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43685195 No.43685195 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Everytime I think about the Horus Heresy I end up wondering how the traitor legions can be seen as anything but crazy retards.

Let me explain: I get Horus was half pissed half brainwashed by the chaos gods to turn himself to the emprah. Thats a initial setting I can deal with.

But what I don´t get its how is killing millions of inocent souls throught the imperium something necesary in a rebelion against the big E.

In the books, we are constantly seeing traitor astartes trying to justify their actions so we don't get the black and white picture but the deep and interesting grays.
For me its just bullshit cause any sane marine, traitor or not, wouldn't be ramping across the galaxy enjoying the assraping of inocent civilians and old comrades.

So sane its the key word. All the traitor legions have lost their minds to chaos and trying to justify otherwise is pure bullshit. Legions like WE or EC don't fuck around with bullshit morals and honor codes. They're just mad people doing mad things.
But all the talky talky about Horus and how he's in charge of a noble rebelion against the bad Emperor is just ridiculous.

I mean, look who's sidding with you Horus:
Angron the Angry.
Fulgrim the sexual molester.
Wierd guy Mortarion.
Perturabo the Autist.
Lorgar the religious fanatic.
Kurze the psychokiller.
Magnus the nerd.
Alpharius the shady dealer.

How can anyone says this isn't just a bunch of crazy motherfuckers acting like baboons?

>> No.43685226

>In the books
the books are shit

Lorgar went traitor because his dad wasn't down with catholicism
Angron went traitor because he's a crazy retard
Perturabo went traitor because he's a bitter asshole
Fulgrim went traitor because Horus date-raped him out of his mind
Magnus went traitor because he couldn't stop with the magic
Curze went traitor because he was also Night Haunter
Alpharius went traitor because no one acknowledged his brilliance

The only one who had SOME reasoning for going traitor was Mortarion, who was convinced that the Emperor was acting like the tyrants of Barbarus. But it's still pretty flimsy.

The traitors fell because they had their characters tested, and failed.

>> No.43685240

>Alpharius went traitor because no one acknowledged his brilliance

>> No.43685287

I just added Alph cause he's officially traitor. I think it's the only one I wouldn't consider plain and stupid. He's easily the most interesting "traitor" primarch.

>> No.43685293

>muh legion
>eye am alpharius ecks dee
>no one knows what's going on with them LOL
Fuck you, classic legion had a fucking character. They had reasons behind their actions (if twisted), mother fucking goals.

Now they're cardboard cutouts with "subterfuge" lazily scrawled on the front.

>> No.43685557

>side with chaos.

now thats EDGY

>> No.43685648

>All the traitor legions have lost their minds to chaos

But that's not what happened

>> No.43685716

Have you considered the possibility that Horus is not a reliable narrator, and that any belief he might hold in making the galaxy a better place is a sham either placed in his mind by the Chaos Gods to make him easier to control, or which he's invented to try and justify his own greed, arrogance, and growing madness?

Keep in mind that Chaos corrupts. Even the best intentions are led astray. Many of the Traitor legions had very good reasons for turning against the Emperor, but their increasingly violent, debauched acts can in part be attributed to Chaos having greater and greater influence over them. Just writing them off as "they're crazy retards lol" is an extreme disservice.

>> No.43685734


Eh, out of all of them I kind of get Perturabo the most. That motherfucker and his men got the hard shaft. Of course he didn't help by being a cold, ruthless motherfucker.

Also, he wasn't really an autist. He understood social tact, at least in the FW books he completely understood Olympia's complex court system, he just chose to ignore it because 'fuck you I'm going to go make a clockwork titan'.

>> No.43685778


>For me its just bullshit cause any sane marine, traitor or not, wouldn't be ramping across the galaxy enjoying the assraping of inocent civilians and old comrades.

Not like they had just been on a massive, centuries long genocide tour of the galaxy or anything. They had never killed civilians or eachother at all in that period. Nope, never.

>> No.43685795


And of course he had his own Legion decimated for no fucking reason.

>> No.43685799

no point in doing that (unless batshit crazy) to the people you were fighting for.

>> No.43685805

that's the only way you can do all the shit they do. That or just being stupid tbqh.

>> No.43685808


Hence the

>cold, ruthless motherfucker


>> No.43685825


That implies that they cared about the people of the imperium at all. From most of the lit, it appears that the marines only really cared for eachother- and the primarchs only really cared for eachother, their soldiers, plus the EMPRAH

The only exceptions would probably be Vulkan, who liked civilians and Russ who liked guardsmen

>> No.43685850

Very few even loyalist chapters give a shit about civilians or humanity. Ultras, salamanders, yiffs, doom eagles, etc

>> No.43685884


Goes a long way to explaining why marines might go traitor

They have to dedicate their entire lives to fighting for people they will never see, in the name of an emperor that will never know of their sacrifice, endlessly watching their brothers die in seemingly pointless wars

Its enough to get modern soldiers to desert, Space Marines too probably if they don't have anyone left in their chapter that they care for.

