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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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56025722 No.56025722 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Who wins, /tg/?

>> No.56025730

>>56025722
Herakles. It's not even close.

>> No.56025797

>>56025722

My money's on Herk. They're both warrior-heroes, but big H is legit a demigod.

Also, there's morale to consider. Achilles spends most of his time sulking in his tent. Herc spends most of his time performing the mightiest deeds in history.

>> No.56026251

>>56025722
I'd say it depends on the weapons used.

Herakles is pretty much all brute strength, while Achilles is fleet footed and agile. If they both had spears, id maybe give it to Achilles, but if it came down to raw strength (unarmed, clubs, etc) id definitely give it to Herakles

>> No.56026264

>>56025722
Achilles' main strength is that he can't be harmed by mortal weapons. Neither could the Nymean lion.

Guess what Herakles uses as a coat when its chilly outside?

>> No.56026332

>>56025722
Herakles takes it.

>> No.56026348

>>56025722
Herakles wipes his ass with Achilles' dainty face and doesn't even bother to jot it down on his list of feats.

>> No.56026500

>>56026264
Achilles' main strength was that he was the greatest fighter of all the Argives, able to single-handedly turn the tide of any battle he took part in. He certainly wasn't coasting on his invincibility: he'd be a terrifying warrior even without it.

I think I'd give the win to Achilles, actually. Achilles has both strength and skill, while Herakles is all strength.

>> No.56026505
File: 26 KB, 600x417, Herc.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56026505

>>56025730
>>56025797
>>56026348

>> No.56026561

>>56026500
Herakles won many of his victories with brains and planning. He’s way smarter than many give credit.

>> No.56026634

>>56025722
Heracles:
>Purebred demigod and son of Zeus.
>Later an Olympian.
>Completed 12, believed to be, impossible tasks.
>Led several successful war campaigns.
>Built two giant pillars at the edge of the Mediterranean as a border.
>Became an Argonaut.
>Held up the goddamn sky.
He wins this one handily.

>> No.56026659

>>56026561
Yeah, but he was mostly fighting monsters, not a once-in-a-generation untouchable master warrior.

>> No.56026691

>>56026659
>Untouchable master warrior.
Achilles died by heel.

>> No.56026702

>>56026659
>monsters, not a once-in-a-generation untouchable master warrior
There’s a difference?

>> No.56026711
File: 111 KB, 325x276, 1507645957320.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56026711

Let's make this more interesting, shall we? Let's add Beowulf and Gilgamesh

>> No.56026713

>>56026659
Fighting monsters should give him more cred, if anything. He did kill a monster that was unkillable by iron or bronze by breaking its neck.

>> No.56026792

>>56026634
Not to mention that he sacked Troy way before the Trojan War.

>> No.56026809

>>56026792
Ye boi.

>> No.56026869

>>56026264
>Achilles' main strength is that he can't be harmed by mortal weapons. Neither could the Nymean lion.
That's fan fiction you fucking idiot, if you read the Iliad Achilles isn't actually immortal.

>> No.56026924

>>56026251
Herakles was actually a very tactical man who came up with a lot of plans. His skills with a bow were no joke either. It's no small coincidence that his bow is what brought about Achilles' death either.

>> No.56026994

>>56026924
He didn't even need to be a good bowman anyway. He dipped his arrows in Hydra venom that killed you in seconds.

>> No.56027022

>>56026924
To be fair, a degree of his plans were thought up by others.
Though yes, he was such a good bowman that he impressed Apollo enough to lend him his chariot.

>> No.56027025

>>56026711
Beowulf was impressive, but he died fighting a dragon. The most he's ever dealt with were Grendel and his momma, which pale in comparison to some of the monsters Herk fought. Gilgamesh tag-teamed a natural disaster of a monster (Gugalanna) and best it pretty handily. However, he couldn't conquer death and accepted his mortality, whereas Herk wrestled death and win and later ascended to godhood. Heroes don't get much bigger than Herk unless you look to Hindu legends or some Chinese stuff like Sun Wukong.

>> No.56027037

>>56026869
he was harmed in his only vulnerable spot

>> No.56027048

>>56025722
Herakles. He's simply the greater hero of the two.

>> No.56027062

>>56027037
Again, that boi was a mortal, and died attempting to invade Troy. Heracles conquered Troy by himself for a belt.

>> No.56027144

>>56027025
>However, he couldn't conquer death
Well, he fell asleep, but later on he got that herb that would have granted him immortality. He lost it because of a snake and some of his own stupidity, this is at least the version I know.

>> No.56027233

>>56027025
Was old and used his bare hands to kill said dragon. The original king of the monsters

>> No.56027249

>>56027144
He went to take a bath in a river or pool of water after leaving the underworld and a snake took his immortality herb. He then realized the folly of his actions, accepts his mortality, and goes on to become a better king. He was close to conquering death in a way, but lost it at the very end.

He was an unmatched warrior in his time until Enkidu appeared, and he started maturing after they met. He went through a phase where he thought he was invincible, and he was in a sense, but his companion's death reminded him that there was one frontier he had not yet conquered. He never does, but it teaches him a lesson.

>> No.56027250

>>56026702
Herakles was a PvE build.
Achilles was a PvP build.

>> No.56027273

>>56026691
Yeah, from an arrow aim-assisted by a fucking god, after a lifetime of being utterly unstoppable.

>> No.56027291

>>56027250
>Herakles was a PvE build.
That E better stand for Everything, because he fought dudes too.

>> No.56027309

>>56027273
>Unstoppable.
Virgin Achilles couldn't even conquer a city-state. Chad Heracles conquered several city-states and more.

>> No.56027411

>>56027249
He lost the herb for a stupid reason and in an anticlimactic way is my point.

>> No.56027429

>>56027411
That was kind of the point. He went on this big epic journey to defy death and he fucks up and loses it on his way home in a really silly way. He realizes he was being childish and changes for the better.

>> No.56027524

>>56027037
Achilles in the original myth does not have invincibility except in his heel. The whole heel shit was added much, much later.

>> No.56027542

>>56027524
Then how does he die in this original Illiad?

>> No.56027610

>>56027542
He doesn't.

>> No.56027669

>>56027610
Well that's gay.

>> No.56027719
File: 7.92 MB, 3976x3056, great cleave.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56027719

I think we're missing the real question here:

Hercules, or Samson?

>> No.56027743

>>56027669
The Iliad doesn't cover Achilles death or the conclusion of the Trojan War. However in other myths they say that Achilles was killed by Paris after being shot in the heel by an arrow (severing an artery). It's in the 1st Century AD that the myth of Achilles was invincible except in his heel is written. Achilles in Greek mythology is very-much a vulnerable mortal being. He doesn't get wounded because he's -that- good.

>> No.56027766

>>56027743
Well then Hercules wins handily.

>> No.56027785

>>56027766
Not necessarily. In the Iliad Achilles single-handily wipes out entire formations of men. And fights lesser Gods IIRC.

>> No.56027814

>>56025722
Heracles is just as skilled a warrior as Achilles and much, much, much stronger. It's barely a fight.

>> No.56027829

>>56026659
Achilles got killed in a single shot by a weakling and coward.

>> No.56027855

>>56027025
Beowulf was an old man by then, and he achieved mutual kill. Grendel and mom were no slouches, able to insolently slaughter armed and armored warriors without even being harmed, and he killed them both bare-handed.

I think Beowulf easily beats Achilles but loses to Heracles.

>> No.56027862

>>56025722
Herakles. Achilles is up there, but Herakles is THE fucking hero. This is the guy who casually arm-wrestled Apollo for three days and was winning until Zeus had to stop the match before a mortal embarrassed a god. Meanwhile, Achilles was having trouble with a single wannabe river god.

>> No.56027876

>>56027719
Heracles.

>> No.56027888

>>56027785
>Cuckilles can't even hold up the heavens.
Pathetic.

