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53209452 No.53209452 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Historically, Paladins waged an unchecked war of aggression for 300 years. They committed routine atrocities and looted and ransacked several cities.

Why does D&D try to distort this historical narrative?

>> No.53209808

Consider this: Muslims are chaotic evil and the Paladins were simply doing their jobs and smiting them.

>> No.53209833

Y'mean the response to the muslim aggression going on for the prior couple hundred?

Gee, violence begat violence, are you fucking surprised?

>> No.53209935

it's not like the paladins fucked themselves up in the 4th Crusade by massacring off their own followers anyway, right?

>> No.53209938

ITT: OP, being the unrelenting faggot that he is, fails to understand the events of history.

>> No.53209977

Well, he's right.

The Saxon migration was caused because the Franks were "Muh christanity" and started killing their neighbors for no reason.

>> No.53209983


The Byzantines, while technically Christian, were treacherous, backstabbing, and evil as fuck.

>> No.53210002

D&D was created cis white males who wanted to ensure that the patriarchy emains dominant in rpgs by showing that white male adherence to law, codes of warfare, denial of base desires up to celibacy, and selflessness was somehow good.

>> No.53210007

They don't even mention Paladins or the Franks in American schools. That's shit you got to research on your own choice, or pick as a topic of study past High school.

So chances are OP is a raging faggot who thought he be ironically retarded for free attention.

Or he's a dumb European.

>> No.53210011

The only similarity the two have are in name though. Real paladins didn't get magical powers from the god they fight for. Why would you ever look into the historical accuracy of this game?

Do you want to discuss how the game misrepresents old germanic battle tactics with its portrayal of the barbarian?

>> No.53210067


Prior to Romanization they were EXACTLY like that

>> No.53210069

The Saxons were notorious for raiding. Charlemagne did not attack them unprovoked.

>> No.53210073

Considering the ridiculous crap that went down in the crusades the paladins in question were pretty much chaotic stupid.

>> No.53210089

Historically, the Paladins were explicitly members of Charlemagne's peerage and never numbered more than a dozen or so dudes. Also historically they didn't exist.

You are mixing them up with The Crusaders

>> No.53210099

>The Saxons
>Notorious for Raiding

What? The Saxons have no real account of being raiders at all. Hell, the Saxon Migration is notoriously bloodless save for a few incidents.

>> No.53210132

>massive migrations of unknown foreigners into your land isn't an issue

Europe can barely handle it right now with the benefit of modern infrastructure and technology, what makes you think it would have been BETTER then?

>> No.53210159

Because at the time the British isles were inhabited almost solely on the eastern coast. The Anglo-Saxon migration populated the western coast and it only came to blows in places like Cornwall.

You have to remember post Roman-Flight, Britain had a massive population loss as the Romans basically tore up infrastructure as they left.

It also helps The Saxons and such were Christian as they landed on Britain, and one of the first things they did meeting the celts is build a Church to symbolize unity.

>> No.53210200

Berserkers didn't really exist

>> No.53210208

Lindybeige pls go

>> No.53210216

Yet we have accounts of the word Berserker. It may not be an almost magically mad guy, but they existed as some form of Warrior role.

>> No.53210530

>Fourth Crusade
>Big Good Pope Guy gives us a quest to go to the Holy Land and Smite Kebab
>Face rolls to persuade the Venetians to give us ships
>Natural 20
>They literally give us so many ships that it destroys their shipping economy
>we fail our check to recruit and only get a third as many people as we said we would
>They still expect us to pay in full
>we can't afford it
>we agree to do some raids for them, w/e
>raid almost ends up with us falling since it turns out the guys they had us raid were also LG
>DM offers us an out on our debt and a way to make up for screwing up our recruiting roll if we're willing to play a more politics-oriented sidequest
>A Byzantine prince wants our help to put his father on the throne
>He promises to pay our debts to the Venetians, give us troops, boats, and elite knights if we do.
>"Sure, why not, seems like an easy sidequest."
>six months later
>In the middle of a civil war
>set fire to the city lol
>finally get our guy on the throne through some political trickery involving him and his dad being emperor at the same time
>his dad dies, so he's on the throne
>the old emperor ran off with most of their gold, so he can't pay us yet
>orders the melting down of holy relics and icons
>the citizens don't like this at all
>miss some blatantly obvious hints
>coup happens, enemy general takes over, gets crowned emperor
>we try asking him nicely to pay us
>lol no
>why not sack the city?
>spend literally 3 days looting, murdering, and burning shit
>That guy decides to get a little creepy with raping nuns, we just ignore him
>One guy has a fucking brilliant idea
>he runs down, grabs a hooker, and sits her on the city's off-brand version of the Pope's throne
>get her drunk as fuck
>keep pillaging
>pay off our debts in full, honorably split the loot with the Venetians, and secretly keep about 500,000gp on the side
>suddenly think "Wait a minute, the Pope's not gonna be happy".
>wait a few days
>get a strongly worded letter.

