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53318530 No.53318530 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

I'm developing a !NotGreek fantasy setting. Any advice?

>> No.53318851

>>53318530
That temple was painted in bright garish colors. As were Greek statues.

>> No.53318913

>>53318530
The gods aren't perfect. In fact they're usually petty, ridiculous assholes who will fuck mortals over on a wording issue or just because they were slighted in some way. They also like to give out some really awesome shit to people who earn their favor though.

>> No.53318950

>>53318530
Install the Greasemonkey plugin and the Anti-Adblock killer script and you won't have to disable Adblock while using any of your favorite sites.

>> No.53318953

>>53318530
Pederasts. Pederasts everywhere.

>> No.53319252

>>53318913
Prometheus and Hades were alright.

>> No.53319354

>>53319252
Except when Hades kidnapped a girl because he sperged out from the loneliness

>> No.53320054

>>53318530
Drop either the not or the ! or you will be designing an exactly greek fantasy setting.

>> No.53320088

>>53319354
That's a better reason than any other god that went "lol am honry xd" and was nice enough to let her go see her mum for a few months.

Hades a cool.

>> No.53320103

>>53318530
go watch Hercules the Legendary Journeys

>> No.53320107

Togas

Gay sex

Some dirty old guy rambling about Knowledge

City states warring

If you are a wanderer you expect to be shown hospitality wherever you go.

>> No.53320110
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53320110

>>53318913
Friendly reminder that Best Boy would've beaten Achilles if it wasn't for Athena fucking him over for exactly no reason whatsoever. Nice goddes of "justice" you got there.

Notice that among the Three Worthies of Medieval Europe, the Three Good Pagans include Hector but not Achilles. Really gets your noggin joggin'.

>> No.53320119

>>53320088
He begrudgingly agreed to that because Zeus said he'd fry Hades ass if he didn't let her go every now and then.

>> No.53320143

>>53319252

Prometheus wasn't a god, he was a titan.

>> No.53320163

>>53318851

It's kinda funny how we associate ancient Greece and Rome with the somber and austere because of all the white marble, when in reality they painted everything in clown colors and wrote raunchy graffiti on every wall they could find.

>> No.53320194

>>53318530
All that's been said plus you could talk to a king (of which there were a bunch) without saying your Magesty or your Grace or your Highness.

>> No.53320200
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53320200

>>53320163
Let's not forget that the Romans LOVED festivals, and being the Aedile who organized them was not only a great honor but also a way to kickstart a political career (I think Caesar nearly bankrupted himself during his time as Aedile). Cicero's festivals were described as being very modest and restrained, which was an insult. The Romans loved their celebrations lavish as fuck.

We should get rid of that whitewashed, austere image. Rome is pretty much modern Italy if modern Italy was the world's greatest superpower. They'd still siesta and fiesta between curbstomping barbarians.

>> No.53320316
File: 1.43 MB, 4000x2000, Greek Legendary Monsters Family Tree.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
53320316

>>53318530
>I'm developing a !NotGreek fantasy setting. Any advice?
play up the fact that everyone of importance is more or less related to each other in some manner, so a being that might be considered a horrid monster by one area of the world might be considered the patron god of another region

like to give a good example, Hercules for his 12th Labor had to bring Cerberus, the watchdog of the Underworld to his cousin Eurystheus, in accomplishing this task wrestling either Cerberus into submission, or wrestling his uncle Hades for the right to borrow Cerberus(this depends on which version you read), however it's also worth noting that Cerberus is Hercules 2nd Cousin/1st Cousin Once Removed*, as Gaia was grandmother to both Cerberus and Zeus

*indeed of the monstrous foes Hercules fights over the course of his mortal life, it's easier to list the ones he fought that he wasn't related to in some fashion

>>53320200
>>53320163
as someone with Italian family members I do agree that it's hilarious that people would think of the Romans as somber, even in their moods of anger or sadness they are loud and proud most of the time(you know you've fucked up if you've got an Italian mad at you and they aren't yelling at you)

>> No.53320351

>>53318530
Humans are Athens.
Elves are amazons.
Orcs are spartans.
Dwarves are philosophers.

>> No.53320379

>>53320200
I'm pretty sure the unofficial title of the festivals they had of bacchus were "We drink and fuck and maybe people die".

>> No.53320389

>>53318530

It is not complete unless there is plenty of misogyny. "We hate women so much that we prefer to fuck each other rather than our women".

>> No.53320399

>>53320110
>Nice goddes of "justice" you got there.
She also told Odysseus to kill Hector's young son, though Neoptolemus did the deed. Athena was a genocidal bitch.

>> No.53320409

>>53320351
That's retarded, especially since ancient greeks already have their flavor of dwarves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telchines

>> No.53320415

>>53318530
Include rape, lots of it, and unfair punishments to the victims for that authentic feel.

>> No.53320421

>>53318530
Include everyones magical realm.

>> No.53320468

>>53320409
>muh original race donut steel instead of a well-known staple

oh, fuck you. Nobody cares about your snowflakes.

>> No.53320481
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53320481

>>53318530
"The strong do as the will, and the weak suffer what they must" was meant to be ironic.
Any Athenian that stirs shit is going to get a Spartan sandal up their ass quicker than they can say "muh phoros"

>> No.53320499
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53320499

>>53320468
>>muh original race donut steel instead of a well-known staple
>ancient mythology is original donut steel

>> No.53320537

>>53320499
>well-known fantasy staple, fit in any setting

>versus some herpderp from hurrdurr religion literallynobody cares about

>> No.53320566

>>53319252
Most based god is Hermes.

>>53320088
>Not realizing Zeus is only a prodigious horndog because he needs to produce a child that can save the gods in the Gigantomachy.

Hades still cool, some myths have Persephone ultimately reciprocate.

>> No.53320599

>>53320468
>>53320537
Go to sleep Aussie.

>> No.53320639

>>53320351
>>53320409
>>53320468
>>53320537
Hey, retards.

Humans = Humans
Elves = Nymphs
Dwarves = Telchines
Orcs = Cyclopes

There you go, you have rough analogs from Greek mythology and not Tolkien-injected lazy races.

>> No.53320715

>>53320566
>I kidnapped a woman and locked her up in my basement to fuck whenever I want, but she seems to kinda like me now, so I'm still cool.

>> No.53320776

>>53320194

How would they be addressed?

>> No.53320818

>>53320389
>Weep, you girls. My penis has given you up. Now it penetrates men’s behinds. Goodbye, wondrous femininity!

Graffiti found on a brothel wall in Pompeii.

>> No.53320932

>>53320776
Not an expert, but I always had the impression that they would be addressed just by name, but with a lot of respect and always acknowledge them as your superior. More ellaborate titles smell of roman tradition and, of course, of christianity.

Kings were different back then. I remember Odisseus working his fields; not sure if in the Illiad or a period novel, so take it with a grain of salt.

To wit: w w w dot quora dot com In-ancient-Greece-in-place-of-Sire-or-Your-Grace-how-were-people-of-stature-addressed-Is-there-a-gender-neutral-term

Garbled link, firgive this humble phonefag.

>> No.53320947

>>53318530
Read Homer, Herodotus and Plutarch.
You will learn how the ancient greek think.

>> No.53320962

>this thread
>Roman = Greek
>you should use my meme/middle school knowledge of Greek history
Pls don't inflict this on your players OP

>> No.53320967
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53320967

>>53320639
But how will I get my fix of brown amazones in that system?

>> No.53320986

>>53320967
They wouldn't be brown in the first place, much more likely that they would be paler than the average greek.

>> No.53321003
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53321003

>>53320986
YOU HAD ONE JOB, LIBYA.
YOU HAD ONE. FUCKING. JOB.

