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[ERROR] No.38930602 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Chaos Space Marines
>Mark of Khorne gives +1Str and Rage
>Mark of Tzeentch does something fucking good (+1 BS maybe?)
>Icon of Flame does something fucking good (Invurn or Ranged Boost that's not Soul Blaze)
>Icon of Despair gives Poisoned +4 (which stacks with Poisoned +4 from Plague Knives to make Poisoned +2)
>Mark of Slaanesh gives +1 I and Counter Attack (or something else, just couldn't think of anything but Counter Attack that fits) or +1 WS
>Khorne Berserkers automatically come with Chainaxes and cost 21 base
>Make Thousand Sons into Rubric Marines, keep the Aspiring Sorceror
>Noise Marines automatically come with Sonic Blaster and cost 22 base
>Add Traitor Guardsmen as a troop choice (TG as ranged, CC as melee)
>Fix Mutilators (S&P and Weapon swapping are bad) and make them Heavy Support
>Get rid of Aura of Dark Glory since nobody uses it or allow squad leaders to select it as an option like GoM
>Lower Warp Talons cost
>Make Cultist Champion and Aspiring Champion worth the 16 and 23 points they both cost
>Fix Tzeenchs spells
>Add in an Alpha Legion unit since they're the only traitor legion without a special unit. Maybe something with Infiltrate or Stealth, like Kommandos for CSM
I'd also appreciate it if they made Raptors a standard CSM unit while Warp Talons are a specialist unit from Night Lords ala Noise Marines and Emperors Children

>> No.38930639

>>38930602
>Mark of Tzeentch does something fucking good (+1 BS maybe?)
bs5 chaos space marines? why is it that when people think 'making a codex competitive' is 'making a codex rediculous'

>> No.38930657

>>38930602
>Add Traitor Guardsmen as a troop choice (TG as ranged, CC as melee)
cultists are the traitor guardsmen

>> No.38930682

>>38930602
>>Mark of Tzeentch does something fucking good (+1 BS maybe?)
+ 1 to invulnerable saves is good, it would be a lot better if CSM could take storm shields

>> No.38930688

>>38930602
Thinking on it, making MoS +1WS, MoK +1S, MoT +1BS, and MoN +1T would be a pretty good way of balancing out the 4 factions.
IoW is also meh in my opinion, IoF just outright sucks, and IoD is borderline useless. IoE is the tits though. I can't think of anything that could boost IoW and IoF properly but I'm thinking my idea for IoD is solid crunch and fluffwise.

>> No.38930716

>>38930602
>add in decent transport options and some varient of drop pods

you forgot the most important one

also,
>Balance Baleflamer, making it str 5 ap 4

>> No.38930726

>>38930682
It would be better if it gave a 5++ like in 4th ed instead of a 6++ if the wielder has no native invulnerable save.

>> No.38930743

>>38930639
The price for the mark would increase as well, probably on par with Nurgle's cost. Same for Khorne and Slaanesh if they get +1S and +1 WS respectively. It'd be expensive enough to not be overpowered in my opinion.
>>38930657
I've always had the Dawn of War interpretation of Cultists but I guess you're right on that.
>>38930682
The +1 is good when stacked on an existing save but most units don't have one to begin with so a ++6 is about as useful as not having one. Besides, I've never understood how Tzeentch causes it. The other marks Marks sense but that one never did to me.

>> No.38930748

>>38930639
>rediculous
Ridiculous

>> No.38930779

>>38930639
Seeing as most of them still have bolters with a smattering of special weapons?
It would be great for terminators, but not for line CSM.
What about rerolling 1s to hit?
>>38930657
I think he means guardsman statlines and equipment, anon, which is what cultists do NOT have.
>>38930682
Eh, it's a somewhat alright idea, but WAY too situational. Half the marks give bonuses that are always relevant and WILL be of use. Paying the cost of storm shields for a unit, AND the mark?

>> No.38930782

>>38930716
>drop pods
YES! They have some in the fluff that never get put into play and I've never understood why.
>>38930726
I can dig this, that'd make the mark actually viable for standard units.

>> No.38930807

>>38930657
Not really. 6+ armor save vs 5+. No cool guardsman like rules such as orders. No ability to have traitor guard command squads or a traitor guard HQ slot in general.

The Imperial Armor book does a much better job at representing traitor guard. But fuck that pain in the ass random leadership.

>> No.38930814

So I'm really liking the idea for 4th ed style MoT but I'm guessing MoS would overpowered if it was +1WS.
Anybody got an idea to make it more useful?

>> No.38930815

>Fairly priced melee weapons
>Relics that aren't the worst in the game
>Named characters
>Less pages on Militarum Tempestus
>I mean, Christ
>They get their own codex AND take up a good 25% of ours
>Not enough Steel legion/Vostroyan material

>> No.38930845

How to spot a SM player
>Balance Baleflamer, making it str 5 ap 4

>one 170 pts heavy flamer

>> No.38930848

>>38930716
we have drop pods already you numpty, buy IA13 (or just pirate it)

>>38930602
You seem to be under the impression that everything in our codex is shit when it's mainly Khorne and Tzeentch that suck.

Buff cult troops directly, not through marks as that will indirectly buff loads of units that are fine already.

Plague marines are already arguably the best cult troops, you don't need to make them better than fucking zerkers in melee by giving them poisoned 2+, you have a very skewed idea of balance...

>> No.38930857

>>38930815
I'd just continue using the Imperial Guard codex for my traitor guard if it weren't for the fact that they can't ally with CSM or Daemons

>> No.38930866

>>38930815
I personally think Tempestuous should just be put into Militarum.
>>38930807
>>38930779
This is kinda what i meant about the Cultists and Traitor Guardsmen. They shold be fieldable units because they're different enough to merit it. Or at least give Cultists +5 and more options.

>> No.38930872

>>38930845
>B-but... it flies!

>> No.38930877

>>38930845
>that can, with some luck and decent placement, wipe out 70% of an entire squad in cover in a single attack
Stop it, anon, everyone knows that baleflamers were bullshit, as much so as flyrants now.

>> No.38930912

>>38930848
It's honestly pretty rare for plague marines to make it to CC unless they are on bikes, tho.
Even then, they wouldn't have the weight of attacks that zerkers would bring to the table.
1 poison hit is not the same as swinging at ws4 4 times. It would just put them better against MCs in melee.

>> No.38930921

>>38930848
I'm not saying it sucks but its far from good, I do agree Khorne and Tzeentch are underpowered but so is Slaanesh. MoS is rarely useful and an usually only purchased to get IoE. The four options should be balanced rather then the constant Nurgle super lists.
I can see what you're saying about Nurgle getting OP. Maybe instead of Poisoned +4, it gives +5 and the knives just go to +3.

>> No.38930923

>>38930877
The real question is how many multi-meltas do you need to kill one?

>> No.38931107

>>38930921
>MoS is rarely useful

I'd argue otherwise. The jump from I4 to I5 is, theoretically, huge - it means you strike before most other infantry and simultaneously with virtually everything else, as well as making it easier to escape combat and run down fleeing enemies. The problem is that, given how crap assault is in 7th, it just doesn't come up much. Make close combat more appealing, and the Mark of Slaanesh will become a lot more useful.

>> No.38931185

I'd argue that marks should do something unique for each unit, so that there should be some benefit to purchasing, say mark of khorne on havocs or mark of tzeentch on anything. Similar to how Forgeworld does marks for walkers.

>> No.38931194

>>38930912
They've got a better chance of getting there than bezerkers with their T5 and it'd just be too strong even with less attacks as they will murder any IC or MC on the charge.

I'm not saying they will become a dedicated CC unit but it's buffing an already strong unit to silly levels.

Also if they both charge its 2 vs 4 hits, not 1 vs 4.

>>38930921
That's debatable, MoS isn't particularly useful but Noise marines are very good cult troops and even if it's only taken to get IoE that still makes slaneesh quite strong compared to Khorne and Tzeentch.

