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51534497 No.51534497 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>find a new group of players
>they're all pretty cool people, one is a close friend and the others are all pretty friendly
>one of the other players is a GM, and inexperienced
>you're having fun being a player but think it'd be so much more fun to be the one running for them

Being a ForeverGM that actually enjoys the position is a weird feel.

>> No.51534525
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51534525

I'm a narcissist so same, except fun is a cuck measure fit for a faggot who'd use the term "ForeverGM", especially with careful punctuation and all (you new?), I just usually feel it'd be BETTER if I run it, because it would be.

>> No.51534560

>>51534525
>Fun is a cuck measure.

The world doesn't make any sort of goddamn sense anymore.

>> No.51534575

You know exactly what to do

>> No.51534576
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51534576

Pic related.

>> No.51534654

>>51534560
It doesn't MEAN anything. it's wishy washy new age feel good BS

>> No.51534665

>>51534654
>It doesn't MEAN anything
What's it like, being dumb?

>> No.51534734
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51534734

>>51534525
Sweet Christ, I know it's trying to say something, but I can't decipher it; it's like an entirely other language.

>> No.51534740
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51534740

>>51534665
You tell me. It doesn't mean anything as a measure, sorry you couldn't draw that from context. "It" here refers to "fun" - I know you have trouble following conversations for more than one post at a time, and that's okay, we're here for you.

>> No.51534743

>>51534654
That's like saying, "Melody doesn't MEAN anything. it's wishy washy new age feel good BS" about music.

Basically, you're retarded and miss the entire point.

>> No.51534771

>>51534740
It's THE ONLY MEANINGFUL MEASURE. If you are measuring anything else, you aren't measuring the game meaningfully.

>> No.51534820
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51534820

>>51534771
No, you DOLT, I don't mean it's not MEANINGFUL AS A MEASURE, I mean it can't be MEANINGFULLY MEASURED

>> No.51534834

>>51534771
Or... Now hear me out here... Or, it is one of a variety of measures and a very important one IMO!

I have some groups who gauge their enoyment (not necessarily fun, per se) out of Shakespeare in the park-esque Roleplay.

Now, it's not fun, so much as a sort of satisfaction with a job well done, and that's fine!

Just that as a hobby we need to stop slinging absolutes around when really we all mean something along the lines of "I believe that..." Or "in my opinion"

The problem with assuming people automatically apply that in text is that humans use a lot more than just words in communication. So much is lost in text, things you think are obvious or nuanced are (often) imperceptible short of an outright statement.

It is however a consistent issue with rpg gamers. Even over and above vidya imo.

>> No.51534841

>>51534525
You're not just a narcissist, you're a sociopath. Fun is great. I'm sorry that you can't experience it. You should probably just kill yourself.

>> No.51534907

>>51534841
Now everyone can be an asshole. Together!

Damn tg.

>> No.51534934
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51534934

>>51534834
>Just that as a hobby we need to stop slinging absolutes around when really we all mean something along the lines of "I believe that..." Or "in my opinion"
No you're wrong and gay. You need to do exactly the opposite, Start ASSUMING everyone is saying that preceding every post and stop getting triggered every time someone doesn't. Because it doesn't fucking matter. ALSO stop being a marxist SUBJECTIVIST cumstain who thinks all stances, beliefs, ideals can only be nothing more than an opinion equal to any other. Sometimes we can state our beliefs with a LITTLE certitude and that's fucking okay

>> No.51534949
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51534949

>>51534841
FUN CAN'T BE MEASURED YOU HIPPIE

>> No.51534959

>>51534740
Fun means something you enjoy doing. If you're enjoying what you're doing, you're having fun.

See, that wasn't hard.

>> No.51534991

>>51534740
Fun means the activity alone, without the use of intoxicants, causes your brain to release endorphins which cause you to feel "happy"

>> No.51535020

>itt: spot the /a/spie

>> No.51535041

>>51535020
I'd argue /v/. "Fun is a buzzword/meme/whatever" has been a meme on /v/ for years.

>> No.51535042

>>51534820
It can be. It can't be directly quantifiably measured.

>> No.51535083
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51535083

>>51534959
You'd "enjoy yourself" more you were doing lines and making out, it doesn't mean it's a good session. Or just going into a big circle jerk, I don't mean ERP, I mean literally getting together to sit down and stroke each other off under the table, in a big circle, maybe roll some dice with your free hand for kicks. If "enjoying yourself" really was just your measure of, say, good DM'ing, then you'd seek out exclusively child players - though I don't doubt that your existing table is mentally so, if that actually is the intellectual limit to your engagement in the hobby.

Not only is "fun" extremely relative to context of the group and situation with little relevance to the mechanical game itself, maintaining a steady supply of dopamine hits is one of the most base & depressing goals anyone could have regarding the RPG medium. cuck.

>> No.51535162

>>51535041
>anime reaction images
>pretentious attitude and similarly annoying writing style

There's considerable overlap but I'm still going with /a/spie.

>> No.51535208
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51535208

>>51534525

>> No.51535326

>>51535083
You are undertaking a game wherein you pretend to be a magical creature who has legendary adventure in a place that doesn't exist. To simulate this you spend hours learning rules, writing sheets, and researching. This gives you no benefit besides that enjoyment or satisfaction you derive from playing.
It is not an intellectual pursuit. No one has achieved enlightenment, cured cancer, or fundamentally changed life for the common man by playing an rpg and eating cheetos.
Fun is the end goal. You are trying to make your fun hobby seem like more than a fun hobby. Which means your fun hobby is actually a sad hobby. Reevaluate.

>> No.51535388

>>51535083
Fun is not a binary state. You can have a little fun or a lot of fun.

>> No.51535417
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51535417

>>51534525

>> No.51535477
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51535477

>>51535326
It's quite sad to see how distant all culture, beyond the most base distraction (distraction, I can only assume, from whatever sorry life you lead), has been from you that you've come to believe intellectual pursuits exist only as those that would help "achieve enlightenment, cure cancer, or fundamentally change life for the common man." If your goal was to achieve pity from me, you have won, and if your goal was to teach my dark heart the meaning of guilt for forcing you to dredge up your sordid and deprived situation and lay it bare for all of 4chan to see, you've won twice over.

>> No.51535557

>>51534497
>Find a new group of players
>They are all pretty cool
>First game is great
>Group dissolves due to "life"
>Spend a few months to find a new group
>Repeat

Its happened six times now in a row. I'm starting to just not care anymore. Its disheartening finding a good group for it to just up and poof.

>> No.51535578

>>51534497
well, as long as you are having fun as a player it isn't so bad. Maybe ask your GM if they are cool with you running a one shot one week just so you can get that sweet GM rush.

>> No.51535580

>>51534740
Actually the original response was referring to "cuck".

>> No.51535742
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51535742

>>51535580
Oh, I said that because the "fun is all that matters" meme is a very lefty tenet that's a mainstay in a certain segment of the modern TTRPG (and other 'nerd' mediums, videogames for example) community - a segment made of people you'd normally see described as cucks or numales. I call it lefty because it relies on dual assumptions of relativism and subjectivism that are marxist in origin (specifically in regards to art theory). It's also undeniably twinkish.

>> No.51535793
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51535793

Jesus fuck. I think I lost IQ points just reading this thread. You all should join hand-in-hand and leap off a tall building. Quit wasting my resources.

>> No.51535796

>>51534525
This is the most autistic thing i've read on this fucking webside.

>> No.51535816

>>51534497
I became a foreverGM the same way. It's more fun to know the game will be run well than to be stuck in a game with someone who doesn't really know how to do it. I never understood the "boohoo forever DM" complaints because I've honestly never had that much fun as a player. and if i do then the game ends way too soon :(

>> No.51535872
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51535872

>>51534525

>> No.51535876

>>51535083
what is your life like

>> No.51535894

>>51535742
Tthe plural of medium is media, you faux-intellectual blowhard.

>> No.51535913

In this thread we see two camps with differing definitions of the word "fun". One camp, which seems to be exclusively one person, is probably an ESL individual due to his reliance on a single word as a derogatory remark and he's clearly schewed opinion on the definition of the word "fun". You see, fun is not defined as happiness. Nor is it define as glee, dopamine, smiles, or joy. Fun is a sense of satisfaction from an activity. You can have fun and not be happy. You can have fun while being terrified, angry, sad, or any other emotion. You can have fun with someone you love or someone you hate. Fun is not happy slappy giggle times, it's just enjoying what you are currently doing. Anyone who thinks fun is solely the result of dopamine reactions is literally, and I do use the word correctly, LITERALLY an autist

>> No.51535955

>>51534949
Yeah it can, you just gotta know how to do it. There is obviously things that are more or less fun than other things so all you have to do is take something that is fun, something that is more fun, something that is not fun, and something that is even less fun, then find the factors that make certain things more or less fun. With a little extra work after that you could theoretically have a basic measure of fun.

>> No.51535999
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51535999

>>51535876
I more or less successfully stave off depression with alcohol. And girls, but girls were a mistake.

>>51535913
You can have fun for lots of reasons. They have much more to do with the group and context of the sessions than it does the game itself. It's not meaningful as a measure AND it can't be meaningfully measured.

>ESL
Is that kind of like ESP?

>> No.51536011

I actually enjoy being foreverGM more than a player, for mostly 2 reasons, one, I enjoy having control of the story and tailoring it for other people, two, I get bored if I'm not playing 24/7, and since I don't want to be a spotlight stealer or anything, I prefer just being the GM

>> No.51536015

>>51536011
>story
Wew

>> No.51536024

>>51534654
As a matter of fact, considering something fun implies you have a set of parameters that are being satisfied which are applied a value that put them above the parameters that aren't.

it's just a matter of identifying the parameters in play and the values behind them.

>> No.51536048

>>51536024
This I can agree with. But then, why use the word "fun" when literally anything would suffice? Why not Gurp (Gurps singular), for example?

