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File: 1.91 MB, 1410x2448, Ed-Greenwood-at-Gen-Con.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
37766823 No.37766823 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

What are your honest thoughts on Ed?

Was he a legitimately innovative mind who made great strides for D&D or is he just a lunatic hack who had something easily marketable in hand at the right place and the right time?

>> No.37766832

>>37766823

The hack one

>> No.37766904

>>37766823
He began writing Forgotten Realms at 15, and later turned it from boyhood fantasy into Dungeons & Dragons supplements.

Of course he's a hack. I mean, in the days of TSR, he was literally being paid by the word. That's actually the text-book definition of "hack."

But that doesn't make it bad. He's brought decades of entertainment and satisfaction to (still using it correctly) literally millions of players.

He did something really amazing. It wasn't in the writing. It was in the idea-market. It was in the opportunity and capitalization market. But so what? Dude doesn't pretend to be a great author or a great inventor. He's a great publisher. And at that? Damn fine job.

>> No.37766939

>>37766904
>He began writing Forgotten Realms at 15,

he claims it was even earlier, since about 6 years old

the mountain of paperwork he dumped on TSR is all shit he had come up with on his own time even before he was hired

>> No.37766942

>>37766904
Also? Who the fuck wants a 2MB picture of Ed Greenwood? Why would you even download that long enough to upload it?

>> No.37766980

>>37766823

Greenwood is King of the Creepy Neckbeards.
Of all the people involved in D&D, Ed is the most pervy. Like the archetype that the Whizzard was spawned off of.

Yes, if you play with him at a con, you and the other players will, no shit, be introduced to his magical realm.

>> No.37767016

>>37766939
I knew it was "young." 15 was a place-holder of "young." I think he did an amazing job as a publisher. Somehow, folks got it into their heads that, because it's a fantasy world, we're supposed to compare him to Tolkein. We should be comparing him to Carl Bernstein. It wasn't great writing or great stories. It was great hyping. It's a real skill that takes hard work and a lifetime of dedication. And it's totally praiseworthy, as soon as you look at it for the thing it is, and stop trying to compare it to the thing it's not.

>> No.37767035
File: 250 KB, 4059x2167, 1422128357166.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
37767035

Is it true he broke into tears when he first heard the news about 4E FR?

>> No.37767060

>>37767035
>Is it true he broke into tears when he first heard the news about 4E FR?
And you didn't? Speaking of magical worlds...

>> No.37767114

>>37766980
>I want to shit on the face of the greatest hero of my favorite hobby
Now who's in a magical realm?

>> No.37767132
File: 72 KB, 499x499, 1415361311942.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
37767132

>>37767035
I hope he did. I would love to have taken a picture of his fucking face when he found out what happened to Elminster and hang it on my goddamn wall.
Not so fun when it's not YOU'RE the bitch in somebody else's magical realm eh Eddy?

>> No.37767162

>>37767114

Shut up, fanboy. Ed Greenwoof ain't shit.

>>http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/24332235/#q24338682

>At long-ago GenCons I often ran Realms play sessions in which PCs were sent with an urgent message to Alustriel [a stranger to them by all but reputation] through a secret portal that admitted them to the Palace but removed all metal -- weapons and, er, BELT BUCKLES -- and all enchanted materials [items and garments vanished, spells operating on the bodies of the PCs just melted away] in doing so. Stumbling over their own falling clothing but under imperative, overriding orders to get to Alustriel right away (and bearing a pass that would let them do so), the racing PCs were directed to a certain chamber, and burst into it to discover that it was taken up by a vast, shallow bath filled with warm rosewater and naked people making love. SOMEwhere in all of that sliding flesh was Alustriel. Their mission: find her. I loved watching players’ faces, right at that moment.

>> No.37767209

>>37767162
Here's the thing: all your "magical realm" reactions? They were pawned off on you around 2006. The way you think and speak about RPGs? Has nothing to do with anything but the vitriol of current internet culture. Your opinions are a fairly-recent fad. No one is ever gonna care about your "boohoo magical realm 'cuz that's what 4chan thinks!" fads. Greenwood was there 30 years before the phrases you used to describe this shit were ever used by anyone at all. You're the flavor of a particularly shitty-tasting month.

>> No.37767267
File: 487 KB, 1559x914, tropic_thunder_-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
37767267

>>37767209

Nigga, are you gonna seriously claim being a creepy asshole DM was okay before people invented a label for it?

>> No.37767324

>>37767267
I'm seriously claiming you see everything through a momentary, immediate lens of what's happening in your life at this exact moment, without any appreciation of context beyond how far away your bag of cheetos are. Have another "magical realm" or "that guy" thread about how the internet culture that'll exist for the next fifteen minutes should interpret everything possible.

