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38215811 No.38215811 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Decent units in bad codexes and bad units in good codexes edition.

Old one's about to fall off the board so thought I'd make another.

Blah blah 40k general thread blah. Don't think there's a list thread up, lists go better in one of those (you'll get much faster responses) but feel free to post 'em here if you're not getting anywhere in a list thread. RPGs and other 40k stuff also welcome, it's the 40k general, let's talk 40k. And 30k.

Linkies:
>Rules database
https://mega.co.nz/#F!pFgm0RKR!J06C1gVYcjzNGsF8YNLsjQ
>Novels Archive
https://mega.co.nz/#F!vAQkADhB!1RaGDBHigHrd67SvpGHlEw
>Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer: Babby's first intro to 40K
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Category:Warhammer_40,000

>> No.38215929

GW should just get rid of walker rules and make all of them monstrous creatures

>> No.38216042

>>38215929
That'd make poisoned weapons even more OP.

>> No.38216069
File: 135 KB, 873x627, tau riptide.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38216069

>>38215929
Or maybe make things that should be walkers walkers and not monstrous creatures.

>> No.38216083

What are the best weapon options for 3 vypers?
Upgrading the twin linked shuricats into shuricannons is a given, but I am unsure of the other weapon options.
Giving them all starcannons would let me dish out 6 S6 Ap2 shots, which seems pretty good on paper, but with scatter lasers, they would be shooting freaking 12 s6 ap 6 shots.
I dunno about bright lances, as giving all of them one seems kinda like an overkill. The missile launchers are pretty expensive, though they have hilariously long range, so they are an option I am considering too.

>> No.38216128
File: 96 KB, 500x404, The Warpsmith's Suprise....jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38216128

>>38215811

>Maulerfiend

I've always liked their aesthetics.

Also the idea of one of a Maulerfiend busting into a fortress, scaling vertical walls, ceilings and all other sorts of shenanigans made me think of that "spider-pig" thing from the Simpsons movie.

Would also be funny to see the enemies reaction to that.


That aside is the Maulerfiend really as bad as some people claim it is ? It seems like it would have the potential to wreck any tank or skimmer it reaches melee with.

It even seems it would do a number on things like a Gorkanaut or Morkanaut given the Magma cutters are both considered Melta strikes.

So is it really lack lustre or are there better choices for vehicle and structure demolition (like predators, Obliterators and forgefiends I am assuming) ?

>>38215929

They could, but some of them clearly aren't creatures and or are so crudely constructed or piloted they couldn't be anything but a vehicle.

The Orkanauts, Contemptors and Sentinels come to mind here.

But that raises the interesting question of the Mechanicum battle Automata.

>> No.38216140
File: 237 KB, 402x398, Big guy for you.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38216140

You have 10 seconds to name the coolest space marine chapter that I should paint my army as.

>> No.38216151

>>38216140
What do you think is cool?

>> No.38216153

>>38216069
The Riptide is not a walker. It's a suit. A worn armor.

>> No.38216158
File: 15 KB, 225x225, Laughing ork.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38216158

>>38216140
>space marines.
>cool.

>> No.38216173

>>38216140
blue mr freeze style

>> No.38216190

>>38216128
A lots of MC/Walkers are quite schizophrenic in how they work and are described.

Is it a Walker if it's mostly mechanical?
Or if it has a pilot?

>>38216153
Why aren't deff-dredds with a living ork pilot MC's?

And Why are Wraithlords made of solid wraithbone with a ghost piloting it a MC?

>> No.38216204

>>38216140
Scythes of the Emperor are pretty awesome too.

>> No.38216278

>>38215929
Certain walkers should definitely be MCs, like dreadnoughts, and pentients.
Others like sentinels and war walkers should definitely remain walkers though.

>> No.38216281

Sentence from the new Harlequin's codex;
>"A king stirs in his court of death and silence, preparing to rise once more."

This can only apply to two individuals I can think of; The Silent king and the Big E.

Imagine if we get an "End Times" expansion, and we get the Big E returning.

>> No.38216322
File: 21 KB, 158x158, BIRD (1).png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38216322

>>38216281
>king
>dead and silent court
>rise again
>harlequins

>anyone other than the Silent King
>

>> No.38216328

>>38216278
>>38216190
>>38216128

Personally I'd define the difference with:

Does it have a reactor that'll blow up?
If Yes: Walker.
If No: MC.

>> No.38216337

>>38216128
The Maulerfiend is both lacklustre, and there are better/cheaper choices. Both Dinobots are overcosted for what they bring to the table, even though a single Maulerfiend as a (costy) combined distraction Carnifex + suicide squad rushing and gutting a costy vehicle does work. Fucker is fast and ignores all difficult terrain, which helps a lot.

>> No.38216365
File: 104 KB, 494x494, ayyyy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38216365

Spray Primers: Army Painter
Regular Paints: Reaper
Brushes: ?
Glue: ?
Basing Materials: ?

Help me out, /tg/.

>> No.38216371

>>38216128
I think the maulerfiend's great, like you say the idea of them is awesome. On the table, yeah, they get glanced to death by wave serpents, but what doesn't these days? 5++ and IWND is still better than a lot of stuff.

And they're seriously fast (12" move, ignoring difficult terrain, and fleet) and do a lot of damage once they get there. Two of them charging at you from turn 1 is a serious threat to deal with.

>> No.38216454

>>38216069
It really should be a walker, anything with a squishy thing inside of it helping it move should be a walker.
This includes dread knights as well.

Not only would it destroy the powercreep of some of the most OP units in the game, but it would get GW off their ass and try to make walkers worth it again.

>> No.38216477

>>38216281
The throne room of the Emperor isn't silent,there are at least 2000 cherubs in there constantly singing hymns. It's much more likely the Silent King.

>> No.38216566

>>38214303
>. . . Great? That's exactly as much Lord as one should have in a realistic force of that scale. You want a bigger Chapter Master in an army that small, go Unbound.

Are you seriously saying that an army at 1500pts. should find ALL of its Lord/Hero purchases into 375pts., 187.5pts. of it for Lords? That's not just chapter masters, that's all your HQ stuff. With IG you'd get just about a minimum tank commander squadron.

>Well I'm glad that you admit that you don't understand how FO restrictions work.

Wait, what do you mean "no more than 5 times the core section" and all that? If you're going over to percentages, then you're not using FOC slots. Only restriction WHFB has with specials and rares is that you can't have more than 3 Specials of the same type and no more than 2 Rares of the same type. 6 and 4 for over 3,000pts. armies.

>Bad idea.

Well, it's already been done. Check your 7th edition codexes, if you don't believe me.

And WHFB already has units that are in, say, Core, but do not count towards Core percentage and, according to the rulebook, don't count towards any category. So you can't just buy Rhinos and rush them, since you need the minimum Core. Or, hell, place them in Special with the same restrictions (not counting towards the Special percentages), meaning you can only have 3 of them undedicated.

>Apothecaries are doctors, not leaders.

Apothecaries are among the chapter elite. They don't just patch dudes in combat, they're responsible for their gene-seeds and the legacy and continued existence of the chapter. That is not a duty given to any pleb. And like you said, Chief Apothecary, etc. There's no special rules for different ranks of librarian, chaplain, apothecary, nor captain. They all use the same basic stat line.

And being a "Warlord" only means they're the dude in charge, the highest ranking person on scene. Not the general of the entire war.

>Shouldn't be independent characters

They're not, they're tied to command squads.

>> No.38216583

>>38216566
>Wizards are not like members of a psyker battle squad, they are like Librarians

Depends on your army. And just because you spend your life studying magic does not make you expert in warfare and battle tactics. And I'm not even talking about the high ranking super wizards, but of the low ranking dudes. You think a goblin shaman is much of a leader to a band of black orcs?

Same with engineers. Not every engineer in WHFB (all armies included) is a master artificer worthy of leading an army. But hey, if they happen to be the highest ranking member in the band, according to the game's rules they get to be the general.

>so you're going back on your previous stance about Lords needing auxiliary heroes?

Not when you're fielding your chapter master. WHFB doesn't require you to have Archaon with all of his lieutenants or some shit like that.

>> No.38216659

>>38216281
or the laughing god...

>> No.38216685

>>38216659
Laughing isnt realy silent

>> No.38216698
File: 202 KB, 840x727, EldarVyper.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38216698

>>38216083
Anyone?

>> No.38216707

>>38216140
I think Raptors are p cool

>> No.38216720
File: 84 KB, 640x460, m2470837a_99129915013_SoulGrinderWH01_873x627.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38216720

How is this thing less of a Monstrous Creature than a Riptide?
I mean just look at it!

>> No.38216722

>>38216281
I think its about the Silent King

>> No.38216741

>>38216083
>>38216698
Depends on the rest of your army and you preferred splaystyle.

Vypers are great with their mobility, but their frail defense means they need to hit & run, pick on shit that's cant hurt them or hit so hard there'll be no retaliation.

>> No.38216746

>>38216281
I am thinking Imothek. "Cort of Death and Silence" is necron as fuck, and while he's not The King, he's still A King.

I suggest him instead of Szarek because he's been the principal necron Leader until now, even having other Eldar prophecy his own rise, while the Silent King is been more of a "behind the scenes" kind of guy.

>> No.38216773
File: 46 KB, 500x425, dkkdrill.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38216773

>>38216720
According to forgeworld, this thing is "infantry". I don't think there's any logic about what gets designated as what any more.

>> No.38216831

>>38216773
>Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank, Heavy)
-IA vol. 1, 2nd edition, pg. 209

Are you high, anon?

>> No.38216841

>>38216153
>The Riptide is not a walker. It's a suit. A worn armor.

So is a Dreadnaught, a Killa Kan, an Imperial Knight, a Contemptor. Which are all walkers. A Riptide should be a walker, not an MC. Its an inconsistency within the game, thats not even arguable. Except by retards on the internet of course.

>> No.38216879

>>38216153
I want to see the Tau who's wearing that suit. Fuck the suit, those dudes alone could probably fuck some shit up.

>> No.38216937
File: 291 KB, 960x640, cara.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38216937

Imperial Fists
Raptors
Bluud Rahvuns
Angels of Absolution

Which should I paint /tg/?

>> No.38216949

>>38216937
Black Templars

>> No.38216974

>>38216841
They probably wanted to stay coherent with the rest of the army : the suits have an creature profile, the riptide is a big suit, therefore the riptide is a monstruous creature.
Same for the wraithknigth compared to the wraithlord and wraithguards.

>> No.38217007

>>38216083
>I've never gone wrong with scatter laser, its 5 points more and Laserlock makes the SC twinlinked.

I've used these puppies for my AA aswell, the volume of shots, while not ideal, means that I will get some glances in that will wrack up.

>> No.38217035

>>38216974
Why are dreadnoughts walkers when tactical dreadnought armours are infantry? Why are Eldar titans walkers and not gargantuan creatures?

>> No.38217042

>>38216831
New Book

>> No.38217084

>>38217035
Because it make sense ?
The riptide and the wraithknights are debatable, because they would fit in both.

>> No.38217133

>>38216841
I agree, but I also think the wraith Knights and wraith lords should be too.

>> No.38217149

>>38217084
>they would fit in both

How so? How does Riptide as MC make more sense than Dread? How does Wraithknight as MC make more sense than Revenant?

>> No.38217182

>>38217133
Wraithlords, at least, have the point that they're wraith units, they're more like living creatures than machines. Knights, however, have a living pilot, not just a soul.

>> No.38217189
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38217189

>>38216128
>is the Maulerfiend really as bad as some people claim it is ?

No. It's actully great, it moves 12 aren't slowed by anything. You will get the charge turn two with any sort of right placement, it's a daemon remember that.

It will either course some serious pain OR even better, it will soak up a turns worth of shooting.

A fiend's speed means it will be so far up the field that the opponent will be forced to deal with it or face ruin. If he does, congrats to him, he just wasted a turn killing 125 points of models, meanwhile the rest of your force have moved in.

I've used mine like that more times then I can count and I've always felt I've gotten my points worth with the bare basic one, you just have to come to terms with it won't suvive the game. Once you are past that you can glimse the tactical potential of this beast.

