be rebelled against.

>> No.70808627

>>70808604
perhaps this is what you are doing to avoid scrutinizing your own beliefs

>> No.70808644

>>70808475
I think it already is unironic.

>> No.70808656

>>70808554
>The rich are getting richer, but the poor are getting richer faster. Income inequality is shrinking, not growing.

The Cost of Living is increasing, wage growth is below the rate of inflation and the cost of housing has vastly outpaced even the inflation. By which metric is income inequality shrinking?

>> No.70808698

>>70808623
> But in western countries, there's not
enforced tolerance of aberrant behaviour like homosexuality and trannies, the systematic introduction of third-worlders, the continued wasting of money in wars for one specific country that does us more harm than good, corporations overtaking more and more aspects of public life, genuine concern being replaced by a #woke culture that is content to listen to children that parrot their own beliefs... I Would say that there are tons of things to rebel against. The problem isn't that rebellion is outdated or something, it is that modern culture is an oppressive hegemon that actively wants people to be apathetic and weak, living their fantasies of rebellion through video games and children's movies

>> No.70808700

>>70807857
It goes back even further than that. Invasion stories, where our plucky heroes need to resist a evil conquering force, have been popular for more than a century.

>> No.70808709

>>70806317
>The knights
Do not follow Apollon en mass, it's just another faction. Did YOU play through the story?

>> No.70808737

>>70808698
I didn't say the west was perfect, but those things aren't oppression.

>> No.70808745

>>70808627
I don't believe that healthcare and income inequality in the US need to be fixed. These are facts, they are known.

>> No.70808754
File: 28 KB, 800x450, MFW I see your shit.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70808754

>>70808604
>Or they have legit grievances

>> No.70808803

>>70806531
The US has the best healthcare system in the world, people just have a hard time affording it. Let me clue you in. The "quality" of care is not determined by how many people can afford to use it. The problem isn't with health care so much as it is with insurance. If more people could afford insurance, more people could get health care. But hospitals and doctors have no authority over insurance costs, your complaint is with the wrong industry.

>> No.70808844
File: 1.08 MB, 1636x924, ky faggot.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70808844

>>70808803
>The US has the best healthcare system in the world, people just have a hard time affording it
retard

>> No.70808846

>>70808803
>The "quality" of care is not determined by how many people can afford to use it.

Eh, I'd call 'access' part of the quality when you're making an overall assessment of the quality of a service. In the same way that say, the best firefighters ever would be judged to be a bad service if they only covered 1 street in a town.

>> No.70808860
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70808860

>>70808745
>These are facts

>> No.70808867

>>70808593
>>70808656
>t.brainlets
As employment goes up, more people enter the middle class. I'm not talking about people making 20-30k a year, I'm talking about people making 50k who do just fine. More and more people are entering that income bracket. And how many wealthy people there are, and how much they have, has no bearing on that, in the slightest. People being richer than you doesn't make you poorer.

>> No.70808892

>>70808844
No, it's actually true.
>>70808846
Access =/= quality. Know why there's an access problem? Too many leeches feeding on the system without paying any taxes to refund what they cost. If you want access to improve, get rid of the illegals.

>> No.70808932

>>70808803
If we go by statistics based around public health this is wrong. You can find the best care in the world in the US, this is true, but this does not translate to the best overall care just because we have the best surgeons.

Put some data to back up your claims because as is the USA is in a constant spiral of public health crisis. And also for quality of life and general health the US is low, and he’s the obesity epidemic is a symptom related to the poor state of our healthcare as a whole.

>> No.70808947

>>70808892
The biggest group leeches aren’t illegal individuals. In the US it is by far the Elderly who take the largest piece of the pie, to be point they dwarf every other demographic.

Pointing at illegals is ignoring the rotting corpses we keep in every home. Elderly who ruined their bodies in the hedonism of our golden age who now demand we support them.

>> No.70808964

>>70808932
>having the best care doesn't mean we have the best care
Okay buddy, here is the only metric that matters. Which country, if you get sick or injured, are you most likely to survive in? Answer: America. Done, best care, period.

>> No.70808974

>>70808867
>As employment goes up, more people enter the middle class.

Except they don't. The Middle Class is, overall, shrinking.

>> No.70808977

It all boils down to keeping your own political views out of games. No sane person want to hear your drivel on some shitty Communist or Fascist fantasy you masturbate to.

>> No.70808981

>>70808947
The elderly don't get health care for free, they usually have insurance

>> No.70809009

>>70808974
>The Middle Class is, overall, shrinking.
Wrong.

>> No.70809015

>>70808964
That’s incorrect though. With unlimited funds the statement you made is true, otherwise if we are talking about yo ur average chance of survival not dependent on wealth we actually need to look to Europe for best survival rates.

Also, best healthcare peaks and absolutely awful public health. Again the inequality of access is apparent on the fact that the USA is in a state of public health crisis. “I got mine” is a horrible attitude to take for social stability.

>> No.70809040

>>70808964
>Which country, if you get sick or injured, are you most likely to survive in? Answer: America. Done, best care, period.

America's not the top because of that aforementioned access issue. If a random person in america is sick or injured, they're more likely to suffer through it instead of go immediately to the doctor (Due to costs and labor laws making it harder to get time off work without losing their job).

America is the best place to get sick, if you're covered (Which isn't certain even if you're insured) and can get time off work to recover.

>> No.70809042

>>70808981
Medicare and Medicaid are the big subsidized service providers. They are comically large drains on our national budget and if we go by our income and not by total spending they eat 70% of our national revenue. The main beneficiaries are the elderly. The elderly have caused the national health crisis, they are the root of the issue.

>> No.70809057
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70809057

>>70809009

Got a source for that?

>> No.70809065

>>70809009
Home ownership is done, purchasing power is down, health care access is down, debt is up. If middle class mean debt slave barely living then I suppose you’d be right.

You can’t just say ‘wrong’ and ignore facts about the wealth chasm being created. The fact people are less able to afford needs is a fact of our economy.

>> No.70809084

>>70809042
And the elderly have been paying taxes their whole life, so I don't see how you think they're a drain.

>> No.70809109

>>70809040
>If a random person in america is sick or injured, they're more likely to suffer through it instead of go immediately to the doctor
Or they go to the emergency room and get care regardless of insurance.

>> No.70809126

>>70809084
The elderly are now a net tax negative. They have taken more than they paid in. Also if we look at the age of economic prosperity and the modern day those who are elderly are not working off of the money they paid in during the time they had plenty but are working off of what those who are still working who have few.

>> No.70809158

>>70809109
And become comically in debt? Or do you not consider ongoing care and price into healthcare at all? Because if you don’t you’re a retard. If I have an ongoing condition and do not have access then in the US I am doomed to suffer, this is a widespread issue in our country.

>> No.70809162
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70809162

>>70806101
'Lov me God
'Lov me Church
'Lov me wife
'Lov me home
'ate kings
'ate countries
'ate heathens
Simple as.

>> No.70809187

>>70809109
>Or they go to the emergency room and get care regardless of insurance.

