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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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[ERROR] No.41120443 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

I've never done any wargaming, but I have to deal with a lot of wargamers. They're getting all autistic about Age Of Sigmar and Games Workshop, and apparently Mantic are taking potshots at GW or something. Is GW dead? I think I have to help organise a society trip to Warhammer World at the beginning of the next uni year, but that seems fucking pointless if everyone has run away from Warhammer. What's going on?

>> No.41120502

>>41120443
I'm glad i saw the proper statue before the end.

Is the miniatures hall reopened yet? It was closed last summer.

>> No.41120619

>>41120443
Gee Dubs has been trying out tons of 'new things' to try and rejuvenate their games for the past few years now. This has come with progressively bigger, more expensive, and flashier pieces as time has gone on. With their work on Fantasy ('The End Times'), they pulled one out of left field by not resetting the clock but actually PROGRESSING something. Lizardmen got nuked, and Fantasy is confirmed KIA. Very shortly after, they've released Age of Sigmar (a game with almost no rules) as their replacement for Fantasy, which is being heralded by overdecorated Not-Spess Muhrines.

tl;dr : GW is getting desperate, axed Fantasy, and is continuing to push more product with little to no concern about the game itself. 40k is their only game left, and I doubt it'll be long.


BRING OUT 'YER DEAD!

>> No.41120684

I asked this once and nobody gave me an answer.
What is their new statue made of? I know it ain't gold, I am not retarded, but is it some other metal painted golden or is it stone/cement painted golden?

>> No.41120704

>>41120684
Plastic painted with citadel paints.

>> No.41120743

>>41120704
Don't joke anon, I am trying to figure out how heavy it is

>> No.41120753

>>41120704
Shit, that'll be even more expensive than a solid gold statue.

>> No.41120755

>>41120684
>What is their new statue made of?

The broken hopes of a million loyal WFB players.

>> No.41120763

>>41120684
It's brand spanking new, so we won't know til someone goes up and hits it. You know GW isn't going to spill the beans themselves.

>> No.41120788

>>41120763
It is possible to tell sometimes, even in photos, but all the photos I've seen it is too far away to get a good look.

>> No.41120827

>>41120619
>Gee Dubs has been trying out tons of 'new things' to try and rejuvenate their games for the past few years now. This has come with progressively bigger, more expensive, and flashier pieces as time has gone on.

And yet at least in 40k they seemd to be listening to the fans a bit with mechanicus releases...they clean up with a new mordheim box set, do a couple of plastic sets and they'd be minted.

>> No.41120856

>>41120755
>million
more like a dozen. There's a reason the game died, anon

>> No.41120876

>>41120443
Basically what also has happend in age of sigmar.

>> No.41120887

>>41120856
>There's a reason the game died, anon

And that reason was GW's shortsighted stupidity. WFB wasn't as popular as 40k, but it was by no means a dying game.

Shill harder, GWIDF.

>> No.41120891

>>41120502
The marine statue represents THE RISE during 2nd ED 40k
The Sigmarit statue represents THE FALL during the EndTimes and death of the original Warhammer.

>Byebye GW ;(
Other companies will take you place when you go bankruppt in 2016 when you kill youre last income by fukcin up 40k next edition.

>> No.41120893

A huge push for a new edition of Fantasy would have been a good idea. Hell, End Times was a good idea and reinvigorated the franchise for a time.

The problem comes from the execution. The COMPLETE destruction of the setting, removing Slaanesh, no points and autistic beard rules, etc..It's especially tragic because for years Fantasy had better rules than 40k.

How would I have done it is include the huge marketing push but change the setting to a post-apocalyptic Old World similar to the Book of Genesis where Sigmar and an army of angels (not sigmarines) battle the forces of evil. Each faction's army book deals with how the scattered survivors of each race are managing in the new situation. The rules would have largely been kept the same save for some tweakings.

>> No.41120916

>>41120753
keked

>> No.41120940

You know what, I wonder since matt ward knew what was happening with age of sigmar that he quit in protest, I mean he probably quit in the middle of the devolpment for it by GW.

>> No.41120947

>>41120619
They also wasted resource to do WarhammerWorld only item and Limited ED Items or 100,- ArmyDeal only items.

I doubt anyone in that companie has a plan or knows what they are doing

>> No.41121001

>>41120827
Seemed? People have been clamoring for Mechanius for over a decade. It's only after Forgeworld started selling Mechanius that GW figured out people want them, not because they're listening. That, and the fact that they're already in a hole and trying to fill it with money.

>> No.41121024

>>41120947
I'm pretty sure anyone that actually cared at GW has been driven off. Anyone left is either corporate or a wage slave.

>> No.41121026

>>41120891
Next ed 40k will be 2017 at the earliest. They still have a fuckton of releases to do first including at least two more chaos books, tau, guard, inquisition, sisters, and FUCKING ORKS!!!!!!! Age of spergmar is going to be the rest of 2015, which means the earliest a new edition of 40k could come out would be fall/winter 2016, which they probably will not do, because there is a good chance each of the remaining Big Four is getting a KD style book.