If you want a real killer combo, try one of these, a rhino or two with Dirge casters, and daemons running alongside. My slaanesh only combined army have yet to not wreck shit turn two with so much speed, and heralds with CE or the GoT can boost it's save aswell, synegy is key.


As for the forge fiend. Mate. it's 8 S8 shots with Soulfire. It's fucking awsome and the bane of many a Knight Titan around here, not to mention flyers, just don't waste points on the extra Plasma.

>> No.38217222

>>38216042
because they're just dominating the meta right now

>> No.38217225

>>38216042
Give some of the former walkers a new special rule that makes them immune to poison weapons.

>> No.38217239

>>38217042
Which one?

>> No.38217285

>>38217007
So lazor spam it is?
It doubling as semi decent anti air is also a plus, cause really don't have anything capable of dealing with air well right now.

>> No.38217334

>>38217149
The dread is a textbook walker.
I also guess the MC are supposed to be quite more agile than walkers, because they are either living creatures or a sort of symbiosis between the pilot and the machine, while the walker is more crude and less manoeuvrable. Titans being titans, they are probably less agile as well.

I dunno, that make sense to me. A dread, a sentinel or a killakan is a metal box on legs, while a wraithlord is literally a body of wraithbone crafted for a soul in particular and a riptide is a gundam way less lumbering than the human or ork stuff.
But I understand your point of view.

>> No.38217358

>>38217285
Worked for me.

Only downside is the farseer suddenly becomes sort of redundant when everything twinlinks itselve.

>> No.38217381

>>38217334
You do realize that the pilot of a Deff Dread and Dreadnought is pretty much hardwired into the machine, right? While the Wraithknight has a living pilot inside it, just like Eldar titans.

>> No.38217395

>>38217358
Well, I still got Wraithguards who need dat guide bonus to better land their fuck you strength 10 shots.

>> No.38217408

>>38216365
For brushes, I like Winsor & Newton. W&N Cotmans for everyday workhorse kind of painting, and W&N Sceptre Golds for fine detail work (with the sable synth blend they hold a wonderful point), glue i just use loctite or whatever cheap superglue from the drugstore. The ones with the needle applicators are helpful, but I've gotten by without. Basing materials are endless, but how about craft sand or something? Aquarium rocks, chopped up sprue, smashed resin chunks, cork tile, etc etc.

>> No.38217456

>>38216140
Smurfs. Rektbutt Girlyman approves.

>> No.38217461

>>38217381
Yep, but their machine is a lumbering behemot. I mean, look at this. While eldar stuff is way closer to the movement of a living creature.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-E1RcRvny8

>> No.38217480

>>38217239
The new imperial armour. Vraks, or something similar. It's just out and we don't have scans yet, but pics of the drill have appeared. Now it's infantry because it's an addiction to a infantry squad.

>> No.38217500

harlequin pdf where

>> No.38217537

>>38217500

Have the book but lack a decent camera, any questions?

Also anyone got the "Warriors of the laughing god" paint guide?

>> No.38217572

>>38217537
no specific questions no. Just want a general browse and see whether or not its worth me getting.

>> No.38217601

>>38216937
Raptors, white helmet variant

>> No.38217740
File: 1.84 MB, 1353x707, Wut You Lookin At.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38217740

On the note of Walkers and Walking constructs (at least those not at the Super-Heavy or Gargantuan level) I believe the lore implies the difference lies with how its piloted and constructed.

Riptides, Wraithknights and Dreadknights all essentially have the pilot interfacing with the unit by either wearing it like armor or having it move as an extension of their own body.

In the case of the Wraithlord, its also animated by Eldar spirits as well as the pilot, perhaps giving it an extra degree of fluidity.

Things like Dreads, Kans, Defilers and Orkanauts are essentially cruder when compared to their Monstrous Construct counterparts.

Also not all Ork Dreads have the pilot wired in. As Imperial Armour 8 mentions some Mekboys pilot their creations and want to retain use of their legs.

Daemon engines raise an interesting point, but I believe that is again due to how it operates and construction. The way the lore describes it at times, some daemon engines are built like a walking tank. Notably the Defiler and Fiend Engines. As for the Soul Grinder I assume its meant to fit with the "Forge of Souls" motif of daemonic technology.

Walkers do have some advantages over Monstrous Creatures. Namely:

-Immune to Concussion.

-Immune to Poision.

-Cannot be caught up in a Sweeping Advance.

-Instant Death does not affect a walker.

-Force weapons are not as effective against walkers.

-Will always be fearless (Kans raising an eyebrow here).

-Will usually carry more weaponry than a MC which they can fire in one shooting phase (MCs can only fire two weapons at once).

-Cannot usually be harmed by bolters or lasguns.

-Before they were re-worked mindshackle scarabs could never affect a walker but did work on MCs I believe.

-Not sure about now, but does the Necron Exile Ray affect vehicles at all ?

>> No.38217788
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38217788

Straken is god among weak men

>> No.38217801

And while on the subject of walkers, is this video really accurate of how Ork Walkers generally move ?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=allthhFbGdQ

>> No.38217829

>>38216937
FISTS

>> No.38217919

Went away while the last thread died, continuing the chat from there about BS modifiers.

>>38214424
. . . which is irrelevant because no matter what a model with a natural BS above 0 always hits on at least a 6+? You have to follow these things.

>> No.38217969

>>38216042
Units should have the Metallic rule that makes them resistant to Poison and Fleshbane but vulnerable to Haywire and Armourbane, and indeed should have for some time now.

Poison can also come in the forms Venom and Chemical, which only effect non-Metallic and Metallic units respectively.

>> No.38217981

>>38217740
>>In the case of the Wraithlord, its also animated by Eldar spirits as well as the pilot, perhaps giving it an extra degree of fluidity.

You mean wraith knight, Wraith lord don't have a pilot.

Just face the fact that the only reason they made those thing MC is to make them overpowered so people buys the new models, instead of trying to justify why they are MC when a living pile of meat piloted by a daemon's spirit is a walker.

>> No.38217996

>>38217981
Wraithlords have been MC's since "ye earlye dayes"

>> No.38218025

>>38217969
Could also call it "Mechanical"

I'm certain Necrons used to have that.

>> No.38218038

>>38217189
>My slaanesh only combined army
I want this to work anon, but noise marines are such ass, and the demons are so squishy

>> No.38218040

The problem isnt walkers being worse than MCs, its riptides and wraithknights being bullshit strong, make them Lords of War and you fix them good.

>> No.38218046

>>38217981
No anon, they made it a walker to rustle your jimmies in particular.
His explanation make sense, that's what I was trying to say before.

>> No.38218050
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38218050

>>38217801
That video's Gargant is a 2E edition Gargant. Modern Ork Stompas and Gargants would probably seem more to shuffle like a walking dragline does. Dawn of War and Dawn of War 2 gave us an idea of how the 3E Kans and Dreads walked, though this could vary depending on whether or not they were shooting at stuff.

>> No.38218072

>>38218025
Maybe before they got a codex? Their first one had a little tidbit explaining that the enemy swaps out their toxins for chemicals and the like to explain poison.

>> No.38218105

>>38218072
>Maybe before they got a codex?
Don't think so. I remember those rules and they were really barebones with "we'll be back" being the standout. Only thing further back that I'm not intimately familiar with are the chaos androids which were basically retconned.

>> No.38218124

>>38218038
>noise marines are such ass
This is news to me, I've always been told that they're second only to plague marines when it comes to troop choices.

>> No.38218158

>>38216566
>Are you seriously saying that an army at 1500pts. should find ALL of its Lord/Hero purchases into 375pts., 187.5pts. of it for Lords?
Emphatically, yes. Why would you need more? It's a 1500pt game. In a 2500pt game, you get 625pts, 312 of which may be used for Lords. That's fucking plenty. You want four ultra-kitted out Bloodthirsters in under 2000pts, use one of the many formations we have today or play Unbound. For those of us that want an FO, this is sensible.

>With IG you'd get just about a minimum tank commander squadron.
Within 1500pts, GOOD. Save huge Command Tank squadrons for appropriately huge games.

>second paragraph
You plainly didn't read the opening brief of my suggestion. At no point did I say I was transplanting Fantasy's FO over to 40K. Go read.

>Check your 7th edition codexes, if you don't believe me
I don't own a single 7th edition codex, and I believe you. That doesn't make it sensible for game design at all.

>And WHFB already has units that are in, say, Core, but do not count towards Core percentage and, according to the rulebook, don't count towards any category
That's perfectably useable, I'd simply suggest giving this category a name, like Support.
>So you can't just buy Rhinos and rush them, since you need the minimum Core
It's made a little harder, but you can. Rhinos are dirt cheap.
>meaning you can only have 3 of them undedicated
I am not comfortable with the idea of limiting how much of a specific unit you can have in your army. Bikes can be the backbone of a force, or a warband can be entirely Khorne Berserkers. Limiting 3+ units to special formations only hurts variety.

>Apothecaries are among the chapter elite
No they are not. Apothecaries are vital to the continuation of the chapter because of their medical prowess; skill on the battlefield, leadership ability, strategy and command have absolutely nothing to do with it. A standard squad sergeant or 1st company veteran is more elite than an apothecary, and they (cont)

>> No.38218166

>>38218038
I quite like their weaponry.
Game needs much more Salvo.

>> No.38218200

>>38215811
So I dont know iron hands at all. >.>

Would these units units be allright for a list? My LGS likes forgeworld.

Possible iron hands list.

captain smashfucker
1x min Termie Squad w/ Land Raider Helios or Achiles
3x 5 man tac squad w/ LC
3x Razorbacks, twin LC
2x lone Land Speeders w/ your choice of guns
1x storm raven
1x Relic Sicaran
1x Relic Predator w/ Heavy Conversion
1x Fire Raptor

I don't know what in doing. Should I put drop pods in? Or take advantage of contemptors? Are these good units?

>> No.38218207

>>38218124
FNP makes them very resilient but they're pretty highly costed, and paying for some initiative they almost never use. Using them in the "classic" manner (sonic blasters) is really expensive and they don't quite have the range to be a sit and shoot (SALVO) unit.

they do okay as a wad of meat protecting two blastmasters.

>> No.38218216

>>38216140
Blood Jaguars, praise the Sun Emperor!

>> No.38218219

>>38217996
He said wraithlords have pilots, they don't.


>>38218046
you mean they made the new Walker-like things MC not because it will make them broken?

Dread is suppose to move like their bodies as well, and i dno't see how comtemper is any cruder than a dreadknight.

>> No.38218226

>>38218166
>Game needs much more Salvo
very true. 2 foot salvo though kind of castrates it

>> No.38218235

>>38216937
Fist Fist FIST

>> No.38218238

>>38218158
The number limit are one rare and unusual units, and it only applies to special/rare choices keeping them special and rare.

>> No.38218241

>>38217981

>You mean wraith knight, Wraith lord don't have a pilot.

My mistake I get the Wraith constructs mixed up at times.

>Just face the fact that the only reason they made those thing MC is to make them overpowered so people buys the new models, instead of trying to justify why they are MC when a living pile of meat piloted by a daemon's spirit is a walker.

Well that was probably a factor, but I was going for a lore explanation.

>>38217996

When they were still called "Eldar Dreadnoughts" what were they classified as exactly ? I did not think about that till now.

>>38218050

Oddly enough, I think the Gargants in the new Armageddon game resemble the old 2nd Edition Gargants.

>> No.38218289

>>38216566
are not HQ choices yet.
>That is not a duty given to any pleb
Leadership is not a job given to anyone just because they're smart or skilled either. You have to be specifically smart and skilled at leadership.
>And like you said, Chief Apothecary, etc. There's no special rules for different ranks of librarian, chaplain, apothecary, nor captain. They all use the same basic stat line
This is a problem with the game design of codecies, something with Forgeworld as per usual demolishes GW central at. Chief Apothecaries definitely deserve their own entry, just as much as Masters of the Forge. Bumping Apothecaries to HQ solves nothing.

>They're not, they're tied to command squads
. . . so you're telling me you have to buy an Apothecary as part of a Command Squad? In other words, you buy the Command Squad and designate one of the characters in the unit as your Warlord? Because that's makes a big difference in this debate.