Might also be pulled into going renegade out of love for their squad, or their chapter if they decide to turn. Then after being renegade, Chaos is a logical step. They reward you in ways that the emperor never could for doing what you were reshaped to do

>> No.43685959

Space marines are mentally hard but brittle. When they snap, they snap hard.

>> No.43686027

Horus knew he had the bad bunch - after a while, when his mind had begun to slip he would talk to the decapitated head of Ferrus and lament that he only had bloody-handed tyrants, mass murderers, and daemons for his generals instead of strategists and men of duty like Ferrus

That said, of the rebelling legions, the Iron Warriors and the Night Lords both joined partly because they would have been censured otherwise (they both blew up their planets, and the Night Lords had been close to punishment for their tactics anyway), along with their primarchs' issues, the TSons joined because they were in the process of being censured and it was their way out (also Magnus being an arrogant fool )

Fulgrim got date raped (and his legion was going obsessive and arrogant anyway), Angron was mad and utterly hated the crusade (on a moral level as well, in his moments of clarity), Lorgar was just full chaos, and Mortarion felt big E was becoming the worst sort of tyrant

Also there was general discontent that the running of the imperium had been turned over to the entirely human council of terra, it left a lot of the specially-built-to-lead posthumans feeling a bit butthurt (including a few loyalists)

>> No.43686072

The way I see it, in a not so grimdark gothic emo universe, Horus would have gone AWOL. Maybe rounding up a couple of systems to start off a new independent realm. Maybe fighting the other legions as a way of keeping his renegade independency but surely not going full retard boiling worlds in the slug result of a viric bombardment.

Like Horus sending a message to the emprah saying something like "hey im tired of this bullshit crusade to increase your glory and helping you bulding a fascist empire blah blah blah" then taking his ships and going away.

That would be something reasonable and ofcourse it could develop into conflict, but not a BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD madness.

What we got is just people brainwashed by chaos who are portrayed like damaged mouthbreather fucks covered in blood and skulls. And that's also okay but dont try to tell me they are right or dindu nuffin wrong please.

>> No.43686082

>Also there was general discontent that the running of the imperium had been turned over to the entirely human council of terra, it left a lot of the specially-built-to-lead posthumans feeling a bit butthurt (including a few loyalists)

Especially when you consider the eventual fate of the Thunder Warriors. The Emperor had the survivors destroyed when he no longer needed them. I'm not sure how widespread that information was amongst the Legions, but if any of them did know, then as the Crusade drew to its end they might have found themselves wondering if they were next up for the chop.

>> No.43686141

There's a couple of problems with that though.

Namely that he and his legion would be hunted down - the Emperor was big on the whole "total obedience" thing, so just going off on his own would end horribly.

As one of the greatest generals ever, Horus knows this, so he tries to make sure he can't be stopped - he gathers a group of like-minded allies and goes about reducing the imperium's ability to come after him in general before trying to take out big E, who he knows will never stop pursuing him for rebelling and is crazy powerful - that's something he has to if he wanted to succeed in rebelling.

Unfortunately there is Chaos in the mix, which makes everyone go nuts, turning "make it so they can't come after us" into bloody slaughter (though just the Legions does that anyway, especially the ones who were willing to rebel )

>> No.43686218

Weren't the most understandable ones:

1) Lorgar, Holy shit did the Emperor screw him over so bad. Lorgar just wanted to worship you, then you rebuke his legion in front of the Ultrasmurfs AND burn down a planet just to drive the point home?

2) Angron. Angron was already insane with the Nails, but the Emperor screwed him screwed his friends over by removing him from the battle which the Emperor himself could have single handedly won. Then the Emperor was a tyrant just like the one Angron rebelled against.

3) Magnus. Magnus fucked up, but oops his whole legion got wiped out by the Wolves. That's gotta piss anyone off.

4) Kurze. Ok Kurze was crazy.

>> No.43686233

>4) Kurze. Ok Kurze was crazy.
No. He was just right.

>> No.43686242

>What we got is just people brainwashed by chaos who are portrayed like damaged mouthbreather fucks covered in blood and skulls
That didn't happen until later, when it was already incredibly too late to turn back.

>> No.43686296

Kurze didn't do nuffin'.

>> No.43686316

>Fuck you, classic legion had a fucking character. They had reasons behind their actions (if twisted), mother fucking goals.
>Now they're cardboard cutouts with "subterfuge" lazily scrawled on the front.

>> No.43686321

Daemon Prince Krieg of the Night Lords says that Konrad has two persons in one body. One was a righteous man and the other was a man who always felt the kiss of Chaos.

Konrad's fault is that he fell (partially) to Chaos. He was the first Chaos primarch.

>> No.43686327

>trusting daemons

>> No.43686383

Add to Lorgar's entry that he didn't even want to fight, he wanted to build utopias. He despised the totalitarian approach to power that Big E took.

>> No.43686387
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>> No.43686410

Oh, yes he did. He started a war on Colchis, and persecuted people who didn't want to worship the Emperor after screaming 'heresy" at them.

>> No.43686445


The emperor didn't want men for the Legions he wanted to tools. Amazing tools but tools nonetheless, I think Emps was perplexed when the legions didn't act the way they where intended to. After all you don't expect your screwdriver to start given pointers on how to build your wardrobe.