I think the best way to buff bezerkers would be to keep all the costs the same but give chain-axes rending instead of AP4. This mean they can fill the multi-purpose role they should have as cult troops by being pretty good at whatever they need to fight.

Thousands sons, on the other hand, need some kind of unique rule to make them good I think. Maybe give them BS5 when attacking a unit that the Aspiring Sorcerer has used a psychic power on? This combined with improving Tzeentch magic would work pretty well i think.

>> No.38931286

>>38931107
I agree but I still find it only occasionally useful because it doesn't fully add to the attack, it just lets you hit first which could possibly make it worthwhile but thats situational. I'd think +1 Atk and +1 I would be a worthwhile combination.
>>38931194
I totally agree, however, I think Khorne and Tzeentch should be made nore viable so as to balance the codex with itself. Both their Marks and Icons aren't particularly good, Khorne's is okay but Rage should be compounded with something else as well. Tzeentch's is just bad unless you already have a save, which is why I'm loving the 5++ Iif there is not native save idea.

>> No.38931305

>>38931194
Alright, I understand what you are getting at.
But I think it's also a case of PMs just being damn good for what they are, why not raise the rest of the cult troops to that level, y'know?
I agree about giving chainaxes rending. More fun? Give any unit that replaces their weapon with another CCW +1I.
>BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
>BUT YOUR BLOOD FIRST!

>> No.38931315

>>38930639
Seems like a fair tradeoff for CSM not having ATSKNF.

>> No.38931326

>>38930923
One can, with some luck and decent placement, wipe out 100% of an entire heldrake in cover in a single attack

>> No.38931343

I say the HQs should work like Arc-Demagogues in the FW Renegades list:
Lord (3w csm), Exalted Champion (2w), and Daemon Prince.

Lords and Exalted Champs can take one of the following devotions:
Sorcerer (up to lv2 for champs, lv3 for lords; Tzeentch optional upgrade)
Warpsmith
Dark Apostle (lord version can be lv1 psyker?)
Berserker (gets Khorne cult options)
Noise Marine (Slaaneshi options)
Plague Marine (Nurgle Option)

I'd also like to see the return of Veteran Traits. A Lord/E.Champ w/o a devotion would be able to take more Veteran Traits than one who does.

>> No.38931350

>>38931286
Yeah I think Tzeentch can be strong already, though it should be made a bit cheaper across the board.

And I get what you're saying, I'm looking at it more from a mono-god perspective, atleast troops wise as that's generally how I build my lists.

>> No.38931401

>>38931350
I meant MoT btw, not Tzeentch as a whole.

And yeah MoK is pretty shit, but it's really fluffy, I think they should just make it cheaper to make it better as assault is generally better the more units you can field.

>> No.38931411

>>38930602
Give it up anon. You guys are getting 4 copy/pasted god books and thats it. Your codex has been abandoned for these god books that were printed and ready to ship a year ago. You will be the bottom feeders for years to come, sorry about that but thats how it is.

Look at the Khorne book. No new statlines for some of the worst units in the parent codexes. 4 of the 5 formations are straight up garbage.

And this trash comes right after that Necron book too.? Ouch. I truly feel bad for you guys.

>> No.38931426

>>38930716
Dreadclaw Drop Pod is a 100 point assault vehicle that comes in turn 1. Its the best transport in the game thats not a Wave Serpent.

>> No.38931487

>>38930602
>make 1k sons into rubrics

...i just noticed how odd their name is. the other cults aren't the named legion. perhaps this was on purpose? i would say keep the name. sorcerer gets no mandatory roll on tzeentch table, drop squad cost to 120, possibly drop the 4++ for either 2 wounds or they can't be harmed by s3 or less like 3rd edition. give them the option for a heavy bolter

>tzeentch table
>primaris doombolt, range 24"
>1 boon of mutation s3
idk about the other powers. possibly gives ignores cover or ap2 guns.

>> No.38931508

>>38931411
pretty much, but doing some homebrew/house rules is fun. i wouldn't mind playing an ork or nid player who used the last book synpase/mob rules

>> No.38931512

>>38930602
What is IA13?

>> No.38931517

>>38930877
>everyone knows that baleflamers were bullshit, as much so as flyrants now

In a game where half of the armies have at least one bullshit unit, nerfing the Baledrake looked pretty arbitrary and mean. Especially in the context of that shitty codex. Was a Baledrake more op than a:
>Wave Serpent
>Riptide
>Wraithknight
>DS'ing D-Scythes
>Centurions
>Flyrants
>Wraiths

or any of a dozen other units in the game? No. It was the one unit CSM
had that was on par with the other game changing units.

>> No.38931567

>>38931426
still can't assault turn one

>> No.38931615

>>38930602
Tyranids:

>Psykers have access to Powers of the Hive Mind and Biomancy
>Shadow in the Warp: +1 to Deny the Witch against all powers within Synapse range, except for Powers of the Hive Mind

>Swarmlord always has 4++ invuln. save. Reduce cost by 35.
>Old One Eye: WS+1, T+1
>Maleceptor's Psychic Overload has two modes:
>>Warp Charge 1, 24'' Focussed Witchfire.
>>Warp Charge 2, 9'' Nova
>Reduce Maleceptor's point cost by 25.
>Pyrovores have Acid Spray instead(see below), fix Volatile bug
>Hive Guard: BS +1
>Ripper Swarm: Change type to Beasts.

>Warlord Trait 1 - Nature's Bane: At the beginning of each movement phase, choose one terrain within 12'' of Warlord. That terrain counts as Dangerous Terrain until the beginning of next movement phase.
>Warlord Trait 2 - Heightened Senses: One unit within 12'' of Warlord gains Night Fighting, Skyfire and Interceptor
>Warlord Trait 5 - Digestive Denial: 12'' range from Warlord. At beginning of shooting phase, choose any one terrain piece and reduce its cover save by 1 until the end of that shooting phase.
>Warlord Trait 6 - Adaptive Biology: Warlord has 5+ Feel No Pain. After taking a wound increase to 4+ Feel No Pain.

>Acid Spray: 12'' Template S6 AP4 Assault 1 Rending
>Rupture Cannon: 48'' S10 AP2 Assault 2
>Shreddershard Beetles: S4 AP5, Assault 1 Rending Shred

>Maw-Claws of Thyrax: Gives Preferred Enemy(Killed Unit Codex) to all units within 6''
>Norn Crown: +6'' Synapse, Eternal Warrior
>Miasma Cannon: Upgrade shooting modes to Large Blast / Torrent
>Ymgarl Factor: Permanent +1 to Armour save, at each assault phase choose between: S+1, T+1, A+1. No bonus can be taken in consecutive phases. Reduce point cost by 5.
>Reaper of Obliterax: Reduce point cost by 10.

>> No.38931646

>>38931615
Oops, I mean:
>Acid Spray: 12'' Torrent S6 AP4 Assault 1 Rending

>> No.38931656

>>38931350
>>38931401
Mark of Tzeentch can be good but only if the unit already has an invuln save, otherwise it's useless. Making it 5++ on saveless units would make it very viable.
As for Khorne, MoK isn't all that good, Rage is, but Counterattack isnt. Adding in +1S would make it great but the price would have to be around the same as Nurgle marks. IoK would be better if Furious Charge and re-roll is alright, but its simply not good enough. In addition, I think the bonus from MoK would result in the Berserkers still having S5 (like how Noise Marines are I5 and Plague Marines are T5) but the Chainaxes should be free to them. Basically, they'd lose counter attack but get Chainaxes in place which I think would be a positive trade off.

>> No.38931696

>>38931656
This would also make MoK and MoT useful on standard units like CSM allowing them to actually be tactically diverse like they're supposed to be.
The only problem is MoS. The +1 I is alright but it needs something else like +3 to charge or something.

>> No.38931716

>>38931696
What about +1I and Fleet?

>> No.38931772

>>38931517
>why would they nerf a unit that single handedly destroyed the mechanics of the game
>but it was my bullshit overpowered unit!

