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70724186 No.70724186 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

In DnD....
Where Gods exist objectively....

>> No.70724229
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70724229

>>70724186
So? Allow him and see how it unravels. In case of problems, summon the god of consequences. Now go, young Padawan and sin no more.

>> No.70724247

Man, I'm an atheist irl, but yeah, doing so in a setting where gods are provably real is just stupid. Is he a fedoracore for real?

Truth be told it can work if played for laughs. Equally he might have used the wrong word,perhaps what he meant was something along the lines of "Sure they exist, that doesn't make them worthy of my worship while innocents still suffer." or something along those lines.

However if after having this explained to him that they are demonstrably real he continues to act like a smug atheist just have the wider world treat him like the idiot he is. Idiocy deserves mockery.

>> No.70724260

>>70724186
>playing with atheist players
Never again. I remember the comfy days when christians were the better-than-thee moralizers.

Atheists are the most insufferable twats i've ever met.

>> No.70724283

>>70724186
Sure, go with it.
Big Hat Logan didn't believe in gods either, he just figured they were beings that were more powerful than everyone else and that you could become like them if you only knew how.

>> No.70724285

>>70724186
A way for it to work is for him to believe they are hyper powered super beings who can create planes and life itself, but are products of and are bound by rules greater than themselves that they cannot touch or violate. In short they could believe they are not the creators of reality but in the end he must respect their power if nothing else.

>> No.70724303
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70724303

>>70724186
Atheism would be stupid, but what about a character that simply rejects religion and god worship?

>> No.70724309

>>70724260
I have only met one atheist who was a huge faggot in real life which is way fewer than the number of asshole Christians I have ran into.

>> No.70724385
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70724385

"The gods are nothing more than extremely powerful, mighty and long living wizards, sorcerers, and warriors, residing in their personal planes of existance, who occasionally take pity of the small ants they see though their magical orbs and mirrors, toying with them in their boredom. Why not pray to some reclusive wizard who creates homunculi in the gloom of his extraplanar refuge? Indeed, that is what some degenerate goblin tribes do, pray that the decrepit wizard in the ruined tower does not smite them with his magical powers. Why should we lower ourselves to such bestial practice? Let us decide our destiny on our own!"
There you go.

>> No.70724436

Plenty of atheists in D&D settings, but to more accurate they are anti-theists who reject the god's authority and are piss angry about deities.

>> No.70724472

>>70724186
Anon, people believe the Earth is hollow and/or flat, and that real communism hasn't been tried. Reality has no bearing on what characters believe in.

>> No.70724473

>>70724186
Just because god exists doesn't mean I have to believe in him.

>> No.70724514

>>70724260
>I remember the comfy days when christians were the better-than-thee moralizers.

It's coming back, check out /pol/ recently. I swear to god they strive to be an Amish man driving his carriage to places.

>> No.70724529

>>70724186
Doesn’t mean his character can’t be wrong. It’s almost like if someone decides to believe something and ignore evidence to the contrary you’re saying that’s unrealistic.

Have everyone treat him as such. The bard with 20 CHA and a nat20 can’t convince a king to give them his kingdom, and an atheist surrounded by divine casters, arcane casters whose powers are relegated by divine beings, and people who have experienced creatures and entities from other worlds will treat him like the Hollow Earth guy or the 6,000-year-old Earth girl.

...I’m assuming he’s playing a high INT Wizard or arcane class variant...?

>> No.70724569

>>70724186
Seems like it could be an interesting source of entertainment. I say go for it.
Question, did he specify it he was an ardent atheist, or more along the lines of an apatheist or maybe a misotheist (which isn't an atheist at all)? Maybe he knows the gods exist, but just believes they are powerful magical beings and not actual gods?

>> No.70724573
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70724573

if you're gonna allow it, check out the paizo wiki since they have atheism in their setting so it might give you some idea on how to implement it in a setting filled with gods that intervene in everyday life

>> No.70724583

>>70724186
Who gives a fuck? Cynics that rejected God have existed since humans had cultures. The best way to play it is as so. >>70724247

>> No.70724624
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70724624

>>70724186
Top quality thread, OP. 200% authentic stories.
And so much /tg/ content

>> No.70724724

>>70724260
This entire site is turning into Christian Facebook grandpas now that the counterculture has shifted in that direction.
>>70724583
To be fair that is way easier to do in real life where God just seems like a convenient catch all excuse for things we don't understand as opposed to an actual real creature that you can talk to.

>> No.70724790

>>70724724
Yes, but my point is I agree with that anon and a few others in the thread. He may have just used the wrong terminology and cynically rejects the powerful beings as "gods." If he refuses to outright believe in them, he's your worlds equivalent of a flat earther. Treat him as such as it fits your world. Doing so is absolutely within reason as a DM.

>> No.70724829

>>70724186
See
Elder Evils - who can BTFO Deities by nerfing their God powers when in a fight - also NWN2's CE ending
Ur-Priests
An Entire planescape faction that shut's down divine spellcasting
The Black rain short adventure
I mean, being fedora is bad in D&D because you're giving the system the middle finger, and it's equatable to Tharizdun worship/Helping the assman of hell heal his wounds when your dumb-ass dies/Wall of the faithless- but it's an option.

>> No.70725248

>>70724186
If he's playing Kreia, then yes. Anything else? Fedoracore.

>> No.70725320
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70725320

>>70724186
>My player wants to make his character an atheist
>In DnD
Dumb newfags don't know about Planescape

>> No.70725368

>>70724583
Irl God does not give his clerics magical divine powers daily

>> No.70725393
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70725393

>>70724186
We've been over this countless times. Fantasy atheism isn't "Gods don't exist", its "The gods provide no benefit and take souls for their own greed. They deserve no such reverence"

>> No.70725447

>>70725368
In most dnd settings you can obtain divine powers from lots of things, not necessarily gods.