>> No.53321064
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53321064

>>53320967
>Ancient Greek setting
>Not having exotic Egyptians, Persians, Nubians, etc.

>> No.53321158

>>53321064
Yeah, that's a must. The mediterranean is to be travelled on.

>> No.53321385
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53321385

>>53318530
So by !NotGreek you mean it won't be Greece, just something looking like it? What system are you using?
I started a small campaign with two other friends, it's some sort of road trip across Greece to gain favor from the god.
I advise you to document yourself a maximum about how religion worked at the time, the political shenanigans, and of course the Pantheon and some of the most interesting mythos to find inspiration, don't hesitate to search for the least known gods and story
>pic related is Silenus, mentor and surrogate father of Dionysus. He is often seen with his satyres servant. In a theatre play, he fuck over Ulysses and his crew by baiting them to Polyphemus lair

>> No.53321468

So what exactly is the association between Dionysus and the underworld? I see it brought up all the time.

>> No.53322041

>Apart from exceptions like Sparta, women in ancient Greece had few legal rights independant of their husbands and fathers. They had separate living quarters in the house, and upper class women wore veils when in public. In Athens, they were not allowed to have legal possessions in their own name.

>If an Athenian woman's father died without male heirs, she had to marry his closest living male relative, which was usually her uncle. If the woman - called an epikleros - was already married but had not given birth to a son, she was legally required to divorce her current husband and marry her relative.

>> No.53322151

>>53321468
He is Osiris, dying and ressurecting god of fertility

>> No.53322618

>>53322041
wow sexist much?

>> No.53322751

>>53322618
>Goes into thread about Greece
>Surprised by sexism

an hero plz

>> No.53322954

>>53318530
Make the city states (the polis) all important to those living in it and independant, with different cultures, like seperate countries nowadays. They were almost always fighting.

Remember only Athens tried democracy, and only the male citizens could vote anyway. And they made a mini 'empire' and took all of the tax money to build a sanctuary with ATHENS IS GREAT all over it.

The gods are all dicks, and the Heroes are related to the gods and are also dicks.

There were three tiers of prostitute, from lowest class and cheap to posh companions to bring to parties and expensive.

Wine was important, as were religious rituals. A sacrifice to the god ended in a massive barbeque for everyone.

There were lots of mystery religions, with odd rituals, and Bacchic worship, with odd dancing, and Sophistry and rhetoric were important.

Doric is best order. Dionysus is best god.

>> No.53323153

>>53320110
It was justice. Hector had chosen to defend his brother who had stolen another man's wife. While he was honorable he was standing in for his shit little brother. Also Achilles was a demigod, whereas Hector was only a man (I'm pretty sure at least it's been awhile since I've read it.)

>> No.53323329

>>53322954
That is not exactly accurate, Athens was far from the only polis with some kind of democratic system.

>> No.53323492

>>53322751
I don't know about Classical Athens as much, but in Rome upper-class women could definitely wield a lot of soft power if they were savvy.
See Terentia, Livia, Servilia, Clodia
I'd guess Athens wouldn't be too different. Or maybe it would be due to it being a democracy as opposed to an oligarchy?

So it's not *all* bad for women. I dare say higher-up priestesses probably have it good too

>> No.53323499

>>53322041
>Athens' patron god is Athena, a goddess of wisdom, justice, and war
>Athens is actually slightly more sexist than the other city states
Fucking Greeks.

>> No.53323635

>>53323499
The Gods operate differently.
In the Iliad, the pecking order is pretty much Male Gods>Female Gods>Male Mortals>Female Mortals.

So while Hera obviously has way more power than a mortal man, Zeus can and does slap her around when she annoys him.

This is of course a massive generalisation, with Athene being a bit of a special case, but it's jist of it

>> No.53323678

>>53323492
Romans were no where near as misogynistic as Greeks, particularly Athenian Greeks. The only city-state that treated their women in a reasonable manner was, of all places, Sparta.

>> No.53323699

>>53323635
>>53323499
Athena is afforded special privilege because she was born of a man, rather than a woman. She also strictly maintains her purity and virtue, and was known to be exceedingly harsh to women blasphemers.

>> No.53324143

>>53323678
Speaking of Spartan women, they were no less badass than their husbands.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/plutarch/moralia/sayings_of_spartan_women*.html
>One woman sent forth her sons, five in number, to war, and, standing in the outskirts of the city, she awaited anxiously the outcome of the battle. And when someone arrived and, in answer to her inquiry, reported that all her sons had met death, she said, "I did not inquire about that, you vile varlet, but how fares our country?" And when he declared that it was victorious, "Then," she said, "I accept gladly also the death of my sons."

>> No.53324219

>>53323678
Our perception of ancient Greece is very much colored by Athenian records.

>> No.53324243

>>53318530
Yeah, olive trees are fucking awesome.

>> No.53324261

The apocalypse happened like 600 years ago, there's still ruins all over the place from ancient civilizations that are kind of precursors.

People forgot how to read then too, so nothing is really known about that time period anymore.

>> No.53324418

>>53320110
That's the point, anon.

Not the "who would win", I've seen translations where Athena only tells Hector to stop running, but I mean who's a better person thing.

Hector WAS a better man than Achilles, he's always shown to be one of the best and most decent people in the story. It's just that it's more of Achilles story and we need a frame of reference for what Achilles should be.

>> No.53324435

>>53318530
Minotaur rape

>> No.53324447

>>53323635
If I was gonna do a mythic Greece campaign I think I'd anthropomorphize the spread of the Olympian pantheon so you quite literally have Zeus & co spreading their influence across Greece and trying to overthrow or incorporate the older, regional gods (who were less patriarchal on the whole). This could be in preparation for a Gigantomachy still-to-happen. not!Crete would be your ruined, ancient empire; not!Macedon your rising minor power; not!Athens, not!Sparta and not!Thebes your major domestic power players. You can have not!India, not!North Africa, not!Persia, not!Illyria/Scythia/Thracia on the fringes. I wouldn't include a Rome analogue because I think that overpowers that it's a Greek setting.

That gives you a lot of disparate groups drawn from across ancient history and both fantastical and mundane levels to play with them on. I think it's pretty critical if you're gonna do a campaign like this you decide how literally and how much you want the gods to be a part of it. I think Robert Graves' take on the Argonauts would be a good guide for how to stay with the theme while reducing the literal divine. I would personally go the other way.

>> No.53324463

>>53324418
>Hector WAS a better man than Achilles
lol

bet you think Turnus was a better man than Aeneas too

>> No.53324687

>>53322618
Complaining about sexism is a modern luxury we can afford ourselves. It may surprise you, but back in the days the Greeks had no iPhones or refrigerators or even a police organ that functioned as well as our own. The father was the despot of the household, required to protect his family against pretty much everything the state couldn't protect him from (A LOT!), and in return had the obedience and subservience of his wife and children [because expecting men to put their lives on the line for nothing, THERE's sexism!].

As for that second part, it's little more than common sense in the Mediterranean cultures of the time (as evidenced by the fact that Deuteronomy had comparable laws for the Jews). If a man dies without sons, he effectively dies without a legal heir. The daughter marrying the closest living relative of the father ensured that the father's legacy remained within the family. Given the collectivist nature of the cultures of the Ancient world as well as the fact that until about 200 years ago marriage wasn't about love but facilitating childrearing and inheritance, this makes perfect sense.

Your problem is that you look at some select ancient customs through modern eyes and make an incredibly modern value judgement: sexism.
>Inb4 "hurr durr you're a moral relativist"
Far from it, but I'm also not a moral absolutist. Nor an idiot who thinks feminism is anything but a luxury of the modern era for that matter.