They didn't nerf it enough, the baledrake is still the single most overpowered unit in the game. And that's saying something.

>> No.38931773

>>38930602
>>Noise Marines automatically come with Sonic Blaster and cost 22 base
You want to nerf noise marines?

>>Fix Mutilators (S&P and Weapon swapping are bad) and make them Heavy Support
Mutilators suck because shooting is so good compared to assault troops. This seems more like a fix the game thing. Not sure what you think making them Hvy Support does either.

>> No.38931779

>>38931615

I am getting a chubby just reading these

>> No.38931804

>>38931615

Please do something to nake hormagants and genestealers not shit

>> No.38931813

Here's my summary of the changes to marks I'm going for so far:
>MoK gives +1 Str and Rage
>MoT gives 5++ to base units, +1 to existing invuln saves
>MoN stays the same
>MoS gives +1 I and +3 to run/charge
As for Icons, only Excess and Vengeance work imo.
>MoK should be Furious Charge, re-roll range, and something else.
>MoT should do something involving the psychic phase, maybe make the leader of the squad a psyker or something
>MoN should give poisoned 5+

>> No.38931828

>>38931772

I want whatever this guy is smoking!

>> No.38931843

>>38930845
>ignoring the fact that it auto hits anywhere on the board, ignoring cover
>attached to a platform with AV 12 that can only be hit on 6s and is immune to assault, and therefore half the units in the game

Actually I play IG, and str 5, ap 4 would still be bullshit to me.

The problem is them putting a template weapon on a flyer, since all the balance for templates relies on the difficulty positioning them in the first place.

also, How to spot a Chaos SM player:
>but our codex sucks, therefore we should get to spam an overpowered unit to pretend we're competative

You are the figurative cancer.

>> No.38931846

>>38931716
That works
>>38931773
Dammit, Miscalculation on my part. Noise Marines should be 19 points a piece with Sonic blasters automatically.

>> No.38931854

>>38930807
If you want to play traitor guard, play AM.
No human soldier is going to hold their position of power for long when the chaos marines show up. Cultists represent them just fine.

>> No.38931880

>>38931843

You are the one sounding asshurt here, m8, and going by your codex I can see why.

>> No.38931889

>>38931773
Also, the Mutilators should just basically be Obliterators but in Melee like how Terminators and Assault Terminators work. Therefore, I feel they should be in the same category

>> No.38931896

>>38931567
Yes you can. Turn 1 DS --> Assault, thats how assault vehicles work.

>> No.38931901

>>38931828
The only reason it isn't still competative is everyone stopped fielding infantry outside of transports and/or actually has anti-air weapons.

It is still stupid broken.

>> No.38931922

>>38931896
>Turn 1 DS --> Assault

You cant deep strike and assault on the same turn.

>> No.38931925

>>38931896
most things can't deep strike turn 1 and only blood angels by a formation can assault like that

>> No.38931932

>>38931772
>hey didn't nerf it enough, the baledrake is still the single most overpowered unit in the game

trolling CSM players, never change /tg/

>> No.38931934

>>38930602
land raider variant with 2 twin link hades auto cannon, same transport capacity as crusader
2nd part might be too much but only have 1 raider loadout is fucking boring

>> No.38931958

>>38931880
Hey, I've got no problem with my codex. It's just a shame that all the bitch tryhards get all worked up about loosing the one no talent cheese unit they relied on to actually win games. Pretending like that makes up for the haphazard codex they got (which is still relatively good if you know what you're doing, but still dissapointing)

It's not as if I can't deal with them, either, but I wish I didn't have to. Spamming so many sabre platforms takes away from the fun units I could be fielding instead.

>> No.38931973

>>38931843
>also, How to spot a Chaos SM player:
>>but our codex sucks, therefore we should get to spam an overpowered unit to pretend we're competative
>You are the figurative cancer

I dont get that from CSM players at all. They do have a legitimate grip imo. I have most of the codexes, and play 6 diff armies, one of them being CSM. They are by far the worst book of the dozen or so I am familiar with.

>> No.38931974

>>38931932
Wouldn't you rather get a good and balanced codex, then one unflavorful/un-fluffy tryhard unit?

>> No.38931999

>>38931973
Sorry, I was specifically referring to those who think the helldrake should make up for the rest of the codex's inadequacies.

What CSM need is a better codex, not some chessy crutch unit.

>> No.38932003

>>38931958

Yeah no, you are delusional. CSM is shit, so is AM.

>> No.38932029

>>38931896
No retard, assault vehicle rules state that the passengers can't assault if the vehicle arrived from reserve that turn.

>> No.38932040

>>38932003
Eh, I don't care. I hated 5th edition when no one wanted to play against IG. The only reason people think AM is crap is b/c they can't spam tanks and still auto win.

Although, it was dissapointing more do to a lack of flavor than due to anything else.

>> No.38932046

>>38931934
No power of the machine spirit sucks too. We get a 10pt discount but I'd buy that back in a second if it was an option.

If land raiders were worth taking that is.

>> No.38932061

>>38931901
>competative

It's competitive you fucking moron.
Go be a spastic somewhere else and stop shitting up this thread because you were raped by a baleflamer. Serves you right for being tactically inept and bunching all your units up together.

>> No.38932066

>>38932003
then how would you fix AM besides adding in the missing characters?

>> No.38932120

>>38931958
>(which is still relatively good if you know what you're doing, but still dissapointing

CSM codex is objectively one of the worst in the game right now. A simple glance at the units, rules, and point costs is all it takes to see this. Its also widely accepted that the CSM book has many problems. And take a look at LVO and Adepticon results for further evidence that CSM are not really competitive atm. Between the two tournaments they had 1 (ONE) appearance in the top 32 of either event. It was at LVO and he used Daemon allies.

So, while you are entitled to your opinion, and your irrational anger toward Baledrakes and CSM players in general - you arent in the majority opinion. And you sound like a spiteful little faggot. We should all want balance in the game, when one army is too strong it too weak it cheapens the experience for all of us.

>> No.38932126

>>38931889
>Also, the Mutilators should just basically be Obliterators but in Melee like how Terminators and Assault Terminators work. Therefore, I feel they should be in the same category
They don't fill a heavy support role. Maybe if they could fly around the board. You can barely toy with the idea of taking them now, there's no way they get on the table if they fought for a heavy support slot.

>> No.38932164

>Nobs Ld 8
>mobs of 10+ are stubborn
>bosspole allows rolling Ld on 3D6, discarding highest
>sluggas get access to special cc weapons (big choppa, burna)
>units take D3 wounds per failed Ld test
>big choppas get rending
>cybork body grants +1T
>painboys reduced to 1W, taken as per meks
>shooting through grots gives +1 to cover save
>trukks hold 15 models, only S3 if exploding
>bring back deffrolla
>deepstriking rokk fortification
>reduce points cost of flyers, field in skwadruns
>kans fast attack, lose shitty nerfs
>deffdread elites
>looted wagon slot allows 1 allied vehicle, random movement (2D6), BS2
>lootas gain weapon options
>big shoota made assault 3/heavy 5
>guns on battlewagons are twin-linked again
>nazdreg/wazzdakka/zogwort back with a vengeance

>> No.38932316

>>38932164
>deepstriking rokk fortification
Dis is gonna be gud

>> No.38932670

>>38932061
I'm new, when was the baleflamer nerfed? Was that this edition?

>> No.38932810

>>38932670
About a year ago. For a few months you could put the thin end of the template within 6" of the weapon.
You could still minimize its impact by spacing meq models out. If you used the 2" allowed, the template hit 3, maybe 4 models if you were lucky.
It also allowed the Baledrake to flame flyers it had just vector striked. Cheesy, but using a Baleflamer on a flyer wasnt really optimal anyway.
The nerf was pretty polarizing, but didnt change much. That iteration of the Baledrake didnt have CSM beating competitive lists - it just beat up on retards at the flgs without the common sense to space out their meq.

