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[ERROR] No.38201336 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>>38200509
>A 1v1 with a wizard against a fighter will end with the fighter being the victor.

I'm starting a new general since the old one got archived. Also its always good to start off the thread with some humor.

>> No.38201419

Pathfinder isn't balanced around PC class fighting one another. Its about teamwork against various obstacles, and in that situation the wizard has far more options compared to martial classes.

>> No.38201420

>>38201336

>1v1 a Fighter will win against a wizard every time
>Explain why that's bullshit
>But wizards aren't going to be that paranoid, and they can't have every spell for the job
>Explain why even THAT'S bullshit
>Why do you even care, wizards will never do that so there's no reason to complain etc. etc.

Literally every time I've talked to someone about Caster Supremacy, the conversation goes like this.

>> No.38201486

>>38201420
Explain to them the cookie method.
A fighter and a wizard want a cookie. But it's on the top shelf and they can't reach it. What options does the fighter and the Wizard have to get the cookie?

(List them out here. You will be graded.)

>> No.38201557

>>38201486
Sorry, misphased that. The cookie is on top of the refrigerator in the cookie jar. At least this way the fighter can hack the fridge to bits so the cookie jar can come down to him.
The wizard can too, of course

>> No.38201559

>>38201486

The thing is, if you do that than they'll point out the fighter can use everything from a pole to a ladder to a hook to get it down.

And that's not including using a bow, climb or acrobatics score.

>> No.38201565

Does anyone have a psionics based, or at least psionics friendly, character sheet spreadsheet they could send me a link to? My google-fu sucks.

>> No.38201629

>>38201559
So they can use items. So can the wizard. What else?
They can use skills too, like climb.(although the wizard gets more)
What else?

>> No.38201680

>>38201486
Fighter:
Smash the shelf
Climb the shelf
Use Items, like ladders.

Wizard:
Smash the shelf with a spell
Climb the shelf.
Use Items.
Shrink the shelf
Disintegrate the shelf.
Levitate the cookie.
Fly up to the cookie.
Summon creatures to get the cookie.
Teleport the cookie.
Teleport the shelf away.
Teleport himself on top of the shelf.
Wish for the cookie.

>> No.38201684

>>38201629
A wizard can use mage hand or telekinesis to move the jar down. He could have his familiar do it for him. He can melt down the fridge. He could fly himself up there. He can make himself larger so he could get the cookie jar. He could animate the jar to come down to him. He could teleporter himself or the jar. He could summon a billion and one things to get it for him, or cast spells to get it for him. He could mind control someone to get it for him. He could make his own fucking cookie with a spell, and better than a fighter could ever hope to do.

>> No.38201685

>>38201629

The interviewed then gets flustered, mumbles something about wizards "only having like a couple 'grab the cookie' spells anyway", and shifts the argument to claiming a fighter isn't meant to be good at grabbing cookies, but instead breaking furniture.

>> No.38201768

>>38201685
So does the DM just run encounters until the wizard is out of spells so the fighter can shine?

>> No.38201809

>>38201685
Also ask, what is the wizard supposed to be bad at, if it's not grabbing cookies

>> No.38201847

>>38201768

The response I've always seen to this is that "arguing about Caster Supremacy is stupid because the only Wizards who will actually assert their superiority are assholes."

And then you bring up HP bloat, diminishing AC returns and monstrous special abilities at high levels, causing the person you're talking to to shriek, throw his book at you and then run off before you can see the tears of rage and realization in his eyes.

>> No.38201913

>>38201847
Also item creation. Don't forget that martials are shackled to casters who can make them items!

>> No.38201994

>>38201913

What if you have the Master Craftsman feat?! Grab that and you'll be able to watch your martial make magic items!

HAH, TAKE THAT CASTERS! WE'RE JUST AS GOOD AS YOU! JUST AS GOOD!

>> No.38202170

>>38201994
Thanks for the laugh!

But, seriously, Martials are VERY useful in a game. They're the one who babysit caster through their first 3-4 levels.

Anywhere past that and you're slipping fast into "meat shield" territory.

>> No.38202195

>>38202170
Run Path of War to solve that.

>> No.38202220

>>38202195

But Path of War is overpowered and makes a mess of pre-existing (and Paizo approved) archetypes or classes.

Why would I want to play something that unbalances the game.

>> No.38202240

>>38198320
How long does the shaken effect from Daunting Challenge last?

>>38202195
This whole thing came out of someone at the end of the last thread who claimed PoW is "OP as fuck".

>> No.38202244

>>38202220
Nice b8 m8 I r8 8/8

>> No.38202245

>>38202195
You're kidding, right? A book's whose description is "(...) the Path of War allows for martially-inclined characters to harness new abilities to aid them in combat. " actually screws them the first few levels?

>> No.38202247

>>38202195
weeabo fightan magic
Fuck that shit.

>> No.38202284

>>38202220
You serious?

>>38202195
I'm all for Path of War, but it's still smash the shelf, climb the shelf, use items like ladders, and maybe teleport if they have the one discipline for it.

>> No.38202298

>>38202284
Or fly to it, allowed by a 5th level Silver Crane stance or a 6th level Black Seraph one.

>> No.38202333

Remove scrolls/wands/potions/etc

Any character can spend gold to gain spells as x/day or at-will use custom slotless magic items

Thoughts?

>> No.38202365

>>38202298
Or leaping dragon boost.
or they could smell out other cookies with a scent stance.
teleports with veiled moon

>> No.38202419

>>38202284
>You serious?

Paizo has been releasing so many martial classes I don't really know where to begin, it's obvious they're doing a martial focus to give players a plethora, a SMORGASBORD if you will, of options.

Want to play a brawler? Well there's the brawler!

Want to play a dashing, valiant mounted warrior? Look, Cavalier, Paladin and a variety of Fighter archetypes!

Want to be a sneaky, cunning warrior who blends subterfuge with strength to devastating effect? Rogue, Stalker and Ninja are your friends!

Want to be a legendary archer, able to amble through forests like no one's business? Oh look, Slayer, Hunter and Ranger!

Point is, mages get... What, a handful of tired classes that haven't been updated in years, growing dust and becoming increasingly unoptimized in a rapidly changing gamescape?

And you think the martials need MORE? Path of War is Overpowered as fuck and honestly whiny.

>> No.38202465

>>38202298
Your right I forgot about those, you can also stop time too steal the cookies with no one knowing who did it with the Riven Hourglass style. Sleeping goddess might allow you to have a metaphorical dream battle outside of normal reality with the cookies too.

>> No.38202520

>>38202333

Idea: Anyone with a spellbook can enchant it to cast spells

The wizard class doesn't actually get spellcasting as a class feature, they just get bonus virtual gold to spend on a spellbook

>> No.38202525

>>38202419
Oh, tell me how about the class features or Paizo martials are more than modifiers to their rolls or a couple extra dice here and there, while casters get a crapton of support spells in addition to their wide combat-focused array of spells. Spheres of Power is so much more balanced than Vancian Magic, nerfing all T1s and T2s to T3. Path of War just ups all martials to at least T4 while giving T3-worthy full martials.

>> No.38202676

If a spell says it sets and enemy on fire, but doesn't specify a duration, how long does the enemy burn?

>> No.38202704

>>38202676

Until they put it out.

>> No.38202715

>>38202704
Or they burn out.

>> No.38202733

>>38202676

If the spell is instant, until they put it out, because it's mundane fire. If the spell is permanent, forever or until the spell is dispelled. If the spell has another duration, assume all effects end when it does, unless they have their own stated durations.

>> No.38202837

>>38201685
The wizard can grab cookies as a cantrip, he can also grab a fruit/vegetable and make it taste like cookies if he wanted to. As a cantrip.

>> No.38202842

>>38202520
Speaking of spellbooks, how would I go about pimping my spellbook out?

My GM allowed me to use the book as a custom staff, so I'm looking for some answers.

1) What should I put on my staff?
2) What else can I enchant a book with?
3) How do I go about getting infinite pages?
4) Is there a way to tattoo a bag of holding into your hand?
5) Best material for books?

>> No.38202853

>>38202525
Spheres of power is pretty dope. I think it's the best way to do JoJo's Bizarre adventures stands.

>> No.38202873

Okay /tg/, I'm building a Dwarven Witchguard Ranger. I am going for a "switch-hitter" (the emphasis is mostly being intent to bludgeon shit to death, but being able to fight at range, NOT the "shoot shit until it gets close and then drop the bow" type) and I'm curious how to handle it.

2nd level
16 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
12 Int
14 Wis
7 Cha
Traits: Reactionary and Glory of Old
Feats: Power Attack and Precise Shot (Archery combat style)

What would be a good Patron to grab when I get spells at level 4?
Beyond grabbing Archery stuff with the bonus combat feats, what kind of feats should I take with my normal ones?

>> No.38202991

>>38202419
>Point is, mages get... What, a handful of tired classes that haven't been updated in years, growing dust and becoming increasingly unoptimized in a rapidly changing gamescape?

Now you're bullshitting, or legitimately retarded. Half those classes/archetypes are borderline unusable.

Full casters get new spells, feats, familiars, magic items only the can use, new demons to summon and more ways to shore up their "weaknesses".

And 99.9% martial can't do all of those at once, or even some of those at once, or even one of those at once. A prepared caster can cast every spell in the fucking game if they want to.

>> No.38202998

>A +1 magic weapon costs 2,000 gp
>A permanent magic weapon spell on an item costs 2,000 gp
>A +5 magic weapon costs 50,000 gp
>A permanent greater magic spell (CL 20) on an item costs 120,000 gp

Where did the math go so wrong?

>> No.38203093

Do Pearls of Power work for Arcanists?

>> No.38203123

>>38202419
>Point is, mages get... What, a handful of tired classes that haven't been updated in years, growing dust and becoming increasingly unoptimized in a rapidly changing gamescape?
What is Familiar folio?

>> No.38203128

>>38202873
>7Cha
Enjoy being literally unable to talk to people without them hating you on sight.

>> No.38203221

>>38203128
7 CHA is not THAT low. He is just a dwarf, very grumpy and all.

>> No.38203274

>>38203221

Trolls have 7 CHA.

Bears have 7 CHA.

The exact definition of 7 CHA is thus:

>Uninteresting, rude, boorish, and generally unpleasant to be around

>> No.38203334

>>38203274

D&D has always had a sharp disconnect between what a stat is *described* to mean ("You're the smartest guy in the nation!") and what it actually means ("You have about a 20% better chance of passing a given test than an Int10 peasant, unless the test is ostensibly in the (very small) range of DCs that only you can pass and he cannot.")

>> No.38203339

>>38203274

>Bears
>Uninteresting
>Rude
>Boorish
>Unpleasant

>> No.38203355

>>38203274
That pretty much describes most dwarves, no?

>> No.38203408

Level 1 Fighter
vs
Level 1 Wizard

1) Did the wizard knew the fight was coming?
+8 AC
2) Is the Wizard a Sylph or have access to Windy Escape?
>10DR for 1 attack, 5ft step away, colorspray. If you didn't win initiative. Otherwise just Colorspray.

Level 20 Fighter
vs
Level 20 Wizard

>Flight

>> No.38203502

>>38201768

That GM is going to have a bad time, as the LAST thing Fighty McGee and Sneaky McRogue are thinking when the cleric's out of healing, the Bard's outta buffs, and the Wizard's spent all his control and support is "oh boy, now it's our turn to take on entire encounters with no backup!"