>> No.53210717

>war of aggression
>A war of aggression, sometimes also war of conquest, is a military conflict waged without the justification of self-defense

Yeah no.

>> No.53210762

>started killing their neighbors for no reason
Charlemagne invaded them 3 times each time with casus belli, it's a poking a much larger enemy thinking they'd ignore you.

>> No.53210836

>save for a few incidents
Notably the sacking and burning of the church of Deventer, hence the Frankish invasion.

>> No.53210840

At what point does the Necromancer show up with the undead army you failed to stop?

>> No.53210959

>Not neutral evil fighting men

>> No.53211097

I mean, D&D's bards and druids aren't exactly like the actual bards and druids of European myth, either.

>> No.53211225


>> No.53211231

>Historically, Paladins waged an unchecked war of aggression for 300 years.
Yes, those were peace-loving times, if only it wasn't for """Paladin scum"""!!!!!!

>> No.53211309


>> No.53211889

Egypt used to be Christian, it also used to be filled with Egyptians and not Arabs, I wonder what happened to all those people.

Greeks used to live in all of Anatolia, and not all be half-Arab, what happened to that.

Really activates them almonds.

>> No.53211956
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Everyone should be.

Have you tried taking a good look at the people who tell you not to be angry about Islam?

>> No.53212091

>Paladins waged an unchecked war of aggression for 300 years

Yes unlike the peaceful Muslims who committed atrocities against the majorly Christian population of those regions for 450 years before the first crusade.

>> No.53212108
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Paladin = / = Crusader

Paladins are fictional imaginations of the perfect knight. Crusaders were mercenaries fighting for gold and the absolution of their sins.

You're all retarded and should all just fucking kill yourselves.

>> No.53212121

>implying paladins ever really existed

/pol/cucks can't even get shitposting right.

>> No.53212135

>newfags performing a /pol/-summoning by bitching about /pol/ for no damn reason

Shariablue accusations in 3.. 2.. 1..

>> No.53212151
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>guy makes a silly class argument thread
>/pol/fags immediately jump on it, unable to see the difference between paladins and crusaders in both history and game mechanics

Board war now, gas the /pol/cunts.

>> No.53212159
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>muh muh muh CTR muh CTR muh CTR

Fuck off, kill yourself.

>> No.53212169

>guy makes a silly class argument thread
>newfags show up bitching about /pol/
>/pol/ shows up

And this is how people can tell that you are new.

>> No.53212179
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>people talk about the crusade

>> No.53212183

This. I was literally confused by this thread because the Paladins are twelve heroic dudes, wut. One of them was even a Muslim convert, IIRC, another a Viking.

>> No.53212184

Fuck off, this thread got infected by fucking cocksucking /pol/ shitposters right from the start.


PALADINS and CRUSADERS are always distinct from each other and there are shitloads of modules where paladins and crusaders ACTIVELY FIGHT each other.

>> No.53212188
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>historical narrative

>> No.53212190

Hi /pol/

>> No.53212192

What the FUCK do paladins have to do with crusades? Paladins don't perform crusades. They smite evil.

>> No.53212196

Can we talk more about Crusaders and less about /pol/ please?

Also would the Knights of the Round table be considered Paladins?