And then they get fired for missing work or end up in such debt that everything they go bankrupt. That creates pressure to not visit the doctor and is why Americans die a lot more each year than you'd expect for the quality of doctors. There is more factors in 'Quality of Care' for a country than 'How good are the doctors'

>> No.70809378
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70809378

I don't allow DEUS VULTing retards at my table.

>> No.70809476

>>70809187
Yeah but come on, this dude you're arguing is literally just going to go "uh, actually, it's very good to put people in debt, it makes the country stronger somehow" because he's either a healthcare industry shill or just a run-of-the-mill sociopath.

>> No.70809495
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70809495

>everythread post 2016 election somehow finds a way to turn into a /pol/ derrived shit show of political discourse.

>> No.70809528

>>70809495
Desu Volt threads turned out like this even before 2016.

>> No.70809783

>>70809528
True. but what few I looked through in the past I don't quite recall being...well, racist, I lack any word other than racist on /pol/ tier

I'd love to play an unironic "We work for the empire, no the empire isn't evil, in fact it's pretty fucking cool and also not uncomfortably racist" but unfortunately real life history has sort of made that excessively complicated so I just choose to run games exclusively in setting where society is already widespread and just leave it at that.

>> No.70809830

>>70806189

>hard times (like warfare) makes everyone patriotic.

When you occupy a country that has never been invaded by foreign troops in living memory, warfare isn't really hard times.

It's just times when the fat rich people at home send the troops to go and beat up foreigners in faroff lands, then abandon them when they come home with injuries and PTSD.

Kind of like the Crusades, really.

>> No.70809943
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70809943

>>70806273
>Women are simply not as competent as men, and even a powerful female individual longs to be seen as feminine and be loved by a man.
This bothers me. Fighting to defend your home against invaders or those that wish you ill isn't manly. It's human. I don't care if its a woman with a shotgun defending the homestead against a pack of wolves or if its the maiden forced to take up an axe and defend the city walls because the alternative is rape and pillage. Everyone fights when the cards are down. Everyone. I don't want people around me that don't have that level of spine and I don't want a woman that's so frightened of being seen as unfeminine that she won't defend herself when she has to. I hate how people have turned self-defense into some stupid political notion. Everyone has the right to defend themselves against violence and should be actively encouraged to do so.

>> No.70809971

>>70806273
>The diverse city on the coast is a lot weaker than the one ruled by an absolute monarch.
These aren't even opposites, absolute monarchs historically ruled over very diverse populations, authoritarian =/= ethno-nationalist, especially when monarchy is involved.

>> No.70810051

>>70806101
>>70806211
What if the Empire is a heathen one (you know... Like the Persian or later Ottomans were) and the players are Valiant Crusading resistance members?

>>70809971
Don't forget coastal cities tend to be major trade hubs because until the advent of railways and cargo planes (and even after) it's easier to ship large volumes of stuff by ships and thus more prosperous. Even those inland tend to be near major river networks.

>>70809943
Buddy, I might be a lefty, but I will die fighting by your side (or more realistically, I'll body shield for you. Not so great at fighting and my only gun is a blackpower army colt even California law does not consider a gun) with pride.

>> No.70810152

>>70809015
>“I got mine” is a horrible attitude to take for social stability.
Yeah, so is the importing of mass quantities of third world foreigners. Especially when they are a net drain on public services and don't actually pay into the economy. They only serve to make massive profits for the megacorporations whose wealth does NOT trickle down. You can't whine about how 'inaccessible' public heathcare is when the entire system is flooded with illegals.

>> No.70810268

>>70807614
tankie*

>> No.70810403

>>70810152
Most of that problem comes exclusively from the trade deals that the US and EU have with african nations that prevent them from even doing simple shit like making a profit chicken farming. Like they're treaty bound to have literally 0 basic industry. They have to import everything or the IMF will call their loans and bankrupt the country.

tl;dr fuck the IMF destroy the banks let them farm chickens and make their own fucking clothes so they stop showing up everywhere else

>> No.70810607

>>70810403
What the fuck do African nations do with Mexican illegals?

>> No.70810848

>>70809495
Ya because the site got flooded by shills. CTR and Shareblue back then and now we have news of democrats from Iowa trying to "fight the alt right" online.

>> No.70810958

>>70808709
Polly's faction is the biggest and strongest, you doofus. Furthermore it's a knights-only faction while the others are mostly small groups or work for lords.

>> No.70811020

>>70810848
>implying both sides don’t have comical amounts of shills & frothing supporters.

>> No.70811040

>>70810152

>They only serve to make massive profits for the megacorporations whose wealth does NOT trickle down.

>You can't whine about how 'inaccessible' public heathcare is when the entire system is flooded with illegals.

That's what happens when megacorporations go unrestricted, m8.

The logical conclusion for unchecked capitalism is that corporations break the rules to make money, and "I don't want foreigners in the country", "I don't want to lose my job and end up in massive debt because of a broken leg" and "I want to be able to feed my family" are all things that any major corporation will happily trample over to make (short-term!) profits.

>> No.70811079

>>70810607
Most of the rapefugees /pol/ likes to carp about are African and Mexico as a third world state is as fuck as any other by the IMF.
>>70810848
You start a thread with DEUS VULT and what do you expect? Trannies shilling rainbow solarpunk rightly get shat on, your ethnic cleansing fantasies deserve the same.

>> No.70811089

>>70810152
I can and I will. This is all because of crony capitalism and unrestricted corporate spending on government. We live in neofeudalism.

>> No.70811102

>>70807614
>Guys the Russian Empire was great and everyone loved living there, nevermind how it was an oppressive corrupt shithole which despite being the largest contiguous nation on earth got stomped by a smaller technologically backwards backwater.

No Russia faced constant revolts and attempted revolutions because it was so prosperous and stable.

>> No.70811466

>>70806471
Lollys was raped by rabble of the city, not the Sparrows who come much later on.

>> No.70811634

>>70811079
Do you assume everyone that doesn't agree with you is a racist?

>> No.70811660

>>70811634
I assume the people who keep shouting niggers are racist.

>> No.70811985

I play crusader types, female paladins, knights, and crusaders. Try and stop me.

>> No.70812075

>>70811660
When did any of my posts use that word?

Are you paranoid or just incompetent.

>> No.70814196

>>70806307
>Stop me if I sound too SJW, but this sounds exactly like what a privileged

Stop, you faggot SJW.

>> No.70814294
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70814294

I agree. If Ruin Johnson really wanted to "subvert expectations" in Star Wars, then he should have made the Empire the good guys. Make Kylo Ren a good ruler and his New Empire popular with the people. The Resistance would be incompetent terrorists that nobody likes. That's why nobody answered their distress calls. Because they are the laughingstock of the galaxy.

>> No.70814295

>>70806273
Eunuchs are evil in chinese fiction because Eunuchs have historically been the downfall of many dynasties.

>> No.70814339

>>70806101
>stories of noble and chivalrous crusaders smiting heathens and invaders
Chivalry was a lie and crusades were an excuse for xenophobic murder.

>> No.70814467

>>70808892
>Access =/= quality
It absolutely does though. If you can't access a thing then its quality is immaterial as it might as well not exist as far as you're concerned - thus for the people who cannot afford to access the US health system there is no health system. That is literally 3rd world tier. That is what you're defending. Literally just 'poorfags get wrekt'.