>> No.38203539

>>38203355

Boring, rude and terrible people?

Yeah.

>> No.38203659

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Guiding%20Vellum1st

Is there an arcane version of this?

>> No.38203706

>>38202419

Path of War isn't so much a power thing as it is a middle finger to "stand still or suck" syndrome, something that every Martial gets hit with hard but Casters ignore.

See, as a Martial levels, that full attack gets mighty important to staying relevant in a fight. But unless you're a specific build of Brawler or Barbarian, full attacks can't be done unless you give up your move action. This creates a situation where fighting is a heavily concentration-based endeavor where you can't really move around freely while remaining effective while magic-users are all over the map without sacrificing anything, which is the exact opposite of how magic vs martial arts are usually depicted.

Path of War's disciplines make fighting styles feel varied in the same way spell lists are varied. You've got your strikes, your boosts, your stances, all things that give your fighty character OPTIONS in a fight rather than NUMBERS, which is what they usually get.

PoW maneuvers answer the consideration that a caster leveling up learns a great many WAYS to apply their power to fit different situations, while a martial leveling up mostly learns "hit it HARDER." The disciplines are seriously great for making martial characters feel like they're learning new options and techniques rather than doing what they've been doing since level 1.

Also, you wanna talk overpowered as fuck?

>Hi there, my name's the Arcanist and I'm here to ruin everything.

>> No.38203720

Which of the following events would you say have more potential for interesting events, NPCs, situations or other "meat" for a session:

1. Tournament
2. Festival
3. Ball/Party (masked and unmasked varieties)
4. Play/Musical Competition
5. Grand Feast

These would all be taking place at my character's estate, which is sort of a cross between a chateau and a castle. It is also the lair of a dragon and my character's wife who would spend the entirety of the festival in humanoid form.

>> No.38203741

>>38203706
He's the Arcaniest!

>> No.38203777

>>38203720

>Tournament [For your fighty PCs]
>Ball/Party (Masked and Unmasked) [For the other guys, and some of your more urbane fighty PCs]

Be careful, though, most PCs know nothing good ever happens at a masquerade ball and will likely come armed to the teeth under their costumes.

>> No.38203959

>>38203128
Newsflash: this post proves you have sub-7 CHA.

7 Cha on a Dwarf is actually roughly average. They're gruff fuckers. And that's entirely how I intend to play him: he's a mercenary that is going to be sticking his nose into the campaign because he figured he could turn a profit, and as a Gorumite, find himself some good stuff to fight.

>> No.38203967

>>38203777
>most PCs know nothing good ever happens at a masquerade ball and will likely come armed to the teeth under their costumes.

My character once worked with his wife and some friends to set up a Whodunnit Murder-Mystery where, during a Masquerade Ball my character was hosting, it appeared as though he was violently murdered during the festivities.

It was really humorous too, since I faked getting "shocked" at dice rolls the DM was doing in the background and then the party chanced upon my "corpse."

>> No.38203995

>>38203659

>every day the guiding vellum says "cure X wounds" because the party could take damage that day

>> No.38204058

>>38203995
>Defeat the big bad evil guy
>Party taking a week to... Party
>Look at the pages out of habit
>Cure light wounds.
>Remove disease.

>> No.38204083

>>38202998
>>38202520

Hmm, if spell slots were converted to command word activated 1/day SLAs, a wizard would have 46,440 gp worth of spell slots (from class features alone, not including bonus slots for high int score)

I don't even want to bother doing the math calculating higher levels, especially since 9th level spell slots are worth 55,080 each

>> No.38204091

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-7zY5ytanIYBn4eio8xHfdfsbUV9hWCdDtfoCVfUtDc/edit?usp=sharing

Repostan my Knight homebrew cause some anon wanted to see it.

>> No.38204126

>>38201680
Charm the fighter to get the cookie and bring it to you

>> No.38204173

>>38204126

Create a new cookie
Create a new plane of cookies

>> No.38204177

What are some of the way for me to break fungal stun vial mid-air, similar to how flash bomb work in monster hunter?

I really want to flash bomb some wyvern down and laugh

>> No.38204186

>>38202240

Oh yeah thanks, I'll add a clause for that.

>> No.38204197

>>38204173

Contact the minions of the god of cookies to bake one for you
Contact the god of cookies directly

>> No.38204322

>>38204197

Transform some lint in his pocket into a cookie

>> No.38204376

>I love to play Fighters
>As a DM, I needed to make a powerful and memorable Boss
>So, I made this:

>>Next post: Will run out of room here

>> No.38204457

>>38201336
I get to play an android in an upcoming campaign but not sure what class would suit them best. I though going monk and playing pic related. Any other suggestions for good Android classes?

>> No.38204479

>>38204457
Yes. Not monk.

>> No.38204518

>>38204457
> android

What is this home brew nonsense?

>> No.38204524

>>38204457
Sacred Fist > Monk

>> No.38204560

>>38204518

It's not homebrew

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-rp/android-16-rp

>>38204457

Sadly androids kind of shit aside from their surge ability; otherwise they're inferior tieflings

>> No.38204612

>>38204457
Sacred fist, Quiquong Monk, Maybe something from Spheres of power or a Path of War supernatural discipline.

>> No.38204618

>>38204457
Be a Sacred Fist or a Brawler X/Aegis 3 with Student of the Astral suit if you want to go for a flying DBZ style character.

>> No.38204629

>>38204376

>Neanderthal Sorcerer
>>Neanderthal? Yeah. I wanted a strong Humanoid that wasn't over the top. Neanderthals get +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int (Sorcs are Cha-based anyway), +6 HP, +1 Natural Armor, and a few other things
>Crossblooded Archetype
>Abyssal & Orc
>Skill: Survival (O)
>Spells: Cause Fear (A), Bull's Strength (Both), Rage (B), Wall of Fire (O), Cloudkill (O), Transformation (B), Delayed Blast Fireball (O), Ironbody (O), Summon Monster IX (A)
>Feats: Augmented Summoning (A), Empower Spell (A), Great Fortitude (A), Power Attack (B), Toughness (O), Endurance (O), Diehard (O), Widen Spell (O), Improved Bull Rush or Improved Overrun (O - Haven't decided which yet)
>Arcana: Abyssal's Summoning
>Powers: Claws (A), Fearless (O), Strength of the Beast (O), Added Summonings (A), Demonic Magic (A)

Basically he is super god damn strong, has high resistances and AC, and can summon shit to fuck your shit up, who get bonuses just because they were summoned by him

The rest isn't quite finished. Just started working on him tonight.

>Mithral Full Plate + Rending Claw Bracer

>Level Feats: Armor Proficiency (Light, Medium, & Heavy), Arcane Armor Proficiency, Arcane Armor Mastery, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Rending Claws, Rending Fury, Improved Rending Fury, Lightning Reflexes

I could swap out possibly IRF for Eldritch Heritage, giving him a third Bloodline albeit a -2 Will... But if I do that, he'd get the Harrow Bloodline so he can get that sexy +5 to any Save he wants (Overriding the -2 Will, effectively giving a +3). With the Fate's Favored Trait, it's bumped up another +1, to an eventual +6 (At 19th Level)

>> No.38204659

>>38204457

>Android
>Always, ALWAYS, go Barbarian or Sorc

>Barbarian = NEVER FATIGUE OR EXHAUSTION
>Sorc = Android Bloodline to supplement yourself better

>> No.38204699

>>38204659

Dual-blooded sage + nanite?

>> No.38204719

>>38204659
How can an andorid be a barb? They don not benefit from morale bonus and are unaffected by emotions.. like rage.

>> No.38204746

>>38204659

>Barbarian Android
>Barbarian rage gives morale bonuses
>Android can't benefit from morale bonuses

Yeah there's a really fucking great idea

>> No.38204818

>>38204629

>Third Bloodline albeit a -2 Will

Sorry, I had that mixed up.

The Crossblooded Archetype nets you the -2 Will, but allows you to pick and choose literally everything from two different Bloodlines.

Eldritch Heritage grants you a single 1st Level Power. Improved EH gets you a 3rd, and GEH gets you a 15th or something like that.

So it'd actually take three Feats to do that. That's why I decided against it. While a possible +6 Save is very much worth it, I'd prefer a bit more tightening on him, rather than shotgunning him with everything that sounds cool.

As it is, his Claw alone would be dealing a considerable amount. Yeah, he gets a pissy little 10 BAB, but his Strength is so god damn high that it really doesn't matter.

Between his +2 Racial, his +4 Rage, his Bull's Strength, his Strength of the Beast, and his Empower Spell... I haven't done the math but I know it's a lot. I'm starting him off on like 15 Strength or so (Buyout; A little in each).

I'll do the math and figure it out for you guys.

>> No.38204840

>>38204629

Make an enemy and give it the sorcerer template instead

>> No.38204941

>>38204659
You are a goddamn idiot.

>> No.38205136

>>38204629
I like this as an enemy. Kind of like a savage caster. I may steal this.

>> No.38205153

>>38204941

cmon lets not give the guy too much trouble, it sounds good on paper before you carefully read android

>> No.38205217

>>38204091
If you want a new homebrewed martial, have a look at this.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ex1RW_cbMH0kcS7JjkP1-ARQOMJMayd65gej46S9MYw/pub

I'll read your guy and see what its like

>> No.38205247

>>38205153
There's a trait from People of the Stars that lets androids get access to morale bonuses, so they can rage, but are still immune to fatigue. They immediately become the best rage cyclers in the game. It's a beautiful and terrible thing.

>> No.38205322

>>38205247

sasuga paizo

give something a drawback and then forget why they gave it that drawback

>> No.38205352

>>38205247
I can't find the trait you speak of on the SRD. What is it called?

>> No.38205426

So I asked last thread but the only response I got was to play what sounded like a really sub-par class.

I'm trying to come up with a way to imitate a Guild Wars 1 mesmer. The only things I can come up with, short of homebrewing an entire new class, is to roll either

Wizard and focus on illusion/enchantment with a bit of divination/abjuration thrown in.

Sorcerer for the flavor of charisma being the main ability, which is very mesmer-esque.

Psion and focus on telepathy/mind affecting stuff.

Suggestions?

Reference: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mesmer

Also, how do y'all feel about vitalists? I was reading through their stuff (because some anon mentioned a time he played vitalist in the last thread) and it sounds like a pretty fun way to play a healer, especially if you choose soulthief.

>> No.38205456

>>38205426

My thoughts: Even guild wars 2 can't properly model guild wars 1 mesmer, Pathflounder certainly won't

>> No.38205497

>>38205426
you could try Eliciter from SoP

>> No.38205506

>>38205456

Anon please don't bring up that abortion. ;~;

>> No.38205537

>>38205506

>> No.38205541

>>38205426
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?188545-3-5-Base-Class-The-Mesmer-PEACH!

It doesn't take a whole lot to convert this to Pathfinder.
>vitalists
Vitalists are really good, and the most fun I've had playing a healbot that wasn't in 4e.

>> No.38205769

>>38205322
>>38205352
I was apparently wrong, it is a feat

>> No.38205863

>>38204091
Why would you need a Knight, when Cavelier fills the same niche but with more character creation options?

>> No.38205895

Sorry if this is old news, but the Blade Mystic and Elemental flux dropped for Path of War expanded.