>> No.56027904

>>56026634
>>Became an Argonaut.
And to clarify on this one, he was a member of the crew for about half a book before the author realised "oh shit if he's around this won't even be a challenge" and had to write him out of the story. It was a little while after he smashed his way through 2-3 trials for the crew solo, and after he casually out-rowed the entire crew (all of whom were heroes in their own right, including two other demigods in the form of Castor and Polydeuces) over a solid day and night, then proceeded to row the entire ship solo for something like the rest of the week.

Top tier Greek hero is Herc, then it's a looong drop to second place.

>> No.56027925

>>56027309
Chad Herakles fathered a city state. Several city states.

>> No.56027927

>>56027888
Cringe

>> No.56027928

>>56026792
This, everyone forgets that Herk literally solo'd a city that took Greek armies years to capture.

He also diverted a river, bench pressed the fucking atmosphere, and had arrows dipped in hydra venom that was so deadly just the vapors would kill people or something absurd.

Herk is legitimately an epic-level character. And while Achilles may be a Level 20 fighter, perhaps the greatest mortal hero since Perseus, Herk is just a caliber all his own

>> No.56027940

>>56027743
He actually sustains a very minor wound fighting Asteropaeus (sp?) in the Iliad, but all it does is seem to make him madder.

>> No.56027962

>>56027927
>Anon can't handle a cuck pun.
Pathetic

>> No.56027964

>>56027542
>>56027610
>>56027669
Basically, the Iliad covers a period of maybe 3-4 days in the last year of the war. It was part of a huge series of epics (we have fragments of them in the form of the Trojan Cycle), so the details of Achilles' death are never clear, beyond that Apollo helped Paris (little twink boy that he was) shoot him full of arrows because Achilles murdered a couple of Apollo's children.

>>56027743
Well, Thetis does mention how she used to feed him ambrosia and shit, so he was less mortal than most mortals. But yeah, he was really just that badass.

>> No.56027969

>>56027719
>Samsons top achievement
>Destroying a temple by shoving over pillars of questionable construction quality

>Hercules' top achievement
>Taking over from Atlas in carrying THE ENTIRE FUCKING FIRMAMENT OF THE SKY

Yeah, Hercules is stronger. By a lot. Samson is basically a big guy 4 u, not the demigod Hercules is.

>> No.56027970

Also I think that Diomedes would honestly be a more viable fight for Herakles, as Diomedes managed to beat Ares up and take his lunch money in the Trojan War. And he's just a mortal.

>> No.56027971

>>56027962
Cringe

>> No.56027988

Traditional game?

>> No.56027994

>>56027971
Btw, my point still stands.
Pretty Boy can't hold shit.

>> No.56028005

>>56027988
Who would win is the most traditional game of all, ever since there were stories there were fags arguing over who was tougher.

>> No.56028011

>>56027994
Cringe

>> No.56028012

>>56026251
>herakles grabs your spear
>breaks it by just closing his fist a bit
Nothing personel lipless fag

>> No.56028016

>>56027970
Diomedes only beat Ares because Athena was helping him. He tries to fight Apollo and Apollo just laughs at him, and when Ares is helping a couple of other Trojans out Athena comes to Diomedes and asks him why he isn't fighting. Diomedes says that Ares is there, and he knows he has no chance against a god. So Athena promises to help him, and she's the one who holds his spear.

>> No.56028038

>>56027970
Is this the same Diomedes that Heracles killed and stole his horses from?

>> No.56028043

>>56028005
Yeah you can rationalize any thread on /tg/ that way. It still belongs in /his/.

>> No.56028045

>>56027970
Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, that even remotely concerns Diomedes in the Iliad is just cringeworthy mary sue bullshit. Like, the Iliad is cool and all, but it devolves into a Sonic fanfic any time Diomedes is even mentioned.

>> No.56028072

>>56028043
>It still belongs on /his/.
>Arguing fictitious mythology.

>> No.56028092

>>56025722
Achilles is barely a step above big Ajax and Hector, Herakles would murder Achilles.

Where would Theseus end up on the scale of Greek mythology power?

>> No.56028095

>>56028012
>implying anyone can handle the spear of Achilles

>> No.56028102

>>56028045
This is because the real life Diomedes was probably a rich motherfucker, possibly invented wine, and was a well-paying patron. There's a reason why there's what, seven cities named after him?

Dude probably wasn't even involved in the actual Trojan Wars.

>> No.56028117

>>56026634
>>Built two giant pillars at the edge of the Mediterranean as a border.
Didn't he make these by punching the huge cliff-ridge thing between them to turn them into mountains?

>> No.56028119

>>56028095
>Implying anyone CAN'T handle the spear of Achilles.

>> No.56028127

>>56028095
Tell that to Agamemnon's whore. Achilles cuckolded him repeatedly

>> No.56028137

>>56028117
Fuck yeah he did

>> No.56028141

>>56027969
The greeks, its worth noting, didnt have a demigod definition like we do.

To them, mortal = dies, and stays dead.
God = doesnt die, or at least doesnt stay dead (See Dionysus).

Herakles was regarded as a mere mortal, albeit an incredible one with an equally amazing gift, and remained so until he was literally made into a god.

In Greek definition, Jesus would be a mere mortal up until he resurrects.

>> No.56028157

>>56028043
>board policing for even less than free
Take a guess where you belong

>> No.56028169

>>56026711
Beowulf gets rekt'd. Germanic mythology (in very general terms) seems to be pretty low-level compared to other eurasian mythologies.

Unlike the other anon I think that Gilgamesh wins over Herk. Gil is not to blame for his story and culture having a "lol you're gonna die" morale.

>> No.56028176

>>56027940
Found the text by the way, if anyone is interested.

http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.21.xxi.html

>Meanwhile the son of Peleus, spear in hand, sprang upon Asteropaeus son of Pelegon to kill him. He was son to the broad river Axius and Periboea eldest daughter of Acessamenus; for the river had lain with her. Asteropaeus stood up out of the water to face him with a spear in either hand, and Xanthus filled him with courage, being angry for the death of the youths whom Achilles was slaying ruthlessly within his waters. When they were close up with one another Achilles was first to speak. "Who and whence are you," said he, "who dare to face me? Woe to the parents whose son stands up against me." And the son of Pelegon answered, "Great son of Peleus, why should you ask my lineage. I am from the fertile land of far Paeonia, captain of the Paeonians, and it is now eleven days that I am at Ilius. I am of the blood of the river Axius- of Axius that is the fairest of all rivers that run. He begot the famed warrior Pelegon, whose son men call me. Let us now fight, Achilles."

>Thus did he defy him, and Achilles raised his spear of Pelian ash. Asteropaeus failed with both his spears, for he could use both hands alike; with the one spear he struck Achilles' shield, but did not pierce it, for the layer of gold, gift of the god, stayed the point; with the other spear he grazed the elbow of Achilles! right arm drawing dark blood, but the spear itself went by him and fixed itself in the ground, foiled of its bloody banquet. Then Achilles, fain to kill him, hurled his spear at Asteropaeus, but failed to hit him and struck the steep bank of the river, driving the spear half its length into the earth.

Incidentally, I think it's the oldest literary example of someone dual-wielding, but I'm not 100% certain of that.

>> No.56028188

>>56028141
>In Greek definition, Jesus would be a mere mortal up until he resurrects.
>t. Heretic
The closest thing the Greeks had to Jesus were things like Zeus turning himself into a white bull, or other such godly transformations. Zeus didn't become mortal because he became a bull.

>> No.56028217

>>56028176
>dual wielding spears
the absolute madman

>> No.56028224

>>56028141
>not knowing about greek hero cults
wew lad

>> No.56028237
File: 10 KB, 200x211, 1476149735294.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56028237

>>56028176
>He was son to the broad river Axius and Periboea eldest daughter of Acessamenus; for the river had lain with her.
>his spear of Pelian ash
> with the one spear he struck Achilles' shield, but did not pierce it, for the layer of gold, gift of the god, stayed the point
These filler sentences/sub-sentences/details are pretty funny. Doubly so when you realize they were only written in to keep the dactylic hexameter consistent.

