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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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[ERROR] No.44354180 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Have you ever included a secret class in your games that was necessary to use some of the core equipment of the setting, but didn't tell your players about it until they'd built their characters and the game was underway?

>> No.44354232

No, and I don't think anyone else has either.

>> No.44354263

>>44354180
>Have you ever included a secret class in your games that was necessary to use some of the core equipment of the setting, but didn't tell your players about it until they'd built their characters and the game was underway?

No, that sounds like a horrible, annoying and passive aggressive thing to do.

>> No.44354281

This comic is such shit.

>> No.44354305

>>44354281
It's like "how not to run a game 101"

>> No.44354346

>>44354180
No. That would require too much work and setup with no payoff for me or my players.

My setting does have some "standard races" (relatively populous, sapient races) that players aren't allowed be be purely due to logistics. The most cosmopolitan race is a species of aquatic giants with jellyfish-like composition that can't survive above water for more than a few hours. They are huge, important, and water-bound, which makes them unsuited to adventures with the other races.

>> No.44354476

>>44354180
The only thing I've done that even comes near is when I GM mortals in WoD since I like when they start out clueless about Real supernatural stuff. But the players will usually have the opportunity to buy magic/abilities in the later stages of the campaign.

But the GM in TT seems like a cunt, hidden classes and invulnerable DMNPC galore!

>> No.44354572

>>44354281
I wish OP actually disliked this comic so he wouldn't make a new thread about it every time they post an update.

>> No.44354631

>>44354180
>"having" to "make up" NPC classes
>NPCs can't just do whatever I need them to do to serve the story
3aboos strike again.

>> No.44354684

>>44354572
>>44354281
Not OP but im fucking fascinated by this shitshow. I found it through /tg/ and cringed my way through some of it and now I'm stuck. Fore some reason i wanna see more of what this guys considers to be good storytelling/roleplaying and laugh at the ''dramatic characters'' and cringy players.

>> No.44354718

>>44354684
Your post reads like that of a shill trying to perform damage control. You might want to ease up a little.

>> No.44354746

>>44354180
No, but I've seen a guy do it.

>> No.44354771

>>44354631
What if I just like things running on a consistent set of rules, even if it's rules I came up with?

That being said OP, that sounds like something that would work better in a videogame.

>> No.44354795

>>44354718
/tg/ really likes to post things it hates. The same stuff occurs with every Goblins update and used to occur when Dominic Deegan was still active.

>> No.44354814

>>44354572
>>44354572
Actually, OP probably doesn't like it. It's a common shitposting tactic to post something you hate everyday to engender a negative knee-jerk reaction among anons.

>> No.44354866

>>44354814
>he's faking us out by pretending to fake like something he pretends to fake hate, but he actually fake hates it for real
How far does 4chan paranoia go?

>> No.44354895

>>44354866
I've stopped trying to grasp what ''yomi''-level 4chan trolls exist on these days.

>> No.44354904

>>44354795
Dominic Deegan....

Remember when that had potential?
I do.
Then nothing happened.

>> No.44354915

>>44354180
I worked on a class inspired by Zhen Lu's art. It was rather hard to make as massive bonuses and absolute defenses against kaiju are hard to balance. The downside of the class is that it requires absolute dedication, and that your proficiencies in all other weapons are suspended until you hit the capstone.

I don't have the details of it anymore, the idea was quickly scrapped since it wasn't that good or fun to play.

>> No.44354917

>>44354895
The thing with Sirlin (I've only played his flash website game, not Yomi, though) is basically that it comes down to the two same choices isn't it? Like they either are or aren't but you can go through an endless cycle of analysing which it might be?

>> No.44354937

>>44354904
>Remember when that had potential?
No

>> No.44354951

>have you ever created an experimental prestige class for your homebrew setting that your players could pick up later in the story?

>> No.44354997

>>44354917
Yomi layers basically describes what level of ''feints'' and mindgames you're working on.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/7-spies-of-the-mind

>> No.44355308

>>44354866
Wether or not you believe, it exists. I've seen it before.

Mark my words. Next update there will be a new thread posing a question related to the content of the strip, yet makes no overt mention of the comic in any way other than using it as an OP image.