>> No.41121139

>>41121026
Well remember that is if they even do every army for each edition. They have not given an update to a faction before and probably will do so again.

>> No.41121432

>>41121026
>implying Sisters will ever get rebooted despite my hopes and dreams
>implying Inquisition will ever get another codex after last time
>implying GW cares about the Orks anymore.

So that leaves Chaos (who GW openly hates), Guard, and Tau. Even with somewhat scattered codex releases and monthly supplements, we're right on track for 2016. And who's to say they couldn't fuck even that up.

>> No.41121435

>>41120704
It'd be pretty easy to put together https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jqbsSf9EnY

>> No.41121449

>>41120684
Tey used the new Retributor Armour $48AUD spray so it cost them about $10,000 to paint

>> No.41121487

>>41121449
Probably only cost them like $10 total to paint it if you go by production cost rather than RRP

>> No.41121504

>>41120940
>Matt Ward, our spiritual liege
>Precursor of 7th edition, Lord of the Space Marines.
>quit because of Age of Sigmar

Holy fucking shit. It really says something when Matt Ward of all people says Age of Sigmar was going to be bad. Now I wonder if this is just the tip of the iceberg.

>> No.41121636

>>41121432
>Chaos (who GW openly hates)

Wait, I thought GW had hardons for Chaos.

>> No.41121663

>>41121636
Just Khorne really

>> No.41121705

I won't lie, I really really want to know what's going to happen WRT the Imperium considering the whole thing with the Golden Throne.

>> No.41122476

>>41120684
>I know it ain't gold

Please, anon. They keep introducing cheaper and cheaper materials, jacking prices into the stratosphere all the while.

>Of-fucking-course it's solid gold.

Also, >>41120755

>> No.41122591

>>41121139
Has there ever been an edition change where they *HAD* updated all the armies before the new edition.

>> No.41122752

>>41121705
Sigmar -> Emprah
Stormcast Eternals -> Thunder Warriors

All Space Marines all the time. Elves a shit.

40k remains as-is, WHFB is now 20K (or 0k or -40k whatever the fuck)

>> No.41122815

>>41121504

You labor under the mistaken idea that GW wants anything but the cheapest, most docile, most recent college graduates in its design studio.

It's not an accident that virtually all of the designers with any name recognition have left and that no one gets author credits on releases anymore.

>> No.41123160

>>41121435
yep, this pretty much sums up the AoS haters. all that awkward autistic rage over everything.

You see this guys? This is how us 'shills' see you.

>> No.41123194

>>41120887
Which is why the only thing in years to spur real activity was the End Times.

..wait.

>> No.41123838

Daily reminder.

>> No.41124044

AoS, its a clip-on tie of a game.

>> No.41124378

Honestly the strangest part of this whole thing is how the higher ups at GW can remotely convince themselves they still have the ability to recruit the children AoS is aimed at in any significant number.

They don't advertise, and they already closed their high-visibility, high-traffic multi-man stores, and independents hate them because of all the shit GW puts them through, so how the fuck are they actually supposed to reach the new customers they want to recruit?

And given the obvious issues with the above, why would you so vigorously attempt to fire your existing customer base? The stupidity is truly, actually shocking.

>> No.41124689

I find it insulting that AoS is a 4 page game. But not for why you'd probably expect.

Shortness isn't the problem but rather that even for a really small set of rules it manages to still be a really badly written game, mechanically. Solid gameplay can be had in simple, compressed rules with games like FUBAR, which manages to have a but single page of rules yet still have way more depth and interesting action.

AoS is the kind of game which is very easy to get bored of within fewer than five games, including a learning session because it's simultaneously lacking tactical depth and yet manages to be clunky in doing what it does. Plus offloading what's supposed to give the system it's flavour by having dozens if not hundreds of special rules is a really bad way to do things in a wargame because it just slows things down through increasing the amount of time spent checking up on how the rules work, when they apply and so on.

Masses of special rules also make it very difficult to work out balance, particularly without a well crafted and tested points system, because each one just adds complexity. Certain combinations of special rules have already been shown to be potentially game breaking, especially when combined with the objectives system included in the game, making even attempting to balance by objectives (a method used by many good games) pretty much impossible because of how messy the whole thing is.

>> No.41125201

>>41120940

he was the hero we needed but did not deserve

>> No.41125215

>>41124378
You are right. But you are not thinking like a corporation that is beholden to stock holders. The current model wasn't working so some entertainment business guy sold the execs on this idea. Never mind no one in the room is a gamer. This is about money.

My feeling is that the corporatization of gaming is one of the worst things to happen in the last 20 years. The way Hasbro treats WoTC and GW are two excellent examples. Game companies serve gamers the best when they are smaller private companies.

>> No.41125236

>>41125215
WFB was doing ok. Not great but ok. this was an attempt to raise profits we will see how fast them dump it. I am sure the AoS sale campaign has a budget and targets to reach. Will be interesting to see how fast they shit can it if it isn't a preformer. Remember dread fleet?