>> No.56028245

>>56028092
No, Achilles is way above Hector.

Theseus is up there, he's Poseidon's kid, but he's nowhere near Herakles still. For example:

>Herakles completes 12 labours, Theseus 6
>Herakles goes all over the world and beyond, Theseus the little highway from Athens to Troezen
>Herakles does shit like divert a river or hold up the sky, Theseus catches a serial killer and kills a giant snapping turtle
>Herakles hunts and triumphs over the Erymanthian Boar, Theseus loses the Calydonian Boar to Atalanta
>Herakles goes to the Underworld and takes Hades' personal guardian with him, Theseus goes to the Underworld and gets stuck on a chair until Herakles comes back to the Underworld to rescue him
>Herakles impregnates fifty virgins in one night, Theseus barely makes it to five
>Herakles' father is Zeus, Theseus' father is Poseidon
>Herakles founds half the city states of Greece and the Mediterranean in one way or another, Theseus doesn't even found Athens he just inherits it

And so on.

>> No.56028278

>>56028237
I don't get why the Iliad is called a poem. I've read the whole thing multiple times and it flows about as well as drying your hands with sandpaper.

>> No.56028289

>>56028278
I can only imagine it flows better in the original Greek.

>> No.56028295

>>56028278
Have you tried speaking it in Greek, in the necessary hexameter? Some translations do try to ape it, but it's a pretty poor imitation.

>> No.56028301

>>56027927
t. Achiles

>> No.56028314

>>56028278
>I don't get why the Iliad is called a poem.
Like I said: dactylic hexameter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactylic_hexameter

Greek culture at the time was an oral culture, so these stories were told rather than read. In order to make the story both more pleasant and easier to remember, a certain "rhythm" was woven into the story. Hence these weird details appearing out of nowhere: these are "filler" words needed to maintain the rhythm of the story. Every sentence needs a certain number of "long" and "short" syllables.

That's why it's called a poem: this was the standard of poems in many oral cultures. I'm pretty sure the Old Testament works more or less the same way in Hebrew, though I know less about that.

>> No.56028346

Achilles could take Herakles.

Herakles is optimized for monster slaying and labor performing, Achilles is optimized for murderraping anything that isn't named Achilles or has a bow and a foot torture fetish.

>> No.56028377

>>56028346
Herakles is perfectly adept at murdering people too.
He indulges in it a surprising amount, even during the labours.

>> No.56028379

>>56028346
>Ignoring all those times he killed humans.
He actually killed more people than monsters.

>> No.56028380

>>56028095
Patroclus didn't seemed to hold it well enough

>> No.56028399

>>56028314
>I'm pretty sure the Old Testament works more or less the same way in Hebrew, though I know less about that.
Nah, not really. There are certain poems embedded into the text, like the song after the sea splits or the one near the end of Deuteronomy, (or the entire book of Psalms) but the bulk of the text doesn't have any clear meter or syllabic ordering that would be characteristic of poetry in the usual sense of the word.

>> No.56028445

>>56028295
My translation has the hexameter of a freight train. I love the Iliad but I hate reading it because my copy is just so fucking dry. It's like if the memes of Tolkien were real.

>> No.56028462

>>56028346
>or has a bow
You mean that thing he was really good with? He was also a master at wrestling and best humanoids opponents far stronger than Achilles.

>> No.56028506

>>56028346
There's no better archer than Herakles except maybe Apollo

>> No.56028548

>>56028506
Not even 12 rings Odysseus?

>> No.56028603

>>56028548
Stymphalian Birds, anon.

>> No.56028746

>>56027969
I feel like killing a thousand men single-handed with the jaw of an ass meant a little more in terms of fighting cred.

>> No.56028808

>>56028746
Yeah, but I feel like he was kinda giving himself arbitrary handicaps. Hercules could give that dude a little trim off the top and then break his neck if he so wanted to.

>> No.56028830

>>56027719
Samson was much more of a cautionary tale of this superpowered asshat which kept on getting himself into trouble.

>> No.56028859

>>56028808
Oh sure; The power levels aren't really comparable. Samson vs Achilles or Hektor could be a good match, but OP basically asked who would win Superman or Spiderman.

But the pillar thing was like God giving Samson a pity handy to end the relationship.

>> No.56028967

>>56027785
Hercules kills multiple army-defeating monsters and out-wrestles actual gods.

>> No.56028976

>>56028462
Assuming Achilles and Herakles rassled, Herakles would pop Achilles like a zit. I'm operating under the assuming that a) Herakles doesn't know about Achilles' weakness and b) Achilles knows enough about herakles strength to avoid getting any closer than his spear. His invulnerability and preeminence in melee would be more effective that relying on retard strength and arrows.

>>56028379
>>56028377

Achilles was a famous warrior before he went to Troy, then spent a decade slaughtering the Trojans and their allies. He might have the edge on numbers over Herakles.

>> No.56029032

>>56028976
>Hercules is a demigod trained in using a bow.
>His arrows are dipped in Hydra venom that can kill essentially any mortal creature in seconds.
He could range him before any spear bs would start, plus Hercules could just break his twiggy little spear.

>> No.56029052

>>56028346
Humans literally are not a challenge to Hercules. He single-handedly kills entire armies. He NEEDS monsters to even present an interesting task.

>> No.56029090

>ITT

is this Fate but without the cute girls?

either way Herc wins, hes the top dog of greek mythology, at least as heroes go

>> No.56029110

>>56027743
The Illiad does cover Achilles' certainty to die in Troy. He chose it willingly after his buttbuddy die, over living possibly forever, because glory.

>> No.56029111

>>56029032
>hydra venom

Lots of Greek myths and their interpretations make a bunch of mutually exclusive claims. I guess in situation like it depends on whichever is true between Hydra venom killing anything and Achilles's skin being invulnerable.

>> No.56029119

>>56025722
Achilles is a mortal and Herakles is a demigod. There's a pretty clear hierarchy here. Even if Achilles actually beat Herk, the gods would intervene on his behalf or he'd otherwise have to step down. Like when Diomedes could have fought Ares but didn't because it wasn't his place to harm a god.

>> No.56029126

>>56028976
>Herakles doesn't know about Achilles' weakness
Look upthread. The "Achilles is invulnerable everywhere except his heel" is a much later invention and not something borne out in the actual stories about him. >>56028176 posted text from the Iliad of a literally who wounding Achilles on the elbow

>> No.56029129

>>56029110
>the Virgin Achilles
>>rapes temple virgins and assfucks his own cousin

>the Chad Heracles
>>creates entire races of men with his sexual exploits
>>kills some of his families to make it more challenging

>> No.56029138

Achilles was doomed to die at Troy, so he can't possibly die fighting Herc, therefore he wins every time. That was his bargain for glory.

>> No.56029141

>>56029126
Even if we assume it to be true, Heracles is going to figure it out eventually by process of elimination if nothing else. He's not a retard, and he's stronger and faster than Achilles.

>> No.56029181

>>56029119
If this thread shows anything it's that people didn't read the fucking Illiad. Achilles is son of Thetis, a sea nymph, daughter of a god. He has godly blood.

>> No.56029219

>>56029138
Heracles drags him to Troy during the fight, then kills him.

Relying on prophecies always makes you lose.

>> No.56029238

>>56029181
So do half the people in Greek mythology. Aeneas is the son of Aphrodite, which puts him well above the son of some river-nymph, but he's definitely a mortal and one that is a hell of a lot less powerful than Achilles is.

>> No.56029264

>>56029219
He would die with glory, so he can't die in such a shitty way. The best Herc could hope for is what Paris got: A pyrrhic victory.

>> No.56029282

>>56029181
That doesn't actually make him a full Demigod, and Herakles actually is a full God.

>> No.56029284

>>56029238
Achilles also doesn't have any godly auspices helping him out most of the time. The only times I remember gods intervening on his behalf is when Scamander tries to drown him.

>> No.56029289

>>56029238
Achilles is not actually a mortal, anyways. He specifically could only be killed in Troy as it fell. He accepted that death, knowing it in advance, because he wanted the glory more than he wanted to live forever next to his mother.