>> No.70725538

>>70724186
First of all: either let him and see what happens, or just say "no". Problem solved.

Secondly: there are hundreds of ways playing an atheist can be done in an interesting way. Several examples are already in the thread. Personally, I once played an "atheist" character, in the sense that he believed gods were simply forces of nature. The core idea was that the separation between elements and gods was a false notion of society. Prayer and spellcasting are actually the same action, with the mortal belief tacked on that the former is asking for permission and the latter is simply taking. Those who claim to speak for gods or receive visions from them, are no more or less delusional than those who claim the elements speak to them. It created some interesting discussions.

Don't like that? Pick another approach. Don't like any of them? Talk to your player.

>> No.70725611

>>70724260
Growing up in a christian town was the worst. Never known worse people in my life.

>> No.70725652

>>70724303
Or someone who believes the gods are just really powerful supernatural beings, but mortal, immoral, and is inherently opposed to their worship.

That could be cool.

>> No.70725671

>>70725611
Sad that you couldn't twerk in assless chaffs while fucking kids?

>> No.70725728

>>70725671
Do you even know where your food comes from, city boy?

>> No.70725730

>>70725538
Based and plays games.

>> No.70725803
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70725803

>imagine not using your big dick evil atheist energy to blow up shrines and statues of gods, and kill their followers en masse with your facts and logic

>> No.70727289

>>70724260
This. Never met an atheist that wasn't a raging cunt.

>> No.70727313

>>70727289
What if you have and they just never said anything about it?

>> No.70727318

>>70724186
I mean why not? God exists in our world and people still don't believe in him? What is so hard to understand that there are stupid people in the world?

>> No.70727358

>>70725393

That's not atheism, that's dystheism

>> No.70727362

>>70725611
No that's just boomers man.

>> No.70727410

>>70727313
Fair point. That was an uncharitable assumption I made.

>> No.70727439
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70727439

>>70724303
Someone's going to the 9 Hells to power Assmad when they die.

>> No.70727460

>>70727410
That's alright, just giving my perspective.

>> No.70727486
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70727486

>>70725611
>>70727289
It's almost like people are shit.

>> No.70727519

>>70724186

Do the Terry Pratchett thing. Atheists are the God's designated bullies, and everyone ostracize them to avoid getting the Gods angry at them too.

>> No.70727520

>>70724186
Allow him but have clerics and divine intervention torment him nonstop.

>> No.70727524

>>70727486
I miss Adi sometimes. Even if he was a neo-pagan art school failure.

>> No.70727570

Did you ask your player why they wanted to play as an atheist?

>> No.70728736

>>70724260
>t. Christian proselytizer who got kicked out of his group because the Atheist complained

>> No.70728928

>>70724186
Do various tests from various gods who discovered his existence to its own amusement and watch how he handles it.

>> No.70729003

>>70724309
>Christians
Trad values, family, integrity, Deus Vult

>athiests
Kindergarten drag queens, "science", evolutionary """theory""", postmodernism

>> No.70729172

Athar, man. The "gods" are, ultimately, merely powerful but bounded entities. They are to be placated or bribed, but not worshiped. True Divinity, if such a thing exists, transcends, which your average fantasy gods do not.

>> No.70729252

I don't see anything wrong with playing an atheist in a fantasy world where clerics, avatars and outsiders roam the planet but there should be some ground rules to play it straight.

The character should be a bumpkin who has either never encountered any tangible divinity (something I'd say is more common than people think since fantasy has plenty of isolated communities and real clerics are relatively uncommon) or is aggressively obstinate and delusional and is constantly concocting bs explanations for miracles and creatures. This could be kind of fun to roleplay an eventual revelation with a clever player.

>> No.70729313

>>70729172
This is one element of the 3.0 Immortals Handbook that I liked. Deities are just guys who got in on the ground floor and have more quintessence than mortals and have an interest in maintaining the status quo. True divinity lies with the Overgods, the Eternals and access to the Akashic Record.

>> No.70729445
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70729445

>>70724186
Oh sure, but what have they done lately?

>> No.70729538

>>70729003
>Christians
>Supporting Donald Trump
>traditional values, family, integrity

lolz

>> No.70729580

>>70724186
Why not go with the classic "Why is /tg/ so atheist?" and include a towhoe picture if you are trolling?

>> No.70730174
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70730174

>>70724247
>"Sure they exist, that doesn't make them worthy of my worship while innocents still suffer."
Demon Lords, Archdevils, Great Old Ones, evil/chaotic Archfey, evil/chaotic Primordials and evil/chaotic Gods objectively exist and cause the majority of the suffering in D&D. Gods and their servants, mortal and immortal, strive to combat these existential foes—usually for no implied reward.
>”I don’t want to support beings of quintessential good that are objectively and observably in constant conflict for the benefit of me existing and having a decent afterlife because I’m edgy”

Athiests in D&D are fucking douchebags. I’m glad Athiests get fucked super hard in the afterlife for being pretentious pricks.

>> No.70730234

>>70729538
Nobody is talking about Trump or politics you propaganda-addled zombie. Unplug your asshole from the outrage machine’s cock for one second, god damn

>> No.70730366

>>70724260
Are you from 2008?

>> No.70730454

>>70724186
Read some Discworld you joyless pedant.

What better way to spite the gods than to demand they beat you in logical debate to prove their existence.

>> No.70730486

>>70724186
Atheism doesn't simply mean denying the existence of a god, but can also mean to deny a beings devinity.
So even if he acknowledges that beings who could be classified as "gods" or "god" exist, he rejects their status as a deity

>> No.70730521

>>70730234
>>70729003
Christians don't have values. They have vague rules that they say aren't open to interpretation, then they open them and interpret them differently to suit any argument or situation towards their opinions or assumptions.