>> No.41125260

>>41125215

This is sadly true. Fantasy wasn't axed necause it wasn't profitable (around 30% of their revenue before End Times), it was axed because it wasn't as profitable as 40k

and when the shareholders won't see the growth in 40k anymore, it will get axed too, have no questions about it. it will happen as well for sure, there are many more industries way profitable than wargaming. in fact, probably the vast majority of industries are more profitable

>> No.41125267

>>41123160
I have been playing GW games longer then a lot of folks here. Started in 1989 with rogue trader 40k. I collect all WFB armies. And own just about every game GW has made in the last 26 years.

Imagine being a fan of something for half your life and then watching it get tossed aside for GW to increase their quarterly profits.

>> No.41125438

>>41125260

Just because it was 30% of revenues before the End Times series (assuming that figure is even true) does not mean it was profitable.

You have to consider the fixed production/distribution/inventory carrying costs associated with WHFB's continued existence relative to WHFB sales to determine how profitable the line was (Pro-tip: It wasn't).

>> No.41125521

>>41120856
there's that many in my WFB group alone.

>> No.41125536

>>41125438
The problem with fantasy is you would need like 40 guys in a core unit for them to be effective. For instance high elves really needed the horde of spearelves to have a good core unit to act as an anvil.

So with GWs model prices that is what really hurt, it was honestly the reason their sales were so bad, s because of the model price and the amount of models you needed. What was it for a box of spearelves for high elves? Like $35 for a box of 10? Well you are spending over a hundred dollars for that unit of 40.
That is why you could not get more people into the game, and that is why fantasy sales sucked.

>> No.41125620

>>41125536

this just shows you have no idea how fantasy was priced. a 2400 points fantasy army was cheaper than an 1850 points warhammer army while containing twice as many models. whfb infantry boxes regularly go 20 pounds for 16-20 models while it's 20 for 5 models or 25 for 10 models in 40k

the issue was the time cost, not the money cost. assembling and painting that many models takes a shitload of time

>> No.41125665

>>41125620
*1850 points 40k army

>> No.41125697

>>41125620

yeah, you could buy 200 clanrats on ebay for £100, but then, who the fuck have the time to paint those 200 clanrats???

>> No.41125908

>>41125620
His point does still stand. Using those same High Elf Spearmen (box of 16 for $35), you'd need to buy 3 boxes to create a unit of 40, which is $105 before taxes.

And THEN you have to paint all of those fuckers. And my sympathies if you wanted to play Orks or Skaven, you're signing yourself up for days of painting very similar pieces.

>> No.41126043

>>41125908

except you did not need 40. I don't think I ever saw a unit of 40 spearelves, the most was 35 which is just 2 boxes + a small unit filler, that's $52 after the 25% discount which you can easily get (actually there is a guy in US who did even more discounts). So half as much, doesn't sound that bad right? That's also 345 points, 1/6 of your army at 2000 points. Does 50 bucks buy you 1/6 of your standard 40k army?

Fantasy wasn't expensive at all, it was just time consuming as fuck

>> No.41126551

>>41125438
21% actually, space marines alone almost outsold them.

>> No.41126616

>>41126551

source? because the 30% is the only number I saw a source of, in the chapterhouse GW hearings published on BoLS

keep in mind that 'xy asked retailers' does not interest me, only numbers from GW

>> No.41126655

>>41121026
Orks already got a 7th ed codex ;_;

>> No.41126690

>>41123838
What pisses me off is this attitude that GW has taken

>Lol get over it nerd just play it, the fluff and rules you liked dont matter. you werent spending money anyway

>> No.41126718

>>41121435
That was painfully unfunny. Also, who the fuck is retarded enough to buy GW cutters and glue?

>> No.41126741

>>41126043
Not sure where you got those numbers, but its 64 per box in the states, so with 25% off its $48, needing 2 its $96. For $95.25 I can buy two 5 boxes of scouts and sergent tellion, a complete force.
>>41126616
The gw staffer at my store. AoS was done to try and reboot fantasy because fantasy, even with end times, wasn't bringing in enough new people, and most people who had been playing did not buy the new massive kits, or bought 1-2.

>> No.41126763

>>41126741

pretty fucking sure you were on the AU site bro:

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/High-Elf-Spearmen

>> No.41126779

>>41126741
>The gw staffer at my store. AoS was done to try and reboot fantasy because fantasy, even with end times, wasn't bringing in enough new people, and most people who had been playing did not buy the new massive kits, or bought 1-2.

oh, so you can show me now source. ty

>> No.41126842

>>41126741

I love when people who does not have a fucking clue about fantasy are arguing. 64 bucks for a spearmen box, suuuure rofl

>>41126763

it's actually only $55 even in australia, and that's in AUD, no fucking idea where this guy came up with the $64, probably the same source he got that 21% from

>> No.41126929

>>41126763
The sad part is I couldn't tell the fucking difference.
>>41126779
Hey, word through the grapevine, they killed your game though, not mine.
>>41126842
It's New Zealand bucks.