>> No.70814517

>>70814339
You have to be 18 or older to post here.

>> No.70814606

>>70814339
virtue is always a lie. That doesn't mean you should not strive for it with all your efforts.

>> No.70814738

>>70807014
Because /pol/tards are assholes who enjoy the suffering of others

>> No.70815804

>>70810268
Based
>>70806189
Russia was the asshole of Europe until Lenin lead the people in revolt and Stalin industrialized it. Famines were ended, literacy exploded (despite muh anti-intellectualism teacher purge), economy grew during the great depression, lifespan doubled, fat cats felt troubled. All while maintaining a strong sense of unity of purpose in opposition to west europe's desires. Revolution is the true national spirit.

>> No.70816002

>>70814339
Crusades were, at least the first one, a reactionary movement in response to muslims and them taking Jerusalem, the holy city alongside many prior invasions and taking of Spain, which was still being retaken

>> No.70816099

>>70808745
You need more doctors because letting everyone access healthcare is going to murder tons of people. We don't have enough people as it is.

>> No.70816182

>>70814467
>Literally just 'poorfags get wrekt'.
Good. That's what they deserve. If you're loved by God he will bring you wealth. Staying poor means you are hated by God, so programs designed to help the poor are subverting God's will. That's ACTUALLY heresy, not like the 40k memes. The poor must stay poor until they earn their way back into the graces of God.

>> No.70816301

>>70816182
I think it is funny you say that, as my theory goes like this: Your individual worth is dependent mostly on how many people there are in the world and how replaceable you are.

In my theory, I find it funny that poor people want to help third worlders since third worlders are their direct competition. In fact, if corona chan wiped out half the world, they'd be much better off.

>> No.70816346

>>70816182
>If you're loved by God he will bring you wealth
God stripped wealth and happiness away from a man who did nothing wrong so he could prove a point to the devil.

>> No.70816394

>>70816346
You mean the parable that didn't actually happen but was used to prove a point about faith?

>> No.70816454

Play into it. Make a country that is good and Noble, have it be threatened by some irredeemable force (like gnolls, demons, undead) and set the Party on the path to stop the Invaders. Then, make some branch of government or some aspect of the good nation, be corrupt. Like a corrupt advisor trying to claim power, or a Baron secretly aiding the baddies, or a church trying to start up a mad Inquisition to bolster it's own power.

That way, you get your noble crusade against unrestrained evil and the Party gets their rebellion boner. Win-win.

>> No.70816493

>>70816182
>If you're loved by God he will bring you wealth
Possibly, but God had some very choice words for anyone who chose to hold onto that wealth.

>> No.70818300

>>70816182
>Staying poor means you are hated by God, so programs designed to help the poor are subverting God's will. That's ACTUALLY heresy

And what parts of scripture back up this idea?

>> No.70818380

>>70806101
>tyrannous empire
Oh jeez why would anyone belonging to a democracy not want to identify with a tyranical empire? Oh wonder why.
>crusaders smiting heathens and invaders in the name of God
Oh jeez why would anyone belonging to a secular state not want to identify with religious warfare? Oh wonder why.

Your shitpost sucks and you should feel bad. Go play some traditional games you hack.

>> No.70818382

>>70816182
>Staying poor means you are hated by God
the contrary, the poor are in graces of God just fine
>And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
- Luke 6:20

>> No.70818500

>>70816182
Enjoy hell retard 99% of Christian's are burning in hell right now. Hell anyone following Saul's heresy is 100% burning. Jesus never indicates to stop following jewish religious laws. That's entirely derived from saul who "had a vision" and not supported by jesus or any of the apostles.

Also keep your SJW culture war shit out of games you giants faggots.

>> No.70818793

>>70814467
>It absolutely does though.
It doesn't. That's a lie that's being told in order to manipulate voters.

>> No.70818829

>>70809158
>And become comically in debt?
So doctors should work for free? Like slaves?
>>70809187
>And then they get fired for missing work or end up in such debt that everything they go bankrupt.
Yeah, missing work is bad, but we have these crazy things called "days off" that everyone can get. If you have some financial need to work 7 days a week, your shit life choices will not be solved by health care. Also, the fault there lies with the hypothetical employer acting like an asshole, not with the health care system in the first place.
>>70809476
Guess not.

>> No.70818850

>>70809126
>They have taken more than they paid in.
You don't know how social security works do you?

>> No.70818861

>>70818829
>Yeah, missing work is bad, but we have these crazy things called "days off" that everyone can get.

Days off don't always line up with when you get sick and a lot of America has Right to Work, giving employees very little protection from being fired if they're going to be needing to be off work for a few days/weeks.

>> No.70819000

>>70818829
>So doctors should work for free? Like slaves?

There is options between 'Doctors get no pay' and 'The healthcare system puts people heavily in debt for needed services'. A lot of countries manage that one.

>> No.70819051

>>70819000
Yeah, socialist countries. America isn't and shouldn't be socialist. If people being put into medical debt is what's required to keep America free of socialism, then I'm fine with people being in debt.

>> No.70819135

>>70807341
What a big fat strawman you're beating.

>> No.70819229

>>70806273
Surprised you didn't shill your RPG, Vargs

>> No.70820422

>>70815804
>Russia was the asshole of Europe until Lenin lead the people in revolt and Stalin industrialized it.
The Czar had already planned and put into motion measures to industrialize Russia (the same way the socialist party of Weimar had planned the autobahns before Hitler built them). The only thing the Bolsheviks did was murder-rape him and his family and then take the reform program, scribble their own names under it and proceed to kill millions of their subjects because they couldn't wait to become powerful enough to violently conquer the rest of Europe in the name of the "international revolution". Russia could have been a decent nation but instead it turned into a century of hell.

>> No.70820515
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70820515

My general rule of writing is all sides are generally shitty but also generally okay.
Like, yeah the government still does some fucked up shadow shit. But you can still go to the sev and get a slurpee.

>> No.70820542

>>70810051
>What if the Empire is a heathen one (you know... Like the Persian or later Ottomans were) and the players are Valiant Crusading resistance members?
Actually, that's straight up the Narnia books isn't it

>> No.70820638

>>70806794
Which was mostly just a way of giving more power to individual barons

>> No.70820692

>>70806446
>The reason why the Western world recoils from Islam is because Islam is infinitely crueler than any Western religion.
History didn't begin on 9/11, or even in the Seventies, enough with this shit.

>> No.70820760

>>70820422
>The Czar had already planned and put into motion measures to industrialize Russia

Oh, good, so he was going to upstage the landowners himself by destroying every rural economy in Russia.

Industrialization doesn't mean prosperity. Industrialization was a disaster for the working class, the working class didn't see any gains until liberal reforms started redistributing the wealth, which in most places didn't start happening until the 30s.

>> No.70820766

>>70819051
>free of socialism
According to your implied definition, those "socialist countries" vary from Cuba to Norway. Are you seriously arguing that Norway has a worse quality of life than the US?

