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[ERROR] No.53130736 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Rolled 12 (1d26)

Mount stupid Edition
Imbalanced Chess Sub-edition
The Emperor taught Praevians how to teleport their robbos behind their enemies (dammit ADB), podcasts know shit about the game but you couldn't edit good things on 1d4chan if you tried and only homemade spreadsheets say the truth. UMs (probably AL agents) tried to be more obnoxious than SWs without success, and Tarvitz & Tal are still in our hearts. Carry them with you wherever you go. Lots of list and mini advise in the previous, actually comfy bread. Even with audiobooks >>53111916

>Thread FAQ
http://pastebin.com/iUqNrrA8

>Official HH 7th Edition Errata (not updated since January 2016)
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Horus_Heresy_7th_Edition.pdf

>30k TACTICA & TIPS
What to include in a HH list, how to format it, what makes each legion special (crunch), tactics, Tutorials for Heresy-era minis and more
http://pastebin.com/Tm2P4QLp

>HH Books, Novels and Rulebooks galore
http://pastebin.com/k9uvqsub
https://sys.4chan.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.docdroid.net%2Ffz1OuHK%2Fcrusade-imperialis-army-lists.pdf.html
https://sys.4chan.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.docdroid.net%2FZTK72gs%2Flegiones-astartes-age-of-darkness-army-list.pdf.html
https://sys.4chan.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmega.nz%2F%23F!BxI1HSgI!0tKymKh9RZTzGpgIA5EyCg

>/HHG/'s Legion demographics
http://www.strawpoll.me/10558764

>/HHG/'s allegiances
www.strawpoll.me/10663447

>Primarch Popularity Poll
http://www.strawpoll.me/11458318

>STUFF ANONS ASK FOR
http://www49.zippyshare.com/v/aYWlVV9f/file.html
http://www32.zippyshare.com/v/heDZWytT/file.html
http://www.mediafire.com/file/sc266oa6al1jb7o/the-binary-succession.mp3

>> No.53130762

>>53130736

>> No.53130832

>>53130762
Nice pic traitor

>> No.53130880

3rd for the third legion glory to horus!

>> No.53130882

>>53130762
Gotta admit, I do like robes, cloaks and harnesses on top of power armour.

>> No.53131121

>>53130880

>> No.53131188

>>53130762
Does that look kind of like a giant mouse to you? It's nose is a bit stubby to be a wolf or a rat.

It's kind of adorable.

>> No.53131241

Sooo /hhg/ i have read the first few heresy books about loken, and istavaan, and the einstein and the like. I enjoy it, but now Loken is gone, is it worth reading the rest? I enjoyed seeing pre murder boner Sigsmund and dorn (since i play imp fists in 40k) but i hear terrible, terrible things about the series as a whole.

I know /tv/ occasionally does prefered watching lists of episodes for tv shows they like as a whole, but not every episode. Is there a prefered reading list you all have? Im still kinda new to the 30k setting though, but know 40k pretty well, so what can i read to enjoy and educate on the lore.

>> No.53131283

I want to end him. It's become a desire I near on dream about. To cast the old false king from his rusted throne. In the back of my mind I can't help but feel the thought pulse across my psyche 'Death to the False Empereor.'
The Legions were made to cast down the Tyrants of the Old Night. Well, we missed one brothers. Let us correct our mistake.

>> No.53131370

I saw this in WIP and I was thinking would I get away with doing White Scar Sagyar Mazan units in black armour.

seeing as they are disgraced outcast units.

>> No.53131390

>>53131283
yes brother long live horus! long live Fulgrim!

>> No.53131437

>>53131241
In no particular order, I would recommend not missing:
>First Heretic
>Betrayer
>A Thousand Sons
>the entire white scars storyline, but definitely Scars & Path Of Heaven
>Know No Fear
That should keep you busy. While Vengeful Spirit is important plot-wise, you may want to give it a miss, though I can't tell you why.

Also, the short story compilations are generally excellent, and give a good feel for the various legions and state of the galaxy. The other bonus is, if you do get a story that isn't very good, it'll be over soon being, you know, short.

The one author to always, ALWAYS, avoid, is Nick Kyme. Just don't read anything with his name on. Trust me.

>> No.53131440

>>53131283
Mankind had 30000+ years to better itself, but the moment warp travel was shut off, they were helpess against the horrors of the galaxy, and all their technology proved insufficient and was lost.
Mankind must evolve and become its master with its connection to the warp (or sever it), rather than be enslaved by it. That was His dread. You have ruined humanity and cast your lot with the dark powers of the universe. We shall protect that dream.

>> No.53131523

>>53131283
>>53131390
kys fucking traitors

>> No.53131558

>>53131440
I have no interest in the pacts diabolic that my weaker kin have taken upon themselves. My only wish, everything I was ever built for, was to free my species from the shackles of the old night. To free them from the terror of petty tyrants and murderous xenos. To. Make. Them. Free. That you cling to your gilded harness even now shows you are just as deluded as any other loyalist.

>> No.53131579

>>53131440
And then He gave up after one try, when the other races left countless alternatives. Ask the Pariahs whether Humanity is doomed. I follow no Dark Powers, but I refuse to bow to a golden pretender on a distant throne who tries for dominion by right of existence. Tell him to come here if he wants Madre Forge so badly. Then we shall see how his inconstant sons fare against orbital fire.

>> No.53131629

>>53131440
I bet you like that faggot saul tarvitz, hate that guy he is a traitor to fulgrim!

>>53131523
haha I can't hear you over all this endless ecstasy you are missing out loyalist!

>>53131579
>>53131558
the emperor is just not perfect enough

>> No.53131710

>>53131629
And you scum, fallen so far when our cause could have been so noble. Giving your souls to the apocalypse because your own selfish whims told you to. You sicken me. In our noble cause of casting down a tyrant. You have become the same. When our duty is done, and the False Lord is dead, there shall be a reckoning between us 'Cousin'.

>> No.53131890

>>53131241
Pretty much what >>53131437 said.

You may want to listen to the Garro audiobook for a surprise, followed by the short story Luna Mendax and then Vengeful Spirit. They aren't top-tier but you'll find them interesting.

I personally liked Fulgrim and Angel Exterminatus in addition to the previous recommendations. Tallarn: Executationer was good too but I haven't read all the Tallarn books yet. Praetorian of Dorn is mostly good, and Master of Mankind is too important not to read. Oh, and if you play IF read The Crimson Fist too.

The Imperium Secundus arc is a weak spot and a source of a lot of negativity about the series. Mixed reviews on the Dark Angels books

>> No.53131891

>>53131710
we are in pursuit of the ultimate perfection in mind and body, our warfare is immaculate and we will feel the most perfect sensations that our bodies can experience! if you night lords refuse to accept these gifts so be it.

>> No.53131911

>>53131710
We and mine hold likewise. Tailored corrosive bombardment, perhaps. We will require captives for analysis, however. It's been a while since I've had a new medium to try.

>> No.53131921

>>53131437
>entire white scars storyline
I would highly recommend Brotherhood of the Storm, a novella that provides a lot of background info and insight into some of the Scars' storyline's main characters. Also just a great read.

>> No.53131953

>>53131437
>Also, the short story compilations are generally excellent,
Thank you! I feel so many people skip over the anthologies, when in total they account for over a third of the series, much more if you subtract off Nick Kyme and Ben Counter's garbage. I especially feel the later anthologies have been excellent and really tied together a lot of the weaker elements of novels. I can't imagine someone going into Vengeful Spirit without having read Daemonology.

>> No.53131988

>>53131891
Perfection is both impossible and distinctly overrated. Tell me, what great works have your hedonistic kin wrought or broken? Only the weakest mind tries to comprehend its limits.

>Load Macrocannon, prepare for seed bombardment and Cloud deployment.

>> No.53132319

>>53131988
we work toward the perfection of war our augmentations will make us perfect!

>> No.53132373

>>53132319
Apparently not. Enjoy your novel agonies, for I fear your enhanced voice won't avail you of much here.

>> No.53132413

>>53131241
In addition to >>53131437 I would add Prospero Burns, but mainly because I like the human-perspective depictions of the Astartes and it's got the Astartes vs Ayys/Weird Humans I liked from the first trilogy. And it's Abnett, so it's at least decent even if not great.

>> No.53132428

>>53131579
>And then He gave up after one try
He gave you autonomy on His Imperium and lend you forces made of His flesh so you could recover your estranged brothers, and this is how you pay Him? Look at a mirror, in your pursuit of knowledge you forgot your own humanity.
Is that why you broadcast your presence all over the sector? So the others won't mistake you from a xenos.

>> No.53132442

>>53131283
>Who elected you as my father?!
>>53131440
>>53131523
My battle brothers!

>> No.53132494

>>53131558
>Thinking you have any say about freeing humanity when aliens still draw breath and the Great Crusade is FAR from over.
You would be surprised on how much in common you have with your traitors.

>> No.53132496

>EC tries to be perfect
>ends up as >>53131121
Typical of all who would pursue the impossible, rather than delight in the journey to it.

>> No.53132499

>>53132442
>Being this cucked by a false god

>> No.53132526

>>53132494
I love how the picture representing all of humanity is a very surprised yet disdainful spacerussian rather than something like pic related.