>> No.38932814

>>38932670
I think it was still 6th edition. They errata'd that the bale flamer could only fire front arc. So you can't vector strike a rhino and then burn the people that were in it.

>> No.38932850

>>38932164
OP here, this my tied for first army with Chaos and I agree with all your ideas.
Also, shootas should be free for boyz again and kommandoz need some more options.

>> No.38932866

>>38931804
>genestealers not shit
5++, Scything Talons for 2 pts per/model and Assault Grenades?

>> No.38932874

>>38932810
People on /tg/ always talk about the old 'op' Baleflamer nerf like it was a victory for all of mankind. That nerf, coupled with the nerf to vector strike pretty much gutted the unit. Its still a decent flyer, but the Vendetta is better for the same points. The Stormraven is waaaaay better for 200 points.

>> No.38932934

>>38931512
The surest way not to play.

>> No.38932977

>>38932850
I'm happy to have shootas as an upgrade. They do make boyz undeniably better all-rounders.

Kommandos should be able to take tankbusta bomms and bomm squigs.

>> No.38932995

>>38931804
Hormagants have their cost reduced to something like 3 ppm. Might be a bit low, but with the state of both assault and grunts, they need to be cheep to be viable.

>> No.38933033

>>38932810
>>38932814
That doesn't sound that OP, being able to flame a veichle you vector strike, was that how torrent used to work?

>> No.38933060

>>38930602
>>Icon of Flame does something fucking good (Invurn or Ranged Boost that's not Soul Blaze)
If I may make a recommendation?

>> No.38933096

>>38933033
Nah, you didn't flame the vehicle.
>Enter table
>Vector transport during movement phase, force occupants to disembark
>Burn occupants with Baleflamer

Now, you needed a good roll vs. the vezhicle to wreck it, but seeing my nemesis' face as I burned his IG command squad wholesale was totally worth it the only time it worked.

>> No.38934137

>>38933096
Oh right, it kinda makes sense that they would change that though as it'd be kind of like the helldrake is shitting fire on the enemy he just vectored even though the flamers in the front.

>> No.38934717

>>38930639
>>38930639
let's do what they made with IA 13
+1 bs on overwatch

>> No.38935002

>>38931804
>>38932995

>Hormagaunts count as Beasts and come stock with Adrenal Glands, without point increase.
(Effectively a 2 point decrease per model.)

>Adrenal Glands give Fleet, Furious Charge, and Hit & Run.

Hit & Run Gaunts would be fun.

>> No.38935204

>>38930688
Mos is already pretty good as you will be going before anyone and pretty much already have better WS then everybody else.

>> No.38935274

ORKS:

>Army-wide special rule: Waaagh Field
every git* gets +1 to weapon skill, attacks, toughness, and strength fer every 3 otha gits* within 3". during a WAAAGH, they get +2 instead.

* except grots (or squigs), because they ain't propally orky

>> No.38935285

Seriously why the fuck did GW buff the Necron so much? I thought they were doing a kinda good job keeping the codices around the same power level. I guess I'm just salty because for 1 point less than a marine all their units basically have a good invul/FnP and their standard guns are actually pretty damn good.

>> No.38935330

>>38935274
That would be a fucking bookeeping nightmare.

>> No.38935437

>>38935330
thats the best I can come up with to fit the WAAAGH field fluff

>> No.38935547

>>38935285
Just stop please

The Necron Codex was only good because of powerful and (comparatively) dirt cheap overpowered options

Necrons are basically in the exact same place they were before while this is high up the army didn't really get any buffs that weren't compensating for bringing other options in to line balance wise

Also Necrons still get to sit on their thumbs in the psychic phase and get rolled over by invisible centurions and shrouded flying mc's

>> No.38935582

>>38931411
The fact that mutilators arent in the khorne book skeeves me right the fuck off. With just a little work they could have had a niche, and they are a natural fit fluff wise.

>> No.38935676

>>38931813
Units with IoT generate an additional warp charge for every mastery level present inside unit, or let you generate warp charges on your next turn if they kill things?

>> No.38935830

Speaking of Chaos, some anon leaked the new daemonkin book over at >>38931542
Doesn't look like it fixes any of the issues Chaos has though.

>> No.38937119

>>38933060
>rolls of 1 double the strength of the attack

tzeentch that shit isn't funny, stop doing this

>> No.38937303

>>38932164
Ork and AM player here. I agree with all of your suggestions except for maybe the rending on big choppas. I especially agree with the cybork body buff.

>> No.38938618

>>38932061
>bunching all your units up together.

Confirmed for not understanding how torrent templates work

>> No.38938678

>>38935285
The only real problem is that they priced all the necron units at 2/3rds of what they are actually worth.

So playing 1500 pts of necrons is more like playing 2000pts worth of similar units.

>> No.38939455

>>38930602
Did this years ago, rare tweaking since.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/so1zdym4m0p5l2q/Chaos_Space_Marines_6th_Edition_Codex_Alt(2).pdf

>> No.38939528

>>38938618
>he thinks Torrent changes anything in regards to how many units will fit under the template

>> No.38939572

Fix chaos: use forgeworld.
Also: Plague marines access to heavy weapons.

>> No.38939821

Mark of Tzeentch being +1 Invuln is good but also make it so that:

- Units with Mark of Tzeentch that have access to bolter weaponry can purchase Inferno Bolts at a small cost, like 2-3 points per marine, 5 for terminators etc
- Rubric Marines have both the 5+ Invuln and AP3 baseline but now they have 2 Wounds each. Sorcerer still mandatory, costs unchanged but since they follow the god of magic, they don't don't have to roll for spells, they can CHOOSE them
-Vehicles can take marks too, Tzeentch vehicles can purchase Inferno Bolts as well

- Inferno Bolts can only be purchased if your warlord is Tzeentch-marked (like the rule to have Rubrics as troops from Elites)

Bam, Thousand Sons just got miles better. Firepower increased a fair bit, the mark is now useful (it can even be given to bikes for an AP3 hit-and-run unit when before it would be useless) and the Rubric Marines have become a stunning cornerstone of the army as they should be.

>> No.38940036

>>38935547

So we'll be back wasen't retardedly buffed from a single save at the end to super feel no pain? And necrons don't have the hands down best CC units in the game now?

The entire world must have lied then. I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. It sounds like a happy place to work.

>> No.38940155

>>38935547
>didn't really get any buffs
>Wraiths got RP, +1T, points reduction

>> No.38941063

>>38937119
What are you talking about? That shit's hilarious.

Imagine if it also doubled/halved the AP

>> No.38943920

>fix

>> No.38944850

>>38934137
well the heldrake does have a long dragon neck so....

>> No.38944897

>>38935204
>Mos is already pretty good as you will be going before anyone and pretty much already have better WS then everybody else.
Ahahahahahaha. Your WS is average, it is by no means special, anyone you have a better WS than you would hit before anyway with I 4. What most annoys me is how relatively weak chosen and chaos lords are. Chosen should be badass motherfuckers instead they are pretty much regular dudes with some better weapons. Chaos Lords are space marines with possibly thousands of years of combat experience and yet it isn't hard to make a captain who would wreck almost any generic chaos lord.

>> No.38944903

>>38930602
Give an option to pick your Veteran Skill when you buy VTLW instead of Hatred (Marines) across the board (let's say a mix of HH rules and USRs). Maybe add some Veteran Skills to vehicles a-la FW Legacies of Ruin.

>> No.38945450

>>38930602

>Mob Rule
>Everything the same except for
>2-3 d3 attacks on the unit at a chosen character's strength
>4-6 d6 attacks on the unit at majority strength

Because where the hell did my Nob pull 3 extra attacks out of his ass or my Boyz and Mek suddenly become S4 for no reason.

Also wacky rules for Roks already.
Give me a dumb table to roll on for what happens when it hits the ground and whatnot.