>> No.53212197

Ask OP about it.
Its like you are pretending to be retarded.

>> No.53212201

subtle bait

>> No.53212219
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>> No.53212223
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Goddamn I wish I could kill all you retards.

Paladins are mythological warriors, they never existed in real life. Fuck.

>> No.53212225
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>> No.53212233

That depends on which version of the story you base it on. Weren't it the French who gave King Arthur & Co. Superpowers in their Fanfics?

>> No.53212247

I think so.

>> No.53212265

Wasn't Lancelot entirely a French invention?

>> No.53212266

Not much to talk about Crusaders. They were the OG murderhobos.

My ancestors used to go on crusade. One of my ancestors actually got murdered by another crusader over a conflict about fiefs back home in what is now Germany. So if you want to use crusaders in your campaign, don't feel bad about putting in some friendly fire. Crusaders were not very... united in their efforts.

>> No.53212297
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Holger the Dane. Fun fact: The sword the British use in crowning their kings and queens is supposedly Holger the Dane's sword.

>> No.53212324

These mostly look like people who are kinda worried about Islam. Both sides primarily consist of regular, working, law-abiding, tax-paying citizens.

>> No.53212328

Did he act knightly?

I can almost imagine the Round Table meetings.

>what will we do about the celts? there is word of border conflicts along the...

>> No.53212379

Well historically speaking, fighters were some hapless farmer been sent to die in some war he didn't understand and Wizards were powerless charlatans.

>> No.53212437


>It also helps The Saxons and such were Christian as they landed on Britain

No they fucking weren't. You think the Gregorian mission and the Irish coming over were competing holiday camps or something?

>> No.53212454

Vikings weren't just that. I mean look at Cnut.

>> No.53212467

A quick glance on Wikipedia shows that the nobility liked Christianity, but the peasants really fucking hated it, and kept on killing missionaries and priests.

>> No.53212468

>Round Table meetings
Charlemagne, not Arthur.

Also a bunch of King Arthur's knights were Celts. You can even play a Celtic Pagan knight in Pendragon, I thinnk.

>> No.53212473

It MAY have been shrooms. Not sure how good a source this is but: https://erowid.org/plants/amanitas/amanitas_info8.shtml
Espeacially following sentence:
>I have heard a couple stories of people eating a bunch of muscaria and running willy-nilly through the forest with total disregard for their safety (they can also give you amazing strength and endurance for the nonce).

>> No.53212483

Nah that was in there from the Welsh folktales.

True that. At the same time for many the religious motivation was sincere. The first crusade is interesting as shit to read about.

>> No.53212485


>> No.53212501


Conversion was top-down and is pre-dated by the initial Germanic settlement of Britain. I guarantee you the first thing the invaders did with the Britons upon arrival from the 5th century was not 'build a fucking church'.

>> No.53212645
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>Tfw paladins cavalier sub-class

>> No.53212679

Thanks for being the voice of reason in a retarded thread, anon.

OP, you are a fucking moron. Please kill yourself.

>> No.53212682

Shrooms are very different from amanitas.


I imagine that the whole crusaders backstabbing each other during a crusade was less seen like how we'd see it today - as something bad - but more like a natural consequence of politics. I mean, when you shank and smash each other to death back in England or France, you're not really gonna stop when you're in the Holy Land.

>> No.53212714

I just used shrooms as a short form of mushrooms. Didn't know that shrooms is apparently mostly used for Psilocybin mushrooms.
Learning something new every day I guess.
polite sage because off-topic

>> No.53212896

Sure. I mean take Bohemond who is my fave of the first lot. He's disinherited in dynastic struggles in Italy and proves himself in a bunch of small wars across Italy, the Balkans and Greece (he fights against the Byzantine Emperor when young).

Of course when he crusades and is among the leaders of the crusades he's still carrying out this mercenary kind of politicking. He's probably one of the crusader leaders most transparently venally motivated.