>> No.53132530

>>53132428
He gave Father Mars autonomy. Not the rest of us. His flesh is no stronger than many others, and few in number. Look at your beloved Emperor's kin, his Sons and theirs. Can you truly say you see humanity uncorrupted there? No matter, for source-flesh matters not for those on the Quest for Knowledge. He paid us nothing for our allegiance, and should not expect any better in return.

>> No.53132553

>>53132499
>implying the Emperor is any kind of god, false or otherwise
*BLAM* NONCOMPLIANCE

>> No.53132554

>>53132499
>Caring about whether or not the saviour of mankind is a man or a god.
Non-compliants are still traitors to the unity of mankind
>>53132526
>Some space russian
Oh my sweet summer child.

>> No.53132560

Is this MGS posting? If so, could you stop? It's utterly nonsensical to the rest of us.

>> No.53132585

Y'all need Dark Mechanicus fuckers

>> No.53132612

>>53132530
>Can you truly say you see humanity uncorrupted there?
I can only see the bulwark against the Terror. I see the Defenders of Humanity.

>> No.53132616

>>53132428
I always imagine that's roughly what the Men of Iron looked like. I like to think of them as more alien looking that just 50's style robots.

>> No.53132620

>>53132554
>Oh my sweet summer child.
...Go on.

>> No.53132647

>>53131440
>Mankind had 30000+ years to better itself, but the moment warp travel was shut off, they were helpess against the horrors of the galaxy, and all their technology proved insufficient and was lost.
You take that back right now, or I will come over there and declare an Honor War on your ass!

>> No.53132649

>>53132554
>>53132553
Not only he wants to be a god but he stole his power from the true gods you blind loyalists!

>> No.53132658

I want to post them again.
The vorax for the praevian are on the way along with the achea-bots that'll just meaner alongside everyone else

>> No.53132666

>>53132620
Back in the day he used to be a cool normie guy with balls of adamantium.

>> No.53132675

>>53132658
>make one wrong move and the volkite charger gets it

>> No.53132700

>>53132612
Really? Seems they're the ones causing most of the trouble and the Army are the ones doing most of the work. Your Emperor's peerless soldiers have a worse loyalty record than the Cybernetica. Sure, some of them make useful attack dogs, but most have suitable alternatives.

>> No.53132708

>>53132666
Oh shit.
Isn't Pius supposed to be a random nameless faceless guy? Why does he have such a pimping hat?

>> No.53132728

>>53132647
That's right my boy, now pay your fucking tithe OR ELSE!
You are a protector. Commendable work, but you were only able to defend yourself and left the rest of mankind to rot. You're unfit to pursue the Quest of Knowledge.

>> No.53132767

>>53132666
Emo-fat-ass-being-saved-by-space-russian.jpg

>> No.53132795

>>53132700
>A talking toaster telling me how his flesh-puppets need lobotomizing to remain loyal to the tv remote.
Srsly, why are you all talking as if the Great Crusade was over? We still have much work to do.

>> No.53132817

>>53132612
everytime I think about changing legion this picture comes back and reminds me that I need not fancy transfers or resin custom bits, just belief in the great crusade and the emperors dream.

>> No.53132838

>>53132795
Yeah, I'm down for that. Stop arguing with the polite mortals, Reductor-me. Can I finish shelling these orgiastic idiots on the planet first?

Lobotomies are fairly helpful, though. Personally I prefer just letting them work from orbit, but each to their own.

>> No.53133035

By the way, is there a limit on how many units may be placed in Reserves?
You see, Tercios are stated to count as a single unit if held in reserves (like Dread talons), so they could be great with a Legate Commander picking the 3-units-infiltrate WT.
I was thinking that Outflanking Vanquishers would help against Flare shielded stuff, and supported by Vindicator Dracosans carrying axemen and flamer squads they would do an alright pincer maneuvre.
And then you add Malcador Infernus and Russes as an anvil, or longrifle infantry in Dedicated Forts with Artillery and Rapier support...
I don't know, it could be fun.
Or the 2+/3++ Legate Commander picking EW as his trait and chopping a multiwound HQ's head with a Paragon Blade and Machinator array...
Could make up the fact you can only bring up to 6 plasma rifles in a full force.

>> No.53133108

>>53132658
>awful bases
>THICC
>chalky white
>no highlights
>flat
>no white plasma pistol casing

>> No.53133109

>>53132675
YAMETEEEE

>> No.53133362

Latest version of my Custodes force, who apparently have a whole shitload of traitors they need to execute, according to this thread...


Title (formal): Legio Custodes conclave Lex Talionis
Banner Imperialis: Executioners of the Imperial Household
Cognomen (informal): Ruina Regum ('The Fall of Kings'), The Golden Axe, The Emperor's Headsmen

HQ

- Shield-Captain w/ Paragon Spear, Digital Lasers: 220 points - Prefect Theseus

- Sisters of Silence Excruciatus Cadre w/ Execution Blade, Charnabal Sabres: 130 points - 'The Hangman's Daughters'

ELITES

- 5 Hetaeron Guard: 350 points - 'The Arbiters'

- 3 Aquilon Terminators w/ Infernus Firepike: 240 - 'Squad Barrus' (elephant)

- Contemptor-Achillus w/ Dreadspear: 240 points - Moritoi Prefectus Pirithous

TROOPS

- 5 Sentinel Guard: 310 points - 'Squad Gabalus' (gibbet)

- 5 Custodian Guard w/ Vexilla & Sentinel Warblade: 285 points

- 5 Custodian Guard: 275 points

- 5 Custodian Guard w/ Vexilla & Sentinel Warblade: 285 points

- 5 Custodian Guard: 275 points

HEAVY SUPPORT

- Contemptor-Galatus: 250 points

TOTAL

- 2,860 points

leaving me 140 points to play around with, adding wargear, or +1 Terminator.

>> No.53133479

>>53133362
Is everything walking, or are there a load of teleport transponders scattered about that you haven't listed for brevity?

>> No.53133488

>>53133362
Only thing I'd add is some power axes to avoid getting tarpitted by AP2 units.

And maybe a basic unit of bolter Sisters for objective holding.

>> No.53133762

>>53132728
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class among the Knight Cadets, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Ael-dari, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in night warfare and I’m the top baron in the entire exalted court. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with glorious honor the likes of which has never been seen before in this Imperium, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Servitornet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of freeblades across the Segmentum and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my Reaper Chainsword. Not only am I extensively trained in giant robot combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Imperial Knights Codex and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

>> No.53134126

>>53133479
Everything is walking, though the 'spare points' I have set aside are specifically for things like Transponders, or other gear that would be useful depending on the circumstances of the game and what I'm facing.

>>53133488
I'm thinking of putting some AP2 weapons in with my Hetaeron (still crossing my fingers for a weapons pack, so that I can make them largely unique with their weapons). And maybe some Adrathic or Pythrite spears in with my 5-man Custodes squads.

As for the Sisters, I'd always planned to include a squad of 10, or two of 5, until I was reminded that you need a Sisters HQ if you want to take Sisters units. And at that point I'd already fit them nicely into my army's background that I wasn't going to drop them entirely.


Since the only shit I have put together right now is 10 Custodian Guard, with the Sentinel Guard up next on the assembly line (between them and the Vexilla, I'll have 15 spears to choose from, for 8 Custodians), I have plenty of time to figure out exactly what I'm going to put on the Elites and HQ's.

>> No.53134426

>>53133035
>gunaxe

I want one.

>> No.53134475

>>53133762
>Tracing his IP not his astropath
>Knight Cadets not Squires
>No mention of Jokaero warfare

2/10 apply yourself

>> No.53134480

>>53134426
Of course you do.

>> No.53134566

>>53134480
>Plastic/Affordable Solar Auxilia never

;__;

>> No.53134616

>>53134566
Surely there must be some fantasy kit or another that could work reasonably well with tempestus scions, right?!

>> No.53134706

>>53134616
Eisenkern stormtroopers work well if you give them volkite upgrades, but they're non-gw and therefore Haram if the only place to play is at a store

>> No.53134756

I need a power axe or two for my Custodes... where to look? Which are you guys's favorite 3rd party vendors?

>> No.53134829

Is the Sicaran viable as an army's only anti-air?

>> No.53135060

>>53134756
Just buy the Sanguinary Guard kit or the weapon bits from it.
Two gorgeous axes, three nice swords and a perfect fist.

>> No.53135089

>>53134829
Depends on the point level, but in general I'd not rely on that. It's not its main job and you're wasting a lot of potential by having it perform a job it's not good at.

>> No.53135383

>>53134829
If you need AA, you should definitely find some proper AA. A Sicaran does AA like a Predator Destructor does AT: just because it can doesn't mean it should.

>> No.53135436

what do you think the lear looked like and where they their own species or slaanesh daemons?

>> No.53135537

>>53135436
IIRC, there are some implications that the Sslyth are, or are at least related to, the Lear.

>> No.53135640

>>53135436
The Laer were an alien race, not a type of daemon. They had been encountered by the Imperium on numerous occasions before, and were at one point considered as possible vassals. Unfortunately, their culture was big on worshipping the Dark Prince. I've always pictured them vaguely like the DEldar mercenary race, the Sslyth, but with bug heads, body mods galore, and no two looking exactly alike..