>> No.51536085
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51536085

>Ha ha yes this was a gurp session boys!
>Yes it was! Thanks for another gurp night DM!
>be me, DM
>tfw when players expectations of gurp are satisfied

>> No.51536132
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51536132

>>51535042
>It can be. It can't be directly quantifiably measured.
But anon, quantifiably measuring things is the only thing in life that's meaningful!

>> No.51536139

>>51534525
I'm high and what is this

>> No.51536156

>>51534497
It's not a weird feel. I flat out don't enjoy playing.

>> No.51536231

>>51535999
It means English is your second language, autismo.

>> No.51536269

>>51535742
But would you stay in a group if you found the play unfun?

>> No.51536291
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51536291

>>51536231
I know you're but what am I?

>> No.51536332

>>51536269
If I found anything about the game/group interesting, no. For example, the DM's setting, the mechanics of the game, or the color of the panties the cute girl at the table is wearing. Fun isn't the only thing in the world. HDMYB?

>> No.51536341

>>51534525
This sentence started autistic and gradually declined into going as far as decided to use even go want to do look more like.

>> No.51536369

>>51536332
> Fun isn't the only thing in the world
But you're saying that you're finding fun in enjoying the setting, mechanics, panties etc. instead, and would not stay if there was no redeeming qualities. Clearly we both agree that having fun is central to enjoying a hobby, correct?

>> No.51536411
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51536411

>>51535742
What word would you prefer, enjoyment? That's a synonym. It's the same thing. If you reply yes, you are a retard. Fair warning.
If not, what is the point of gaming for you?

>> No.51536427
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51536427

>>51534497
I have severe tendencies towards control and perfectionism, I hate being a GM but I also hate seeing new GMs make mistakes all the time; so I just sort of cling really tightly to a chair and pretend I'm fine.

>> No.51536435
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51536435

>>51536369
What exactly are you defining fun to be? I wouldn't exactly call wondering about a girl's panties fun. It's certainly interesting. Relishing a man's unique style of DM'ing or testing the limits of a complicated sense of humor isn't really "fun" either. Unless you mean fun to be any activity that leans closer to desirable than undesirable.

In which case I'll still disagree. Undesirable situations are still essential to the hobby. Stressful encounters, TPK, learning a crunchy new system. Just because it's an activity you voluntarily choose to participate in doesn't mean it has to be all dopamine all the way through - even if that's what they try to feed you in overcorporate game shop sessions these days.

>>51536411
Maybe interesting or valuable. Worth your time aka worthwhile.

>> No.51536453

>>51536435
/v/ reporting in. Can confirm fun isn't the only measure of quality in games, traditional or otherwise. One can respect a good story and great build without actively having fun.

It's called Morrowind.

>> No.51536455
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51536455

>>51534525

>> No.51536477

>>51536048
Why use "Knife" to describe "a small hand-held edged object" instead of "Gorlack"?
It's just the fucking word some asshole picked a couple centuries ago, so now it's part of the language.

>> No.51536478

>>51536453
>Morrowind
I thought it was a MMO game? How can it have a good story?

>> No.51536486

>>51536435
I'm just wondering about your definition of 'fun'. Fun means having a good time. Fun isn't synonymous with 'constant rewards'. For example hard work can be fun if you enjoy seeing the results. Spending your free time on something you don't enjoy at all (thus you not getting any fun out of it) seems to me bizarre.

>> No.51536493

>>51536435
All that sounds like fun to me. It seems like you've definitely got a different definition of fun stuck in your head, like fun can't be found in 'bad things', that setbacks in a fictional setting can't be fun. I'd also say that your interest in something causes you have fun. Really interest is just enjoying thinking about something, and as established enjoyment = fun.
>>51536453
But Morrowind is fun.
>>51536478
REEEE UNDERAGE GET OUT

>> No.51536510

>>51535999
>They have much more to do with the group and context of the sessions than it does the game itself.
Not necessarily true.
While it is true that there are a number of factors that measure into the level of fun being had and "the game" is just a fraction of the sum total of factors that include the group, context, and others, each of those factors is weighted differently depending upon the individual.
Stating that the game is outweighed by the other factors is a biased point of view that is not necessarily true of everyone.

>It's not meaningful as a measure AND it can't be meaningfully measured.
Simply untrue.
While the fuzzy analog of measuring fun subjectively does not yield comparative units of fun, by rendering the measurement into a series of digital comparisons, you can measure relative fun in a meaningful way.
The most meaningful measurement of fun is the initial question:
>Was this session fun? (yes/no)
>Was this session more fun than last session? (yes/no)
>Was this session more fun than doing (x)? (yes/no)
>Was this session more fun than doing (y)? (yes/no)
>Was this session more fun than doing (z)? (yes/no)
>Was this session more fun than doing (your mom)? (yes/no)

>> No.51536522
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51536522

>>51536493
>>51536486
If having a good time is the limit of your ability to engage with a cultural medium, why don't you fags just jerk each other off under the table, roll a few dice and call it a day?

>> No.51536528
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51536528

>>51536493
I don't understand your reaction.
:^)

>> No.51536552
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51536552

Dusting this screencap off for this discussion:
Fun is an important element to any game.
Fun is not the only important element to any game.

>> No.51536567

>>51536522
Because I don't enjoy jerking people off, especially not overweight neckbeards, and I'd be particularly uncomfortable having a similar overweight neckbeard jerk me off. I'd enjoy crafting a story with friends and overcoming imaginary obstacles more than cumming over the table with a bunch of weirdos.

>> No.51536618

>>51536522
Why would I want to spend my free time engaging with a cultural medium that has nothing to offer to me? I mean, are you claiming that you habitually engage with cultural mediums you fucking hate, for free? are you a janitor

>> No.51536625
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51536625

>>51536552
Story is a result of the system being played, no one is there to "tell" it. It's crafted through play. This goofy nigger broke his left foot to stick it up his own ass and he has the gall to tell anyone how to walk.

>>51536567
Then just jack yourself off. Put on some trap porn for a challenge. Keep increasing the ante as your experience gets higher. Hell, roll on one of /b/'s post no. fetish charts, now it's a full-fledged TTRPG and technically objectively more fun than anything else you'll ever play.

>> No.51536653
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51536653

>>51536618
>the only thing culture has to offer me is a good time
Art is not a cheap whore. You are garbage!

>> No.51536665

>>51536625
Can't jack myself off forever man, it gets boring. Gotta have a couple other things going on, and ttrpgs are another thing that I enjoy.

>> No.51536709

>>51536625
>Story is a result of the system being played, no one is there to "tell" it. It's told through play.
FTFY
You pedantic dumbass.

>> No.51536733
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51536733

>>51536665
Bro I'm telling you, just combine your two loves: masturbation and TTRPG. The ultimate in good times

>> No.51536746

>>51534525
hey Virt :*

>> No.51536767

>>51536625
I'm starting to think that you're just triggered by the word 'fun', and if anything else was used instead (like enjoyment) we wouldn't be even having this conversation.

>> No.51536794

>>51536733
>tfw no qt grill to fug and roleplay with
>>51536767
To be more charitable, it's more a misunderstanding due to his interpretation of 'fun', it's that to him 'fun' has a different nuance to enjoyment, and that you can enjoy yourself without having fun. To him I think fun is enjoyment from more dumb and positive kind of pursuits, and I'm kinda seeing him there now.

>> No.51536820
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51536820

>last 4 games I join didn't last more then a week or was doing something I was not flat out enjoying at all
>join a new game but get a gut feeling I won't like it
>Later in the week say let me know I'm dropping out before it even started and wish them the best
The last few games outside of one I had this "gut" feeling too and they all ended up bad but this is the first time I followed up with it and left a game before it even started not sure if should feel good about it.

>> No.51536828

>>51536820
I let them know*

>> No.51536834

>>51536820
Were these online games without a "session 0"?

>> No.51536855

>>51536834
If you mean everybody sitting down and doing stuff like character creation as a group then yeah one (the one I liked the most but didn't last past new year) was the only one with a session zero.

>> No.51536886
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51536886

>>51536794
Fun, enjoyment, a good time, it's all the same thing. My point is that there are higher reasons to engage in the medium than pleasure, hedonism, gratification, whatever you want to call it - it's base and shallow and to treat it as the ultimate, fundamental ideal on which all works, GMs, and sessions should be judged is fucking pathetic and stupid. Seriously, just play high if that's all you're looking for, why beat around the bush? Or just beat behind the bush, in a big satanic nerd circlejerk.

>I'm kinda seeing him there now.
Really? I've never convinced anyone of anything after over a decade on this site

>> No.51536903

>>51536855
Ah, yep.
GMs need to vet players, especially online.
If you're playing online and don't get vetted, you're playing roulette, not rpg.
A session where everyone gets together to casually discuss the game and characters is a decent way to vet players.

>> No.51536929

>>51536886
I'm a bit at loss here, so could you give examples please? What was the thing you got out of the last campaign you played, it if wasn't fun?

>> No.51536936

>>51536886
See, I'd argue that enjoyment isn't just that 'base and shallow' thing you're talking about. You can enjoy interpreting a piece of art, or enjoy the pursuit of knowledge or acts of altruism, which may not fit the interpretation of 'fun' I thought you were using. And again, because jerking off isn't all there is to life.

>> No.51536960

>>51536903
I just want to have a game to play on the side as I gm. Like in the 5 or years I been using roll20 I only been in one game that lasted more then 8 weeks its the worst.

>> No.51536979

>>51536886
The position that "Fun is not the only important element to a game." is a reasonable one.
If that is your position, you have done yourself and your position no favors in this thread.

The position that "Fun is not an important element to a game." is an unreasonable one.
If that is your position, you have done yourself and the human race no favors in this life.

The position that "Fun is a less important element to a game than others, and therefore doesn't matter." is an unreasonable opinion.
If that is your opinion, you have done yourself sexual favors in this thread and I invite you to do so elsewhere.

>> No.51536987

>>51536552
>Fun is not the only important element to any game.
Actually, it is. I couldn't imagine anything as stupid as this sentence even if I tried.