>> No.37767456

>>37767324

That's a very roundabout way to say "Shut up, my hero can't be creepy."

>> No.37767473

>>37767324
>Doing things for no purpose other than to make people uncomfortable
>A good thing

>> No.37767522

>>37767324
Dude, Greenwood's stuff was creepy when I was in high school and it's creepy now.

The inclusion of 'adult' topics of sex and such that are under-discussed in modern American society is not problematic in and of itself, but Greenwood's work often reads as though written one-handed.

>> No.37767538

>>37767473

And a bunch of strangers at a convention, no less.
"Here, I'm just gonna railroad all you total strangers through a guided tour of my fetishes now." Who the fuck does that?

>> No.37767558

>>37767267
Sir as a nigger I find your post offensive.

>> No.37767594

>>37767558

Write a letter to your congressman, then.

>> No.37767660

>>37767594
I'm doing so as we correspond.

>> No.37767724

>>37767267
My Dad told me a story about an arc one of his DMs ran for him and his friends when they were fifteen or sixteen.

An all-female village full of succubi that ate the souls of passing travellers through fucking them to death. There were too many to directly engage.

The solution?

Go on a massive quest to gather rare, hard to find reagents to take to a famous alchemist to make a potion that would both protect their souls and cause their jizz to burn like acid to succubi.

And then the DM had them slowly but surely, over the course of a few days, fuck the entire town of succubi to death.

This was back in either 1E or 2E, and my Dad implied that this wasn't the worst thing his DM had come up with.

>> No.37770039

>>37766823
Little from column A, little from column B.

A lot of his success does have to do with timing; AD&D 1e had no default setting, and his looked eminently marketable. But you can't discount the work he put into it; dude made a lot of contributions to Dragon magazine, and when TSR asked if he had anything substantial on that home setting he kept mentioning, he had a 1500 page manuscript ready to send them. With all the 't's written in by hand, mind you, because the typewriter was broken. Greenwood put more effort into his campaign setting than I have into possibly anything I've ever done; kinda hard to begrudge him his success.

As for how creative it is...Well, I've been led to believe the Realms weren't as generic as they are now when he made them; that a lot of the unique flavor got lost when TSR incorporated practically every other product line they had into the Realms to try to drum up interest.

>> No.37770095

>>37767162
Meh. That's kind of tame, really. "Consenting adults having group sex" isn't really on the level of tje futanari anal vore gang rape that usually gets labeled Magical Realm.

I'd roll my eyes, but I wouldn't get the vapors because the DM described something lewd.

>> No.37770123

>>37767558
Yeah, tell you what, I'm offensive and I find your post nigger.

>> No.37770165

>>37770039
People think the Realms are generic because they never leave either the Dales, Cormyr, or the Sword Coast area.

>> No.37770186

>>37770039
I used to think it was bullshit about Realms ever not being generic, then I read 1e Realms.
It's almost bizarre how much the early Realms feels like a completely different world from later Realms products, and it has me wondering how TSR could think "We have a bunch of random shit on !!medieval europe, let's force that into this fantasy setting instead of keeping to its spirit."
Even advertising 1e Realms sounds a lot better when you describe it as "What if the Greeks and the various groups around them survived long enough to reach gunpowder/printing-press tech?"

But that's what TSR stood for, slowly destroying everything good they had, whether it be not allowing settings to develop independently from each other or forcing book writers to focus on boring NPCs that they don't want to write for.

>> No.37770266

>>37770186
Well letting a sjw lesbian who hates men and people who play RPGs run your company will do that

>> No.37770429

>>37766904
>Of course he's a hack. I mean, in the days of TSR, he was literally being paid by the word. That's actually the text-book definition of "hack."
Newsflash: EVERY GAMING WRITER EVER was/is/will be paid X-cents-per-word - it's an industry-standard practice, has been forever, probably will be forever.

>> No.37770560

>>37767724
I'm pretty sure I've read a porn comic with a similar plot, although the village was a convent of nuns who had been corrupted by Satan.

>> No.37770617

>>37767035
Almost. He almost did.
Salvador was with him at the time. Good old Drizztman pretty much snapped his suspenders, cracked his knuckles, and right away started outlining what to do when it blew up in Wizard's face with Ed.

>> No.37770643

If Ed Greenwood was a young neckbeard still running games today, he would have shown up in a That GM thread.

He was in the right place at the right time.

RIP in peace tho.

>> No.37770663

>>37770617
I actually sort of like Salvatore now after I heard that he regrets creating Drizz.