>> No.53324708

>>53320639
Cyclopses are closer to mythical dwarves than orcs.

>> No.53324741

>>53324463
>>53324418
I've studied both the Aeneid and the Iliad as part of a course a couple of years ago.
Generally, the difference between Achilles vs Hector and Turnus vs Aeneas is more to do with how those cultures saw heroism.

Turnus has obvious intentional parallels to Achilles, he's driven by passion and his own desires (to avenge Patroclus/reclaim Lavinia), whereas Aeneas and Hector are fighting because of their sense of duty to their people.

So from the Roman perspective where one is supposed to give ones all for the greater good an idea that Augustus was pushing really hard, Hector is the better man, so Aeneas is related to and patterned on Hector rather than Achilles.
Achilles and Turnus represent the Homeric view of heroism, which is much more ambiguous and is harder to pin down. More about gaining honour and being remembered or something. It's been a while.

It should also be noted that modern western society and values probably take more from Roman ideas than Greek, which is why Aeneas seems like more of a hero than Achilles

>> No.53324752
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53324752

>>53324687
>Complaining about sexism is a modern luxury we can afford ourselves.
>Treating half the world's population as equals to the other half is a luxury

Now, anyone with half a brain knows one shouldn't apply modern ethics to ancient societies retroactively. It's pointless and just distracts from actually studying the history.

But still, come on.

>> No.53324788

>>53324752
>Treating half the world's population as equals to the other half is a luxury
If they are biologically and demonstrably unequel then yes, treating the unequal as equals IS a luxury.

>Now, anyone with half a brain knows one shouldn't apply modern ethics to ancient societies retroactively
Unless that person believes in objective morality (as opposed to absolute morality). Given the circumstances at the time there was little wrong with this system, and if in THE CURRENT YEAR society were to collapse to the same level as the Ancient Mediterranean then reverting to such a system would not only not be evil, it would be common sense (except the Carthaginians and their human sacrifices, fuck them).

>> No.53324864

>>53324788
There's a difference between acknowledging the mechanical differences between men and women, and having their roles in society adjusted accordingly, and outright saying women are worth less than men and that they should be ashamed of their gender.

A woman takes care of the home and children and is a secondary breadwinner, a man protects the home and is the primary breadwinner. That's all fine. A woman having less legal rights than a man, or functionally being his property? That's significantly less fine, and not necessary even in a literal caveman society.

>> No.53324916

>>53323678

Spartan women weren't exactly powerful anyway. But yeah, they had to be strong mentally and physically to turn those damn literal faggots into fathers.

>it's funny how basically ANYONE was more liberal with women, execpt maybe the Jews

Anyway OP check out Agon. Sadly the game doesn't work all that good but the idea is there

>glory for anything, even PCs vs PCs (it's the only game I know in which the greatest achievement is immortality for your deeds)
>gods giving quests and generally expecting the heroes to do their bidding in any circumstance
>a pretty dreamy landscape so to speak, full of iconic communities and biomes

>> No.53324953

>>53324687
>>53324687
I'm sure this thread is going great places now. This all seems totally besides the point in a game where anyone playing a female character will be exceptional, like Atalanta or the Amazons, anyway.

>> No.53324964

Is it just me, or does Diomedes seem like a fanwank Mary Sue that was added to the Illiad after the fact?

>> No.53324989

>>53324788
This is such a weird mix of "you can't view the ancient world through modern opinions but I can view it through MY modern opinions"
>the Carthiginians were unilaterally (not objectively tho) bad bcos humam sacrifice
>pharmakos? what does that mean

>> No.53324993
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53324993

>>53318530
If pastebin wasn't down, I would send a link full of tips.

Does anyone know what's the issue with it?

>> No.53325004

>>53324964
IT'S FUCKING TRUE

>> No.53325024

>>53324964
Most of his shit is in the non-mainplot books isn't it? If so, he probably is someone's fanfic that got made canon

>> No.53325025

>>53325004
Wait really? I just finished reading the Iliad recently and he really stuck out, but I haven't read into the history of the text itself.

>> No.53325109

>>53318530
People gained power in one of three ways back then.

Way one was bloodline: you were born a god, born the kid of a god and a mortsl, or you were born a monster.
Way two was being cursed: if you were a normal person and you pissed off a god or other powerful being, they sometimes up.and twisted your sorry ass into something else. For example, Medusa wad a beautiful woman once before she had the snakes and the stone gaze.
Way three was just being a kissass so the gods gave you shit.

>> No.53325113

>>53324989
It's only a mix because you want to see it, even though I clearly explained my position: I'm a moral objectivist, but not a moral absolutist. This means that certain deeds that are generally evil can be justified (most simple example: cutting open someone's belly to remove a tumor). This is entirely unrelated to moral relativism, which I attempted to clear myself of before I had accusations of it hurled my way (but as you've demonstrated that helped very little).

>B-But the Greeks did it too sort of
Yes, and? Or are you arguing that I think it's acceptable when the Greeks do it?

>> No.53325116

>>53324741

To be fair Achilles comes straight of the Hellenic Middle Ages. He was... well, if you want to do a good barbarian, here, Achilles is an awesome role model.

>> No.53325133

>>53325113
A lot of the things Greeks did was unacceptable. Including flagrant, and non-utilitarian, sexism.

>> No.53325161

>>53325113
Why are you posting in this thread?

>> No.53325167

>>53324708

It depends. I think it was only Callimachus with the "working with Hephaestus" thing.

>> No.53325192

>>53322751
>>53324687
The joke went over both of your heads

>> No.53325242

>>53318530

No magic distinguished clearly from religion. Aside perhaps from old women being "witches" innamountains.

>> No.53325252

>>53318530
Research the goddamn mythology.
Prepare for the party's first move to be "Where's Mount Olympus and we're now climbing it"
Include multiple cities. Remember, Greece was practically never united, except for when the Persians attacked (include those fuckos, they made a big impact).
Aristotle is awesome, and made awesome things, and technology can be surprisingly advanced at certain points, so don't limit your players creativity. Most ideas were actually built.
Also, brace for Alexander the Great.
And don't you goddamn forget. If there is a female character with high charisma, there is a solid chance Zeus will show up for fun sexy times.
Which can easily become the basis of an entire adventure.

And one final note. Greek mythology hits epic level really quickly. Armies sown from dragon's teeth, fleece which created phenomena of mythic levels, diverting the course of rivers, journeying INTO THE GODDAMN LAND OF THE DEAD. Epic scale is hit reaaaaally quickly. Be prepped for rules on that, and don't even bother holding back players. Anything can and will be accomplished.

>> No.53325255
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53325255

muddle together troy, the sea peoples, atlantis and the bronze age collapse

>> No.53325273

>>53325255
>That guy is wearing the equivalent of a battleship. Both in protection and cost.

Fucking awesome.

>> No.53325306

>>53325273
When you say that, and I am aware their presence is actually at acceptable levels.....but
>pauldrons

>> No.53325318
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53325318

>>53320537
>fit in any setting

>> No.53325363

A thing no one mentioned is colonies.

I think in fantasy setting it might REALLY be interesting, as you could up the ante of the indigenous people basically as much fantastic as you'd like it to be.

>> No.53325398

>>53324964
>>53325004
>>53325024
I am pretty sure its never been proven that the Iliad is a compilation, the general view is that it was put together by a single poet.

Whether he chose to emphasise certain stories or characters from the myths and legends he was working from is another matter.

>> No.53325515

>>53321064
Darker skin tones denote male figures

>> No.53325553

>>53323678
Heh, I remember reading somewhere about how during some kind of festival one of the Athenians is grumpy because Spartan women are walking in short chitons reaching only to their knees. Very colourfully grumpy.