Blade Mystic: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-NXNSjsconKLQNhqkt-lS0fZjOXGxns7Nz_Kqg63z3Q/edit
Elemental Flux: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14BiQj1sEeeEH0Nbyiyf-o0Kg4N5uDM5XwwqeWOJ21dI/edit
Archtype: https://docs.google.com/document/d/11F28Ib8Yj74wtAEBzmZrtWqqmc95I6Cbj7U9S2qOfoE/edit

>> No.38206130

>>38205895
>That recovery mechanic
Why on god's green earth do I want a random mechanic again?

>> No.38206171

>>38206130
muh crusader nostalgia

>> No.38206198

>>38206130
because your playing a game that relies of random dice rolls and sometimes its fun to leave things to chance?

>> No.38206245

>>38205541

I'm going off the assumption that I understood the vitalist's info correctly. Specified self-target powers and powers with the healing subtype may be cast on a member of your collective, right?

Also, I don't know much about what makes something broken or not, but that mesmer sounds fun yet kinda broken. I'ma talk to my DM about it though, thanks for the link!

>> No.38206330

>>38206198
Dice rolls fuck me enough, I don't need a class feature that duplicates that experience.

>> No.38206378

>>38205863

The cavalier is just a guy with a mount.

The Knight had the amazing ability of actually forcing enemies to attack you. No other class can do that.

>> No.38206395

>>38206378
PoW Warder?

>> No.38206421

>>38206395
Technically can't FORCE enemies to fight him, but Armiger's Mark + Defensive Focus does a hell of a good job keeping people from attacking your buddies.

>> No.38206448

>>38206378
>What is Challenge?

>> No.38206453

>>38206421
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/call-out-combat

>> No.38206475

>>38206448
Nothing written about challenge forces them to attack you.

>> No.38206622

>>38206475
I want this so bad.

>> No.38206667

>>38206622
>>38206453
As a standard action, you can make an Intimidate check against a hostile target within 30 feet that can clearly see and hear you. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent’s Hit Dice + its Wisdom modifier. If the target is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent’s Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If you succeed at this check, the target enters a duel with you. The target cannot withdraw from the duel for 1 round + 1 round for every 5 by which the check beat the DC.

>Hostile target
>Cannot withdraw.

>> No.38206886

>>38206667
>Order of the Flame
>Call Out
Shit is there any thing that makes you stronger at least temporarily for each guy you kill?

>> No.38207072

>>38206245
Trust me, the mesmer isn't broken.
>>38206245
>Specified self-target powers and powers with the healing subtype may be cast on a member of your collective, right?
This is the Vitalist text concerning powers:
>If a vitalist power specifies one or more willing targets (or is harmless) and has a range greater than personal, he can manifest this power on a member of his collective regardless of the range of the actual power. All other non-range restrictions still apply. He may also manifest any power with the Network descriptor this way, regardless of their actual ranges or targets. If he is capable of manifesting powers or casting spells from a different class (as is the case for a multiclass vitalist), any compatible spell or power with a range greater than touch can also be used through the collective.

So self-only is no, and the latter is... conditional.

>> No.38207150

>>38206886
Assimilation, but that's a 9th level psion power.

>> No.38207238

>>38207150
Dang the other thing I wanted was a mountless archetype, The only one I saw was the Daring Champion but that seems like more of a swuave dueler archetype than what I want.

>> No.38207337

>>38206886
Deadly Juggernaut, but that's a paladin/inquisitor/cleric personal spell.

>> No.38207341

>>38207238
Huntmaster gets hunting dogs and falcons, Musketeer gets a gun, and Standard bearer swaps his Banner and Mount with each other

>> No.38207491

>>38206395

Warder's good. The same player that enjoyed playing Knight is playing one at the moment. Still low level though so we'll see how it goes.

>> No.38207525

>A juju zombie is an animated corpse of a creature, created to serve as an undead minion, that retains the skills and abilities it possessed in life.

So if I raise a wizard or something as a juju zombie it retains its spellcasting ability or am I mistaken?

>> No.38207563

>>38206886
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dreadful-carnage-combat
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/killing-flourish-combat
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/gory-finish-combat

Three feats that do the exact same thing.
also here
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/chain-challenge

>> No.38207603

>>38207238
you don't have to go Dex with Daring Champion, you could still easily go Str

>> No.38207762

>>38207563
They're all the exact same thing except for free/swift action and weapon focus. Why? Was it just that unmemorable of a feat?

>> No.38207867

>>38207762
Its because paizo is full of idiots who cannot into feat design.

case in point: Sacred Geometry

>> No.38207924

opinions on Sutra Magic?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/sutra-magic

>> No.38207974

>>38207867
God fucking dammit, that was a real feat?

>> No.38208030

>>38205769

Thats a FEAT? Are you shitting me Paizo?

Goddamn delinitaing every action and possiblity in the world that isnt standard/full attack in feats is part of why Im sick of PF.

>> No.38208033

>>38201809
Flexing.

>> No.38208082

>>38206198

>sometimes its fun to leave things to chance?

Yeah, like hitpoints

Sure is fun that my d10HP class feature is something that I have to leave to fucking chance as a fighter. SURE is great having the same HP as the fucking wizard who doesn't have to roll for his spells per level.

I really dont know why they didnt drop/fix that shit in 5th. They had a chance to do the d6+(class mod) and stop fucking over fighers. But apparently we're stockholmed into this bullshit.

>> No.38208102

While obviously this doesn't fix the fundamental problems, what if you
A) limited spell acquisition somehow
and
B) changed the way spell slots work, so you actually have to pick which spells you're going to need today and have a chance of being wrong

>> No.38208247

>>38202419
>Want to be a legendary archer, able to amble through forests like no one's business? Oh look, Slayer, Hunter and Ranger!

That's not Zen Archer.

>> No.38208313

Any reason to play a Warpriest or Oracle over a straight Cleric? Is Cleric still Wizard level with how overpowered they are?

>> No.38208353

>>38201336
What if, at 5th level, you stopped giving wizards higher-level spells? Instead, they just got more 0th-5th level spell slots, maybe including spells from other class lists. Any spells of level 6 and higher would require either dedicated study per spell or acquisition in the course of the adventure. (Read: GM discretion).

>> No.38208439

>>38207974
Yup, it a Feat based on autism, for autists

>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry
and then the sequal
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/calculating-mind

now your wizard can be a literal autist.

>>38208082
>All this entitlement

>> No.38208497

>>38208353
Treating spells more like magic items is an interesting idea. I'd probably make 'Spell Research' a craft-like skill, because fuck if I'm going to pay attention to making sure a wizard gets a balanced spellbook.

>> No.38208515

>>38208439
I found the one I was actually thinking of. Autism the prequel
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/arithmancy

for the full autism trilogy.

>> No.38208549

>>38208515
>>38208439
Not sure how that makes your Wizard an autist but whatever. I do love the idea of an Autistic savant Wizard. Could be hilarious role play.

>> No.38208599

Anon just embrace the caster edition. Play the Arcanist. Love the Arcanist. Become the Arcanist.

Why put forth years of martial training from a 3rd party dojo when you could put that time into mystic mumbo jumbo?

>> No.38208640

>>38208439

>entitlement

Rolling how good your class feature is for the rest of a character's life is goddamn retarded and you know it.

>> No.38208695

>>38208640
You can retrain HP and gain +1 HP permanently, up to your maximum potential HP.
For 30xLevel in GP, and findinging someone higher level than you in your class.

>> No.38208711 [DELETED] 

>>38208640
There's enough ways a wizard can find the spells they need outside of leveling. Rolling might actually make those rules matter.

>> No.38208765

>>38208695
Wow that sounds like a really good rule and not a pile of absolute shit that fucks over non-casters more than it fucks over casters.

>> No.38208803

>>38204560

Tieflings are OP, though. Android is more like ... just a regular race like humans and elves...

>> No.38208808

>>38208695

>Lol silly martials can just pay extra gold to get the full use of their class feature.
>Also casters can do it too

>My constant, exponential spell increase is perfectly fine though.

Seriously, could you imagine the bitching that would come down if you had to flip a coin to see if wizards/clerics got enough spell slots to be effective next level.

Shit's an artifact of a bygone era, and I dont know why we still havnt moved past it.

>> No.38208836

>>38208765
It's something to do in down time I guess? Get someone to punch you for 3 days so you gain +1 HP. 60g at level 2 per HP at level 2 isn't too much to ask. I think there are rules for self-training as well, but that extends the time and therefore the cost.

It's better than nothing at least. I'm so glad our GM just tells us to take 'Half or better' on the dice roll.

>> No.38208849

What if spellcasting required the caster to roll? I feel like one of the strengths of spells is they're dependent on the target failing rolls most of the time, while martials have to stack all the bonuses they can and have it all go to waste on a 1.

>> No.38208859

>>38208599
>mystic mumbo jumbo?

Because I prefer witch.

>> No.38208872

>>38208859
All classes are welcome under the eye of the Arcanist. Even martials. Someone needs to scrub the toilets, and who better to do it than people with high fort saves?

>> No.38208892

>>38208872

The arcanist is truly our greatest ally

>> No.38208893

>>38208859

Go look at all the Wizard spells that Witches don't get.

And in exchange they only get Cure Wounds and Heal, Raise Dead and Resurrection. The latter three are easily obtained by simply picking Samsaran as your race.

>> No.38208898

>>38208030
You've got a valid point. They've been building as much as they can within the framework of 3.5, but that's become limiting and a burden. Hopefully Pathfinder Unchained will fix this, because it bothers me too and I'm a HUGE Paizo fanboy.

>> No.38208935

>>38208836
>It's better than nothing at least.
It's a fucking insult is what it is.

>> No.38208938

>>38208893
Couldn't you just...Craft a magic item to contain those spells for a measly +5DC?

I don't want to be a blue person.

Not that it matters at later level wizardy

>> No.38208946

>>38208898
>Pathfinder Unchained
I too look forward to Paizo nerfing martials and buffing spellcasters.

>> No.38208980

Speaking of Retraining rules...
>New Language

You can spend time to learn an additional language. It takes 20 days of training to gain a bonus language, and these days need not be consecutive. Each language requires a trainer who shares a language with you and knows the language you want to learn, or a book written in a language you know that explains the basics of the language you want to learn.

The new language does not count toward your maximum number of languages (racial languages + bonus languages from Intelligence + Linguistics ranks). You can train this way only a number of times equal to 1 + your Intelligence bonus.

>> No.38208984

>>38208599
>not Become the ARCANEST
>>38208836
It is also completely setting dependent.

How many level 15 bloodragers/rangers/fighters/barbarians/brawlers are running around and want to waste time with you?

>> No.38209003

>>38208030
It's a feat for ANDROIDS. Other races get that for free.

Although that'd be a brilliant bait image if you shooped out the bit about androids and posted it with the right rant.

>> No.38209023

>>38208984
>Training requires spending time with a character who has at least 1 more level in the class you're retraining than your current level in that class. If no trainer is available (such as if you are at the highest level for that class), you still have the option to retrain without a trainer by spending double the time.

For double the gold cost, you too can train yourself!

>> No.38209067

>>38208849
That might help, yeah.

Meanwhile, as long as Paizo's jamming every fucking interesting thing for martials into super finicky feat chains, could you give martials a shitload more feats?

I feel like both nerfing caster and making martials more fun and interesting is the key.