>> No.37770681

>>37770643
Source? Because during the launch of 4e FR Greenwood was writing for them, the stuff on returned abeir was in his notes, and he kept writing on dragon magazine.

>> No.37770691

>>37770663
It's funny that all of the prominent Realms authors were more or less forced into writing characters they would have preferred to make as background characters.

>> No.37770697

>>37767538
>consenting adults having sex
>fetish
Anyway it doesn't sound like it was a case of "time to show my players my fetish, I hope they like it and roleplay it with me" but more like "time to put the players in an uncomfortable situation and revel in their suffering" which is far less creepy.

>> No.37770742

>>37770663
He never wanted to in the first place!

Wulfgar was the main, but he was forced to use the Drow.

To be fair, I never disliked him. Frankly? He did it all right. The biggest reason, I feel, that so many people hate Drizzt isn't due to the character HIMSELF.

It's the massive floods of copy-cats after. The character himself is neat and different for entry-level fantasy.

>> No.37770757

>>37770742
I don't mind these characters showing up as long as I can murder them and take their stuff.

>> No.37770772

>>37770757
Try to not cut yourself.

>> No.37770815

>>37770691
>forced
Meanwhile Salvatore is rolling in our cash.

>> No.37770898

>>37770681
An interview with Salvatore where he discusses FR going into 5e and the current state of affairs in the Realms. He explains the meeting where he and Greenwood were told 'This is the Realms we're changing it into, these are the big changes we want to see, you two are going to head it to make sure it sells' He mentions that both his input and Ed's input was ignored because the marketing team had already decided what would sell and what wouldn't.

As to Ed's writing and notes, if you read his stuff on Candlekeep you quickly learn three big things.
Firstly, Ed, no matter how much he disagrees with another writer, absolutely refuses to retcon shit or openly disapprove of it further than saying "That wouldn't happen in my home setting, but this isn't my home setting."
Secondly, his notes are questionable considering a lot of his random notes and asides that he never finished were declared property of TSR/WotC due to shit contracts, so he can't talk about them without risking getting his pants sued off. Whenever WotC claims to use his notes it's impossible to tell whether it's something he actually wrote to completion, or something that was just claimed so they could use it later without risk of him writing it off in some fashion as he developed the idea further.
Thirdly, Ed loves the Realms to the point that he could never stop writing ideas for it, even if he doesn't like where it's going he'd rather work on his setting than leave it to hang out and dry.

>> No.37770951

>>37766823

Partial agreement with all of these:
>>37766904
>>37766980
>>37770039
He IS by definition a hack, and it's totally impossible at this point to deny that he's the Whizzard King. But, he ALSO did all that really detailed work on his own, and then for TSR, and a lot of people thought it was magical stuff. And it absolutely did get genericized by TSR mashing shit in there when it started to become popular. I remember being a kid and thinking the Volo Guides and such were really great things, not for gaming, just as reading material. All that detail, man.

Really, the way I think of Greenwood is as a less intelligent, band-tee nerd version of M.A.R. Barker. They'd both been making their shit since early childhood, but Barker was just of a different caliber, mind-wise.

At the same time, I'm pretty sure that's exactly why the Realms became super-popular while nobody knows about Tekumel. It's just too hard to really get.

>> No.37770980
File: 291 KB, 619x406, 1422762971206.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
37770980

>>37770772
I wear leather gloves and a trenchcoat for protection.

>> No.37771035

>>37770429
Not the guy you're responding to, but the point he was making is that hack work is not automatically bad work, it's just a business model. He already understands your point.

>> No.37771039

>>37770951
>I remember being a kid and thinking the Volo Guides and such were really great things, not for gaming, just as reading material. All that detail, man.
As a kid and even now as an adult, I find most FR novels shit, but the amount of story and detail you get out of the Volo's Guides and the old FR books that were written from the perspectives of different characters was utterly amazing.

>> No.37771135

>>37770815
>Implying I buy Drizzt novels.
Bitch please. I explicitly avoid any FR novel in the "Legend of Drizz't" series.

But yes; Salvatore came up with Drizz't because his publisher told him he had to come up with a replacement sidekick for Wulfgar. He made up and pitched the character concept in an instant.

His agent was like "Dark Elf", really? And his response was: "Don't worry, it'll work out, he's not going to be the maincharacter, he's just going to be a secondary character."

Then after the original trilogy, Drizz't was so popular that they hired Salvatore to make him a Drizz't backstory trilogy, and his popularity grew from there.

>> No.37771143

>>37771135
Elaine Cunningham FR fiction is best FR fiction.

>> No.37771159

>>37770898
Can you link the article? I'd like to read that.