>> No.53325570

>>53324687
I believe he was just making a joke

>> No.53325618

>>53318530
Im Greek, ask me any questions you want.

>> No.53325643

>>53325618
How's the economy.

>> No.53325660

>>53325643
Still boned.

>> No.53325663

>>53325109
Ehh, there are a couple of examples of people who kind of have some power or skill without god's blessings but they all die horribly. Most of the time but the hand of gods.

>> No.53325711

fuck all this boring shit let's talk about the waifu potential

centauresses
satyresses
giantesses
sphinxesses
arachne-sses
harpyesses
gorgonesses
sorceresses
mermaidesses
vampiresses
every landmark or natural object is actually a hot woman and you can fuck her-esses
keresesses
and
the waifu divine personification of a battlecry

even the girls don't miss out with Artemis on the scene
greek mythology is like the OG waifu mythology

>> No.53325721

>>53325252
>Prepare for the party's first move to be "Where's Mount Olympus and we're now climbing it"
Literally fighting gods head on. Kratos style only with more limbs flying everywhere on PC side. Curses too.

>And don't you goddamn forget. If there is a female character with high charisma, there is a solid chance Zeus will show up for fun sexy times.
If she is also a combatant there will a literal line for "sexy fun time". Zeus, other gods, shitton of heroes. They'll want either to put her in place or make big strong children with her. Or both.

>> No.53325780

>>53321003
>hating on superior pale

Your taste disgusts me.

>> No.53325920

>>53325711

But shotacon is the default fetish.

Possibly even for women.

>> No.53326113

>>53325273
That's pretty cool

>> No.53326269

OP here, this is all great advice everyone. Thank you a thousand times over.

>>53320947

I already have, I started this thread to glean some of /tg/'s knowledge.

>>53324435

> Minotaur rape isn't a default in his settings

>>53324447

That's a pretty damned good idea actually.

>>53321385

I appreciate the advice anon, I'm going to be running my campaign in GURPS, my default system.

>>53324993

Pastebin's down? It's been working fine for me.

>>53324916

Thank you anon, I'll be sure to check it out.

>>53325242

That sounds good, but what about Hectate? If there's a godess of magic, surely there's some kind of magic beyond the gods.

>>53325252

Noted.

>>53325618

What can you tell me about the environment that they don't tell tourists?

>> No.53326348

>>53318530
>100+ replies
>no prebuscent boy rape
>no bestiality

You disappoint me /tg/

>> No.53326437

>>53326269
>If there's a godess of magic, surely there's some kind of magic beyond the gods.
How does that follow? She's the *goddess* of magic - lots of the other Greek witches or sorceresses, like Circe or Melinoe or Pasiphae or Medea (Pasiphae's daughter, Pasiphae is also sometimes the sister of Circe) have divine origins, like they are gods or demigods or they have a god in their ancestry - just like the heroes.

Hecate is one of these less patriarchal divinities that probably predates popular Greek religion by the way. Same thing with Kore (Persephone/Demeter) and Rhea/Gaia (probably comes from Crete). Greece went like the Egyptians did where local beliefs became incorporated into a unifying pantheon, and there are cultural shifts associated with that.

If you're interesting in playing it more down to Earth then, Robert Graves was mentioned, and what he does is all these children of Zeus or Poseidon or Ares or whatever are the children of temple prostitutes of that particular god. So culturally they're perceived as having a divine father because their mother was in service to the god when they were conceived.

>> No.53326479

>>53326269
>That sounds good, but what about Hectate? If there's a godess of magic, surely there's some kind of magic beyond the gods.

Well, let's say that it wasn't considered different per se. A little like... I dunno, an example that comes to my mind is shinto, in which rituals are blending into what we would call small-time witchcraft done by normal people. Granted, nowdays it's very minor, but you still find it innacountry in moonland.

The actual difference might have been more on FOREIGN magic.They didn't demonize bablionian practices, but they were different to them (and rightly so).

http://www.ancient.eu/article/926/

>> No.53326501

>>53326348

It's not rape if they're willing anon

>> No.53326506

>>53325663
like who and how?

>> No.53326513

>>53326479
It's interesting how physical those traditions are. You need to have the thing, not just the knowledge (but you can know how to make the thing).

>> No.53326574

>>53326513

Magic's always been very physical and recipe-like (hell, it mostly is nowdays, if you get what wiccans actually do). Shit like ki is not really western, even if you consider it "magic".

>> No.53326674

>>53326574
Just interesting to contrast with how we see magic in a lot of fantasy, including D&D now. There are reagents but they're rarely the physical manifestation of a spell like that is, and in proper Vancian magic the space the spell takes up is mainly inside your head or memory.

>> No.53326692

>>53318530
greek like ancient greek
keep in mind that actuall ancient greek wasn't a unified country, all of them were independent citystates were each of them head their own traditions, cultures, and political systems (most "common" knowledge about ancient greek only counts for Athen anyway, who often pushed their achievements up)
the people of ancient greek still thought that they are one "culture/ethnicity" tough, but this only goes down to, if your first language is greece, you are a greek
they also refered to themselves as hellenics, and panhellenic festivals (like the olympic games) were celebrated to strength the bonds between the citystates (with various degress of success tough)
there were also panhellenic sanctuaries (Delphi, for example)
one last thing, my sister said to me once, that politics and religion was divided in ancient greek,
this is bullshit, cause politics were seen has something, what couldn't have been done without the aid of the gods, and many positions of leadership, were also religious positions

>> No.53326707

>>53326269
Mountains. People forget the fucking mountains. For me, thats where the real beauty of Greece is. I remember visiting an old train station, in the mountains near Pelion, and standing on the small bridge over a valley, with the waterfall behind me and the huge mass of greenery bellow me. It was fucking amazing.
So yea, have some mountain adventures. They were a huge part in history too. The rebels used them as hideouts, during the rebellion against the Ottomans.

>> No.53326802

>>53326674

To be totally fair if you want magic to be something to use as a reaction to a situation like "JESUS CHRIST IT'S AN OTYUGH" you can't realy make it go with rituals, chants, potions, complex diagrams to draw and shit like that.

You can surely do that even if the game is high adventure, mind you, but you will probably not have a wizard archetype that does just that. At very most you could do something like DW's Witch, who can prepare potions camping (but still has magic on the fly to damage opponents).

>it's worth mentioning that even JRRT made Gandalf cast what little he cast on the fly

>> No.53326908

>>53318530
There were also Greek colonies as far as Sicily and modern day Afghanistan.

Incorporating Greco-Buddhism would be cool I think

>> No.53327088

>>53318530
You need a chart detailing which gods are fucking, which gods fucking hate each other, which gods are hatefucking, and which fucking gods are chill.

>> No.53327103

>>53324687
As I recall, the specific law in Athens was down to trying to preserve households and traditions of ancestor veneration and household gods. A household's possessions would normally be split equally between male heirs, but if there was only a female heir her father's male relatives were expected to claim his daughter to produce male heirs who could continue the household and its traditions. He wasn't actually legally obligated to do so, but if he did he got to control all of her father's wealth until his and her sons reached adulthood, so it could be a pretty good deal

>> No.53327362

>>53319354
Except he got permission from her father to marry her before hand

>> No.53327401

>>53327362
So? I'm not saying it's against the ethics of the time, but are you seriously saying that alone makes the action morally okay and not the action of a spergy loser?
>kidnap woman
>oh I asked your dad so it's fine, you live in hell now

>> No.53327630

>>53327401
Firstly Hades was not Hell. Hades was where you went if you were alright but not sucking Zeus dick hard enough to get into Elysium.