>> No.44355464

>>44354180
The degree to which this is a dick move really depends on the rigidity of "classes". Under a 3.pf model it isn't a huge deal. Under a 1e/2e/4e/5e model it is tree trunk level dickery.

Were I to consider such limits, they would not be secret class based. Most editions of D&D allow for "only used by" limits by race, class, or religion. Items I don't want to leave in PC hands will be coded to monsters or religions, both of which are far more reasonable as secrets.

>> No.44355475

>>44354866
I main board /toy/ and that place is constantly getting shittreaded by one bandodgeing retard with a mountain sized hateboner for the Star Wars Figuarts line and 3A. Every few hours he farts out another one pretending to shill those lines just to try and make people hate them instead of him.

It happens... in this case its happening so much it's almost ruining the board...

>> No.44355532

>>44354904
>Dominic Deegan....
>Remember when that had potential?
No. It was just puns after puns.

>> No.44355564

>>44355532
Puns and plot holes so big you could drive through them.

>> No.44355578

>>44354180
>"you have a gun pointed in your face"
>"Who cares? Worst case scenario I take 1d12 damage or some shit"

>> No.44355637

>>44355532
Literally only the first chapter. But yeah, I remember.

>> No.44355642

>>44354795
>>44354904
>>44354937
>>44355532
>>44355564

I think the most horrifying thing about Dominic Deegan (besides the terrible writing and so forth) is that even though it ran from 2002 to 2013

The art never really got that much better.

Guy draws Dominic Deegan for fucking 11 years and doesn't show any signs of drastic improvement.

I draw.
I draw stuff.
The thought of drawing for 11 years on a daily basis and not improving horrifies me.

>> No.44355665

>>44355637
How long was the first chapter? because I remember that shit being all that it was.

>> No.44355680

>>44355578
Unless there's some ridiculous exploding dice rule in effect if they roll high, like some fantasy firearms rules like to do. Once a GM's rolling with a special secret class only their NPCs have access too, all bets are off.

>> No.44355695

>>44355642
The question is whether you are drawing to convey something or is it merely a process. Artists get better when they attempt to convey something for whatever they are going for.

I assume those that don't improve at all are doing it for the sake of putting characters down for words and have no sense of purpose for the art.

>> No.44355717

>>44355680

Best case scenario: he instantly kills your character, and you get to leave a game ran by a shitty GM
Worst case scenario: You slap the guy's shit and get a sweet new gun.

>> No.44355803

>>44355695
>The question is whether you are drawing to convey something or is it merely a process.

That's a really motivating thought process, Anon.

Thank you.

>> No.44355805

>>44354180
No, but I will use obscure ones or strange builds to surprise them, like Halfling Warslinger or Beguiler.

>> No.44355833

>>44354180
Well, at least he's not using the secret class to make extra special DMPC. Or is he?

>> No.44355931

>all this hate

Whatever happened to /tg/ having an imagination? God damn, are you all just a bunch of jackasses whining because you didn't get to play as this one class, the details of which are unknown to you, which you do not even know if you even want to play as? Maybe, just maybe, there's a reason that the DM didn't tell you? Maybe he wants to create a story, not baby's-first-freeform. Also, if the DM's willing to make this sort of thing up, then maybe he's willing to make other things up so that the lack of this one class isn't a problem for the group. It could even be that it IS a problem for the group, and that's something they have to overcome as a challenge to make things more interesting. Does everything have to be handed to you on a silver platter, are you going to need to be given a special sticker and a ribbon for winning?

Oh sure, the DM could just be being a gigantic douche, but maybe you could stop assuming the worst for five seconds, and see that not everyone is out to get you.

>> No.44356022

>>44355931
...Don't you have homework to do during your holiday?

>> No.44356041

>>44355931

The real problem is why these faggots should get everything NPCs get
>Describe how an evil Wizard BBEG can break a law of magic
>OMG WHY CAN'T I DO THAT? DMPC ALERT!

>> No.44356087

>tfw you will never be able to draw
>you will never have a webcomic people want to read for the story and lore and characters

>> No.44356097

>>44356041
> Fighting acolytes of a death god
> In a death god's church.
> With the head priest one floor below them with an artifact.
> Kill one.
> Another attacks and then shouts an incantation and the first comes together as a zombie
> Player: "Hey! How can they cast animate dead and attack in the same round?"