>> No.53135681

>>53135537
hmm a subspecies perhaps good thinking anon
>>53135640
yeah the EC actually derived a lot from them even fulgrim looks alot like them in demon form

>> No.53135729

I 'm having serious difficulty deciding between starting a Mechanicum or Auxillia army, I just love both their aesthetics so much. Any advice on their relative strengths and weaknesses to each other? What would be a good few units/models to start collecting for them?

>> No.53135844

>>53135681
They certainly had an effect. Because they had been carrying out a massive ritual orgy to Slaanesh at the time Fulgrim finally took the capital, him and all of his Marines were subtly influenced by Slaanesh and corrupted. Because of the Laer's constant drive for perfection, Fulgrim and those affected within the EC sought to imitate the Laer, reasoning that it was perfectly normal to imitate them.

>> No.53136043

>>53135729
Which part of the Mechanicum appeals to you? They're really very different from each other, and while they used to all use the Triaros transport, you now have the option of the Macroarid Explorator or, in some cases, the Arvus Lighter.

Meanwhile, Solar Auxilia are pretty uniform. You'd better like Dracosans.

I think it's more fun to play against and look at Solar Auxilia than Secutarii, but if you're into Cybernetica then it's a tough call. They're so very different. Do both!

>> No.53136254

>>53136043
>Which part of the Mechanicum appeals to you?
I'm a sucker for giant robots. I love the look of the thallax, the thanatar, and I'd like to have some kinda knight to center-piece them. Inversely, the look of the Auxillia command squad seems too appealing not to get and paint up regardless, and there's something about 40 die-hard badasses with poweraxes that makes me feel all fuzzy inside.

Is there any playstyle for either that seems fun (is there a playstyle the community thinks is WAACy)? I've got like 1.5 people I could play with so I'm lookin mostly for a fluffy/interesting army.

>Do both!
were it so easy...

>> No.53136343

>>53136254
>good playstyles
Boopchanicum is really tricky, because it sits right on the balance of being very fun to play with/against or being a total bullshit shitstorm no one ever likes. But that's true for Mechanicum as a whole, Secutarii, Reductor, really anything is only as cool or douchey as you make it.

Honestly, it's the same deal with SA.
>Storm Squad and general bodyspam=fuckin awesome
whereas
>5 flare shield demolisher dracosans and a bunch of inferni=bad
So choose wisely.

>> No.53136359

How would you do a Blood Angels/SoH joint force?

I want to represent Horus and Sanguinius being bros before that unsightly "chaos" incident.

Maybe even with some talons of the emperor mixed in for his two favorite sons.

>> No.53136386

>>53136359
orphans of betrayal SoH in Luna Wolves colours with BA allies assigned as loyalist 'minders'

>> No.53136452

>>53136343
>>5 flare shield demolisher dracosans and a bunch of inferni=bad
Awww. It's too expenssive anyway.

>> No.53136508

>>53136254
Cybernetica armies are "extreme" in the same way as an all-jetbike or all-tank army; a good chunk of a normal army will be pretty useless against them, especially if you're taking 3+ thanatars and a couple of knights. In other words, try to take some human-like units (Thralls) alongside midsized robots (e.g. Castellax) and a limited number of the really big things.

People get salty if you take multiple Vulturaxes or Krios Venators too. With Solar Auxilia, it's the Malcador Infernus that has that effect. Even more so, actually, because some people will take issue with taking even a single one (I think one's fine, personally, but stop there).

>> No.53136613

>>53136508
>people get mad at multiple krios venators
That's a joke, right? Aside from effectively front AV14, the gun is 4 godamn lascannons tied together. Like seriously nogger everyone else can take twin-linked S9 AP1 cannons for cheaper

>> No.53136646

>>53136613
I may have confused it with the normal Krios. One of the two.

>> No.53136697

>>53136613
But what else can take squadrons of four-shot ORDNANCE lascannons with av14 fronts that are scoring? They're certainly no malcador infernus, but for a general-purpose tank they're pretty good, and miles better than a predator

>> No.53136764

>>53136359
>Blood Angels
>Luna Wolves
Truly the Emperor's finest

Please do this and make sure you bring those olive skinned girls with white hair as well

I'm gonna have to do this now to anon, damn/thank you for making my list of shit to do even bigger

>> No.53136868

>>53132708
because it was part of the uniform of some imperial army regiments.

>> No.53137260

why are you a loyalist? and why aren't you one of fulgrims sons?

>> No.53137275

>>53136613
>the gun is 4 godamn lascannons tied together
I wish Predators could get 4 lascannons tied together. Oh well, I suppose Laser Destroyer Vindicators is where it's at? Similar stats, less armour but can get Machine Spirit and the newest stats for the Laser destroyer array (Crusade Imperialis 2016) says it's 48" range.
Mechanicumfags BTFO'd

>> No.53137355

>>53137260
Because we are supposed to be the EMPEROR'S Children, you traitorous scum.

>> No.53137364

>>53137260
Because I'm not perfect.

>> No.53137391

>>53137355
Saul you are the traitor to lord fulgrim! we will become perfect and you will be left with your imperfect Emporer loyalist!

>> No.53137393

I'm well aware that my preferred colors are already on the Emperor's Children to an extent, but would I be able to get away with another Legion wearing Purple with light blue highlights?

>> No.53137480

>>53136359
>Special RoW for Luna Wolves and Blood Angels
>Can take a second age of darkness detachment as an ally
>Ally must either be Blood Angels if primary is Luna Wolves or vice versa
>Must take Sanguinius and Horus is both respective LoW slots

>> No.53137652

n00b here. Can an Outrider squad with 6 models, including a sergeant, take two power weapons or three? It's clearly two if you don't have a sergeant but I'm not sure what happens when you do take him.

>> No.53137660

>>53137391
You would like to check your orthography first, my erstwhile brother :^)
Such is the folly of traitors.

>> No.53137736

>>53137260
Because i am more perfect than faggot third legion.

>> No.53137772

>>53137393
No.

>> No.53137784

>>53137660
u-uh no u

>>53137736
>blue
purple is best girl

>> No.53138095

>>53136043
Hahahaha they finally got a way to start slinging Arvus Lighter kits.

>> No.53138135

>>53137393
>Purple with light blue highlights
Perfectly acceptable for the Alpha Legion. Extermination says they've been known to wear every colour under the sun and in Legion their armour is described as purple.

>> No.53138242

>>53137480
Alright Forgeworld, this would get me to buy in hard on Blood Angels, just make this possible.

>> No.53138522

>>53137480
>>53136764
I would kill to do Luna Wolves rather than SoH, but their transfer sheet has been sold out since forever, and I'd miss out on all of the cool models that have the SoH eye molded onto them.

Either way I think the sea-green would contrast nicely with the blood-red.

>> No.53138553

>>53137480
If only :I

>> No.53138627

>>53138553
>And play regicide to our hearts' content
I see what you did there BL.

>> No.53138784

Where the hell did all the traitor EC pop up from? I leave to sleep, take an exam, and paint up more Tartaros termies and suddenly the thread is chock full of coke fiends.

>> No.53138922

Reminder that the loyalty of all Legionnaires will be judged and found wanting

>> No.53139031

>>53138922
There are none more loyal than we.

>> No.53139053

>>53138922

ADB please write about traitor custodes.

>> No.53139134

>>53137784
100% Plebeian.

>> No.53139194

>>53139053

>> No.53139304

>>53134616
You could kitbash perry axe dudes as dark age axemen.

>> No.53139389

>>53139053
ADB will write last HH novel about his OC Guardian Cold Adamant who was betrayed by douchebag Emperor but found his garem of daemonette, chaos eldar and chaos sister of silence and killed Emperor and Ollanius Pious. Later ADB will be ranting on forums that his characters are totally serious and without any waifus.

>> No.53139569

>>53133108
B8

Here's your (You)

>> No.53139590

>>53138922
>Reminder that Cuckstodes don't have grav-Rhinos. Or Terminators.

>> No.53139685

>>53139590
>what is a Aquilon
>what is a Coronus

>> No.53139716

>>53139685
>A Coronus being a Grav-Rhino
PRIVATE JOKER, ARE YOU TRYING TO OFFEND ME?!

>> No.53139786

>>53139716

>> No.53139805

Is there any way Siggy will not die as a result of his duel will Abby in the next Black legion book?

I don't really think there's a good way to write Siggy losing.

>> No.53139809

Why did they have to make Boxnoughts so fucking weak? For a couple of more points you can get it's ugly sister who has shielding and a bitchen mechanic.

I like the aesthetics so much but they gimp my army even with molecular acid rounds.

>> No.53139823

>>53139685
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my RHINOS.

>> No.53139824

>>53139809
The contemptor looks so much better and is so much more fun to pose than a regular Dread.

>> No.53139844

>>53139590
Nor Custodian Raiders....
BUT WAIT FOR HH14 ;^^^)

>> No.53139879

>>53139823
>>53139844
>not having a flare shield
>not being a hover vehicle
Can they really even call themselves supersoldier transports?

>> No.53139916

>>53139879
>Looking like Eldar faggy hover tanks instead of blocky tonks of real Imperial auramite
Can yours even call themselves human transports?

>> No.53139972

>>53139805
Wasn't Abaddon primarch-tier by that point from all the Chaos juice? Sigismund just wasn't good enough.

>> No.53140065

>>53130880
Anon were you dropped on your head as a child or are you just getting really in to that whole traitors-are-dumb thing? Those're loyalist EC standing on top of a wrecked SoH rhino.