>> No.51537031

>>51536979
>The position that "Fun is not the only important element to a game." is a reasonable one.
I'd contest this. Fun is not an element of the game in itself, it's something that rises (or fails to rise) from the combination of elements of game. The elements being things as fellowship, story, mechanics, etc.

>> No.51537084
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51537084

>>51536987
>Actually, it is. I couldn't imagine anything as stupid as this sentence even if I tried.
And there is no shame in you having that opinion.
Your insistence that rules, socialization, and all other elements of games are all meaningless and don't matter at all is no reason for us to marginalize you.

I do have to ask if there are any sharp objects near you right now and if so, is there someone else there that come to the computer?

>> No.51537096

>>51537031
Would "aspect" be a better term than "element" here?

>> No.51537100
File: 13 KB, 224x216, Ronald.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51537100

>>51534525

>> No.51537101

>>51537084
What could fun possibly be if not the product of rules, socialization and all the other elements of the game?

>> No.51537123

>>51537101
>What could fun possibly be if not the product of rules, socialization and all the other elements of the game?
>fun is the product of x, y, & z
>fun is important but the things that produce it are not important at all
I'm getting kind of worried that you didn't answer me about those sharp objects.

>> No.51537131

>>51537096
Frankly I don't see what's the difference between aspect and element here. All I'm saying is that fun is the end result of a game, not a separate thing that makes up the game. A product not a component you know? (what elements/aspects make the game fun of course varies from person to person)

>> No.51537144
File: 362 KB, 2048x1371, 840f50646bb703b1e8eecc23047c8e348c31eadc3c474282cd131ab009a2460c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51537144

>>51536929
Ok. It's been awhile since I played in someone else's game, but it was a gonzo dungeon and with a lot of creative ideas and weird shit that got my noggin joggin. It was impressively designed and inspiring for its creativity. It also taught me the elegance of B/X.

The sessions were fun too because we drank and made good banter but that's ASIDE from my appreciation for the design of the dungeon and setting itself. I don't care if it was fun, we would've had our fun partying anyways. Now if you want to tell me that appreciation for someone's work is another one of the many divine manifestations of "fun," go ahead, but know you're a fucking tool.

>>51536979
Fun is not an important element to ALL games, faggot. I'm not going to tell kids playing monopoly there's something they're not seeing if they're not having fun, but yes, when the autist starts getting frustrated he's no longer having the FUN he's ENTITLED to for whatever reason it is this time, we're all only going to feel embarrassed for the guy. There's more to life, and art and media, than fun.

>> No.51537146

>>51537123
>fun is important but the things that produce it are not important at all
No one besides you has made that claim in this thread. I'm not going to defend a position I did not propose, especially for you.

>> No.51537151

>>51537131
Fun is an aspect of a game, produced by the game.
Fun is not the only aspect of a game.
Something needs to do more than "produce fun" in order to be defined as a "game".
Therefore, fun is not the only important aspect to a game.

>> No.51537172

>>51537144
>Now if you want to tell me that appreciation for someone's work is another one of the many divine manifestations of "fun," go ahead, but know you're a fucking tool.
You're persistent that you didn't have fun when you had fun, which is absurd. What were the higher reasons to engage with the medium in this example of beer and pretzels game then?

>> No.51537175

>>51537123
If fun isn't the main objective then what is?
If fun is satisfaction of x, then fun is the fucking goal.
You're trying to force a "hurrdurr not descriptive enough" mentality.

>>51537144
>There's more to life, art and media, than fun.
No there fucking isn't, fun doesn't mean "haha I'm so happy right now". It literally means you have gained some sort of satisfaction out of x, whatever the fuck x is.

This entire thread is autism and should be purged.

>> No.51537184

>>51537175
So all there is for you in this life is achieving satisfaction?

>> No.51537189

>>51537146
>No one besides you has made that claim in this thread. I'm not going to defend a position I did not propose, especially for you.
See
>>51536987
>>Fun is not the only important element to any game.
>Actually, it is
AKA
>Fun is the only important element to any game.
Therefore fun is an element of a game and any other possible elements are not important at all

Also:
>>51537101
>What could fun possibly be if not the product of rules, socialization and all the other elements of the game?
AKA
>Fun is the product of elements x, y, z
Therefore there are other elements of a game that produce the element of fun.

Therefore, fun is the only important element and the things that produce it are not important at all

Try to pay attention.
I realize your mental ailment makes that difficult.

>> No.51537206
File: 1.07 MB, 1200x1200, Soft.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51537206

>>51537101
You do realize trying to quantify a pure abstract is impossible right?

>> No.51537210

>>51537144
>Fun is not an important element to ALL games,
Technically true, I suppose a grueling game of pro football might not supposed to be fun.

But seriously, "Games aren't supposed to be fun." is a dumb position to take.

>> No.51537214

>>51537184
>So all there is for you in this life is achieving satisfaction?
Give an example of one god damn thing in life that's worth achieving not for satisfaction.

>> No.51537219

>>51537175
>You're trying to force a "hurrdurr not descriptive enough" mentality.
No, I'm literally just saying that if something is important, then that which creates it is also important.

>> No.51537255

>>51537151
Again, disagree. Fun is not an aspect of a game.
Aspects of the game are things like rules, plot, other players, that are not fun or unfun in itself and in a void.
The combination of these aspects determines if the game is perceived as fun or unfun afterwards.

For example, I can define aspects like rules or plot in concrete terms, but I cannot describe such nebulous thing as fun. Therefore it's not equivalent to the aspects and is not a building block of the game, but a result of the game.

>> No.51537266
File: 52 KB, 850x478, orange salamander has a stroke.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51537266

>> No.51537286

>>51537189
>fun is the only important element and the things that produce it are not important at all
Again, you're the only one who is making the above conclusion. Fun is important, so the elements that generate that fun are important. This is not a controversial statement.

>> No.51537288

>>51537255
I similarly reject your strict requirements that all aspects of something need to be equally quantifiable in order to be considered an "aspect".

>Something needs to do more than "produce fun" in order to be defined as a "game"
Do you disagree with this assertion?

>> No.51537301

>>51537206
I'm not trying to quantify fun.

>> No.51537317

>>51537286
>Fun is important, so the elements that generate that fun are important.
Those elements of fun are also elements of the game.
Therefore, yes, they fucking did make the conclusion that elements of the game are not important.

>> No.51537324

>>51537214
Love

>> No.51537343

>>51537288
>Do you disagree with this assertion?
Not at all. There are plenty of things that are fun that cannot be called 'games' in any sensible meaning.

What I'm proposing is that I can affect how much players enjoy the game by picking a rules system they like, and plot that interests them, and vetting that the group gets along well, but I cannot add a bucket of 'fun' to the mix to turn the game fun for them, see? Fun is just a perception the player is left with after the game, not an element that can be brought from the outside.

>> No.51537363

>>51537317
see
>>51537255

>> No.51537418

>>51537363
See
>>51537288

>> No.51537460

>>51537418
No one is arguing that a game is only a game if it procures fun, a bad game doesn't produce fun
A good game does.
Either one is still a game.
The goal of a game is to give the players a sensation which can be discribed as fun.

>> No.51537487

>>51537343
>The position that "Fun is not the only important element to a game." is a reasonable one.
This is what is being contested.
By accepting that there are additional things beyond fun that define a "game" as a "game", you are accepting that those things are important to the definition of what a "game" is.
So, "Fun is not the only important [element/aspect/feature/thing/shit] to a game."
Understand?

>> No.51537505

>>51537460
That just changes "fun" to "the intention of fun".
Technically more accurate, but not pertinent to the current discussion.

>> No.51537536

>>51537505
>not pertinent to the current discussion.
I take that back.

>>51537343
>I cannot add a bucket of 'fun' to the mix to turn the game fun for them, see?
You could add a bucket of "the intention to have fun" to the mix.
Success makes a better game, failure makes a worse game.

>> No.51537547

>>51537505
How is it not pertinent to the current discussion?

Is "fun" the goal of a game or is it not?
The game itself is unimportant, the outcome of the different aspects of the game is either satisfaction or not satisfaction.
Is the overall satisfaction higher than the unsatisfacton?

And what satisfies who is entirely subjective, that subjectivity of satisfaction is best described as "fun".

>> No.51537576

>>51537487
>By accepting that there are additional things beyond fun that define a "game" as a "game"
But fun is not included in the definition of a game in the first place. Even unfun games are still games, they just happen to be games that someone personally did not enjoy.
>you are accepting that those things are important to the definition of what a "game" is.
True.
>So, "Fun is not the only important [element/aspect/feature/thing/shit] to a game."
Untrue, because fun is not an element, aspect etc. of a game to begin with. Game does not turn into a not-game just because a person did not happen to enjoy it. Fun emerges from engaging with a game (hopefully), but is not an inherent component of it.

>> No.51537580

>>51537547
Yeah, I was looking at it from one direction.
Reading over multiple posts face me a better perspective.
I stand by my other assertions though.

>> No.51537605

>>51537536
I don't quite see what's the benefit of making this distinction?

>> No.51537658

>>51537576
If fun were not an inherent component of a game, wouldn't it be true that fun is not an important component of a game, let alone the only important component of a game?
Have you been arguing the wrong point this whole time?


The position that "Fun is not the only important thing to a game." is a reasonable one.
If that is your position, you have done yourself and your position no favors in this thread.

The position that "Fun is not an important thing to a game." is an unreasonable one.
If that is your position, you have done yourself and the human race no favors in this life.

The position that "Fun is a less important thing to a game than others, and therefore doesn't matter." is an unreasonable opinion.
If that is your opinion, you have done yourself sexual favors in this thread and I invite you to do so elsewhere.

>> No.51537686

>>51537605
See
>>51537576
>But fun is not included in the definition of a game in the first place. Even unfun games are still games, they just happen to be games that someone personally did not enjoy.
This is a valid point.
However, one could argue that "the intention of fun" was included in the definition of a game.