Does this also mean you still cannot attach Apothecaries to normal units?

>Depends on your army
It really doesn't, trained Wizards (the only sort that exist on the battlefield in Empire armies) are all experienced and respected figures in both magic and it's application in warfare, directly or strategically. Just like Librarians.

>You think a goblin shaman is much of a leader to a band of black orcs?
That's, again, a problem with GW's rule design and not the FO.

>Same with engineers
Same as above. Empire war engineers are all to a man war engineers; not just engineers, engineers designed to implement the use of effective tech on the battlefield. They are all Masters of the Forge, not Techmarines who simply use tech themselves and do repairs.

>WHFB doesn't require you to have Archaon with all of his lieutenants or some shit like that
Pretty ridiculous really, a guy like Archaon not having a lieutenant, bodyguard, herald, standard bearer, advisor or champion around him at all times.

>> No.38218313

>>38218241
>When they were still called "Eldar Dreadnoughts" what were they classified as exactly ? I did not think about that till now.
In early 3e (pre-codex) they were "eldar dreadnoughts" and still had toughness values. and used lascannons.
I can't remember 2e.

>> No.38218316

>>38218289
That's Archaon's thing he needs no crutches, closest thing is his horsemen.

>> No.38218370

>>38218219

>Dread is suppose to move like their bodies as well, and i dno't see how comtemper is any cruder than a dreadknight.

Well a Dreadnought may not utilize the same technology a dreadknight does to function.

In fact I think its mentioned at one point the Grey Knights have access to a level of technology that is superior to what other branches of the Imperium's military field. This is likely do to the nature of the threats the Grey Knights must face.

Also the Dreadknight was apparently created with the purpose of combating towering Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. A normal dreadnought might struggle to accomplish this task.

>> No.38218385

>>38216328
I like this distinction.

If GW actually went by that, the Riptide would indeed be a Walker as well.

>> No.38218390
File: 57 KB, 640x480, raptor.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38218390

Are there any tutorials/guides to painting Raptors?

>> No.38218414

>>38218385
Mmhmm.

Tricky parts would be Daemon Engines, though IMO they almost deserve their own category.

>> No.38218419

>>38218238
That's entirely redundant with the points limitation. If all of the Rare allotment of a 3000pt army is to be spent on Callidus assassins, why shouldn't it be? Why is 6 Callidus more plausible than 3 Callidus and a Knight Paladin?

>> No.38218437

>>38218414
>Tricky parts would be Daemon Engines, though IMO they almost deserve their own category.
Current rules seem to treat them well enough.

>> No.38218445

>>38218316
Archaon is an exception then. There's no way a Chaos Lord would not have at least one Lieutenant Champion and/or Sorceror.

(I should note that I'd bump Chaos Lords to the rank of Chapter Masters and use the name Chaos Exalted Champions to fill the Captain-tier rank in Chaos Marine armies.)

>> No.38218459

>>38218419
You mean less plausible right?

>> No.38218462

>>38218419
Sorry, less plausible. My point is that they are equally plausible.

>> No.38218493

>>38218414
Also agreed.

>> No.38218593

>>38216328

I'd make it a bit more complicated:

1) Can it blow up?
2) If you cut one of it's limbs off, will it bleed out?

No-Yes, definitely Monstrous Creature. Yes-No, definitely Walker. Yes-Yes, should perhaps have it's own category like Daemon Engine or Bio-Enginer. No-No, perhaps it should go under a new Animation or Construction category? One that includes Canopteks, Wraithtech and Thousand Sons at the very least.

>> No.38218617

>>38218200
Pretty sure that when you run more than one Relic unit, you are required to take a Reclusiam Command Squad.

CSM have to take a Warpsmith if they field more than one Relic.

>> No.38218642

>>38218593
>Thousand Sons
anything that makes these turds useable is good in my book

>> No.38218695
File: 341 KB, 965x1025, rape Slaanesh.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38218695

>>38218038
>I want this to work anon

It works for me. Just try to get all the "you can't beat this because meta" BS you read online out of your head. most people aren't turd tier wankers who just wanna beat off on winning.

>but noise marines are such ass, and the demons are so squishy

I use a small 5man squad atleast of noise maries with the flamer. They don't do much on their own but I like theme, and they bring a Dirge caster on their rhino, which helps the demons more then you can possibly imagen.

The daemons are cheap as hell. Throw in a CSM daemon prince with spell familiar and you can replenish them like no other if you wanna go that round, otherwise, it's still a fucking great unit (in this case daemonettes) They will impact at max a turn after the fiend, seekers or fiends. All those Meta gunline falls apart pretty fast when you just don't buy into their bs. Hell, a assault takes so many people off guard because the bastards read internet meta.

Just ignore it and play what you want. you have so many models with chaos to pick from. You can make this work, MSU is stupidly fun and freaks people out when they don't have enough dakka to deal with it all in one turn before they are in melee.

>> No.38218699

>>38217461
Don't make me pull out the one where the dreadnought beats the shit out of Howling banshees.

>> No.38218727

>>38218695
ever have any luck with chariots, out of curiosity?

>> No.38218734

>>38218390
All the ones I like seem to use a Tamiya Olive drab as main colour.

>> No.38218759

>>38217740
So Riptides and shit are MC's because of their pilot interfaces with the suit directly, but Dreads are walkers even though their pilots interface with the suit directly. Even more so than, say, Dreadknight. Hell, even the Centurion lore says they do not interface with the suits directly, yet they get to be Infantry and not walkers (even though they're almost as big as dreads).

>> No.38218763

>>38218040
Walkers are worse than MC's though. Makes you wonder if they really do abuse balance to drive sales. The Riptide needs a 50+ point increase in its current state.

>> No.38218765
File: 129 KB, 677x850, m3150137a_1xl.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38218765

>>38217981

If Riptide was a walker, what should its stats be?

>> No.38218772

>>38218617
In 30k it doesn't matter. In 40k you need a Master of the Forge if you play regular marines, Interrogator-Chaplain for DA, Reclusiarch for BA, Rune Priest for SW or a Warpsmith for CSM if you want to take more than one relic.

>> No.38218804

>>38218593

I think some of this can also be attributed to GW not finding the distinction relevant enough to create a new category for such constructs.

>> No.38218813

>>38218765
F13 S12 B10 4HP
A rule that make it move like a jetpack.

The rest identical.

>> No.38218818

>>38218763
Riptide needs some adjustment.

Only MC with a 2+ save
Free invulnerable save
AND guaranteed access to FNP.

>> No.38218862

>>38218818
* And Good movement

Dreadknight has 2+/5++

>> No.38218893

>>38218818
The Tyrannofex has a 2+ as well. And I think Daemons can get a 2+ through gifts.

>> No.38218907

>>38218727
Never used them, they came out after I had bought most of my army and frankly they didn't look intresting enough to drop some of my other stuff. As for the rules well.. I can see them work, but they are so fucking big while being so very easy to kill they won't do a thing. A herald however is a monster, through and through. Seekers are the single best glass hammer I've ever had. With a book or a CE on, they are monsters. Fast as death and hits and kills anything in sight. and at 12 points a pop, a fucking must.
Also on seekers... Muh Banner! -D3 WS with no (to a minimum of 1) on it. Someone failed a fear test? Ohhh boy I've got bad news for you.

>> No.38218931

>>38218759

Well Dreads are implied to have a cruder interface (hand-wiring the occupant into the machine) than any of their monstrous creature-construct counterparts.

The occupant to machine interface may not be as smooth as that of a Riptide or Wraithknight.

Centurion Warsuits I believe are said to be like Terminator Armour in that they are worn.

>> No.38218938

>>38218893
a 2+ with the right gifts and if you are stupidly lucky, 2+ reroll.

>> No.38219049

>>38218893
>>38218938
They have 2+/5++, guaranteed acess to FNP AND jump troop movement too?

Wow.

>> No.38219122
File: 52 KB, 532x520, 1424298470898.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38219122

>>38219049

How come races like the Tau and Elfdar get all the toughest things in the game when they are races that are suppose to rely on shit like speed and stealth...

>> No.38219273
File: 2.55 MB, 3372x1310, bundles.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38219273

So, which of these bundles gives the most competitive out of the box force?

>> No.38219280

>>38219122
Eldars MC has a 3+ save, has to pay out the ass AND take a shitty weapon to get a inv save, is not a jump troop and cannot get FNP.

>> No.38219307
File: 321 KB, 1200x666, Full Reverse !!!.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38219307

>>38218763

One of the main problems with regular walkers is, rules wise, they are just a vehicle that can fight in melee.

They are essentially but there are things they are capable of that a regular vehicle is not.

Also I am wondering what the lore explanation is for why walkers usually don't get an invulnerable save.

I can imagine they would be harder to destroy than a tank would be.

There are also things they would perhaps shrug off or evade far better than a tank or skimmer as well.

>> No.38219310

What is the best place to get the model files for Warhammer figurines? I built and 3D printer and wanted to give W40K a go.

>> No.38219316

>>38219280
the wraith knight is a jump MC.

>> No.38219319

>>38219280
Poor eldar, how will their now shitty army ever recover from wraithlords not being death stars.

>> No.38219325

>>38219273
I'll rank them:
1: Top middle
2: TopLeft/Bottom middle
3: Bottom Left
4: Top right

>> No.38219385

So I just got a box of tomb blades, what would be the best way to kit them out with the new dex?

>> No.38219392

>>38219319
Never said anything of the sort, just said that there's a big difference between a Wraithknight and a Riptide.

I don't use any wraith units myself, eldar should be a mobile t3 army.

>>38219316
Yeah, I keep mixing Lords and Knights up, for some reason I think Lords should be superior to knights which in turn is superior to guards....

>> No.38219410
File: 71 KB, 600x620, assf.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38219410

>>38219325
So all the units in the Adeptus Astartes Strike Force aren't shit and are good?

>> No.38219439
File: 177 KB, 689x814, chaosmagos.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38219439

>>38217189
got a finished pic of that.

>> No.38219449

>>38219410
Dread is iffy, but all the good boxes seem to be forced to bring one.

>> No.38219502

>>38219449
Well, I just found one on Ebay for 180$ compared to 230 on GW website. Might have to take the plunge, I'm sure I can get the Dread to work.

>> No.38219521

>>38219122

Keep in mind the Riptide and Wraithknight are the Tau and Eldar knight equivalents.

They are outclassed by other races Knight counterparts. Namely:

Imperium: Imperial Knight

Orks: Stompa

Chaos: Lord of Skulls (at least till they are given access to Knight variants).

>> No.38219552

>>38219502
Oh sure, dreads are not awful.
Just tricky to use right.

>> No.38219581

>>38219273
Definitely the one with the flyer.

>> No.38219623

>>38219502
Just make sure to leave the Rhino/Razorbacks' stop hatch unglued so you can switch between the two options.

>> No.38219634

>>38219439
Dayum you've made progress mate.

Still planning on riping it off shamelessly given the chance!

>> No.38219641

>>38218158
>In a 2500pt game

I'm sorry we can't all play your big games, man. 1500pts. is pretty average sized game. Don't see why you should penalize people for not wanting huge games just so they can field some HQ units. No all of them are über destroyers. Fucking techpriests and shit are HQ.

If you think percentages will make people stop exploiting it for gain, you're sadly mistaken, and for every powerful unit you limit, you also kick sand in the eyes of people who didn't use those units.

>Within 1500pts, GOOD.

Yeah, God forbid an armoured regiment had some tanks in it. Maybe you should take it up with GW that they're forcing you to take minimum of 2 Russes in a HQ tank squardon.

>You plainly didn't read the opening brief of my suggestion.

I don't know what was your first post. This >>38213625 is where I jumped in on the whole thing.

>That doesn't make it sensible for game design at all.

Do explain. Units that get dedicated transports still get them, and units that don't get certain dedicated transports can now buy them, but at the cost of them taking up a slot.

>I am not comfortable with the idea of limiting how much of a specific unit you can have in your army.

Yet you are bent on limiting the HQ choices... I'm getting really mixed messages here.

>No they are not.