They only have family values when convenient. They have no integrity, just stubbornness towards being an asshole or prude over the pettiest things.

Then they make pretentious posts about how everyone who isn't a christian is somehow horrible for arbitrary reasons that don't effect the majority of the group and are only bad according to their current interpretation of their ideology.

>> No.70730547

>>70724186
I mean if hes doing so to take the piss it could be funny.

>> No.70730562

>>70724186
So he wants to play a character equivalent of those religious retards IRL where there objectively is no god, what's the big deal?

>> No.70730599

>>70730521
Based, and dare I say it, anti-Christian pilled.

>> No.70730610

>>70730486
This. Calling something a god gives it something of authority and reverence. Denying its godhood is not respecting their claim or others assumptions of their authority. The gods may be powerful beings, but then they run off and have affairs while disguised as geese and you're supposed to think they're better than humans? Might as well go back to worshiping the sun, but the sun is just one of a trillion stars, what's so special about it? That it's ours? You can give it reverence for that, but you don't have to.

He knows those beings exist, he just doesn't respect them. They're just more powerful but he doesn't respect power.

>>70730547
Also this.
>wizard denies god exists and blasphemes them
>lightning strikes nearby
>wizard is saved due to his knowledge of science and rubber boots
>claims that lightning strikes don't make for a compelling argument and they failed to address his points properly
>tips his pointed hat

>> No.70730677

>>70724186
Look at it this way: How is Joe Schmoe meant to be certain it's a god and not just some archwizard or something? All they really know is that some priests can do magic, and that this means they have vested authority.
This does not contrast much with wizards or druids, who can do magic and say it gives them vested authority.

>> No.70730723

>>70724303
>ONE MORE GOD REJECTED
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbB8mcM_xS8

>> No.70730779

>>70725393
>>70727358
In my game the term for them is 'irreverent'--it literally means 'non-revering; without reverence,' and for me it naturally seemed to carry a slight negative connotation which suits the setting.

>> No.70730809

>>70724186
Well it’s perfectly fine EXCEPT that he should have a hard cap on either wisdom or int. Don’t let him have more than 8 or so. I think it’s wisdom the stat which should be capped. And if he gets any item that rises wis any higher than 10 he can’t roleplay as an atheist.

>> No.70730819

>>70724186
Just run planescape and he can be an Athar.

>> No.70730838
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70730838

>>70724186
To the Wall of the Faithless they go.

>> No.70731000

>>70730610
the sun is a good example, it's existance is undenyable, it's power and effect on the world are real and observable, but that alone does not warrant divinity, mortals may attribute godly traits to it like benevolence or anger, but the fact is that it has no observable agency or sentience at all, we know it is just a fiery ball in space, but by denying it's divinity we'd be considered Blasphemers or Atheists in a Sun-Worshipping society.
Also sort of like it works with Japanese Spirit worship, if you refuse to believe a Stone or River has a Spirit, you'd deny it's divinity, even though the stone and river are obviously real, it doesn't mean you have to accept them as an object of reverance.

>> No.70731026

>>70724260
>I remember the comfy days when christians were the better-than-thee moralizers.
so never?

>> No.70731290

>>70731000
the japanese example is good because it's a "you can take it or leave it" belief that says, "well you can show them reverence because you're just nice and police, and it's not like you're giving them power over you or saying they're some powerful ruler over your will, you're just being respectful." but in that case they're more spirits and not gods. It helps break down the concept that just because there is a god of the river doesn't mean you need to worship them, but it then says that it would be nice of you to do so because rivers are nice.

>> No.70731320

>>70724186
Certain ancient Romans like Julius Caesar's wife Calpurnia were something like modern atheists. Or consider the theology of Crom: gods exist, sure, but so what?

>> No.70731652
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70731652

>>70731320
Or better, consider the theology of Beta Ray Bill.

>> No.70731682
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70731682

>>70724186
>God condemned us to survive by the sweat of our brow and the strength of our back
>Damned if I don't do everything I can to survive.
Make a Nay-Theist

>> No.70731694

>>70731682
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4BukjmuOXg

Underrated character

>> No.70731718

>>70731652
Based.

>> No.70731827

>>70724186
That's okay. He'll have a certain wall to look forward to when he dies.

>> No.70731862

>>70731652
Such a fun character. He deserves more popularity.

>> No.70731888

>>70724247
Maybe he is of the opinion that the beings we call gods in D&D are just really powerful wizards? It's not outside the realm of possibility that such a character would exist in D&D given the bullshit high level wizards can pull.

>> No.70731940
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70731940

>>70724186
I mean, when you boil it down, D&D deities are basically epic level wizards crossed with a megacorp, who give loans to lots and lots of employees.

>> No.70732670

>>70730521
This is called moralizing.
There is a reason it looks exactly the same as the current left wing virtue signalling.

The truth is some people are assholes and want to preach that they are better then everyone else. It always ends up exactly as you described. These are the only people you will likely hear about. All the quiet christians and quiet left wingers dont get heard.

The only reasonable thing to do is not judge people on group identity but instead on their actions.

Which you are currently not doing.

>> No.70733020

>>70724186
"Why are you doing this? What are you hoping to accomplish?"

>> No.70733143
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70733143

>>70724186
gods aren't necessarily objectively apparent to most people, depending on your setting. Consider how "obvious" any deity would be to anyone.

Even a very high level priest - someone who could cast resurrection or other magic that was distinctly more divine in nature than arcane (if a reasonable person could tell the difference instictively) would be a rare visitor to most towns.