>> No.38945694

>>38930602

>Codex Orks:
>Models with 'Ere We Go! ignore the Unwieldy Universal Special Rule.
>During a WAAAGH, all models double their initiative characteristic when they charge
>Mob Rule Squabble Result: If the unit has 10 or more Wounds...
>New Rule: More Dakka! Orks barely bother to aim in the first place, generally thinking that if their shots go in the general direction of the enemy, that's good enough. All Ork units use their full ballistic skill (such as it is!) when making Snap Shots. This does not allow them to fire weapons that are disallowed when making Snap Shots.

>> No.38945788

Berserkers drop to 17 points and can take chain axes for 2 pts per model, for every 8 models in the unit 1 model may take eviscerator.

Noise marines come with sonic blasters as standard(including champion) and cost 19 pts per model, for every 6 models in the unit 1 model may take blastmaster or doom siren

Thousand sons get +1 wound and price increase to 26 pts, for every 9 models in the nut 1 model may take heavy bolter with inferno bolts.

plague marines drop to 23 pts per model, for every 7 models in the unit you may take 1 plague bomb(one use only, the unit gains shrouded until their next turn)

marks of chaos:
Khorne:+1 attack and rage
Slaanesh:+1 ws and initiative and counter-attack
nurgle:+1 toughness and may not run
Tzeentch:+1 inv(5+ if no native inv) and re-roll 1s to-hit.

That's enought for now

>> No.38945901

>>38931974
What exactly is unfluffy about a helldrake?

>> No.38946047

>>38945694

>Initiative 6 Powerklaw Nobz/MANz
>BS2 Overwatching base

Yeeeaaah no.
I play Orks and while all that'd be nice that is some fucking bullshit.

What the hell do you think we are, Eldar?
We ain't no Striking Scorpion Exarchs.

>> No.38946280

>>38937303
I do think big choppas need something more though. Even if they did get the ap5 buff this ed that's really only meaning guardsmen don't get armour saves against it.

I reckon big choppas should just be power axes. They're already covered in zappy bits and big revving engines.

>> No.38946322

>>38930682

>+ 1 to invulnerable saves is good, it would be a lot better if CSM could take storm shields

I'd either avoid having a source of 3++ in the codex or cap it at 3++.

2++ is just kinda a bit crazy-stupid.

>> No.38946431

>>38939455
Actually if the entire thread is about fixes to rules, just have the entire folder. Some of them are oldish and I can't remember the changes I made. I gave up once the shitdexes of 7th started coming out.

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/g1ug2cy9s93h3/40K_Edits%2C_Homebrews_and_Amendments

>> No.38946452

>Faith powers are not 1 shot but can be attempted every turn.
>Celestians get power mauls + bolters + bolt pistol and I4 base. Their faith power is Relentless + Furious Charge
>Seraphim get I4 base (Hit and run is kinda useless on I3)
>Cannoness' can take Heavy Weapons or Jump Packs so you can add them to any type of squad (As they have a hard time going anywhere by default)
>More Ranged Relics, Less Melee. SOB are not a melee army at their best.
>Penitent Engines gain that Mechanicus Walker rule (The +3 inches movement one) to actually make them fast but fragile, drop a bit in points.
>Give Repentia Crusader and a 5++ inv on top of the feel no pain so they can actually take a hit, since they are a footslogging assault unit that hits at init 1.

Celestians are a joke pretending to be a melee unit right now and it's never made sense that such a ranged-happy army can't give it's leaders a decent ranged weapon.

>> No.38946513

>>38946047

Bear in mind that the double initiative is only during WAAAGH, which is once per game. As for the Overwatch, Orks are already penalized harshly for not getting the charge, and BS2 isn't that significant.

>> No.38946764

>>38946452
Let's just start with a new and actual codex for them. Not like it'll ever happen.

Anyway, for chaos I'd like to see Dark Apostles and Warpsmiths to be not useless, and some way Chaos Undivided would work too aside from "no mark 4 you". Also, Possessed need a serious buff. I've never even heard of them being played outside of fluff lists.

Things like the SM chapter tactics would also be cool to differentiate between the legions.

>> No.38946781

>>38946764

>Let's just start with a new and actual codex for them. Not like it'll ever happen.

Yeah but I figured that it would be better to start with the units we do have instead of inventing something wiz-bang. That always turns into a clusterfuck of what REALLY fits or what doesn't.

>> No.38946847

Tiered marks:
Tier 3: HQs
Tier 2: Cosen, Terminators
Tier 1: Everyone else
Individual unit listings will show what marks may be given to a unit. Some units will not be able to take any mark, some only some of the marks.
All marks confer Fearless, Icons add counter attack and furious charge.

>Marks
MoS
>Tier 1: +1WS
>Tier 2: +1WS, and +1I
>Tier 3: +1WS, +1I, and FNP 5+
MoK
>Tier 1: +1S
>Tier 2: +1S, and +1WS
>Tier 3: +1S, +1WS, and +2A
MoT
>Tier 1: +1BS
>Tier 2: +1BS, and +1Inv
>Tier 3: +1BS, +1Inv, and +1ML
MoN
>Tier 1: +1T
>Tier 2: +1T, and FNP 5+
>Tier 3: +1T, FNP 5+, and +1W
MoCU
>Tier 1: Unit may choose 1 USR from the list below.
>Tier 2: Unit may choose 2 USR from the list below.
>Tier 3: Unit may choose 3 USR from the list below.
USR List:
Sniper
Stealth
Furious charge
Counter attack
Relentless
Interceptor
Hatred
Prefered Enemy
Tank Hunter

>> No.38946884

>>38946847

+1 WS is a lot less fun than +1 I for basically everyone and not really on par with the other options.

>> No.38946901

>>38946884
>not really on par with the other options.
How so?

>> No.38946928

>>38946781
True true. I don't play them, but I know 2 people started playing them in our gaming club/FLGS. I was pretty surprised, but they're laid-back guys not too interested in the competitive side since SoB haven't really been relevant since... what, 4th?

>> No.38946943

>>38946901
Not that anon, but hitting first is often better than hitting a hit more at the same time. There's less attacks coming at you because you already resolved your own attack by the time they get to hit you.

>> No.38946971

>>38946928

Eh, there is a lot of SOB bitching but we've never been too bad either. We tend to sit in between 'Thoroughly mediocre' and 'The upper end of middling' a lot of the time.

Like, we are nowhere near the top but 'Shooting people with bolters, flamers and meltaguns' is hard to make BAD.

The issue with the SOB has always been lack of options. Our Melee is a hampered heavily by being 'Humans can only be 3s' and we've never really been given the gear to make up for it (Or allowed to break normal stats).

It's more an issue of Width of Options, rather than Depth of Power.

>> No.38946982

>>38946943
Hitting a bit more at the same time. Oh well.

>> No.38946998

>>38946943

It also doesn't help that +1 Str works fine for the melee-happy Khorne but Slanneshi units run both melee and ranged. +1 I wasn't super for the ranged but it at least let them escape combat better or threaten chargers with some losses first.

>> No.38947584

>>38931194
>Noisemarines

I use these guys all the time. A five man MSU squad is one of the best small infantry units in the game.

>> No.38947650

>>38934717
Oh no. Slow and purposeful :^]

>> No.38948012

>>38946513
>take green tide and spam MANz missiles
>I4 boyz and I6 MANz/nobz every turn

I like your changes, but all of them together is too crazy

>> No.38948174

>>38932874
It is because it was a stupidly good pub stomper on the extreme end but yeah, the thing is gutted

>> No.38949661

>>38940155
are you smoking crack the only buff they got was +1T they got a 10 point increase in base cost and only have RP if you take the formation and choose to give that special rule to them also they have to be within a certain range of a spider in order to get it. so that just means shoot spider kill spider formation is now useless.

>> No.38949733

>>38949661
They got +1 Wound, +1 Toughness, Beast move, and NO increase in points. They went from 40 per model to...40 per model. Hell, the loadout you really want is actually cheaper with the cost reduction on whip coils.