>> No.56029297

>>56029238
Aphrodite's described in the Iliad as a very weak goddess who is not supposed to have any skills or be anywhere near a fight, because all she's supposed to be is pretty. So Aeneas, as her son, is similarly weak in a fight more or less.

Meanwhile, Achilles is only the son of a jumped-up nymph, yes, but he is is the son of Peleus, one of the most badass mortals, and prophecy stated that Thetis' son would be many times more powerful than his father.

Meanwhile, Herakles is the son of Zeus, king of the gods and lord of Olympus. He's the toppest of the top.

>> No.56029309

>>56029289
Didn't he almost go destroy Troy himself but the gods stopped him because he was gonna break fate?

>> No.56029330

>>56029297
Aphrodite actually gets wounded by a mortal, guided by Athena but still a mortal.

>> No.56029331

>>56029264
>He would die with glory
Nigga, Herc is such a beast that even getting your shit wrecked by him is glorious.

>> No.56029333

>>56029309
Because the glory he was going to get in exchange for his death was killing Hector, not bringing Troy down himself.

>> No.56029348

>>56029330
Yeah, she complains to Zeus about it and he says it's because it isn't her job to be on the battlefield, she's supposed to sit around all day and look pretty and not be an awesome warrior or anything.

>> No.56029365

>>56029289
>He accepted that death, knowing it in advance, because he wanted the glory more than he wanted to live forever next to his mother.

Side question: would you rather live a long and peaceful life, then die quietly and be forgotten? Or would you rather die violently while young, but steeped in so much fame and glory that the story of your life and deeds will live on forever?

>> No.56029371

How come nobody ever talks about Diomedes? He was just below achilles in terms of badassery except he didn't spend half the war boycotting agememnon.

>> No.56029379

>>56029348
The same guy, Diomedes, goes on to wound Ares on the same day though.

>> No.56029404

>>56029284
After he clogged the river with trojan corpses.

>> No.56029450

>>56029365
The glory wouldn't matter to me, what would matter would be the extent of the deeds. I would take going completely unsung if it let me do something I saw as worth my life in exchange.

>> No.56029457

>>56029365
The second one.

>> No.56029480

>>56029264
Its pretty glorious to be killed by the greatest hero ever to live. Especially if Achilles gives Heracles an actual fight. Heracles wouldn't let the one guy who fought him well go down unrecorded. Whole, Greek honour your enemy thing.

>> No.56029521

>>56029371
Diomedes was pretty impressive, both mentally and physically, but ultimately his main achievements are overshadowed by being Athena's boy toy.

>> No.56029577
File: 72 KB, 1200x675, Chain Sumeragi from Kekkai Sensen.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56029577

>>56029521
We really need a SoL anime about a powerful goddess and her mortal househusband, who happens to be one of the finest chefs who ever lived.

>> No.56029578

>>56029379
Athena helps with that one as well, we know that Diomedes doesn't attack Ares at first because Ares is a god and he's a mortal. As soon as Athena leaves and Diomedes runs on in a rampage to attack Apollo, he fails miserably.

>> No.56029589

>>56029264
He dies fighting Heracles, that's glorious by any standard.

>> No.56029606

Not even a contest. The Iliad is at least partially about Achilles' folly in likening himself to the gods while being bound by the inescapable fate of a mortal. Hercules literally becomes a god

>> No.56029772

The Trojan War heroes are canonically lesser than the older heroes. Phoinix explains this several times in the Illiad, and its an overarching theme in Greek thought of how things decline over time.

In fact, a big part of the Trojan War was to get rid of all the shitty demigods amd wannabes running around.

>> No.56029826
File: 104 KB, 736x756, e0ec0e4e87837656ad1cb7fdd64ae7a1--italian-painters-dido.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56029826

Neither, Aeneas the Anus is here and he is super special and he's the last Trojan and also fucked Carthaginian pussy and he was also like Odysseus and can totally fuck over those Greek kiddos.

>> No.56029835

>>56025722
Achilles, because his fate is preordained.

>> No.56029899

>>56029826
Aeneas got beaten by a guy with a rock.

>> No.56029975
File: 168 KB, 730x900, Hector.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56029975

>tfw the best man was defeated by that spoiled brat achilles

>> No.56029990

>>56029835
Relying on preordained fate always gets you fucked over.

>> No.56030116

>>56029975
At least he made it into the Nine Worthies

>> No.56032070
File: 57 KB, 180x203, YOU HAVE CAPTAIN DIOMEDES.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56032070

>>56029826
>Aeneas
>LaughingDiomedes.amphora

>> No.56032173

>>56029521
Diomedes wasn't Athena's lover. She did however have a vested interest in his father and it's heavily insinuated with how much attention he receives that he could be her spawn.

>> No.56032205

>>56029975
>Best man
>Not Ajax

>> No.56032605

OK SO CAN WE AGREE

SON WUKONG > GILGAMESH > HERCULES

REASONING:

LITERALLY A GOD > 3/4 GOD > 1/2 GOD

>> No.56032747

>>56032605
Wukong isn't "really" a god though, he gained divine status first by spending years practicing with a Buddhist master, then by eating Heaven's food and particularly stealing all the peaches of immortality from a banquet for actual gods. If that counts, then you should be counting Hercules as a god too since he became one after dying

>> No.56032787 [DELETED] 

>>56026869
Anon, read the fucking post.
anon didn't say
>achilles is immortal
anon said
> can't be harmed by mortal weapons
Not even close to the same fucking thing.


Herakles drowns/strangles/crushes Achilles FTW

>> No.56032831

>>56032787
That isn't true either though. He gets wounded by a random spear-wielding trojan in the Iliad. That's a Roman embellishment to the tale

>> No.56032846

There's a reason nigh impossible feats are referred to as Herculean. Achilles doesn't have a prayer. An "invulnerable" warrior ultimately slain by a mere mortal would be light-work for the slayer of the Nemean Lion.

>> No.56032850

>>56026869
Anon, read the fucking post.
anon didn't say
>achilles is immortal
anon said
> can't be harmed by mortal weapons
Not even close to the same fucking thing.


Herakles drowns/strangles/crushes Achilles or sticks his hadn down A's throat and rips his heart out his mouth FTW

Or, he could go in through the anus

because Greek Style

>> No.56032874

>>56032787
>can't be harmed by mortal weapons
He literally gets cut on the arm by a trojan and bleeds in the illiad. Hes not immortal, and he can be harmed. He just can't die until his appointed time at the fall of troy.

>> No.56033055
File: 6 KB, 218x231, images.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56033055

>Solved who would marry Helen, preventing Civil War and getting his own wife out of it
>Exposed Achilles when Thetis tried to dress him up as a girl
>Murders Palamedes who tricked him into coming to Troy
>Circumvented the prophecy about landing at Troy by jumping on a shield
>Double teams dozens of Trojans during his night raid with Diomedes
>Murdered the man who forced him to come to Troy
>Stole the Palladium, Troy's holiest relic
>The only man who could keep the Greek army together
>His wife remained loyal for 20 years; murdered everyone who tried to bang her
>Fucked multiple Goddesses and left Athena dripping wet
>Only mortal to hear the Sirens and live
>Regularly described as Godlike
>One of few heroes to get a happy ending
>Romans have to copy your story with an OCDonutsteel


Is Odysseus the ultimate Chad?

>> No.56033221

>>56032205
Ajax isn't the best man and he knows it.

That's why he's too good for this world.

>> No.56034162

>>56026869
that's not fan fiction, that's part of the Epic Cycle you moron

Do you even know where most of our knowledge of Greek myths comes from? The Illiad and the Odyssey are just 2 pieces of a much bigger picture

>> No.56034381

>>56034162
Most of the Epic Cycle is lost and it certainly isn't the source for most our knowledge of greek myth

>> No.56034484

>>56033055
Odysseus didn't get a happy ending. He got killed by his son with Kirké (not Telemachus)

>probably according to ancient greek fanfiction

>> No.56034510

>>56034381
Much of the first parts were conserved in Hesiod's Theogeny, and enough was recovered of the rest for us to know what they're about.