>> No.53140126

Did marines generally swap out perfectly functional MkIII for MkIV after the latter was issued or was the switch mainly made when their existing suit was damaged?

>> No.53140133

So wait if Shadrak Meduson was impersonated by Alpharius in that Seventh Serpent novella or whatever, does that mean that the attack on Bodt is implied to have helped the Alpha Legion with whatever they're doing with the Primarch Project data/material?

Or did the attack on Bodt precede that?

>> No.53140155

>>53140133
Meduson didn't destroy Bodt you tard, Autek Mor did it

>> No.53140159

>>53137355
>our boy Tarvitz mentioned

F

>> No.53140163

>>53140133
>the Alpha Legion with whatever they're doing with the Primarch Project data/material?

They are doing nothing with it, only Omegon knows about it as all personnel involved was lost in the mission and Alpharius is dead. So the AL either have a bunch of NuMarines hidden and they never use them OR Alpharius Omegon returned or destroyed the information.

>> No.53140166

>>53140155
All Iron Hands characters are interchangeable, only varying slightly in the amount of autism they express

>> No.53140218

>>53140163
Or we're about to find out he hid it on Mars and it doesn't get any use until about 10,000 years later...

>> No.53140225

>>53130882
What bitz were used for the chest, tabard, and cloak? I don't like the ankle length robe look that the 40K DA veterans have but I love the tabards. I can't find any them outside the BT upgrade box.

>> No.53140226

>>53139916
Not that guy, but the thing I don't like about the hover-rhinos is the anti-grav 'funnels'.

>> No.53140260

>>53140126
Kinda sorta. For the most part, Legions were actively using MkIIs up to that point. MkIIIs were developed, and requisitioned, as heavy duty/assault suits. They had better frontal protection, but as a result were also slower than other suits. As a result, Legions that value such traits have tons of MkIIIs (i.e. IW, IH, IF, SW), while others only got a few and used them for specialty purposes like weapon squads or breachers (i.e. RG, EC, WS). Unlike MkIII, MkIV was meant to be a general-use type of suit, so it was meant to replace the older MkII entirely as the new base-line.

But then Horus went and got corrupted on Davin and had the majority of the MkIV production lines ear-marked for his best friends, and not the Loyalist legions.

>> No.53140278

>>53140159
>F

>> No.53140303

>>53140163
They're pretty distinct desu. Meduson mostly leads shattered legions in guerilla attempts, whereas Mor leads the craziest parts of the Iron Hands. It's like the French Resistance vs The Polish divisions that kept on fighting in WW2 after Poland capitulated for the Brits

>> No.53140351

>>53140303
>>53140155
Apologies, it just seemed like they were hinting at something there if one of them supposedly recovered primarch material from Bodt and the Alpha Legion already had that material because lol ya fucked up Corax, plus Iron Hands characters

>> No.53140386

>>53140225
Thats the DV chaplain with a DA head and a bolt pistol.

>> No.53140421

>>53140163
Its likely Omegeon can't counter act the demon blood contamination or use the primarch material without the emperor's research. Heretek corruption is notoriously difficult to remove from machines.

>> No.53140433

>>53140421
He gave the corrupted version to fabius bile /horus, he still has the original according to the epilogue.

>> No.53140472

>>53140218
Maybe Eskrador DID happen but it wasnt a battle, just a meeting and Alpharius Omegon gave the project to Rawbooty which led to the numarines and was then put on hold when Fulgrim shanked him.

>> No.53140510

>>53140433
Sorry its been awhile since I read deliverance post. Was he able to acquire the full research or just the primarch too?

>> No.53140676

>>53123195
Fuck you and fuck that cancerous bullshit of an answer.

>> No.53140743

>>53140676
lol anon are you buttmad that you don't know how his game ended :^) kekekeke

>> No.53140779

>>53140743
Actually? No. I just don't like the 30k channel. The faggot who runs the channel does one batrep a month. He recently started a new PPV youtube channel that has more batreps. And that is fucking retarded.

>> No.53141077

>>53140779
what's retarded about it? you get free content...

>> No.53141098

Ultranewfaggot here (literally, I don't even know jack shit about how tabletop is played, is this shit even tabletop?).
As of late the Orks have caught my attention, I love their lore and designs, and I also like painting, so I've been thinking about buying some, I'm a seasoned buyfag when it comes to anime figures like nendos and other more pricey stuff (50,000 yen kind of pricey).
Is this hard to get into? I've heard people saying it's a really expensive hobby to get into, how expensive really? Like do I really need to buy 500 bucks models? Where do you buy them? do I stick with GW's official site? or are Amazon or eBay better?
Also when people play WH40k do they buy models of several factions or just stick to one? Because I couldn't give less of a shit about any other but Orks, maybe something that has to do with Khorne, dunno, I just love fucking shit up man.

Apologies if this is the wrong thread to ask, I hail from /v/.

>> No.53141105

>>53132658
They look like shit.

>> No.53141158

Ok, I have 30 MKIV, 10 MKIII, and 10 MKII Marines ready to build. Should I just mix armor marks into a squad as whole Marines, keep them in individual squads, or mix the parts 100% through the force? I'm not really sure what to do and I'm worried about it looking weirdly overdone or out of place. I want them to look how they would in the middle of the Heresy.

>> No.53141164

>>53141098
new edition of the 40k game very soon, google 'warhammer community' for all your info.

>> No.53141197

>>53141158
Mix the MkII/III and keep the MkIV to themselves IF you are mixing them on an individual marine
Otherwise, if by 'mixed units' you mean a MkII marine with some MkIV marines, thats kosher

>> No.53141244

>>53141098
Google warhammer 40000 . Com it's meant to introduce new players

>> No.53141255

>>53141158
I like to keep each squad sticking to one type of armor. It makes it easier to tell them apart on the field and gives them a nice, cohesive look.
You could mix armor types within a squad and even on a model, especially once the heresy progresses, but it rarely looks good.

>> No.53141840

Why are marines portrayed in the fluff as badass demigod supermen when they're only marginally better than standard human soldiers on the tabletop?

>> No.53141853

>>53137652
Depends on the exact wording of the rule.

Lets say a squad has a sarge and 5 mooks (6 models total) and the rule says 'one in three models may take a power weapon' and another says 'the sarge may take a power weapon', then you can have 3 power weapons in the squad, one on the sarge and two mooks get one too.

If the rules were to say 'one in three mooks may take a power weapon' and the other says 'the sarge may take a power weapon', then you can only have two in the squad unless you add another mook.

>> No.53141903

>>53141840
because fluff doesn't equal crunch you newfag

>> No.53142110

>>53141903
I've always wondered why only the Marines and the Custodes get to benefit from that in 30k. Militia and Auxilia tanks have tiny ranges because game, Admech, and Militia never gets their armies massively increased in fluff discussions because they have the numbers to bog down the movie marines, but somehow Ceramite becomes a General Products Hull and that WB tactical I painted to test the scheme can take apart an entire War Covenant with a fork. I thought they were supposed to be worse in 30k because there's three times as many of them and they fight like proper armies to an extent?

>> No.53142313

>>53142110
I don't really understand what you are saying other than the first and last sentences but marines are the company poster boys, the focus of the Horus Heresy and the most popular army so they will obviously be getting a lot of support.

Custodes are marines+, while they may not have the same numbers of fans their power level is pretty well established.

Admech can be a very powerful army without too much effort and are quite well represented from shitty pleb soldiers all the way up to massive war machines and super powered magos.

Auxilia can also produce a good army and while they have a limited list potential they have some nice units. They have to be weaker than marines because according to the fluff they are and it wouldn't make sense to have an army of regular guys being super strong in space marines: the game.

Militia are basically a fluff army and are fairly unpopular at that, they shouldn't really be considered in power level arguments. They also have nice units and their provenances can make a nice themed army but these are the guys who spent the entire crusade and heresy being conquered and destroyed buy marine armies. I can't remember a single militia list being posted here or an pictures of models.

>> No.53142316

>>53141903
Why shouldn't crunch power levels be roughly accurate to the fluff?

>> No.53142366

>>53142316
It would be nice if things did accurately match but it's the limitations of the system. You would either have to make humans weaker so every militia and auxilia player has to buy hundreds of models or marines get stronger and every marine player owns about ten models.

Primarchs all become S:D T:10 gargantuan creatures on a 40mm base.

To keep the game manageable things had to be sacrificed, I am glad that they chose to sacrifice accurate fluff power levels rather than forcing players to roll hundreds of dice every turn or own few models.

>> No.53142416

>>53142366
It seems weird then that fluff built around crunch doesn't try to reflect it. The rules come first. If marines aren't absurd on the table why write them to be unstoppable rapemachines?

>> No.53142450

>>53142416
I'm not too familiar with the early fluff but I've heard that marines in Rogue Trader and 2e were more like strong guys wearing power armour so their stats made a bit more sense as being slightly better than regular humans. From 3e onward marines got a boost to become highly augmented transhumans while it would have been too much work to change the rules as they would have had to change the stats of everything to make sure it all made sense.

>> No.53142451

eye of horus descended into literal garbage - spends 5mins chatting shit about bomb collars in movies, doesn't even know about the 30k militia rules for discipline collars.. fml

and it's pronounced GY-RINX not GRINKS you illiterate aussie fuckbags

>> No.53142996

>>53139569
No it's objective criticism. Highlight in a clear metallic like Runefang. You've posted it over multiple threads like you want someone to jerk you off over it. All of that listed should prompt you to improve your painting, please do.