Yeah, they are, learn to fluff:
>"Only champions and heroes are ever initiated into the ways of the Apthecarion - such is the importance of their duties."
-WD102, pg. 71

>"He must also be a warrior of untold might and unquenchable bravery, for his place is in the raging heart of battle."
>"most Captains fill their retinues with Veterans in whom the bloody skills of combat are matched by tactical and strategic brilliance."
-Codex: Space Marines, 6e, pg. 88

>> No.38219642

>>38219410
Not necessarily, but it does have a flyer, a drop pod, and a cheap transport so

>> No.38219701

>>38219634
Gonna put it on ebay so might save you the effort!

>> No.38219718
File: 44 KB, 604x454, Huskies.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38219718

>>38219642
So lets say I do buy this, what would I want to add right away? I'm aiming for a 1750-2000 pt army.

>>38219623
Will do

>>38219642
What do you mean by "not necessarily"?

>> No.38219788

>>38219642
Like, Dread's aren't generally considered good, and tactical squads are okay but not amazing. But it is still the most competitive of the bundles.

>> No.38219866

>>38218289
>You have to be specifically smart and skilled at leadership.

Or just the highest ranking member. Or assigned by your commanding officer to be in charge.

You clearly haven't been in the military if you think only through intelligence, skills and experience lands you command. We've had privates given command of squads or units, because somebody has to take charge and if there's no NCO available, an officer can just point to a dude and go "you lead".

>Because that's makes a big difference in this debate.

Well, if you actually read any of the codexes or the rulebook, there wouldn't be any problems. Any Character can be designated as your Warlord (unless otherwise stated, as with IG commissars), and an Apothecary is a Character.

>Does this also mean you still cannot attach Apothecaries to normal units?

Yes, he's only a command squad upgrade. Red Scorpions have a chapter trait that lets the sergeant become an apothecary, though, since they have extra amounts of them and attach them to regular units.

>Empire armies
>Empire war engineers

Other armies have wizards and engineers besides Empire, man.

>That's, again, a problem with GW's rule design and not the FO.

So, how would you make it so that only the most experienced dude gets to be the leader?

>Pretty ridiculous really, a guy like Archaon not having a lieutenant, bodyguard, herald, standard bearer, advisor or champion around him at all times.

Well, enjoy playing your 10,000pts. games, because it's the only way you're going to fit all of them on the field at any one time.

>> No.38219888

>>38219410
Ha. It's just the least shit

>> No.38219895

>>38219718
Another drop pod, another sternguard squad.

>> No.38219907

>>38218445
So now each army should model a perfectly accurate command staff, support and logistics, etc.?

>> No.38219941
File: 248 KB, 474x480, Nonon35.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38219941

>>38219449
>>38219888
>Iconic SM units like Dreads and Tactical Marines range from shit to okay
What is the point of playing SM then? What units does a good list even use?

>> No.38219955

>>38219718
Depends on what you want to do with the army.

A second squad of marines would be good just to sit on stuff.

Also some Anti-tank, and probably some bikes.

And as >>38219895 said an second pod with a payload that can make use of it's ability would be good.

>> No.38219976

>>38217480
>The new imperial armour. Vraks, or something similar.

Vraks is old as fuck. IA vol. 1, 2nd edition is the one with the latest rules for the Hades. And in Vraks it's also Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank) with Lumbering (6" movement).

I have no idea where you are getting that it's Infantry.

>> No.38220019

>>38219976
>I have no idea where you are getting that it's Infantry.

Jesus fucking christ anon, I cant believe you're this thick, VRAKS JUST GOT AN UPDATE!

>> No.38220027
File: 1.30 MB, 1920x1080, What're you looking at fag.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38220027

What do you guys think is the most elite/well trained loyalist chapter?
>inb4 ultramarines

>> No.38220028

>>38218931
>Well Dreads are implied to have a cruder interface (hand-wiring the occupant into the machine)

Where? And how are Riptide pilots wired into the suit then?

>> No.38220049

>>38219941
Short answer: A good list used what a Good commander knows how to make good use of.

Long depressing answer: Whatever costs too little points for it's power, go on GW*s site and look for stuff that costs 75$ for a 1-3 man box, that's generally good...

Popular lists are Bikers with Thunderfire Cannon and Grav Centuions.

>> No.38220051

>>38220027
Grey Knights if they count
If dont thats propably Raven Guard

>> No.38220067

>>38219941
Tacs are fine. To answer your question, it depends on your interest. If you just like fun, play whatever and find others who do. If you like being TAC or competitive, good lists include librarians and centurions

>> No.38220079

>>38220027
Raptors.

Also IIRC Flesh tearers, something about them being so short handed all marines are trained to full qualification in every role.

>> No.38220102

>>38220019
Well then you must have scans of it.

>> No.38220123

>>38220102
Vraksanon dumped some camshots, he has been AWOL since then.

>> No.38220127
File: 633 KB, 1728x3072, OG14HKl.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38220127

>>38220102
I dont have the book or the scans of the drill but have this instead.

>> No.38220149

>>38220049
>>38220067
I was planning on getting a Librarian just because I like them and the chapter I'm painting is known for muh psykers. But there's no fucking way I'm buying or painting Centurions.

>Space marine in a space marine
Fuck that

Speaking about space marines in space marines, how are Grey Knights? I like them besides that gay walker thing.

>> No.38220151
File: 452 KB, 1728x3072, AO3L8eW.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38220151

>>38220102
Chem-munitions for everyone!

>> No.38220159
File: 781 KB, 1536x2048, 1424451713793.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38220159

>>38219976
Please, stop being retarded. Look at what its in the first row, third coloumn.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff

>>38220102
No, but there are pics.

>> No.38220181

>>38220149
They are... good at their job.

That being killing daemons and multi-wound models.

Also abusing rules a little.

>> No.38220196

>>38219521
Thats a terrible assessment. Lord of Skulls is a super heavy, and costs 1000 points. And as far as super-heavies go, its laughingly overcosted.

>> No.38220204

>>38220151
>Salt the earth

Boy, as much as I love the idea, those templates are probably going to be used again by renegade, and I don't think everyone got 12+ templates of all sizes.

>> No.38220215

>>38220159
Think I just found a use for those Assault Centurions...

>> No.38220221

>>38220151
New book really has me lusting for a Lost and the Damned list.

Especially that respawning formation.

But I've already got 2 armies as well as two others ahead of LaTD in the queue.

>> No.38220223

>>38219280
Just shut the fuck up right now.

>> No.38220247

>>38220223
Why?

>> No.38220265

>>38219280
T8 MOTHERFUCKER, WITH 3+SV THAT SHIT COULD BE ARMED WITH MULTILASERS AND STILL BE A PAIN!

>> No.38220266
File: 779 KB, 2048x1536, 1424451786627.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38220266

>>38220159
>>38220204
You can always print the image of a gas cloud and cut it in a template dimension.

>>38220215
How? If you means converting go for it, but the Drill can be taken only by Krieg

>> No.38220305

>>38220221
>New book really has me lusting for a Lost and the Damned list.
Do they still exist in the rules?

>> No.38220318
File: 646 KB, 1728x3072, 9Zg1thn.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38220318

>>38220221
Ever wanted to re-enact D-Day in 40k? WELL HERE'S YOUR CHANCE!

>> No.38220323

>>38220247
because a T8 thing with half a million wounds doesn't need FNP.

>> No.38220329

>>38220305
Well ok Imperial Renegades then.
Guardsmen with cultist champions, CSM/Deamon BB's, you know what i mean.

>> No.38220349

>>38220305
yes, they got an update in the last IA.

>> No.38220359
File: 9 KB, 885x150, wraithknightkillsheet.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38220359

>>38220323

>> No.38220387
File: 428 KB, 170x240, Nui angry.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38220387

>There are like 5 GW stores left in the US and Canada that aren't 1 man stores
How much longer till GW stores just stop existing?

>Comfy GW store near me with a decent amount of large tables (6-8) for games and painting relocated to a small lot and is now a 1 man store with two tables.

What the fuck?

>> No.38220390

>>38220265
Oh, come on, the 3+ is irrevelant, anything that can wound it will ignore it. Unless you are using poison then you shit enough shots for it.

We can heal it, thought.

>> No.38220399

>>38220318
I was thinking of those renegades that returned to battle from the table edge on a 2+ and improved cover saves by 2 or something.

>> No.38220422

>>38219521
Compare what you are getting for the points though. The Riptide and Wraithknight are far superior units, point for point.

>> No.38220425

>>38220387
>How much longer till GW stores just stop existing?

Too long.

If anything they should be warehouses with a community thing in the front-rooms.

>> No.38220452
File: 600 KB, 1728x3072, lG7eTnL.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38220452

>>38220399
Now you can take cover amongst the remains of your comrades! PRAISE NURGLE!

>> No.38220459

>>38218642
Exactly.

>>38218804
Trouble is that with all these fusion critters they've been making, stuff's getting out of hand. Not that I have any rule ideas in this realm. I've been suggesting Possessed marine stats and new FO charts willy nilly lately, I ain't thinking about that.

>> No.38220468

>>38220266
>How? If you means converting go for it

Will. Just have to figure out how to make the legs less Marine. Then just add a roll bars around the head, lights, maybe some melta bits on the torso mounts, etc.

>the Drill can be taken only by Krieg

The Drill has been available to regular Guard, so don't see why these rules wouldn't be upgrade to them as well.

>> No.38220484

>>38220452
YES!

Now give that shit to Orks Green Tide, and I mean NOW.

>> No.38220497

>>38220028

>Where?

I meant that to be "Hard-Wiring".

Also its mentioned in the profile for Dreadnoughts that the injured Battle-brother is interred (wired) into a Dreadnought Sarcophagus which is then inserted into a Dreadnought chassis.

In the case of Deff-Dreads (and the larger Mega-Dreads) its actually the Ork being wired into it. Infact some of the older artwork showed Orks and Gretchin popping the hatch atop their walkers open at which point wires and cybernetics could be seen connected to their arms when they emerged.

>And how are Riptide pilots wired into the suit then?

They aren't. In-fact the interface between pilot and machine is much more advance.

Assuming the Riptide is built on the same basic principles and technology as a Crisis Suit (and assuming whats written here is accurate of Crisis Suit interfacing) it might function like this:

>An XV8 Crisis Battlesuit pilot sits in a foetal position within the central torso section of the Battlesuit, and pilots the Battlesuit through a neural link that connects the Fire Warrior’s brain to the Battlesuit's control interface through a monofilament needle inserted through the back of the head. This disrupts the nervous system of the pilot and temporarily disconnects the body from the pilot's brain from the neck down. The Battlesuit control system then interprets movement signals from the pilot’s brain as the movements of the Battlesuit’s body, effectively making the Battlesuit the pilot’s new ‘body’.

>> No.38220539

Hey I havent played 40k since roughly the end of 4th edition, I collected Eldar. I was wondering what I would need to get to make my army competitive if I was to start playing again. Here is What I already have:
35 Guardians
12 Gun Crew
3 Guardian gun platforms (missile launcher, starcannon, brightlance)
3 Support Weapons (all D-cannon)
7 Rangers
9 Storm Guardians
6 Dark Reapers + 1 Exarch (w missile) + Maugen Ra
6 Howling Banshees + 1 Exarch + Jain Zar
7 Dire Avengers + 1 Exarch + Asurman
4 Swooping Hawks + Baharroth (double as exarch)
11 Fire Dragons + 2 Exarchs + Feugen
11 Striking Scorpions + 2 Exarchs + Karandas
9 Warp Spiders + 1 Exarch
6 Wraithguard
2 Autarchs
4 Farseers
6 Warlocks
3 Wraithlords (starcannon, scatterlaser, missile launcher)
2 Avatars
1 War walker (no weapons on yet)
2 Shining spears + 1 Exarch
1 Waveserpent w Brightlance
5 Falcons (2 Scatterlaser, 2 Starcannon, 1 missile launcher)
3 Vypers (all starcannons)
1 Fireprism
1 Scorpion Super Heavy
1 Nightwing fighter

What would I have to get (besides probably a bunch more wave serpents)?

>> No.38220557

Would two strike forces be useful for starting a black templar army?

>> No.38220576

>>38220497
So, Marines and Orks wired into their machines and using their minds to move it and sense the world around them, are inferior to Tau, who use a spike to the back of the head to move the suit and sense the world around them.