>> No.70820797

>>70820760
This is Russia we are talking about. Ass backwards, behind the times Russia. It needed to modernize at some point, sooner would have been better than later even with hiccups and injustice occurring before things got better.

Also I don't really think there was ever going to be a perfectly gentle transition that was equitable and worked smoothly for everyone. Again, Russia.

Land of "And Then It Got Worse" for a really long period of time.

>> No.70820826

>>70820766

Not him but fuck off with the "muh Norway" argument. Norway is an edge case and able to handle the financial burden more easily due to its oil profits relative to population size. Norway is not a scenario that's able to be maintained in most other countries.

>> No.70820832

>>70806996
>Most people into /tg/ already know that the Catholic church was seventeen different kinds of fucked-up in the days of the Crusades.

The crusades were launched within the same century as the Peace and Truce of God movements started by the Church, and the crusades were also a reaction to the rampaging, Muslim Seljuk Turks.

>> No.70820847

>>70807814
>Because it's what Tolkien did.

????
THE RETURN OF THE KING

>> No.70820861

>>70820847
Exactly, King, not Emperor, and they were fighting against the expansionist tyrannical Sauron.

>> No.70820868

>>70820832
>The crusades were launched within the same century as the Peace and Truce of God movements

Only the Truce of God. Peace was the previous century.

>> No.70820872

>>70820797

So you accept that the existing power structure was evil, and you accept that industrialization would have only made that worse, correct?

>Russia could have been a decent nation

This is a lie. It's one of those lies that plays into the overall myth of capitalism, equating "economic advancement" with freedom and liberty. No. Bullshit. Liberal democracy equates to freedom and liberty. Industrialization without liberal democracy is a dystopia.

>> No.70820877

>>70820826

Except it's not just Norway. There a lot of countries that have socialised medicine of varying degrees that works very well for them.

>> No.70820900

>>70820826
>Norway is not a scenario that's able to be maintained in most other countries.
What about Finaland, then?
Or Australia?
Or France?
Or Italy?

Unless the definition of "most other countries on Earth" is "90% of the world's nations are capable of pulling it off no matter what" (in which case, no shit, most of the countries in the world are fucking poor), there's no way you can argue that the US has a much higher standard of living than anyone else.

>> No.70820946

>>70820877
>a lot

You mean all? Every other free country has "socialist medicine" by U.S. standards. Privatized health insurance is a retarded ameriburger scam.

>> No.70821117

>>70806101
We have this thread every week.
People like underdog stories.
You should know this by now.

>> No.70821135

>>70809057
Utterly BTFO

>> No.70821141

>>70806531
>How about our continuing inability to understand, prevent and treat mental health issues?
That's because mental health is a moving target. What is considered healthy is largely subjective, determined by politics, cultural norms and stuff like that. Nobody really understands how the brain works, and even mental health professionals work on a 'best guess' basis. Add to that the fact that psych meds have hugely unpredictable effects, and you're faced with an absolute clusterfuck of a problem.

Mental health won't improve for a long time, I can guarantee you that. The best thing we can do at the moment is to stop romanticizing the idea of mental health issues, to keep all these pretentious, attention-seeking dickwads at bay and hopefully preserve some mental health resources for those who actually need them.

>> No.70821152

>>70821117

Stories of real heroism are always underdog stories.

"Let's purge the evil backwards natives with our superior morals and weaponry" is a retarded power-fantasy. Yes, it does happen in real life, in which case it's just a retarded power-fantasy playing out in real life.

>> No.70821153

>>70806700
Not even close to every infant. They recently started charging money for circumcisions, and the number of circumcised babies dropped like a stone.

Of course, there should be no circumcised babies at all, but America is insane, so what do you do.

>> No.70821164

>Why isn't my ideology always portrayed positively
Because people disagree with you

>> No.70821182

>>70821152
I would unironically play that. Civilizing the natives with fire and sword, like the Conquistadors.

>> No.70821194

>>70820422
>The Czar had already planned and put into motion measures to industrialize Russia
1. Nicolas II didn't plan jack shit. He was extremely uninvolved in administrating his Empire despite having some of the most overblown authority in the history of absolutism. That was one of the significant reasons behind February and eventual October becoming inevitable developments.
2. They already did try to implement said miraculous measures. The outcome is known as "Russian Revolution of 1905".

>then take the reform program, scribble their own names under it
The _agrarian_ Bolshies ended up implementing was taken wholesale from Esers - social-democrats, who experienced a split in 1917, with their left wing eventually being absorbed into Bolshies (a taking their reform with them). The _industrialization plan_ was specifically Bolshies own invention.

>to violently conquer the rest of Europe in the name of the "international revolution"
The main proponent of global revolution - Lev Trotsky - ended his life with a Soviet agent's ice-pick lodged int his brain. Stalin's policy was "socialism in one state". Thing is - "socialism in one state" does not grant one a pardon from participation in the global politics.

Get BTFO, historylet.

>>70820797
>Industrialization doesn't mean prosperity.
True. The thing is - lack of industrialization absolutely with 100% certainly means poverty and destitute.

>> No.70821204

>>70821141
>Mental health is a movie target

Yes.

>And this is the reason for our continuing inability to understand, prevent and treat mental health issues

lol no. Americans are retarded at mental health. And the American healthcare system, as it relates to mental health, is retarded even by our own retarded standards.

You shouldn't expect a perfect solution but you should expect some basic competence. Your post is a great example of what Americans like to do, by the way. They say "Nothing is perfect and this problem will never be completely solved". They say this even when excusing blatant and preventable corruption or incompetence.

>> No.70821249

>>70821194
>True. The thing is - lack of industrialization absolutely with 100% certainly means poverty and destitute.

This is wrong. Poor people in the U.S. enjoyed a much higher standard of life before the industrial revolution than they did during the industrial revolution.

Their standard of living did improve dramatically AFTER the depression, but that wasn't because of industrialization, that was because of liberal policies which redistributed the wealth created by industrialization.

>> No.70821252

>>70821194
>1. and 2.
To prevent misunderstandings - the reforms of Czarist government were planned and implemented by it's ministers (future Kadet conservators to be BTFO in revolution so bad they didn't even form of political force once the shit started flying), with Czar himself frequently being the biggest obstacle on the way of said reforms, since his authority was absolute, but lacked absolutely any plan or policy for implementing said vitally necessary reforms, granting ministries the necessary resources and powers to do so one day and revoking them and replacing half of ministers seemingly on a whim the next day.

And by the 1910s, it was already way too late to preserve the old regime even in a scenario where it suddenly stopped being the most backwards-ass and corrupt administrate structure in Europe. And historically it remained one all the way until Bolshies made a short work of it.

>> No.70821277

>>70806101
>How do we get people to better appreciate stories of blood-drunk criminals invading people on shaky grounds, massacring innocents, and then reneging on their vows at the end
I have no idea.

>> No.70821287

>>70821182

Sounds like literally-ever-video-game-ever-made. The native monsters in each level are bad, and they are weaker than you, they need you to kill them. I didn't say it wasn't satisfying, I just said it was a retarded power-fantasy, it's one of those stories that's never really true but we keep telling it because it feels good.