Secondly if I were Persephone that was a fucking sweet deal. You could stay on mount Olympus with the rape and murder king of lightning Zeus, evil bitch psycho queen who hates you Hera, petty and spiteful mother and the whole pantheon of demented fuck ups or you can chill in the underworld where you only have Hades to worry about.

Up there Zeus thinks you're a sex toy that can scream an bleed. Down there Hades is only mildly creepy, comparatively, actually values you, enough sunlight to grow pomegranates and all of the bling.

I wouldn't be able to bite that fruit fast enough.

>> No.53327712

>>53327630
>Up there Zeus thinks you're a sex toy that can scream an bleed
m8, you should have stopped while you were only a little bit behind

>> No.53327783

>>53320316
Italians aren't romans.

They're lombards.

>> No.53327862

>>53327783
I want this shitty meme to stop. The Italians are as Lombard as the English are Anglo-Saxon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Italy#Y-DNA_introduced_by_historical_immigration

>Despite the lengthy Goth and Lombard presence in Italy, the I1 haplogroup associated with the Norsemen is present only among 6-7% of mainland Italians,[23] peaking at 11% in the northeast (20% in Udine[24] and 30% in Stelvio[25]) In total a frequency of 5% I1 in Sicily has been detected, 8% in the western part and 2% in the eastern.[26]
Most of Italy's genepool is almost identical to Roman times. In fact, the biggest changing influence was modern mass migration. The retarded Langobard thesis arose when Germans pushed their retarded Germanic master race bullshit and some chumps actually fell for it.

>> No.53327873

>>53326574
If you've delved into western occultism you'll see that people tend to treat physical rituals and esoteric traditions as mostly arbitrary and interchangeable. Wiccans are often treated as a laughingstock, as dumb as it sounds

>> No.53327928

>>53327862
>The Italians are as Lombard as the English are Anglo-Saxon
so incredibly?
>only 11% are Lombard
probably because of the islamic occupation of italy in the middle ages :^)

>> No.53327952

>>53327928
Why must you meme when given a source with citations, anon

>> No.53327972
File: 51 KB, 600x300, Returned-Phalanx-Art-600x300.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
53327972

Use the art from the Theros MtG sets. Make for great setting images.

>> No.53327997

>>53320110
You also have a bit of Roman bias in there. They believed they were the descendants of Troy so they mostly tried to justify the Troy heroes' actions.

>> No.53328033

>>53327997
The Aeneid is fanfiction.

>> No.53328067

>>53318530
Every city-state tells the myths differently, and uses them to talk shit about rivals' patron gods. Look at Magna Graecia (a quest on SV), the guy running it has a bibliography of all the stuff on Greece he used.

>>53320110
Nine Worthies, not three. Three Pagans, three Jews (including Judas "THE HAMMER" Maccabeus), three Christians.

>> No.53328124

>>53320110
Everyone begged Hector not to go against Achilles because he'd get killed. Achilles throughout the whole story is framed as godlike in power and, as he eventually outgrows, temperament, but after the death of Patroclus he is the perfect representation of Greek heroism. Interpretations favoring Hector are posthumous

>> No.53328236

>>53328124
I want to suck Patroklos' questionably aged dick!

>> No.53328491

>>53320200
>Rome is pretty much modern Italy if modern Italy was the world's greatest superpower.
Pretty accurate. No vespas though.

Wait.

Are vespas solely responsible for modern Italy not being a world superpower!? It is pretty hard to invade other countries across mountainous terrain on those little wheels...

>> No.53328545

>>53327952
>Why must you meme
Welcome to tg

>> No.53328613

>>53327630
This post amuses me.

>>53327712
To be fair, Zeus feels that way about prettymuch everybody.

"Power corrupts. Absolute power absolutely turns you into a huge creep."

>> No.53328765
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53328765

>>53328491
>No vespas though.
Tu quod frater?

>> No.53328785

>>53328613
When does Zeus treat members of his family as "sex toys that can scream and bleed"

>> No.53328829

>>53327630
>Suck Zeus' dick hard enough and he'll send you to an all-expenses vacation to Paris
Deepest lore.

>> No.53328891

>>53328491
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespa_150_TAP

>> No.53329006

>>53328785
That's just because the other gods can fight back. Not really Zeus's bag, that.

>>53328891
touche, anon. touche.

>> No.53329108
File: 5.98 MB, 1600x2348, gorgo_amazones_of_lakedaimon_poleis__sparta__by_gambargin-d9giv1j.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
53329108

>>53326269
Nevermind, I fixed it.

>Greek Fantasy Tips and Resources
https://pastebin.com/DtKQ6iQt

>> No.53329579

>>53325113
What in human sacrifice stands out so much that it's objectively evil compared to all the other evil shit which had good justification from those who committed it?

It fucking looks so arbitrary and reeks of "Greeks and Jews told us it's bad so it is!". What's your criteria, utilitarism?

>> No.53329733

>>53329108
Not OP but this is helpful. Thank you.

>> No.53329801

>>53329579
Couple possibilities come to mind.
Cultures that regularly did human sacrifices tended to be raiding cultures.
Culturally sacrifices were actually food so human sacrifice was implied cannibalism.

>> No.53329808

>>53329108
Thanks a lot.

>> No.53329841

>>53329801
>Cultures that regularly did human sacrifices tended to be raiding cultures.
>Carthage and Athens

>> No.53330050

>>53329801
>Culturally sacrifices were actually food so human sacrifice was implied cannibalism.
Does that stem from the alleged Minoan ritual cannibalism? Because it hasn't been proven beyond reasonable doubt to be the case, there is still debate on that.
I'm of impression that it was ritualistic repayment to the Bull-God for eating his young - with their own youth.

>> No.53331424

Bump

>> No.53331660

>>53329841
Regularly committed human sacrifice rather than committed human sacrifice during times of disaster.

The only reference I could find to Athens committing human sacrifice was after the Persians burned Athens.

>>53330050
I see it more the allegations came from the ideas of what happened during a ritual sacrifice. Sacrifice a goat = goat meat for supper. Sacrifice a calf = veal lunch. Get that idea ingrained in a culture and it is not a large leap for human sacrifice to equal long pork breakfast.

Minoans might have been doing human sacrifices without eating the sacrifice, but for the Greeks ritual sacrifice meant eating the sacrifice so it grossed them out.

>> No.53334833

>>53331424

>> No.53335272
File: 56 KB, 727x960, 17458232_10210911473815708_8429042000816842379_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
53335272

>>53334833 too.

>> No.53337330
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53337330

Art bump.

>> No.53338860

>>53337330

>> No.53338911

>>53320143
Prometheus wasn't an Olympian.

Declaring the Titans to not be gods is a bit ridiculous.

>> No.53340319
File: 427 KB, 913x768, ancient_greek_dialects.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
53340319

Okay, combining >>53320639 and >>53329108 For a 5e type thing:

Humans - Humans
Typical humans, they dwell pretty much everywhere.

Dragonborn - Spartoi
The Spartoi dwell in Boetica, which their ancestors were sewn in, created by their ancestor Cadmus from the sewn teeth of a dragon. No connection to the people of Sparta.

Elves - Nymphs
Divided into great kindreds, including the Dryads (Wood Elves) who live in Arcadia with the centaurs and satyrs, Oreads (High Elves) who have small kingdoms in the mountains, the Lampads (Drow) who followed Hecate down into the underworld.

Minotaurs - Minotaurs
Come from Crete, being the divine descendants of the Cretan Bull and thus Poseidon. They are a proud seafaring people.

Thri-Kreen - Myrmidons
Insect men who dwell in Thessaly. Their martial nature makes them popular mercenaries.