But it's the juxtaposition that gets me, that for instance Bohemond takes a city by treachery *but only after the other princes have agreed to give the city to whoever takes it*. So while they're laying siege they exhaust their supplies and are being knowingly killed off by delay by one of their leaders. And two armies attack them too, but even though they're fucking exhausted and half of them are dead and most of their horses die they beat the armies. Then they take the city and plunder and two factions fight each other over who takes the citadel, because each wants to hold the city against the other. They kill a bunch of Christians too because they can't tell who's Christian or Muslim in the city.

THEN this huge army led by a renowned Turkish general turns up which has been formed specifically for the purpose of kicking their asses. They think they're doomed, they offer to duel him only and he turns them down. Some of them desert. Some random priest claims to have found the Holy Lance and he later walks through fire to prove it miraculously dying of unrelated burns three days later. Most of the leaders don't believe him but the soldiers do. They push out the gates and defeat the enemy army. These guys are covered in blood; they've fought army after army and their animals have died, their friends have died, they've probably bankrupted themselves just buying rations. All that's left to them is this miracle.

I can see why the Crusades were a transformative experience for the participants.

>> No.53213157

>I can see why the Crusades were a transformative experience for the participants.

What I dont understand is why there is so much misinformation about the Crusades out there in the form of "the big bad christian mercs were attacking the holy land for years, trying to chase out the peaceful muslim inhabitants" when all you need is take a look into a history book to see that all those lands weren't muslim beforehand.

Especially since it seems like its a recent thing.

>> No.53213213

Sure, but territorial ambitions rarely work like that. Antioch (the city I'm talking about) was first captured by Muslims very shortly after the time of Muhammad and held for about 400 years before being recaptured by the Byzantines for a century or so. Easy to see why both sides had their claims.

The actual form and aggression the Crusades took was probably not at all what Alexius had in mind when he asked for aid. Bohemond himself ends up fighting against Alexius again later in life from his new Turkish principality.

>> No.53213219

Are you fucking stupid?

It's pushback for years on years on years of "Crusaders did nothing wrong, Muslims were literally worshiping beelzebub."

The Crusades are a load of morally grey warriors fighting morally grey warriors, allowing Christiand and Muslim society to expel some dangerous political and military energy away from their own societies.

>> No.53213255


They were Muslim-held, but yes, it's pretty funny considering the Muslims themselves weren't that bothered about THE CRUSADERS until after WWI. It's been argued that the obsession of first Arabic nationalists and then Islamists was partly a product of the colonial education that reminded them that, oh yeah, that was a thing. At the time and for a long time afterwards Muslims were a lot more concerned with the Mongols than the comparatively trivial and well-behaved Franks.

>> No.53213267

>grey and grey
Not true. One side was more justified than the other.

>> No.53213281

>At the time and for a long time afterwards Muslims were a lot more concerned with the Mongols than the comparatively trivial and well-behaved Franks.

>> No.53213345

Not to mention that the crusaders were invited by a byzantine political faction and just acted accordingly to their loyalties when their pretender was murdered.

>> No.53213366

Get this. Its not a fucking history game dumbass, its FANTASY

>> No.53213370

all those lands weren't muslim beforehand.
They were. It's just that the Seljuk overthrew the Abbasid and were huge dicks to everyone. Most of Europe had no issue with the third caliphate before that.

>> No.53213397

>Not to mention that the crusaders were invited by a byzantine political faction
I mean, you can't ignore the political ambitions of the church and the actual crusade leaders. That was a pretext, sure.

>> No.53213430

>Paladins are Crusaders
Ok, OP confirmed for faggot

>> No.53213437

>Ignore the fact men today admire a code of ethics that encouraged men to show women respect. One based on knights that kicked the ass of Muslims, true oppressors of women.

>Ignore the fact women have always been able to be paladins and no where is it stated in any rule book that only men can be paladins.

>> No.53213465

They were Norse warriors, not German.
They wore the skin of animals and believed the animals powers would give them the strength of it in battle.

They'd drive themselves into a anger because anger and adrenaline block pain receptors. So while the accounts that they did resist many wounds were true, they were not magic and absolutely died right afterwards.

>> No.53213843

Same reason spaniards are evil for killing aztecs and incas, when those lands where not aztec or inca a couple of centuries before.