Even Toril, the setting for Forgotten Realms and the events of the novels where the gods walked the earth for a while, would be rare enough that "what someone saw happen" would be a mere story in a local tavern.

So let 'em be atheistic. No harm, no foul -- depending on your setting.

>> No.70733148

>>70724186
>My player wants to make his character an anti-vaxxer
>In this world, where vaccines work objectively

>My player wants to make his character a holocaust denier
>In this world, where the holocaust happened objectively

>My player wants to make his character a tarot reader
>In this world, where tarot is bullshit objectively

It's very possible for someone in the DnD universe to go their entire lives without seeing a God, or a cleric, or rolling their eyes at the idea of a cleric performing miracles and saying "I knew a guy with a pointy hat who could make fireballs out of bat shit"

>> No.70733181

>>70730521
Imagine being on such a level of slave morality that ethical inconsistency upsets you.

>> No.70733338
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70733338

So in RIFTS there is a character who's entire ability is basically, "deny the witch". All Bio-E, Magic, Psionics, & Ki abilities are useless in this characters AOE. You can literally walk up to a demon, spit on them, then call them a lying bitch.

Basically, have you considered not playing DnD?

Though thinking about it, playing an Atheist in DnD would be a fresh character concept. . . What makes a god? Is a god really a god, or are they just a really powerful person? So a DnD Atheist CAN still acknowledge that these things call deities exist, but simply does not view such killable beings as gods.

>> No.70733620

>>70733181
Imagine needing to rationalize one's behavior as moral or ethical.

>> No.70733629

>>70733620
You got me.

>> No.70733652
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70733652

>>70724186
We're 90 replies in and no one has posted this yet?

>> No.70733664
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70733664

>>70724186
So one of my best friends I met through this. Met each other through mutual acquaintance. He played an atheist, I played a cleric. I finally summon 3 gods in front of him. He fails a wisdom check and rethinks his life, picking a new god.

That DM was shit though. We bailed ASAP. Good times.

>> No.70733667

>>70724186
Well what’s the setting?
In Eberron he might be actually right considering how Clerics work in that world, and in places like Dragonlance they have that “power of the heart” stuff that allows for healing magic without gods.

>> No.70733684

>>70724260
I've never had an atheist outside of 4chan be a cunt to me about beliefs.
I have, however, had a group of Christians tell me that I was going to hell while I was doing volunteer work for Habitat for Humanity. Came completely out of left field.

>> No.70733709

>>70732670
>The only reasonable thing to do is not judge people on group identity but instead on their actions.
Group identity is a facet of individual identity.
>Which you are currently not doing.
He's judging vocal Christians, which are a subset of Christians.
His stereotype may be inaccurate for the broader group, but it is appropriate to the group he is interested in/interacts with.
When people bitch about the quality of people in a thread do you interject to say some of the lurkers are alright people?

>> No.70733718

>>70724472
>that real communism hasn't been tried.
It’s funny because they’re right and wrong. They are right in that a 100% perfectly fair system of shared labor and distributed profits has never been legitimately tried, but also it never will because exploiting systems for their own personal betterment and trying to get ahead in whatever small ways we can is literally one of the three things the human race has consistently done since ever, right along with procreating and dying.

We evolved from scarcity-based hunter-gatherers who were often at risk of starving, thus acquisition is almost certainly built into us on a genetic level just like every other observable species that fits that classification. The fact that we got smart enough to paradoxically also become stupid enough to think that we’ve outgrown our biological building blocks doesn’t change shit.

>> No.70733740

>>70733684
I know a real fedora tipper, but he's only an atheist for ego reasons. He still believes in souls and free will and objective morality and such he just hated going to church with his mom. I assume people like him are the ones online being euphoric.

>> No.70733780
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70733780

>>70730174
>Demon Lords, Archdevils, Great Old Ones, evil/chaotic Archfey, evil/chaotic Primordials and evil/chaotic Gods objectively exist and cause the majority of the suffering in D&D. Gods and their servants, mortal and immortal, strive to combat these existential foes—usually for no implied reward.

Except they DON'T fight these foes. Good gods are locked into a stalemate with evil gods.

>> No.70733798
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70733798

>>70730174
>I’m glad Athiests get fucked super hard in the afterlife for being pretentious pricks.

The Wall of the Faithless was always an FR thing and it got taken down as of 4e and then 5e.

>> No.70733799

>>70733718
The problem is that communism is both the goal and the method of achieving the goal, so it's proponents can always treat failures to reach that goal as not being examples of the methods. By assuming that success is guaranteed so long as the method is valid, they conversely assume that unsuccessful methods must have been invalid.

>> No.70733869

>>70724186
>have you tried not playing D&D?

>> No.70733911

>>70724186
I don't really see the problem. We have people in the real world who believe in God. Or who believe the earth is flat. Or that dinosaurs never existed. Or that the pope is secretly a lizard person. It's not any less absurd than those things.

>> No.70733924

>>70733338
It's not a fresh idea in d&d, it is so nineties it's got frosted tips. It was a trope subverted so long ago that its a trope. This whole thread has basically been a huge "so?"

>> No.70733963

>>70733799
are you retarded? The problem is because all economic systems break the moment they touch humans and become impure. People will always fuck it up and blur the lines.
It's why real capitalism, real communism, hell, real pastoralism hasn't been tried.

>> No.70733971

>>70733338
>playing an Atheist in DnD would be a fresh character concept
There is literally a class that denies divinity and can even lose class abilities for blaspheming as that would be considered an acknowledgement of divinity. I forget what it's called though.

>> No.70734034

>>70733963
Real pastoralism was tried once pastoralism was invented.