>> No.53340504

>>53323499
In ancient greece, being sexist and being wise are one and the same. Women can be sexist.

>> No.53340960

>>53318530
Dyonisus's aesthetics are pretty rad.
He's the only foreigner of the pantheon, the only god born of a mortal mother that basically sneaked his way into Olympus and of course the god that piss off Hera the most. He is womanly, half-womanish, a trap and basically, Slaanesh without satanism.
Remember, his followers are made up of constantly drunk "wild women" and erect satyrs that rape everything on sight. Did I mention they offer blood sacrifices to the dead because he's a weird divine communicant between Earth and Hades too? And he represents everything which escapes human reason and can only be attributed to the action of the DM.

>> No.53341367

>>53340960
He is also the god of rebirth. You could have the players killing him without any real consequences.

>> No.53341405

>>53340319
I actually don't hate this, it kinda works.

>> No.53342269
File: 272 KB, 706x1076, scan0580_by_residentsmooth-d7lv5m0.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
53342269

>>53341405
Thanks, that's pretty damn good praise.


Thinking about it, if I were to include Dwarves, I'd probably make them the Sinties of the northeastern Isles of Lemnos, Samothrace, and Imbros. They were said to have raised Hephaestus, and certainly worshipped him.

Which would make the dwarves a piratical culture, who dress like Thracians, live on volcanic islands, and probably count as Hill Dwarves mechanically.

>> No.53342424

>>53342269
Dwarves definitely don't gel with what you think of as like Samothrace though. What about the Balearic Islands?

>> No.53342497

>>53318530

Just keep in mind that the faggotry meme is massively overplayed by 21st century audiences attempting to compel an extinct society to reflect, and therefore justify, their own values.

As much as they were the fathers of Western Civilization, their values were largely alien and real classical Hellenic society would both horrify and be horrified by contemporary Western Civilization.

>> No.53342576

>>53342497
>not!Greek fantasy setting
>MAKE SURE YOU REMEMBER THERE WEREN'T NO DERN HOMOSEXUALS IN THERE NO MATTER WHAT XENOPHON OR SAPPHO OR THE THEBANS SAID
Real example: my first exposure to homosexuality in ancient Greece was reading the Anabasis, where one of the Greek soldiers takes up with a pretty young man in a later chapter. But I'm sure you're right, and folks writing about Greek homosexuality in the late 19th and early 20th century, famously tolerant of the gays themselves, were only trying to justify their own tolerance.

>> No.53342660

>>53342424
Those are a little far west I would have thought.

And I'd of thought Samothrace would work nicely for the dwarves, what with being extremely rugged, with high mountains, and dotted with Cyclopean ruins.

>> No.53342729

>>53342660
I just find it hard to imagine the Samothracian mysteries as associated with dwarves.

>> No.53342745

>>53342729
Good point. Maybe just limit it to the other two isles then.

The ones that directly worshipped Hephaestus.

>> No.53342871

>>53340319
How can you write fantasy races for a greek setting and NOT include centaurs though?
Not to mention cyclops, automatons (iron men created by hephaistos), acephalis, atlantians (which make better elves than nymphs imo), pygmies (halflings maybe?), these dracaenae things...
I think nymphs should be feys. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see the connection between thri-keen and greek culture tho.

>> No.53342988

>>53342871
Not even that anon but
>Divided into great kindreds, including the Dryads (Wood Elves) who live in Arcadia with the centaurs and satyrs,
>centaurs and satyrs

And Myrmidons were originally ants turned into soldiers by Zeus.

>> No.53343076

>>53342871
Well, I was more thinking of what races I had available. Thri-kreen I'd already seen done for 5e as a PC race (thanks to Dark Sun) and they were just for the insectoid nature of the myrmidons.

Centaurs, Satyrs, and Cyclopses would be good choices for full races.

Iron Men, I'm not sure if they'd be suitable for PCs.

Drakaina... well, it depends on how to portray them. Sometimes they're just female dragons, others they're serpent-like beings with the heads of women (making Naga perfect for them)

An alternative would be to use the Drakaina for the basis of a Greek version of the Yuan-Ti. Children of Echidna/Delphyne/Python, they used to rule over Delphi and surrounding lands until their empire and mother were destroyed by Apollo.

>> No.53343682

>>53343076
>Iron Men, I'm not sure if they'd be suitable for PCs.
Just use Warforged stats for them

>> No.53343702

>>53318950

Underrated post

>> No.53343738

>>53343682
That would work, I was just wondering if they'd be better as monsters.

>> No.53344102
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53344102

>>53324964
Diomedes is cute
CUTE

>> No.53344749

>>53325398
People aren't discussing if Homer's Iliad is cobbled together by multiple poets or the like. The Iliad only covers a very small portion of the Trojan War. A lot of important events are not contained within it.

>> No.53345530

>>53342576
Not that anon, but he's *kinda* right, at least this part
>their values were largely alien and real classical Hellenic society would both horrify and be horrified by contemporary Western Civilization.

Though I think horrify might be a strong word, but they'd probably find the idea of two guys getting married to each other weird. I mean, how are they supposed to carry on their families if they don't have a wife to ignore while they bum?

>> No.53345585

>>53326269

Read the 2e legends and lore book, i gives interesting ideas for how to deal with the diferent gods mechanically speaking.

>> No.53345613

Transpose all the architecture to an Amazon setting with pirates

>> No.53345630

>>53342871
Thinking about this, I tried mocking up an example Nymph race for 5e. How does it look mechanically?

Nymph Traits

Ability Score Increase. Your Charisma score increases by 2.
Age. As beings of nature, Nymphs do not age in the same way as mortals. They may be haggard and youthful, or comely but ancient.
Alignment. Nymphs are indifferent towards alignment. They tend towards neutrality.
Size. Your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
Bound Fey. Although you are a fey, your connection to the Material Plane's landscape makes you count as a humanoid for the purposes of being banished or dismissed.
Speak with Small Beasts. Through sounds and gestures, you can communicate simple ideas with Small or smaller beasts.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common, Sylvan, and Elvish.
Subrace. There are three common subraces of nymph: Dryad, Naiad, and Oread. Choose one of these subraces.
[cont]

>> No.53345643

>>53345630
And time for subraces:

Dryad
Ability Score Increase. Your Wisdom score increases by 1.
Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
Forest Magic. You know the druidcraft cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the entangle spell. When you reach 5th level, you can also cast the barkskin spell. Once you have cast a spell using this trait, you can't cast it again until you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.


Naiad
Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 1.
Amphibious. You can breath air and water.
Waterborn. You have a 30 ft swim speed.
River Magic. You know the shape water cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the create or destroy water spell. When you reach 5th level, you can also cast the invisibility spell. Once you have cast a spell using this trait, you can't cast it again until you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

Oread
Ability Score Increase. Your Constitution score increases by 1.
Mountain Born. You're acclimated to high altitude, including elevations above 20,000 feet. You're also naturally adapted to cold climates, as described in chapter 5 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.
Sure footed. You have a 30 ft climb speed.
Mountain Magic. You know the resistance cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the longstrider spell. When you reach 5th level, you can also cast the pass without trace spell. Once you have cast a spell using this trait, you can't cast it again until you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

>> No.53345715

>>53345630
>>53345643
It seems solid enough. Would be interested in your take on some of the more unusual of the (huge number of) nymph types, like Asteriae, Anthousai, Nephele, Kabeirides, Themeides, Lampades, etc, etc. Nymph society would be interesting to tackle as a full culture too.

>> No.53346124

>>53340319
Nice. I think a Greek inspired setting would work better than the constantly rechewed Nordic bullshit that only is so popular because anything that isn't ripping off Tolkien is heresy.