Well, at least Marines and Orks don't go crazy, unlike Tau pilots, so that's a plus.

>> No.38220593

>>38220247
Because youre asking for 24k gold trim on your diamond encrusted Ferrari, dick.

You are either a full blown retard, or trolling.

>> No.38220594

>>38218772
Can clan Raukaan take those special HQ?

>> No.38220612

>>38220576
But they do go insane, total sensory deprivation will drive anyone mad and thats why marine dreadnoughts are always asleep unless needed.

>> No.38220649

GK Player, I'm trying to round out an 1850 list, but I'm only at 1614. Currently its a Libby with ML3 and Extra Daemonology book, Venerable Dread with Lascannon and Fist/Flamer, 1 Purifier squad of 10 guys in a Rhino, 2 Terminator squads, and 2 Dreadknights. What can I add to finish this out? I've got Stern, Coteaz, and a purgation squad sitting around, not included in the army.

>> No.38220678

>>38220576
Orks and Marines are hooked in but know it's a shell.

Tau pardon the parallel, have an Evagelion thing going on where they can.. drown in the machine, it becomes their body, and they can feel their servos beign shorn off by a lascannon, they feel their plasma cores overheating.

>> No.38220734

>>38220576
>Well, at least Marines and Orks don't go crazy, unlike Tau pilots, so that's a plus.

Shadowsun, O'Kais, and Farsight have been using their suits for decades. In the case of Farsight, centuries.

They aren't crazy.

>> No.38220745

>>38220593
I'm not asking for shit.

I'm being factual.

Try to control your bias and re-read the post word by word instead of skimming and imagining what it says, if that's within your capability.

>> No.38220770

>>38220497
>An XV8 Crisis Battlesuit pilot sits in a foetal position within the central torso section of the Battlesuit, and pilots the Battlesuit through a neural link that connects the Fire Warrior’s brain to the Battlesuit's control interface through a monofilament needle inserted through the back of the head. This disrupts the nervous system of the pilot and temporarily disconnects the body from the pilot's brain from the neck down. The Battlesuit control system then interprets movement signals from the pilot’s brain as the movements of the Battlesuit’s body, effectively making the Battlesuit the pilot’s new ‘body’.

That's literally the way the original Imperial dreadnoughts functioned, before they became boxdreads. Pilots became addicted to the feeling of power granted by becoming a dreadnought and had a tough time disconnecting.

Maneuverability shouldn't be what determines whether a machine is an MC or a Walker - the chief advantages in game are not added maneuverability but rather the ability to take more punishment than a walker - multiple wounds and great armor saves. This advantage has nothing to do with whether or not the machine moves like a man or as a clumsy waddling garbage can.

Giving more antitank weapons the Instant Death rule (like the Beast HUnter shells from IA1 v 2) would solve the Riptide/Wraithknight problem.

>> No.38220832

>>38220196

>Thats a terrible assessment. Lord of Skulls is a super heavy, and costs 1000 points. And as far as super-heavies go, its laughingly overcosted.

Why is it listed as 888 pts in the Escalation book then ?

>>38220422

>Compare what you are getting for the points though. The Riptide and Wraithknight are far superior units, point for point.

Except they are exceeded in fire-power, durability and threat level by their Super-Heavy counterparts.

Also outside of D-Weapons, their Super-Heavy counterparts cannot be destroyed in one hit

The Riptide and Wraithknight might also fare very poorly in close combat with a Knight, Stompa or Lord of Skulls should they be caught in assault.

>> No.38220836

>>38220745
Eat a dick faggot. You were lamenting the absence of FnP on a Wraithknight.

>> No.38220849

>>38220770
Personally I'd give walker some.. Armoured shell rule, so they can' explode untill they've lost X number of HP.

>> No.38220886

>>38220836
Not lamenting it, pointing out a difference between it and the cheaper Riptide.

There is no intonation or inherently emotional context in text, what you hear is what you put into it.

>> No.38220895

>>38219641
>1500pts. is pretty average sized game.
Average sized game, average sort of force. I'd argue 2000pts is the average these days and 1500 is on the small side in any case.

>penalize
In our modern age of uber formations and fucking unbound, I think you'll find that 12.5% total army cost Lords is no real burden at all, and quite flexible even.

>Fucking techpriests and shit are HQ
Techpriests would either be a Hero or Support choice, and they're dirt cheap so it's no real bother.

>God forbid an armoured regiment had some tanks in it
A two-strong command tank squadron with 6-9 other tanks in two to 6 squadrons is apparently "no tanks" by your reasoning.

>I don't know what was your first pos
Nevermind that the first post is fucking effortless to find from there, meaning you have excuse other than bone-idleness for not finding it; Given the extremely specific nature of the discussion, what the hell where you thinking? You can't just walk into a debate room and start objecting to people's points when you don't even know what they are, courtesy of not reading the agenda or being there at the beginning to here what each party is saying. Objecting to a contextless detail of a large point is, well, pointess.

>Do explain
I already have, outside of a paltry minimum core requirement you can flood the field with dirt-cheap transports. Gamebreaking AND unfluffy.

>Yet you are bent on limiting the HQ choices
If you can't tell the different between a percentage-points cap and a hard "no army can have more than three bikes" limit, I don't know where to begin explaining.

>>"Only champions and heroes are ever initiated into the ways of the Apthecarion - such is the importance of their duties."
Is that a really ancient White Dwarf quote? Not certain that's at all applicable to modern 40K.

>"He must also be a warrior of untold might and unquenchable bravery, for his place is in the raging heart of battle."
Even more applicable to squad sergeants, yet you don't see (cont)

>> No.38220926

>>38220770
>Giving more antitank weapons the Instant Death rule (like the Beast HUnter shells from IA1 v 2) would solve the Riptide/Wraithknight problem.
Except that's fixing the problem of powerful units with more powercreep, and has more far-reaching effects than just solving the wraithtide problem directly.

Of course I'm biased as fuck, being a tyranid player.

>> No.38220928

>>38220612
That's not what I've read. For example in IA vol. 2 (2nd ed.) they're kept in stasis to prolong their life, because more than weapons of war they are historians of the chapter with centuries of experience to share with the chapter and its commanders.

Also, from the same source, the Marines in dreadnoughts are able to fight without any loss of skill or speed; the armour is capable of responding to the user's thoughts lightning fast; through the connections they're capable of hearing and seeing as if they were still flesh; etc.

It's the long ages in stasis that make their mind grow distant, not the machine interface. On the Tau, however, according to Fire Warrior, the mind interface causes serious problems and long term pilots can have ghost pains, loss of motor skills, forget they're not in armour anymore, etc.

>> No.38220954

Does Frontline Gaming ship their mats to other countries than UK in europe? their terms and conditions say "Unless otherwise stated, the services featured on this website are only available within the United Kingdom, or in relation to postings from the United Kingdom. All advertising is intended solely for the United Kingdom market." but the checkout has the option to ship to other counries.

>> No.38221011

>>38220954
I think I heard they were working on EU distribution. Shoot them an email; they're pretty friendly fellows.

>> No.38221057

>>38219641
(cont) them as HQ choices. Would you like to see squad sergeants as HQ choices?
>"most Captains fill their retinues with Veterans in whom the bloody skills of combat are matched by tactical and strategic brilliance."
A good argument for a Command squad being the collective Warlord of an army, not so much the one Apothecary in it.
Ultimately, soldiery and hard-bitten survivalism is not guarenteed inclusive of strategy and leadership.

>>38219866
>Or just the highest ranking member
Which as stated earlier is irrevelant if your rank is doctor. Doesn't matter how respected or how tough a doctor has to be, it is not a command rank. You can be the best doctor in the world and still be a corporal in a real army.

>You clearly haven't been in the military if you think only through intelligence, skills and experience lands you command
Have you ever been in a military? And yes, there is such a thing as corruption, but I digress.
>We've had privates given command of squads or units, because somebody has to take charge and if there's no NCO available, an officer can just point to a dude and go "you lead"
This argument can be used to justify ANY model acting as an army's Warlord. Why not just let a Tactical squad be an HQ choice and nominate it's sergeant as Warlord? Or it's missile trooper? Why not just let armies take a single Tactical marine for 15pts, an independent character but otherwise identical to a squaddy? After a certain juncture exceptional circumstances such as those you describe break the fuck down, especially in a wargame where the commander has to also be a badass fighter.

>Well, if you actually read any of the codexes or the rulebook, there wouldn't be any problems. Any Character can be designated as your Warlord (unless otherwise stated, as with IG commissars), and an Apothecary is a Character
No part of this sentence comes as a suprise to me, so I have no idea where your "read the rules hurr" line comes off from. It's new to me (cont)

>> No.38221060

>>38220928
It varies.

The Blood angels have nearly all their dreads in near permanent stasis as the Black range nearly always activates, the Librarians manage to pull though well enough as long with a few furioso that are just heavily gripped by the red thirst.. that they can't satisfy now..

>> No.38221106

>>38220832
Shouldnt more expensive units and super-heavies be able to beat a Riptide or Wraithknight in cc?

Not sure what youre getting at here. If you think Knights, Stompas, and the Lord of Skulls are on the level of Riptides and Wraithknights, thats great. But point for point, only the Imperial Knight deserves to be in this conversation. Its a 6HP walker for 370 points. Think about the Riptide and Wraithknight in terms of durability, firepower, and cost. For most lists, 2 Riptides is a hell of a lot harder to deal with than 2 Imperial Knights.
But Im not going to continue to debate the strengths of arguably the best unit in the game with someone on the internet.

>> No.38221114
File: 146 KB, 640x481, Ward.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38221114

You have 10 seconds to name the most essential purchases for a 2000 pt space marine army. Assume $ is no issue.

>> No.38221125
File: 81 KB, 960x678, 10463984_10205254290424906_3434789866705201378_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38221125

Does anyone else think it would be cool to see a miniatures format of the "All guardsmen Party" that shoggy posted about?

>> No.38221141

>>38221114
Thunderfire cannon is the first thing that popped into my head.

>> No.38221153

>>38221114
The Ultramarine chapter deal from some time ago. There, you even have diversity.

>> No.38221159

>>38221106
While it's surely one of the most powerful unit in the game I won't put the Riptide as the most powerful. IK and Wave serpents take the cake for me.

>> No.38221168

>>38220926
>Except that's fixing the problem of powerful units with more powercreep, and has more far-reaching effects than just solving the wraithtide problem directly.

It's safe to say the whole 3rd edition damage system, introduced to streamline the game in a simpler age, is now stretched to the breaking point.

>> No.38221171

>>38221114
See.
>>38220049

>> No.38221177

>>38220886
Semantic now? Pointing out what one unit doesnt have, and the 'cheaper unit gets it' is whining. Take the dick out of your ass.

>> No.38221203

>>38219866
that a Command Squad can just be taken without a Captain or so on to be a bodyguard for.
>Any Character can be designated as your Warlord
The way you state this, you almost make it sound as if the Runtherd in a squad of Grots can be the army Warlord. Please tell me you meant "character in the HQ slot".

>Yes, he's only a command squad upgrade
Pretty daft really, but anyway
>Red Scorpions have a chapter trait that lets the sergeant become an apothecary, though, since they have extra amounts of them and attach them to regular units
I was aware that the Red Scorpions had a rule like that. Presumably it's still in effect.

>Other armies have wizards and engineers besides Empire, man
The burden of pointing this out is on you, man. As I see it, the spellcasters and high technicians of every army other than recent 40K ones fits perfectly with a responsibility of leadership thus far. You can find exceptions if you want to disprove my point..

>So, how would you make it so that only the most experienced dude gets to be the leader?
It's not about the "most experienced" outside of exceptional circumstances like a Chapter Master being lead by a Captain. It's about having a majority plague marine army lead by a Khornate Warlord. Certain armies should have alignments within them, with limits on their prescence unless an aligned character is present. Say, you cannot have more Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch units combined than there are Nurgle units in an army with a Nurgle warlord. That just make plain sense and is easy to understand.

>enjoy playing your 10,000pts. games
Or my 3000pt games, which is exactly the sort of size you should be playing THE Archaon, Lord of the End Times at. Your hyperbole is ridiculous.