>> No.70734036

>>70724186
Could be fun. He doesn't believe in gods at first, but over the course of the journey he's made a believer and takes a level or two in Paladin or Cleric in service to whatever god gave him faith. It really depends on how he intends to play it. Of course, others will either call him a nonce or shake their heads and sigh but for his character finding faith will be a big deal and if there's another cleric or pally in the party they could contribute to his finding faith.

>> No.70734058
File: 159 KB, 840x623, 1452520543534.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70734058

>>70733963
A system becomes real when its implemented whether humans fuck it up or not. You're actually saying that real X isn't real because its in reality. What the fuck do you think real means? It doesn't mean "lines up perfectly with the idealized version". If it was tried in reality, then that try was the real version, you dumbass.

>> No.70734156

>>70733798
It's also not exactly what the name implies. You don't go to the wall unless you intentionally reject the gods in their entirety, going out of your way to live a life in opposition to objective truth.
Unless you strive against divinity in all its forms, a god will take you. No mortal is too good, evil, disgusting, righteous, vile, or pure. The average farmer is at least moderately connected to half a dozen deities.

>> No.70734187

>>70724186
Just give him an int cap and be done with it. Like, if he WANTS to play a retard you should let him

>> No.70734258

>>70734058
>What do you think real means
When we're talking about "it's not REAL (system)", we're talking about the reality of it not reaching the platonic ideal.

>> No.70734329

>>70733718
>100% perfectly fair system

So is game theory, if people just bothered to be self-centered assholes and only think of themselves.

>exploiting systems for their own personal betterment

Or you're just simply better than someone else at doing something, resulting in you being more successful. Then a government comes along and tells everyone you're more successful because you exploit others and they purge you. Now there's a massive shortage.

>> No.70734389

>>70727519
Either that or have him be an 'athetist' like Loki from Dogma. 'I just like fucking with the clergy, man.'

>> No.70734411

>>70729252

I did this. A bard who hadn't witnessed any divine magic and legitimately thought magic was mostly an illusion. That's until our cleric got more powerful, at which point my non-believing rational man turned full blown believer, accepting his own role in the god's machination.

>> No.70734425

>>70725728
>Do you even know where your food comes from, city boy?
The store, obviously.

>> No.70734438

>>70724186
>Where Gods exist objectively
Objectively to the character or objectively to the player?Sounds like a solid case for "depends on the setting" for the latter imo. For example, can the cleric provide have a good answer to "prove your miracles aren't just wizardry with extra steps?"

If it's the former then maybe you now understand how the areligious feel when believers want to be so in reality, where gods don't exist objectively.

>> No.70734444

I am surprised how long it took for the Athar to be bought up, but on the other hand all these kids should get off my fucking lawn.

>> No.70734505

>>70725803
is that SotDL?

>> No.70734801

>>70733780
And what do you need to be doing to get locked in a stalemate in the first place? FUCKING FIGHTING YOU FUCKING RETARD.

>> No.70734843

>>70724283
This keeps coming up in "fantasy atheism" threads and this is retarded. People IRL who believe in god(s) think they are beings more powerful than the rest, too. I believe bears are beings more powerful than me. I also believe they are fucking bears. Saying aphrodite is a being more powerful than me isn't saying she's not a god. In a setting were gods are a verifiable reality and so is magic, saying "A god is a being more powerful than us" is saying water is wet. And saying "I don't believe they are gods, I believe they are powerful beings" is saying "I don't believe that's the ocean, I think it's a huge body of saltwater connecting continents".

The thing is, just as you can take a boat to the ocean, you can pray to that being and get boons. So gods are gods because what's defined in setting as a "god" is -exactly- what they are. The fact ascension or not being possible is irrelevant to the definition in-setting of gods. And being worth of worship or not also isn't an argument against godhood. Most fantasy settings with many gods have people who worship one or more but very few if any worship all. Someone who worship none isn't as strange when its widely understood elves don't worship the god of humans and humans don't worship the god of elfs. So that human who worships neither is just a guy who didn't pick a football team, but that is not a claim that football isn't real.

>> No.70735051

>>70724186
Yeah? So? The Athar are a thing.

>> No.70735089

>>70724186
A dnd atheist just denies the divinity of the "gods" not their existence.

A sufficiently high level wizard can do anything a god can. So it's not a completely crazy idea.

>> No.70735123

>>70735089
A high level wizard able to grant divine spells is no longer just a wizard.

>> No.70735210

>>70730521
>Christians don't have values. They have vague rules that they say aren't open to interpretation, then they open them and interpret them differently to suit any argument or situation towards their opinions or assumptions.
>t. Gets information about Christian morality from youtube videos

>> No.70735214

>>70735123
so, the moment they get wish they stop being a wizard?

>> No.70735221

>>70735214
Wish can grant permanent powers.

>> No.70735225

>>70735123
Divine casters aren't really granted spells.
They're just unknowing sorcs with a different learned method of control.

>> No.70735238

>>70735123
Still not a God though.
Just an exceptionally powerful person, which is the point.

>> No.70735308
File: 561 KB, 829x263, wall.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70735308

>>70724186
Based and wallpilled

>> No.70735534

>>70724283
>you could become like them if you only knew how.

Which is kind of true in d&d?

Like Pratchett said, you can be an atheist around gods if you're lightning proof.

>> No.70735767

>>70724186
Have Athe, the God of Faithlessness, bless his true servant with unsolicited boons, powers, prophecies and apparitions. Denying Athe's divinity and refusing his gifts will grandly engraced the player to Athe for it's proof of true devotion to the doctrine. Accepting the gifts will also make Athe happy because he's taking on the powers to spread the word. No matter what the player do, Athe is happy. The only thing that will get Athe to ignore him, is if he starts praying to another god.

>> No.70735999

>>70724186
receives no effect from beneficial divine and arcane (magic is provided by a Deity of Magic) spells, healing, protection, buffs and always suffers double negative effect from harmful ones.