The Legions slaughtered everything when they went heresy because they where incapable of doing much else when they rebelled. They where seven ft murder machines, what else would they do. If everything had gone 'just as planned' for the big E the Space marines would have gone the way of the thunder warriors or else be quietly exiled. You can't 'retire' Space Marines, they won't be happy if you gave them a bit of land to call their own and 2 kids + wife. After a century of constant genocidal conflict probably even the most well adjusted Legionaire would be seen as hopelessly insane by modern standards. The only way to retire a Space Marine is at the end of a gun, yours or someone else's.

At peaceful human empire would have had no place for them even the Primarchs would have been next to useless save a few such as Lorgar, Vulkan, Fulgrim and Guilleman (and to a lesser Extent Peturabo and Magnus) as they where actually in the business of building things not just wrecking them.

To all of this you add chaos, which make everyone go increasingly deranged over time and hey-presto you have a heresy.

Even without chaos an SM rebellion would have been inevitable once the crusade was at its end. Can you imagine Angron or Russ or El'Jolsson going gentle into that good night. Fat chance.

Big E felt his sons and the SM where tools of war, they fulfil a purpose and that get left behind. The smarter Primarchs could probably sense their end coming at Ullanor.

>> No.43686509

>If everything had gone 'just as planned' for the big E the Space marines would have gone the way of the thunder warriots

>> No.43686552

I kinda sympathize with Lorgar... I mean he was raised to believe in deities from the very start and then the emperor went mad because of it, punishing Lorgar and his whole legion for building idols and the imperial creed that the imperium follows nowadays.

It was certanily just a matter of time that he, his legion and Erebus would search through the stars for a deity to praise and pull others to the taint of Chaos.

>> No.43686603

It's never outright stated, only insinuated by several characters (including the thunder warriors themselves). Hints include the lack of female space marines or primarch (because he didn't want them to be able to breed) and the fact that the Emperors own notes and plans included post war uses for his 'sons', including sticking Magnus into the Astronomicon

>> No.43686607

Or maybe they would be entertained with orks and necrons and then the nids and then the taus and whatever else they could find.

Its not like the war was going to end soon.

>> No.43686809


True. But given that the 'Nids and Tau And 'Crons didn't show up until almost 10,000 years later ('crons where asleep) that is a a looooong time to have bored Space Marines with not that much to do.

You've got me on Orks though, but I feel that much of what the Emperor would have wanted to achieve would have been able to simply brushed them aside in the end.

Proof >>43686509. None, not really but it would have been a logical thing for the Emperor to do. Would you honestly want your population in thrall to demi god post human lunatics who have forgotten what it's even like to be human. I know I wouldn't. I love Space Marines, I have painted enough of them! But. If I was a ruler I would use them to get rid of whatever space borne nasties there where and then send them very far away preferably so that they slowly die out fighting. Perhaps Big E wouldn't kill them, but he would certainly stop making them.

In the 40k world though. SM are needed constantly, it's their perfect environment an endless war that requires post-humans to designed to fight endlessly.

Against everyone.

>> No.43687767

>female marines
Because he couldn't make them.
That's incest.

>> No.43687782

But Anon, the universe is a cruel and uncaring place. The universe would throw every nasty thing at the Emperor to see how tough he is if he succeeded. He would need the marines.

>> No.43687816

Not just that. The big E didn't tell Lorgar to shut it immediately, thus giving tacit permission for a while.

Lorgar built shrine worlds that were 100% compliant and never rebelled, but the big E just wanted planets as quickly as possible. Then Monarchia happened.

Couldn't the Big E inform Lorgar the damn day they met not to workship him as a god?

>> No.43687818

I think that we can all agree that the big secret of the HH series is that it wasn't very well written.

>> No.43687890

This. This so much. Having multiple authors write it probably didn't help.

>> No.43687935

>expecting 40k lore to be consistent, coherent, or competently written
>expecting 40k characters to be realistic or make sense
Many keks today.

>> No.43688250


They are terrible I agree, I try to blot most of it out whilst rocking back and forth in the dark mumbling 'at least the setting is good'.

>> No.43688403

I am not certain what the emps thoughts on Chaos were, tho. He tried to starve them out of the populace but even he should have figured out that he had to have a constant and eternal force of superhumans around that are harder to corrupt than your run-of-the-mill planetary governor. The sad fact of the matter is that until the whole humanity manages to attain the level of psyker control that the eldar have, the space marines or even their next generations are in constant demand.

Emps was an arrogant bastard, but he would have certainly had a place for supers until every single human was on some level of ligtning-shitting-psyker.

>> No.43688426

The sum is bad but i like the parts of it so much....
Is this what its like to be a believer?

>> No.43688432

A big factor was the the space marines were afraid of becoming obsolete. They knew the Crusade was drawing to an end, and they were all wondering: What now?
They loved war. That was what they were created to do.

Also remember that they had to purge their legions for any loyalists who wouldn't turn.

>> No.43688499

The crusade was nowhere near being completed. The armies were in fact stretched thin in trying to hold the territories they had gained and there were endlessly more human worlds than even the first crusade hadnt even reached. Pre-fall humanity has worlds beyond the astronomican, and nobody has any clue how many of them might be out there still.