>> No.37771215

>>37770681
Greenwood didn't take off after they mangled the setting, he decided to weather it in hopes of doing damage control.

The backlash to the 4e realms was massive, especially by the existing realms fans. WotC got a lot of "We'll stop boycotting you when you undo these changes, and put Greenwood & Salvatore in charge; because clearly you can't be trusted to handle the setting yourselves."

>> No.37771246

>>37766980
What kind of magical realm? Examples?

>> No.37771274

>here is Elminster
>here is a lady that he fucked since she was a child
>Here is Elminster in a wiz- comic-con-pax-whatever
>Here are a lot of furries and strange people that he fucked
>Then Elminster is challenged to see who make the biggest fireball.
>Elminster explodes a mountain
>Then hops through at least 10 different dimensions, because.
>Oh noes out of his closet a lich
>this broad destroys a macguffin and no more lich
>then they fuck as it was announced from the begning.

it was such a disappointement when i finally got to read his stuff.

>> No.37771302

>>37771215
To the point where the changes are mostly being flat out ret-conned now in 5e.

We got some people that flail and squeel about how it's Mearls hating 4e, but no, seriously, the changes are JUST. THAT. HATED.

>> No.37771329

>>37766823
Greenwood had good ideas for a setting; and has played one of the most important parts of directing TSR/WotC with the setting.
TSR shoehorned all kinds of other shit into that same setting, making it more and more kitchen-sink.

I like most of the D&D supplements he's had a hand in.

Those things said; I don't think he's a good GM. He's cool with using GMPCs to bail out his PCs, and he inserts all sorts of lewd content that would make many players highly uncomfortable.

And I've only read two of his novels, both Elminster-based. Didn't care for those.

So:
>Setting Direction?
Excellent.
>Sourcebook Design?
Great.
>Novel Author?
Meh.
>GM
No thank you.

>> No.37771367

>>37771246
Never mind.

At least it isn't gay furry sex change shit

>> No.37771368

>>37771274
Yeah, Elminster is not particularly good as a character. IMO Elminster & Greenwood's novel writing is not the reason to like Greenwood.

Manshoon is pretty cool as a villain though.

>> No.37771421

>>37771302
What were the changes in 4e? What are the changes for 5e?

I stopped looking after 2e.

>> No.37771458
File: 111 KB, 600x1417, edonsex.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
37771458

Look up his response to the innocent question of "What is sex like in the realms?" It's hilarious.

Pic related.

>> No.37771516

>>37771421
Ok, ok. You see the realms? BLOW UP EVERYTHING. Kill almost everyone. Also all elves are edrian now. And they all get on. Yes, even the drow.

Also Spellplauge.

>> No.37771532

>>37771516
>Spellplauge

Please use trigger warnings when mentioning this. Thank you.

>> No.37771551

>>37771516
>>Spellplauge.

What a plague of misspelled words? Doesn't seem so bad.

>> No.37771621

>>37771532
I tried to help by misspelling it. I'm so, so sorry.

>> No.37771629

>>37771421
Ah, lets see.

3e was a fluid continuation of 2e. A couple of the iconic 3e events:
- One of the major Netherese flying-cities returned to Toril from the plane of shadow (where it went to avoid destruction).
- An army of elves fought off an invading force and reclaimed Myth Drannor, and is mopping up the demons and rebuilding a kingdom there.
4e:
Mystra is killed at the end of 3e, and magic goes wonky. The weave ceases to exist. The shades are fine, since they're not using the weave for magic.
Several countries are blown up over the next 10-15 years.
Timeskip ahead 110 years:
sun/moon elves have turned into a 4e clusterfuck called eladrin, which are teleporting fey (yes, I know eladrin were the outsiders that serve the gods; not anymore, those have been retonned as eladrin elves with PrCs). Green/wood elves are the only "elves" to remain elves.
the continents have been rearranged; as parts from "the other half of the world, abeir" have returned to toril, and some cities appeared in the sky and fell, crushing existing locales. From returned "abeir", "Dragonborn" pour out. Dragonborn are mammalian humanoids with dragon heads and breath weapons.
Thay is mostly wiped out and filled with undead.
Halruaa blew up and there's a big crater where it used to be, which leads to the underdark. IIRC Chult blew up too.
Several very different gods were revealed to have been the same guy all along, whilst others personalities totally change and they act irrationally getting killed, and many more are ham-fistedly written out of existence.
5e) Many of 4e's changes are being undone, supposedly; and a lot of the 4e retcons are being ignored as though they never happened. FR is the default setting for 5e. We have little information as to what it is going to be, beyond a list of races and deities provided in the 5e PHB.