>> No.56034545

>>56034510
Yes, but that's not what the other anon was implying

>> No.56034768

Why does Achilles not get his nigh-invulnerability if Herakles gets his demigod shit?

>> No.56034892
File: 217 KB, 500x500, The_Bride.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56034892

Ok what about Achilles vs pic related?

>> No.56034947

>>56034768
Achilles is a demigod too, Herakles is just a more powerful demigod. Their legends are completely different in tone and scope. You're basically comparing a mid-to-low level D&D character to some fucking Exalted monstrosity to put in fa/tg/uy-friendly terms

>> No.56035093

>>56025797
>big H is legit a demigod
So is Achilles. His mom isn't Zeus but still a goddess

>> No.56035126

>>56034162
No it isn't. The Epic Cycle was written around 1,000 BC. The fan fiction that made Achilles an invincible killing machine was penned/orated in 100 AD. Unless the composers of the Cycle had a time machine and traveled a thousand and a hundred years into the future, it isn't part of it.

>> No.56035182

>>56027025
>whereas Herk wrestled death and win and later ascended to godhood
Unconnected events. And if not for his daddy's decision, he'd die just like the rest

>> No.56035390

>>56028224
Cult implies it's not widespread. Many of those hero cults, like the cult of Iphigenia, were not necessarily mainstream. If anything much of their worship is more in the flavor of Catholic saint admonishing, which blurs the line of worship and remembrance.

>>56028188
You're right, but Zeus also doesnt die as a bull. He cant. Dionysus on the other hand gets rekt and comes back, which is very Jesus-like. Christianity doesnt have a monopoly on rezzes.

>>56028506
Artemis was goddess of the hunt. I'd wager she would be at Apollos level.

>>56029181
This is vital. There are plenty of greek heroes born mortal despite Godly blood. Again, emphasizing that greeks would think the Demigod argument is dumb. It's not like Gohan being half-Saiyan, its more like being born and getting personal favors for all time (since you are one of the few people the gods take a direct interest in).

Helen is almost a perfect example of this:
>godly blood
>is mortal, but with divine-tier beauty
>gets wrapped up in events admittedly beyond her control
>war fought over her
>she just makes up with her husband
>still gets to go to greek paradise

Why? Because she has Zeus blood, and thus gets the Gold Pass for everything and anything for eternity. BUT she is ultimately mortal, and dies as any mortal. Her "power" is that she gets the Gold Pass and is gorgeous. Perseus' power is that he gets high level loot.

>> No.56035494

>>56033055
>spent half the Odyssey crying like a bitch
>can't save his crew from their stupid selves
>tries to murder an ally to take all the glory for himself
>is adament about his wife being faithful while he spends years fucking goddesses acting like he's being raped
I will never understand this man.

>> No.56035530

>>56035494
>is adament about his wife being faithful while he spends years fucking goddesses acting like he's being raped
That's normal mentality for the time

>> No.56035537

>>56035126
>Willing to fight entire Greek army to stop Agamemnon from killing his own daughter
>Routes the entire Trojan army, kills so many people that the blood starts to become more than the water in a river, thus nearly killing a river god
>Easily kills the greatest hero of Troy, Hektor. Like really easily. Like, "Hektor ran for his life like a pussy" easily (Aeneas didn't even have the balls to join the fight)
>Not an unstoppable killing machine

??

>> No.56035553

>>56035537
He was unstoppble. He wasn't invincible

>> No.56035666

>>56035530
So was fucking children in some parts of the world.

>> No.56035705

>>56035666
you cant put our morality on a culture that had no morality outside of honor and shame. They were active slavers. Pirates were higher regarded than merchants.

You know what happened to the children of Troy? (Its actually a fun story)

>> No.56035758

>>56032605
Sun Wu Kong is far beyond the others in power.

>> No.56035990
File: 57 KB, 888x1080, Keep Crom.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56035990

>>56035758

Eh, Sun Wu Kong vs. Herakles seems like an even match up. Place your bets boys!

>> No.56036841

>>56025722

With weapons: Achilles

Without weapons: Heracles

>> No.56036878

>>56033055

>>Only mortal to hear the Sirens and live

That's only because he was descended from the Titans.

>> No.56037073

Consider: it took Achilles and his associated forces ten years to breach the gates of Troy and even then it took Odysseus's trickery.
It took Heracles an afternoon to breach the gates of Troy and ransack the whole damn place.

>> No.56037080

>>56032605
>>56035758
Arjuna and Karna are the strongest myths. Come back when the entire universe is threatened by unleashing your true strength.

>> No.56037207

>>56026251
I think there is a story about some agil fag fighting herk. He got hit 10 times but the sly fast cunt. Then hit him once and he died.

>> No.56037343

>>56037080
Hindu is basically Dragonball Z in mythology format.

>> No.56037508

>>56037080
Hinduism is pure bullshit haxxx powers

Even normalfag Kshatriyas can punch hundreds of War elements to death with their fists

>> No.56037704

>>56037073
>For you, the day you took Troy was the most important day of your life
>For me, it was Tuesday

>> No.56038741
File: 626 KB, 1280x2676, IMG_0580.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56038741

>>56037343
Just DBZ? Because Super is really getting out there.

>> No.56038821

Hercules was a figure of an earlier age, and was to Achilles what Achilles and the Acheaans were to the men of Homer's time. He was a greater figure capable of greater deeds.

>> No.56038837

>>56025722
Herakles, achilles was a great warrior but Herakles was greaces greates hero. That's like asking who would win in a fight between a chapter master and a primarch, both of them are strong, but one is a human and the other one is a demi-god that can destroy whole armys with one hand behind his back

>> No.56038880
File: 1.08 MB, 1280x1024, 14 - Odysseus Concept.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56038880

>>56033055
Don't forget that he also got Akhilleus' divinely forged armour afterwards. That's part of why Ajax went mad after all.

>> No.56039487
File: 28 KB, 325x243, 325px-Aeneas_and_Turnus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56039487

Don't mind me, just the only pagan hero considered holy in Christianity.

>> No.56039701

>>56026711
>2/3 god
>1/2 god
>cool mortal
>shitty mortal
Gilgamesh wins.

>> No.56039868

>>56039701
Herakles got promoted to god and is a member of the Olympians.

>> No.56041291

>>56026659
Except he accomplished tasks that negated hitting things to solve problems.
He didn’t clean out those stables by hand. He used his strength to divert a river so the water would flow through the stables and clean them out for him.
He conned Atlas into getting golden apples for him.
Work smarter, not harder.

>> No.56041331

>>56027928
>he doesn’t lift lmao1sky

>> No.56041468

>>56027719
I need sauce.
Also, I’ve never liked Big Guy Sampson for the same reason that I’ve never liked Big Guy Superman. They didn’t lift to get super strong.

>> No.56041617

>>56037080
Indrajit could take on both Arjuna & Karna.

>> No.56041790
File: 651 KB, 1280x2988, 1508843390113.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56041790

>>56038741
Use the updated version

>> No.56041932

>>56025722
Although both are nigh indestructable, Achilles is more likely to be defeated, because of his bigger weakness.

>> No.56042149

>>56041617
Not if Arjuna has the Pashupatastra

>> No.56042398

>>56029365
While it is ofc mythological, Achilles sure got his glory - we're still talking about him after all this time

>> No.56042761

>>56036841
Only correct answer.

>> No.56042978

>>56027025
>Managed to stay unspoiled on Beowulf until reading this post.
god FUCKING damnit.

>> No.56043010

>>56033055
Odysseus vs Herakles would basically be superman vs batman

>> No.56043113

>>56029111
It was capable of killing anything. There's a scene after Hercules has killed a group of centaurs where one of them picks up his arrow, drops it and it creates a small wound in his leg, killing him instantly.