A Greek setting is great. No "Human-elf-dwarf" bullshit, humans are the default race end of story. There are human lands with city states and competing kingdoms and republics, and beyond that a wide open world. To the North barbarians and strange tales from mystic lands. And across the endless sea? Innumerable islands inhabited by weird and strange creatures. The gods are everywhere, as are savage monsters like centaurs. Olympus and the afterlife are places you could physically walk into if you tried hard enough.

It's so damned interesting, and it's ignored because the same sloppy copies of Tolkien keep popping up again and again.

>> No.53347543
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53347543

>>53342269
>>53342424
>>53342729

>>53329108 here. If dwarves are a must, I would put them right in Greece. It is peppered with mountains. Have them mine lead for tablet curses, silver, gold, copper and tin.

If you prefer an island with cyclopean features, I sugest Sardinia and its nuraghes.

>>53343076
>Drakaina
I sugest snakewomen with some draconic traces, like say, wings.

>>53343738
They are as good for monsters as drakaina. It's all really arbitrary, go with what seems to fit.

>> No.53347738

>>53346124
Humans only is a great option, but I can also see the place for nonhumans. Centaurs, Satyrs and such did have important roles to play in the myths.

>>53345715
Thank you.

As for the other nymphs, some may be more akin to classes for the nymphs. The muses as heroic nymph bards, the Maenads as nymph barbarians, the Themeides as nymph wizards or other scholars.

The same could be the case for some of the other nymphs. Some of the Atlantidae are Oreads or Dryads. Likewise the Lampads could also be warlocks or clerics of Hecate.

However, to make them alternate options for the race...

Lampad
>Underworld nymphs, a gift from Zeus to Hecate for betraying her kin. They're shadowy beings, who bring madness and fear to mortals.
Ability Score Increase. Your Intelligence score increases by 1.
Superior Darkvision. Your darkvision has a radius of 120 feet.
Chthonian Wanderers. You can read, write, and speak Undercommon.
Underworld Magic. You know the dancing lights cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the cause fear spell. When you reach 5th level, you can also cast the crown of madness spell. Once you have cast a spell using this trait, you can't cast it again until you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

Atlantides
>Nymphs of the heavens, rarely descend to the mortal realm. Children of mighty Atlas, the Atlantidae are Haughty, and for good reason. Many of the great heroes are descended from amongst their number.
Ability Score Increase. Your Wisdom score increases by 1.
Celestial-Kin. You can read, write and speak Celestial.
Star Born. You have resistance to radiance damage.
Star Magic. You know the sacred flame cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the faerie fire spell. When you reach 5th level, you can also cast the continual flame spell. Once you have cast a spell using this trait, you can't cast it again until you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

>> No.53347768

>>53347543
These are all great points.

Thinking about it, with the great array of Greek beings, it'd probably be far better to stick with them, rather than just ramming in generic fantasy stuff.

I'd probably include Cyclopes as a playable race, representing the type of ones who are responsible for Cyclopean Masonry, rather than the more monstrous brood of Poseidon.

>> No.53347815

>>53347738
Thank you senpai.

>> No.53347920

>>53320316
Dumb italyfag, romans went extinct, you are a Lombard, born from incest and racemixing.

>> No.53347942

>>53342576
You're literally doing what he says. You're part of the problem. There were no homosexuals in ancient greece because homosexual is a very specific term for a very specific time and society and doesn't apply to ancient greece or even half of the modern and un-westernized world. They may have similar concepts and they may have practised identical acts, but acts are not what is important in a society. Talking about modern homosexuality comes with a thousand of implied assumptions that would not exist in classic greece.

>> No.53347976

>>53347920
Just because you dumb new-worlders settled in an empty post-apocalyptic shithole doesn't mean that the rest of historical migrations worked the same way.

>> No.53348219

And now just because I've been bitten by the creative bug, I figured I'd start work on other races for 5e. Here's the Centaur:

Centaur Traits
Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 2, and your Dexterity score increases by 1.
Age. Centaurs reach adulthood in their late teens and live less than a century.
Alignment. Centaurs tend towards Chaotic alignments, caring more for freedom than for anything else. While most centaurs care little for good or evil, some are known to have been great paragons of virtue or vice.
Size. Centaurs are over 6 foot in height, and weigh between 900 to 1100 pounds. Your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 40 feet.
Powerful Build. You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift.
Hooves. Your hooves count as a natural weapon, which you can use to make unarmed strikes. If you hit with it, you deal bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6+ your Strength modifier.
Aggressive. As a bonus action, you can move up to your speed closer toward an enemy of your choice that you can see or hear. You must end this move closer to the enemy than you started.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common, Elvan, and Sylvan.

>> No.53348782

>The Gods pretty much follow the idea of might makes right and zoophilia isn't a thing. Remember the Minotaur.
What does this even means? I know nothing about Greece mythology.

>> No.53349191

>>53347768
Might be interesting:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/mhs/mhs10.htm
>Hephaestus of Grecian mythology, was also the patron of blacksmiths and workers in metals. Beneath AEtna, with the aid of those famed artisans, the Cyclops, he forged the thunderbolts of Jove; and there also, according to tradition, were made the trident of Neptune, Pluto's helmet, and the shield of Hercules. Hephaestus was thus a controller and master of fire.

>The Cyclops were believed by the ancients to have invented the art of forging; and the discovery of the peculiar qualities of iron was attributed to certain mythical beings called the Dactyls, who dwelt in Phrygia, and who were thought to have acquired this knowledge from observation of the fusion of metals at the fabulous burning of Mount Ida. The Dactyls had the reputation of being wizards, whose very names possessed a mysterious protective power when pronounced by persons exposed to sudden dangers.

>Certain semi-fabulous tribes of central Asia, workers in metals, kept secret the mysteries of their craft, and were wont to indulge in wild orgies and festivities, which served to inspire with awe the uninitiated. At such times they danced until frenzied with excitement, to the accompaniment of cymbals and tambourines and the clashing of weapons. The people of neighboring tribes feared to approach them, believing that they were possessed of a magical power which enabled them to transform one metal into another and to forge thunderbolts. They were reputed to be masters of fire and of the elements, and their forges, like Vulcan's, were volcanoes.

>These barbarous peoples were sometimes confounded with the Dactyls, Corybantes, Cabiri, and Curetes, traditional metallurgists endowed with supernatural skill, and therefore popularly reckoned as magicians, or even as divinities. For a long period they were supposed to be vested with the exclusive knowledge of metal-working, a knowledge shrouded in mystery.

>> No.53349452

>>53348782
The Minotaur is the most famous result of gods meddling with mortals to "correct injustices" as they see fit.

King Minos was suposed to sacrifice a bull given to him by Poseidon, but he decided to keep it instead. The god then made his wife, Pasiphaë, lust for bull dick. She then had the court inventor Daedalus build a hollow wooden cow in which she went to make the bull think it fucked a cow instead of her. She got pregnant with the minotaur, for which Daedalus built a labyrinth.

This is one case of many in which the gods punish mortals in ways that don't quite match what happened or are quite overblown compared to the crime. But if the god inquestion thought it was okay, that's enough. Other gods might disagree, but I don't think any of them had a good moral ground for that.

Plus, gods turning into animals and mating with people was a thing. People mating with animals as well. The king of the scythian nomads was born from a drakaina which stole Herakles' cattle to force him to fuck her. It went further, one origin story for a tribe of centaurs was that Zeus jacked off after failing to get Aphrodite. His cum fell in the island of Cyprus. The island itself gave birth to the centaurs from that.