>> No.70821291

>>70806284
In the modern world, every first-world nation is the Empire. We're fighting Islamic rebels, who are as close to a real-life Chaos cult as you can get. That's why 40K strikes such a cord with so many people, it's truer to life.

The Imperium is mighty and the bastion of humanity, but Chaos is at the door.

>> No.70821294

>>70808867
Employment numbers are literal fake news. You just choose to believe them now because it's donnie telling the story

>> No.70821316

>>70808867
Employment goes up as wages go down and benefits to the poor are cut.
Wageslavery.

>> No.70821328
File: 16 KB, 350x222, tno_nrf.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70821328

>>70806101
What if I want to smite the king and country in the name of God?

>> No.70821329

>>70821249
>Poor people in the U.S. enjoyed a much higher standard of life before the industrial revolution
"Higher" does not mean "good" or decent. Industrialization and urbanization allow the elites to reach new levels of exploitation, impossible prior, but that does not mean that they were not exploiting the populace as hard as they could prior to that - and said pre-industrial exploitation had absolutely no prospect of bright future due to the objective issue of limited manufacturing efficiency (you know - that whole product/man-hour thing that is the whole reason for industrialization?). We know the inevitable development outcome of every agrarian economy - serfdom under land-owning elite.

>that was because of liberal policies which redistributed the wealth created by industrialization
How would said policies ever exist WITHOUT industrialization? They are it's direct outcome. there is no such thing as "pre-industrial liberal democracy", unless we broaden the definitions to allow for a ridiculous amount of slave-ownership.

>> No.70821348

>>70821291
Ah yes, the Imperium, the empire where humans literally life worse lives than in the T'au empire.

>> No.70821382

>>70821348
The same Tau Empire that relies upon literal mind control to keep their own citizens from reverting into savagery? How about the sterilizations and deliberately cullings? Or how they enslaved the entire Vespid species?

Face it, the Tau are just as bad. The Imperium, at least, is honest about what it is.

>> No.70821395

>>70821382
The Imperium uses mind control too retard, and they don't bother to sterilize their rebelling populations, they just executed them.

>> No.70821431

>>70821182
This. It's like the conquest of the Wild West, fighting savage Indians, or the British colonial era. It's why steampunk was always popular as hell.

>> No.70821444

>>70816182
>MUH GERSPERL UF PROSPEEEERITEE!
So you fell for the retard consolation prize of the scam world, gotcha. What you signed up for is basically just a ponzi scheme with some vaguely christian bits thrown on top of it.

>>70820542
>that's straight up the Narnia books isn't it
Except for the ones that are about punching Satan in the face, pretty much yeah.

>>70806700
>Every infant's penis is dismembered immediately after birth without their consent
Not in civilised countries m8.

>> No.70821467
File: 38 KB, 499x338, 1464963899241.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70821467

>>70806101
>why do people enjoy trite unoriginal narrative?!
>people should enjoy my trite unoriginal narrative instead!!!!

>> No.70821533

>>70821329
>We know the inevitable development outcome of every economy that doesn't have liberal democracy - serfdom under land-owning elite.

I'm sorry but the way you had it was kind of dishonest.

If you're saying "Industrialization leads to liberal democracy, because it creates nightmarish conditions for most people, which inspires people to invent liberal democracy"? I can basically agree with that. But it's not like this is the only historical event that has ever or could ever give people a push towards self-governance and robinhood taxation.

>> No.70821539

>>70806189
Ironically, the original Battle Royale is the most realistic take on it. By the end of the novel, the idealistic main character has completely abandoned them (he shoots and kills multiple soldiers, and guns down a police officer during a routine ID check) and his victory is to flee the country with the last remaining survivor.

It's even discussed. He vows to avenge his friend, and his friend tells him "No, idiot. Run the fuck away. Find something else to do with your life." The Hunger Games ignored this, because when you have ragtag rebels versus a state government, it doesn't end with V-salutes and shooting down drones with bow amd arrows. It ends with the government sending tanks rolling into Tiananmen Square and killing everyone they see.

>> No.70821545
File: 122 KB, 1200x773, Authoritarianism is Too Deep for You.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70821545

>>70821382
>The Imperium, at least, is honest about what it is.

No it isn't. Jesus Christ. 40k fans are terrifying when they talk about politics.

>> No.70821572

>>70821539
The one thing I never understood is why they don't send indoctrinated teens against them. Would that be too dark? You know, like the Hitler Youth.

>> No.70821576

>>70821533
> But it's not like this is the only historical event that has ever or could ever give people a push towards self-governance and robinhood taxation.
It's the only one that consistently works out.

Obviously it's not "the one solution" or "end of history" - just a stage of historic development, but a generally inevitable one. The rest are more or less dead-ends.

>> No.70821602

>>70821572
That would make shit too real, and it would take away from the uniqueness factor of the main characters.

>> No.70821616

>>70821545
>That pic
Biggest flaw with authoritarianism is assuming the authority can be trusted to put the needs of the citizens over their own desires.

>> No.70821626

>>70821539
Wait, when did Shuya start killing people? Did I miss that?

>> No.70821629

>>70808218
>Alan Moore meant for it to be up to interpretation.
Like hell he did. V for Vendetta was him bitching about Thatcher and other political issues that where happening in Great Britain during the time he was writing the comic and Moore has admitted as much.

>> No.70821656

>>70821626
He kills every soldier on the boat. Even Shogo is taken aback by the carnage. It's all in the original novel.

>> No.70821670

>>70818861
Too bad it's still not a health care issue, but rather a bad boss issue.
>>70819000
It's not about no pay, it's about being legally required to provide a service whether you like it or not. Health care as a right makes doctors into slaves.

>> No.70821671

>>70821576
>The rest are more or less dead-ends.

You have absolutely no reason to believe this. No one can prove you wrong, because this history/timeline is the only one we have to go on, but there is still no reason for you to believe that industrialization is essential to freedom. You're just spreading the capitalist myth.

At best (and I don't quite agree, but) you could take the broader position of "To get freedom, start with a semi-autonomous semi-free people, and then give them a strong push towards tyranny". Recognizing that the industrial revolution was, in fact, a strong push towards tyranny.

This is important because automation is basically the same thing. People are treating it like it's a gain for society-at-large, and of course it's the opposite, it's a way to destroy our existing economy and to create a more centralized one. The only way it's going to be a good thing is if it pisses people off and liberalizes them.

>> No.70821715

>>70821616

I don't know how to respond to that idea. It's not that I disagree, it just that I would describe authoritarianism as one big flaw, so "the biggest flaw with authoritarianism" seems like a surreal premise to me.

Was there a single time in human history when authoritarianism "prevented subversion by external forces"? I mean, if we ignore the fact that authoritarianism IS subversion by external forces, if we take that "Jimbo might be a tyrant but he's our tyrant" premise for granted, what are some examples of times when other '"external" forces were trying to "subvert" people but their authoritarianism prevented it?