>> No.44356268

No. If it's core equipment, they should know beforehand so the players show up with appropriate characters.

[Spoiler]I don't play leveled games[/spoiler]

>> No.44356319

>>44356097

Its a quickened Animate Dead. He used a special material component to quicken it, but you don't know that because you didn't roll Spellcraft.

>> No.44356519

>>44356319
>you don't know that because you didn't roll Spellcraft.
>not calling for a spellcraft check to know what he's doing
>Regardless of their stats or skills, PCs are ignorant fumbling retards unless their players constantly interrupt the game to declare knowledge and perception rolls.

>> No.44357296

>>44354180
I play classless games.

>> No.44357336

>>44354180

This is especially amusing because a few pages earlier they were cursing their lack of ranged weapons.

Table Titans is an amazing example of how to run shitty campaigns.

>> No.44357347

>>44356041
>Single special person breaks the laws of magic, which is likely the focal point of the campaign the players are trying to stop
>NPCs have equipment that is widely known and recognized in the setting

Yes, these things are completely alike.

>> No.44357481

>>44354180
No, because traditional games aren't videogames.

Also
>classes
hue

>> No.44357557

I guess there's a "secret class" if you can call it that in the setting i am making and the system i am modifying for it. Ironically, given the image, it is rune magic, which is "secret" because there's only one fucking guy on the planet who knows how to use it (as the technique comes from another plane), and if the players meet up with him it's exceptionally likely only as a BBEG. That said, "classes" in the system are only different in what skills are cheaper on char-gen; theoretically speaking anyone could master every skill (so long as they have the points and stats for it). Rune magic would require you to actually train under that guy, and spend points doing it. But to join the guy you pretty much have to be willing to bring the Apocalypse, so i reckon my players would want to kill him instead.

>> No.44357631

>>44357347
>PCs start the game not knowing anything about a technology that is widely known in the setting

>> No.44357661

>>44354180
>Have you ever included a secret class
Dozens. Can't have secret societies and remote monasteries without esoteric knowledge and mystical abilities that result from it.

>necessary to use some of the core equipment of the setting
As a certain category of exotic weapons? Yes.

As a certain type of widespread technology? What kind of a cretin would think making this a 'secret' is a good idea?

>didn't tell your players about it until [...] the game was underway
Secret societies and esoteric orders are secret and esoteric for a goddamn reason.

>> No.44357686

>>44354180
No, what kind of cunt would do something like that?

>> No.44357691

>>44354180

I've had a shitty NPC classes that existed only to create magical items and minor workings. I've never had 'secret classes' that are as powerful or more powerful than PC classes.

My thinking is that you need someone to make and maintain all that magical shit, and real Wizards like the PCs or real Fighters are insanely rare. It's like how Exalted has people with 'Enlightened Essence', but are shittier than Exalted in every way.

>> No.44357709

>>44354951
Underrated post.
Not that OP isn't correct or that the comic isn't bad, but context means a lot.

>> No.44357739

>>44357661
I don't think we're talking about a secret society though. Those guys are expected to have weird abilities and items the players don't readily have access too. Though they damn well better be able to reverse engineer or learn those abilities if they want to after meeting said society.

But this case seems to be weapons that are readily available that the PCs can't use because the GM doesn't want them playing the class that uses them. It's like banning magic users and then sending nothing but Wizards at the party.

>> No.44357757

>>44357739
Well, yes, and I agree that the GM who would do that is a cunt of the highest caliber.
On the other hand, 'secret classes' as a concept aren't inherently bad if your system permits multiclassing or is classless (in which case the equivalent is as skillset not taught anywhere else).

>> No.44357782

>>44356041

Actually, I have to say this. This is mainly a problem for 3E onwards. See, in 2E, there were a lot of exceptions to the rule. In fact, EVERYTHING was an exception to the rule. For instance, Ravenloft has one scene where Van Ritchen is so worked up, in such a frenzy of hatred, that he strikes as a monk.