>> No.37771763

>>37771629
I can understand why people were upset about 4e.

>> No.37771873

>>37771551
Magic stopped working because what's her name died again.

>> No.37771913

>>37771763
Yeah. It was explicitly "Not Forgotten Realms" + "Slap in the Face to anyone who likes Forgotten Realms."

Incidentally, the people it was most popular amongst were those who didn't get the realms, or didn't like them, beforehand; and even then, it was mostly greeted by those people with a "Meh".

Many of the novel characters were still around and getting new novels (elves and wizards and such), waterdeep & neverwinter survived; but if you actually liked the setting? Too bad.

>>37771629
4e) Oh, and Tieflings were retconned into a group of humans transformed by a pact with demons, and Tieflings are physically all the same now.

5e D&D uses 3e's core mechanic, 2e's number scaling, and has almost no circumstance bonuses. It's also ditched 3e's granular skill system in favor of level based skill bonuses, like 4e had.

It's mechanically unoffensive, but I didn't like it enough that it by itself is enough to make me shell out money for it, or have plans to play it. I would choose it over 2e; but I wouldn't choose it over FantasyCraft (for crunchy D&D style adventure fantasy), or even Pathfinder(for ridiculous magical power shenanigans). So for me, my interest in 5e hinges 100% on what they do with the realms; and the 5e FRCS isn't out yet.

I am waiting for the 5e FR book to come out for me to decide whether I will support 5e D&D financially or not.

>> No.37771975

The Realms were the first thing about D&D that sucked.

>Epic actions driven by rockstar NPCs, PCs made to feel like secondary characters along for the ride.

It's the grand-daddy of self indulgent claptrap. Greyhawk and Blackmoor, even Mystara grew organically out of real quality play and those former PCs turned NPCs are generally handled as retired or even dead characters who's adventures in the past only laid the framework for modern adventures starring the PCs.

Greyhawk even has adventures like Vecna Lives that specifically kill off the characters of renown. Even Dragonlance provides ample opportunity for the players to replace the Heroes if they want.

>tl;dr I'd love to line Elminster and Driz'zt up against a wall and shoot them.

>> No.37772214

>>37771975
I think a lot of the people (like yourself) who don't like the forgotten realms really don't get the setting.

It's not a setting where only the PCs surpass level 6. Adventurers are people. Theyre people in dangerous work, who can eventually become quite talented, but they'e not superheroes in relation to the rest of the world. There are large numbers of other high level characters just from novels, and the implication is that there are lots more high level NPCs than those in the novels and sourcebooks.

So yes, your level 8 PCs are not going to save the world. Compared to the level 25 heroes running around, you're not hot shit.

However, what many of the anti-FR people don't seem to get, is It's also not a setting with few threats past CR 6. In addition to the large numbers of high level good NPCs, there are also a large number of high level villains.

That balor your party is facing off against? He's not honestly capable of ending the world by himself. He'll be trying to accumulate power and build an army perhaps. He may rule a faction of some kind, and use that to destroy some small cities.

That's why you're not getting bailed out by various novel characters at every turn. Your party's threats are not even close to the only threats in the world; there are hundreds of others where they came from.

The novel characters are good, but even they have a decent amount of competition for better heroes, and villains.

The scale of the stories you are likely to run in FR are smaller. You'll save your friends, save some towns, maybe defeat an army. You can affect positive change in the world, yes, but you're not the only thing standing between one particular enemy and world domination.

If you want to play as a game where you are a superhero fighting supervillains while surrounded by helpless civilians, this is not that setting.

Lots of us don't want to play in that setting.

>> No.37772237

>>37772214
Rather than the regular marvel universe, with a helpless human majority and a small number of superheroes and supervillains running around, this is more like Age of Apocalypse or House of M, where the mutant population is the majority.

No, not everyone is at the level of magneto, but lots of people are; and even more people are at the level of cyclops and wolverine.

>> No.37773061

>>37767035
never played forgotten realms 4e, what was wrong with it?

>> No.37773333

>>37772214
>Lots of us want to play in a scenario where we're the helpless civilians
Why?

>> No.37773748

>>37773061
All fluff in 4e was run through a wood chipper and reorganized into colored piles for "simplicity".

Imagine the European Union repartitioning into three countries: Slavland, Krautland and Mediterrania.

>> No.37773860

>>37773333
>Look at me strawman~

That's not what he wrote, and you know it.

>> No.37773891

>>37773748
That'd solve so many of our problems at once. At least, assuming the French have to go elsewhere.

>> No.37773964

>>37773891
They're in Medeterania. So is England and Ireland.