>> No.38209091

>>38208313
Flavor differences aside...

>Oracle
High charisma makes you a better face, better skills, a lot of revelations are better than feats, oracles of life are the best healers in the game, not tied to a deity (DM's can allow clerics to worship concepts though), some people prefer spontaneous casters, and more.

>Warpriests
Better combat potential, easiest way to play a non-LG "paladin", blessings are pretty cool (and are sometimes better than their corresponding domains), archetypes look cool, and more.

>> No.38209114

>>38209067
No no, not nerfing casters.
Bringing martials up to caster level.
If casters can do everything with magic, it should be only fair that martials can do everything with a weapon.
>Mountain in your way? Cut it down with your sword
>Mage spell annoying you? Chop it up with your sword.
>Need to get away quickly? Chop open a new dimension with your sword.
>Trying to get into that dragon's pants? Little sword dancing never hurt anyone.
>Where's north? Swings word
>Discern next of kin? Put that sword in their face.

>> No.38209119

>>38208946
If they do that I'll need to seriously reconsider buying anything from them again. I've been happy with their products, but that would be a strong sign of serious lack of understanding of their own game and what the players want.

>> No.38209120

>>38209067
>could you give martials a shitload more feats?
You could do that, but the problem is, there's not enough good feat to take. There's precious few decent feats, and everything else is varying shades of utter garbage.

You need to boost the power of feats dramatically and give martials more feats.

>> No.38209147

>>38209114
>Fighter got the baker's daughter pregnant...

>> No.38209207

>>38204659

>Words are hard and I can't read

the post
the game
the movie
the disappointment

>> No.38209215

>>38209147
In some towns, surgery fell to the barber because they were the only ones with a blade sharp enough.

Sometimes all you have is fighters.

>> No.38209282

>>38209114
>>38209120
How would you guys do martial feats to make them actually fun?

>> No.38209385

>>38209282

It's less than martials aren't fun.

It's that wizards and other powerful casters outclass them so much that there is no point in playing them.

rollplayers know martials are useless.
roleplayer martials find out very quickly that all they become is a beefcake muscleman in a few levels. Wizards become literal Gods on their own pocket universes.

Nobody is happy.

>> No.38209477

>>38209114
>that feel when people get outraged and start crying weeaboo when you want martials to be hercules-tier badasses at high level
Every fucking time, man.

Because masturbating to your spellbook is so much less terrible, right?

>> No.38209557

>>38209282
>How would you guys do martial feats to make them actually fun?
I'm gonna be the guy that recommends not playing Pathfinder in a Pathfinder thread.

Play Fantasy Craft, or like, Legend, or fuck I don't know, find another system entirely.

Because the act of overhauling PF feats is goddamn insane. You'd have to reach into the giant pit and rewrite most (90%) of it, the workload is staggering.

>> No.38209579

>>38209282
Play a Path of War class. Less Weeaboo, more Gilgamesh/God Kings.

Martials get leadership for free at 7th level. By 10th level they should have their own kingdom. People naturally flock to them due to their heroic deeds.

Wizards get some recognition, but the common folk won't listen to a wizard-king. A wizard is too alien, too eldritch. But a fighter? He's one of us! Our King!

Rogues get their own crime syndicates.
Barbarians can start their own tribe.
A wizard could get a cute apprentice, I suppose.

Caster's may inherit the outer planes, but martials will inherit the material one.

>> No.38209801

>>38209579
To most martials charisma is a dump stat, how/why is someone with 7-8 charisma running and keeping a kingdom.

What is someone with 7-8 charisma doing with groupies? If a barbarian with 7 charisma gets a group a fans for killing a dragon, he is very quickly going to lose them all.

>but the common folk won't listen to a wizard-king
>Mass Charm/Dominate person.
>Summoning succubus to fuck peasants 24/7 >Creating literally infinite amounts of tasty food and wine for everyone to eat
>building houses out of nothing
What's not to like about a benevolent Caster King, they offer so much more than a Martial King ever could.

So why won't peasants listen to a wizard or sorcerer?

Why are people flocking around the fighter with 7-8 charisma and not the sorcerer with 20?

None of these makes the martial fun, it just reminds them of they're inadequacy by dumping more shit on them that they can't really handle.

>> No.38209927

>>38209801
"Our King isn't the most personable fellow, but his heart is in the right place. Last year he slew a dragon that had razed our farms, and we dined on dragon for weeks after!"

You can still be a good leader at 7 Cha. It's less about words at that point, and more about actions.

Who do you think the peasants are going to follow? The man who talks good or the man who gets shit done.

Casters still do everything better, true, but we're trying to throw martials a bone here.

>> No.38210147

>>38209927
>You can still be a good leader at 7 Cha.
I think you could be good at your job, but you can't really manage people with 7 charisma. Not enough/self-confidence/magnetism. People would at the very least, listen to what he has to say. I'm just saying that a character with 7 charisma wouldn't do well in a leadership position, even if the people wanted him there.
>Who do you think the peasants are going to follow? The man who talks good or the man who gets shit done.
The guy who talks good. People are fucking stupid like that.

All that being said, it seems like an interesting start in trying give martials nice things and give them more narrative power.

I think there was a 3pp Knight class that had a feature that was basically:
"As long as you haven't done anything really fucked up, you get free lunch at most towns"

Small, but I like the idea of you're reputation proceeding you to the point people will help you out, even if they don't know you. Having low cha in this situation just means they're a little disappointed you're not as "cool" in person.

>> No.38210149

>>38209801
Wouldn't a wizard be shut off in their own demiplane at that point? Why would they give a shit about generic peasant village X at that point.

>> No.38210618

Anyone played Daughters of Fury? Thinking of picking it up and adapting it for my epic6 home game. Any thoughts on that module?

>> No.38210848

>>38209801
>Mass dominate/charm person
>Summoning a demon to go rampant on the people
>Making people lazy and fat with free food, wine.
>People not learning trade skills because a wizard did it.

You're the reason wizard's aren't trusted. Next thing you're gonna tell me is that necromancy can be trusted.

>> No.38210930

>>38210848
You can trust a metamagiced to hell Enervation to ruin people's day.

>> No.38210950

If anyone is still awake, I'm building a character for an upcoming campaign, and I'm hoping you guys can give me some pointers and/or advice. The build I have so far is Warlord 1/ Brawler (Shield Champion) X. As far as character concept goes, he is kind of a mix between Shovel Knight and Captain America, fights for his friends and against evil etc. I am not concerned with optimization or being extremely powerful, I just want interesting combat abilities or feats to FLEX into. He is pretty equal offensively and defensively, so both options are welcome.

>> No.38211129

>>38210950
Why not just straight Warlord, and use Iron Tortoise/Broken Blade/Golden Lion to throw your shield around like Captain America and punch fools. And use Golden Lion to lead your people to victory.

Brawler is just so...blah.

Iron Tortoise can also protect adjacent allies.

>> No.38211169

>>38211129
Hmm, I will look into it, I really liked the idea of the shield returning non-magically, but I suppose I could budge on that. Plus I've never been able to use some of the style feats, which Brawler seemed the best way to use them when they were useful and not be burdened by them when they are useless, bu I will take your advice into consideration, friend.

>> No.38211259

>>38211169
Iron Tortoise is non magical, so you bounce shields off of people to your hearts content.

>> No.38211394

>>38211259
I can't find any maneuvers that specifically state that the shield comes back to you, can you point me in the right direction?

>> No.38211465

>>38211394
Throwing Shell: First level maneuver
Gives your shield a range increment of 20ft, shield bash damage + 1d6.
If the attacked target is within the first two range increments, then the initiator may catch the shield as a free action and regain use of his shield on his turn.

So anywhere in 40ft will bounce back into your hand if you want it to.

>> No.38211517

>>38211465
Also Ricochet Shell as a 4th level Maneuver, Throwing Shield Cyclone as a 7th level maneuver.

>> No.38211529

>>38211465
That's awesome, I had no idea. Is that in one of the books? I'm currently relying on d20pfsrd until I get a proper job and can afford to purchase some books.

>> No.38211582

Mage hunter DM from last thread, here.

I plan on using armor to DR rules (with some of the dumb bullshit ripped out and Defense=dex+shield+bab)

Do you think Codex Martialis rules would work well in conjunction with path of war and spheres of power or do they not interact well?

Codex Martialis probably handles more 2nd edition style indepth HEMA related things than a steampunk-ish mage hunt really would work with, but I'm intrigued all the same.

Honestly it's coming down to Puresteam, iron kingdoms and dragonmech material VS Codex martialis VS combination.

Steampunk trio means more player reading but more variety of gear.
CM means less variety but it's more player friendly and in depth.
Both means balance and integration issues.

and I have no idea how these interact with path of war and spheres of magic.

Anyone had any experience with any of these systems I'm frankensteining together?

>> No.38211606

>>38211529
It's in The Path of War book. I don't know where to find a copy though -- I have an actual book.

>> No.38211634

>>38211529
https://www.sendspace.com/file/alzf0k

>> No.38211637

>>38211606
No worries, I'll propose the idea to my dm next session, and buy the book soon Thanks for the help!

>> No.38211701

>>38211634
Thanks! (for nothing, I obviously didn't download something you didn't post)

>> No.38211735

>>38211701
>I obviously didn't download something you didn't post
>something you didn't post
>didn't post

>> No.38211798

>>38211735
I was trying to absolve everyone involved of potential guilt, but I agree the wording was confusing or just flat out incorrect.

>> No.38211888

>>38211798
>guilt

>> No.38211953

>>38211888
Haha, you are on point with the reaction images. Thanks for the pdf!

>> No.38211994

Is there a reason to bother with a "build" if I'm playing Path of War?

Like, I want to make a reach-trip fighter, probably with Lore Warden, because it's cool as fuck, but while I love PoW, it seems that the only depth to it is "Pick the maneuvers with the coolest sounding names".

Also, are there any maneuver lists designed for reach?

>> No.38212396

>About to start a game tomorrow
>Somebody starts asking about eidolons
I have never had somebody use these before, and they sound overpowered as fuck.
What am I in for?

>> No.38212445

>>38212396
>What am I in for?
overpowered bullshit. Summoning in general is bullshit, tough meat sponges with more action economy, some abilities or spells, can be better than fighters at some or all parts of combat, free, portable, slaves, no cost if they get left behind/die.

>Allowing easy summoning in games as a GM, not once.

>> No.38212473

>>38212445
Preferred methods for smacking them into the ground then?
Not really sure how to tell somebody "yeah nevermind this entire class is fucking ridiculous"

>> No.38212483

>>38212473
Use your words. "I don't want summoners in my game."

>> No.38212541

Does Racial Heritage allow you to take the other races favored class bonus?
For example if I am a Human with the Racial Heritage bonus of Dwarves do I get Human and Dwarf Favored class bonuses to choose from?

>> No.38212570

>>38211994
Yes, there are good and bad maneuvers for each level and discipline. If you are just going pure Fighter and getting the feats, I reccomend Scarlet Throne which boosts mainly your damage and mobility, or Golden Lion, which is the team support choice. ST runs on Sense Motive, GL on Diplomacy
So, for choices check http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?334608-PF-Leading-the-Battle-A-Guide-to-the-PoW-Warlord for the maneuver's ratings.

>> No.38212785

>>38208353
Give them higher level spell slots they can fill with metamagicked spells (or normal spells if they want). Spells above, say, 4th-5th level just don't exist though.