>> No.53143257

>>53142110
>incoherent rambling
What are you trying to say?

>> No.53143282

>>53143257
>that WB tactical I painted
I wouldn't worry too much, he's obviously retarded.

>> No.53143368

>>53142451
Why would knowing about Militia bomb collars be important? It's not like anyone who wants morale buffs can't just get flat out Fearless or versions thereof with Alchem-jackers and stuff.

>> No.53143381

Say, what's the worst Rite of War?

Legion specific or generic, what's the worst thing it there?

also can you use ANY FOC, like the leviathan or LoW one, with a RoW?

>> No.53143411

>>53143381
No rites with alternative Force Orgs.

Hammerfall Strikeforce or Fury of the Ancients for worst, Crimson King for best

>> No.53143416

>>53143381
RoW cannot be used with alternative FOC and alternative FOC are opponents agreement only.

As for the most unnecessary RoW, it's most likely 'Brethren of Iron'. Lots of easier ways to include Castellax.

>> No.53143436

>>53143381
Headhunter Leviathal. Having to take Headhunters as your compulsory troop choices is painful at best but if you don't have the first turn then you are fucked

>> No.53143451

>>53143368
there's no way you're genuinely this stupid

>> No.53143462

>>53143436
Even with how shitty banestrike ammo is, there could almost be a point to that if it wasn't in a game where most units are at least Ld 9 thanks to their sergeant or just vehicles which ignore leadership checks. As things are though the false flags rule might as well not be there.

>> No.53143478

>>53143451
Well no context was given, so I have no idea why it was important at all. Did he say they should be a thing in 30k or something?

>> No.53143626

>>53143381
Dark Brethren (outside of facing TS) and Headhunter Leviathal as far as legion-secific RoWs go; Brethren of Iron and Fury of the Ancients on the generic RoW front. All of them offer pointless boni at the cost of awful drawbacks and/or stupid limitations.

>> No.53143648

>>53131891
I am a Son of Horus! Not some weak rabid creature of the VIII! It matters not that you seek your perfection. That you have made such a noble ideal so perverse makes all of this far worse. It is a warning written on your mutated flesh. Do not trust the works of the warp. It will make all that you are a twisted puppet on hideous strings.

>> No.53143659

>>53143381
Any that restricts you to only one heavy support slot.

>> No.53143688

>>53132442
The Emperor made us with one duty in mind. To slay the horrors of the old night and save our species. Well, we owe the old man so much as to fulfil our duties and cast down all tyrants.

>> No.53143717

>>53132494
The power of the Alien is broken, shattered and weak. Easy prey for us after our tyrant-slaying is done. A new Crusade comes brother, one that shall be done right, with the ideals of a truly free humanity, protected and nurtured by the Legions not dominated by some gold plated tyrant, at its fore. We will save our species, but we cannot have victory while the tyrant sits on his throne.

>> No.53144062

>>53136359
You can. I have a joint Iron Warriors/Ultramarines task force.

>> No.53144377

>Fantasy Greatswords with scion/skitarii/etc heads as axe Velatarii or cc-outfited grenadiers
>Great cannon as LD Rapier
What else could i put together? everyones selling their empire/brets for pennies

>> No.53144629

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/09/new-warhammer-40000-characters-may9gw-homepage-post-4/

Well hhg?

>> No.53144696

>>53144629
Shit.

>> No.53144697

>>53144629
Not bad, I like the changes

>> No.53144704

>>53144629
disgusting

>> No.53144714

>>53144629
I like it. I no longer have to hide my characters at the ass end of a unit.

>> No.53144761

>>53144629
>Broadly, this worked pretty well, but there was a tendency in more competitive games to see multiple Characters pooled into a single unit, resulting in an all-conquering unkillable mega-unit with a smorgasbord of special rules, a few psychic powers for good measure
>So here’s a big thing – Characters can’t join units anymore
>Instead, you’ll tend to find that a lot of Characters will have an ability that affects nearby units with a certain Keyword within a radius of effect.
>To counter the fact that these Characters cannot join units and “hide” from enemy fire, there is a rule in the Shooting phase that means you can’t target a Character unless they are the closest enemy model.

This doesn't really change anything though? characters can still apply their rules to units, multiple units now, and they also cannot be shot st.

>> No.53144805

>>53144629
>>53144761
In fact this makes regular techmarines and apothecaries better. I would wonder what would happen with rad grenades, but 8E won't arrive to HH within the year, so who cares.

>> No.53144848

>>53144805
I'm going to review 8th ed but with what rules we have seen so far I think i'll just continue with 7e.

>> No.53144884

>>53144848
You see, I don't have access to Acid AP2 Heavy Bolters, and I'd like lightning claws to be a valid option for HQs, so I'm kind of interested in 8E.

>> No.53144955

>>53144629
Ah, my Archmagos can take it and my Magos Reductor is hiding behind a tank anyway. Going to fuck over my Word Bearers massively, though. I was kinda planning a mini Infernal Tetrad with one of each Herald leading a unit of Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Beasts of Nurgle or Screamers of Tzeench respectively as allies to my Word Bearers Tactical line/Ashen Circle and Gal Vorbak deepstrike force list.

Also sad that my Magos Dominus in 40k can't join Skitarii units anymore - he didn't use them for cover, he took the hits instead.

>> No.53145007

>>53138242
>>53138553
>>53137480
>>53138522
Would we just take the best parts of Day of Revelation and Orbital Assault then? Basically this RoW would be the alpha strike to end all alpha strikes

>I want this very badly now

>> No.53145013

>>53144629
Sounds good. Mechanically there's no difference from a character standing in the middle of a squad unable to be shot, and a character standing in the middle of a squad (but not officially attached) unable to be shot (because the squad surrounding him will always be closer to the enemy). And anything that cuts down on deathstars is good.

Just so long as you can still put a character and a squad into a transport. If you need a separate rhino to carry a character by themselves with nine empty seats then that's a bit silly.

>> No.53145051

>>53144629
I like the idea, but how does that remove deathstars? I can still plop down a bunch of heroes next to a unit.
I guess I can't use Look out, Sir! to bounce wounds around, but otherwise it's the same.

>> No.53145083

>>53144955
Why can't you do that anymore? Your heralds can still chill with the other dudes?

>> No.53145105

>>53144955
The Heralds will now be with many squad. And the Dominus can still take the hits if he's at the forefront of the squad.

>> No.53145113

>>53145013
AoS transport rules are straightforward, just stuff in guys until the cap is reached, basically. Doesn't matter how many units that means.

>> No.53145115

So back on the massive book of things I'll never do is the Genetor Titan. I do really want to model a bio-weapon that fires something like The Cloud from Fallout, though. Malcador Infernus Krios chassis edition? Can we even take those? Maybe some kind of Acheron gun replacement, or a counts-as Saturnyne Lascutter or Mori-Quake cannon. Been reading about the really old Titan fluff, 1d4chan claims there was a discontinued Imperator with an aircraft carrier back, but I can't find it anywhere.

... This is what happens when people give me too much free time. I get one weekend away and I come back with another stupid idea.

>> No.53145140

>>53145051
Seconded. How does this invalidates deathstars? If anything, with the improved transport rules now they'll be even worse

>> No.53145184

>>53145083
>>53145105

Fair point, and if psychic powers remain much the same I might be able to continue the Cursed Earth buffing. The idea is that the Tzeench herald and Zardu's Gal Vorbak stick behind the lesser Daemon screens and take their time making more Heralds and buffing the invulns of everyone to stop them being imploded by Bolters. No idea what to take for Compulsory Troops, although I guess 40 Zealot or S5 Tacticals isn't exactly bad.

>> No.53145247

>>53145051
>>53145140
I think they were trying to get rid of stacking special rules, since now it sounds like characters buff all units of a certain, specific type within a certain area this cannot be done unless you want to load up on those units.

For example you now cannot have a unit of guys with three attached characters that separately provide fearless, FNP and furious charge. Of course you can still get units of tough guys but they now cannot be buffed to the stratosphere by attached characters.

I am imagining more important or expensive characters will have more universal buffs, for example Sigismund might provide all templars within 6 inches +1 charge range while Dorn might provide all Imperial Fists within 6 inches Fearless or whatever.

>> No.53145800

>>53130736
Yay or nay for Iron Warriors Auxilia?

>> No.53145862

>>53145800
Looks pretty good, they look more like Nurgle cultists but they suit Iron Warriors quite nicely.

>> No.53145996

>>53145800
If you can afford it, Dkok models would be cool. Alchem jackers and warrior elite to make em immovable. Use their engineer models w/shotguns for recon squads, grenadiers for grenadiers, heck even the Gorgon transport suits them.

>> No.53146092

>>53145996
>>53145862
>>53145800
anyone know of any tribal/african heroic scale miniatures? I am toying with a militia force which is basically Zulus with guns. I'm thinking Feral Warriors and Alchem-Jackers, might use some ork moels to represent ogryns and have a nigger rigged Stormhammer as a centre piece.

>> No.53146448

>>53144761
you're pretty dumb

>> No.53146464

>>53144848
good luck playing alone

>> No.53146482

>>53145140
so brainless... they clearly explain that it's keyword based like AoS and still the dumb masses (you) don't get it.
No wonder there's so many rules issues, you guys are retarded

>> No.53146497

What would you anons say are some of the most unappreciated armies in 30k? Legions or otherwise.