>> No.37774015

>>37773860
>Implying he didn't heinously strawman my argument first.

The undeniable unique quality of the Realms is that PCs are not the main characters in the story.

If not getting why people would want to play as a bunch of supporting characters at best, spectators at worst is not getting the realms then I guess it's true don't get the realms.

Even though I'm nearly always the DM, I don't get why people play in systems where the entire story is laid out by a single person. One might as well just read a book (or write one, if you're THAT guy).

>> No.37774040
File: 229 KB, 413x413, 1419996833410.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
37774040

>>37771975
>Meet Elminster the final time in Throne of Bhaal

>He admits you can kick his ass

>> No.37774047
File: 49 KB, 671x609, 1386825495621.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
37774047

>>37773333
I wouldn't go so far as to say "helpless civilians" brotato. I'd go more with the junior varsity team. or even the B to D teams depending on how you scale it.

>>37773891
I have an idea

>> No.37775173

>>37773964
Nah, won't work. That's a temporary solution at best. We need something more final.

>> No.37775649

I'd hate to be the Varsity team from the beginning.

level 6's gonna save the world and all is really unappealing.

Getting to the point the big players have to nod their heads in your direction with respect is a fun goal.

>> No.37775961

>>37774015
>The undeniable unique quality of the Realms is that PCs are not the main characters in the story.
I would argue that they are still the main characters of the story, if the game has them as the party.

They're just not superheroes.

You could have a marvel comic book about reporters without powers (they did) and the main characters could be regular people (they were).

In FR, you grow into your superhero status. That's the endgame, when the party has hit 18+, rather than being superheroes near the beginning.

>Even though I'm nearly always the DM, I don't get why people play in systems where the entire story is laid out by a single person. One might as well just read a book (or write one, if you're THAT guy).
> the entire story is laid out by a single person.
What? I don't follow this logic. So if Elminster exists in my setting, even if my plot has nothing to do with him, the story is pre-scripted and focused on him? Why's that?

>>37775649
This.

In a forgotten realms game (3e scale), level 1 adventurers are nothing special. Level 5 characters are probably on par with experienced guards/rookie cops. Level 8 characters are seasoned soldiers with a couple of campaigns under their belt. Level 12 are your skilled mages. Level 15 are your heroes; and levels 18-23 are the over the top world class types.

Several novel characters start in the level 10-12 range, and are like 14 or 15 by the end of their trilogy.

You don't need to be stronger than all of the good NPCs in the setting for you to have a decent story, or to have an adventure where you're being bailed out by higher level characters all the time. I don't know why you would think that necessary.

It's D&D. You grow into power over twenty levels. What's so shocking about the idea that there are NPCs in the game all over that range? Is it a requirement that you surpass the capabilities of almost all the humanoids in existence early in your adventuring career for you to have fun? Why?

>> No.37776155

>>37774015
He didn't strawman a single fucking thing, you autist. Go get assblasted elsewhere, because you're sperging and it's just fucking embarrassing. You continue to ignore what's being said. Fuck off.

>> No.37776267

>>37775961
>or to have an adventure where you're being bailed out by higher level characters all the time.
Typo. sorry about that.

where you're ~not~ being bailed out by higher level characters all the time.

>> No.37776345

>>37775649
>I'd hate to be the Varsity team from the beginning.
>level 6's gonna save the world and all is really unappealing.
>Getting to the point the big players have to nod their heads in your direction with respect is a fun goal.

I agree.

So you start out as the little guys, and over your adventures you become more and more skilled, and after you've been adventuring long enough, you're hot shit; and you've earned it along the way, surviving the various encounters.

I will admit, 3e/PF's XP scale is probably a little on the steep side by default. But if you give out less XP in 3e, or if you use a slower XP track in pathfinder, you can spend more time working your way up to big damned heroes; or you could do like 5e, and once you get to whatever level range you consider your "sweet spot" you want more focus on, ramp up the XP requirements to level, so that you get more adventures in that level range.

>> No.37776894

>>37774040
>Read old FR books by Greenwood before Elminster became popular
>I would have totally taken out all of those bandits, but you see I had this new scroll case that I wasn't used to so my hands got tangled in the straps that are clearly a design flaw.
>After being taken hostage I sweet talked the bandit leader and had him totally about to let me go, but then some adventurers came in and I decided nnot to ruin their fun by showing that I totally had the situation under control

>Reminder that Volo openly mentions that the bulk of FR work favors Elminster and his friends because canonically Elminster himself edits all Realms lore before it comes to "our" universe.

>> No.37778670

>>37770560
That was just the ending; the soldiers went in with flamethrowers and had their dicks blessed so when the nuns tried to fuck them they got holy jizz.