>> No.38212810

>>38212473

Fight fire with fire: summoning opponents.
They get a challenge worth their mettle and if they win they feel awesome.

>> No.38213149

>>38209282
>How would you guys do martial feats to make them actually fun?

Something I did in one game was turn feat chains into feats that grant you additional benefits when you meet the prerequisites for the next feat in the chain. So if you have weapon focus, for example, at fighter level 4 you automatically gain weapon specialization, then greater weapon focus and greater weapon specialization. Cleave automatically grants you Great Cleave, and so on.

>> No.38213209

>>38213149
>Fighter gets all 'Improved X' for free, so he doesn't provoke AoO when making Combat Maneuvers
>Rogue gets steal for free
A good start.

>> No.38213234

>>38207072

I was referring to this part, actually:

"Medic Powers

The vitalist gains special uses of some of his powers that are unavailable to other characters.

The following powers gain the Network descriptor when manifested by a vitalist: all powers of the [healing] subdiscipline, animal affinity, biofeedback, body of iron, endorphin surge, expansion, oak body, physical acceleration, sustenance, suspend life, timeless body, and vigor."

So something like Mend Body gains the Network descriptor and can be used on a member of the collective?

Sorry, just trying to make sure I understand this 100%.

>> No.38213313

>>38213234
>So something like Mend Body gains the Network descriptor and can be used on a member of the collective?
Oh, yes! Basically, what I posted is the entire rules text on how manifesting through a collective works. What the medic powers section does adds onto it, so...

You can manifest any power with the Network descriptor over the collective regardless of range or targets. Mend Body has a range of personal, with a target of you. Normally, manifesting it means you just target yourself. What the medic powers feature does, is add the [network] descriptor to Mend Body, which then lets you manifest it over the collective to target someone else.

>So something like Mend Body gains the Network descriptor and can be used on a member of the collective?
tl;dr yes

>> No.38213338

>>38213149
I feel as though that if you really want to stick to PF and tweak at the monstrosity that is the feat system, you can probably start by putting a few lesser feats together, like Point Blank Shot and one other ranged-variant feat; at the same time, maybe consider trying to shave down requisites. The feat trees in 3.x are atrocious and do nothing but get in the way of Martial progress rather than expand upon it.
>Spend 5+ feats in a single subject over a course of 5 or more levels to be kinda good at one thing and only one thing.
>get outclassed by Casters in that one thing you spent all your time on and everything else you can't do to begin with.

Additionally/alternatively, you could also give out Weapon Focus to all players for free with all weapons they're proficient with, because Weapon Focus is a waste of a feat. Really, going through all the feats is an endeavor, but I'd implore having some fun with it. Make the feats worth something.

>> No.38213351

>>38213234
Also, no need to be sorry, all of PF is a rules labyrinth, and getting them right could mean all the important difference between unhappiness and fun.

>> No.38213390

>>38213313
>>38213351

Alrighty, thanks a bunch! If it didn't work like that I'd be wondering how a vitalist manages to function. For some reason reading through the mesmer page made me not want to play one, no idea why so I think I'm going to roll one of these the next time I make a character.

>> No.38213444

Are there any feats like Cypher script?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/cypher-script
I'm trying to make a bookish Arcanist, and don't want to overpower our two new people in our group, so I'm selecting sub-par spells as well. Any neat or flavorful spells at lower level that would be neat?

>> No.38213445

>>38213390
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Collective-Healing-Su- is the important thing about vitalists. So it doesn't matter who the power targets, as long as it heals HP(or ability) damage to someone in your collective(including yourself), you can redirect that healing however you want.

>> No.38213460

>>38204746
>>38204719
There was a feat added in People of the Stars that allows Androids to benefit from Morale Bonuses.

>> No.38213499

>>38209119
Gayskull, did you not see the pastebin of changes for the Psychic vs. the changes for the Kineticist? That alone should show a serious lack of understanding in their game.

>> No.38213831

>>38208439
Okay, what the fuck. Not only is that a meh feat that slows down your castingimmensely, how much goddamn time is that gonna make your turn take irl?

>> No.38213835

>>38204518
>he doesn't know about Iron Gods

Art thou a Sodomite?

>> No.38213842

>>38210149
tell that to Razmir. He did both.

>> No.38213854

>>38212473
>>38212483
Summoner isnt that problem. Summoning spell in general is. If you are going to ban Summoner then you should ban all tier 1 too.

>> No.38213872

>>38213831
There is literally an app for that.

>> No.38213930

>>38213831
It should take at the very max 30 seconds, but realistically under 10, assuming you do not have the chart immediately in front of you and are fucking retarded at math. Even then, there is an app for it now.

>> No.38213985

Are there any "Must Have" Feats for a Heavens Oracle? I would like to fill the Controller and Healer role if possible

>> No.38213999

>>38213985
DIVINE PROTECTION

>> No.38214066

>>38213985
Spell Focus Illusion.
Greater Spell Focus Illusion.

If you can get other Illusion spell from Wizard list (Shadow Conjuration for Black Tentacle and Acid Pit and stuff) then Shadow Gambit is good too.

>> No.38214067

>>38213999
Thanks! anything that would help with healing or should i stick to creating cure wands?

>> No.38214097

>>38214067
Stick to wand. In combat healing is inefficient compare to control.

>> No.38214167

>>38214066
I think one of the Archtypes would let me. The Elf one.

>>38214097
Thanks

>> No.38214267

>>38213445

Oh right I forgot about that, thanks!

I feel like the soulthief would be the most beneficial to the group since it can both heal and deal damage... Something else to discuss with my DM!

>> No.38214325

>>38214167
One prestige class (Veil Illusionist) also let you do it.

>> No.38214341

>>38214167
Which means Half-Elf quality for it.
Half-elf is consider to be the best race for Oracle anyway.

>> No.38214850

How do I deal maximum negative levels? I want to drain the life from my enemies as much as possible, preferably at lower level.

>> No.38215222

Anyone here running Iron Gods? What were some unexpected complications or difficulties you ran into?

>> No.38215339

>>38202419
>Want to play a dashing, valiant mounted warrior? Look, Cavalier, Paladin and a variety of Fighter archetypes! Pick one aspect and have none of the others required!
>Want to be a sneaky, cunning warrior who blends subterfuge with strength to devastating effect? Rogue, Stalker and Ninja are your friends! Choose only one!
ect, ect. Now instead of making all of these classes that fill almost the same niche but have to sacrifice parts, why not amalgamate similar classes . You complain about there being few caster classes, that's because the best ones already do everything that you could possibly do. Look at wizard, they make it easier to cast one school, harder to cast two schools, but he still has ACCESS to all of them if he wants to. Why not do the same with martial classes?

>> No.38215733

>>38215222

Shit balance, meh story and a very "distinct" flavor. Distinct to the point were metagaming is a real problem because there is no way in fuck that the characters will know all this alien technology, but a lot of it is real world analogues and standard-fare sci-fi.

Also, timeworn shit and fucking hardness instead of DR. Timeworn, aka here's this cool utility item/gun hope you enjoy only using it 10 times before its worthless. AKA sell this shit and get a ioun stone or other similar thing that WONT disappear in a day of use. We're at lv 9 and have found exactly 2 non-timeworn guns that are worth a damn and a handful of items.

Hardness 10 at level 4? Oh boy what fun. Giant robot boss? Time to bust out that EMP gun right? Wrong. It does 2d6 electricity, which because lol-hardness is halved, then applied to hardness. Enjoy your robot-killing gun that cant actually kill robots.

Also, Im not finding the story terribly engaging, but that could entirely be our GM's fault seeing as I dont have access to the source stuff to judge.

>> No.38216059

>>38215733
The source stuff seems pretty cool looking over it. That part might be DM trouble.

So, to review, you were most frustrated by Characters not reasonably knowing what the fuck shit does but doing it anyway, and weird Hardness-fueled unbalanced/silly/frustrating fights and item finds?

I think I could probably fix that stuff. Definitely the Hardness/weapon/robot fight stuff.

>> No.38216360

>>38216059
Isn't the begginng of Iron Gods, "Have a Power Attacking 2-handed strength based character or eat shit: The adventure."?

>> No.38216443

Should I use leadership to get waifu or heir in Kingmaker?

GM only allows each player to take this feat once, so no infinite cohort...

>> No.38216446

>>38216360
Um, all I can remember are molds, fungus shit, a broken robot, skulks, a blindheim, and SPACE SKELETONS from the beginning.

Hardly requires Power Attack from the looks of it, although I question the wisdom of NOT having a 2-handed Power Attacker at early levels in every party, Anon. That's one of those common wisdom things, isn't it?

>> No.38216458

>>38216443

Anon, this is an easy one. Get a waifu, and create an heir with your waifu.

>> No.38216577

>>38201336
>fighters use resources linearly
>wizards use resources exponentially
Should warriors get bonuses the lower their HP?

>> No.38216658

>>38213338
I've had several DMs run with these rules on feats. I feel they help a fair bit.

http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/

>> No.38216661

>>38212473
Give every major encounter a Banishment spell or ability. Summoner problem solved.

>> No.38216754

>>38216661

>Im not saying I dont want summoners in my game
>Just if you play one every encounter will be purpose built to remove your class abilities.

Yeah, real fun.

Dont be a passive agressive neckbeard, just tell him what you want.

>> No.38216762

>>38216577
Seems like a good idea at first, until you realize that the baseline strategy is to top off your HP between fights. If you get hueg bonuses for low HP, it would prompt builds where you beat yourself to within an inch of your life before a fight starts so you can Goku someone. I'm more of a fan of "battle flow" or something. Every consecutive round of combat in which you attack a foe or are attacked by a foe (specifically enemies), you get a +1 morale (or competence, to not fuck barbs) bonus to attack/damage or AC or saves, up to a maximum bonus of level/2. You can split the bonus any way you desire, but once you set it you can't change it.

So a level 4 fighter at round 1 attacks someone normally. At the start of his next turn he decides he wants +1 to his saves for combat. He moves and takes a total defense action, but he's attacked before his next turn. So at the start of his next turn he decides he wants +1 to attack/damage rolls. Now he has +1 to attack, damage, and saving throws. He attacks this turn, and at the start of his next turn he doesn't gain any bonuses, because he's reached a total bonus of his level/2. On this turn he takes a withdraw action, because things are going badly. Nobody attacks him during this time or takes hostile action against him (like a spell). At the start of his next turn he loses his combat bonuses.

>> No.38216777

>>38216360

Yes, with later being, "have adamantine weapons or eat shit and die"

>> No.38216798

>>38216762
Of course, the problem with this is that it still just adds "MOAR NUMBARS" to martials, instead of giving them more versatility or options. So it doesn't solve any problems, it just adds more linear to the linear classes.

>> No.38217070

>>38212445
Well, shit. I'm taking a summoner cohort because my main character is shit at fighting. Suggestions on how to not overshadow the rest of the party?

I'm planning to do a 2handed great sword smasher build, biped with high strength. I don't really want to use the summon monster feature, strong as it is.

>> No.38217142

>>38216661
>Any Summoner ever
>Not wearing an Eidolon Anchoring Harness
I mean, if you /want/ to bank on them failing 4+Cha mod saves every day, then more power to you.