>> No.56043141

>>56043113
>>56029111
That's how Herakles died - his wife was afraid she'd leave him, so the centaur he killed and who hated his guts told her to dip the shirt in the blood of the hydra, and have him wear it. Herakles was in such agony he ripped off his own flesh, killing himself.

>> No.56043187

>>56043141
>Manages to toss the dude who delivered the shirt into the sea.
>Goes and tears down trees to build a massive funeral pyre for himself on Mount Oeta.
>Burns himself to death willingly.
I think Heracles is a pretty solid case winner.

>> No.56043967

>>56043010
Except Odysseus would be wise enough to avoid a fight with Herakles

>> No.56044001

>>56043967
Odysseus might be clever, but his conduct after blinding Polyphemus demonstrates wisdom is not high on his list of qualities.

>> No.56044020

>>56043967
Yeah, he also just had a shit choice in a ship's crew, since those greedy bastards decided to cut open the sack that held three of the four winds and basically forced them to spend years more going back to Ithaca.

>> No.56044287

Could Superman defeat Herakles?

>> No.56044342

>>56044287
Superman is a mere mortal, no matter how strong he is.
Heracles is literally a god.

>> No.56044371

>>56042149
Indrajit would slaughter him like the entire monkey man race he killed.

>> No.56044490
File: 623 KB, 572x612, 1507130802512.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56044490

>After some time, Omphale freed Heracles and took him as her husband. They travelled to the grove of Dionysus and planned to celebrate the rites of Bacchus at dawn. Hercules slept alone in a bed covered with the clothes of Omphale. The Greek god Pan hoped to have his way with Omphale and crept naked into the bed of Hercules who threw Pan to the floor and laughed.

>> No.56044507

>>56037080
>>56037343
>>56037508

>Take a quick expedition into Google and Wikipedia
>Look up Karna
>Follow links to other deities
>Their fucking weapons
>A thing that can destroy the known multiverse
>A weapon that summons entire mountains to crush the wielders opponents
>Inextinguishable flames
>An unstoppable trident
>Weapons designed to counter other divine weapons
>Heroes who undergo special training to wield said weapons before fighting each other in earth cracking combat

This is some anime-tier power level bullshit if I ever saw it.

>> No.56044538
File: 363 KB, 1145x900, 1418002923477.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56044538

>>56044507
Just in case you get bored of epic level campaigns.

>> No.56044920

>>56044507
When they say Exalted's based on mythology rather than anime, now you know which mythology they mean.

>> No.56046383

>>56044507
Truly the bollywood of mythology. God bless

>> No.56047002

>>56035093

Yeah, but Herc literally has the physical strength of Zeus.

Achilles is the son of a nereid, not really a goddess, and his only super-power is the Stygian invulnerability.

The fight would go something like this:
>Herc and Achilles charge at each other
>Achilles swings sword, Herc grabs it and crumples it into foil, laughs
>Herc stats pounding on Achilles' head with club, fists, no damage, Achilles laughs
>Herc gets mad, flings Achilles into the sun
>Nuclear plasma immolates Achilles' insides through his heel

>> No.56047071
File: 57 KB, 700x503, EddieIzzard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56047071

>>56047002

Unless, that is, Achilles can encase his foot in a fuck-off block of concrete.

>> No.56047161

>>56047071
It's Hercules. You think he'd let something like unbreakable skin stop him?

That'sthe first fucking labour he does. Did he go "Oh, this lion's hide can't be broken, oh dear" and give up? No, he fucking choked that son-of-a-bitch until it died. And then he took one of its claws and cut into its skin so that he would wear the skin as armour.

The result of this matchup would be Herc striding around in a new Achilles-skin posing pouch.

>> No.56047213

All of these Herc-fags are really sad. Clinging to him like he's some type of savior. Heracles is a dick, not a hero, and no one really remembers his except as a crazy strong dude who's story is highly embellished and his feats overstated. Achilles was a leader of men, and involved in the most complicated and largest event in Greek History, that changed their entire society and led to the Classical Age.

Men after him would be inspired by Achilles. Not Hercules. The world would be destined by honour, not strength, and the Romans would respect the Greeks not for their brute primitiveness, but for their elegance and dedication. You simpletons would shame Homer.

Alexander was a descendant of ACHILLES. Leading to the greatest Hellenic age EVER. Heracles was some punk who sired no one great and got overshadowed by his father.

>> No.56047293

which is stronger
>heroes who died
>Herakles
pick one

>> No.56047485

>>56047213
>Dexfags are THIS desperate.

>> No.56047596

>>56047213
Alexander was descended from both. Neoptolemus married Herakles' great granddaughter and bore a son, and Alexander's dynasty the Argeads were founded by a great great grandson of Herakles.

And of course Achilles was a massive cock as well. Being a hero does not make you free of flaws after all.

>> No.56047797
File: 1.45 MB, 1320x695, 21.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56047797

>>56047213
Achilles was the one to sulk for 9 years and then get pissed off that someone wore his dead friend's armor and then violate the social customs of greek war out of spite.
Heracles was the one who wrestled the god of death to revive a man's wife because he was being rude and wanted to apologize.

>Alexander was a descendant of ACHILLES
Because Alexander considered Achilles a reachable goal. You could fancy yourself the second Achilles by reconquering Troy. You can't pretend you're the second Heracles without wrestling some giant monsters or headbutting a god into submission.

>> No.56047883
File: 3.74 MB, 3600x2116, Achilles_Xanthos_Simoeis_Couder_decoration_Louvre_INV3379.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56047883

>>56047213
Reminder that Achilles got reamed by two bitch no-name river spirits while Herc smacked down the god of war himself on two separate occasions

>> No.56048931

>>56028217
>>56028176
It was a double throw. Hero fights always begin with an exchange of spears, then huge rocks, then you actually fight.

>> No.56049003

>>56029826
I hate how badly the gods cockblocked Turnus in that final fight. What a fucking disappointment of a climax.

Mezentius went out like a baller, Turnus died like a bitch after all the hype even though he was supposed to represent the Latin side of the Roman's dual ancestry.

>> No.56049097

>>56047213
>Romans would respect the Greeks not for their brute primitiveness
The Romans had a cult of Hercules

>> No.56049194

>>56047596

Neoptolemus didn't, and that's impossible, and bears no weight.

It is like stating since Aeneas founded Rome, all Romans are descended from Aphrodite. Sure. But if everyone is special, no one is. That is pretty much Greeks' affiliation with Herakles.

Alexander's claim to being a descendant of Heracles is really laughable. There are almost 30(to my readings, 29) generations between Alexander and Heracles. At that point, all of Greece would share just as much genealogical heritage with Heracles as Alexander did. Perhaps even more.

However through his mother Olympia, he had DIRECT descendancy to Achilles, that is not that fantastical and is proscribed to only a very small subset of people.

>> No.56049219

>>56049097
Oh yes the ever-so-populat cult of Hercules. Just as popular as the Cult of Heracles.(Not very).

His popularity is hugely overstated as a God. As a hero? Sure, he has a lot of stories, mostly because almost all of them survived, while most of the tales of other heroes were lost.

>> No.56049309

>>56047797
jesus, literally none of this is true. In fact, this may be the most inaccurate post in this thread

Read the Iliad. He didn't sulk for 9 years, he sulked during the 10th year. It wasn't his dead friends armor, it was HIS armor that his friend wore and died, but I'm sure you don't even know the "friend"s name without google.

>> No.56049551

>>56032173
>muh pure virgin waifu
>spawn
REEEE.mosaic

>> No.56049716

>>56035705
Tell the story

>> No.56050047

>>56049194
You don't think descent from Herakles matters? The Heracleidae founded dynasties, their return was what heralded the coming of the Classical Era.

Any descent from Achilles is going to be as spurious as one from Herakles, if only because Heracles was the generation before Achilles. Some of his sons were Achillies' fellow heroes of the Trojan War.

>> No.56050835

>>56047213
Please.
Think about how you reference them.
“Herculean” and “Achilles heel”.
One used to describe not just strength, but outlandish strength. The other used to describe a crippling weakness.