>> No.38949902

>>38930602
>Brainleech Devourers change to St5, Assault 4, Shred.
>Hive Tyrants can purchase a 2+ save for +30 points. Cannot be taken alongside Wings.
>Venom Cannons become St7 AP4, Assault 2.
>Heavy Venom Cannons become St9 AP4, Assault 3.
>Deathspitters become Assault 1 Blast.
>Monstrous Creatures gain access to Twin-linked Doomspitters: St6 AP3 Assault 1 Blast.
>Models within Synapse Range count as having Assault Grenades when charging through cover
>Carnifexes and Hormagaunts increase to WS4
>Tyranid melee weapons revert to how they worked in the 5th edition book; base Attacks stat increased for many units across the codex, Tyranids can use all of their Melee weapons at once, combining them into a single profile that uses the best Strength, AP, and all associated special rules. Scything Talons revert to granting re-rolls to hit.
>Warriors and Raveners increase to Strength and Toughness 5. Lictors and Pyrovores increase to T5.
>Tyrannofex increases to BS4

There's other issues that need fixed - the Special Characters should be looked at, and the Toxicrene and Maleceptor both need to be reworked - but this would hopefully fix the most glaring issues dragging the Tyranid codex down.

>> No.38949946

>>38949902
> Deathleaper's Fangirl
> No suggestions on buffing Deathleaper

Come on, step it up!

>> No.38949963

>>38949902
Oh, wait, something I forgot:
>Trygon Tunnel reworked to function like the Stormtalon's escort rule; you can nominate a single non-Monstrous Creature unit comprised of no more than 20 models (usual Bulky etc limits apply) and place it in reserves. When the Trygon arrives, the selected unit arrives automatically within 6" and does not scatter.

>> No.38950016

Fuck giving noise marines the sonic blaster to begin with, what if you wanna run them for assault?

>> No.38950018

>>38949902
I want hive guard to be BS4 and WS 3. It bothers me that a shooting unit has better WS than BS.

>> No.38950050

>>38950016
then youre overpaying for them.

>> No.38950075

>>38949902
>Doomspitters.
Yep, that's some good GW naming right there. You're hired.

>> No.38950085

>>38949902
I wouldn't make D.spitters blast. That worked in 4th, but the rules for blast now make that a chore, especially at BS3. Plus, if the Warriors and Raveners get S and T increase, they need to either be a bit more expensive or lose a wound.

>> No.38950154

>>38949946
Like I said, all of the Special Characters need reworked, but I wouldn't call them a priority. Deathleaper should be an extremely good disruptor and character assassin, but weak against masses of troops. Old One Eye should be almost impossible to kill but painfully slow. Swarmie needs something to make him special, and not just a Hive Tyrant plus.

>>38950018
This is true. I'd like to make Shock Cannons function like grappling hooks, able to drag enemy models in closer or chain extra hits on them, as well.

>>38950085
>but the rules for blast now make that a chore

If I have to sit through IG players resolving 12 small blast template shots from a Wyvern battery, they can damn well do the same when I shoot back.

>if the Warriors and Raveners get S and T increase, they need to either be a bit more expensive or lose a wound.

I disagree. Pretty much every Ogryn-sized infantry unit in the game has is St5 (at least), T5, with 3 wounds and costs ~30 points. Warriors have an absolutely terrible damage output before you start layering on their rather expensive upgrades, and Raveners remain pretty fragile with only their 5+ save to protect them.

>> No.38950226

>>38949733
Ok you are just an idiot

they did not get +1 wound
The only difference between jump ignore terrain and beast ignore terrain is that they get fleet and lose hammer of wrath
Yes points were increased because they cost the same with one upgrade and are more expensive with any other option
dropping enemies to initiative 1 is better than having initiative 5 since now they attack at the same time as most combat oriented characters and after a good number of combat mc's

At least learn what you are whining aobut before spouting inane crap, but nope you are just going to keep yelling to the skies about 1 turn of feel no pain before they are too far to benefit from it

>> No.38950230

>>38950154
I don't think that should pull things closer. Maybe it would be cool if they could ark to vehicles like the old necron Telsa destructor. Is it me or does it feel like the carnifex needs an extra wound or something?

>> No.38950319

>>38950230
Carnifexes, I think, are in the same boat as Dreadnoughts; they're still playable (in before people start crying about how easy AV12 vehicles are to kill), but they're no longer among the most intimidating single models on the battlefield. They've been superseded by things like Trygons and Knights, and combined with the steady increase in shooting power we've seen since 3rd edition, they feel a lot less scary than they used to be.

Personally, I don't have a problem with that. It's okay for Carnifexes to be a cheapish Monstrous Creature designed to be fielded in packs. They just need to be able to hit worth a damn when they reach combat. Having their base price dropped a little would be nice as well.

As for the Shock Cannons...maybe if they successfully score a Wound or a Glance/Pen on a Walker or Monstrous Creature, then the target suffers a second automatic hit on a 4+?

Alternatively, rework them as anti-air weapons. Swap Blast for Skyfire, and give them a chance to drag enemy aircraft out of the skies, like Ork Traktor Kannons?

>> No.38950388

Lootas get gitfindas as basic equipment.

>> No.38950431

>>38950319
I like the idea of hive guard having an option of being an AA platform. Though wouldn't that option be redundant due to Flying monstrous creatures being better AA?

How bad would it be just to give the guns they have a range increase and not change them other than that?

>> No.38950435

>>38930602
Fully split C:CSM into two. Codex: Renegades of Chaos and Codex: Veterans of the Long War. One is like the current codex, but with slight points decreases on most units. Regular CSM would be BS3 with the option to buy back to 4. Their rules are supposed to represent recently turned Chaos Space Marines. Special Characters for several of the major new Chaos Warbands. This would basically be the current codex with price cuts on nearly everything and different special characters. Cut Rubrics, maybe add in some sort of Scourged unit to keep the big 4.

Veterans of the Long War is the codex for those groups of marines that still operate like a member of the original Chaos Legions. Legio tactics like the loyalist Chapter Tactics. These are the Chaos Grey Knights. There would be a notable difference between the Cult units available to the Renegades and those available to the VotLW.

Black Legion would be absent from both, and would instead get a supplement with some SC's and rules for using the two codexes together.

>> No.38950488

>>38950435
The veterans one doesn't seem to have too much wrong with it. Though personally I think the idea of when a marines turns traitor going down to BS3 would be stupid. Not having ATSKNF hurts enough already.

>> No.38950508

>>38950435

>Regular CSM would be BS3 with the option to buy back to 4

That would be a pretty fun counterpart to SOB actually. Each of them gets one half of the space marine toys. One gets the physical stats, the other gets the skill and morale.

>> No.38950510

>>38931487
Unlike the others, Thousand Sons only come from the original Thousand Sons legion. This also makes them ridiculously rare. The other three cult units can be made in the 41st millennium.

>> No.38950592

>>38950488
The idea with renegades at BS3 is that it both enables more horde-style gameplay and represents the shoddily made and/or decayed gene seed that Chaos uses to make new astartes when they don't corrupt loyalists.
>>38950508
That's kinda part of it. In order for actual Chaos Marines to be good, they either need to get cheaper or significantly better. Renegades goes the cheaper route, VotLW goes the other.

>> No.38950604

Fix the disparity between hqs and their cult units. IE, khorne lords dont have furious charge, nurgle lords dont have feel no pain, etc.

>> No.38950654

>>38950592
Maybe it would work better if the downgrade to renegades was dependent on the chaos mark, so that the area where they're worse would be the opposite of the area where they're specialized, like MoK decreasing ballistic skill but boosting melee ability.

>> No.38950713

>>38950654
That doesn't help with the fundamental price issue.

>> No.38951019

Terminator armor should give a +1 toughness bonus.