>> No.70736601

>>70734843
That's a pretty reductive approach, m8. You are essentially saying gods are JUST super strong beings, when there can be more aspects to divinity. Gods also might have an inherent place in the greater cosmic order, or they can be represent different concepts. For example, the Chistian god isn't just some powerful dude, he is also love, good and truth - as in, he literally IS those things, as if the platonic forms of love, good and truth make up his body.
What I'm saying is, when a fantasy characters proclaims "gods are just powerful beings", he implies that is all they are, while other characters in that world might believe them to be more than just powerful.

>> No.70736626

>>70724260
I hope you are real proud of the satanic panic.

>> No.70736837

>>70724186
Suppose the PC just believes that power is attainable. So 'gods' are only men that have the power.

>> No.70736869 [DELETED] 

>>70724186
>Atheists
>Faggots
>Thots
>Trannies
What is it with recurring Leftist retardation that makes them into such attention whores?

>> No.70737030

>>70736601
In the majority of mythos they really are just that. They're powerful beings with a theme. The idea of an omnipotent, all-powerful god is a pretty Christian idea.

>> No.70737120

>>70724186
Atheism doesn't work in a setting where Gods are provable concepts and have actually done a bunch of different actions. On that front, it makes little to no sense.

On the other hand, if he wants to drop his edgy "NO, ITS AN ATHEIST!!" shpeil, then his character could just.... oh, I dunno, just not worship any gods???
Just because you know something is real doesn't mean you agree with all their doctrines, beliefs, etc. There's multiple pantheons of gods in the DnD setting, he needs to get over himself.

>> No.70737642

>>70737030
I gave the Christian god as an example. Ominpotence was not my point anyway. It's basically the opposite of what my point was.

In any case, we could use examples from other religions. Remember that time someone caputered Thanatos in Greek myth (not quite sure who did it), Ares was cranky for a while because people wouldn't die on the battlefield anymore. Stuff like that has nothing to do with the power of the deity, but rather with their place in the cosmic order.

>> No.70737740

>>70724186
It's not a big deal, most of the time the gods aren't involved in the day to day affairs of adventurers.

>> No.70737813
File: 63 KB, 535x849, barbarian.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70737813

>>70724186
>Who do I worship? What has a god ever done for a warrior such as me? They sit in their private planes of existence while the people of this realm toil and fight for survival day after day, without any shred of help from the gods. Listen well cleric, the gods are not worthy of my worship, and they never will be.

>> No.70737867
File: 363 KB, 1280x720, 1573583798827.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70737867

>>70724283
>>70724385
>>70729172
>>70730486

>he just figured they were beings that were more powerful than everyone else and that you could become like them if you only knew how.

Dozen politheistic societies had mortals becoming god, and it didn't made gods less gods, just showed that mortals can ascend.

All that matters is if they get the job done. It's also much more silly because D&D gods are closer to pagam gods rather than monotheistic gods, so WHY the character has this idea that a God MUST be "all powerful"? Where this reasoning comes from?

>>70734843
>So gods are gods because what's defined in setting as a "god" is -exactly- what they are. The fact ascension or not being possible is irrelevant to the definition in-setting of gods. And being worth of worship or not also isn't an argument against godhood.
On point.


>>70725393
>The gods provide no benefit and take souls for their own greed. They deserve no such reverence"
That's not atheism.


>>70736601
>You are essentially saying gods are JUST super strong beings, when there can be more aspects to divinity

Few religions deviate from that. The NORSE gods (who are a major inspiration for some d&d gods) are not even immortal, they need to eat a magic apples to keep their youth.

>> No.70738250

>>70736869
>a cuckservative arrives

>> No.70738646

>>70733740
That, and I think a lot of deconverted atheists go through a more euphoric phase as a means of dealing with the emotional turmoil caused by realizing you've been lied to for a significant portion of your life about a lot of fundamental things by people who genuinely seem to care about and want the best for you.

>> No.70738737

>>70735123
That's why DCC is great. High level wizards CAN grant spells!

>> No.70738825

>>70738646

Honestly, the healthier approach IMO is something closer to Unitarian Universalism. If you are raised a UU, you spend your sundays as a kid learning about *everyone else's* religion. Being a Unitarian Universalist basically comes down to a message of "Everyone is just trying to find the spiritual message that works for them, and there isn't anything wrong with that if it brings you comfort or it inspires you to be a better person. But don't get too hung up on specific dogma or official interpretations of the word of god that someone else controls, because that makes religion about the organization rather than your own spiritual progress. Really the only way you can fuck this up is if you start going and telling other people what they get to believe, thats just being an asshole."

It basically doesn't have any real dogma at all, just suggestions and a free range approach to feeling fulfilled in life. But if you are raised a UU, its really hard to get invested into a religion hardcore. Religions just sort of become... a lifestyle choice for you, rather than some objective truth you ascribe to.

All of the advantages of Atheism, but without the nihilism and fedora.

>> No.70738833

This idea is a little too player vs. GM to me, but it could be funny: let him do it, but have zero divine magic work on him. Let his euphoria be so great that clerics and paladins can't effect him.

>> No.70738851

>>70734801
But evil gods are completely separate from archfiends, etc.

>> No.70739047

>>70724186
so?
han solo didn't believe in the force even though it was real in the universe, if the gods didn't have any real agency where he lived it's possible

>> No.70739078

>>70724186
You could accept that powerful being exist and call themselves 'gods', but not accept them as real gods.
Maybe not the best example but on MCU movies Captain America personally met a few gods and kept his christian faith. It would be like that but without believing on any god.

>> No.70739185

>>70724186
One of my players is doing the same thing but he's a paladin.