>> No.56051092

>>56029365
The second one. All day every day.

>> No.56053322

>>56047071

This happened in a Superman comic.

Turned out the invincible Achilles was actually using a force-field projector which was inside the lead boot "protecting his heel."

>> No.56053557
File: 2.17 MB, 2592x3888, ACHILLES-GIF.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56053557

Is it possible the legend of Achilles inmortality naturally evolved from his literal god tier forged armour? Achilles is struck a number of times but his armour protects him fully. If I remember right there is a part a warrior questions avhilles strength. He throws the spear and it breaks against his chest armour.

Ref to OP, Herakles did a lot of cool stuff but Achilles was like the hero killer of troy.
That and he killed

>Hektor
>Memnon
>The Amazon queen
>a crap ton of nameless Trojans

Id like to think Achilles could take Herakles but Herakles was several tiers stronger.

>> No.56053589

>>56053557
the fuck kind of sword is that

>> No.56053803
File: 206 KB, 1376x1969, achilles (1).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56053803

>>56053589
Beats me. Pic related is my fave depiction of Achilles. Though I dont know why all modern media doesnt have Hektor flee in the titanic fight.

After watching the movie first, reading that "fight" in the book, while brilliant was shocking.

>> No.56054009

>>56027719
What are some good Greek/Biblical match-ups? Could Tiresias -who even the gods turned to to settle arguments - outwit Solomon, for instance? Could Odysseus defeat Goliath-era David?

>> No.56054248

>>56047213
>Achilles was a leader of men
Haha, what? Are you retarded?

>elegance and dedication
Are you confusing Achilles with Theseus?

>> No.56054515

>>56053557
>Hektor
Hercules defeated a shapeshifting river god
>Memnon
Hercules defeated a giant who was invincible as long as he touched the ground
>The Amazon queen
Hercules did it first, and that queen was Hyppolyta, which is the important one.
>a crap ton of nameless Trojans
Hercules sacked Troy before, he also fought the spartans, and the army of the guy that had the stables from one of his labors. He also killed two of the most powerful giants in the gigantomacy.

Not only Herc was stronger, but he was also much more skilled.
Achilles would get beaten like a red-headed step-child

>> No.56054593

>>56054515
Hercules was never represented as particularly skilled or smart though. He overcame trials either through brute strength or through plans given to him by other people (particularly Athena).

>> No.56054624

>>56053589
Looks like a fucked up Xiphos. The length looks about right.

As an side, I kinda with more people would depict Achilles in the proper style of Mycenaean armor, instead of drawing him as some fucked up hoplite.

>> No.56054867

Zeus had Herakles, Poseidon had Theseus...did Hades get cucked on not have a badass demi-god son? You'd think Hades would see his brothers and be all like...I need one of those too.

>> No.56054931

>>56054867
Hades was the nice guy of greek mythology.

He had a son with Persephone, who was a proper god, and he had some other god children, maybe, depending on who you ask, but no demi-gods.

>> No.56055024

>>56054931
Disappointing really.

>> No.56055167

>>56049309
The Iliad might as well be fiction boyyo.

>> No.56055255

>>56054593
>Hercules was never represented as particularly skilled or smart though
>given 12 impossible task
>completes all of them in so clever a fashion the hag-bitch teared off her hair in frustration

>> No.56055272

>>56055255
You mean:
>given 12 impossible task
>completes all of them either through brute force or because somebody told him what to do.

Shit, he was straight up helped complete 3 of his tasks, which almost fucked him over.

>> No.56055322

>>56025722
This question strikes me as akin to asking /co/ who would win between Silver Age Superman and Deathstroke.

They're just entirely different types of stories and have vastly different power levels.

>> No.56055388

>>56055272
>brute force
>clever application of brute force
Just accept that Herk wasn't a hugga booga strong dumbo and that he would kick Whinycheles' ass.

>> No.56055415

>>56055388
I mean, yeah he would kick Achilles' ass, because he was much stronger, but he was never portrayed as clever or skilled. All his "clever" ideas came from Athena or someone else who happened to be around.

>> No.56056203

>>56054593
The 5th Labour was entirely "you know let's just be smart about this" and applying his tremendous brute strength in a clever fashion. Far as I can tell nobody gave him that idea, either.

>> No.56056379

>>56056203
While true, the fifth labor is one of the two that didn't count.

If he was meant to be portrayed as a clever hero, he would be able to talk his way out of it no counting, as other Greek heroes renowned for their cleverness often do. Instead, trying to be clever backfired on him for the second time and he never tried again.

>> No.56057476

>>56053803
That game really needed chariots.

That way you could do the chase.

>> No.56057495
File: 99 KB, 467x542, Shanower Achilles.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56057495

>>56054624
Have you ever read Age of Bronze?

>> No.56057535

>>56026711
gilgamesh wins hercules in f/sn so clearly he's better

>> No.56057619

>>56056379
It's been said it didn't count because he was paid for it.

I personally think the end of the Ceryneian Hind's labour shows a certain low cunning.
Making the king come to claim the hind, and letting go at the last moment, freeing the hind but doing it in such a way that he could make it the king's fault for being slow, thus avoiding the dilemma of offending Artemis or breaking his vow to the king.

>> No.56058486
File: 170 KB, 397x296, 1419612711111.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56058486

>>56044001
>Get away with as minimal consequence as he could possibly manage
>"Ey cyclops, fuck you!"
Good shit, best hero

>> No.56058487
File: 951 KB, 1600x1163, väinämöinen.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56058487

>>56025722
But can neither of them beat Väinämöinen ?

>> No.56058690
File: 710 KB, 1400x1195, 5063dc584ae8f3ab2c5b466f03ea4376.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56058690

I find it weird how a lot of people remember Achilles for his amazing combat prowess and immortality but don't know how Achilles himself felt after the whole ordeal.

He wished he had not gone on to become immortalized in legend and instead chosen a life of peace.

>> No.56059287

>>56042149
Indrajit also had that. And the weapons of the other two Trimurti.

>> No.56059585

>>56026251
>Herakles is pretty much all brute strength

Lies, he was well trained in melee and ranged combat skills by a variety of instructors.

>> No.56059606
File: 367 KB, 585x900, legendofluther1-web.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56059606

>>56041468
Luther Strode

Hold on to your butt nigga shit gets crazy

>> No.56060367
File: 12 KB, 224x225, images (1).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56060367

I still prefer Achilles as a character. He is far more based in reality than Hercules and also has a much more humane character.

Plus he was a serious momma's boy which is fun to imagine.

>> No.56060629

>>56026251
>>56025730

Achilles has literally unpierceable skin you mongoloid. They would have their own weapons so Hercules would kill him with his club as it's never implied his bones are unbreakable.

>> No.56060665

>>56026869
Yeah but Hercules was actually a demi-god that could punch through mountains? Fucking retard.

>> No.56060675

>>56058690
Like Odysseus in a later myth, when given like many other souls the chance to reincarnate he alone willingly chose the life of a happy, simple, peaceful man, going to the extent of saying (with a very loose translation) "Fuck you all and your oh so glorious and future lives, I'm so bloody happy I will be able to enjoy some peace and happiness for once."

>> No.56061425

>>56060675
Tiresias' advice about the winnowing oar is such a resonant concept.

>> No.56061451

>>56060367
He had reason to be, for one he actually got an useful boon for a story and not just a worthless upbringing

>> No.56061544
File: 56 KB, 580x374, tmp_27360-irish-Legend-of-Cu-Chulainn127250455.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56061544

>>56043187
Now all I can think of a massive skinless dude tearing down a forest with his bare hands.

Also where does best boy Cu Chullain fit on this tier list?

>> No.56061641

>>56028346
So... The greatest archer in Greek mythology? The guy who beat hydra by literally shooting its hundred heads simultaneously?

>> No.56061886

>>56055024
Not really. He's literally the only kinda nice person in Greek mythology. It's a shame when christiniazed works try to portray him as a villain because lolunderworld = satan.