>> No.38951228

Codex:Space Marines
>Bikes on Command Squads increased by 10 point to 45points
>Space Marine Bike cost increased by 5 points per bike
>Grav gun special weapon now costs 20points
>Grav Cannon reduced to 4shots
>Grav Cannon now gives the Gets Hot special rule
>Centurion Devastator TL Lascannons changed to 2 Lascannons, Missiles changed to 2 missiles, TL Heavy Bolter changed to 2 Heavy Bolters.
>Tactical Marines point cost increased by 3 per model
>Tactical Marines with Bolters now have access to Special Ammunition
>Tactical Marines can take 2 heavy weapons or 2 special weapons
>All Veterans (Sternguard, Vanguard, Sargent's and Terminators) now have 2 Wounds
>All Veterans are now BS5, WS5.
>Terminator Armor now give +1T
>Sternguard point cost increased by 2 points per model.
>Assault Marines given +1A
>Assault Centurions can now fire at one target and charge a different target
>Devastator Signum now costs 10 points, but grants the squad Interceptor.
>Flak now standard in all Missile Launcher missiles.

Oh, and for both SM and Chaos Marines
>Open Topped Rhino for 40 points.


I want to make the "Useful in all situations" units more useful in more situations, the veterans to not be suicide soldiers, and the assault units to be somewhat useful.

>> No.38951796

>>38944850

360-degree fire arc was kinda stupid, but making it 180-degree (like most walkers) would be perfectly acceptable imo. Gives you some flexibility when it comes to target selection and a bit of leeway with positioning.

>> No.38953750

>>38950085
>Plus, if the Warriors and Raveners get S and T increase, they need to either be a bit more expensive or lose a wound.

Why there are so many people that do this?

>Unit X is bad, we should give it Y to make it at least average
>Ok but if you do you have to increase his points or make it worse in some other way

For the love of god, if something is shit it needs to be made better, not a different kind of shit.

>> No.38953789

>>38949733
They costed 35 points, now they cost 40. Whips went from 10 to 3, so a Wraith with whips is now 43 instead of 45. But at the same time whips got a lot worse.

>> No.38953854

>>38953750

Just remember, every time you think "WHAT, A TERMINATOR WITH T5 and W2 FOR 40 POINTS?!" just remember to compare them to Necron Decurion Wraiths and realize that yes, these free buffs can and should happen, because the unit would STILL not be the best in the game.

We still haven't truly embraced the fact that we live in an era of complete bullshit underpriced units. This is why when we see something like "Tyranid Warriors with THOSE stats?!" we are comparing them to the old Tyranids and old 40k. Even with the buffs Tyranid Warriors would still suck dick because YOU COULD JUST TAKE MORE WAVE SERPENTS AND FLYRANTS INSTEAD

>> No.38953946

>>38953854
>we are comparing them to the old Tyranids and old 40k

I don't think that counts. I didn't play in 4th, but from what I heard tyranid warriors were NEVER good. Tyranid went from Nidzilla to Tervigon Swarm to Flyrants. Warriors were never an options.

>> No.38954090

>>38953946
The 4e Nid codex with it's Eternal Warrior in Synapse range made them okay. They could put out a decent number of medium strength blasts with Deathspitters.

>> No.38954134

>>38953789
They should cost 55 pts minimum for what the have, not counting decurion.

2 wounds at 5 T with a 3++/5+++ and a 12" jump move?

You can't honestly think that isn't crazy tier at 40ppm

>> No.38954292

>>38954134
but they don't have reanimation base. You take the formation for that. I think that it only seems crazy when you compare it to terminators who are vastly overcosted.

>> No.38954301

>>38954134

Compare to Terminator. They even nerfed TH/SS by 5 points up to 45.

>> No.38954333

>>38954292

Terminators aren't vastly overcosted. Everything just had massive price reductions and power creep. Terminators literally haven't changed in over a decade.

>> No.38954342

>>38954301
Nothing should be compared to terminator ever. They are shit even compared to Tactical Marines.

>> No.38954367

>>38954333
but if everything got better and terminators stayed the same then they are overcosted.

>> No.38954435

>>38953750
I thought it made sense mostly because they die too easily to instant death. Plus, they shouldn't have a similar S and T to genestealers.

>> No.38954440

>>38954367

That's wrong, because most units right now are undercosted. Your argument would mean that the majority of shit we deal with is "costed right" which is wrong. Hence all the crappy overpriced flyers and Vendetta's price increase and even the Terminator price increase, and Wraith price increase.

>> No.38954518

>>38954435
What are you babbling about? The Anon you quoted wasn't saying increasing their S/T was bad, he was saying the attitude of "any buff should come with a nerf" is retarded. And it is.
>>38954440
You're right. Instead of bringing individual units into line with the new norm, they should just languor in uselessness because there will never be the grand re-balancing that you envision. It's easier to fix a couple of units in a codex when it's redone than it is to fix a dozen units across several codexes in a reasonable time frame.

>> No.38954546

>>38954518
>You're right. Instead of bringing individual units into line with the new norm, they should just languor in uselessness because there will never be the grand re-balancing that you envision.

You say that like there isn't an alternative: Raise all the points of all the undercosted units that have received point decrease after point decrease after point decrease. Stop decreasing points. Stop increasing gun strengths.

This also solves the problem of people complaining the game is too expensive and uses too many models these days.

Your whining and faggotry would only contribute to the power creep if you had your way.

>> No.38954753

>>38954546
You are a fucking idiot

You "fix" to units being better than termies for their cost is just to add points until nobody will bring either those or termies

If the Necron codex is anything to go by termie equivalents should be dropped to the 25 or 30 point range

>> No.38954787

>>38954546
Games Workshop is completely inept at game design. A group of retarded Pakistani's who can barely speak broken English could bang out better rules in a few weeks. GW is incapable of the sweeping design changes that your desire would necessitate.

In a perfect world, or even a world where Games Workshop's designers weren't bafflingly bad at their job, you'd be entirely correct. Unfortunately, the only way units like Terminators or Tyranid Warriors or Nobz or Thousand Sons will be usable is if they receive cost reductions and/or buffs.

>> No.38954812

>>38954435
It make sense. It should happen. Even a S5 T5 W3 with a 3+ should be good. What I am against is the "yes, but only if we increase their points or nerf them". Fuck that.

>> No.38954813

>>38954787
This. Games workshop won't increase the points cost of models, since that means smaller games, which means less models for them to sell.

>> No.38954843

I just want GW to realize the paradigm they have created means that in 40k, volumes of cheap, high strength shots and loads of disposable bodies will ALWAYS trump small, elite forces with low volumes of firepower, then I want them to price the fucking points accordingly so that it's 60 vs 100 models, not 30 vs 200.

With the simple philosophy of acknowledgement that MEQ are fucking garbage because the concept of "eliteness" is trash in the game, they could begin to patch the abortion that is the 6th edition Chaos Space Marines Codex.

>lol have a copy/paste job of C:CSM, but everything MUST take Khorne wargear, and you can take Khorne daemons that you could already take as battle brothers anyway!

No, get the fuck out of here. The new Khorne book is stupid.

>> No.38954887

>>38930602

Bump Banshee's, Shining Spears, Fire Dragons, Reapers. Buff the flyer especially the bomber. Buff Aspect Leaders.

Nerf Wave Serpents. New Transport with assault. Minor nerf across the board.

Look I've always been a space-fairy through good times and bad but what any player wants is variety and options. To field the army they want to field.

Optionally just play with other people who like FUN before munchkin wank.

>> No.38954897

>>38930602
>>Mark of Slaanesh gives +1 I and Counter Attack (or something else, just couldn't think of anything but Counter Attack that fits) or +1 WS
STILL USELESS ON NOISE MARINES COOL

>> No.38955135

>>38954897
Noise Marines and Thousand Sons needs pretty radical redesigns in order to not be shit. Noise Marines need to either fixate on being a bunkery-shooty unit or being a mid-range counter assault unit. Thousand Sons need to become either a dedicated shooting unit with a sorcerer for support, or a sorcerer who happens to have some golems following him around.