>> No.51537703

>>51537686
>However, one could argue that "the intention of fun" was included in the definition of a game.
FATAL being an exception of course.

>> No.51537724

>>51534525
>I'm a narcissist, so I feel the same. However, 'fun' is cuck terminology, fitting for a faggot who'd use the phrase "ForeverDM". Your careful punctuation and basic respect for the english language not only amplifies said faggortry, but also leads me to believe that you haven't been on 4chan for very long. I usually just feel like the game would be better overall if I were the one running it, because it objectively would be.

How'd I do translating it?

>> No.51537777

>>51537724
You got a future in 'tard wranglin', son!
Toast toast toast toast toast!

>> No.51537795

>>51537658
Getting to have fun is one important reason to play a game, yes (another reason would be, say, playing poker for money). However, I cannot think of ruleset that states 'players must have fun playing this game'. Neither is 'player didn't have fun' a reason to disqualify a player from winning. Thus, fun is coincidental to game.

>> No.51537814
File: 6 KB, 168x219, 1447739988800.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51537814

>>51537777
>Those digits
I'm not sure how to feel about this.

>> No.51537892

>>51537795
You are tedious. You actually made me sigh.


The position that "Fun, or the intention of fun, is not the only important thing to most games." is a reasonable one.
If that is your position, you have done yourself and your position no favors in this thread.

The position that "Fun, or the intention of fun, is not an important thing to most games." is an unreasonable one.
If that is your position, you have done yourself and the human race no favors in this life.

The position that "Fun, or the intention of fun, is a less important thing to most games than other things, and therefore doesn't matter." is an unreasonable opinion.
If that is your opinion, you have done yourself sexual favors in this thread and I invite you to do so elsewhere.

>> No.51537909

>>51537892
Well, we just have to agree to disagree then.

>> No.51537947

>>51537909
I notice you have never clarified which position is yours.
I suspect "naked and prone".

>> No.51537978
File: 186 KB, 800x792, life_lesson_time_with_oncey_and_lorax_by_awesome_o_clock-d4sczjs.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51537978

>>51537814
You are the Durrax.
You speak for the windowlickers.

>> No.51537985

>>51536048
Because the word fun already exists and means exactly what >>51536024 said.

>> No.51538091
File: 124 KB, 770x505, IMG_1548.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51538091

>>51537777
The quads have spoken
>>51537724 get thee to a special ed program. Your new career awaits!

>> No.51538287
File: 1.45 MB, 1280x720, image%3A10109.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51538287

>>51538091
This just in.

>> No.51538328

>"If all you care about is this mysterious concept of "fun", then just play while drunk/high/jerking off!"
thats_not_how_it_works_you_little_shit.jpg

>> No.51538550

Okay, here's your argument in an analogy.
Person A
>I want to stab someone, so the only important item for that action is the knife I have.
Person B
>No you fucking cuck, you're completely disregarding the importance of the steel and plastic or wood that makes the knife.

The thing is, the knife is made up of those things. Your argument is that 'you said only set A important therefore element of set A, X, is unimportant to you'. The only difference is that we're dealing in abstracts with variables that change per person, which makes it hard to deal with for your autistic brain. You may as well be removing yourself from abstracts entirely, and ask that 'if only fun is important, why do you use dice you faggot?' because both are equally stupid.
Do you need a diagram? I could make a diagram fairly easy.

>> No.51538575
File: 185 KB, 940x1020, fun is a buzzword.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51538575

Well, this thread was certainly something, wasn't it?

>> No.51538603

>>51538550
>he thinks he's in any position to be calling other people autistic

w e w
e ยค e
w e w

also you do realize you're arguing with several different people at once right

>> No.51540267

>>51538550
Okay we can use your analogy, but let's represent the discussion accurately, shall we?

Person B
>A knife is not the only important element to any stabbing.

Person A
>Actually, it is

Person B
>You're saying a knife is the only important element to any stabbing and any other possible elements are not important at all.

Person A
>What could a knife possibly be if not the product of the steel and plastic or wood that makes the knife and all the other elements of the stabbing?

Person B
>You just said a knife is the product of the steel and plastic or wood that makes the knife *AND* all the other elements of the stabbing.
>If there exists, as you just said
>>51537101 , other elements of a stabbing, then you are saying a knife is the only important element and the other elements, which include, but are not limited to, the things that make up knife are not important at all.

>Person A
>No you fucking cuck, I want to stab someone, so the only important item for that action is the knife I have.

>Person B
>Actually, you just said a knife is made up of all the things that make up a knife and other things besides that.
>You suffer from some mental impairment and should be treated accordingly.
>I don't think you should be around knives.


But if you were to stab someone?
The person you wish to stab is important to be present too.
Now, the other anon will argue about the quantifiable qualifiers of the word "item".

>> No.51540337
File: 1.46 MB, 3840x2160, 1480551311474.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51540337

>>51534525

>> No.51540376
File: 6 KB, 344x326, ffs.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51540376

>>51534525
isn't that like saying pain is a cuck measure? There are different kinds of pain, it's not actually all the same sensation, nor is it actually measurable by the person experiencing in a way that isn't subjective...

That doesn't mean the person isn't in pain, it doesn't mean they can't reasonably judge if the pain is less or more severe than other experiences.

>> No.51540433

>>51540376
Well put.

>> No.51540810
File: 641 KB, 1350x1067, (((Fun))).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51540810

First ever attempt at screencapping, might be cluttered, but i wanted to try and include my favorite posts.

>> No.51540882

>>51540810
Fun fit for a cuck measuring his faggot!

>> No.51540903

>>51540337
My god, this (you) faggotry is supremely irritating. It needs to be bannable.

>> No.51541170
File: 39 KB, 706x526, 5dc1eba9fee57e84677d0f88070795c24321479349a7f994d78afc4f88edd1ad.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51541170

>>51537985
>exactly
That definition says nothing at all.

>set of parameters that are being satisfied which are applied a value that put them above the parameters that aren't
This is the definition of a measure.

>it's just a matter of identifying the parameters in play and the values behind them
This is the part where you identify what parameters define "fun". Which no one has been able to do all thread besides circular definition: FUN means ENJOY means GOOD TIME mean GOOD FEEL means HAPPY HAPPY means FUN!

It's a meaningless buzzword.

>> No.51541290
File: 3.29 MB, 1356x1267, John_Bauer_1915.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51541290

>>51537724
>Your careful punctuation and basic respect for the english language
How does treating foreverGM as a proper noun translate to this basic respect for the english language?

Fitting should be fit* (though I feel "emblematic" is more accurate) and I can only assume Faggortry is the name of some kind of monster, spitballing here but I'm guessing a sort of druidic troll - perhaps something faithful to the original troll of scandi folklore?

>> No.51541347
File: 186 KB, 1080x1080, 1436393033664.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51541347

>>51534525

>> No.51541416
File: 35 KB, 625x626, i just don't care anymore.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51541416

I've got at least one player in my group who clearly doesn't have fun compared to the rest of us, but continues play and expects/demands progress anyway. Is his attitude more or less valid than the rest of the players'?

Also where does this leave games like chess and Go, especially on a professional level? How many people play them for the same sort of "fun" as TTRPG? Is it even possible?

>> No.51541578
File: 273 KB, 920x662, 1476862645060.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51541578

>>51534525

>> No.51541684

I'm really enjoying GMing, honestly. The freedom of creation is really FUN and I'm having a FUN time with it.

>>51534525
Hey I'm just commenting to tell you that I'm publically mocking you in front of a bunch of my friends, because you deserve it.

>> No.51541731

>>51541416
'Fun' or enjoyment, in those cases, is often the satisfaction of victory.

Enjoyment is entirely subjective. Most people wouldn't "enjoy" being tied up and cut up with a knife.. and some people go to exclusive clubs and attend workshops specifically to do that as much as possible.

>> No.51541785

>>51541684
>publically
I fucking deserved that typo didn't i.

>> No.51541829
File: 162 KB, 1040x468, 1355718024619.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51541829

Man, this "fun" copypasta has really evolved from its feather-boa origins.

>> No.51541884
File: 64 KB, 720x715, C2AAMCLVQAESU6Z.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51541884

>>51534525

>> No.51542073
File: 72 KB, 463x462, 86.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51542073

How do you find your enthusiasm, /tg/? Your motivation to run?

Yesterday I cancelled on a wonderful group. We didn't even start. It just kind of faded away, I guess. I took just one more week than I had intended to start it and when the time came, I just couldn't.

It feels to me that the colors are fading. I want them back.

>> No.51542085
File: 39 KB, 400x400, autism.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51542085

>>51534525

>> No.51542118

>>51542073
That sounds like textbook clinical depression. You should probably get that checked out, but I'm no expert.

>> No.51542157
File: 61 KB, 530x600, 1477425157620.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51542157

>>51534525
Most cringeworthy thing I've seen all week

>> No.51542346

>>51541170
>It's a meaningless buzzword.

>>>/v/
Get back, Loretta.

>> No.51542893

>>51538575
Thank you! I was looking everywhere for that fucking thing.

>> No.51543730

>>51534525
Consider suicide IMO senpai

>> No.51543839

>>51534525
I'm gonna plop this in the next couple cringe threads I see, just to drive the point home.

>> No.51543859
File: 55 KB, 480x720, 1472922201746.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51543859

>>51534525

>> No.51543945

>>51536341
Anon are you ok

>> No.51544013

>>51534525
funisabuzzword.jpg

>> No.51544024
File: 116 KB, 500x463, 1477480189373.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51544024

>>51534560

these are strange times we live in, no doubt.

>> No.51544225 [DELETED] 

>>51543945
>being this new

>> No.51544283
File: 615 KB, 700x1690, bytheemporer.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51544283

>>51534934
>>51534525
>>51534740
>>51535742

>> No.51544552

>>51536411
Not that guy, but there's a distinction. I can enjoy a sunset, an action movie, or a workout session without "having fun". Fun implies a very specific form of enjoyment that's active, involved, and in the present moment. So you can enjoy a session that was not (fun), even if you can't enjoy one that was (not fun).