>> No.53146524

>>53146482
>they clearly explain that it's keyword based like AoS and
I DON'T PLAY AGE OF SHIT FANTASY, DUMB.
And I'm not grabbing that book even if you forcefully downloaded it to my pc.

>> No.53146589

>>53146497
We don't see enough Militia. You can do so many things with them, and most don't even touch 'em. I just use them for more things to turn into Genetor cannon fodder and glorious Spawn of tarpitty fast goodness. I use them to hold down units that can butcher my Levy blobs until they can get there, which does mean I've given the tarpits a tarpit. I may like Fearless cannon fodder a little much.

As for Legions, we need more Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard. I guess people don't like being smashed to bits in the second battle, which is fair enough, but they're some of the better Legions for theme and interesting paint schemes with tints and such.

>> No.53146718

>>53146497
Lorewise, Iron Warriors. That's kind of their bitter shtick

>> No.53146866

>>53146497
The raven guard and the word bearers are, if not actually looked down on, kind of pitied by a lot of the community.

>> No.53147024

>>53146866
Nobody pities the Word Bearers.

>> No.53147060

>>53147024
Yeah, they just think we suck. No matter, because we actually did the empire-building and world-complying thing right, so suck it, Emprah's Beatsticks.

>> No.53147157

>>53146589
I think Militia are really cool, but I have the same problem with them as I do Guard, which is a lack of tolerance for assembling and painting that many models.

>> No.53147162

>>53146497
Iron Hands

>> No.53147213

>>53147162
Are they the only legion who haven't starred in a novel? When they do show up they're always the B plot.

>> No.53147266

>>53147213
Only as side characters usually. Some short stories here and there. It's a shame.

>> No.53147321

>>53147060
Y'know, if they made the reason Monarchia happened because it was the dozenth time Malcador or the Emperor told him to cut that shit out, it would have made slightly more sense. But it's ADB, so the Emperor has to be a cunt.

>> No.53147344

>>53147266
Kind of a lame Primarch too. All Iron Hands of the Iron Hands who has iron hands did in the series was lose two fights then die.

>> No.53147419

>>53147213
Damnation Of Pythos, and most shattered legion stories are principally about them as well.

>> No.53147466

Does Nomus Rhy'Tan count as a Chaplain for the Salamanders' Awakening Fire RoW?

>> No.53147481

>Who is Reece, and why should I care?

>Reece helps runs some of the biggest independent Warhammer 40,000 events in the world, including the Las Vegas Open and the recently announced Southern California Open. Like Frankie, he’s also been part of the playtest team for the new edition of Warhammer 40,000, putting in hundreds of hours to make sure this new edition will be great for all you gamers out there (Thanks Reece!).

8TH OFFICIALLY DOOMED.

>> No.53147499

>>53147321
Pretty much. I obviously like the Word Bearers, but that lore was a tad retarded even if it supported their viewpoint. Thing is, only got into them about a month ago after breezing past them a bunch after noticing how cool the models are, so I guess I have to like ADB's bullshit now.

I like to think that if I ever did a proper army of them they'd be corrupted by all the lore they had to scorch off the worlds they conquered concurrently with the rest of the Legion, so lots of Ashen Circle and such. They've realized that summoning a bunch of daemons and letting them Grey Goo the planet with warp bullshit is an extremely expedient way to fuck shit up, so you see them tearing a line through planets with an odd pattern of land, do basically nothing for a week or so then leave, and then they find there's a few hundred Heralds and their escorts in a wood somewhere steadily corrupting the place and enlarging their army. If they have to fight, it'll be with mundane forces, turned cultists and whatever daemonic reinforcements they can bring in during the battle, since they don't really stay places where there actually ARE many daemons long.

Does this sound like complete bullshit or not, I haven't ran a Legion army yet and haven't got a chance to read the WB books. What's the order to do them in?

>> No.53147584

>>53147419
We never got a proper book about the IH before Ferrus got KIA, which sucks. I'd love a book about Ferrus on Medusa. Maybe in his future primarch book hopefully.

>> No.53147612

>>53147481
>Who is Reece, and why should I care?
Reese is the father our savior John Connor sent back in time to bone Connor's mother. And, preferably, keep her alive afterwards.

>> No.53147622

>>53146464
>I have no friends, the post

>> No.53147629

>>53146524
There's no reason to get upset Autismo. Just because you don't like the rules doesn't mean that these changes aren't coming. Asking for an explanation and stuffing your fingers into your ears when someone answers you is just sad.

>> No.53147636

>>53147584
Hopefully in the Gorgon's Primarch book the Iron Hands will team up with the Iron Warriors and we get to hear more about how great Perturabo is.

>> No.53147691

>>53147636
I wonder if Perturabo and Ferrus were friends. I don't think so.

>> No.53147756

>>53147466
FW will tell you to gentleman's agree it. I myself think that LORD Chaplain Rhy'Tan is, in fact, a Chaplain.
Like Rask being a Siege Breaker

>> No.53147843

>>53147629
You didn't answer. You said "It's like AoS, how come you don't know this?"
It's like saying some rule is simmilar to the rules in the Hobbit game, if that thing happens to use rules or something.
I think the new character system to be like FW's wet dream of those little character units it loves that were previously shitty, like Krieger Medics and 30k Techmarine covens. Their only weakness was that they couldn't hide in a unit so you could shoot them to hell, and now you can't. Thus making them actually breddy good.
As for regular characters, literally what changed?
I am angry with your shitty attemt of an explanation, however. Refrain from doing that.

>> No.53147885

>>53147636
Kek
>>53147691
Probably saw him as a powerful rival, like those dumb animu characters that go and proclaim "you shall be my rival!" instead of saying "cool shit, wanna be friends?"
I mean, Vulkan disliked Ferrus' works, so it's not like the Builder Triad is tooooo fond of each other.

>> No.53147975

>>53147885
>like those dumb animu characters that go and proclaim "you shall be my rival!" instead of saying "cool shit, wanna be friends?"

>> No.53147983

>>53146497
IH and WS for Loyalists, NL and WB on the traitor front.

WS have always had strong potential, that has never been up for debate. The problem has always been the fact that painting an entire army in white is harder than it sounds, and so is affording an army centered around 8.4 million bikers. IH on the other hand are almost non-existent. Fluffwise, GW and FW have barely touched them over the years in comparison to other Legions. In terms of actual armies, I've personally never seen an IH army in over 15 years of visiting game stores, and even seeing them online is like finding a unicorn.

NL and WB are in a slightly different boat. For the NL, they've always been something of a 'specialist' army, for that niche of people that are simultaneously edgelords and skilled at free-hand painting. They're the kind of army more people probably wouldn't mind playing, but don't have the skill to pull off properly. WB on the other hand have been frequently featured in the fluff for quite some time. However, they've also never had as much attention as the SoH, EC, DG, WE, or TS, and even among Undivided armies they don't have the same level of interest as AL (sneeki breeki memes) or IW (hazard stripes and heavy armor for days). Top it off with the fact that everyone on either side can blame them for something, they're genuinely unappreciated.

>> No.53148001

Name a cuter unit

You definitely cannot

>> No.53148031

>>53147975
That was actually who I was thinking about. Do you think if Forgebreaker had been also a teleporter Ferrus would be alive?

>> No.53148060

>>53148031
Ferrus would be too stubborn to use it. I think he'd still fight Fulgrim to the bitter end.

>> No.53148081

>>53147499
We really need to collect old fluff so we can know what's always been there, and what's new in the BL series and, slightly later, the black books. I'll see what I can dig up but I don't have the CSM 3.5 codex which I think was a pretty important source.

>> No.53148103

>>53147983
>IH and WS for Loyalists
I'd say DA and WS, we have at least had some painted iron hands be posted.

>> No.53148113

>>53148060
>I think he'd still fight Fulgrim
>to the bitter end.
Stop stealing our things!! >:U

>> No.53148261

>>53148001
Magos' pets a cute.

>> No.53148314

Mein Tausend Söhne

>> No.53148371

>>53148314
More seriously, how should I color his shoulder pads?

>> No.53148428

>>53148371
Gold with white trim like the tartaros sekhmet from Inferno.

>> No.53148467

>>53148371
Rainbows.

>> No.53148486

>>53148371
With blood, cum and hairs from your balls. For sorcery purposes, obviously

>> No.53148504

>>53148314
homofürst

>> No.53148525

>>53148371
Use Inferno as an inspiration. Gold, white and turqoise can be good.

>> No.53148531

>>53148371
the colors of currywurst

>> No.53148546

>>53132658
You might like to use more white, and use a lighter gold. Like this.

>> No.53148611

>>53148546
>cherry red
Do people really think that looks good? I don't get the appeal of it at all.

>> No.53148613

>>53148546
>Have you seen this shit?
Where is diorama-anon? He hasn't posted in a while

>> No.53148619

>>53148546
retributor gold makes me so angry

so

fucking

angry

it's gaudy as shit and everywhere

no offense, your paint job is great, but that fucking retributor

>> No.53148657

>>53148611
There's no cure for you

>> No.53148690

>>53147843
>It's like saying some rule is simmilar to the rules in the Hobbit game, if that thing happens to use rules or something.
GW's LotR games are among the best they've ever written*. Well above the other flagship games and even most of the Specialist Games. Their only failing was in being a skirmish game whose players wanted Pelennor Fields and Helm's Deep all day every day.