>> No.70821720

>>70819000
>>70821670
The real issue is, even if you pay for all medical care via taxes, no one ever even sees a medical bill, no copays, nothing, you're still paying, just via the government as a proxy. And that's third party spending, using someone else's money to pay for something you won't be using, and that is never nor can possibly be efficient. Government provided health care is a shit idea. The way to fix it is to fix how insurance companies operate. It's not a health care issue at all, it never was. It's an insurance issue. Fix THAT, and the rest falls into place by default.

>> No.70821729

>>70821670
>Health care as a right makes doctors into slaves

No it doesn't. You're being a tool. Please think about this a little bit harder.

>> No.70821746

Because everyone hates pathetic impotent incels and their sad little power fantasies

>> No.70821762

>>70821746
Being a rebel against an oppressive government and WINNING is even more of a power fantasy, you muppet.

>> No.70821775

>>70821671
>You have absolutely no reason to believe this. No one can prove you wrong, because this history/timeline is the only one we have to go on, but there is still no reason for you to believe that industrialization is essential to freedom.
If we subscribe to that logic then we have absolutely no reason not to attempt another Communist revolution for establishing a dictatorship of proletariat that will be able to transit us to post-scarcity most efficiently.

>Recognizing that the industrial revolution was, in fact, a strong push towards tyranny.
Industrial revolution was not a push - it was an inevitable outcome of technological development. Once it was possible, you either built factories or became a colony for someone who built factories.

>This is important because automation is basically the same thing.
It is.

>People are treating it like it's a gain for society-at-large, and of course it's the opposite
It is a gain because the development of means of production is the only real driver behind social development. The only way you get up from hunter-gatherer society dominated by the most literal rule of the strong is by making tools which make agriculture possible, making the rule of the strong a little less literal. And it stays the same way until the tools are so advanced that any concept of "being stronger/more powerful than another" loses any meaning.

>The only way it's going to be a good thing is if it pisses people off and liberalizes them.
And it inevitably will. The ruling class cannot infinitely adapt it's power structure to new modes of production. Sooner or later it becomes unnecessary in the new economy. At which point it is either usurped by a new ruling elite, or we find out that the production is sophisticated enough for power hierarchies to be detrimental to them - tyranny becomes a bad strategy. Which is the only way it dies. Until then it is inevitable.

>> No.70821786

>>70821670
>It's not about no pay, it's about being legally required to provide a service whether you like it or not. Health care as a right makes doctors into slaves.
And when it is a paid service, that was paid for, a doctor can just refuse to perform it?

>> No.70821793

>>70821715
Some /pol/ fag is gonna say "it's happening right now! The libs are destroying the western world!"
But that is assuming the western world was authoritarian to begin with, which it isn't. (Unless you consider the old monarchies the western world).
That pic was just completely baseless and retarded.

>> No.70821811

>>70821720
>>70821720
>And that's third party spending, using someone else's money to pay for something you won't be using, and that is never nor can possibly be efficient.

Tell me you aren't relying on your country's army to protect you.
Tell me that you aren't using your country's roads or public utilities.
Tell me that you weren't publicly educated. Wait, nevermind, you obviously had a public education.

Capitalist healthcare means that people don't go to the doctor unless they happen to have disposable income at the same time they get sick. This means that capitalist healthcare is healthcare without preventative care. People don't go to the doctor until it's a health crisis, and health crises are vastly more expensive than preventative care.

Someone goes to the doctor for a weird lump. It isn't causing them any trouble right now, but the visit is free, so they go as soon as they notice the lump. The lump turns out to be nothing, so they are relieved, and they go home. Your commie-hating ameriburger instincts might tell you that this is evil wasteful socialism, but actually, this is a best-case scenario. This is what you want.

>> No.70821834

>>70821762
It isn't. It implies some fidelity towards a certain political universality, usually to total freedom from subjugation or what have you.
The incel fantasy masquerades as fidelity but it really isn't. It is just an excuse to feel powerful in raping and killing with impunity because they feel impotent in their real lives. The second their noble king that they swear fealty towards doesn't want them to rape and kill they will abandon it.

>> No.70821837

>>70821762
Honestly, trying to fight the military and political power of an actual dictatorship is more ridiculous than working to support it. The latter is achievable, the former is suicide. We've all seen how well the protestors in HK stood up against the China-backed police.

Shit's impossible.

>> No.70821884

>>70821834
You're projecting a bit hard, innit? Pendragon is a game where you play a knight supporting the righteous King Arthur. Same for most JRPGs, particularly Dragon Quest, where you're in service to the King.

There's a distinct lack of rape and murder in those.

>> No.70821900

>>70821775
>It is a gain because the development of means of production is the only real driver behind social development.

This is dogma. Saying something over and over doesn't make it true.

>The only way you get up from hunter-gatherer society dominated by the most literal rule of the strong is by making tools which make agriculture possible, making the rule of the strong a little less literal.

LESS literal? LESS? Jesus christ, do you actually believe that the agricultural revolution made it HARDER to be a tyrant?

>And it stays the same way until the tools are so advanced that any concept of "being stronger/more powerful than another" loses any meaning.

What a stupid fantasy. This is the kind of thing that people buy into because they don't want to take responsibility for their own fate.

We could be free, we could be slaves forever, we could destroy ourselves within the generation. Nothing is written in stone. It all depends on how we choose to live our lives, and that is a scary premise, so some of us hide behind the illusion of an inevitable future.

>And it inevitably will. The ruling class cannot infinitely adapt it's power structure to new modes of production. Sooner or later it becomes unnecessary in the new economy. At which point it is either usurped by a new ruling elite, or we find out that the production is sophisticated enough for power hierarchies to be detrimental to them - tyranny becomes a bad strategy. Which is the only way it dies. Until then it is inevitable.

visibledisgust.jpg

>> No.70821931

>>70821884
Hmm forgive me if OP posting a 'Dues vult' image and talk about killing 'heathens and invaders' somehow made me think he was a /pol/tard. That sure was a stretch.

>> No.70821973

>>70821931
You kill heathens and invaders as a knight, man. That's the point. Damn Saxons and Saracens always coming to fuck shit up until they get taught a serious lesson. That's what the warrior caste exists for.

>> No.70822010

>>70821900
>This is dogma. Saying something over and over doesn't make it true.
I gave arguments though. What do YOU have besides the dogma of idealists? When was the last time social development happened in divorce from material factors?

>LESS literal? LESS?
Less literal, in that the meaning of "being the strongest" went further away from "having the largest muscle mass and capacity to snap necks with your bear hands".

>This is the kind of thing that people buy into because they don't want to take responsibility for their own fate.
People can only control their individual fates, and only as far as the society around them allows it. We can't, for example, all become tyrants over one another if we all equally will to do so. The reality itself dictates that a conflict will ensure, some will succeed and some will fail (perhaps by a pure chance), and become their slaves - reality crushing our ideals into it's mold once again.

>We could be free, we could be slaves forever, we could destroy ourselves within the generation
This is dogma. And a stupid fantasy as well.

>Nothing is written in stone.
World is build of stone. You can't make a stone fly up against the force of gravity under it's own power - you must make someone do the work that results in the stone being lifted for you. To do so, you must have power over the labor of the stone being lifted - be it your own labor or someone else's, bought or forced.

>visibledisgust.jpg
Who's spreading the capitalist myth now?