>>51537144
Totally unrelated, but do you mind sharing what you thought was cool in this person's game? I'm a sucker for creative dungeons.

>> No.51544924
File: 471 KB, 960x720, 13109e29fdd6ea7cd37c24f29bfc3f16baac208fbfdf28283ae737d9cffc8192.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51544924

>>51542346
It's a buzzword. It's extremely ambiguously defined yet t's oft-repeated little meme stretched to define an entire slew of things unquestionably as if it's a useful technical term, when no one can define how they're using it at any practical level. Telling you an RPG is "fun" or is "not fun" tells you nothing at all. Stretching it to mean the most vague possible description of any sort of positive feeling, enjoyment, satisfaction, pleasure or whatever else as people have tried to ITT doesn't help tell you anything either.

>> No.51545054

>>51534525
Is he speaking chaotic evil right now?

>> No.51545068

>>51534525
idc what y'all say I like this post and the person that posted it.

>> No.51545148

>>51545054

He's speaking /v/, which is virtually indistinguishable from chaotic evil, so yes.

>> No.51545169

>>51535742
Actually made some sense.

>> No.51545196
File: 202 KB, 255x249, 1485236505650.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51545196

>>51544013
>>51542346
>implying fun isn't a buzzword
Saying "playing the game made me gave me good feelings inside" is more telling, FFS, saying "fuzzy feeling" even moreso. Fun is a ROADBLOCK to critical discussion. When we discuss whether or not a system is good, we can set out objective measures (even if they're in some part relative to an individual/community's desires/expectations) from which we can compare it to: play is not slowed down by constant referring to a rulebook, rulebook is not disorganized, no large power discrepancies between players, etc.

If we're looking to see if a game is FUN and not GOOD (because it's a sin to actually say anything is bad! taste is, like, entirely subjective, man! right?), what the fuck are you looking for? That everyone will have a happy feel good fuzzy time? Everyone is looking for different things and an enjoyable experience is only distantly contingent on the system itself, as opposed to group dynamic and context. If all you want out of RPGs is to have the most feel-good happy happy time possible, get fucking high. And after you sober up and tell us how much FUN you had, you still haven't told us a damned thing about the game.

Are you cucks really so dulled that you can't see how a system and session can be appreciated for its artistic and intellectual merits? You can't appreciate an elegant system, a creative dungeon, a spontaneously well crafted story? Or is it just that you're such estrogen drenched, mentally undeveloped numales that you can only manage to engage that appreciation on the level of the emotive FEELINGS? And not even that, but the only way you know how to interpret those FEELINGS are on the measure of FUN - NOT FUN? Just what the fuck are you doing on this board if the limit of your engagement in this hobby is that of a spoiled child bored with his toys?

>>51540376
No, you don't seem to understand what is suggested by cuck. Refer to >>51535742

>> No.51545227

>>51545169
It's understandable, which doesn't stop it from being fucking retarded. Relativism comes from marxist art theory? Only lefties think fun is all that matters? It's like /pol/tard philosophy word vomit.

>> No.51545259

>>51545196
I'm sorry anon, but your head is incurably up your own ass. There's no hope for you now but death, please see yourself there ASAP.

>> No.51545273

>>51545196
I bet you're a riot at parties.

>> No.51545298
File: 18 KB, 400x300, god dammit.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51545298

By god, we've literally forgotten how to just have fun.

>> No.51545318

>>51535742
>man dese fuckin libruls fun is a marxist invention
JACKPOT, I JUST HIT THE FUCKING JACKPOT, THE MOST RETARDED PERSON ON THE BOARD HAS BEEN FOUND, I REPEAT, NOFUN KILLJOY HAS BEEN FOUND

>> No.51545395

>>51535742
Stop trying to incorporate views that have nothing to do with politics into politics.

Don't drag us down with you, cuck

>> No.51545471
File: 32 KB, 480x345, 1483532270695.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51545471

>>51545227
>Relativism comes from marxist art theory?
It's a vulgar (in the sense of populist) (mis)interpretation of post-structuralist crit theory, yes.

People are running around these days, people you may even know, with this absurd idea that taste is subjective, entirely subjective. Whether or not you like something or don't is fully up to the individual, mediated by no other factors than whatever makes up him - where does this mythical sovereign taste come from? his heart? his soul? Nobody knows...

It clearly comes out of the hefty suspicion levied on objectivity in all things cultural by postmodernism, but not even they never went so far as to suggest our tastes come from some spiritual purity we're each born with. See Bourdieu's Distinction, which basically argues the generally accepted idea one's taste is entirely defined by social and culture factors - as opposed to the 'old school' of good being measured by the degree to which a work approximates eternal ideals that transcend the human. That's the objectivity pomo railed against, not all attempts at accuracy or certainty in critical comparison.

>> No.51545542

>>51545471
I can't believe that there's a person who exists who thinks that fun is a conspiracy.

>> No.51545549

>>51545471
Wow, that's a lot of bullshit and assumptions. Kill yourself you pretentious cocksucker.

>> No.51545581

>>51545196
>>51534525
>>51540903
>>51534654
>>51541170
>>51544924
>>51545196
Where's the screen cap of that guy saying fun doesn't exist?

>> No.51545597
File: 188 KB, 736x724, 89c511cb27af771885a604914f8dff4cb86ec980bf95e2de8440f8a04986e3de.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51545597

>>51545542
Not a conspiracy, just an untenable vulgarism that gets in the way of productive critical discussion. It's not that complicated.

>> No.51545673

>>51545597
What the fuck do you call that thing children do when they want to enjoy themselves?

Fun's been a thing since people have been a thing. Fuck, ANIMALS do shit for fun.

>> No.51545766

>>51545597
Couldn't you just, y'know, discuss whether something is good separately from whether it's fun? Or would that trigger you too much?

>> No.51545771

>>51545597
>Claims to be on the side of productive critical discussion
>Uses words like cuck wrong, unironically

>> No.51545809

>>51545298
Not "us". just one anon with very very powerful autism and a thesaurus.
its like looking into the mouth of madness to try and wrap my head around his philosophy that a tabletop RPG has a deeper value and meaning than "fun" and perhaps social time.
Its a sad neckbeard trying to validate that his hobby has consumed his life.

>> No.51545814

>>51545597
so why are you on this board besides to shitpost/bait? you clearly dont play any games

>> No.51546841
File: 81 KB, 446x600, frazetta-in-pharaos-tomb-2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51546841

>>51545814
>you clearly dont play any games
What gave you that idea? I run a B/X megadungeon every sunday. I admit last night I was drunk and baiting but I do sincerely stand with what I'm arguing.

>>51545766
The belief that a work can be analyzed on the merits of fun is itself an impediment to discussion, it's a misalignment of values. Fun is not contingent to the system or the GM to any reasonable degree (in the positive at least. e.g. a poor system/GM can make a session not-fun but a good system can only allow for fun, it cannot be fun in itself). To believe so speaks to a irreconcilable difference in the how the work is understood and interpreted. Discussion of a sort is still surely possible but we would all be better off if the meme was best stamped out.

And it was everyone else ITT who got triggered at the mere mention of going against the FUN meme.

>> No.51546925
File: 64 KB, 850x1511, 2b9fddbcf607ac94cfaa6c74e38b9850003cb70547cf7d45ef0c52864cb70420.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51546925

>>51545673
Are you a child?

>> No.51547439

>>51546925
That didn't address the point that fun has always been a thing in human nature, and in the nature of animals in general.

Like, I don't get what you have against the concept of fun.

>> No.51547746
File: 163 KB, 848x480, 1485837386438.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51547746

>>51547439
I don't have anything against fun. I'm simply saying it's not a relevant or useful metric of criticism for a TTRPG, let alone the most important and possibly only metric you judge games on. It's very ambiguously defined, highly subjective, and largely not contingent on the system.

E.g. you only lose clarity (in spades) when you suggest mechanic X is "not fun" as opposed to overcomplicated, unbalanced, inelegant, out of place, etc. And the reasons why those are a problem are not solely beholden to generating un-fun, assuming so only clouds your own understanding of your own criticism. Fun is not the only reason we play TTRPG's, it's not the only thing we value games on, and this is evidenced by our actions - even if speaking any heresy against the buzzword is met with deeply threatened confusion.

>> No.51547795

As per usual it's a fucking weeb who's acting like a douche and begging for a faceful of fist. Who would have thunk it!

>> No.51547801
File: 154 KB, 500x520, the-fun-begins-dirt-road-ahead-where-the-pavement-ends-7550294.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51547801

>>51545196
>Fun is a ROADBLOCK to critical discussion.
Not gonna argue that point.
The word "dirt" is meaningless when discussing soil composition.

Here's my question:
Why are you speaking as if anything that is not useful to purely objective critical discussion is not only meaningless, but something to be reviled?
People have fun playing in the dirt, there are industries based on this fact.

Honest question.

>> No.51547812

>>51547795
Where do you think you are, newfag?

>> No.51547849

>>51534525
You all made a mistake when you started arguing with this guy.

He literally says he's a narcissist. You can't argue with that kind of person. So he's either put out the perfect bait, or he's serious and won't ever see himself as incorrect.

>> No.51547913

>>51545542
I know right?

I mean, holy shit, first I was angry at this fuckwit, but the more posts I read, and the more insanity I digest, the more I can't stop laughing.

This reminds me of reading TIME CUBE for the first time. I am literally crying with laughter.

>> No.51547921

>>51547849
That's frankly very shitty bait, it's just that the fa/tg/uys are acting all retarded for some reason

>> No.51547990
File: 575 KB, 1008x594, valentina.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51547990

>>51547801
As I just stated, I don't have anything against the concept of fun. I'm just saying it's not a meaningful metric of critical discussion. Anons at the beginning of the thread seemed to believe it's not only meaningful, but also the MOST relevant metric, if not the ONLY metric.