*Provided Hobbit didn't fuck it all up.

>> No.53148745

>>53148657
That is truly gorgeous, and I didn't think anything would make that flying brick look good after seeing too many sloppily painted Stormravens.
Also, like my whale and the Titans, big planes like that work out suprisingly small.

Not I need to work out how to add a rear assault ramp to the Whalebird, since there's most of a tail in the way of where I'd put the usual Land Raider door.

>> No.53148781

>>53148081
Chaos Codex 3.5 fluff (1999):
>The Emperor was already planning to disband the [Night Lords] before the Horus Heresy made such action impossible.
>The Emperor's Children were among the units assigned to crush Horus and his rebel Chapters on Istvaan V. During a parley the legion's Primarch, Fulgrim and his highest ranking officers were corrupted by teh decadent pastimes that Horus and his Chaos worshippers offered.
New fluff spells it Isstvan, doesn't it? Also, I think older fluff has the EC on Isstvan III - I'll check after work.
>The [Thousand Sons'] sorcerers became increasingly disturbed by the degeneration of their brethren [after fleeing to the Planet of the Sorcerers] until they eventually risked undertaking the drastic Rubric of Ahriman which purged the Thousand Sons of those members that were considered 'unworthy', and which created the strangely robotic Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marines that are encountered today.
>Even before the Heresy the World Eaters were noted for their savagery and were censured by the Emperor for their use of psycho-surgery on new recruits to turn them into frothing madmen.
>In particular there seems to have been a strong mutual hatred between the Alpha Legion and the Imperial Fists as they had clashed on more than one occasion prior to the Heresy.

Nothing really different about the Black Legion, DG or IW, and no mention (!) of the Word Bearers.

>> No.53148788

>>53148611
It looks great with a matte overcoat, like that Stormbird >>53148657

>> No.53148812

>>53148781
Aww, I guess I have to roll with the new fluff and just interact the backstory with it as little as possible. Thanks, anon. The Fulgrim thing is kinda cool.

>> No.53148830

>>53148788
matt or satin?

>> No.53148846

>>53148619
It's not mine, but I know what you're getting at.

The whole idea was for retributor to be a thick bright base and flat, but the downside is that it's thick, bright and flat!

>> No.53149015

>>53148081
>We really need to collect old fluff
I used to have a copy of the 40K Fluff Bible on one of my hard drives, but I can't locate it.

Anyone else got one?

>> No.53149063

What do you guys think about metallic Emperors Children?

I'm thinking of doing a test model

>> No.53149162

>>53148619
>there are people in this thread who don't use Vallejo Model Air Metallics for their metals

>> No.53149165

>>53149063
Might look cool. Post it once you have the test model

>> No.53149186

>>53149162
>there are people in this thread who don't use Vallejo™ Model Air Metallics™ for their metals

>> No.53149190

>>53149162
VMA golds are total shit tho

>> No.53149229

>>53149063
Metallic purple ECs or Platinum ECs? Either way, post results.

>> No.53149243

>>53149190
Are they? I only have experience with their steels/silvers and they seem great.

>> No.53149293

why do so many people willingly convert to chaos when the overwhelming majority of them just get turned into gross looking mutants before dying violently?

>> No.53149295

>>53149162
I personally prefer Vallejo Metal Color, but VMA silvers are nice too.
>>53149190 is right though, VMA Golds aren't great. GWs and Scale75 ones are quite a bit better.

>> No.53149336

>>53149293
Because you get a shot at pretty much true immortality. That's fucking huge. Personally I'd go join the Admech, odds are better and the extra limbs help a larger percentage of the time, but whatever.

>> No.53149346

>>53148812
I have a Space Marine (1st edition Epic, 1991) rulebook and it basically has the Flight of the Eisenstein story.

The EC, DG, WE, TS, and SoH/LW (both names are used) are at Isstvan III - yep, the planet's spelled differently from the 3rd ed. codex. Captains from those "chapters", including Tarvitz, Garro, and Varren (who's wearing red) are holding a secret meeting. The plan is for Varren and his WE to seize the Eistenstein. The other 70 loyalists will take control of their own ships and give the Eistenstein space to flee before doing whatever damage they can to the fleet.

In other words, the new fluff matches the older fluff, but not the middle fluff.

Jervis Johnson is listed as the author for both books, so... looks like he didn't have a firm timeline in his head. Which is fine, this was all legends and stuff. But now that's being fleshed out, I'm glad they had a 'loremaster' to keep things straight.

>> No.53149357

>>53149162
Can they be brushed?

>> No.53149377

>>53149357
They brush perfectly!
>0.25$ has been deposited into my account

>> No.53149381

>>53131437

Betrayer was kinda sad

Angron was a kinda cool guy when the butcher's nails weren't turning his brain to pulp, Kharn was nice too actually

>> No.53149422

>>53149336
>Personally I'd go join the Admech, odds are better and the extra limbs help a larger percentage of the time, but whatever.
This. You can CHOOSE which extra limbs you want, as wel as the nature of your augmentations. It's funny how Cawl is only BARELY younger than the Primarchs by a few decades.

>> No.53149438

>>53148611
Honestly, it doesn't look as bad in person as it does in pictures, the camera really doesn't do it justice. When you take a picture of it, it over-blows its shine (which simultaneously makes it look textured and ugly). For Warmahordes, I painted my murderelves in glossy red armor and it does look nice, so long as it's not through the eyes of a camera.

>> No.53149509

>>53149422
Is Cawl the oldest loyalist Imperial in 40k if time spent in stasis doesn't count? He's been active for the full 10k years, not napping like Bjorn or the numbered mistakes.

>> No.53149539

>>53149293
Because of the urge of rebellion resulting from years and years of an extremely oppressive system.

>> No.53149586

>>53149509
Nah thats the Emperor, look at his beautiful mug! You can barely tell he's 50,000yrs young!.

>> No.53149604

>>53149293
Because Chaos doesn't advertise its negative qualities and the Imperium is too scared to publicly acknowledge its existence to explain how it's shit.

>> No.53149653

is it implied at one point in Fulgrim that somebody rapes a corpse or did I just misread things

>> No.53149654

>>53149604
Chaos is best you imperial cuck

>> No.53149676

>>53149653
Can you really "rape" a corpse though?

>> No.53149703

>>53149654
I didn't know ADB posted here. I really enjoy your work, sir.

>> No.53149704

>>53149063
I feel like it could look great, but metallic purple is a tricky beast to play with. Looking forward to the test model though.

>> No.53149721

>>53149586
To be fair, he's lost ten thousand years on the Golden Throne and is more a plot device than a person at this point.

>> No.53149741

>>53149422
He lasted way longer than over half of them, given Horus is dead and all the loyalists have not been doing anything for most of that ten millennia. He also didn't have a thousand's strong horde of superhumans to die for him until he made it to ArchMagos, nor a fuckton of hereditary privilege, and he's not fucked up yet. Cawl for Emperor M42.

>> No.53149766

>>53149509

There's probably at least a few Archmagi left from those times. Other than them, yes, I suspect the Mechanicus have the oldest living people by experience. Maybe there's a few who refused the new order and left with all they had, Old Mechanicum fleets championing a dead cause and a changed god. That would be badass.

>> No.53149770

why don't they just build cadian pylons on EVERY planet

why don't they just launch one into the warp

>> No.53149783

>>53149766
>Planet under attack by Orks/Daemons
>Massive, superadvanced fleet warps in, exterminates them with unparalleled efficiency.
>Planet hails them
>"Archmagos, praise be! We did not know the Mechanicus would help us."
>"The fools did not, Governor."

>> No.53149802

>>53149703
It's slightly lacking his usual flair. I mean, I don't think that's how the confrontation at the end of Betrayer went, for example.
>'Calth,' Guilliman said again. 'No words now, "brother"? No reply for what your legion has done across the Five Hundred Worlds?'
>'Chaos is best you imperial cuck,' said Lorgar.

>> No.53150024

>>53149509
>He's been active for the full 10k years
We don't know that. I'm not even emitting an opinion on time in stasis, since the oldest Imperials then would be the Lion closelly followed by Guilliman, and both are noted by being in the death-like state of stasis for 9000+ years.
>>53149741
He's too pure for that. At this time he is the power behind Guilliman. Brought him back and made new marines.
Cawl is NuMalcador.

>> No.53150066

Does anyone have the generic Legion army list pdf or epub? It's not in the MEGA, they're both the Legion book.

>> No.53150147

>>53150066
Ctrl+F
legiones-astartes-age-of-darkness-army-list.pdf
It highlights a secret option that may be what you're looking for.

>> No.53150190

>>53149770
Humans can't build Necrontyr tech, and we're not sure the Necrons can either, given how much brainpower they lost when they transferred their minds over.

>> No.53150220

>>53149770
The Void Dragon built the Pylons. He is currently RIS (resting in shards).

>> No.53150222

>>53149802

>> No.53150256

>>53150147
Warpdammit, I make half the threads and STILL fail to read the OP. Thanks anon.
>BRB, fetching pain glove.

>> No.53150259

>>53149770
>why don't they just launch one into the warp

Read Skitarri/Tech-Priest by Rob Sanders, the Gellar Device/Empyric bomb they use is close to what it sounds like you're describing.