>> No.70822187

>>70822010

I don't think that your position is solid enough for examples to matter. But we could try.

For instance, we could talk about Cuba. American tyrants optimized Cuba to produce child prostitutes and sugar, then they rebelled, so we stopped buying their meat and put an embargo on their sugar. Nevertheless, the life of the average Cuban improved steadily and dramatically over the next 50 years, and the Cuban economy is now far healthier than it was under U.S. rule. Nevertheless, you'll hear capitalists citing cuba to prove the capitalist myth (that "development of means of production is the only real driver behind social development"). They can point to GDP figures for what Cuba was back when it was 100% sugar plantations and resorts, and point out that communist Cuba "produced less" than capitalist Cuba.

For my purposes, this proves my point. This proves that freedom and liberty have little to do with how much is being produced. Producing more doesn't automatically make you free. Freedom comes from controlling your own capacity for production. It's better to manage your own agrarian economy than it is to live under the industrial economy of another.

Whats your take? Do you say that the Cubans could have been more prosperous and free if they'd kept the mouths full of American cock? Or you you say that they advanced their own economy, and that they enjoyed their own "industrial revolution", thus proving your point about how all social development stems from material development?

>Less literal, in that the meaning of "being the strongest" went further away from "having the largest muscle mass and capacity to snap necks with your bear hands".

It didn't, though. Agrarian society was still LITERAL rule-of-the-strongest. Having standardized manufactured weapons doesn't make that statement any less literal.

>Tyranny is inevitable

Ever heard of self-governance?

>Tyranny will cure itself in the magical post-scarcity future

visibledisguist.jpg

>> No.70822220
File: 65 KB, 512x355, unnamed.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70822220

>>70822187
>Ever heard of self-governance?
Not him but that didn't work out so well the last time it was tried.

>> No.70822243
File: 226 KB, 563x651, dumb fuck juice.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70822243

>>70822220

Yes it did. You are proof. Jesus Christ you people are cucked.

>> No.70822259
File: 39 KB, 500x352, b03f021c420bc5d8d717e16981989f5c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70822259

>>70822243
The revolution was defeated anon.

>> No.70822304

>>70822187
>we stopped buying their meat and put an embargo on their sugar
You do remember that they found an new trade partner? Namely the USSR, which had Cuba as literally the single largest of it's trade partners (specifically to support Cuban economy, to maintain a friendly potential missile launchpad near American costs)?

>Whats your take? Do you say that the Cubans could have been more prosperous and free if they'd kept the mouths full of American cock?
I'd say that Cubans would have a better standard of living today if their main power backer and trade partner didn't happen to collapse 30 years ago.

>Agrarian society was still LITERAL rule-of-the-strongest
LOCAL LORDS dominated disorganized tribal societies through the power of their ORGANIZED MEN AT ARMS and their FULL HARNESS despite frequently being less physically imposing though, in meme-speak. Discipline, numbers, logistics and equipment prevailed over brute force.

>Having standardized manufactured weapons doesn't make that statement any less literal.
It does. It makes strength more complex.

>Ever heard of self-governance?
A meme.

>visibledisguist.jpg
Great arguement.

>> No.70822326
File: 25 KB, 679x529, 71oTWOWnfTL._AC_UX679_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70822326

>>70806636

>> No.70822340
File: 48 KB, 500x332, wolffish.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70822340

>>70822259

All free countries are built on the principles of self-regulating liberal democracy.

Which is to say, all free countries are built on the principle of self-governance. Self-governance is responsible for the highest standards of living ever achieved in human history. The wealth and liberty which you personally enjoy are almost certainly due to self-governance. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm talking to some Chinese aristocrat here, but I'm 99.9999% sure that you wouldn't be posting here if not for the blood, sweat and tears that your fellow citizens have paid to keep you free.

>> No.70822362

>>70822340
I wouldn't call it self-governance when the masses of people can decide how you live your life, when the Federal laws affecting a Wyoming citizen represent the interests of states like California far more than they do his own interest. What we have is collective governance.

>> No.70822534

>>70822304
>I'd say that Cubans would have a better standard of living today if their main power backer and trade partner didn't happen to collapse 30 years ago.

I don't buy that. A USSR which doesn't collapse is a USSR which continues to squeeze its satellite states. Their allegiance with the USSR was shrewd, and protected them to some degree against immediate U.S. aggression, but when the USSR fell decades later that paved the way for Cuba to normalize relations with other countries including the U.S.

In any event, you can agree that they made themselves more free by rejecting American industrialization, right?

Western-style sugar farming technology didn't improve Cuba's condition, but communist insurrection DID improve Cuba's condition, because economic advancement isn't the same thing as freedom. You can agree with that right?

Of course you can't.

>LOCAL LORDS dominated disorganized tribal societies through the power of their ORGANIZED MEN AT ARMS and their FULL HARNESS despite frequently being less physically imposing though, in meme-speak. Discipline, numbers, logistics and equipment prevailed over brute force.

Bullshit. Discipline, number, logistics and equipment multiplied brute force. Pre-agrarian life was less about literal brute force. Agrarian life was more about literal brute force.

This is a pathetic semantic argument you're trying to make, but it's not like there are better points you could be making. Technological advancement isn't freedom. It would be more accurate to say that technological advancement is tyranny, but it's not quite that simple, the truth is that freedom and tyranny can each be more or less advanced. The notion of due process, the notion of the consent of the governed, the notion of free speech, all of these are hard-won advancements in the technology of freedom.

Material technologies can advance the state of freedom, yes, but only when those technologies are dispersed freely.

>> No.70822578

>>70822362

All governance is collective, so I don't think that's a very good term, but semantics aren't that important to me. We can just say "democracy", as long as you understand that I mean "democracy" in the broad sense. I don't think that a U.S. style Republic is the best form of democracy, I think we're still trying to figure out what the best form of democracy is, but we already know that democracy is the best form of government.

>> No.70822765
File: 72 KB, 919x829, grapefruit.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70822765

>>70806101
Are you kidding? That's what this board's been pushing for a good ten years now. You can see it on the more normalfag parts of the internet too now.
>>70806189
God, why did this thread so immediately turn to shit.

>> No.70822779

>>70806311
I think you need to rewatch Wolf Brigade if "heroically shun the treacherous wiles of the rebels, to stand with my brothers in the pack" is what you thought happened.
>>70807806
Those goalposts though

>> No.70822793

>>70821973
There's loads of medieval stories which boil down to "the idiot jerk knight kills random heathens, the enlightened good knight is bros with the saracen". I'm not sure if they were so kind to pagans, though.

>> No.70823108

>>70806273
>I'm a tremendous racist
Hardly

>>70806273
Shit list, here's competent one:
>Diverse city is ruled by cabal
>Bloodline degeneration exists
>Orcs, goblins, elves and all other pseudo furries are under order of extermination, their place is either on desert or spear
>Woman tasks revolve around giving birth and dying and taking over mens tasks if male population is reduced by more then half
>Liberal ideas do not exist
>Sexual deviants do not exist
>Conflict resolves by men taking an action
>There are no "symphatic" backstories, just backstories, monarchs self proclaimed or not are all prosecuted

>> No.70823154

>>70806311
>missing the point of Wolf Brigade

Anon I...