Plus, fact of the matter is that extra-galactic threats like the Tyranids arent going to go anywhere

>> No.43688544

>The crusade was nowhere near being completed.
It was drawing to a close. They were starting to have conversations about what'd happen afterwards. Sigismund was convinced that there'd be war, some war, forever. Loken didn't believe him, I think.

There was nowhere near "endlessly more human worlds".

I'm not entirely sure they knew about Tyranids, but regardless, in the books they're wondering what'd happen after the crusade, and having conversations about an imperium largely free of war.

>> No.43688591

>Magnus went traitor because he couldn't stop with the magic
Didn't he go tratior because his, admittedly poorly executed, attempt to warn the Emps of the Tratiors was answered with Emps sending the Wolves to fucking go and kill everyone?

>> No.43688674

-of his legion.

Ended my post three words short

>> No.43688683

More like he was told to cut the bullshit with the warp at the Council of Ikea and he just ignore everyone and went back to his spells and shits.

Also fucking up the emps work at Terra with his excellent execution.

So yeah, he was so useless he and his legion were better dead.

>> No.43688872

Thunder Warrior Retirement Plan.

>> No.43688924

He told the Wolves to go and bring Angron to him, but Russ didn't know Horus was a traitor so Horus was all 'nah bro, kill them all. We got new orders' so Russ did so and thus did Chaos gain another legion in Magnus's desperation to save his people

>> No.43688956

Incest rears its head 3 generations later.

>> No.43688984

>Not expecting the Emperor to say "We must prepare for the Tyranid Invasion."

>> No.43689009

But I'm sure Emps didn't want his grandchildren to be having sex.

>> No.43689066

Why didn't anyone go Xeno? They'd be preferable to Chaos.

>> No.43689092

Because aliens are vipers that can't be trusted.

>> No.43689119

Thing is, females could breed with a human and not have the fetus burst through the womb.

By only having male Space Marines, he ensured they had nothing that could survive their pairing.

40k females are literally -4STR. Not like Fantasy women, who could have sex with a Great Unclean One, birth a half-Daemon viking, and survive.

>> No.43689134

And Russ didn't think to question Horus about the orders?
The Emps didn't punish Russ for being that fucking stupid?

>> No.43689152

It was known some were capable of working with humans, and only Emp's orders prevented it.
As soon as Chaos became known, everyone knew Daemons were lying shits.

So it stands to reason at least SOME would have. They also would have survived, by effectively removing themselves from the conflict.

>> No.43689170

What about Sisters?

>> No.43689177
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I agree, OP. It'd make more sense if chaos was actually subtle and that each of the primarchs fought because they felt it was righteous. Like Lorgar trying to do good by spreading the word of the chaos gods thinking they were true gods who wanted to help mankind. Horus thinking he's stopping the Emperor from betraying his own ideals. Shit like that. Instead in the books we get "lol im traitor *kills u*".

I can see why some would be crazy. Take Curze and Angron, those guys were fucked up from the beginning. But most of the others were normal primarchs who then went on to fuck over everyone and everything with so little to justify it? I can see why they'd get crazy after being forced out into the eye of terror, but to show your full hand of "yeah, this is what chaos is and it's about raping your fucking souls into oblivion" seems dumb. At least let the primarchs be tragic heroes who tried to be noble while led astray. All it takes is Horus going "hey bb join me n kill ur bruthers n everything u used to stand for" and that's it? That's how it's justified that "SEE? CHAOS IS NOBLE! WHO'S RIGHT OR WRONG???" when really it's not deep and with the shitty way it's written chaos is clearly the ones at fault because half of them had no fucking reason to attack their brothers and betray their values aside from needing one half of the legions to go traitor. Fuck me.

>> No.43689220

There is one piece of fluff that said a lot of things Emps did was because Horus encouraged him.

>> No.43689249

But Marines are not altered genetically, the child would be human.
Regardless, there are a large number of ways to surgically remove the ability to have children for both men and women.
If breeding was ever an issue then just nuter the fuckers.

>> No.43689250


>> No.43689251

No, because Horus was the Warmaster and Russ is loyal.

And no because I think by the time Russ made it back to Terra after that the Emperor was on the Golden Throne.

>> No.43689300

He may well have, but they didn't know, so that's probably also a factor in why they rebelled. They simply loved war.

>> No.43689301

Holy shit some of you really don't know what's up. Lorgar and his Word Bearers didn't only turn because he couldn't evangelize the Emperor, but also because of how badly the Emperor and Roboute screwed him over. Emperor orders the Ultramarine to destroy Lorgar and the Word Bearers favorite place Monarchia, then psychically manipulate Lorgar and his entire legion into kneeling before Emps, Roboute, and Malcador. Like shit man that's not cool. Roboute said some shit like "I am doing this for Lorgar's own good even though he'll hate me for this" but that's a pile of bull if him and Emps weren't narrow minded pricks they wouldn't found a better way to help their son/brother cuz that's how family is. Even after they turned to Chaos the Word Bearers did damage to Space Marines only. When it came to normal ppl they only had them join their cause since Word Bearers have always been smart enough to realize that it's better to have these guys on our side than meaninglessly kill them (meanwhile Emps and Roboute thought the opposite way.)