>> No.51548003

>>51547746
>I don't have anything against fun.
Bullshit.
Presuming that these posts are are all one anon, which for the sake of the human race, let's hope so.

>>51546841
>And it was everyone else ITT who got triggered at the mere mention of going against the FUN meme.
It was first, this anon:
>>51534525
>fun is a cuck measure
Who was triggered by OP's use of the word fun in a comparative way.
Fun can be used comparatively just fine.
See
>>51536510

>> No.51548005
File: 45 KB, 395x455, erebus-smug.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51548005

>>51547921
Dude, as soon as you put out there that you have a mental disorder, doubting your position from that perspective is entirely valid. You're literally sick in the head.

I'm not going to listen to a sociopath on how people interact in a normal fashion, I'm not going to listen to an autistic person about social cues, I'm not going to listen to a narcissist about how their opinion is infallible.

>> No.51548051

>>51534525
dumb cuckposter

>> No.51548071

>>51534497
Being a GM can be stressful and all depending on the game, but it's nowhere near as stressful as being a player and having to deal with terrible GMs time and time again. I have no idea how people can stand it.

>> No.51548137
File: 8 KB, 226x223, rufus what am i reading.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51548137

>>51534497
Personally I prefer being a player.
I've got one to two characters I'd like to flush out and it's unsightly to try and do that as a DM

>>51534525
What am i reading?
Why does this read like someone trying to stir cement with their tongue?
Why is narcissism relevant.
I this your native tongue?
Can you phrase this in a way that makes sense?

>> No.51548141

>>51547795
>weeb
It's a fag from /tv/, note his spamming 'cuck' like an absolute spaz.

>> No.51548173

>>51534525
>fun is a cuck measure
>on a game board
wtf

>> No.51548236

>>51547990
>the ONLY metric
I proved earlier that this was equally dumb.

>Anons at the beginning of the thread seemed to believe it's not only meaningful, but also the MOST relevant metric
Kinda is. Nearly.
Was this a game? (yes/no)
Was this game fun? (yes/no)
Was playing this game more fun than running this game? (yes/no)

>> No.51548240
File: 18 KB, 719x585, 5f3bb38543788d170a869427b628f9fabce19fc3b88fbae1e803c07b7bab1ce2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51548240

>>51547921
I don't understand it either. I didn't expect my high-level banter to be so tough to grapple with. The post is perfectly sensible, it's just written at a fever pitch. /tg/ is really disappointing lately.

>>51548003
>Fun can be used comparatively just fine.
The major factors are not only session, but also system, DM & group, which can only be plausibly controlled for locally. Useless to online anonymous discussion.

>Who was triggered by OP's use of the word fun in a comparative way.
Well this is debatable. As I suggested, if OP wasn't a fag (or cuck, t. current year) he'd have used GOOD/BETTER rather than FUN/NOT FUN as his measure. I was triggered because OP was a fag making a garbage thread, it was just a drive-by shitpost but if people are willing to have a discussion on FUN I'm sincerely interested to participate.

>> No.51548267

>>51548005
>I'm not going to listen to a narcissist about how their opinion is infallible.
Good point anon

>> No.51548297

>>51547921
it's actually a pretty valid stance.
Assuming you are a narcissist as defined by the DSM :
You have a self obsessed personality disorder which means all of your actions are designed to add to yourself esteem. All your points will be superficially designed for approval.
and you have mild mindblindness making it harder for you to understand the position of others.
I've lived with argumentative persons my whole life and i must say you would be the most pig headed person to converse with, assuming for your diagnosis to be correct.
>>51548005
>I'm not going to listen to a sociopath
who do you know they are sociopathic?
it's on his word alone that he has one part of the dark tetrad

>> No.51548398

>>51548240
>Useless to online anonymous discussion.
>Discussion of local experience is useless to online anonymous discussion
So you are new in addition to wrong and autistic.

>>Who was triggered by OP's use of the word fun
>Well this is debatable.
>I was triggered
That was a short debate.

>> No.51548419
File: 5 KB, 252x260, 56afb740a8322bb48cf6258b001a599117f81f29712a799576e1f8cd8bfed53c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51548419

>>51548137
>Why is narcissism relevant.
Because I'm suggesting the game would be objectively better if I was in control. Narcissism was an over- exaggeration for effect, it's more simply arrogant self confidence

>Can you phrase this in a way that makes sense?
As I am narcissist, I identify with you in believing that all games I participate in would be better if I ran them, but I disagree with your use of fun as a measure of quality as it is for cucks. However, I think your use of fun is appropriate, because you also share another trait with the kind of person (faggot) who would use 'fun' in the way you did. That trait is using the term "ForeverGM." That you used this term with careful punctuation is even more evidence that you belong to that same camp. It is also emblematic of being a newcomer to this board. Are you new to this board?

>> No.51548424

>>51548240
I'm sorry but this is quite a lot of shit to read through so i will for the sake of brevity just ask you a couple questions
are you:>>51534525
if you are then when you say:
>The major factors are not only session, but also system, DM & group, which can only be plausibly controlled for locally
Is it not that pieces in your statement, the system, the dm/group dynamic,etc as elements only exist to further enjoyment of individuals.
>he'd have used GOOD/BETTER rather than FUN/NOT FUN
If this is the case then is your argument entirely semantic
Fun would be a relative term for enjoyment and in the end we do play things because we enjoy them otherwise we aren't tend to do them for mental healthy reasons

>> No.51548446
File: 47 KB, 500x375, 151d26ba2bf1a26385f06f5a1cbe40b2bc4264aff26170dcd5d3a557edd92d17.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51548446

>>51548398
>Who was triggered by OP's use of the word fun
>I was triggered because OP was a fag making a garbage thread
>same thing

>> No.51548462

>>51535557
I feel you, man.

>> No.51548505

>>51534525
It's like you wrote something in English then google translated through 5 different languages before translating back to English

>> No.51548543
File: 76 KB, 480x720, 1485752833406.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51548543

>>51548424
Yes, that's me.

Understand that the argument I entered is defending my statement that fun is a "cuck measure," not my attack on OP for using it.

>elements only exist to further enjoyment of individuals
No, they exist to form the TTRPG in action. Their motivations for creation can vary wildly. For example, a wargame diligently trying to recreate a historical scenario. Perhaps you can argue every step of the situation involves an element of enjoyment, but is that actually the reason for its existence? Do you believe all artwork is made and received specifically to, and only to, increase the enjoyment of individuals?

>> No.51548570
File: 31 KB, 292x365, 'Kay.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51548570

>>51548419
That was far more clear, even if it was more round about.
you go from indicating you sympathize with op to calling him a neo-marxist cuck to calling him NEW.
seems strange to me but that makes more sense.

>> No.51548579

>>51548446
Debatable

>> No.51548780
File: 279 KB, 500x297, db82feb08a91e7b479e9fd03d20cc2931bdf148a4894e9e35cb8db2d0a7f7a7c.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51548780

>>51548570
The sympathy was sarcastic and a iktf-style opener. Then double whammy! The whole thing is a densely compacted insult. It's a rollercoaster, sure but it's not incomprehensible. Really high quality stuff. VIP shitposting is real.

>> No.51548889

>>51548543
>Is that actually the reason for its existence?
No that anon, but the intention of fun is a reasonable part of the definition of most games but not necessarily artwork.

>> No.51548921

>>51548543
>Do you believe all artwork is made and received specifically to, and only to, increase the enjoyment of individuals?
No, there is no logical way of determining that is true, i can only say it is likely that some art is made only to do what you described. :
Art is gathered however by people who enjoy it, the production is only describing the quality, the utility and the possible target audiences.
there is a reason why there is an audience for fatal and RHW, not a large one, likely a very small one but there is a possible one.
the point is there is a clear emotional attachment to the product. enough to pay for said item.
I wish was better at economics but i believe the phenomenon is marginal utility.
People do not tend to buy hings they do not like, unless the substitution effect is well in effect

>>For example, a wargame diligently trying to recreate a historical scenario.
I personally like this example because i play more wargames then rpgs now a days and i can say earnestly attention to detail is not out of obligation but enjoyment. People enjoy researching the models to get them right, they enjoy the product of a well painted well modeled model and army. and they enjoy playing that game or you will much I have quit the game and collect or move to another. See AoS, and to avoid AoS shitposting remember some people didn't like it and quit. nothing more is reliant.

>Perhaps you can argue every step of the situation involves an element of enjoyment, but is that actually the reason for its existence?
You are sounding more and more like the "relativists" you describe. economically there is a reason why people are NOT using the time spent playing an rpg gathering more resources and that is because they perceive benefit in doing so. I doubt there is many tangible benefits to playing an RPG aside from the abstract emotional attachment.
the thing humans refer to as fun.
So in short, yes, but in a Darwinian sense.
Games that do not sell fail.

>> No.51548990

>>51548543
>>51548921
continuing
people only buy games in largely enough numbers to have it succeed if they they enjoy it.
and if a game fails it ceases to be produced as a viable item, it will dwindle and effectively cease to be.
I'd rather you find me a game made for the express purpose of not producing any enjoyment.

>> No.51549102
File: 384 KB, 800x606, 0707ashc10_600x444.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51549102

>>51548921
In economics, what you're describing as "fun" or "enjoyment" is called value, which is both far less limited (by not being tied purely to emotion) and less ambiguous a term. Enjoyment or fun doesn't describe the nature of artistic and intellectual appreciation except in the most vague sense of being a more positive than negative feeling. I think value is a much more well adjusted alternative.

See: >>51536886 >>51544924 >>51545196
for the demerits of using FUN over Value or Interest, terms I suggested earlier >>51536435

>Games that do not sell fail.
Not true. There are many successful freely released games as well as revived classics that did not get the attention they deserved in their own time.

>> No.51549111
File: 29 KB, 500x715, you are not cool.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51549111

>>51548780
>Really high quality stuff.
No it's pretty lame.