>> No.70823160

>>70810958
The Blackstone Knights fall apart the minute they're all killed by the Warden's crew. Then they all split off into their own groups and fiefs because war kicks off with the Vikings/Samurai

>> No.70823164

>>70806560
I mean, there's not a campaign that can sell unironic conquest and god replacement as a good thing, unless you're literally crusading against real evil, in which case there's nothing to replace and no need for the pretense of religion.

>> No.70823203

>>70814294
Most subversions are never total changes and they usually backup before doing something particularly risky when it involves an established franchise

>> No.70823215

>>70806101
Because Robin Hood is a lot less depressing than Don Quixote.

>> No.70823220

>>70821671
>you have no evidence except the overwhelming evidence of thousands of years

gee, you've really convinced a bystander into buying your argument

>> No.70823240

>>70822326
Stay mad torture tard

>> No.70823241

>>70806189
On the one hand, you're pretty good.
On the other, that was bait and you just fell for it.

>> No.70823250

>>70823220

What are you talking about?

>> No.70823299

>>70823250
>Imagine trying to argue with larping Jew on /tg/
He himself does not know what he ment, most likely doesn't even play tabletops and is here just to shitpost

>> No.70823345

>>70823299

Shitposter.

>> No.70823552

>>70806189
This is a good post and there was absolutely 0 good counterpoints in the upset replies of soÿ and trannies.

I would add that most of this fake rebellion is coming from completely uprooted people, they don't feel connected to their land, the history of their ancestors or their heritage. Most probably don't even know the name of their great grandfather for example nor read any western classics since they're out of school.

They're ready to burn something they don't even really know.

>> No.70823574

>>70806334
The insidious rise of global communism

>> No.70823799

The ideal knight sword is one handed, two handed, or a hand and a half?

>> No.70823803

>>70822534
>I don't buy that. A USSR which doesn't collapse is a USSR which continues to squeeze its satellite states.
The relationship was way more complicated than that. There's a reason why the easternmost European satellites experienced a population plummet right after the collapse. And Cuba was anything but "squeezed". It was Soviet's gun against US head. They did all in their power to keep it well-oiled and shiny. For them, Cub was an extremely expensive little project.

>but when the USSR fell decades later that paved the way for Cuba to normalize relations with other countries including the U.S.
Obviously, but US has no need of nice and stable Cuba like Soviets did.

>In any event, you can agree that they made themselves more free by rejecting American industrialization, right?
They rejected American political control, accepting the Soviet one (and Soviet industrialization), which in that particular historic circumstance made them more free. Communist revolutions were so fashionable in that period of time because socialist dictatorship and being a useful tool for the Soviets was indeed both more economically viable and free than a puppet plutocracy under a pseudo-colonial regime for a metropoly that doesn't really need them.

>economic advancement isn't the same thing as freedom
it isn't the same indeed - you CAN have more economic advancement while receiving less freedom. But you CAN'T receive more freedom without economic advancement. Poverty is the objective bondage - non-freedom not by will of the others, but by the sheer reality of scarcity. That's why some of the more useful Western-bloc satellites eventually developed into liberal-democratic regimes following their stable economic growth, despite spending most of the Cold War as fascist dictatorships - like Portugal and South Korea.

>Pre-agrarian life was less about literal brute force
That's straight-up wrong. Bow was used to kill other people for as long as it was used to hunt game.

>> No.70823892

>>70822534
>Technological advancement isn't freedom.
True, but it's the only source of freedom.

>The notion of due process, the notion of the consent of the governed, the notion of free speech
Curious how all those concepts did not develop in any pre-agrarian societies for many thousands of years of their existence, eh?

>all of these are hard-won advancements in the technology of freedom
Social technologies are built around the economic foundations of the society. Property rights and laws were a product of complicated property processes - complex trade and exchange. It could not exist before massive merchant-trade. And merchant-trade was a direct product of agrarian and, later, colonial and industrial mode of production. You can't have the Areopagus or the Roman Senate without a slavery economy. You can't have Guilds without manufactures. You can't have labor unions without factories. Technology emerges as a product of scientific progress and dominates reality through production it makes possible - those who adopt it become better-fed, better armed, more mobile and more powerful overall, those who reject it perish in the competition. That way new technology and it's new mode of production becomes undeniable - a society that wishes to survive MUST adopt it, MUST modernize. As this adoption happens, all the social relations surrounding that mode of production - who works how for who's benefit on what conditions and what is allowed and what is forbidden etc - becomes codified. it becomes codified in a way that facilitates efficient production - because when it gets in the way of production the less effective economy does not survive the competition. Not just laws, but the morality and ethics themselves are defined by the mode of production. Owning a slave in an industrial society - unimaginable! Owning a slave in an early agrarian society - only natural, how would we even live without them?

>> No.70823996

>>70823892
You muricans must be hell of crackheads
I thought that freedom'n'shit was just a meme

>> No.70824082

>>70823996
Not a murrican. I'm posting for a post-Soviet country right now.

>> No.70824094

>>70806101
America was built on revolution and revolution has remained a strong core of the our national identity. It’s why tech companies talk about how disruptive they are, why presidential candidates run on their policies for reform and their oppositional stance to the status quo (characterized entirely by their opponent’s party), and why so many companies fight stagnancy.

>> No.70824243

>>70822779
That's what he wants to take away from it. I've watched Cabaret, and I couldn't help but think that the Nazis were a good thing since they got rid of all the degeneracy. I had no sympathy for the main characters at all, and I hope they went right to the gas chambers.

>> No.70824251

>>70823164
The Lord of the Rings. The good guys invade Mordor, Sauron gets killed, and the Orcs are broken as a species. Aragorn kills as many as he can during his righteous reign as king.

>> No.70824296

>>70824243
>That's what he wants to take away from it
But it's literally wrong. He doesn't shun the treacherous wiles of the rebels, he fucking falls for them, and he doesn't stand with his brothers, he half-heartedly falls in line with some of his brothers so he can kill the other ones in an act of sanitised (supposedly authoritarian) rebellion.
You're just seeing the same piece of art and interpreting it differently due to your different morals. Your interpretation is retarded, but it's not factually wrong.

>> No.70824445

>>70806101
>These days
The noble rebellion is ingrained in many cultures.

>> No.70824456
File: 1.25 MB, 1157x1053, 6bf396b7b80bf5098677fa54ad044f40-imagejpeg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70824456

>>70806101
Make the two stories one and the same.

>> No.70824504

>>70824456
Are you seriously trying to imply the Confederates were noble or enlightened? Anon, are you seriously forgetting the fact that they're treasonous, treacherous little bastards who had the temerity to rebel against the rest of their nation and yet did NOT return to the fold of the British Empire like they should?

>> No.70824592

>>70824504
>rebel against the rest of their nation and yet did NOT return to the fold of the British Empire
Sounds based

>> No.70824601

>>70824592
If you're a traitor, sure.

>> No.70826765

>>70821884
Yeah, but those arent conquistadors. A bunch of dudes keep mentioning conquistadors.

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