Magnus didn't exactly willing join Chaos either. The dude let his ppl die/lose so Tzeentch's plan wouldn't be fulfilled. He's the opposite of the word "arrogant" that has been used in this topic to describe him. Tzeentch originally had events manipulated so that both Thousand Sons and Space Wolves get wrecked. Magnus, being pretty fucking smart actually, figured this out. In order to not let the Chaos God win, he and his ppl were losing on purpose. Tzeentch was so impressed by how far Magnus was willing to go (Magnus is the second most powerful psyker in the galaxy if he wanted Space Wolves and Leman Russ would've gotten embarrassed), and so was willing to save Magnus, his people, and everything Magnus worked so hard for. Magnus, with his back broken, couldn't find another way to end this conflict Prospero was in, so he accepted Tzeentch's deal. In doing so, he actually beat the ultimate master planner at his own game.

>> No.43689306

Still mortal women. There's no evidence they have the fortitude not to be Kleenex.

>> No.43689319

Just a quick

"U sure 'bout this, dad?"

And there would have been one less legion on the other side.

>> No.43689376


>But Marines are not altered genetically, the child would be human.

They are. Why do you think they require "geneseed" extraction from some other organ? They are very much genetically augmented.

And one of those is sterility. Hence why space marines can't fuck. Primarchs couldn't either. And it's because the Emperor wanted space marines to have to rely on humans in order to reproduce and fill their numbers. He didn't want them breeding on their own and pumping out either space marine hybrids or anything like that. And we know they can't fuck because even chaos can't and they look for any way they can to fill their ranks. Even they had to try to use shit like the daemonculaba in order to try to come close to breeding to replace their numbers.

The Emperor's goal is for baseline humans to basically evolve into an entire species of Emperors. Not to replace them with space marines and altered humans.

>> No.43689397

There is a world of difference between being loyal and happily going along with a plan to genocide an entire world that your brother lives on all because dad seemed a bit upset with him.

Especially when said genocide order didn't even come from dad, but your other brother.

>> No.43689409

Canon has it Tzeentch can't be beaten, since all outcomes were planned so they result in a benefit to himself.
That's why he's such a shit character.

Also, funny how in End Times Fantasy there was more complexity to Chaos than Horus Heresy. Hell, Valten was more sympathetic to Chaos than the Imperium was to those loyal in the golden age.

>> No.43689433

Didn't GW confirm they aren't sterile, just have no interest in sex?

Also, if Emps could produce offspring, Primarchs could too.

>> No.43689446

Yeah, but with Orcs and shit it doesn't seem realistic there would be a war free Imperium like at all.

>> No.43689453
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>> No.43689455

Angron always hated the Emperor and the Imperium, being nerve stapled also explained alot of his actions.

Magnus was some book worm nerd who shouldnt have done what he did but the Emperor could have also fucking told Magnus the only psyker in the galaxy who could have fucked with his plans.

Kurze was fucked up and quite frankly im still wondering why the Big E let him run genocidal for 20 years without censure. TWENTY YEARS. It must have been somewhat accepted right?

Lorgar is a bitch but the Emperor was a complete and utter ass with destroying his entire world view thing.

Alpharius has always been loyal.

>> No.43689485

>Hell, Valten was more sympathetic to Chaos

I dont disbelieve you, but where did you see this written?

>> No.43689506

Which is weird cuz the whole idea of Tzeentch even recruiting the Thousand Sons comes from the fact that Magnus figured out a way to not have it go Tzeentch's way.

>End Times Fantasy Chaos more complex
True. Fantasy is overthetop and grimdark like 40k, too, but is a lot less black n white and has aspects that are grounded.

>this much autism in one post
Enjoy being social trash bbygurl desu senpai

>> No.43689516


Whats worst is that Custodes and Sisters of Silence were sent along for the ride. Two groups intimately close to the Emperor SHOULD HAVE stepped back and thought "maybe we should flag golden boy about this..."

>> No.43689544


>Didn't GW confirm they aren't sterile, just have no interest in sex?

No. Because if that was the case then chaos wins. Since space marines rely on recruits from normal humans and chaos would be able to literally just fuck one of their numerous captive slaves and shit out space marines like no other. They can't and they haven't. Thus the daemonculaba which was an attempt to get around being unable to breed. The only chaos marines who may ever fuck would be Slaaneshi marines, and even then there's far greater sensations to their depraved minds.

Just take a look at the story of how noise marines were made. When the woman played the music, it was so fucking strange for space marines to feel any kind of lust that it is specifically noted.

>Also, if Emps could produce offspring, Primarchs could too.

Primarchs were different. They were specifically created by the Emperor and were basically Imperial daemons who were more warp stuff than physical being. And we don't know if the Emperor had kids. Turns out the sensei stuff was a Tzeentch cult and plan that got culled by the Inquisition. But he probably could have since he was actually physically born, not augmented and created in a tube like the primarchs and infused with all sorts of shit.