>>38217070
Make its primary attack mode a pimped-out Bite, and make it Huge with Combat Reflexes.
If you focus on Attacks of Opportunity, then you'll still do something, but you won't overpower anybody.

>> No.38217251

>>38216458
but then I can't use my heir to fight.. until I die..

>> No.38217336

>>38217142
I was just going to give it a Reach weapon or a greatsword and rely on AoOs, yes, mostly because manufactured weapons are great for overcoming DR. I'll have to look into the bite thing, though. I've got a couple spare evolution points.

>> No.38217372

>>38217251
I'm confused; your waifu should also be able to fight, Anon.

Plus you can make the sex and craft an heir.

>> No.38217501

>>38217336
You can't do it well with only a few EPs.
Pick as many as you want of:
>Bite * 2
>Bleed (Bite)
>Improved Damage (Bite)
>Magic Attacks (Bite)
>Pull/Push (Bite)
>Reach (Bite)
>Grab (Bite)
>Constrict (Bite)
>Poison (Bite)
>Trip (Bite)
>Large
>Huge

>> No.38217760

>>38202170
Spell sunder->pounce totem->come and get me barbarian can contribute till level fifteen. Can only contribute damage, but can contribute.

>> No.38217803

>>38213499
I haven't, no. That bad?

>> No.38217812

>>38213499
Link?

>> No.38217817

>>38217760
Plus they've usually got big fat cocks that can satisfy their Full Caster Masters or Mistresses.

>> No.38217819

>>38217760
Spell Sunder is beyond damage though.

>> No.38218222

What if all spell cast times were moved up a step? Standard->full-round, maybe increase quicken spell to +5 level increase. Would that somewhat put casters in the same boat as martials with the "either move or do your good attack option" thing?

>> No.38218344

>>38218222
It's better to move the martials up instead.

>> No.38218559

>>38207603
Anyone know how this works? What are the benefits of going strength as opposed to dex and what feats would you take?

>> No.38218581

>>38218222
>>38218344

There's a problem with the action economy as a whole. Would it help to slow down casting time/limit how often you could cast a turn without a personalized feat? Possibly; Casters can exploit the hell out of the system the instant they gain access to a Quicken Rod. Martials are ultimately also hosed by the action economy since they must between damage or positioning. Which is fuckin' dumb.

>> No.38218592

The system thinks my post is spam for some reason, so I'll try again with a gutted version.

Playing a Nature Fang Druid. Easy access to TWF line thanks to slayer talents. Will use Quarterstaff enhanced with Shillelagh. Need feats because other than TWF at level 1 I have nothing.

I intend to play Barbarian-style while having divine spells to support myself and the party.

>> No.38218629

>>38218592
Before the SLA ruling, with crocodile domain you could qualify for Arcane Trickster and then TWF backstab with Flame Blades. Which are touch attacks.

>> No.38218728

>>38218629

That's kind of assbackwards but interesting. No longer valid however.

Crocodile domain was my intent, yes. Some sneak attack will help.

Will keep flame blades in mind for the more armored foes.

>> No.38218756

>>38218629

How does Crocodile domain grant an arcane spell?

>> No.38218769

>>38218756
It grants the SA needed. You qualify with an SLA from race.

>> No.38218790

>>38218769
Correction: qualified. They changed the FAQ that allowed this a few days ago.

>> No.38219000

>>38217803
>>38217812
Kineticist:
>http://pastebin.com/6E9SU2C6
The changes so far place the class into Tier 5. Compare how they did that to this:

The Psychic, a 9th level caster got the following buffs:
>Added Diplomacy to class skills
>Gained Create Demiplane series (lesser and greater) to spell list
>Phrenic Pool was shifted to start at 1st level instead of 3rd
>Phrenic Amplications was shifted to start at 1st level instead of 3rd
>Additional Phrenic Amplications start at level 3 instead of 7
>Complex Countermeasure makes it harder to identify, dispel or counterspell as well as what it does in the pdf
>Conjured Armor now starts with a +2 or your Wisdom/Cha (what you chose for Phrenic Pool) to AC rather than wait till level 8
>Changed one of the bonus spells added from Detect Thoughts to Silence

The baseline the class had was:
>Pool of 1/2 level + Cha or Wis
>can use pool to increase DC to identify/dispel/counterspell/concentrate after being hit/skill checks required by enemies (ie. perception to find invis)
>can use pool to gain deflection to AC equal to Wis/Cha
>can use pool to gain scaling increase of Will save DC up to +3
>can use pool to affect undead's mind-affecting immunity
>can use two of the affects above if they want
>can use the pool to cast a spell without expending a slot
>gain Disciplines

Disciplines give you abilities like
>increase DC by 1/gain immunity to fear/give bleed damage when using damaging spells
>spells or SLAs used to gain answers restore pool/free mage's magnificent mansion (su)
>gain pool from taking damage/gain lay on hands/gain mercy/daze frighten or sicken if you use a damaging spell

You can undercast (basically you can get Brainfucking Spell VI and are also able to cast its less powerful versions for appropriate spell slots, that way you don't need to know each one and fill up your spells known), and its a stereotypical 9th level caster. IIRC there is even an option to ignore the emotional shit in one of the disciplines.

>> No.38219003

Hey /tg/ I was wondering, is there a class that revolves around dealing damage to enemies to heal allies? Think chloromancers from Rift.

>> No.38219078

>>38219003
Vitalist has an archetype for that.

>> No.38219086

>>38219003
Vitalist with Life Leech archetype.

>> No.38219607

I know you guys probably hate these questions, but what's a really fun build to do? I can't use PoW nor can I use Psionics unfortunately.

>> No.38219636

>>38219607

>playing Pathfinder to have fun

>> No.38219675

>>38219636
Yes, I know, but he insists on using Pathfinder.

>> No.38219686

>>38213460
Really? That owns.

>> No.38219717

>>38219000
Can still just use Dreamscarred stuff.

>> No.38219741

>>38219607

Elven Slayer, Big-Large ManHuge Half-Giant Fighter, and Aegis.

Oh, and probably my favorite: Ulfen Fighter (Viking)

>> No.38219852

>>38219741
Half-Giants aren't allowed either.

Basically I can only use vanilla(?) Pathfinder. For some reason. Slayers look cool though.

>> No.38219894

>>38219852
>vanilla(?) Pathfinder.

Abandon group.

>> No.38219928

So, assume we take a wizard's spell slots from class abilities alone - not from ability scores or any other form of bonus spell slots (but including school specialization slots) - and we give them to a commoner as free virtual gold to spend on a magic item called a "spellbook."

This spellbook item is enchanted with a multiple number of command word trigger SLAs that increases as the commoner levels up, gaining access to new and more powerful SLAs every few levels

The cost of a command word SLA item is caster level * spell level * 1800 / 5/the number of times usable per day... Aka Spell Level * Caster Level * 360

Technically to fully replicate a wizard the caster level would increase at each level, but that would make the math prohibitvely more expensive and for little actual gain - whether your summon monster II is at CL 3 or 15 matters little when you can cast Gate at CL17, after all

With all of that said, here is how much a virtual wizard's spellcasting is worth at each level of experience:

1: 1260
2: 1800
3: 6120
4: 8640
5: 19440
6: 27000
7: 47520
8: 63000
9: 97560
10: 123840
11: 176760
12: 216720
13: 292320
14: 348840
15: 451440
16: 527400
17: 661320
18: 759600
19: 847440
20: 945720

Basically, what we can exrapolate from this is that a wizard's spells are worth close to 1 million gold pieces at level 20.

Next, for a fighter and a wizard to be balanced at level 20, then, a fighter's +10 BAB and feats that he has over a wizard need to be worth 1 million gp

>> No.38219943

>>38219852

If you want a martial play a paladin, barbarian, magus, ranger, inquisitor, or warpriest

>> No.38219978

>>38219852

>Half-Giants
>Not Allowed

They literally have an AP called Giantslayer, it wouldn't be hard to say Half-Giants are a thing.

>> No.38220030

>>38219894
I can't, man, I've been in this group for a long time. We've used Psionics before (like twice and only once did it go badly) and PoW is 'too OP.' I've argued enough already, there's not much I can do. I'm like the sole person who doesn't see the problem with them.

>>38219943
I'll probably end up going Magus.

>> No.38220037

>>38219978

A race from a third party source

I could make a race called "orc" that has wings and laser beam eyes and publish it in a 3rd party book

>> No.38220328

>>38220030
What type of magus would you like?

Cookie cutter DEX Magus? With or without whips? Maybe a familiar-centric Magus who grabs some teamwork feats to flank and AoO the everloving shit out of the opponent?

>> No.38220369

>>38220328
How do you get a familiar as a Magus?

>> No.38220512

>>38220369
One of the Magus Arcana gives a familiar. If you take the Bladebound archetype though, you can't take it.

Hexcrafter is a pretty sweet archetype: it delays Spell Recall and means you never get the Improved version, but in exchange you get a free witch's Hex and can get others via Arcana. Its pretty nifty.

>> No.38220735

>>38220369
>>38220512
Alternatively, you can go full retard, take the Eldritch Scion archetype, and then trade in your bloodline power for a boosted familiar. You are only giving up a fuckload of power for it.

>> No.38220791

>>38220037
A book by Dreamscarred Press, who are pretty much the best 3rd party writers for Pathfinder. There is no reason to dismiss 3rd Party out of hand, it's not like Paizo are that good at anything remotely like balance.

>> No.38220833

>>38220037
Most of the 3rd party material legit enough to get into the SRD is better than the majority of Paizo's material. Not that that says much, mind you.

>> No.38221415

>>38219741
>Elven Slayer

Elaborate.

>> No.38221483

>>38221415

Guy who really, really hates elves

>> No.38221503

>>38201336
Rolling an Oracle. Dual cursed or Spirit guide? Which is better and why?

>> No.38221523

I dig the age of enlightenment art of Pathfinder.

>> No.38221546

>>38221503

Dual Cursed Oracle is solely for building around making your allies reroll everything

>> No.38221635

>>38221483
Is he a dwarf?

>> No.38221790

>>38221546
That sounds really powerful to me. I wasn't aware you could make a whole build out of rerolls.

>> No.38221868

/tg/ i need help, I'm a paladin stuck in a party of CN edgelords "Bad things happened to me so now i hate everything". How do i recover these poor souls?

>> No.38221928

>>38221868
What bad things,why do they hate everything, and how are they edgelords?

>> No.38222034

>>38221868
Weyland it up, Be nice to them and go out of your way to help.

>> No.38222078

>>38221868

Why do I never get into these kinds of groups?

Every time I join a group it's full of great, well-adjusted individuals with characters that have varied, fascinating backgrounds.

All I want to do is, for once, be in a group of edgelords.

>> No.38222154

>>38221928
>Oracle "People discriminated me for my gift, so i burned them
>Rogue "I grew up poor, so now I'm taking my vengeance on this unjust society"
>Sorcerer "I have powers, that means that i'm superior to everyone"

The only nice guy here is the Bard, but he remains neutral in every choice

>> No.38222171

>>38221503
Also, i can't wrap my head around how Arcane enlightenment works for a spirit guide oracle.
The spirit guide says you use your charisma for the hexe's effect, but arcane enlightenment says you need intel to cast the spell and wisdom to affect DCs.

>> No.38222232

>>38222154

How does that make them an edgelord? Anon, you need to provide an in-game example of their edginess before we can give you a good prescription.