>> No.41126994

>>41126929

they will kill WH40k as well in 5-10 years, then die. investors will just go to videogames/esports, a much better growing market with the same audience

that will be the best thing for wargaming tho. back to independent companies

>> No.41127035

>>41120502
are you talking about the trees?
cause thats the only thing in focus.

>> No.41127051

>>41122752
It looks like most of the models for AoS were made with converting in-mind. Even the Khornates look like Berzerkers without guns and back-packs.

Peronally, I feel the sigmarines would have looked better with more-human proportions.

>> No.41127103

I just don't see how making fantasy more expensive will help it. most expensive starter Gw ever produced? $55 for 5 MPPK models? $6 paint pot, $28 primer? they have lost their mind

>> No.41127106

guys, anyone has the actual info of Chinaman?

want to buy some oop dwarves

>> No.41127154

>>41127106
/r/yoyhammer

>> No.41127181

>>41125215
>The current model wasn't working.
I'm actually glad they chose to do something about it rather than stagnating. Stagnation is death and doing something new is almost always the better option in business. if this model doesn't work, they will do something else. I feel that GW's willingness to change and piss off its marginal, low sales autist nerds is a contributor to their longevity (40 years) as a company.

>Never mind no one in the room is a gamer.
I don't think this is entirely true. At least not in the sense of a Scrooge McDuck caricature. However, you are right that corporations can and do hire executives and VPs from completely unrelated industries.

>Game companies serve gamers the best when they are smaller private companies.
Depends on the gamer. For every one person mourning over Morrowind or S.T.A.L.K.E.R., there are 10 other people 100% happy with Skyrim and CoD.

>> No.41127193

>>41127051
What am I looking at here? What's that on the right?

>> No.41127519

>>41120443
Honestly, if they had just included a tournament-friendly procedural army generation list, even as a secondary option that they badmouth as "against the spirit of the game but here it is anyway" in the introduction, I wouldn't disagree with any of the moves they made with fantasy.

40k is a self-perpetuating beast with more social capital than all of their competitors put together, and as unbound-edition proved, no matter how much they fuck up the rules, it will still be the #1 selling tabletop wargame. It is the WoW of tabletop: they couldn't fuck it up if they tried, and boy have they tried.

The statue was not a mistake. The Spees Muhreen statue wasn't selling any extra models, or making any extra video-game deals for the 40k IP, so that's a sunk opportunity. On the other hand, Fantasy itself is a MASSIVE sunk opportunity cost that's not even making a FRACTION of what 40k is. IF they were privately owned, they would have just axed Fantasy altogether, but that would hurt stock-prices from perceived lack of confidence. As such, in order to stop losing revenue from resources they could be spending on 40k, they needed to shake it up in a big way, and they ARE in-fact making a lot of buzz for AoS. Furthermore, the Sigmarine models are actually sort of cool: Spees Muhreens but noblebright fantasy instead of grimdark sci-fi. That old statue was sitting out there generating no revenue or marketing buzz. Now every related blog, forum, and this board, has a picture of the new statue on their front page. Mission accomplished.

Toning down the tournament play culture was a good idea, though they went way too far. The only people who still played fantasy were people who already had armies, or the few flavor-of-the-month tournament players. They needed to make the game more casual and accesible. Axing the army construction ENTIRELY was a mistake, but making it a secondary "against the spirit of the game" option would have been idea.

>> No.41127692

>>41127193

photoshop

>> No.41127982

>>41120940
Unlikely he wrote 2 of the end times books and blog makes he clear hes proud of them

>> No.41128006

>>41122752
After reading his book yes Sigmar is bro tier

>> No.41128188

>tried a game of age of Nigmar
>played a game of fantasy battle
I can say without a doubt that I enjoyed AoS much more, all the rules are free, its easier to get into, and I didn't have to have a veteran of the game spend 10-15 minutes trying to explain each phase and the important special rules of each. Also I found it much faster to switch between high and low point/army size games, instead of picking through units and what you want to bring and factoring upgrades, I was able to just pick a unit, pick an upgrade, there, 1 warscroll used. But thats just my opinion, you can like whichever you want, I'm just sayin' it was easier to play AoS, but I'm coming from 40k so take that as you will.

>> No.41128230

>>41127519

Well here is the deal... If one likes Space Marines, one has already bought into WH40K universe and whatnot.

However, if they create a similar product for what is technically a competing product, then what sense is that.

No one is going to buy both Space Marines and Ground Marines. Its just too damn time consuming and expensive.

Fantasy has to be different to be bought because it is a substitute product for WH40K, not a compliment.

New people to the genre that want to get into fantasy battle will look at both the Space Marines and Ground Marines and just buy the damn space marines (they have cooler accessories).

They are not going to buy the ground marines.

Its as simple as that.

>> No.41128422

>>41128188

Also another problem is GW is failing to see how to market their products. A great deal of people want to play WFB video games. I have two full playable mods on my computer. Warsong for Mount & Blade: Warband and a great mod called Geheimnisnacht for Crusader Kings 2. If they had professional versions of these games I would pay for them. I paid for Warhammer Online (which failed because of EA:Mythic's failure to switch to a F2P model rather than a failure of the IP).