>> No.37778729

So as someone running a 5E campaign set in the Realms, what's the best sourcebook to read? I'll be running it in the current timeline to the best of my ability.

>> No.37778753

>>37771763
People were more upset with 4e because of the systematic changes than the setting changes. There were some pretty big changes to how the game played that were just too radical - the statement that 4e wasn't D&D is a pretty fair one, on its face, before it gets taken to the usual neckbeard levels of religious extremism that you see in edition wars.

Like, even now, in a 5e thread, if you don't like something, it doesn't actually matter why: you're labeled as a reactionary 4errie because people hate 4e that much.

>> No.37778808

>>37778729
Iunno. They haven't actually released the 5e FR sourcebook yet, it's still on the horizon. I guess read the 3e Campaign Setting book, and just read the fluff and ignore the mechanics?

>> No.37778818

>>37772214
>I think a lot of the people (like yourself) who don't like the forgotten realms really don't get the setting.

Man, just fuck off.

>> No.37778834

>>37778808
That's what I was thinking. I did read some of the AD&D stuff, but obviously 3E is a little more current.

Any chance of a 5E changelog like >>37771629? I know there have already been articles and novels and I think a comic book series.

>> No.37778852

>>37776894
Oh wow.
Now I want a book with the original text crossed out and amatureish text glorifying Elminster replacing it.

>> No.37778866

>>37778834
I really couldn't tell you; I mustly avoid FR because it's just too much continuity to get mired in, at this point. Hope someone else can help you.

>> No.37778896
File: 30 KB, 380x600, Keldorn.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
37778896

I'm not very familiar with FR beyond the Infinity Engine games and NWN2, but why can't you just run a game there like any other setting? Why are the high powered faggots considered so intrusive? Just don't use them?

>> No.37778937

>>37778866
Well for the most part I'm avoiding "specifics": I don't care if Drizzt did something in some novel. It's a campaign setting, not a novel series.

But I would like to know what's where and who's who, and what major events have happened.

I don't get the people complaining about powerful NPCs intervening. Unless my players want to visit Shadowdale or something, I would never say, "Suddenly Elminster pops out and saves the day!"

>> No.37779199

>>37778937
Well, it gets overstated, but it is a problem. Imagine you were playing in a supers setting, and the party were all X-men tier. And the npcs were Phoenix Jean Grey, Superman Prime, Jenny Quantum and The Doctor from the Authority, and they all had Cosmic Cubes and Infinity Gauntlets. If the party winds up solely responsible for fighting off a Skrull invasion that threatens all the Earth, doesn't it kind of beg the question why one of these omnipotent NPCs didn't step in and fix it?

>> No.37779378

>>37779199
I suppose (and I have a respect for comic book authors for dealing with this kind of thing) but I don't get why it's such an issue in kitchen table type games. Sure, Elminster exists in my "version" of the Realms, but he's not my character and he's not relevant to the plot. I wouldn't even know how to write or role-play him, since he's someone else's character. It's not like a published module with a brief description of someone, he's this uber-powerful, horny wizard with all these novels I don't care about. So as far as I'm concerned, he's just there, but he'd never directly intervene unless he was already directly involved.

>> No.37779894

>>37766823
Forgotten Realms only really turned to shit when it became one of the main official settings. It wasn't great when it was just Ed Greenwood but it was basically fine.'

>> No.37780032

>>37778834
I'm the guy who gave the 3e and 4e changelog.

I havent kept up with the novels since 2006 (Pre 4e), and the modules I've seen and 5ePHB reveal very little about the 5e realms. That's why I'm waiting for the 5e FRCS to come out before I get invested in 5e. FR is gonna make or break it for me, and its too soon to tell.

>> No.37780070

>>37778896
For some reason some people can't accept that they even exist without feeling they intrude on their personal plots.

You absolutely can run your games the way you describe. I've been doing it since 2001, without needing to rewrite the setting or any such nonsense.

>> No.37780129
File: 747 KB, 1452x1152, 15a0b632e805ede33df1909578de357c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
37780129

>>37780032
It seems like the actual FRCS will take a while though since it hasn't been announced or anything. Yet there are all these articles and novels about The Sundering. Even the playtest and D&D Next stuff mention it. I especially like Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle:

>As you’re probably aware, the FORGOTTEN REALMS has been with us for a long time, and over the years we’ve seen a lot ofbig events wreak untold havoc on the world, from the Time of Troubles to the Spellplague. The latest über-event is called the Sundering, which, ironically, is as much about restoration as it is about pulling things apart.