>> No.51549131

>>51534525
I hope we can all pray for this poster to kill himself or die very soon in a very humiliating manner

>> No.51549172
File: 24 KB, 380x281, What's happening now is happening now.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51549172

>>51534525
>>51545054
>Alignment Languages

>> No.51549217
File: 35 KB, 511x486, bark.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51549217

>>51534525
include me in the screenshot desufampai

>> No.51549256
File: 76 KB, 640x553, you know what to do pence.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51549256

>>51549217
dis is getting capped?
this is a shit series of posts
it's one autist against the world

>> No.51549405

>>51549131

I predict it will be intrarectal autoasphyxiation.

>> No.51549683

>>51549256
See
>>51540810

>> No.51549943

>>51545196
your commitment to the meme is commendable, but /v/ memes should probably stay on /v/

>> No.51549961

>>51548990
>I'd rather you find me a game made for the express purpose of not producing any enjoyment.
VTNL or HYBRID, not sure what this is supposed to prove

>> No.51550015

>>51549683
no zoomed words
i am dispointed

>>51549961
you might want to expand that to demonstrate that.
the point it was meant to demonstrate either that it is paradoxical. enjoyment is incidental of the system and people choose systems to fit their preferences/tastes and breed enjoyment.
the idea of a game that is intentionally un-enjoyable to all parties is insane to me.

>> No.51550103

>>51534525
>all those replies
>bait is still somewhat on-topic

You shall be our most auspicious champion, hero.

>> No.51550190
File: 163 KB, 1024x768, 2d8b23cc67958d66dc6a5ff569abe202432f7349dd784f8fd4f1c04656b01ed8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51550190

>>51550015
Just because systems aren't designed specifically with enjoyment as the primary goal doesn't mean they're designed specifically to make them unenjoyable. That said, what reason is there to cling so hard to fun, enjoyable, good-times, etc. and not simply accept interesting or valuable in its place? How can enjoyable or fun account for artistic or intellectual appreciation?

Enjoyment can be stretched to fit anything, I don't deny that, but it's obviously not an accurate description of the interest someone has in many situations. What's the point of all this sophistry? Why resort to such obfuscating measures just to defend the continued use of FUN?

>you might want to expand that to demonstrate that.
Just look them up on 1d4chan
>HYBRID burst into the collective gamers' consciousness in the late 1990s, when a poster using the sobriquet "C++" (later "Matthew") migrated from the comic book newsgroups, and started posting to the Usenet group rec.games.frp.super-heroes. The posts, a series of unrelated and unsequential numbered rules that conflated mathematical equations and racist and sexist screeds into an apparent (and later, stated) attempt to quantify and perfectly describe (perhaps even create) reality using comic book characters as a basis, at first caused disbelief. Yet the sheer unremitting number of posts turned the consensus into amazement and derision, which snowballed into a panoply of mocking replies in any thread that C++ graced. Combined with the almost random way the author replied to entirely unrelated threads, this caused an inenvitable effect: The newsgroup quickly died under the weight of sheer nonsense and his raving horde of anti-fans.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/VTNL
You're right that they're insane

>> No.51550355

>>51547921
the basic problem with most trolls on /tg/ is they don't have staying power. to properly irritate grognards, you must be insistently and continually wrong about something. Most trolls pick easier targets, this guy is just mentally sub normal.

>> No.51550403

>>51535742
never change, /pol/

>> No.51550427

>>51550190
>Just look them up on 1d4chan
no, i am asking you to prove your point.

>Just because systems aren't designed specifically with enjoyment as the primary goal doesn't mean they're designed specifically to make them unenjoyable
i said there, enjoyment is incidental, but curtial. being part of the primary factors for game selection for instance.

one may enjoy in-depth systems, to that i've heard gurps is very popular for those who want to be able to modulate rules.
there are systems like the 5 rings for lethal combat, dnd, all of them for those who want entry level stuff, whrpgs and things similair for those who want to play in a specific setting, etc.
objectively systems are designed to work for a certain type of simulation, coc for example works very well for a lovecraftian horror game in style articulated as far as i can see and dryh and afmbe work for their own miniature genre.

> How can enjoyable or fun account for artistic or intellectual appreciation?

i say enjoyment because that is the less vague ironically way to say fun. or liked or what have you. People play the game because it gives them an emotional emission they enjoy or reluctantly along for the ride because of other. It perfectly encompasses that. high intellectual things do not leap past simple emotion

>What's the point of all this sophistry?
I don't believe i am trying to deceive, assuming malice when you can just point to poor argumentation isn't creditable. despite everything i am not ascribing you poor intentions i'd ask you to do the same.

>> No.51550429
File: 320 KB, 900x1208, kk_page49_900_900_o.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51550429

>>51544552
>Totally unrelated, but do you mind sharing what you thought was cool in this person's game? I'm a sucker for creative dungeons.
Sorry I missed this post. There was a goblin casino, where we'd play out card games with the DM as dealer except they were twists on real games (eg blackjack) and the goblins wouldn't tell us the rules, as well as a little goblin market. I love the idea of games-within-games and just generally doing cool shit goblins. The village also had one otaku goblin collecting "reflective discs" for what we came to realize was obviously a DVD player, he'd pay us good money to bring him any we found in the ruins of a little, ancient town with "alien magic" (80s tech etc) a bit lower in the dungeon. We were all convinced it was anime. I'm definitely going to steal that idea some time. Make him a kind of wizard-shut in but also an otaku, play off both tropes.

Also the town outside the megadungeon was like a gold rush boomtown that sprung up after some people had come out of the dungeon with big loot. I stole this idea and start off my PCs by all crashing into each other's shopping carts at the local Adventure-Mart. I'm generally not big into gonzo except when it's in meshing medieval/modern, there was some other stuff but I'm about to leave for a party so

>>51550355
>implying FUN isn't a nuschool meme that true grognards disregard

>> No.51550541
File: 53 KB, 453x604, 7450300910077bc173fa2ebdb0b122cfd8951eb68a0393df8c705d04cf33b09e.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51550541

>>51550427
>being part of the primary factors for game selection for instance
I don't know, you bring a good point with CoC. Here you will choose the game because it will deliver the horror/creepiness (or investigative style roleplay) you're looking for. That's what you're looking for it to do and that's what it was designed to do. Yes, if it does a good job of that and other factors willing, you'll have an enjoyable time, but that's incidental, it's not why you setup the game or sat down at the table, it's not what you were looking for. You wanted a scary game with lovecraftian undertones, and that it was not an unenjoyable experience is just the basic prerequisite. You also want the players to not be assholes, that doesn't mean you're only playing TTRPG's to find nice players.

> It perfectly encompasses that. high intellectual things do not leap past simple emotion
Imo, it dilutes the experience. Emotion is the base level of experience, and enjoyable is only aspect of emotion. Even if we agreed that intellectual experience is subsumed by emotional experience, it was still be FAR more telling if you asked "How does this game make you feel?" and not "Is this game fun/enjoyable?"

Which is twink as fuck but, well, nu-males will be nu-males

>I don't believe i am trying to deceive, assuming malice when you can just point to poor argumentation isn't creditable
My apologies, I wasn't talking about you, I was addressing /tg/'s choir. Ok but I gotta go now, I'll continue the discussion later

>> No.51551456

>>51550429
Sounds fun.

>> No.51551493

>>51550429
>everyone wants to live in the Tits Mountains
>nobody wants to live in Ass Valley

>> No.51551524
File: 41 KB, 852x480, the best reaction image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51551524

Jesus, this is not what I expected my thread would have become after less than a day.

>> No.51551577

>>51536341
>Captainamerica.gif

>> No.51551648

>>51536552
>implying you can't have both completely isolated

it's called wargaming and story telling

>> No.51551691

>>51545196
Wow, you sound exactly like me.

I'm a raging asshole...

>> No.51551697
File: 122 KB, 625x626, 15.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51551697

>>51534525

>> No.51551728

>>51540810
Think I capped this WAY too early, it clearly kept going long after I left

That said, won't be making a seconf, i'm not that good at it.

>> No.51551733
File: 84 KB, 540x419, anime was a mistake.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51551733

>>51551524

>> No.51552706
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51552706

>>51534525

>> No.51552726
File: 527 KB, 836x512, Frustration.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51552726

>>51551648
>tell anon playing rpgs is a combination of storytelling and gaming rules.
>anon says I'm implying you can't have both completely isolated
>anon says it's called wargaming and story telling
Yes, but neither is playing an rpg, is it?
I need an Excedrin.

>> No.51552825
File: 861 KB, 300x169, 1426529199609.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51552825

>>51534525
Someone is depressed.

>> No.51553034

>>51537324
HAH! That's a funny joke anon.

>> No.51553070

>>51537324
>Love
>Not a form of satisfaction

>> No.51553558

>>51553070
Love that does not transcend base satisfaction of desires is not love at all, but lust.

>> No.51553592

>>51553070
>>51553558
Love is lust perfected to the point their pupils turn heart-shaped. Every expert will confirm this.

>> No.51553699

>>51553592
>Every expert will confirm this.
Will they justify your "love"?

>> No.51553832

>>51553558
"Love" is a human construct used to describe a cocktail of various chemicals in our brain that's meant to give you a sensation that prevented our ancestors from murdering their families before they had time to pass on their genetic code into the next generation.

It has about as much relevance in the grand scheme of the universe as the concept of good and evil.

>> No.51554002 [DELETED] 
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51554002

>>51553832

>> No.51554020
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>>51553832

>> No.51554114

>>51554020
People would honestly have a healthier appreciation for love if they realized how it's all bullshit. Like can you honestly even think of an instance where someone was completely happy with their life simply because they were "in love" with somebody?

>> No.51554150
File: 786 KB, 650x1952, On Romance.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51554150

>>51554114
You're living in a dark world, anon.

>> No.51554165

>>51554114
>Like can you honestly even think of an instance where someone was completely happy with their life simply because they were "in love" with somebody?
Where is it written that love is a magical cure-all for all of life's problems?
Okay, in Hollywood.
But not in reality.