Personally I am looking forward to Totalwar: Warhammer which will still be 8th edition content.

See. Most people aren't going to be playing models. I won't unless I gets lots of money to throw away buying pre-painted armies on ebay. Then there is the problem of finding people to play them with.

But the WHFB was great IP for books and video games.

They should focus more on that than their models.

There was not reason to scrap the WHFB universe. They only needed to change their business model.

Not the content.

>> No.41128704

>>41128188

obviously it is easier to play, but it comes at the cost of the depth. it gets boring really fast, the three guys of my group who tried to be enthusiastic about it and played through the week are already switching back, and trying to convert the sigmarine rules to WHFB

>> No.41128862

I'm not sure what is worse

AoS being a success and its shitty rules spread to 40k

AoS fails, accelerating GW's death and then depressing growth in the entire wargaming community

>> No.41128936

>>41128230
>If one likes Space Marines, one has already bought into WH40K universe and whatnot.
>if they create a similar product for what is technically a competing product, then what sense is that.
>No one is going to buy both Space Marines and Ground Marines. Its just too damn time consuming and expensive.
Exaggerated Male Form Power Fantasy, and Featureless Humanoid Armor Self Insertion, are the primary similarities between the Empmarines and Sigmarines. Also, they aren't trying to get the kids who already have space marines. They are trying to get the new crop of daddies money kids that they lost to Warmhordes the last generation. Every 14 year old boy loves male power fantasy self insertion, but not every 14 year old boy loves hyper-grimdark science-fiction.... some need something a little more hopeful and bright, and some just like fantasy more. They don't want people to buy both, they want the newest generation of fantasynerds to buy Sigmarines power-fantasies INSTEAD of Kahdor or Menoth power-fantasies

>Fantasy has to be different to be bought because it is a substitute product for WH40K, not a compliment.

>New people to the genre that want to get into fantasy battle will look at both the Space Marines and Ground Marines and just buy the damn space marines (they have cooler accessories).
Why would someone who wants to get into fantasy buy sci-fi models. I don't want my knights in shining armor to have guns and be Nazis... that's why I played Brets. Just because Comicon2.0 culture lumps all fandoms together doesn't make it true. Many preferred WHFB BEFORE it became a grimdark clone of its sci-fi clone. Other than GW employees and trust-fund babies, almost nobody can afford to play both hobbies. They already OWN the market that plays and is likely to get into 40k. Power-Fantasy and Self-Insertion don't mean that they are marketing to literally the same people, because those are pretty fucking universal among the new players of BOTH games.

>> No.41128999

>>41128862
>AoS being a success and its shitty rules spread to 40k
This will not happen, because they aren't going to change SHIT about a powerhouse bluechip IP like 40k. Hell, even if they DID, they would include points, and if you added points and an army construction structure to AoS, it would be 40k 3rd ed, but without tanks. WORST CASE SCENARIO if these rules "spread to 40k" (which they won't, because publicly traded companies don't make major changes to bluechip products, only to failing segments that are too public to drop altogether,) it becomes essentially 3rd edition again.... which when compared to its current form, I would chalk up as a win.

>> No.41129158

>>41128936

So you are saying people won't buy Fantasy because of the Sigmar units, because it has fantasy elements from other things?

No seriously.

Left to its own what difference does the Warhammer Fantasy universe have different now than WH40K if this whole thing about the Sons of Sigmar.

You can say the difference is that you get to play against Skaven, but most of the other factions are the same.

I mean the WH40K is covered with fantasy elements.

By making the games even more similar by changing one of the faction to look like another competing product what have they achieved?

They are not going to get new customers because they have already went with WH40K if they like that kind of thing.

>> No.41129177

>>41128999

they will have to, as 40k isn't growing. investors just won't keep their money in a business that's not growing

>> No.41129220

>>41120443

And another thing. People liked the non-superhumaness of the empire. Sure there were Orgre mercenaries helping on occasion, but much like the Imperial Guard, many people relate to the average joe facing down demons.

Once you make them into super humans how can you lose fluff wise. People like their characters to have flaws.

>> No.41129280

As a 40kfag I have so much sympathy for WHFfags. Imagine taking a setting you've passionately accumulated an encyclopedic knowledge of and spent hundreds of dollars on only for the company to nuke it in the most bullshit way possible. They couldn't even give WHF fans the dignity of saying "We're discontinuing WHFB, but the adventures will continue in black library releases and your own roleplay experiences in WHFRP!" I can't even imagine how devastating that is.
Even if they do continue releasing WHF books and updating WHFRP, it probably suckings knowing that no matter what happens, the characters you read about or RP will ultimately get fucked by chaos. Not even 40k is that nihilistic yet.
Fuck. I'm so sorry, you guys.