Sadly I don't know much, but there is this map from a current book series.

>> No.37780131

>>37780070
The problem is it's hard to understand that, if the world is in danger of blowing up, Elminster isn't going to save it, as he has a vested interest in making sure it doesn't blow up.
Allthough I kinda like the idea up there with elminster just being a sad dude who edits all the stuff that makes it to our world.

>> No.37780150

>>37778896
>>37780070

Yeah I don't understand it myself. It's been a while since I ran a FR game but the last one I played was in Icewind Dale and was basically a recreation of The Thing with doppelgangers, and not once did anyone ask 'why doesn't Drizzt come and reveal who the monster is?' or 'why doesn't Elminster pop up and kill it?'

>> No.37780184

I just realized something.
The Thayan villain in Ravenloft was plotting to kill all the Red Wizards from across the dimensions.
How many red wizards died when the undead took Thay?

>> No.37780195

>>37779199
>If the party winds up solely responsible for fighting off a Skrull invasion that threatens all the Earth, doesn't it kind of beg the question why one of these omnipotent NPCs didn't step in and fix it?

Yes, it would make sense for them to be involved at that point. But perhaps theres more skrulls (or some other threat; or they're off-plane somewhere) that the powerful NPCs are fighting, and therefore they aren't there to save you.

Yes, you're unlikely to singlehandedly save the world. Because if the threat was so small that one of the NPCs can take care of it, it's not a threat to the entire world. It might be a threat to your region of the world, and you might be the biggest guys around.

I don't see why thats a problem.

The X-Men rarely save the world. Typically the Avengers or the Illuminati do that.

If something is a threat to the world, and the X-Men are involved in fighting it, you can bed so is shield, or the avengers, and they team up.

Again, I see this as a plot device, not a problem.

>> No.37780211

>>37780150
Because that isn't a big enough of a deal. If you have something on an independence day scale, that's when you get that problem.

>> No.37780213

>>37766823
He's a pussy, says he has all this material but won't let me use it in my games. 32 page Haunted Halls? Where's all the room detail? Fuck that shit, 96 pages cut where'd they go Ed? Disappeared? Give me the fucking pages.

>> No.37780254

>>37780129
Oh yeah, I've read articles regarding the outcome of the sundering, and while lots of stuff *happens* in the novels, the ramifications and the current state of the world at large are left very vague.

>> No.37780302
File: 67 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
37780302

>>37780131
It's hard to believe that Bioware came up with the secret every DM should utilize if you absolutely need to explain where Elminster or other high power NPCs are during your game:

>Hello brave heroes
>This is your destiny, here's a little advice, can't interfere too much, good-bye

>> No.37780418

>>37780131
But thats my point:

"The world is going to blow up!" is a plot for a large number of 20th-25th level characters who are going to team up to take on the threat.

If the players find out at level 8 'the world will blow up if we don't stop it!' and they can actually stop it? The threat wasn't as big as they thought.

It's like asking why half a dozen marines can't shut singlehandedly shut down all war in the middleeast. Its beyond their capabilities.

It's like how the runaways typically aren't saving the world. Yes, they're superheroes. But they're smalltime, and they're rookies.

>I kinda like the idea up there with elminster just being a sad dude who edits all the stuff that makes it to our world.
I've also seen the "Elminster is just an old man who lives in shadowdale, and he takes credit for all kinds of things other people did, because they dont want the attention, (and he embellishes as well)".

>> No.37780442

>>37780184
Not all, but a lot.
What Thayan wizard in ravenloft?

>> No.37780462

>>37780213
>Shit got cut from the books!
That's on WotC, not Ed. WotC dictates book sizes and decides on formatting and uses its own editors.

>> No.37780518

>>37780442
>What Thayan wizard in ravenloft?
Hazalin or somesuch. He runs the domain of Hazalik (named by him of course), which is basically Thay, except for 2 things
1: he runs it.
2: he is plotting to use dark magic to kill all thayans in every dimension, including himself.

>> No.37780567

>>37780518
This guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azalin_Rex

>> No.37780772

>>37780462
>On the forums Ed talks about writing 500+ pages of something
>Then explains that due to publishing concerns he had to cut it down to just under 200
>Then explains due to editorial concerns it was cut down to 130 pages
>Then due to wotc wanting to devote space to other writer's work only about 40 pages of Greenwood's writing actually makes it in

I really wish he could just publish all of his writing without getting fucked by wotc.

>> No.37780925

>>37780567
Nah, this dude
http://ravenloftrevisited.wikispot.org/Hazlik
He also may or may not be gay depending on what source you're reading. (They can't decide on the gender of the people involved in that love triangle.)

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