>> No.53150270

>>53150220
Everything's a bloody shard of a god with GW nowadays.

>> No.53150279

>>53150190
>Humans can't build Necrontyr tech, and we're not sure the Necrons can either, given how much brainpower they lost when they transferred their minds over.

I got the distinct impression in "Legion" that the Alpha Legion was at least aware of how to use the damn stuff.
They probably were not constructing the pylons, but they sure were bundling them up into clusters to manipulate the warp around them.

>> No.53150286

>>53132319
... it was always about purity not perfection.
Shameful how much this misconception about us spread through other Legions ... and even among our own ...

>> No.53150299

>>53150279
But Abaddon spent 10000 years breaking the things. Were do we get ADDITIONAL PYLONS now?

>> No.53150317

>>53150256
It's ok. I only know because I put it there in the first place.

>> No.53150318

>>53150299
Ask the Dragon of Mars if it remembers.

>> No.53150323

>>53150299
Raid that Necrontyr Dyson Sphere that the Tyranids are very busy avoiding? That might have quite a bit of active warp-damper sitting on its surface.

>> No.53150324

>>53150279
The Serpent Beneath, you mean?

They were getting help from the Cabal at the time, and I'd expect one of them to be familiar with Necrontyr stuff.

>> No.53150364

>>53150324
Probably the Serpent then, I basically read those two back to back, they blend together a little bit.
The Cabal was helping, but they had a Magos constructing the actual arrays (and stealing one for installation on a remote agri-world for some reason)

>> No.53150369

I don't really see how GW could pull off "Alpha legion were secret good guys the whole time" considering the fact that they actively go around ruining world and mutating and shit

>> No.53150406

>>53150369
Like the AL infighting, GW and FW have both plans that they don't tell each other about.

>> No.53150409

>>53150369
Considering individual cells weren't really aware of the motives and orders of anyone but themselves, some may have gone overboard a bit on the Chaos.
But there might be a sizeable chunk of Loyal AL hiding in the darkness beyond the Ghoul Stars, and they did make a copy of the Emperor's secret Space Marine Mass Production blueprint before tainting the one that Corvus had.

>> No.53150426

>>53150409
>But there might be a sizeable chunk of Loyal AL hiding in the darkness beyond the Ghoul Stars
Well, look at what I found.

>> No.53150439

>>53149015
Sure thing.

>> No.53150441

>>53150286
I think you will like these...

>> No.53150475

>>53150369
The DA Fallen have a greater chance of being good guys, imo.

I think it's clear that Omegon changed his mind about following the Cabal's advice - he was "loyal" but he knew that the legion's actions would mean it could never be accepted back into the Imperium. Alpharius, I think, got drunk with power and decided the legion could benefit greatly from taking down the Emperor, and if it was a painful victory for Horus then all the better for the AL.

Then Alpharius leaves the scene and we'll see what Omegon does. In old fluff, the AL mostly keep the SW away from Terra but don't participate in the Siege of Terra. In the new fluff they could have them staying away from Terra because they're starting to divorce themselves from the Traitors. Then Eskandor happens, Omegon leaves the scene, and it's a free-for-all with AL warbands doing their own thing for fun and profit.

>> No.53150483

>>53150369
If the twins were dedicated to letting Horus win to kill Chaos it doesn't make much sense for them to keep that shit up all the way to M41.

>> No.53150553

>>53150409
I like to think this way when regarding 40k era AL. They tend to be all over the place, from actually cunning, well thought out characters with their own motives and plans to further even greater objectives, to Saturday Morning Cartoon villains like the AL present in Dawn of War (i.e. METAL BOXES)

>> No.53150555

>>53150475
>>53150409
My headcanon is they may have been secret loyalists in the 31st millennium, but after 10,000 years of playing at being chaotic they're full on traitors. Chaos corruption is a literal thing in the setting, you can be corrupted just by reading certain stuff or being too close to artefacts, like it's radiation or something. So, I reckon the alpha legion flew too close to the dark sun of chaos, and fell.

>> No.53150559

>>53150483
Decentralised control, those are most likely individual cells acting on their last valid orders (ie. fuck shit up), rather than stuff actually controlled by the leadership of the AL.
Especially considering Alpharius is very dead (because Dorn) and Omegon is either dead at the hands of Girlyman or missing.

>> No.53150584

>>53150439
Much thanks, my old version (which was probably deleted at some point) was a .doc, so this is even nicer.

>> No.53150589

It devolves into a "Trying to guess what the AL is really up to" episode.

>> No.53150603

>>53149802
>>'Chaos is best you imperial cuck,' autistically screeched Lorgar.
FIFY

>> No.53150604

I know some don't like them, but I feel my WB list needs some more gun to back up the 20 Ashen Circle and 10 Gal Vorbak with Daemon help and I have an elite slot free, so would a unit of Radmissile Servitors be OK? Other shooty doom unit is two Vindicators and I refuse to use rapiers.

>> No.53150616

>>53150559
The constant
>we are all Alpharius
memeing didn't seem to do much in the way of concealing their Primarchs.

>> No.53150699

>>53150616
What with all primarchs being psychic to a certain degree (some more than others), the ALs Twin Primarchs couldn't really hide from a fellow primarch, from regular marines they very likely could, but a primarch will instantly recognize the presence of another primarch.

>> No.53150703

>>53150604
Obviously, don't know the rest of your list, but you might be decently set for anti-infantry with all the ashen circle & gal vorbak, so how about some extra anti-tank? A contemptor dreadnought of some shape (either -mortis with its double guns, or a -cortus with a chainfist and two grav guns) could get work done for you.

>> No.53150727

>>53150699
I did like the short story when some dumbass space wolf thought he'd actually killed the primarch alpharius, and then got the shock of his life when another "alpharius" turned up and shot him.

>> No.53150755

>>53150727
Where?

>> No.53150778

>>53150755
Wish I could remember, looking for it now. Hang on.

>> No.53150804

>>53150755
>>53150778
Ah, found it faster than expected. "Hunter's Moon", in Legacies Of Betrayal.

>> No.53150831

>>53150703
I was planning on sticking in a Lightning to crack Spartans open, so the Mortis might be a really good idea for AA and light AT, thanks. Rest of the list isn't set yet, but plan was Layak for AC troops, Mandatory Chaplain with Jump Pack to lead one of the Gal Vorbak deepstrike squads and for Daemon allies one of each herald with 20 Bloodletters, 20 Daemonettes, some Beasts of Nurgle to run cover for the Ashen Circle and some Screamers respectively. A kind of mini Infernal Tetrad, given I can get Cursed Earth on Layak guaranteed to buff them. Was planning to have a Damocles Command Rhino as HQ #3 since a massive portion of my army can deepstrike in and the extra Orbital Strike would be handy. Was thinking I should find a squad to stick in there.

Not sure what to do when Lorgar wants to come along, since I have to give up Ashen Circle troops then. Tacticals seem dull with so many daemons covering the front line part.

>> No.53150934

>>53150804
I'll take very it w read, thanks.

>> No.53150935

>guy shows up with marine army painted up as a loyalist legion
>says he will be using Alpha Legion rules because they are in disguise
How do you respond?

>> No.53150965

>>53149766
>I suspect the Mechanicus have the oldest living people by experience.
Canonically they're pretty much immortal. Until they go so insane/senile someone puts them down.

>>53150024
>and both are noted by being in the death-like state of stasis for 9000+ years.
I thought Lion was explicitly sleeping. Fucking hardcore hikkineet, taking a nap for 10k years.

>> No.53150977

>>53147756
That's what I figured, I just couldn't find anything resembling a FAQ to ease my fear. Thanks friendo, gonna make a fun & fluffy Sally Manders list using Awakening Fire.

>> No.53150983

>>53150935
It's AL. Let him, and just enjoy it

>> No.53150997

>>53150935
If people can use a bare resinemite army as Blood Angels, why couldn't he use his painted army as AL?

>> No.53151027

>>53150997
Why particularly blood angels, out of interest?

>> No.53151080

>>53150965
That's why ancient Magi have a servocherub constantly whispering to him in spoken High Gothic
>Memento Homo
Remember you're (just) a man

>> No.53151126

>>53151027
Because no one can call them on any bullshit they do because Sanguinius held the Gates. They could lose the chapter to Genestealers and ally with necrons, and they'd still be better liked than Imperial Fists or Ultramarines or any such poster boy

>> No.53151157

>>53149770
>why don't they just launch one into the warp
Inquisitor Quixos attempted to do something like this. Given that he was busy ODing on Chaos at the time it was probably a bad idea.

>>53150323
>Involving the Outsider
>With anything
>Ever
The absolute madman.

>> No.53151172

>>53151080
Auriga Servitors? Cool idea. Maybe I'll give my Magos Reductor one.

>> No.53151358

>>53150584
Don't worry about it, I've had it so long that it's an honor to share it.

I've had it for so long that I printed a copy out because it used to be actually difficult to find.

>> No.53151536

>>53150426
>Occam's Razor
Wew

>> No.53151658

Not UM-level late new bread:
>>53151641
>>53151641
>>53151641
No blood-sacrifice involved, honest.

>> No.53153028

Anyone has a download link for Magnus the Red and Leman Russ epubs/mobis?

Links in this genereal aren't up to date...

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