I'm not joking. He hits with 1d6 plus strength bonus with each fist, and he has a Monk's Thaco and a Barbarian's rage. And this is a middle-aged man who is mainly a Rogue. Then in the Hall of Heroes, you have stuff like Drizzt (who is so skilled with swords, he has a unique gimmick with it - 'True Ambidexterity) and so on.

Now, in 3.5E, everything was more firmly codified. A person did things because he had a specific feat, and shit was equal. Everything was more 'modular', so to speak. The main problem is that most of the NPC-unique stuff is way better than what the PCs get, and then you have a problem.

It's like if you give enemies swordsmanship perks that imitate spell-like abilities. I, as a PC, would go: "What the fuck? He can slash the air so hard it's a magic missile? How can I learn to do that?"

>> No.44357806

I don't play games with classes.

>> No.44357854

>>44357782
That's because of a change in philosophy. 2e was, as 5e seems to be, built on the concept of trust and shared goal between the players and the DM. Dm had the final ruling and could make shit up as they wished because the assumption was tha they're not there to fuck over the players. They were expected, and trusted, to run a game that was fair. 3e DMs are not. The philosophy is that the rules are there to police both DMs and players, a task at which they fail.

>> No.44357883

>>44354180

I have... sort of. Back in 2e dungeons and dragons I had a group of ancients who had their own special form of magic, and it was required to use some of the plot devices. A big part of the plot was finding these people and then convincing them to help, despite their severe apathy and weariness for having so many years behind them.

I could have done all this without devising a system, but they also met an NPC fairly early in the campaign who was a novice at this sort of magic (something of a young ancient), and given she wasn't suffering from the apathy curse, they convinced her to tag along in order to make the plot devices easier to handle. At that point I needed to devise a set of rules to keep ancient magic reasonably on par with regular magic. (I also kept the NPC a few levels below that of the party to act mainly in a supportive manner).

There was nothing stopping the PCs from picking up levels in this class, they just never bothered. They had their own established roles and were set on using them.

>> No.44357887

>>44357806
You most likely still have some form of character building though so PCs are distinguishable from each other in terms of abilities.

>> No.44358998

>Not handling black-powder guns the same way as crossbows

It's like the DM wants to do extra and pointless work.

>Not letting players use the new weapon group that they're all interested in

It's like the DM wants to do extra and pointless work for absolutely nobody's benefit.

>> No.44359032

>>44357854

Call me a plebian, but I kind of like it when everyone's playing on the same book. It's like Exalted: Exalted is actually a very, very mechanistic setting. Everything is stated out, and has specific rules. Even the godlike Yozis are governed by them.

In fact, the ultimate villain's abilities can actually be learned by the protagonists. Sure, it would fuck you over really badly, but you CAN do it. It's a quantifiable force. It's not GM fiat - It's a thing bound by strict rules.

>> No.44359076

>>44357782
>>44357854
this is why i liked point-based 'classless' games and such, since it's pretty easy to just stat out an ability like that and give it a point value so that if a player does go 'oh shit i want to be able to do that' they, well, they can.
like in my current GURPS campaign i've got a planned enemy that will be able to ricochet bullets off of walls to shoot people around cover, and i know sure as fuck that at least one of the players are going to want to learn that shit so i've given it a point value and everything.

>> No.44359120

>>44359032
It's a false binary. Nothing precludes the GM from allowing the PCs to learn the abilities of their opponent, and nothing precludes the GM from using the same mechanics for both. The assumption is that even if the GM breaks rules or introduces additional ones, they will do so with due consideration to rule 0. The difference is that they are allowed and encouraged to build new elements of the mechanics using the guidelines given.

>> No.44359195

>You have a gun pointed in your face
She's an elf bitch, like she knows what the fuck that is
Just go to shank a bitch for shoving a weird pipe on a stick at you

Can't intimidate the clueless

>> No.44359261

>>44354180
Holy cluck, it's That DM the webcomic.
Not only should people not play in these jerkasses games, but you should reduce their books and dice from them.

>> No.44359282

I feel like I should point out that the players in the comic were given character sheets. They didn't pick their classes or go through chargen.
Not that that doesn't open up a totally new can of worms but does sort of explain how they didn't know about the pseudo-gunslinger class.