>> No.43689657

End Times: Archaon lore. Valten basically says "This should be you with the power of Sigmar. I feel for you man, you really got fucked over. I'm sorry. I'm ready to fight when you are."

Then a Skaven shot Valten, and Archaon was PISSED.

So he had Valten's skull boiled, then when it was polished and clean he crushed it into dust while sitting in a throne in Sigmar's ruined cathedral, listening to the wails of the civilians as they were torture-killed by his men. He hated everyone around him, called Kairos Fateweaver a faggot and a Bloodthirster a bitch nyugga.

Then got ready for the final battle.

In the end, Archaon decided he was fighting for free willed beings, against both god and daemon.

Even in Age of Sigmar he retained the characterization. The Chaos Gods promoted him to HNIC of all Chaos because he hates them all equally so none can tempt him to do anything for them.

>> No.43689826

>a quick
That's not a thing when it comes to cross-galactic communication. It has to be relayed/delivered by ships through the warp, so urgent instructions need to be followed ASAP before they become out of date

And depending on the telling, sometimes its new orders from Horus, sometimes it's the orders getting modified but still appearing to be from the Emperor.
And in one telling Russ convinces Big E to make it kill, not capture, which is a retarded story, but it does emphasise that Russ doesn't give a shit and doesn't like Magnus at all - he's not going to think to hard about saying no to a kill order (or any order, him blindly following is an acknowledged flaw)

>> No.43689916

I think in the end Angron is one of the best portrayed traitor primarchs. He was a hurted beast, with xenomachines inserted into his brains. He was a slave, beaten up and pushed to kill other slaves meanwhile a bunch of rich kids watched.

So he frees his people and fights for them, they become a family of warriors and they try to overtake the rulers of the world.

Finally they meet their last stand, knowing they will die for sure but as free people. And then the Emp says "BEAM ME UP SCOTTY" and takes Angron with him into a fucking starfleet above the planet to tell him to watch while his family is slaughtered.

"Don't worry kid you'll get a free and new legion of killing machines, don't be sad about those hillbillies!"

So Angron is mad as fuck cause all he ever knew and fight for was dead down in the planet and he was whiling to die with them. Then he goes apeshit on all the War Hounds official unitl he meets Khârn, another top tier character of the universe.

Finally he takes his spot as a Primarch and leads the WE but he's still a ticking bomb cause the nails and decides everyone should wear them.

Slowly the legion itself falls the same way Angron did. They become damaged soldiers like their father, turning a once honorable and proud legion into a band of crazy killers.

So in the end you realize Angron should have been given the Lost Legion Ticket. War Hounds become the XLXIVIVIIVI Chapter of the Ultramarines and Khârn rises to be the First Captain of the Legion. He dies later on fighting the remains of the Horus traitors and gets a statue on the Fortress of Hera in Macragge.

>> No.43689966



The nails were archeotech, so human, but the knowledge of how to extract them without killing the person was lost.

>> No.43690048

did he snort Valten?

what a badasss

>> No.43690065

I don't have it, but there's a bit somewhere (possibly on Istvaan, fighting WE Loyalists) about how Angron hated his legion - they fought for the joy of battle, for honour and glory, things he felt were pretty meaningless - he felt the only real reason to fight was against a tyrant and for freedom.

It's also not that surprising that when he first got his legion (and the associated crusade forces, who were also nasty fucks all gathered together to await his command) he killed the legion's highest commander when he entered Angron's chambers. And the next few as well, until Kharn could calm him down

>> No.43690125

So do marines jack off or not?

>> No.43690150

Legion says that the AL ditched the Imperium because xenos showed them a vision of the future, where a successful Horus causes the fall of the Imperium and humanity as a whole, but once all of the humans are dead Chaos becomes a non-entity and a threat to nothing.

Of course it never really addressed what would happen with the Eldar.

And in some short stories, it's shown that Alpharius and Omegon have different opinions on whether to believe the vision and make it happen, so they start infiltrating each others' followings WITHIN THEIR OWN JOINTLY-OWNED LEGION, leading to a clusterfuck of double-crosses and triple-crosses, moles within groups of moles, etc.

With that in mind, knowing that they all look practically identical, and knowing Alpha Legion tactics in general, it's impossible to know who in the Legion (or in any Legion for that matter, since they have a habit of doing that) is doing what, for who, and why. This is generally either the reason you find them fascinating or think they're retarded.

See: that one Oglaf comic with dopplegangers killing dopplegangers.

>> No.43690262

I'm sure the space wolves do

>> No.43690280

I don't get why every Primarch was some loving father to their Space Marines.

I sure as hell wouldn't feel anything for a bunch of random sycophantic lunatics from who the fuck knows where with cloned organs of mine in them.

I'd take the first opportunity I had to dump those fuckers on someone else, then recruit actual humans. Or at least use them as disposable pawns, with a very good distance between me and them.

>> No.43690288

They've got an invuln save. 1/6 chance to survive a powerfist, so surely that makes 1/6 chance to survive a marine dicking?