>> No.38221223

so I've been away from 40k for a long time, and maybe thinking of exploring it as a hobby again

I looked through the rulebooks I have... there is a 2nd ed and two others... they aren't labeled but they must be 3rd and 4th. I've also got a bunch of codexes (which I'm sure are now out of date).

What is the current edition? What has really changed? If I were to look to get back into the game would trying to salvage a bunch of old SM & CSM models be worth the effort?

Are new plastics direct from GW more expensive than if they were cast from pure gold like they used to be?

>> No.38221231

>>38219907
Putting words in people's mouths isn't clever, and neither is making ridiculous extreme assumptions. You're like those people who assume that someone talking about a group of pakistani pedophiles must be racist in their motivations.

>> No.38221243

>>38221223
>If I were to look to get back into the game would trying to salvage a bunch of old SM & CSM models be worth the effort?
>Are new plastics direct from GW more expensive than if they were cast from pure gold like they used to be?

Yes

>> No.38221249

>>38221114
Kor'sarro Khan on Moondrakkan with a Command Squad.
The Command Squad should have an apothecary, on space marine bikes, and should all have grav guns.
Optional add on storm shields so you don't have to jink meaning you always have 3++, and a 5+++.

>> No.38221253

>>38221203
>The way you state this, you almost make it sound as if the Runtherd in a squad of Grots can be the army Warlord. Please tell me you meant "character in the HQ slot".

I haven't followed your back and forth, but rulewise yes, you can totally do that.

>> No.38221265

>>38221177
How is it whining?

I am pointing out the difference between two units considered top tier, and by some nearly synonymous in cheapness.

I don't even want to use it, simply provide a list of differences between the two.

If I wanted to whine I'd talk about what Orks get for their point if they buy their "mini titan"

>> No.38221305

>>38221114

The codex

>> No.38221307

>>38221159
Im with you on Wave Serpents, how they havent been FAQ'd/errata'd is very confusing to me.

>> No.38221310

>>38220576

>So, Marines and Orks wired into their machines and using their minds to move it and sense the world around them, are inferior to Tau, who use a spike to the back of the head to move the suit and sense the world around them.

I am unsure about the pilot experience, but the technology that makes the interface possible may be superior.

>Well, at least Marines and Orks don't go crazy, unlike Tau pilots, so that's a plus.

Oh they can.

Chaos Dreadnoughts (the Contemptor being a mystery here) or "Hel-brutes" are notorious for this.

In fact its said this unreliability is the reason Abbadon commissioned the Defilers.

In fact I think one of the rules for their old "Fire-Frenzy" had them fire their weapons into the closest target, friend or foe.

Loyalist Dreadnoughts are, unlike their Chaos counterparts, allowed to rest and are only awakened when needed.

Older lore for Chaos Dreadnoughts implied they always awake and aware and ,as a result, lost their sanity very quickly (which was one of the reasons their shell was chained down and disarmed when not in use and the pilot kept separate from it)

However in the case of loyalist dreadnoughts, they are known to exhibit questionable behavior at times, such as a Minotaur dreadnought rampaging through a few guard squads, a battle brother of a another chapter and a leman-russ before his Chapter Master stayed his hand (though in the Dreadnoughts defense he mistaken for an enemy war-engine and fired upon).

There was also the Soul Drinkers chapter master (who was a dreadnought) who demonstrated they are fully capable of taking leave of their senses and going power-mad.

Also its noted Deff Dreads and Killa Kans some times have maniacal tendencies as they relish the power they have on the battlefield.

In fact Kan pilots are noted as going on sprees of mass destruction after being interred and immediately targeting those who bullied them in the past.

>> No.38221329

>>38221253
Outside of an Unbound army which is patently meant to defy restrictions, that is patently insane.

>> No.38221339

>>38221243
are there still sets of the "simplified" models (like from the Battle for Macragge set?)

I've seen people who buy several of such kits second hand for cheap and then heavily modify them to produce some really cool stuff

>> No.38221340

>>38221168
I'm not entirely certain what you're advocating then? Everything should die in one successful hit but successful damage should be proportionally harder?

>> No.38221347

>>38221310
>Also its noted Deff Dreads and Killa Kans some times have maniacal tendencies as they relish the power they have on the battlefield.

>In fact Kan pilots are noted as going on sprees of mass destruction after being interred and immediately targeting those who bullied them in the past.

One word.

Greenskins

>> No.38221369

>>38221329
If you mean "Why would you ever do that?" I agree, but the rules literally says that ANY character can be a warlord.

>> No.38221375

>>38221339
>are there still sets of the "simplified" models

Snap fit models? Yeah, theres for IG, CSM, SM and Tyranids.

>> No.38221383

Did Vraks-anon ever post the rules for Uraka and Mamon? I was wondering if their rules had changed.

>> No.38221387

>>38221310
Contemptors dont go crazy, its in IA 2 2nd edition, or IA 13.

>> No.38221400

>>38221375
Orks too.

>> No.38221459

>>38221347
Yeah, for them it would be insanity NOT to do that.

>> No.38221504

>>38217189
>As for the forge fiend (...) its fucking awesome
There was when I realiced you are just lying.

>> No.38221521

>>38221114
tactical squad? You *need these

>> No.38221533

>>38221305
>buying the codex

>> No.38221534

>>38221369
And there's been no FAQ on the matter? You're sure there isn't a stipulation that, at least in a Bound army, the character has to be an HQ choice? Because if not,
>"Why would you ever do that?"
Because you could win games with it. Opening the possibility of Warlordhood up to unit characters allows cheaper, possibly tough and possibly very easy to hide Warlord powers. Really just cheap, not having to spend points on a ridiculous character or think about how your Chaplain is going to make the most of his status as a combat buff and whatever trait you rolled him which may or not be of any use. It's granting options. The trouble is that these options go against the fluff of LIFE. A runtherd does not get to boss around a Warboss. If there was a profile for a Runtnob who coulld have special grotprodz and ride a boar then I could happily stomach that. But if someone turned up for a proper game with that, unless I was feeling in a good mood or the combination was blatantly useless and just for laffs I'd turn it down.

It's like if there was a loophole that allowed you to give a single model two lightning claws, a meltagun and a plasmagun. It'd make a funny looking model, but ultimately it doesn't belong in a proper army, especially if it happens to be effective.

>> No.38221562

>>38221223
thanks for the advice about models.

so what's changed in terms of rules since 4th ed? What is even the current edition?

>> No.38221596
File: 25 KB, 600x620, 60040101014_SpaceMarinesUltimaEditionNEW01.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38221596

Hang on when did this get put up?

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Codex-Space-Marines-Ultima-Edition

>> No.38221607
File: 192 KB, 692x592, 692px-Tactical_Advance.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38221607

>>38220027

Ultramarines by far

>> No.38221621

>>38221534
Dude you still have to take mandatory HQ to take a normal detachment, ant it's clearly made so you can take formations without HQ and have a legal army.

>> No.38221686

>>38221340
>I'm not entirely certain what you're advocating then? Everything should die in one successful hit but successful damage should be proportionally harder?

No, just a return to weapons being able to inflict multiple wounds.

>> No.38221715 [DELETED] 
File: 527 KB, 924x752, Da Kankilla !!.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38221715

>>38221347

Speaking of which apparently the Killa Kan might put itself (and every other Kan near it) in immense danger should the Ork that is the subject of their rage survive.

Case in point the Gorkanaut known as the
"Kankilla" (see the image for details).
>>38221387

>Contemptors dont go crazy, its in IA 2 2nd edition, or IA 13.

That's why I said "the Contemptor being a mystery here".

Its odd it does not go insane like other chaos aligned dreadnought variants. But maybe its construction is better or is not as open to insanity as lesser dreadnoughts are.

I think it mentioned somewhere that Chaos Landraiders don't undergo mutation as other traitor war-engines as the Dark Powers may find them exceptional as is(or something along those lines).

The Contemptor may be in the same category as the Land Raider in that regard.

>> No.38222051

>>38220895
>Average sized game, average sort of force.

So now limiting what you can take is good, but limiting Rares and Specials is bad?

I can't keep up.

>A two-strong command tank squadron with 6-9 other tanks in two to 6 squadrons is apparently "no tanks" by your reasoning.

And 2 tanks is apparently way too many tanks by your reasoning.

Problem is that with the two tanks, there's no much room for anything else in the Lord/Hero allowance. No priests, techpriests, etc.

>Gamebreaking AND unfluffy.

In YOUR vision of the game with percentage system. Not in the current FOC. There in lies the problem, you never specified in what context it's bad.

>I don't know where to begin explaining.

Clearly you don't. You object to fielding HQ tanks and Bloodthirsters, but "oh noes, don't tell me how many bikes I can or cannot field!"

If you cannot field more bikes than that without going Unbound, I suggest you read the rulebook some more, because there's really no limit to how many detachments you can have.

>Not certain that's at all applicable to modern 40K.

You got anything to refute it? Seeing that in current SM codex Apothecaries are still highly regarded, veterans and members of the command squad, who are not selected only for their combat skills but for their tactical ones as well.

>Which as stated earlier is irrevelant if your rank is doctor.

Which is completely wrong and you refuse to acknowledge the fluff in any way.

>Have you ever been in a military?

Yes, I was a light infantry medic.

>And yes, there is such a thing as corruption

But of course. And all the people representing the people in your government are the best and the brightest around, and every company CEO is the smartest man in the whole company. And if they're not: corruption.

>> No.38222090

>>38220895
>This argument can be used to justify ANY model acting as an army's Warlord.

What part of "any Character" don't you get? Yes, that scout sergeant can be your Warlord, if you so wish.

I've seen staff sergeants be in charge of things with lieutenants assisting them, because he was given the command of it.

I once was given the task of assigning medical staff, including some medical NCOs, and I was just a private.

During one exercise we had a platoon completely devoid of any officers or NCOs due to sickness and injuries, and they just trained for a week in the woods with just privates in charge of things, and got lauded for it by the officers.

>I have no idea where your "read the rules hurr" line comes off from

How about the fact that you seem to be totally in the dark about great many things, such as what determines your Warlord, your FOC allowance, basic fluff, or even where the apothecary is in a Marine army?

>Command Squad can just be taken without a Captain or so on to be a bodyguard for.

It can't.

>The way you state this

Already answered.

>You can find exceptions if you want to disprove my point..

Goblin shaman leading an army of orks.

Also a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh leading a Khorne army with a Bloodthirster playing second fiddle.

>That just make plain sense and is easy to understand.

Now you just have to figure out a way to make that arrangement work for everyone and not shoehorn every army into one build.

>Or my 3000pt games

You field Archaon with his full retinue with him at all times?

>> No.38222132

>>38221231
Well I'm not the one who's trying to argue that the game is shit because it doesn't represent a clear command structure and high ranking officers can just take to the field without their advisers and retinue.

>> No.38222149

>>38221715
>Its odd it does not go insane like other chaos aligned dreadnought variants.
I always thought that chaos dreads went crazy because they are just shackled up to start at the hull in the cargo bay for days, weeks, years on end until their war band dumps them into a new battle.

>> No.38222160

>>38220318
>In addition, all Gorgon Heavy Transporters must begin the game with at least one friendly Death Korps unit embarked upon them.
>friendly Death Korps unit
>friendly
>Death Korps

>> No.38222184

>>38222051
>>38222090

Not really sure why you guys are trying to bring real life military practices into a game where you can cherrypick the best troops and equipment available and form a dream team without having to deal with real world conditions that would make this utterly and completely impossible.

>> No.38222185

>>38221607
Pffft...

The only difference between any two ultramarines doing any two jobs is their armament, their devastators, tactical, bikers and whatnot have learned nothing from their time served.

No skilled riders, tank hunters, infiltrators, crusaders or anything.

>> No.38222215

>>38221310
>Chaos Dreadnoughts

Protip, anon, everything Chaos related is crazy. Don't see anything in the fluff saying it's because of their interface. Hell, Marines interface with their armour majority of their lives without any terrible side effects.

>> No.38222226

Do plague marines have trouble dating?