>> No.44359343

>>44359282
So they're basically playing a game of that old D&D cartoon?

>> No.44359356

>>44357631
>PCs start the game not knowing anything about a technology that is widely known in the setting
>"Your knowledge of the land shall be great!"

>> No.44359369

I fucking hate this neutered, limp-wristed, geek-chic SJW-lite fagshow of a comic and I want the human bean-bag-chair who writes it to fucking keel over from a dorito-dust-clogged artery like, right fucking now.

>> No.44359478

>>44354180
No because that would be bad.

>> No.44359481

>>44359369
>neutered, limp-wristed, geek-chic SJW-lite fagshow
>human bean-bag-chair who writes it to fucking keel over from a dorito-dust-clogged artery like, right fucking now.

>> No.44359511

>>44354180
I'll try to recap in character.

Closest was when our campaign took us into the grim darkness of the far future. After killing some spider-snake things we checked their lair and found some sort of iron golem half-giant construct that had been torn in half, but wasn't quite dead somehow. We tried looting it's gear after some exposition, but it was all too big. Our part was four Humans and an Elf, who the ... thing tried to spit acid at. Not the spider snake things, the golem thing. Right at his face when he offered to try pray for healing its' flesh bits. Big WTF moment.

It's attendants had all been slain, they had muskets of scorching ray, and between them we managed to salvage a suit of their cloth armour. Couldn't cut through it with my throwing daggers, but Detect Magic came up blank. That shit was all sorts of useful for my Bard/Sorcerer diplomancer, though I was at -1 to-hit for trying to operate the muskets.

After that we found what I can only describe as a steamless-tank. One roll of a 20 on Bardic Knowledge and we weren't walking anywhere anymore if we could help it.

>> No.44359513

>>44359481
>n-no bully
>this is my safe space
>why can't you be more body positive?
>at least on le reddit we don't have to deal with BIGOTS

You are such a fag.

>> No.44359560

>>44359513
This isn't your average everyday autism

>> No.44359659

>>44354180
I like how nobody is mentioning that if the players beat whoever-the-fuck they're fighting and take their guns, the DM implies that they wouldn't be able to use them anyway.

I dunno man, that just seems like icing on the turd cake.

>> No.44359672

>>44357782
>3e onwards
>4e gives npcs abilities not available to PCs, and the book encourages DMs making NPCs to get even more ridiculous

Dividing D&D into "2e and earlier" and "3e and later" is usually smart, but in this case 3e is just unique.

Also, the issue is with the setting; players should have access to the in character knowledge that guns exist, if they're used commonly.

>> No.44359683

>>44359659
Well the dorf is a runewielder.
I guess he could use it badly, like a ranger being given a gun? Except the Ranger in this case is a dual melee type and not even a ranged ranger.

Yeah it sucks.

>> No.44359695

Firearms in my setting basically work like Backbiter Spears. They're like much more powerful crossbows, but if you roll a natural 1 they backfire and damage the user. Of the NPCs that use firearms, a fraction have a special ability to not have a firearm explode in their hands on a natural 1. A PC who's interested can trade off a class ability in exchange for the same NPC special ability.

>> No.44359719

>>44354180
>how to not use class system

>> No.44359806

>>44359513
If you thought your first year on 4chan has been crazy, just wait until you've been here a while!

>> No.44359889

I know that the comic gets a lot of shit because the DM assigns his players their characters, and while I'd hate to just be given a character, one of the most fun characters I've ever played was a prebuilt.

Now, I did get to choose which prebuilt I played as (and nobody else wanted him, which was cool) so I got to still play something I wanted to play, which is ultimately what's important.

>> No.44359909

>>44355931
If the DM's story revolves around him not telling you about major facets of the universe until they are literally pointed at your face, then telling you he has no rules for those facets, he is a shit GM both from a storyteller and a rules judge perspective.

>> No.44359931

>>44354180
Seems legit if it's a prestige class type thing, that you can choose to take a level in when you next advance.

If it requires a full core class then that's shit.

>> No.44359942

>>44359282
No, that explains why none of them are 'musketeers'. It doesn't explain why none of them have any idea what a gun is, despite it being a part of the setting and an extension of the rune-based weapons of other kinds that they know about.