>> No.43690289

No, he isn't Slaaneshi. Although he seems to hate them the least along with the Nurglites, Khornates and Tzeentchians the most.

>> No.43690333

Ah but will a space marine be satisfied after giving you only one totally hot dicking?

>> No.43690382

Yeah, that happens in most legions - the Primarch recruits from their homeworld (which they almost invariably rule), and fairly often favours their recruits over the terran marines that Emps brings with him.

How much they favour them is really variable, but liking them less was certainly a thing - both for loyalists and traitors.

Being a loving father, or even giving a shit at all, was not universal - Angron, Perty and Curze all didn't like their legions much

Does sound like you're likely to be a traitor though

>> No.43690396

That's from Emperor devotion, after his becoming a skeleton and uplifting chosen women to Daemonhood.

That doesn't mean any nun of Lorgar's could fuck him and successfully provide offspring.

Primarchas on the other hand could have produced living offspring from normal human men.

>> No.43690463

In my personal case I'd have had to be one of the ones forced in at Exterminatuspoint. I'd make it clear I'd only serve as long as I had to, and fucked off back to civilian life first chance I got in the Heresy. Or sooner if I thought I could get away with it.

Then again, I don't think I'd favor Earth Space Marines any more than Omicron Persei 8 ones. Just too unnatural.

>> No.43690737

Books fucked it up some.
Back in the Index Astartes days, they did a good job of 1) keeping it ambiguous as to what was truth and what wasn't and 2) playing up why the different Legions turned.

The Iron Warriors were treated like crap, forced to do the most brutal siege warfare *and* garrison the population afterwards, making them a bunch of PTSD wrecks.

Angron hated the Emperor because he didn't bother to save the other rebel slaves. If you read between the lines, the Emperor spared Angron's homeworld, because by his standards it was functioning perfectly well.

Mortarion switched sides out of desperation to survive.

Magnus did literally nothing wrong. Well, almost nothing wrong.

Alpharius was sick of being shamed for being the youngest/least accomplished.

Lorgar wanted to be a priest more than a warrior. The man he worshiped slapped him in the face, so he turned on him.

Kurze was mentally damaged, and the Emperor saw no reason not to use him as a terror monkey, then hypocritically acted all horrified. Also, his legion was made up of convicts.

Fulgrim was always just Daemon corrupted iirc, but his Legion had a perfection deal going on that got twisted.

As for Horus, he was Caesar: he felt like he had been out fighting the good fight, doing all the hard work, and that he should be the one to rule because of it.

That they start with not entirely unreasonable grievances, then descend into madness is the whole point.

>> No.43692740

Anon you fucking moron, a space marine can't transfer his gene seed to a child. The organs have to be cloned and implanted, they won't grow naturally.

>> No.43693007


It started as a 'justified' rebellion. Through necessary/inevitable events like Istvaan and destroying key forgeworlds/garrison worlds - Chaos was able to gain a larger foothold in the traitor Marines' ranks.

But it isnt even that simple. The World Eaters were already poised to destroy snything placed in front of them.

The Night Lords and Kurze had already gone over the line. Kurze bitchslapped Dorn and killed some IF Marines, then destroyed Nostramo before the heresy invite was even extended. Heresy or not, the Night Lords were already renegade.

Each Legion had its own path, but once the ball started rolling - they were all fucked.

>> No.43693960

1/36 chance to survive 2 of them in a row

It's just probabilities. Eventually you'll find a woman who saved 5 times in a row

>> No.43694157

>Instead of getting sent to the Repentia, Sisters are now sent to the space marine reproduction center
>The area is littered with the corpses of those who fail their saves
>Servitors take the corpses and feed them to babby space marines
>Its literally like that scene from berserk except space marine dicks instead of crocodiles

Thats actually kind of hot

>> No.43694231

>sane is the key word

Stop Liking, the thread.

>> No.43694302

>Because he couldn't make them
nigga this is the emperor we are talking about, he could have made them if he wanted to.

>> No.43694326

None of this matters though, because if Space Marines even had dicks, CSMs would have used them long ago to breed new Space Marines, instead of putting up with Fabio Bill

>> No.43694531
File: 7 KB, 244x250, 1445186597697.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

OP here

I´m so delighted about this nice chat we had I might cry.


>> No.43694543

I always thought that Horus and the traitors should have turned to Chais out of desperation.

I remember, in Horus Rising, that Horus wanted his legion to be more than warriors, so that when the Crusade was done, his Marines would have a place in normal society. I thought that was fantastic, that Lorgar was going to introduce Horus to one of the Thunderwarriors. Then, when Horus saw what his Legion actually were, he would go full traitor.

Then, the others would fall in line. You could have Angron joining because he needed a new enemy, and hated the Emperor. Alpharius could do his subterfuge thing, by joining Horus to take him down later, only to be seduced by the secrets that Tzeentch was revealing to him. The rest could be fleshed out later, only to reveal that Lirgar was pulling the strings, trying to Palpatinr his way to the top, with the Chaos Gods as his protectors.

I dunno, I guess I think the Traitor Primarchs need to have genuine justifications, rather than "daddy issues". The daddy issues could be a part of it, but not as prominent as they seem to be. And for fucks sake, have Chaos, through Lorgar, be the background villain rather than a major player. Removing the human element and replacing it with lolchaos seems so fucking forced.