>> No.56061967

>>56061544
Probably pretty high because the Irish legends generally don't give a shit about rules. Cu would kick his spear at either of them, and it'd pierce their hearts. Unpiercable skin? No no no, you see he kicked a spear at them, so it worked.

>> No.56062220

>>56055024
Why? Demigods are the product of gods picking on and messing with humans.

Hades takes his duties as master of the underworld very seriously, even if he hates it. He doesn't want to be the cause of human life that he will eventually have to deal with later down the line.

Plus, it'd be kind of awkward having to forever imprison your son.

>> No.56062380

>>56047161
>*tucks dick*
>would you fuck me? I'd fuck me

>> No.56063263
File: 184 KB, 728x1000, Thetis_and_Zeus_by_A.Losenko.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56063263

Is Thetis the best mom in greek myth?

>Makes son immortal
>comforts him when saddened in person
>implores Zeus to care for her son and succeeds
>gives him brand new armour by hepheastus
>tried to hide him from the trojan war
>actively is with him from childhood to adulthood

>> No.56063850

>>56054931
Literally the only somewhat evil thing he does is kidnap Persephone, which by Classical Greek standards is tame. He even goes out of the way to treat her well after Zeus judges on their marriage. Hell, she falls in love with him.

Even though its YA fiction, I quite like how the Percy Jackson books portray him. Hes annoyed at his brothers for excluding him, and is very strict over his territory. However, he does everything in his power to keep the no demigod children agreement Zeus, Poseidon and him have, and saves Olympus.

>> No.56064186

>>56054009
>Could a seer whose wisdom even the gods revered outwit a really wise king?
>Could Odysseus defeat a really accurate slinger?
We're dealing with natural vs supernatural tier skills here.

>> No.56064688

>>56064186
Solomon bound demons and is in some stories literally the creator of magic and sorcery. That said you’re right that you can’t really compare biblical heroes to Greek ones. Biblical heroes are usually granted their powers by capital-g God while Greek myths are like 80% pissing matches between various gods. You can’t throw the Judeo-Christian God unto that clusterfuck without raising some serious questions.

>> No.56065081

>>56050835
>one guy had literally just one thing going for him
>the other was so great at everything everyone focuses on the one weakness he had

>> No.56065093

>>56058690
The thing that sticks with me most is what he says to Odyessus in the land of the dead.
That he'd rather be a peasant on Earth than a king in hell.
Not all that much of a different from a peaceful life but it really drives home how much he never asked for this.

>> No.56065133

>>56060629
Read. The. Fucking. Iliad. >>56028176
How

>> No.56065239

>>56047797
>You can't pretend you're the second Heracles without wrestling some giant monsters or headbutting a god into submission.
To be fair, he did try to pretend he was Dionysus with the India conquering, but it never really took.

>>56047883
>all the gods are JoJo posing

>>56058486
Nah, taunting the Cyclops is allowed because he earned it, it's the whole thing of earning glory.

Now, stepping over the line and mocking the father of that cyclops and saying what said father will or will not do. When said father rules the seas. That you need to get home. And are currently sailing on top of. That's the line, and he dived over that shit head first.

>> No.56065382

>>56065081
His "one thing" was being stronger than most the actual gods, to the point that as a MORTAL he was able to change places with Atlas in holding up the heavens. That was before his apotheosis. He was also one of the greatest archers to ever live, and all his arrows were coated in venom that killed any mortal thing instantly

>> No.56065572

>>56027719
Samson from half baked pls?

>> No.56065599

>>56065382
Don't forget the time when he was crossing the desert, and got pissed at the sun for being so bright. He shot an arrow at it.

Apollo was impressed for how ballsy he was, and lent him the chariot of the sun for his journey.

>> No.56065663

If we're ranking mythological heroes, where does Jacob fit?

Wrestled an angel (or even God himself, depending on the version) to exhaustion.

>> No.56065718

>>56065599
Was that before or after he did >>56027862
it seems like he and Apollo clashed a fair bit.

>> No.56066086

>>56027829
Hercules was killed by a woman.

>> No.56066239

>>56039487
>Aeneas
>Not Hector
Haha, no. Only Hector was the worthy soul.

>> No.56066799

Aaaaand we're up and running!

NEW THREAD: >>56066780

>> No.56066842

>>56066799
Oh fug.

Uhhh, wrong thread guys, just ignore this.


Also, Achilles would win, invincibility will do that to you.

>> No.56066924

>>56066842
1: He wasn't invulnerable.
2: Herakles doesn't let little things like invulnerability stop him.

>> No.56067509

>>56060367
That's kinda the point. Each generation of men and therefore humans is closer to the "present".

>> No.56067540

>>56066842
I would like to point out the Nemean Lion was also invulnerable and invincible.

Herakles killed it.

>> No.56067571

>>56050835
An herculean task doesn't need to be one that requires great physical strenght. Just a nearly impossible one.

>> No.56067595

>>56066842
Even granting him the heel invulnerability story which sprung up long after his myth, Herc would easily overpower Achilles and shatter his weapons and basically manhandle the poor lad.
And Herc isn't an idiot and has dealt with invincible foes before. He'd strangle Achilles out, or drown him, or claw at every inch of him until he tears open his heel and pours in some hydra venom.

>> No.56067636

>>56053803
>Though I dont know why all modern media doesnt have Hektor flee in the titanic fight.
Because it would be extremely unclimatic and make Hektor look like a fag, which in turn makes Achilles deed less glorious?

>> No.56067740
File: 29 KB, 680x383, 1507364272472.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
56067740

>>56032070

>> No.56067819

>>56025722
Assuming they're fighting, Achilles. His whole shtick is that he's the greatest warrior. Wrestling or physical feats would be a different matter.

>> No.56068082

>>56061967
He kicked a spear UP THEIR ANUS

>> No.56068176

>>56061967
He murdered an army with a single spear throw. Then later murdered an army with his bare hands while being so angry his eyes were literally falling out of their sockets.

He's high tier, but not Poo-tier

>> No.56070646

>>56029521

You have Captain Diomedes.

>> No.56072925

>>56060629

Actually Achilles having unpierceable skin was only added in in later retellings of the story, originally he's just really badass.

He actually fights a mechanically similar enemy in the form of the trojan river god Scamander, who tries to stop him from killing Hector. Scamander was only a lesser god, but he was a god none the less and was the only opponent who was just plain faster than Achilles, on top of wielding a cane the size of a tree. They fought 3 times and Scamander basically kicked Achilles ass but just couldn't kill him on account of his hate boner letting him will through the blows of a literal god. Eventually (and possibly with the help of one or more gods, depending on the version) He comes up with a plan to defeat Scamander which basically just boils down to pretending to loose his balance at a critical moment and bait Scamander in and then gutting him super hard when he got too close.

Long story short, Achilles manages to put a living god out of commission for the later half of the Trojan war through quick thinking and heroic will power.

>> No.56072997

>>56049219
>>56049097
Why are even arguing? Mars perfectly describes Romans and they try to emulate him. Do note Mars has the agriculture and civilization domains to him, making him a Warrior, a Protector an a god of the Living, while the Greek Ares was just a wargod.

Mars would curbstomp Athena just as Rome curb stomped the Greeks and the Seleucids.

>> No.56073049

>>56067636

He's a normal, if skilled, man fighting a demigod who leaves blood red murder canyons everytime he takes the field. He's allowed to be scared.

Also the whole deal by that point is that it isn't glorious. Achilles is motivated pretty much solely by rage and sorrow at that point, any pretense of being heroic is out the window in the name of cold revenge.

If modern media actually made the focus about the Tragedy of these great heroes rather than just trying to make "epic" fight scenes, it could work.

>> No.56073620

>>56028117
>>56028137
No, he "made" them by pushing Africa and Europe apart and letting the ocean in to create the Mediterranean sea.

>> No.56074667

>>56047213
>Clinging to him like he's some type of savior.
Well, you know all the later stories about Herakles and the Argonauts? He's fucking Superman with the whole Justice League going around on a boat.

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