Something like, a situation or NPC the edgelords treated in an edgy way.

>> No.38222243

>>38222154

You should stop playing with SJW's.

>> No.38222300

>>38222154
So these guys each have a chip on their shoulder. I get how that can get a little annoying after a while, but this is hardly edgelord level. Maybe you should consider doing something about that Paladin Stick-In-Ass class feature.

>> No.38222336

>>38222232
I think anyone with a backstory that isn't "well adjusted good aligned adventurer that risks his life for alturistic reasons" is considered an edgelord on /tg/ nowadays.

Though the Oracle does sound a little edgy.
The Sorcerer sounds like your average sorcerer and this IS pathfinder so he's kinda right.

I'd try to convince the rogue to give back to the community if he hated growing up so poor, so kids don't have to resort to crime and shit.
>>38222243
What does any of that have to do with social justice?

>> No.38222401

>>38219636
>not being able to have fun while playing pathfinder
git gud

>> No.38222409

>>38222336
>What does any of that have to do with social justice?

Anon is playing a Paladin.

Paladins are *literally* Social Justice Warriors.

>> No.38222442

>>38222409
So your saying he should stop playing with himself?

>> No.38222444

>>38219636

All of my fondest roleplaying moments, and indeed all of my closest tabletop friends, all came from Pathfinder.

I have nothing but good vibes from Pathfinder, and hell I even actually would call Golarion my favorite setting in tabletop fiction (40k doesn't count.)

>> No.38222462

Why do most gms hate Gunslinger
Every group i try joining always has a no on gunslingers.

>> No.38222472

>>38222442

No, I'm saying the other players should start playing with him.

>> No.38222536

>>38222462
Because they foolishly think its OP because thier lie "Touch AC adn B/P damage? Nope!" without realizing that the sheer cost of ammunition and actualy getting firearms is rediculous.

Either that or the whole "Firearmsdon't fit in this setting" excuse, which can be a viable reason depending on the situation

>> No.38222548

>>38222462
Because either somehow blackpowder doesn't fit with their setting, or they think that Gunslingers are OP for some reason. The former would be neat in that they're trying to keep their game together; if the latter, then they're just idiots.

>> No.38222573

>>38222536
Well gunslingers can make their ammunition pretty cheap and quick, but need to carry it all and a kit.

>> No.38222628

>>38222336
>What does any of that have to do with social justice?

>Oracle: waah, i got bullied!
>Rogue: waaah, economic disparity!
>Sorc: waah, i'm an analogy to american war profiteering!

The paladin is the only one with proper sense.

>> No.38222690

>>38222573
Gunslingers are ultimately good at only one thing: putting holes in people. Unless the player runs the Bolt Ace archetype, Gunslingers fail to make for decent snipers due to their firearms abysmal range to be as effective. A limit on ammunition isn't exactly the biggest thing slowing them down; unless your dice hate you, every shot should count.

>> No.38222711

>>38222536

Firearm rules are completely shit and an example of some of the worst rules decisions made by Paizo

>> No.38222756

>>38222628
So referencing out borderline universal/timeless themes in a fantasy game or even mentioning they exist is SJW nonsense?

Also
>Sorc: waah, i'm an analogy to american war profiteering!
How the fuck did you get that out of "I have magic superpowers, FUCK the peasantry!"?

Really curious about that one.
>>38222690
Oh, I'm not saying they're good(though my first character was a gunslinger so they'll always have a special place in my heart), just that ammo isn't a problem.

>> No.38222968

>>38222756

>borderline universal/timeless themes

Oh boy what a narrative you've placed on history.

>How the fuck did you get that out of "I have magic superpowers, FUCK the peasantry!"?

It's an obvious analog to Drone warfare.

>> No.38223060

>>38219928

Hmm, what if we halve the costs (as if the item were a spell completion item) and require spellcasters pass a UMD check every time they want to "cast" a spell, giving them a bonus to UMD checks as a class ability in addition to virtual gold as a class ability

>> No.38223087

Cavalier anon here...

... We just started dueling, and everyone's got magic.

Everyone's using magic and it hurts.

Literally every single character in every single duel, including mine, is using spells, and it *hurts*.

>> No.38223116

>>38223087

Wut

>> No.38223144

>>38223087
Cut a promo about how the league has gone to shit once they started allowing these god damn arcane brats in.

>> No.38223162

>>38222756
>How the fuck did you get that out of "I have magic superpowers, FUCK the peasantry!"?

What kind of nascent magical kingdom has never had this happen before and doesn't have a dedicated group of witch hunters to address it?

>> No.38223192

>>38223060
The solution isn't tearing casters down with more rolls and checks, it's moving martials up.

>> No.38223207

>>38223192

>everyone says this

>they never offer practical results as to how.

Maybe there's a reason the guys who swing swords always have low int.

>> No.38223268

>>38223116

A couple days I asked Pathfinder General for detailed help on making a dashing, noble knight astride his equally noble steed. Very Arthurian, has Perform Oratory, plans on getting a Lion mount/companion at level 7.

I have yet to see a duel where the gladiators weren't using magic. Whether it's using Dimensional fuckery or using the Race Creator to make Succubi, or hell just straight up using Rays of Enfeeblement or other such immobilization/Save or Suck/Die spells.

This is a Gladiatorial Arena where you never see the clash of steel against steel, or big burly people slapping other big burly people until blood is drawn. All we're getting is fighter-wizards having pew pew magic duels with other fighter-wizards until one of them is incapacitated.

>> No.38223292

>>38223192
Ideally, any solution would do both of those things in moderation. Remove campaign-breaking abilities from casters, give martials more versatility.

>> No.38223353

All but a tiny handful of "combat" spells should take a full minute to cast. Casters should under no circumstances be able to end fights more efficiently than martials. If an average martial character's swing downs 1 "minion" enemy or does 1/3 the HP of one "elite" enemy or 1/10 the HP of one "boss" enemy, then spells should have similar effectiveness, until you reach much higher spell levels where martials get iterative full attacks and greater stacking bonuses. You bring the game down to the martials' level; that is how you eliminate swinginess from Pathfinder.

>> No.38223364

>>38223192
>>38223207

>Metahuman Feats:

>Makes martials more powerful by allowing them to add some dice roll to any check they make.
>they can now do immense damage and feats of superhero strength and daring
>NEW CHECK: CTE
>Whenever a character uses a Metahuman feat, Roll their fort save -5. On a roll of 12 or less, permanently lower their Int by 1, or have them roll for a permanent/long lasting condition from a modified Insanity Table,
On a successful roll, add to a pool of "Debilitation points" that can cause certain afflictions a number of times per day.

You can physically do many powerful things, but your brain is still affected by inertia, so doing those things has an immense toll on your mind and body.

>> No.38223371

>>38223192
>>38223207
I have a start. Give them Physical Ability Scaling, and increase action economy by adding more standard, move, and full actions.

>> No.38223413

>>38223192

No, the solution is making a universe where fighters and wizards can do the same things, one is merely better focused on certain things than the other

>> No.38223443

>>38223207
>4+Int skill points should be the minimum for any class
>perception should be a class skill for every class
>unfuck the CMD+CMB system, and combat maneuvers in general. Why would anyone waste their time bullrushing?
>After your BAB hits a certain point, being able to move and full attack should become a thing.
>fix or remove the DR system, it makes any combat style other than "2-handed power attack" not viable.
>make combat feats that are worth a damn, the shit "Mythic" martial can do needs to be the
standard.

>> No.38223460

>>38223371
>and increase action economy by adding more standard, move, and full actions

Wowzers, can someone say "Overpowered?"

Why should you give martials the equivalent of Metamagic feats when that would obviously swing the pendulum towards martial-supremacy?

>> No.38223533

>>38223443
>After your BAB hits a certain point, being able to move and full attack should become a thing.

AC increases per martial level should also be a thing.

Something's very wrong when a knight can't even get close enough to kill a dragon because lol maxed at 25 AC, when that kind of imagery is so iconic to fiction.

>> No.38223535

>>38223364
That is absolutely fucking rubbish.

So your doing permanent damage to yourself to make up for your shitty skill points or a bit of extra damage(the last thing the fighter needs).

>> No.38223538

>>38219000
But kineticist is still good and fun, right?

>> No.38223607

I'm working on building a new character for an upcoming campaign. He's an Fighter class Orc that uses an Earthbreaker made of old computer parts.

Description
>Krognar the Stabberiffic was a feared and respected warlord of the 7th plane, conquering human cities, raping and pillaging small bergs, and generally was pretty boss at leading his massive horde to wealth, power, boobs, and everlasting glory. That is until he choked on a particularly chewy leg of boar at a celebration feast back in his home village and fell over dead. After tumbling through hell for a still undisclosed amount of time, he now works in Asmodeus' finance management department, and to this day curses his highest ranking warmasters for not knowing the Heimlich Maneuver. Though in life Krognar was the perfect leader, making his way through life intimidating, smashing, breaking, and raging his way past all obstacles, once placed in an office environment he discovered his passion for Microsoft Excel, motivating team members at company softball games, over-stapling budget forms, and turning in all of his quarterly estimates early. He now spends his days working as financial adviser to his demon overlord and department chief Sithrack the Consumer. Over the course of 1,000 or so years, Krognar has risen through the ranks of his sector and now possesses the corner office that overlooks the burning hellscape below. With a 5% raise every fiscal year, an extra reinforced leather reclining swivel chair, and quarterly bonuses accompanying a fulfilling and comfortable work environment, Krognar goes to work every day looking forward to the day's challenges and rewards. Sure from time to time he sentimentally remembers back to the days when the simplest joy in life meant nothing more than eviscerating an entire city, but he's become a simple cog in the machine that is the dark lord Satan himself. If only he gave an elf's ass.

Still conceptualizing. What does /tg/ think?

>> No.38223612

>>38223535

You can't train away physical limitations. You'd need magic for that. What sort of magic would be sufficient and how would that not defeat the purpose of making a martial character?

Even a thick-ass lvl 5 int brain cushion would only limit the damage. Shit, as is, every time a martial gets hit they should incur CTE damage. That they can just wade into and out of bloody combat and nearly get killed without any permanent damage except a cool scar is already severely silly and broken.

You can either have magic, have magic with extreme penalties, or have no magic. You can't have both magic and martials and expect a balance.

>> No.38223660

>>38223612

Supernatural or extraordinary abilities have long been established as a thing very separate from magic in myth and legend, anon.

>> No.38223687

>>38219078
>>38219086

Maybe I'm retarded but I'm not sure how life leech does that.

>> No.38223696

>>38223443
Full casters should ALL be 2+int skill points. Martials should be minimum 4+int.

Perception shouldn't even be a skill. Everyone needs it, it's just a skill point tax.

CMB/D is fine against humanoids, but falls apart against monsters because of massive size penalties/bonuses, most monsters having bigger stats than PCs, and generally everything working against players when they want to do cool stuff other than "hit things". Big scary monsters are easier to damage, but harder to trip or steal from or throw sand in their eyes. Which is retarded.

Move + Full attack is bad, because it just increases the damage arms race. Martials getting access to combat maneuvers, demoralize effects, feints etc. as swift actions at high bab... that much I like better.

DR is fixable by having precision circumvent it. Two-handed weapons do more damage, light weapons do less damage but ignore 5 points of DR because they're more precise, one-handed weapons do average damage but ignore 2 points. Or something.