Or, at the very least, get some fucking competent writers.

Just my 2 cents on what the HH books should have been.

>> No.43695695
File: 748 KB, 1232x1754, 61.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Almost all of that is still more or less true, though, barring stuff that's just a matter of interpretation/perspective (e.g. Curze thinking he'd been 'used' by the Emperor). Really, as far as I can remember, the only traitor whose motivation BL completely changed was Alpharius.

>Alpharius was sick of being shamed for being the youngest/least accomplished.

He wanted to prove the Alpha Legion the equal of their elders, but aside from clashing with Guilliman, IA didn't depict Alpharius as coming under fire until Tesstra Prime - and that was because he'd given the world a week to prepare for his attack just so he could show off.

>Fulgrim was always just Daemon corrupted iirc, but his Legion had a perfection deal going on that got twisted.

In all the earlier versions, including Index Astartes, Fulgrim's betrayal was rooted solely in the moment he went to parley with Horus after the latter had openly rebelled. Depending on source, he was either drugged and "pleasured beyond endurance" during the party Horus threw for him or simply corrupted by Slaanesh directly, but in either case, he went in a completely sound, dedicated servant of the Emperor and came out a slave to pleasure, just like one of my Japanese animes.

The CCG fluff moved his talk with Horus to before the Heresy, then revealed that a daemon had been guiding him all along and had finally taken complete control when he couldn't bring himself to kill Ferrus Manus. The novel just filled in the gaps by revealing when and where this daemon had actually come into the story, tying it in with the existing war for Laeran, and showed how Fulgrim's mind and senses became increasingly warped under its influence even while he was still loyal to the Emperor.

>> No.43696052

Didn't Alpha Legion kind of go xeno?

>> No.43696104

Don't forget the existence of the twin primarchs in the first place.

They're the legion that got fucked with the most by black library. Basically nothing of their original incarnation is present.

>> No.43696422

Well, on the one hand you have the fact that these people are techno-barbarians raised to be better than humanity in almost every way - they're smarter, faster, tougher, and stronger baseline. Then they're given power armor, vehicles and weapons to surpass anything a human could use.

Honestly I think its something that was near inevitable: The Legiones Astartes that didn't come from Terra or some of the other more civilized worlds like the Ultramar systems or Prospero would be people living in a world where might makes right. They fought for everything they had and if you weren't strong enough you weren't worth the effort to keep alive.

So you give these people better bodies, and weapons, and they're suddenly supposed to look at normal humans differently? Nah, they viewed people that couldn't fight as a waste.

Not only that but when Horus would completely destroy worlds he would only do so with worlds that wouldn't contribute to his cause, and weren't essential to his warmachine, and use that as an example to others to capitulate. Basically you nuke one or two worlds that were populated just because they were habitable and in the process scare the shit out of the shipyards and manufactori in nearby systems into rolling over and giving you munitions and ships.

>> No.43697217

Russ is blindly and unflinchingly loyal. That's why the Emperor used Russ and the Space Wolves to kill the two missing Primarchs (as heavily implied in the new Horus Heresy novels).

>> No.43697384

Didn't one of the authors out right say that didn't happen?

>> No.43697732


Source on the picture?

>> No.43697933


since when was Fulgrim a sex offender?

>> No.43698134

You are correct most of them where insane there are only 2 of the top of my head who had a justifiable reason to turn traitor the Alpha Legion basically got given the choice to condemn the galaxy to be destroyed or sacrifice mankind to save it so they tried. The Thousand Sons stayed loyal to the last and the only thanks they received was the burning of their home world and the slaughter of their people at which point they where very unhappy and turned traitor which makes sense to me

>> No.43698272

IKR the Space Wolves are literally the worst Legion they are all retarded and their hate for psykers is retarded oh no our rune priests are totally definitely not psykers

>> No.43698317

You get it well done so many Space Wolf fans cry Wolf hehe whenever someone says something good or even just the truth about the whole Prospero and Magnus situation

>> No.43699733
File: 692 KB, 1237x1720, 55.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

The Epic supplement Renegades. Among other things, it also features a rare sighting of the Lesser Spotted Honourable Khorne.

>> No.43699817

Alpha Legion is literally for mustache twirling fedora wearers going off about Sandy Hook or 911 nonsense.

Worst Legion by far.

>> No.43701576

I thought that the head Custodes Valdor was urging Russ to kill Magnus?

>> No.43701596

>justifiable reason to turn traitor
>Alpha Legion
"aliens said so" is not a justifiable reason

>> No.43701613

One of the authors might have but it's been hinted by several other that the Wolves did eliminate the unknown legions. Also even in the GW codexes it lists two crusade campaigns the the SW were solely involved in with "all data redacted" which fits with the unknown legions being totally erased from Imperial records

>> No.43701959


Got a download anywhere?

>> No.43702669
File: 67 KB, 600x793, Wrong+guy+but+still+get+a+load+of+this+techno+heretic+_b6372845c875289766043d001dd2723d.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


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