>> No.38222297
File: 208 KB, 532x200, Vraks Land Raider Profile.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38222297

>>38221715

>I think it mentioned somewhere that Chaos Landraiders don't undergo mutation as other traitor war-engines as the Dark Powers may find them exceptional as is(or something along those lines).

I meant that to be mutation or modification.

>Protip, anon, everything Chaos related is crazy.

I didn't say it was due to the interface.

>> No.38222308

>>38220318
You already could with the Centaurs.

Too bad they were overcosted pieces of crap.

>> No.38222312
File: 779 KB, 714x707, 1424223639766.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38222312

>>38222226

They probably have an easier time of it than you.

>> No.38222329

>>38222090
>Also a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh leading a Khorne army with a Bloodthirster playing second fiddle.

I bet it was just a DP running screaming from the Khorne army and those damned tau believed it was leading the charge.

>> No.38222342

>>38221621
> you still have to take mandatory HQ to take a normal detachment
The benefits of having a model other than your HQ as a Warlord are covered in the post you responded to, please read more
>ant it's clearly made so you can take formations without HQ and have a legal army
It is totally unnecessary, a formation is a stand-alone group that can slot into any army or force with it's own built-in leadership. Armies do not have to have a Warlord.

>> No.38222352

>>38222312
3/5

>> No.38222395

>>38221534
>Because you could win games with it.

Don't know anyone who has used it, though. Because putting your Warlord into some cheap shit unit makes it so much easier to get points for slaying them.

And it still doesn't remove the 1 HQ, 2 Troops limit, so you're still buying that HQ, not it just doesn't have to be your HQ.

>single model two lightning claws, a meltagun and a plasmagun

Old CSM codex, I believe, let you have a model with dual lightning claws, plasma pistol, and a combi-bolter. Same with old DA, but with storm bolter instead of combi-bolter.

>doesn't belong in a proper army

Uh-oh, here comes the fun police.

>> No.38222399

>>38220926
What about Multiple Wounds like in Fantasy?

>> No.38222433

Now that Vraks has been updated, Kasstel-Novem could be next. Really hoping it injects some love back into the Orks.

>> No.38222446

>>38222184
I'm not. Don't know why anon is so bent on determining our fun for us, while being all butthurt that his fun is not being acknowledged.

>> No.38222455

>>38222297

Accidentally deleted the post >>38221715 was linked to.

>>38222215

>Protip, anon, everything Chaos related is crazy.

I didn't say it was entirely due to the interface.

>> No.38222525

>>38222342

>The benefits of having a model other than your HQ as a Warlord are covered in the post you responded to, please read more
You just said that now you haven't to spend points on chaplains. Which is false, as you still have to take HQs

>Armies do not have to have a Warlord.
Ooooh, I understand, you are a "special" kind of player

>> No.38222553

>>38222342
>Armies do not have to have a Warlord.
>"When choosing your army, you must nominate one model to be your Warlord."
-7e rulebook

>The benefits of having a model other than your HQ as a Warlord are covered in the post you responded to

Too bad this has not been an issue as of yet.

>> No.38222565
File: 201 KB, 950x440, Gork and Mork's Paperweights..jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38222565

>>38222433

>Now that Vraks has been updated, Kasstel-Novem could be next. Really hoping it injects some love back into the Orks.

I hope it has some options to make a Kustom Orkanaut in a manner similar to the Kustom Stompa.

Or options for the Orkanauts period.

>> No.38222586

>>38222455
>I didn't say it was entirely due to the interface.

I'm yet to see any evidence that it's at all due to the interface. As I said, Marines spend way more hooked to their armour than Tau do in their battlesuits, and they don't start losing it.

>> No.38222598

>>38215811
Trying to write up a Raptors army list involving the Chapter Master.

Should I go with

>Lias Issodon
>3x Sternguard w Combimelta
>3x Stormravens
>6x Land Speeder Tempest

or

>Lias Issodon
>2-3 Tactical Squad (Outflanking)
>2-3 Sternguard in rhino
>assorted armour

>> No.38222616

>>38217981
>Just face the fact that the only reason they made those thing MC is to make them overpowered so people buys the new models,

Not this shit again. GW doesn't make new shit OP so it sells. Some new stuff is OP, some new stuff is average, some new stuff is shit.

Yes, the Riptide is OP. But if GW wanted to make new kits sell, why did they make the Tau flyers mediocre? Yes, Mek Gunz are great, but then why are Flash Gitz average and the Orkanauts bad? Wyverns are amazing, Ogryns are not.

In fact, new models show exactly the same kind of haphazard approach to balance and rules that GW shows to all their stuff. There's no grand conspiracy here. Neither the facts, nor GW's actual philosophy (which is that we buy models based on appearance, not rules) support it.

>> No.38222622

>>38222051
So now limiting what you can take is good, but limiting Rares and Specials is bad?
My word, how are you not following this? I cannot repeat myself on this point again, please go back and reread what has gone before.

>I can't keep up.
Plainly! Like I don't want to be insulting but this straightforward as hell.

>And 2 tanks is apparently way too many tanks by your reasoning.
IN THE HQ SLOT. For fuck's sake, how do you need this shit pointing out to you? Sorry but areyou slow? Do you need every last detail drawn out repeatedly?
>Problem is that with the two tanks, there's no much room for anything else in the Lord/Hero allowance. No priests, techpriests, etc.
Not really a problem for what is supposed to be a small Armoured Company. You live with limitations.

>In YOUR vision of the game with percentage system
Yes. Thank you VERY much for reminding me that my argument about what is sensible in Bound force organisation is my argument, and not someone elses.
>you never specified in what context it's bad.
You have trouble parsing context.

>fourth section
Unbridled daft, I'm sorry but you haven't been paying attention to a word I've said. You appear to be taking each sentence on it's own out-of-context and not reading the entire piece as one continuous body. Kind of like how you butted in to a conversation you knew nothing about and starting objecting to points you didn't understand.

>You got anything to refute it?
Yes, what I wrote in that post did a fine job of it. The quote from the current codex is not equivalent to that old WD quote at all, and neither of them say anything about tactics. The third quote merely indicates an equal degree of tactical compentence to a veteran, which returns us to the qestion that you still haven't answered: do you think it's okay for a normal veteran sergeant to lead an army? Possibly leading Captains and Librarians and Chapter Masters?

>Which is completely wrong
Apropos of? You have to refute a point before it (cont)

>> No.38222660

Is there any change of Harlequins getting any more units or at least a HQ, I want to be able to play space clowns without getting Eldar or DEldar

>> No.38222706

So I'm trying to make an iron hands list that doesn't involve all the bikes, but is also somewhat competitive.

Any suggestions on units? I know Raukaan is about mechanised. Flyers and lascsnnons teams in metsl boxes? Terminators in land raiders? Any pointers?

I'd like to use a fire talon. Are they Allright? Are drop pods good?
Also. Some bikes is cool. I just don't want to be full on white scar mode.

>> No.38222739

>>38222706
Note. I've never played space marine before. Only against them and I don't know much.

>> No.38222752

>>38222660
The Codex was released yesterday.

>> No.38222781

>>38222090
stops being true.

>Yes, I was a light infantry medic.
Well I respect your military experience, but not your reasoning.

>Yes, that scout sergeant can be your Warlord, if you so wish
So you do support absolute ridiculousness. Got it. I'm not certain there's any point in arguing this further since there's a clear fundamental disagreement in what's appropriate in force organisation.

It's basically very simple. I think the very recent changes to Warhammer 40K, which allow a) any character in an army to be it's Warlord, even squad sergeants and medics, b) allow units without any leadership qualifications greater than a sergeant to be HQ choices and c) allow dedicated transports such as Rhinos to be taken outside of FO restrictions, are not good for the character of the game. These are the current rules, and that is fine. The suggested FO that I made in the last thread was done so without knowledge of these changes, which I disapprove. They make sense in the context of a game that does not allow an army to be led by techmarines and populated chiefly by light apcs outside of the patent silliness of Unbound or specific formations. This is just my opinion. End of debate.

>> No.38222805

>>38222132
And neither am I. But I'm not the one leaping to ridiculous and obtuse assumptions to fit a rhetoric.

>> No.38222865

>>38222184
Fortunately, I'm not. The other anon is bringing up ridiculous points like the technical ability of real life officers to shove corporals into command and such like it's at all relevant to a largely-cinematic wargame. He doesn't seem to understand that armies should follow composition rules to maintain the balance of powerful and exotic units on the board and to facillitate variety of purchase and difficult choices in list building, and that these principles extend to HQ choices as well.

>> No.38222937

>>38222586

>As I said, Marines spend way more hooked to their armour than Tau do in their battlesuits, and they don't start losing it.

The Sarcophagus is unhooked when the Dreadnought is not in combat so they may not spend that much time in the actual Dreadnought armor.

Also they are allowed to rest. In some cases it may be decades or even centuries before a Dreadnought is awoken.

A Tau battlesuit pilot by comparison may not have that luxury as they may be pitched into battle constantly.

Also a Space Marines mind may be more conditioned to endure the long periods of time spent in a Sarcophagus versus a Tau one.

>> No.38222960

>>38222865
>shove corporals into command
>implying corporals dont run the army

>> No.38222996

>>38222395
>Because putting your Warlord into some cheap shit unit makes it so much easier to get points for slaying them
Irrevelant when the cheap unit is a cult demagogue hiding in a Land Raider in the back of the field, surrounded by models bought with the points saved by not buying a kitted-out Lord or Prince.

> t still doesn't remove the 1 HQ, 2 Troops limit
Which isn't an issue in Unbound. Have you been following? See the other counterresponse I made about this point for more on non-HQ warlords.

>Old CSM codex, I believe, let you have a model with dual lightning claws, plasma pistol, and a combi-bolter
Yeah, I mean if someone turned up with that, and the model wasn't humourous depicted fumbling with his shit, he wouldn't get to use it because it doesn't make sense.

>Uh-oh, here comes the fun police
Says the man pissing in people's chips. The suggestion that Unbound would be appropriate for strange and unusual army setups is not the work of the Leisure Gestapo, it's just saying knock knock, people who play wargames like some sense to the armies involved.

>> No.38223076

>>38222565
At least just the option to trade transport capacity for say.. a price consistent with their performance.

>> No.38223084

>>38222525
>You just said that now you haven't to spend points on chaplains. Which is false, as you still have to take HQs
UNBOUND. Like I know I made my response to your last post after reading this but man if it doesn't take a year for an idea to get through.

>Ooooh, I understand, you are a "special" kind of player
My my, we have quite the autist here. See, I can make vague disparaging remarks as well!

>> No.38223136

>>38222598
I'd take both tacs and LST's

Both are flavourful, and you should have something to stand on shit being all tacticool n' stuff but neither neglect rapid assault.

If only Raptors could carry marines on their LSStorms...

>> No.38223151

>>38219122
GW cannot into theming, or balance, or any sort of logical thinking or good game design at all

The best hoards in the game are guardsmen, not Orks.

The Best monsters in the game are Riptides, not Carnifexes.

Just think about that for a second.

>> No.38223157

>>38222553
That is so fucking stupid it defies all good sense.

You can't use the Unbound rules to have an army of pure War Walkers, because you have to have at least one character be a Warlord. But you CAN have an army full of Chapter Masters, Canoness, Grey Knight Grand Masters and the ilk led by an imperial guardsman sergeant.

I thought I'd been innoculated to Games Workshop's stupidity by now, but they just find another way to let the side down.

>> No.38223185

>>38222622
>>38222051
You two need to start arguing points separately, that wall of text arguing always results in good points being ignored and a single point blown outta proportions.

>> No.38223202

>>38222960
Apparently so, and tactical squad sergeants run space marine chapters! Chapter Masters are just pretty figureheads and good fighters, have been all along. What do I know?

>> No.38223237

>>38222937
Battlesuits have issues with feedback.

Dreads go mad because the cannot feel properly, Suit users go mad because their heat-vents itches and they can feel their coolant leaking even out of the armour.

>> No.38223241

>>38223202
Assuming 40k was real, Chapter Masters would in all probability be far more of figureheads than combatants, though undoubtbly they would be supremely competent fighters and commanders.