>> No.70739216

>>70739185 what a coincidence im in a game where 1 of my fellow players is using the Heretic Paladin home brew and hes playing it as an auti.. Atheist

>> No.70739284

>>70724186
I know you're trying to bait but somehow all of my players are all uncomfortable with making actively religious characters of any kind

>> No.70740066

>>70724186
First, define god. Strictly speaking, all our world's gods exist too. The word god literally means "that which is invoked". In simpler terms, a god is just a thing that is used as an object in ritual/spiritual rite. If you pray to something, literally speaking, that thing is a god.

By that definition it is trivially easy to prove the undeniable existence of gods. Does this mean atheists can't exist in our world? Obviously not.

This is because the meaning of god is bigger than its literal definition. Atheists have their own standards for what god is or isn't. Personally, I am an atheist in the sense that I do not regard any being, supernatural or otherwise, all powerful or otherwise, as being intrinsically superior to myself or other people, and deny that any being deserves to be worshiped.

I would not change my mind about this if I woke up tomorrow in Golarion, and similarly, there are people in Golarion who would worship their patrons even without evidence substantiating their existence.

To summarize, it's as easy to be an atheist in DnD as it is in our own world, though it is perhaps easier to be a devout theist in DnD.

>>70725320
I play an Athari planeswalker in a high level game. Fuck the powers

>> No.70740190

>>70724186
arguably more interesting than an irl atheist

>> No.70740385

>>70734505
Yes, more specifically a path from Exquisite Agony.

>> No.70741109

>>70724186
>my player is an atheist
>irl
>where god exists objectively

>> No.70741238

>>70724186
That'll make just as much sense as anything else in DnDs garbage setting.

>> No.70741325

>Barbarian is from a small forest tribe whose ancestors were saved long ago by a druid who took the form of a great Wolf
>Said ancestors didnt know it was a Druid, and they worshipped it as a kind of protector
>fast forward a few centuries later and said !Wolf! is worshipped as their deity, a belief the barbarian shares

Is he going to the wall? Or is there a legitimate minor God amongst them now? Would that be enough?

>> No.70741497

>>70724186
Wtf are you talking about?
DnD gods aren't very powerful, as far as gods go. Not omnipotent, and not creator gods, that's for sure. They're major powers, but divine? What does divine mean, anyway?
And you can always reject the gods, let them stay outside your life and your morality. They don't care about you, v you don't about them, everybody's fine.

>> No.70741619

>>70737813
Enjoy Wall of Unbelief

>> No.70743294

>>70741109
Objectivity is subjective. In both the sense of the physical world (relativity is spooky) and the meaning of the word (language is a purely social phenomenon which is incapable of directly mapping concepts to the physical world).
A more useful word to use in our context is 'empirically'. Whether or not god objectively exists in our world, we have no empirical evidence of them but the characters in OP's world do have that empirical evidence.

>> No.70743377

>>70741497
Divinity means you have some special awareness or access to the understructure of reality and all that is perceivable. Mortals are defined by their lack of divinity.

>> No.70744437
File: 8 KB, 227x222, download (1).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
70744437

>mfw am a christ fag rl and decided that I'd swap to an atheist character after playing one game as a catholic and one game as a protestant because we were playing Hunter and Shadowrun
>mfw the fucker GM smugly surprises me with Pathfinder so I end up playing an atheist druid that believes gods are merely a form of advanced man that tricked people into worshipping them
>mfw read the God Delusion and several other babies first guides into atheist thought so I could play my character as well as I could
>mfw GM thinks there's something wrong with me in real life and that i'm losing my religion so he pulled the old "I'm here for you man" pep talk
Dude if I can pretend to be a dwarf that has a mole animal companion I can pretend to not like Jesus for a campaign too

>> No.70744515

>>70731888
Some of the Gods started as really powerful wizards anyway. Divinity is a thing you can obtain. But what makes that different from any other crazy power?

>> No.70746402

>>70732670
>There is a reason it looks exactly the same as the current left wing virtue signalling.
Oof. I know this line is popular on a lot of parts of this site, but that statement is so out of touch it's like you've been in a cave since 2015-16.

>The only reasonable thing to do is not judge people on group identity but instead on their actions.
Oof again. Read the post I was responding to. If that was you who wrote it then you're just as much of a hypocrite as I said. Fucking idiot.

>> No.70746552

>>70735210
>t. Gets information about Christian morality from youtube videos
I come from a family of preachers and missionaries and was raised to go into that shit myself. I know as a solid absolute fact that no matter your denomination of christian, if you call yourself one and post on this site, you're going to hell.

So I don't take any of the moral grandstanding fuckheads from /pol/ here seriously when they claim to be christian and have christian values. Bunch of weak posers, probably don't even go to church except when their mom makes them. Probably haven't even cracked open the bible their grandma got them for christmas that one year and just leave it on the shelf unaware she slipped a $20 in there to check if you even opened it.

Any moron on this site calling themselves a christian on this site is easy to smack down. You don't need to be a fedora tipping atheist from reddit to call em out. They're a hypocrite by where they choose to spend their time. I don't hear you preaching the good news here, only vaguely condescending on people who aren't as enlightened good christian lads as yourself.

>> No.70746575

>>70746552
Based and true Christian-pilled

>> No.70746616

>>70746552
>haven't even cracked open the bible their grandma got them for christmas that one year
I forgot mine in my nightstand drawer and now it has significant water damage from spilling my water in the middle of the night a few times.

>> No.70746684

>>70746616
I've got about 4 from relatives at different times. I tried to accidentally leave them at my mom's in the basement but she kept giving me them back. I tried arguing I only needed one and didn't like the translations of the others, but no they were gifts so I gotta take them. I left them at my brother's and keep one with my old college books on the bookshelf. The most fedora thing I've ever done is that I have it wedged between a book of philosophy 101 and Sarte but that's mostly on accident.