>> No.41129314

>>41129158
>So you are saying people won't buy Fantasy because of the Sigmar units, because it has fantasy elements from other things?
No I'm saying that many self-described gamers prefer fantasy to science-fiction, and many self-described gamers don't like everything covered in a thick layer of Grimdark. GW lost those customers to competitors, and wants them back really bad.


>Left to its own what difference does the Warhammer Fantasy universe have different now than WH40K if this whole thing about the Sons of Sigmar.
>Noblebright Fantasy=Grimdark Sci-Fi
No, that is not accurate. If anything, what WHFB had become right before End Times were released was closer to 40k than the new fluff. TBH, the movement towards "let's copy 40k, make everything super grimdark, and remove all fun, silliness, and hope" was what made me stop giving a fuck about the WHFB fluff. It was too much Gotrek and not enough Felix.

The new fluff looks very much to be Noblebright Fantasy, while 40k is Grimdark Sci-Fi. The two worlds, and fluffs have VERY different feels, even if they both abuse the FUCK out of 14 year old male power fantasies in their model design.

>I mean the WH40K is covered with fantasy elements.
Sort of, it has residual elements of fantasy from when it was a clone of WHFB, but most of them have been folded into the mutant-psyker cthullan-warp tropes, which have largely become heavilly Sci-Fi. The new Imperial Knights fluff calls a bit to fantasy, but that's intentionally ironic and dissonant.


Also, is English your first language? Sorry if it's not, but I'm having trouble deciphering what you're saying, so I hope I'm responding to what you meant.

>>41129177
>They will have to, as 40k isn't growing. investors just won't keep their money in a business that's not growing
No, it's growing slowly, like an industry leading bluechip investment does. 40k fans have nothing to worry about. There will never be any change or plot advancement to their setting.

>> No.41129326

>>41129280
Speaking for myself, I am on the opposite side.

I live for the day when 40K gets its own End Times. It's my wish to see 40K's ultimate ending in my lifetime.

This makes me jealous of WHFB. To me they are lucky bastards.

>> No.41129329

>>41129280
>Not even 40k is that nihilistic yet.
Yes it is. It was the very SOURCE of the nihilism that GW felt the need to copy-paste onto WHFB.

>> No.41129330

>>41120443
So are we stealing the new statue yet or what?

>> No.41129375

>>41129329
Before End Times, 40k was definitely the most nihilistic of the two, but one is still ongoing with the ultimate fate of the factions involved open to speculation and the other has a set ending where the world you and factions you know and love are destroyed.

>> No.41129382

>>41129314
>No, it's growing slowly, like an industry leading bluechip investment does. 40k fans have nothing to worry about. There will never be any change or plot advancement to their setting.

you either have to admit that fantasy was really significant in GW's revenue (no more less than glues bullshit, talking about aroun 35-40%), or that 40k is stagnating decreasinng, given that GW as a whole is stagnating despite cutting cost at every occasion they can

this is not 'growing': http://markets.ft.com/research/Markets/Tearsheets/Financials?s=GAW:LSE

their revenue is lower than in 2010, and their net income halved

>> No.41129405

It's totally a hell mary on their part, just not a creative one . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-MzNpMD1K8&list=FLEYJiJjQQmAOCSNOOZEOaSg&index=1

WHFB players weren't asking for this, but when do they research their market, or show any care at all for their current customers??? I could use some decent covering metallic gold paint (Empire: Nordland provice RIP), but they get fucked for that price increase.

>> No.41129411

>Been collecting Empire for most of your life?
Umm... Yeah.... why?
>Do you like Space Marines?
Welll yeah... but... not with my Empire, that's a different universe, I don't like my Chocolate on my Hamburger.
>How about... wait for it.... SPACE MARINES FOR YOUR EMPIRE ARMY
But wheres my only a few degrees from realistic late middle ages humans battling Orcs and Undead and stuff?
>I heard you like free stuff, here's the new rules.
But these rules are nothing like anything I would call WHF, why don't I just play with my old ones I spent hundreds of dollars reacquiring?
>But that warmachine skirmish game is all the rage
If I wanted to play warmahordes with my WHF minis I would just collect warmahordes.

>> No.41129436

>>41128862
>AoS fails, accelerating GW's death and then depressing growth in the entire wargaming community
1)AoS fail will not likk GW, they just refocused only on 40k (which is good for 40k).
2) GW death will not kill entire wargaming.

>> No.41129458

>>41129436
>kill

>> No.41129461

>>41129329
>>41129375
Actually, from the first editions until the End Times the victory of Chaos was stated to be a matter of time. Fantasy's fate was always sealed and End Times had lines that went "We told you so". It's just GW delivering on an old promise.

As for 40K? Every rulebook presented the fact that there is yet hope even in this darkest hour. The Eldar recent materials are very hopeful.

So If anyone says that 40K is more nihilistic than WHFB, he is just being a historical revisionist.

>> No.41129481

>>41129436
>2) GW death will not kill entire wargaming.

What company can fill GW's big shoes?

>> No.41129514

>>41129481
In the age of kickstarter it can be dozens in a very short time.