>> No.44359980

>>44359931
If it's common in the setting, you should at least be aware of it though. If for no other reason than just role playing correctly.
If there is electricity in a setting and you pack tar coated torches for your expedition your character just looks like a prat for not packing an flashlight. If there are guns you look a little silly getting a lance and warhorse.
If there's a secret order of chi-manipulating monks in a low fantasy setting, the players don't need to know because their characters wouldn't know that. Later on they can encounter the monastery and maybe take a level in Chi Sorcerer or whatever.

>>44359942
Sorry, wasn't clear. I meant it explains why the players didn't know. They SHOULD know, yes. But it wasn't meant to be a secret.

>> No.44360114

>>44359261
Its not just the DM
Its the whole group who are cunts

>> No.44360177

I inform my players before hey make characters that here's a campaign specific class ONE of them could try. Makes no sense to have everyone play a homebrew class.

>> No.44360179

>>44354180

Shas'o did this for our Deathwatch game. He introduced 3 or 4 new 30k specializations into our 40k game a few sessions in, to our surprise.

Thing is, he offered a "respec" into the specialization, where we'd do harsh training under the one who was familiar with those specializations, drop the old spec, and become the new one (like, Tactical Marine to Seeker Marine). Most of us were content with where we were though, and chose not to use the new basic specializations.

Though, he also made an advanced 30k specialization, and at least one of us jumped on that one.

>> No.44360433

I would immediately attack the gun guys.
If the gun is shit, great I win and fuck with the incoming railroad.

If the gun is great, sweet I die, and then I can make a musketeer and be overpowered.

>> No.44360544

>>44354180
A while back I was running a "classic fantasy" setting for a game. Kings, knights, giants, evil witches innawoods, the whole shebang. I wanted to do a related campaign where the players are part of an expedition sponsored by the crown to explore the realms beyond the sea.

There, they would find a barren wasteland with stretches of fertile land being fought over by a devil-worshiping empire with warrior priests and dark magic and slavery and stuff, fighting a confederation of smaller states (mostly democracies and republics if they got formal enough) from a place where magic is fucked and they rely on mundane tech and alchemy, so they field guns and stuff.

>> No.44362000

>The single most important NPC (who is actually a PC, but not really) is literally random and dictated by a person who has literally no capability to comprehend their choices

Great campaign, would play, 10/10.

>> No.44362203

>>44354866
>How far does 4chan paranoia go?

A paranoid person is just someone in possession of all the facts.

>> No.44362243

>>44362203
Or he's a narcissistic little freak desperate to believe he's more important then he really is.

>> No.44362288

>>44354180
Is this guy SUPPOSED to be a shit GM?

Because he's shit.

>> No.44362316

>>44355642
>Guy draws Dominic Deegan for fucking 11 years and doesn't show any signs of drastic improvement.
He actually commented on that. He said he didn't want the art in that comic to get better because then it would "stop feeling like Dominic Deegan".

The art actually got worse over time, as character designs and faces got less and less distinct.

>> No.44362332

>>44362243

That's not a bad fit for who I was quoting. Spider Jerusalem.

>> No.44362451

>>44354180
No, but one of my old GMs did that. He told us to use the PHB only for character creation, then threw dozens of Tome of Battle Initiators at us as enemies. All of the equipment that we found in-game was designed to be useful for Initiators (mainly Warblades and Crusaders) so there were lots of sets of enchanted heavy armour, enchanted exotic weapons, and stuff that boostes the effectiveness of maneuvers.

I should mention that the party was a Rogue, a Monk, and a Bard, so you can probably imagine how well we fared against them. Oh, and he banned us from multiclassing, or from taking feats not in the PHB, so we never got to use any of the shit he gave us.

>> No.44362572

>>44359356
>"What's a paladin?"

>> No.44362681

>>44362451
>Oh, and he banned us from multiclassing, or from taking feats not in the PHB, so we never got to use any of the shit he gave us.
Should have just retired your original characters and rolled up a bunch of Tier 1 and 2 casters then.

>> No.44362821

>>44362681
He literally refused to let us retire characters, he said if we were tired of playing them we could play in a different game. He also refused to kill any of our characters, he'd always knock us to -1 hit points and auto-stabilize us. The Bard literally never ended a combat encounter with positive hit points. We left the game eventually, after WAY too many sessions only because he was the only GM within 25 kilometers.