Combat feats sucking I agree with, tho.

>>38223192
Wrong. It just makes everything an even bigger arms race. When you're capable of ending an entire encounter on your first action, you have too much power. Giving everyone that power is bad design.

>> No.38223708

>>38223660
>in myth and legend

Yeah, and so has magic kicking the shit out of everything non-magic.

I was hoping we could have a discussion based on reason, and not anecdote.

>> No.38223718

>>38208893
And at-will uncapped sleep and a bag of other nice spammable buffs, debuffs and save-or-suck and save-or-die abilities. The wizard is more versatile, but the witch is still a nuke in ways a wizard can't be.

That being said, no witch will ever be able to ascend to divinity like wizards can. For starters, no permanent demiplanes.

>> No.38223756

>>38223660

[Citation needed]

Nearly every hero of myth had god's blood or magic items or the favor of god or was just such a dickass bastard they ganked the giant in the back after asking it to fight fair

>> No.38223774

>>38223533

You can't balance a game around fighting dragons though. Those story dragons were retarded combatants, for example.

We'd have to completely rewrite the AC system to prevent a char that can dodge a dragon from not being immune to hits from everything else.

>> No.38223784

>>38223612
And magic should blow your brain to pieces if you make the slightest mistake. What's your point?

>> No.38223810

>>38223708

Hercules was a Sacred Fist, or some sort of divine-blooded human.

Shit, even beowulf was just a badass spear-dane who killed a neckbeard that just wanted to hang out.

>> No.38223814

>>38223460
not immediately, but rather as they level up and gradually increase. Besides, it makes sense thematically since the Martial is getting stronger and more herculean while the Caster uses magic to keep up.

Besides, they'll still loose to Wizard with either prep-time and Initiative. This just gives them the ability to do more than waste a turn on either a standard action or a full-round one. Someone who hones thier bodies to physical perfection should be able to move faster and react better than a nerd in a bathrobe

>> No.38223816

>>38223774

Dragons of myth were only the size of horses anyway

>inb4 its not even a dragon because of its legs

>> No.38223868

>>38223784

Except there's no physical precedence to make that statement, since magic is wholly a construct of someone's imagination while chronic traumatic encephalopathy is not.

I'd be for sanity checks, but everyone decries that it must be possible to make martials better other than by nerfing casters.

>> No.38223953

>>38223816

It depends on the story. The one in beowulf shook the earth as it moved. Shit, beowulf broke his sword when he tried to hit it. Is there a weapon break mechanic vs very high AC or natural armor?

>> No.38224001

>>38223612
>You can't train away physical limitations. You'd need magic for that. What sort of magic would be sufficient and how would that not defeat the purpose of making a martial character?
This is the EXACT kind of thinking that makes martial's shitty. Why is the fighter limited to what normal humans can do?

Why should we expect a 100% normal human to go toe to toe with Lord Agares the Demonic Mind Rapist from the elemental plane of conceptual suffering and win just because he does squats?
>>38223696
>Full casters should ALL be 2+int skill points.
Why?

You have a point about everything else, there needs to be more ways fighters can do things to the enemy that's not HP damage. We also need a reason for fighters to want to do that.


To do that though, you would really need to change the very nature of combat and fighting in Pathfinder. This is an issue that really is prevalent throughout every aspect of the game.

>> No.38224013

>>38223953
He just rolled a nat 1 and his GM was a dick.

>> No.38224057

>>38223868
>Except there's no physical precedence to make that statement, since magic is wholly a construct of someone's imagination while chronic traumatic encephalopathy is not.

Except there's no reason to assume that physics and biology work exactly the same in a world where magic exists.

>> No.38224074

>>38224001

A fighter isn't limited to what normal humans can do if he casts spells

>> No.38224154

>>38224001
The simple solution is that everyone in some way can make use of the "ambient" magic that flows through the air all around us, and those heroes of legend with proper training can do this more easily than others in the form of superhuman feats. Stories of young women suddenly gaining Bull's Strength when their baby is trapped under a carriage or something. It's just that spellcasters can make better use of the magic in the world around them by actually, y'know, casting spells.

As for full caster skill points, I should expand: Wizards are focused on spellcasting study, period. Also they have retarded high int anyways, fuck 'em. Sorcerers and Oracles are more interested in learning about their own specific powers. Witches ditto, and their patron, plus they're int based. Clerics spend their time in prayer and meditation, rather than learning new skills. The only full caster outside of this who anyone gives a shit about is the Druid, and you could MAYBE make an argument for him having 4+int due to his woodsy nature, and needing shit like Knowledge Nature, Survival, Handle Animal and such. But all the other full casters solve their problems with magic; what would they need a varied skillset for?

>You have a point about everything else, there needs to be more ways fighters can do things to the enemy that's not HP damage. We also need a reason for fighters to want to do that.

On the contrary. Combat should be less about "I cast a spell/I use a maneuver that completely disables my enemy from fighting back". Combat should be solved through dealing HP damage, and NOT ending encounters with a single wave of your hand.

>> No.38224230

>>38224154

>HP damage

No, that's terrible

>> No.38224316

>>38224154
That is to say, LETHAL combat should be solved that way. Or disabling in a lengthy way, such as wrestling with someone until you can pin them. Spells that disable should instead hamper an enemy. Standing on a greased area shouldn't trip you, but reduce your AC by 2 and causing you to fall prone if you make an attack from that area and failing a reflex save. Getting glitterdusted should give all enemies concealment from you, reflex save negates (not will, why will? It's conjured dust that gets in your eyes. JFC). All these "save or lose" spells should be toned down, harshly if necessary. Spellcasters should get more chances to do stuff, but have the stuff they do be a LOT less effective. Unless they're built for pure damage, in which case they should be on par with martials.

>>38224230
Why? Because it's bad in the current system, where you can cast a level 1 spell and effectively kill your enemy 50% of the time? Or because you don't like the idea of the iconic fantasy battle with a gang of orcs, cleaving them down left and right.

>> No.38224349

>>38224230
What's the point of HP, if nobody cares about it, and nobody ever bothers to touch it?

>> No.38224366

>>38223607
What level are we looking at? A bit too epic for first, but nice for later.

Go Bloodrager/Scarred witchdoctor to show how he went from A->B and still have a pretty good build going on.

>> No.38224417

>>38224316

Because two people beating each other with nerf bats over and over again until an arbitrary point when one loses is boring

>> No.38224476

>>38224001
>Why is the fighter limited to what normal humans can do?

Because they are a normal human.

>Why should we expect a 100% normal human to go toe to toe with Lord Agares the Demonic Mind Rapist from the elemental plane of conceptual suffering and win just because he does squats?

I wouldn't, personally.

>> No.38224517

>>38224417
Okay, then eliminate HP as a stat. Nobody wants to hit other people anyways, since it's boring. So have a simpler way of deciding if your ass gets knocked out then. 1 hit for enemy mooks. 3 hits for the elites. halfBABs take 1 hit+con mod, clericBABs take 2 hits+con, fullBABs take 3 hits+con. Bosses take 10.

This is better now, right? Or just make it 1-2 hits for everyone. Because nobody wants to be bored by having to hit people in melee.

>> No.38224531

>>38224057

Yeah if you ignore all the mechanics and aspects of the game that root it in reality whenever possible. Are you saying that people don't have internal organs in pathfinder? Are you saying that internal organs are not affected by inertia? Why? If they're not affected by inertia, how do people move?

>> No.38224550

>>38224476
>Because they are a normal human.

Bullshit. Any character beyond level 5 and PCs even before that are straight-up superhuman by realistic standards.

>> No.38224581

>>38224517

Maybe

Generally combat takes too long and receives an overly large amount of focus in the rules for how uninteresting it is - there's not much in the way of choice a typical fighter can make in battle aside from attack vs AC and damage vs HP

>> No.38224603

>>38224476
They are very clearly not normal humans. A level 1 commoner is a normal human. A level 1 fighter is a well-trained normal human with a wicked build.

A level 15 fighter is someone who has gone beyond human limits. He has well over a hundred hit points. He can easily survive a 200 foot fall, then get up and dust himself off with no worries. He can survive a massive hit from a fire giant which would kill several normal humans. He is capable of delivering deadly blows that sever an ogre's head from its shoulders with casual ease.

>> No.38224644

>>38224603

>a level 1 commoner is a normal human

normal humans don't get mauled to death by housecats

>> No.38224698

>>38224644
Normal housecats never attack normal humans. At worst they deal a scratch of 1 nonlethal damage to ward the commoner away.

Have you ever in real life ever HEARD of a person locked in mortal combat with a housecat, where both intended to kill the other?

>> No.38224801

>>38224698
Anyone got the screencap about some anon who came home to find a burglar that had been mauled by his housecat?

>> No.38224866

>>38224801
Housecat chained intimidates using 3.5 rules to make the burglar frightened, then abused the status condition. The burglar's morale entry stated that he doesn't fight back and only tries to flee combat. Still not Cat vs Commoner grudgematch material.

>> No.38224933

>>38224550

Cite examples.

>> No.38224971

>>38224603
>A level 15 fighter is someone who has gone beyond human limits. He has well over a hundred hit points. He can easily survive a 200 foot fall, then get up and dust himself off with no worries. He can survive a massive hit from a fire giant which would kill several normal humans. He is capable of delivering deadly blows that sever an ogre's head from its shoulders with casual ease.

The wizard can't do those things without a spell he prepared that day, and even then only as many times as he prepared it.

Sounds balanced to me. What other situations do you need to be effective in?

>> No.38225043

>>38223364
>On a roll of 12 or less, permanently lower their Int by 1
That makes absolutely no sense.

>doing physical actions makes you permanently retarded

I can see it maybe working as a temporary affliction, but what does a martial need Int for most of the time?

>>38223460
Adding more standard/full actions would benefit casters too, once they hit a certain point.

The problem is that it could end encounters in one turn if shit like AC/HP isn't brought into account.

>lose init due to unlucky roll
>dragon (or whatever strong enemy) moves and makes a full attack with all claws, fangs, etc
>instagib

>> No.38225108

>>38225043

Maybe dragons should be able to instagib you

If you want to fight a dragon you need to surround it and drop a cage on it and poke holes into it with long sticks

>> No.38225589

>>38225043
When I said adding actions I meant just for Martials. see>>38223814

>>38224971
Actual combat. a same level wizard can fight like a 7th level fighter, Summon Angels that can fight instead, Create an extraplanor mansion, see the future, lock martials behind a wall of telekinetic force, Create clones, control the weather, Transform into a dragon, reverse reality, and Wish stuff into existence. and thats just the 7th level spells, they got a whole managerie of equally bullcrap stuff both in lower levels and higher ones.

Plus as a caster you're the one that makes the Magic loot, which fighters are dependent on.

6th spell stuff you can do: Turn into a Fighter, Trap people in tarpits, petrification, create mummies and ghasts, divert damage to some other schmuck, Teleport through shadows, create permanent illusions, create fiery tornadoes, Jedi Forcepalms, brainwash an entire village, get best friends to kill eachother for your amusement, see everything around you perfectly, immobilize people with energy chains, Summon demons to fight for you, become invulnerable, create a magical defense system for your house complete with alarms and magic guards.

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera

just look at the spell lists and you'll see that, for the most part, that fighters can't really do anything that soak a few hits on the off chance the wizard failed initiative.

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