>> No.41129516

>>41129461
>mfw Bloodkill McGrimdark: The Setting gets a noblebright ending while WHF got End of Evangelion.

>> No.41129524

>>41129314
>The new fluff looks very much to be Noblebright Fantasy, while 40k is Grimdark Sci-Fi. The two worlds, and fluffs have VERY different feels, even if they both abuse the FUCK out of 14 year old male power fantasies in their model design.

Personally, I disagree. I think we've just seen a very small section of it.

I fully expect all of the factions except for a few to be backstabbing dicks. The inclusion of elves and lizardmen in 'order' reads to me that they're probably not working with the Sigmarines directly, just like how the Imperium only sort of works together.

Chaos seems to almost always win. In fact, there's already been a second apocalypse according to the book, the Mortal Realms that Sigmar was trying to put some order in got wrecked by chaos and now all the good guys are trying to do is get the smallest foothold in that world now taken by chaos.

Chaos Warriors are also a lot less interesting. They're all doomed puppets from the start, unredeemable villains instead of Fantasy's story which always had the idea that they're just different rather than completely evil like in 40k. Now they're explicitly Puppets of the Dark Lords instead of a warrior culture.

Everything is black and white rather than shades of grey, and so far 3/4 of the major factions are all about rampant destruction and evil with no holds barred. Even the new Orks seem to be losing their shenanigans for more brutality.

>> No.41129538

>>41129481
None, if we talking about one single company, but watgaming doesn't need jewish corporaion, who prefer listen shareholders, not playerbase and dreaming to ruin wargaming under the hordes of SMchildrens.

>> No.41129547

>>41129538
But wouldn't divide the gaming community even more?

>> No.41129548

>>41120502
Why were you hiding in the bushes to take that photo?

Were you afraid the space marine would shoot you?

>> No.41129550

>>41129524
>Everything is black and white
Which means it's noblebright fantasy with space marines, aspect warriors in shiny armor.

>> No.41129644

>>41129538

that was almost a haiku

>> No.41129776

>>41129524
>Chaos Warriors are also a lot less interesting. They're all doomed puppets from the start, unredeemable villains
>Everything is black and white rather than shades of grey

sounds pretty noblebright

>> No.41129805

>>41129776
>Gray Knights are also a lot less interesting, They're all implacable puppets from the start, unfallable paladins.

>> No.41129946

http://captiongenerator.com/48861/Age-of-Sigmar-interview

>> No.41130038

>>41129436
1) GW is leaking customers.They've cut costs as far as they can and jacked prices as far as the market can bear and revenues are still dropping. The failure of their 2nd largest product line would be huge

2) GW is like 1/3 to a half of the entire wargaming hobby. Losing them and all the people they pull in would definitely put a damper on the others.
I didn't say kill, dipshit

>> No.41130052

>>41120619
Have they tried lowering the price? That would work. 60 bucks for terminators, 40 bucks for rhinos, 80 bucks for land raiders, then they have the audacity to wonder why people aren't guzzling their plastic crap anymore?

>> No.41130056

>>41120502
>WIP takes a photo

>> No.41130067

>>41120443
What society? Which uni?

>> No.41130077

>>41130052
coincidentally, the only place they've shown growth is online sales. i.e all the special editions and full prices bundles with exclusive rules

>> No.41130086

>>41130038
>The failure of their 2nd largest product line would be huge
Yes, huge, but not deadly, in fact it can motivate them to pay more attention to 40k, may be new addons and rulesets.

>> No.41130087

>>41130056
not enough flash
also needs to be like 90% hand

>> No.41130090

>>41120443
Mantic's been taking potshots a GW for as long as there's been Mantic. Some of them used to be GW

>> No.41130111

>>41130086
and why would that help? 40k isn't doing that great itself, and since GW isn't going to suddenly start making good decisions, nothing they do will help

>> No.41130130

>Speaking from a market stand point.

WHY DA FUG didn't they wait til AFTER Total War: Warhammer had come out and get the biggest load of press they could dream of?
I have three friends that started play WHFB post the trailer well knowing that the future was unclear, but we were dumb enough to hope it would remain somewhat the same.

I got into 40k via DoW, surely they can see a connection?

What's going to happen when all the new blood that comes from TW wanna see what the game is about and firstly the game they are playing ain't there anymore, the units aren't there, and if they ask aaaaaany veteran of the game, they will tell them to not bother.


It seems like a massive turn off for the very blood that GW so crave.

>> No.41130196

>>41130130
this the same company that thought it a good idea to cancel their introductory games (mordheim and necromunda) and cut store personnel so there's no one left to teach or play with the gamers

They probably haven't thought of W:TW since they got paid for the rights to it

>> No.41130200

>>41129524
>Everything is black and white rather than shades of grey, and so far 3/4 of the major factions are all about rampant destruction and evil with no holds barred. Even the new Orks seem to be losing their shenanigans for more brutality.
So outnumbered clearly-the-good-guys Heroes nobly standing vigil against the vastly-numerically-superior hordes of clearly-the-bad-guys? Why would GW ever think that might appeal to Fantasy Nerds? (Pic Related)

In what way is that ANY different from the "shades of grey" "there are no heroes, only necessary villains" atmosphere of 40k?