>> No.38955181

>>38954843
A-at least your Heralds of Khorne can finally hang out with your Berserkers!
Even though it means they aren't cool enough to hang out with real daemons anymore

>> No.38955267

>>38930602
10/10

>> No.38955376

>>38954753
>You "fix" to units being better than termies for their cost is just to add points until nobody will bring either those or termies

When everything in the game is at a points value equivalent to Terminators, you can't "not take them" unless you simply don't play the game.

So no, you're the idiot. There was a time when Terminators were must-takes.

>> No.38955419

>>38955376
Yes, in Second Edition, with a completely different ruleset.

Terminators were never worth since they lost the 3+ on 2d6 armor. They were overcosted even in 3rd edition.

>> No.38955447

>>38955419

Did you not play during CML spam?

>> No.38955472

>>38955419

When they changed SS from shitty save in assault to universal 3++ they were still good and you would commonly see them being taken in most marine lists. It's just that marines weren't a top army regardless.

>> No.38955685

>>38932164
>Nobs Ld 8
Yes
>mobs of 10+ are stubborn
Yes!
>units take D3 wounds per failed Ld test
Oh yes!
>big choppas get rending
HNNGHH
>cybork body grants +1T
T7 Warboss on Bike OH GOD
>painboys reduced to 1W, taken as per meks
I-I think I'm cumming
>trukks hold 15 models, only S3 if exploding
OH FUCK
>bring back deffrolla
SO CLOSE DON'T STOP
>deepstriking rokk fortification
HNGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Oh god, I came.

>> No.38955713

>>38945450
>2-3 d3 attacks on the unit at a chosen character's strength
Suddenly strength 8 hits thanks to power klaws, or Strength 6 because of Big Choppas

>> No.38955797

>>38955713
It'd be base strength not using weapons

>> No.38956272

>>38930602
>>Noise Marines automatically come with Sonic Blaster
Not everyone use the Sonic Blaster on them.
Noise Marines are versatile, that's the fun and useful part of them.

>> No.38957696

Nah, I'm good.

>> No.38959811

What are Orks lacking that make other factions competitive?

>> No.38959889

>>38959811
Orks BS2 is the main reason they suck arse. Firm believe of that.

>> No.38960027

>>38957696
>Decurion troop formation has objective secure
>Decurion has no mandatory formations
>C'tan goes back to Escalation version

>> No.38960699

>>38930602
>Mark of Tzeentch give a 5++ save if it has none and 1+ to an invulnerable save if its 5++ or better

>> No.38960723

>>38930602
>>Make Thousand Sons into Rubric Marines, keep the Aspiring Sorceror

They are Rubric marines, do you mean give them their +1 wound back?

>> No.38961350

>>38960027
>>Decurion troop formation has objective secure
>>Decurion has no mandatory formations
What the hell are you babbling about? The Decurion needs nerfs, not absurd buffs that negate the few weaknesses that the Decurion has.

>> No.38961455

>>38955135
MOS grants +1" movement.

Done fucking fixed holy shit

>> No.38961457

>>38930602
>Grey Knights
>Halberds and halberds only give +1/2 initiative
This is all I ask

>> No.38961592

>>38961455
Is that just in the movement phase, or does that also work for running and assaults? Because if so I would actually love that change.

>> No.38961593

>>38961455
Do you actually know how to play 40k? How the hell does +1 Mov help the fact they're a unit with melee stats, guns that support standing still and shooting, and a ridiculous point cost?

>> No.38961873

>>38949902
Armywise buffs:
>Shadow in the Warp: Deny The Witch tests made against Psychic Powers that are being manifested by enemy psykers within Synapse range, or targeting friendly units within Synapse range, are performed with a +1 bonus. This bonus is cumulative to Adamantium Will special rule and modifiers gained from having Psychic Mastery levels. Powers of the Hive Mind are not subjected to Shadow in the Warp.
>Tyranid Psykers or Brotherhood of Psykers have access to powers from Powers of the Hive Mind and Biomancy disciplines.

Deathleaper buffs:
>'It's After me!': Nominate an enemy character at the beginning of the game. Deathleaper's melee attacks become AP5 against that character. At the beginning of each turn, improve the AP value against that character by 1. (AP4 at turn 2, AP3 at turn 3, etc.)

>'Why won't it just kill me?': If Deathleaper and the enemy character nominated with the 'It's After me!' rule are both alive, all units within 6'' of the nominated character, including the character itself, suffers -1 penalty to Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill.

Swarmlord:
>Has Eternal Warrior
>Blade Parry: 4++ invulnerable save.
>Reduce point cost by 25 points.

Old One Eye:
>WS5, Ld 10
>Independent Character, may only join another Carnifex brood
>Gets back up at the beginning of each turn on a 4+ a la Yarrick, except it can attempt to get back up until the end of the game. Only award victory points from Slay the Warlord if it is dead at the end of the game.

Maleceptor:
> Psychic Overload: Has two firing modes:
> Warp Charge 1: 24'' Focussed Witchfire
> Warp Charge 2: 9'' Nova
> Invuln. Save: 5++ => 4++
> Reduce point cost by 25.

Toxicrene:
>Has WS4
>Predatory Sentience: Armourbane against vehicles that lost 1 or more hull points. Ignores armour save of models that lost 1 or more wounds.


I think a blanket bonus to Deny the Witch against enemy blessings would be better than specifically targeting Force.

>> No.38962176

The CSM needs a lot of price cuts.

It's ridiculous how overpriced most of the units in that book are.

>> No.38963105

>>38962176
CSM needs to decide whether they're inexplicably shitty horde marines or marines that worship Chaos in order to be more powerful than standard marines.

>> No.38963152

>>38954843
>I just want GW to realize the paradigm they have created means...
I hear you. I wish we could trust them to understand anything about their game. It's extraordinary how much shit they get wrong on a large conceptual size and in the minutiae.

>> No.38963327

>>38932164

>looted wagon slot allows 1 allied vehicle, random movement (2D6), BS2

I know you guys want a return to the chaotic days of 3e Orks but Looted Wagons are fucking awesome right now and the only thing against them is that they're 1 to a slot.

>big shoota made assault 3/heavy 5

There's a weapon type for this, it's called Salvo.

Also can we make Zzap Guns worth taking again?

>> No.38963457

>>38949902

I had an idea for Tyranid melee biomorphs that basically worked like this:

A tyranid model with more than one melee biomorph chooses one weapon profile when making all their close combat attacks at that initiative step, and then their other melee biomorph adds a modifier to those attacks, depending on the biomorph.

For a simple example, we have scything talons. They have a melee weapon profile, but if a different melee weapon is being used by a model with scything talons, that melee weapon gains rerolls to hit on 1s.

Or Crushing Claws, have nice stuff like Armorbane and Fleshbane on their weapon profile, but if you aren't using them instead they add +2 strength to whatever you are actually using.

>> No.38964059

>everything is AP 2
>everything is BS 5
>Riptides are troops and 50 points
>Marker lights auto hit and are strength D
Struggling so much right now

>> No.38964108

>>38964059
>>everything is AP 2
>>everything is BS 5
but anon, that's pretty much how Tau are currently

>> No.38964190

>>38930815
needs DoK

>> No.38965343

>Pulse rifles gain +1S
>Fire Warriors gain +1BS
>Removing cover from Markerlights only costs 1 markerlight
>High yield missiles are AP2, Smart Missiles ap3
>Broadsides come with Interceptor and Skyfire standard

This should help make the Tau codex less shit.

>> No.38965977

>>38930602
How do great unclean ones and plague drones hold up in the new edition?

>> No.38966087

>>38963457
I just want them to bring back the rerolls for scything talons, why do they insist of making nids weak in CC

>> No.38966195

>Wyches get haywire grenades.
>Ravagers have one darklance that is heavy 3.

>> No.38966373

>>38965343
>Tau codex
>Shit

You're not sweeping the top-tables any more, but Tau are still excellent. I would kill to have the ability to give my CSM easy access to the USRs that your Buffmanders can dish out like candy.

>>38965977
The Adepticon winning list used a death-star of Plague Drones with Kairos and buffing psyker Heralds for support. So, I'd say they're pretty good.

>>
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