>> No.38223246

>>38223185
I dunno anon, I can follow what the other guy is saying but he keeps returning back to the same stuff we discussed two posts ago. It's the loop that's the problem, that and time delays (I usually end up reading another thread for 15 minutes before I remember and come back here, he probably does the same).

Ultimately I ended the argument here >>38222781 in any case, so there's not much else to it.

>> No.38223274

>>38223136
So replace the Sternguard with tactical squads in the first list?

>> No.38223304

>>38222622
>straightforward as hell

Yes, I can see. Let people have what ever they like, but not the Lords/Heroes, that's just bad.

Reading you loud and clear.

>IN THE HQ SLOT.

So, I can take 9 tanks in Heavy, but 2 HQ tanks is too much. Because of reasons?

>You live with limitations.

But apparently you cannot live with the idea of Special and Rare choices being limited, that you can't have more than 3 units of bikes.

>Thank you VERY much for reminding me

Well, I was talking of how things are in the 40k FOC system right now, so clearly you cannot read either.

>You have trouble parsing context.

So do you, because when I brought it up, I was specifically talking about how things are now. You even fucking said it yourself you didn't have 7e codexes and would have to just believe my word for it. Clearly you were on board back then.

>Kind of like how you butted in to a conversation you knew nothing about and starting objecting to points you didn't understand.

More like corrected your misunderstandings of how things were. Seeing that you yourself said you didn't have any 7e codexes and clearly are not very versed in the 7e rules.

>You have to refute a point before it stops being true.

You have to make a point that's bound to more than your opinion. I've already provided 2 sources telling you Apothecaries are highly trained veterans, capable fighters and worthy of joining the command squad, and that the chapter doesn't let just anyone be an apothecary.

You have to show me where they are "just doctors" with no pull what so ever in the chapter. Because that you have not provided.

>> No.38223314

>>38223274
Nooo, sternguard are ALSO awesome and flavourful.

That's the common denominator in the two lists and the reason I didn't have much to add.

>> No.38223325

>>38222996
>>38222996
Wait, you know that unbound is only for two things, completely narrative games or faggotry of the most extreme? And in neither of these cases being able to make a character warlord makes any difference?

If it's narrative then it's narrative, so you don't make a Runtherd the boss of Ghazkull for the same reasons you are playing narrative

If it's for maximum bullshit then you just take the cheapest HQ that exist, like a Commissar o a Dark Eldar medusae.

In neither case if you had to make only a HQ warlord you'll spend points in chaplains.

>>38223202
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Julan

>> No.38223326
File: 52 KB, 550x440, GW42-43.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38223326

I'm getting back into 40k. what's the deal with sniper teams, troop wise? I understand that the rifles don't have rending, but I have questions...

1. are they just special weapons teams now? 2. What's the minimum size a team can be?

>> No.38223331

>>38223241
I can entertain the notion to be honest, it's just not the official GW line at all. Chapter Masters are gods of strategy and tactics and conveniantly-badass fighters for the sake of pewpewpew as well, but in reality positions of visible authority are generally earned by personable, largish but unoffensive characters with broad life experience rather than smart experts or any extreme kind of persona. In fact this is something I've been discussing a fair amount lately, the balance between visible and invisible rulers.

But damnit, if it doesn't have anything to do with cinematic wargames!

>> No.38223343

>>38222622
>So you do support absolute ridiculousness.

Oh man, now you've done it. Acknowledging how things are is not the same as supporting it. Rules are rules, like it or not.

>a) any character in an army to be it's Warlord, even squad sergeants

Your forge narrative poorly. What if you have 6 units of IG Vets, with Harker, and a Lord Commissar. Commissars are political officers, not military ones, so surely the highest ranking military officer would be Harker, a sergeant, would it not? So why can't he lead the army of Catachan Devils, instead of insisting the Commissar take the lead, something which Catachans absolutely hate and would probably frag him for it?

>allow units without any leadership qualifications greater than a sergeant to be HQ choices

So where are we going to stick all the techpriests, priests, etc. then?

>allow dedicated transports such as Rhinos to be taken outside of FO restrictions

But that's how it has always been. Dedicated Transports are not part of the FOC. Recent changes has moved them into the FOC, meaning simply that armies can buy them without them having to be dedicated to a certain unit, but in turn using up an FOC slot (most often FA one), just like Land Raiders have been doing for ages.

>> No.38223345

>>38223314
having been away from the scene for several years now, can I start the game with the Stern mounted in the Stormravens, and if so, can I have them outflank with Lias' warlord trait?

>> No.38223361

>>38223326
No more sniper teams really, ratling snipers are pretty much it, other units CAN take rifles, but not make anywhere as good use of them.

>> No.38223381

>>38223345
To my knowledge yes, but I haven't read the raptors or lias' rules since they first came out.

>> No.38223388

>>38223304
>>38223325
>>38223343
Mate, don't bother. We just happen to fundamentally disagree on what should go into force organisation, it's as simple as that. Nothing left to discuss.

>> No.38223392

>>38223361
ok thanks, thats what i thought.

>> No.38223525

>>38223076

Unless that transport capacity is worth around 80 points, it won't be enough.

>> No.38223544

I have a quick question about stormtalons before I buy one. My codex leads me to believe they can escort drop pods, thats correct, right? Is this as amazing as I think it can be or am I overlooking something?

Secondly is it worth it to pick up a land speeder to deep strike with meltas or flamers in low points games? Not sure how competitive that is considering its at the mercy of my scatter dice.

>> No.38223566

>>38223525
Yeah, my thoughts too.

Ah well, not like the models is worth the money either, hell even if I got it for free I'd break it down for conversion bits.

>> No.38223596

>>38223544
Melta/Flamer speeders are fragile but can be absolutely brutal on the alpha stike, ESPECIALLY in a Salamanders army (Which is silly since salamanders almost never use them)

>> No.38223623

>>38223525
Or you could just make them assault vehicles.

>> No.38223659

>>38222996
>Which isn't an issue in Unbound.

So what's the problem? I mean, going Unbound already means you're not taking a HQ, which means your Warlord already has to be something else.

>he wouldn't get to use it because it doesn't make sense

So they're not allowed to use a perfectly legal model because you don't like it?

Calgar has 2 fists, 2 bolters and a sword. Yarrick has a power claw, bolt pistol, storm bolter and a close combat weapon. Kell has a power fist, power sword and a laspistol. Command Squad vets can ride on a bike with a storm shield while wielding a meltagun and a combi-flamer.

I guess they're not allowed either, because you say so.

>Says the man pissing in people's chips.

Well would you kindly stop pissing in them? Because so far you've been the most adamant about denying stuff because you don't find it making any sense, or because you think it can be exploited, even though so far no such exploit has risen, and I'm sure people have had more than enough time to figure out all the ways to fuck with it.

>> No.38223692

>>38223157
Stop sperging and read the rules, retard. If you don't have a Character in your army, you choose some other model to be your Warlord.

>> No.38223698

Newfag question:a Nids army is good for someone who wants to start in the hobby?

>> No.38223751

>>38223596
Good to know they can be threatening, but are they consistent enough?

>> No.38223759

>>38223246
>he keeps returning back to the same stuff we discussed two posts ago

And when I don't acknowledge already mentioned things, you get all pissy.

>> No.38223827

>>38223388
Too bad >>38223325 ain't me.

>> No.38223833

>>38223751
Their price-tags means you can afford the low chance of having one take a dangerous terrain test.

They are glass cannons.

>> No.38223849

>>38223659
>>38223692
>>38223759
>he keeps on going

>> No.38223884

>>38223623

It's 6 models. For anything other than a tooled up Nobz squad, that's not enough to make much of an impact. Furthermore, it's slow. You don't want to stick an assault unit in a model that moves exactly as quickly as they would if they were footslogging. It means you're spending half the game just getting them to the enemy.

>> No.38223895

>>38223698
They take work to make work, If you are willing to do the research they can be good, but... I'd play a couple of proxy game with borrowed models before even considering opening my wallet.

>> No.38223931

>>38223833
Thats true enough, thanks for the advice. I think I'll call my FLGS and have one ordered tonight.

>>38223544
>I have a quick question about stormtalons before I buy one.

Anyone have a say on this?

>> No.38223933

>>38223623
Not worth it.

Transport cap is best used on Meks/Burnas/Tank bustas to counter something coming at it.

>> No.38223969

>>38223849
I thought you were going to end this. Also, again, only 2 of those are mine, so at least you tried.

>> No.38223998

>>38223931
Fraid I don't have the marine dex.

>> No.38224064

>>38223544
Stormtalon cannot escort deep striking or outflanking units. First bullet point of the Escort Craft special rule.

>> No.38224106

New one up.
>>38224087

>> No.38224135

Hey guys, help me craft my Space Marine list. Here's what I have so far.

HQ:

Level 2 Terminator Librarian - 115 Pts

Attached to

x5 Sternguard Veterans - 120 pts (I know they're elites but I'm just putting them here since they're going with the Libby)

Troops:

x10 Tactical Marines - 140 pts

x10 Tactical Marines - 140 pts

Fast Attack:

2x Storm Talon Gunship w/ Lascannon - 280 pts

Transport:

Drop Pod (For Libby + Stern) - 30 pts

Total so far: 825

Shooting for 1800-1850 points.

Any suggestions that I should add? I'm pretty new to 40k so I left my squads blank besides the Storm Talons because I don't know what heavy weapons/gear to generally take.

>> No.38224138

>>38224064
Seems so, thanks for the help. Now if you'll excuse me I guess I need to go sign up for some reading comprehension and retention classes.

>>38223998
Thats fine, thanks though.

>> No.38224180

>>38224135
>>38217524
You'll probably get more help in the list thread.

>> No.38224187

>>38224135
List thread is here>>38217524, also in autosage.

>> No.38224207

>>38224180
Ah, didn't see that. Thanks.

>> No.38224220

>>38224207
No problem.

>> No.38224224

>>38223895
Thank you for the advice, i'll try to contact some of the older people that play around here before purchasing anything.

>> No.38224418

>>38223969
>it's been over for 40 minutes and he keeps going

>> No.38224680

>>38221504
>There was when I realiced you are just lying.

You must be a delight to be around.

>> No.38224724
File: 69 KB, 800x561, 665464_md-Inq28, Inquisitor, Missionaries, Missionary, Scouts, Warhammer 40,000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38224724

What's the optimal loadout for a ministorum priest in, respectively, shooty (bolters + 3x plasma) and cc-oriented inq henchmen units?

>> No.38226667

>>38216974
When Tau first came out, the designers explicitly stated that they made the battlesuits infantry rather than vehicles because spamming low-armour vehicles with plasma guns and missile pods was way too powerful at the time.
It doesn't have to make sense, it was a pure game balance/marketing decision. They wanted people to buy a lot of battlesuits, so making them vehicles and upping the cost was not an option.

Of course it's retarded that a riptide which has a pilot is a MC if a dreadnought controled by a gimpmarine who's permanently hooked up to it is a vehicle, but 40K was never very good at internal consistency and the whole game runs on endless exceptions to what makes sense or how a given situation is handled rules-wise.

>> No.38226785
File: 104 KB, 1024x1024, 1420937110425.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
38226785

>>38226667
>They wanted people to buy a lot of battlesuits
>only a decade later could you make an army of suits

>> No.38226814

>>38223331
SM chapters are their own organizations though with a lot of ritual, tradition and a strict internal hierarchy.

Being a clever politician or "safe choice" takes a back seat to being promoted based on accomplishment and respect.

A Chapter Master or company Captain doesn't have to play nice with media or interest groups the same way that real world leaders do, they have to be more space marine than the other space marines. They're not a community of civilians.

>> No.38226934

>>38220612
They aren't experiencing full sensory deprivation though... It's just that they can't exactly go around and chill in the chapter monastery cafeteria or take a stroll in dormitories, their new bodies are pretty shit for anything but wrecking stuff, so putting them in stasis is just more humane than letting them stand around in the vehicle park twiddling their dreadnought thumbs for ages between battles.

>> No.38227007

>>38226785
Making them vehicles would have made them more expensive points wise, so people wouldn't have used as many. Besides, you could field like 17 crisis suits in a normal force organization chart even back then.

>> No.38227171

>>38224724

The answer is always power maul.

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