Noblebright Fantasy.

>> No.41130257

>>41130200
> in what way is good v.s evil any different from "shades of grey"

>> No.41130271

>>41126690
Well were you spending money?

>> No.41130290

>>41120619
Idk this seems like more a move from adnd to d20 then killing fantasy

>> No.41130298

>>41120940
Matt Ward was the pioneer of the kind of rules changes we've seen reach their apex in AoS. He got out before the flak came down.

>> No.41130332

>>41130090
Yeah and the other ex-Gwers have all gone to Bolt action which is slowly but surely eating up the 40k player base, honestly both deserve it although I don't play mantic, they seem to be at least giving the customers what they want.

>> No.41130354

>>41130130

Because there is absolutely no guarantee that TW will bring in loads of players.

The End Times and AoS were also likely in the works long before the TW deal.

>> No.41130406

>>41130354

Dawn of War series are the reason GW still exists, so they are stupid if thinking that

>> No.41130430

>>41120443

You guys are looking at it wrong.

They aren't killing Fantasy, they're consolidating it into 40k like Warmahordes.

There's no reason to have two entirely separate games with different rules, scales, and bases.

Now, Sigmarines can be swapped out with Space Marines, same with the new Chaos for Fantasy. They even changed the fluff, so instead of a fantasy world, each race occupies a dimension or whatever.

40k is going to become scrolls. Just wait for it. Then we'll have one mega game, where your Tech Priests will pull skeletons out of a portal or some shit.

>> No.41130448

>>41130130
Because Dawn of War was good and Total War is niche as fuck. It's also boring as fuck but that's my opinion as someone not in that niche. Assuming Creative Assembly don't cock it up like they've done for their past couple of TW games at best it was going to bring in some people who probably already play tabletop or chose vidya as a better alternative.

If vidya is going to bring it new players it'll be thanks to Mordheim or Vermintide and funnily enough they might find a skirmishy game that will apparently have scenarios and campaigns galore exactly to their liking.

>> No.41130453

>>41130290
you're thinking d20 to 4th
3rd edition may have put many adnd settings to the side, but it didn't nuke them

>> No.41130462

>>41130448
>niche as fuck
>not dawn of war
wtf you smokin', man?

>> No.41130525

>>41127051
Turns out they would look much better if they weren't fat and had an actual helm instead of retarded robot face.

>> No.41131195

>>41129314
>The new fluff looks very much to be Noblebright Fantasy, while 40k is Grimdark Sci-Fi
It's more Grimbright, really. Most of the realms got fucked over by Chaos and majority of their inhabitants killed and lands despoiled, but Sigmar is launching a crusade to reclaim them from the grip of the Dark Gods.

>> No.41131215

>>41131195
>but Sigmar is launching a crusade to reclaim them from the grip of the Dark Gods.
Just like Great Crusade for kids.

>> No.41131250

>>41125267
You're just a h8ter jealous of the new Age of Sigmar stuff, because you don't have swag and you're autistic.

Kidding, GW are reprehensible frankly, and AoS is terrible.

>> No.41131266

>>41127051
That actually looks decent, and far more badass on accounts of looking a whole lot less retarded.

>> No.41131303

>>41121432
Some how I managed to play orks, sisters, and inquisition. I haven't won a game since 7th came out

>> No.41131309

It's cool that they managed to make an even more boring version of space marines by taking away the small human aspect that marines still had.

>> No.41131338

>>41131309
I was impressed as well. It's also amazing how they've managed to make the faction feel incredibly overexposed and samey despite the fact that the models haven't even been released yet.

>> No.41131360

>>41129436
>2) GW death will not kill entire wargaming.

But it will kill a lot of gaming stores and clubs that depend on profits from selling GW stuff

>> No.41131365

>>41131215
>Just like Great Crusade for kids.
So, we can expect Sigmar to be betrayed by his second in command (Shorus?), who turns to Chaos along with half of the Stormhosts and mortally wounds Sigmar, forcing him to be interned on the Sigmarite Throne in Holy Sigmarion to power the Sigmarnomicon? Chaos Stormforged (same as loyalist, but with more spikes and worse rules!) when?

>> No.41131366

>>41125267
yeah man, thats what corporations do. how in the hell do you start gaming in 1989 and not know that. do you get heartbroken the sun goes down or that it starts raining?

>> No.41131399

>>41130298
Ward loved Fantasy though. I bet he got the order to kill it, wept manly tears, wrote it the best ending he could that doesn't mean it was good, mind and then moonwalked off into the sunset.

>> No.41131425

>>41131365
Next edition (if AoS will have 2th ed.), or Chaos release.

>> No.41131527

>>41130298
Doesn't flak go up?

>> No.41131881

>>41131338
>despite the fact that the models haven't even been released yet.
Hey!
Every issue of last week's WD came with a dude. And it's been the greatest week in the history of mankind.

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