I'm going to let you know something you have no way of knowing:
Love doesn't solve any of life's problems, it make life worth living despite life's problems.
What makes your life worth living?

>> No.51554233

>>51554150
>Greeks are the masters of romantic tragedy
>Most stories involve rape, bestiality, homosexuality, torture, and forced transformation
That's rich, I'm going to save this pasta.
>>51554165
>Where is it written that love is a magical cure-all for all of life's problems?
Never said it was, quite the opposite really. Everyone is chasing after someone, hoping to be the missing piece to their fractured life when the only one who truly loves you is yourself.

Because if that wasn't the case, then how could one expect someone to love them when they can't even love themselves?

>> No.51554247
File: 143 KB, 833x696, 1485551488118.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51554247

>>51534525
What did he even do wrong? All he said was that having fun as the player is for cucks and that he likes to be the DM. There is absolutely nothing weird about this post other than the replies.

>> No.51554359

>>51554233
What you posted suggested that love not making a person completely happy with their life meant that love was "all bullshit."
Perhaps you meant something else was bullshit, but if so, it is unclear.

>> No.51554420

>>51554359
I'm saying that people who pursue love for the sake of love are the type of people who will never be happy because they seek validation from others rather than finding validation within themselves.

Like holy shit man, some people will practically kill themselves just to maintain a toxic relationship with people who do not have their best interest at heart just because they love them a lot.

If people realized that love was all bullshit and that they can only find happiness through themselves, they'd stop wasting time chasing fairy tales and start to work on things that will allow them to become better people who WOULD be worthy of finding love.

>> No.51554460
File: 314 KB, 1000x1000, 63b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51554460

>>51554247
It's tumblr posters. You don't notice them normally because they're bred into cancer in the confines of certain generals, I'm not sure which, though my guess is 3.pf, but sometimes they get really desperately triggered when someone steps on their shoes on anything regarding philosophy of play. They always resort to the same roundabout group shaming tactics and psychoanalytical character attacks, dodging around the actual points made.

Try suggesting a DM should never fudge dice in a non-general thread and watch them rear their ugly head.

>> No.51554529

>>51554460
I know this is off-topic but most games of D&D I've played where the DM rolled openly, when we were all level 1 characters, usually never last for more than a month or two at most before either everyone loses interest or we've gone through so many characters that we're not even the same party anymore.

In games with dice pools or ways to skew the results through rerolls or adding dice, that's one thing, but for a game that's as swingy as D&D it;s usually better to fudge if the alternative is a newbie eating a crit to the face and dying before they've even had a chance to get a feel for their character.

>> No.51554538

>>51554460
Okay sure.
>>51554527

>> No.51554600

>>51554420
To use a bad analogy where love is like a job, your post is saying:
>Working a thankless job that is killing them just because it's a job is a bad thing and people would be better off if they realized that jobs were all bullshit.
See how the first part makes sense, then the second part goes too far?

Pursuing love to the point of your own detriment is pointless, bad, and wrong.
But that doesn't mean love is not all bullshit.

>> No.51554613

>>51554600
>But that doesn't mean love is not all bullshit.
But that doesn't mean love is all bullshit
I forgot to delete that second "not"

>> No.51555053

>>51554460
I figured it's because what he wrote is disjointed and confusing along with having whistle words in it.

>> No.51556483

>tfw generally agree with the idea that fun isn't the most important element in a game
>tfw this is the wrong idea to go about explaining that idea

Raggi got shit on for writing an article in DEFENSE of his 'unfun' games and DM philosophy (though that could've just been RPGnet faggots), dunno what you were expecting by coming into a thread not on the topic of 'fun' in TTRPGs and REEEEEing about it.

>> No.51556839

>>51556483
>generally agree with the idea that fun isn't the most important element in a game
This is actually been established as a reasonable position in this thread. The insanity lies in the more extreme positions.

>> No.51556876

>>51556839
I mean, isn't the guy arguing just going over semantics? He's more or less paraphrasing Jim Raggi's 'I Hate Fun' article, and the fact that he was using B/x makes me think he's at least heard of it.

http://lotfp.blogspot.com/2008/06/i-hate-fun.html?zx=6484bb103d9dec91

Even then, Raggi doesn't actually hate fun, he just hates that mechanics and details that he personally loves are seen as 'ancient' and 'unfun'.

>> No.51558116

>>51554600
>>51554613
Yet and still, people will kill themselves pursuing a dead-end relationship because they believe that it'll lead to happy ending.

If everyone stopped idealizing the idea of love and treated it like bullshit, the strong majority of people would end up being happier for it. They'd treat the end of a relationship as a temporary fling and move about their lives, focusing on the things that really matter to them, whether it's a hobby or self-improvement.

>> No.51558875

>>51550541
>using the words "cuck", "numale", and "twink" in conplete seriousness

Don't bother killing yourself, just stay where you are; a summary termination squad will be arriving shortly.

>> No.51558909

>>51558875
Twink is actual gay slang, though the way anon uses it doesn't make any bloody sense. Which, given the rest of his posts, isn't a huge surprise.

>> No.51558930

>>51534525
>Antisocial-Personality-Disorder, the post

Get therapy, dude.

>> No.51559110

>>51558909
>implying cuck and numale don't have their uses
They're just incredibly overused. Thankfully, overall it's seem to have died down a bit.

>> No.51559266
File: 63 KB, 480x608, hypocrite that you are.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51559266

>>51553832
>>51554114

>> No.51559274

ITT some illiterate /pol/ tard doesn't know what fun is

>> No.51559305

>>51559274
He's VERY literate though, he's got a thesaurus and dictionary close at hand clearly

>> No.51559417

>>51559266
You can prove that the chemicals in the mind exist and serve to produce specific emotions though. This is common medical knowledge.

>> No.51560197

>>51559417
Is this truth, or is this what the chemicals in your brain are telling you?

Honestly though, I'm just following this thread from afar, and I posted the pic because I think it's funny and relevant. I'm kinda curious about your position.
I disagree with >>51537175 and agree with you that fun is a form of satisfaction, but not all satisfaction is fun, even if this whole semantics debate is kind of silly.
But if you do not play RPGs for fun, what other feeling of satisfaction are you looking for? Social satisfaction? Comfort? Aesthetic satisfaction? Artistic satisfaction?

>> No.51560289
File: 341 KB, 750x2880, Dwarf_Fortress_fun.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51560289

>>51560197
The issue is that apparently satisfaction is within the realm of fun. And, apparently, if you're doing something fun you might as well jerk off because that's better anyways. It's probably a highly-effective troll just knocking on the grognard sensibilities of fun.
>pic related

>> No.51560315

>>51560197
>Is this truth, or is this what the chemicals in your brain are telling you?
No, this is medically documented in several scientific and medical journals based around the idea of behavioral and mental health.

We've even produced drugs that simulate the effects of these chemicals to help those who have an imbalance that leads to shit like manic-depression or schizophrenia.

Denying that they exist is like denying the existence of germs and viruses.

>> No.51560362

>>51560289
Yeah, I understand that, but what reasons do you have for playing RPGs other than fun? What motivates your criticism of fun-as-the-primary-motivation? Should we seek a higher form of satisfaction? If so, why?

>>51560315
I'm just shitposting, anon, I don't really believe this. (But I do believe it's wrong to conclude that our feelings being chemicals means they cannot be anything more.)

>> No.51560883

>>51560362
Fun is obviously the main motivation of any hobby anyone has. However, the issue is that 'fun' is often used by certain people to describe subjective game design, and primarily whining about systems that are often more lethal/with more underpowered characters than other systems (IE, B/x is 'unfun' compared to 5e).

Basically, 'badwrongfun'. People that play more lethal games with more dire consequences

>> No.51563284

>>51545196
Fun is not a buzzword you raging retard. It doesn't ruin critical discussion. Fun is enjoyment and interest, your commitment to specific semantic definitions that only exist in your head is a clear indication you're either a living caricature of a sperglord or you're merely pretending.

I hope you realize how ridiculous you fucking sound. Commitment to a spontaneously created story? Intellectual and artistic integrity? It's a game of make believe for fuck's sake that requires you to roll dice. It's not art. It's not an intellectual pursuit. It's a game, you're like those fucking lunatics who actually believe video games are art.

You're not an adult for looking down on someone. You're a condescending prick.

>> No.51564631
File: 498 KB, 360x360, ImgurHakumeiGif.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51564631

dont mind me, just using the thread to test something

>> No.51564648
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>>51564631

>> No.51564664
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>>51564648

>> No.51564680
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>>51564664
cool im done

>> No.51564694
File: 1.50 MB, 250x233, 1485279920839.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51564694

>>51534525
> the sentence
> the gif

>> No.51565343

>>51534934
>marxism
>subjetivist
>everything is an "opinion"
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

>> No.51565881

>>51535083
Uh, just because making out with a bunch of children is the only thing you can imagine to be enjoying...

>> No.51565942

>>51535477
Nigga, we're all following the most base distractions. A very small percent of humanity is actually devoted to keeping us going and advancing, and the rest of us are just running a vast infrastructure of meaningless bullshit.

>> No.51565958

>>51536435
>I wouldn't exactly call wondering about a girl's panties fun.
FAG

>> No.51566088

>>51552726
And both are fun. What point were YOU trying to make?

>> No.51566111
File: 12 KB, 248x250, Hi-res-Angorodon's_Gaze.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51566111

>>51534525
>fun is a cuck measure

>> No.51567830
File: 331 KB, 517x768, 1444782058672.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
51567830

>>51554538

>> No.51569579

>>51536552
>>51566088
>And both are fun. What point were YOU trying to make?
My rather obvious point was this:
Like how gaming rules and storytelling are both important elements that combine to form playing an rpg, fun, or the intention of fun, is an important element of a game, but combines with other important elements to form the game.
Fun is not the only important element to any game.

I am now out of Excedrin.

>> No.51570207

Bumping in hopes someone screencaps this autism

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