>> No.70746718

>>70746684
Should note I'm not being petty, I just live in an apartment and would rather not clutter up storage space with three copies of the same damn book I can google multiple translations of at any time.

>> No.70747090

>>70724186

If there are theist people IRL where god objectively does not exist, what's wrong with being atheist in a fictional scenario where god objectively exist?

>> No.70747121

>>70724260
Typically people who make a big deal about their belief system, regardless of what it is, are not fun to be around

>> No.70747150

>>70724186
let players make whatever they want, it's their chance to be creative for once

>> No.70747177

>>70747090
Look, I get that you're high on scepticism but what you've said is plain wrong. God cannot be objectively disproved because its existence isn't that kind of question. What it is is something that requires evidence to be believed in, evidence it lacks and causes it to be ignored. That's nothing to do with objectivity, it's a pragmatic dismissal.

>> No.70747179

>>70747090
It's basically the same, that's why they hate it so much.
That kind of refusal of reality is disgusting to look at from the outside, and they don't have enough self awareness to realize it's what they are doing all the time.

>> No.70747185

>>70747177
See, this is what an atheist in a fantasy setting looks like. Fucking disgusting and lacking even a basic understanding of cause, effect, or how finding information works.
"It can't be DISproved!" means it's real to them. And since you can't DISprove that the gods are just wizards, well fuck, they must be just wizards.

>> No.70747200

>>70747177
>its existence isn't that kind of question
Because your god literally does nothing and is a non-being, because you have realized literally every claim you have made about him is incorrect, you massive intellectually dishonest hypocrite.

>> No.70747226

>>70724247
I once played with a guy who constantly had to prove "well the gods are shit" in a generic fantasy game. in addition to classic "if the gods are good then why is there still bad" bullshit, he tried to chew me out for killing opponents when we were going through a classic "hack everything and get the loot at the end" type of adventure.

>> No.70747232

>>70744437
Fuck that smug fucker.

>> No.70747285

>>70747090
There's also the fact that many theists believe because it conforms to the evolutionary quirks of the human mind that lead us to see agency where there is none. Being wilfully atheist in fantasy entails deliberately believing in cessation of existence, not the kind of carrot that attract most to erroneous ideologies.
>>70747185
The problem of high level wizard v gods is a largely semantic one anyway.
>>70747200
I'm an atheist numnuts. The point is you don't objectively prove the question wrong, you point out that it's worded in such a way that it's unfalsifiable. If it's unfalsifiable it's nonsense and nonsense gets ignored, not disproved.

>> No.70747327

>>70747285
>semantic
Another synonym for "theological"

>> No.70747366

>>70747285
I dunno, a lot of people are into buddhism to get off this reincarnation ride and finally get the sweet release of nonexistence.

>> No.70747375

>>70747327
I suppose so, semantic relates to how concepts are pinned down by linguistics and theology is very much about concepts.

>> No.70747385

>>70747366
There's still a carrot in that liberation is possible. The fact that you have to have faith in a cycle to begin with is odd when atheism guarantees oblivion whether you like it or not.

>> No.70747407

>>70747385
Yeah, just pointing at that people will TOTALLY sign up for non-existence based rewards since they get to finally die, hooray.

>> No.70747458

>>70747407
Hadn't considered that, I imagine theism is still a better idea in fantasy. There's bound to be a cult of annihilation that takes after Buddhism, an atheist that doesn't take an active aproach to their nonexistence might be dragged to some apostate limbo after death. See the link.
http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2015/04/void-monks.html

>> No.70747475

>>70747458
I mean, I'd put a lot of work into making sure those fucking grubby gods/superwizards don't get my soul, if I didn't trust they'd treat it good.

>> No.70747510

>>70747475
See that's what everyone picked up on, what you're describing is antitheism (theism with opposition) rather than atheism (denial of the gods' existence). It would be a strange stance but in accordance with observable data, outright denial of gods is what's comparable to flat-eartherism (unless it's more the semantics of god v wizard).

>> No.70747520

>>70747510
you could maintain atheism while performing as I specified if you thought the gods were just strong wizards, and that real gods weren't real.

>> No.70748122

>>70741325
It's possible for somebody that didn't worship a god at all to get past the wall. They just have to find a god willing to vouch for them. If they furthered that god's goals particularly well, the god may very well grant them passage just out of respect and appreciation, even if the heathen never showed any reverence.

In your example, though, I don't think the wolf would count. Forgotten Realms doesn't have gods being conjured out of raw belief, I don't believe, and he certainly wouldn't have his own plane or sub-plane to allow you past. The Wall works by being the DEFAULT condition, and an individual needs to have a god help them pass it. Sometimes the faithful get flung onto the wall if their god doesn't like them back and decides not to help. So if your god doesn't actually exist, you'd need to rely on a real god to actually help you, and if none of them want to then you're fucked.

>> No.70749098

>>70724186
"Atheist" in the context of D&D means about as much as "faith" does, which is basically nothing. Religion in D&D only superficially resembles the real-world phenomenon. The gods are beings that intervene in human affairs all the time. Important mortals talk to them on a fairly regular basis. It turns the concept of a god into a glorified liege lord. It takes away all of the complicated questions that make religion interesting from a storytelling perspective.

>"Brother Anon, my faith is wavering. How could God allow my child to die?"
>"Yes, well... his will can be very difficult for us to comprehend at times, but you must remain faithful the He will deliver you and your family through this tragedy."

>"Brother Anon, my faith is wavering. How could Sarenrae allow my child to die?"
>"She was busy engaging in planar warfare with Rovagug at the time. Get over yourself dude. Go venerate Bolka or something if you don't like it."

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