>> No.44362840

>>44362821

That sounds like the worst kind of hell.

At the very least you could be sure that if you did brazenly stupid shit you still wouldn't die.

>> No.44362841

>>44362243
>the old accuse-them-of-being-arrogant trick
It's remarkable how accusations like "pride" and "self-important" and "overinflated ego" can be equally applicable to pretty much any behavior imaginable.

Or rather, equally inapplicable.

>> No.44362892

I make custom archetypes for my NPCs all the time. I made a archetype for the pathfinder gunslinger based on the WHFB ogre leadbelchers that my PC's couldn't take (since Pathfinder ogres are inbred hillbilly rapists I felt that obsession with using the biggest guns they could find made sense in-setting). Since my players were not ogres and were not experts on ogres (it was a pirate setting), it wasn't an option I extended to them.

Yeah, the GM can ruin it by keeping all the cool toys to himself and use them to show off to the players how much cooler the NPCs are than them, but when used correctly there's nothing wrong with giving the PCs a unique challenge.

>> No.44362919

>>44354180
>late medieval/early renaissance time period
>introduce musketeers
>immediately jump to tricornes and 18th century flintlocks

16th and 17th centuries get no love.

>> No.44362954

>>44362892
Why do you need to make a class to do that?

>> No.44362958

>>44362840
The problem was the GM didn't understand how to play without rails (or how to hide them well). He literally wrote out each scene in order, with the outcome of each encounter planned out. If a villain was meant to escape, literally nothing could stop them from doing so. If an enemy was meant to die, but 2/3 of the party was unconscious, he would literally fail every single attack roll intentionally until the last character finally won the fight. If the party was supposed to surrender, he'd make up bullshit spells and throw them at us if we even TRIED to fight back.

There was no failure state in the campaign, only roadblocks we were intended to defeat no matter the results of the dice. By the 4th session my character had gone from laid-back adventurer to balls-to-the-wall aggressive, because the only downside to it was getting KOed and having to wait for the rest of the party to win without me.

>> No.44362968

>>44362892
Only ogres can want to have the biggest possible gun? Do Ogres have some kind of special gland that secretes special gunpowder that leadbelchers use? Do they use weapons that only ogre hands can handle and can not be resized to medium creatures/enlarged slinger can't handle it for some reason?

If not, there's no reason to restrict them to Ogres (nor is there a reason to make it a PRC/archetype at all). You can make it so shitty that only your hillbilly ogres want to take it tho.

>> No.44363132

>>44362958
Sounds extremely annoying.

>> No.44363904

>>44362954
Pathfinder. Guns are shit and you need the gunslinger class to make them work in any way decently. I had offered to use my house rules to make guns worthwhile but they said no.

>>44362968

Only ogres have bothered using what amounts to oversized culverins packed with random metal scraps without getting knocked flat on their asses. I guess conceptually if one of the PCs was either large (or bigger) sized or had the Powerful Build racial trait I could have allowed it, but the players didn't ask, they just commented it was a neat fight and moved on.
pic related, the WHFB unit I basd the archetype from.

>> No.44363972

Sort of, but not on purpose.

I started a random session with 4 people, to introduce 2 other players to the group. They had fun, and we decided to continue the campaign. However, for my next campaign, I wanted to play dawn of worlds to generate the world. So on the second session, we did that. They created a ton of cool races, that now they can't play, because in their first session, they all chose standard dnd fantasy races.

I debated letting them redo their characters, but a lot of the races would be problematic to stat. I plan on letting them play the cool races in the second campaign.

>> No.44364066

>>44362919
That is a lovely floppy hat. But what are the round things two of them are wearing from bandoliers?

>> No.44364108

>>44364066
Containers of premeasured amounts of gunpowder

>> No.44364237

>>44354795

>Every goblins update

No? Pretty much nobody cares and it goes for solid months without being posted about.

>> No.44364257

>>44357782
>This is mainly a problem for 3E onwards.

Literally just 3e and it's derivatives.

It's flat-out not a problem in 4e or 5e.

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