>> No.53351880

>>53348219
neat

>> No.53352948

>>53349452
So if Minos would have just tended to the bull his wife wouldn't have cucked him?

>> No.53353279

>>53352948
If he'd killed the bull, yes

>> No.53354315

>>53322954
Syracuse was also democratic (when they didn't have Tyrants).

Athens seriously fucked up in the Peloponnesian Wars by invading Sicily against all common sense and attacking another Democratic city state. When they invaded other cities they would promise Democratic governments to the populations if they opened the gates, betraying the current government. Though Syracuse was already a Constitutional Democracy and the Athenians ended up stuck outside the walls and slowly starved to death as they had nothing to offer anyone.

Athens sent around 30,000 soldiers and most of the navy to take Syracuse. Sparta sent a military advisor called Gylippus to help Syracuse.

Total Spartan victory.

>> No.53354477

>>53329841

Vercingetorix, Jugurtha of Numidia, Aristonikos of the Heliopolitai and the very few who suffered the Spoilia Oppia were sacrfices to the Roman State and the Triumphator.

Rome buried a dozen people alive as a sacrifice to the gods of the underworld after the Battle of Cannae to win the 2nd Punic War.

Gladiatorial combat was originally a sacrifice for the honour of wealthy deceased Roman Patricians known as the Funery Games.

>> No.53357034

>>53354477
fuckin hypocritical romans

>> No.53357963

>>53354477
>Rome buried a dozen people alive as a sacrifice to the gods of the underworld after the Battle of Cannae to win the 2nd Punic War.
Because of some prophecy in a set of three sacred books that were supposedly sold to one of the ancient Roman kings and were only opened up whenever the Roman state was facing a severe crisis and desperate for answers (like after losing most of the Roman army in a massive battle against a military genius the likes of which hasn't been seen since Alexander). The fact that the Romans did this only goes to show how desperate they were, considering the Romans otherwise deplored the practice of human sacrifice. You make it sound like they did this regularly.

>> No.53360779

>>53344749
>implying a mortal getting powered up by Athena and shitting all over Ares and Aphrodite isn't an important event

>> No.53361278

>>53360779
Uh, he never said it wasn't?

>> No.53364533

>>53357963
i too watch historia civilis

>> No.53365170
File: 1.36 MB, 979x1542, Persian_Fire.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
53365170

>>53318530
Pic-related is a pretty good pop-history book.
It focuses primarily on the Greco-Persian wars, but it does give you a lot of colour for both Greece and the Achaemenid Empire. It's also very readable, it's very narrative, blending the broad sweep of the clash of cultures with personal stories.
If you have any more time I'd recommend reading Herodotus, but that's more a task.

You gotta remember that the situation of Classical Greece was very much informed by the Greco-Persian war, so if you're planning a Classical Greece-based setting you'll probably want a similar event in the recent past.

>> No.53366229

>>53320200
Caesar DID bankrupt himself. He had to have Crassus guarantee his loans before his debtors would let him go to his province.

Which he fucking gutted for the money to pay it all back when his governorship was over. Like, economic meltdown kind of gutting.

>> No.53366446

>>53324964
He's Athenian fanwank. Look through the Iliad and tell me how many big-dick Athenian heroes there are.

>> No.53366542

>>53328613
That sounds more like Poseidon.

I mean, Zeus will get what he wants, but he prefers the chase and challenge, once he wins he kind of just moves on. See: Hera, Alcmene, Danae, Callisto, etc.

>> No.53366691

>>53324864
The men have to have some advantage to counter out being the naturally disposable ones.
Or else they won't be encouraged to be disposable any more, and the women will have to do things the disposable guys do, which kills population rates, which makes shit go downhill...

>> No.53367138
File: 470 KB, 900x800, 1464819970887.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
53367138

would orcs be germans or nomad riders?

>> No.53368835

>>53367138
I'd say part of it depends on what exactly Orcs are in this setting, are they just big ugly men, or are they the more old fashioned pig Orcs?

>> No.53369496

>>53368835
Go with pig-orcs, but steal from ACKS and M&M: make them ride giant boars into battle.

>> No.53370097

>>53368835
I'd say make them big ugly men, servants of Horkos, god of oaths and vengeance against those who swear them falsely.

They were born when a king swore a false oath and angered the gods. In retribution the orcs rose up to pillage his realm (In much the same way as Harpies).

It is said that they will only be cleansed from Greece when men swear no more false oaths.

But men are ever false, and so the orcs remain.

>> No.53370535

>>53320200
>They'd still siesta and fiesta
>Italians
>siesta and fiesta
Bless your ignorant heart.

>> No.53371361

>>53370535
latins schmatins, they're all the same :^)

>> No.53371726

>>53318530

Include lots and lots of boy-fucking.

>> No.53373930

You know, I really like the bronze age much better than the iron age and post-medieval age

>> No.53376503

>>53357963

The Sibylline Books, yes. They also introduced the Eunuch Cult of Magna Mater as per its instructions.

You failed to comment on either the human sacrifices held at the end of the Triumph or the Gladiatorial games, which happened very frequently.

The slain gladiator was a sacrifice to the honour of the host of the games. The Aztecs had a similar practice, in which they tied a victim to a rock and gave them a stick covered in cotton buds to fight off 3 armed Jaguar Knights.

The buried alive 3 of the 4 Vestal Virgins in 1 year in around 114bc

Human sacrifice was something the Greeks greatly disliked. The Romans used it whenever it suited them. It just gets brushed aside as anomalous despite its prevalence.

>> No.53377196

>>53376503
>Human sacrifice was something the Greeks greatly disliked
Dark Ages Greece was replete with human sacrifice though, and the tradition of the pharmakos carried pretty far into Athenian history.

>> No.53377638

>>53328236
Achilles is the questionably aged one actually. The dynamics of their relationship would just lead you to think otherwise, but Patroclus is the elder, it's just that Achilles is overall much more accomplished and manlier than him so he gets to take the role the elder usually would. That said by the events of the Iliad he's probably in mid 20s or so.

That was the meaning of him shaving his hair towards the end of the poem. Traditionally that would have been done as a rite of passage to adulthood, but he left to the Trojan war while still very young. Pretty transparent symbolism there.

>> No.53377740

>>53365170
I agree with this man.

>> No.53378366

>>53377196

Agamemnon of course being the greatest example killing poor Iphigenia for a better wind to Troy.

It kinda died off very suddenly throughout the greek world. It just seemed to go out of fashion there and in Pheonicia.

Bizzarely, the Carthaginians went the opposite direction.

>> No.53378428
File: 67 KB, 896x617, 68be9f_5445782.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
53378428

>>53320163

>> No.53378534

>>53318530

Read Lucius of Samosata's A True Story.

A snide Cynical Philosopher writing a fantasy story about his trip to the Moon.

He fought in a war against Titanic Cloud Centaurs, beat back an invasion from Tartarus led by King Phalaris and other infamous tyrants, his skin was charred from the forever burning metal from his Bronze Bull. Phaethon the King of the Sun attempted to conquer the Morning Star to expand his Empire of the Heavens.

Its really weird (and not a long rant full of tangents like Herodotus).

Though to get a lot of the humour, you have to know a good bit about Greek history.

>> No.53379280

>>53378534
Lucian of Samosata

>> No.53379601

>>53347976
But that does describe well Italy Just before the Lombards. It had been conquered by Justinian and destroyed by war, then came the Justinian Plague, which was as catastrophic as the Black Death

>> No.53379663

>>53379601
Still minor compared to what happened in the new world. And even the new world is today mostly indigenous or mixed.

>> No.53381227
File: 330 KB, 1050x1500, stefan-kopinski-zeus-magic.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
53381227

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