>> No.53213886

Everyone all the time has "ambitions".

>> No.53213981

>Historically, Paladins waged an unchecked war of aggression for 300 years.
Are you telling me the peers of Charlemagne, Led by Count Palentine continued to fight the moors for 300 years? I'm fairly sure that's not biologically possible in reality.

>> No.53214473

The first thing they probably did was probably hammer out the fine details of their contract.

I'm pretty sure the Saxons that came over were mercenaries hired by the native tribes to supplement their forces for old grievance settling and Roman remnant removal, hired by other tribes for defending against their neighbours and settling grudges and by the Roman remnants who had just had their actual military withdrawn and needed someone to help them pacify the natives.

British isle were a clusterfuck of hilarious proportions when the Saxons came over.

Irish raiders and slavers, Scottish raiders, Scandinavian raiders, fucking Shetlanders, tribes shifting position based on who sold out to Rome and who defied them, foreign mercenaries coming in, Pax Romana no longer being a thing, Roman enclaves in Cornwall, Londinium and up at The Wall, at least two distinct branches of Paganism and three branches of Christianity and absolutely everybody wanted to murder everybody else.

>> No.53215487

You retard

The Saxons, Angles, and Jutes migrated three hundred years before Charlemagne avenged the repeatedly broken oaths and attacks on Christians on those Saxons who had remained

>> No.53215539
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>> No.53216007

This. The Crusades were just seen as a conflict with a religion within the "family".

The Mongols were seen as a Satanic horde acting as a prelude to the End of Times. It was so apocalyptic, it allowed radical fundamentalist luddite forces to take over all over the Middle East.

>> No.53216085

You're doubting superior frankish biology? Shame on you, anon.
Next you'll be telling us you don't believe in gabs.

>> No.53216243
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how soon after a game is released are we able to talk about it on /tg/ btw? Because once you hit Britain in this shit is great.

>> No.53216356

Friendly reminder that the Muslims occupied Naples and raided the outskirts of Rome while also knocking on the doors of Constantinople within living memory of the crusaders. Three cities of the Pentarchy were in Muslim hands, one had only just been given breathing space and the fifth was on the verge of falling. The religion of peace strikes again!

>Are you telling me the peers of Charlemagne, Led by Count Palentine continued to fight the moors for 300 years?
That's the famoud élan vital! Shame the last guy who had anything even vaguely resembling that died 47 years ago.

>> No.53216380

Three Hearts and Three Lions.

>> No.53216395
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>> No.53218374

>historical accuracy

>> No.53218484

That was the behavior of the era. If you cherry pick history you could hate whoever.. But really, there wasn't much difference between the paladins and the people they were fighting. Plus, Europe was invaded constantly as well.

>> No.53218530

>They committed routine atrocities and looted and ransacked several cities

Its not atrocity if its against orcs and orc cities.

>> No.53218563

Yes, by Chretian de Troyes.

>> No.53218797

The crusades were in response to Jihad which lasted 800 years and resulted in the conquest of many European Nations. Any awful thing you can name the crusaders doing, the Muslims bag been doing worse for longer by the time the crusades even started.

>> No.53218836

>in the conquest of many European Nations.

Name one other than Spain

I'm betting you're the same sort of double nigger that believes they're still trying to invade Europe

>> No.53218917

Italy, what is modern day France, Portugal.

>> No.53218950

Holding Sicily doesn't count as "conquering" Italy anymore than having the Falklands "conquered" Argentina

>> No.53219145

Fine then, Sicily, Malta and Portugal smartass.

>> No.53219199

The reason why they didn't conquer that many European nations was because of a massive effort to fight against it. Remember that the expansion of Islam reached up to Tours and the Danube. That's a lot of Europe.

>> No.53220351

When did they get past the Pyrenees?

>> No.53221954

In the 8th century. Conquered most of South France.

>> No.53222090

So, they didn't get very far past the Pyrenees.

>> No.53222140
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No, they got pretty far past the Pyrenees

>> No.53225172

>Commies generally are

>> No.53225214

Then why did they Sack Constantinople?

>> No.53226210
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