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37084276 No.37084276 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Previous Thread:

Don't wanna be an Imperial, don't care for beakies? Not to worry!
We welcome all here,
Xenos Empires, Great Crusade Era Factions, Knight Houses, Titan Legions, Chapter Successors, Imperial Army Regiments, Eldar, Dark Eldar, anything and everything just come in and pitch it to be a part of the setting itself.

With that out of the way, here is our main wiki page.

Fleshing out more about Terra
Figuring out the spread of the Imperial Cult
Merrill apologizing profusely to Alex

>> No.37084510 [SPOILER] 
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Listened to your suggested album. Have you ever heard of Godspeed You Black Emperor by chance?


Still feel really shitty, and sorry. See:>>37060755
>pic related

>Imperial Truth and Lumey
Kinda leery about touching on Lumey, but have an idea: Part of the reason it was prolific in the OU was that it allowed them to control the unwashed masses and spiraled out of control (as I understand it). Could Lumey have made the same mistake? Perhaps he thought allowing it to spread through the proletariat would help keep them content and under control/make them feel safe (obviously while strictly controlling the spread), and it just got out of hand?

By the time he realizes it's out of control, it would be too late to eliminate it without crippling the Imperium.

Maybe the lords and governors still follow the Imperial Truth, and the Ecclesiarchy is set up to both crack down/eliminate chaos worship WHILE using it as a tool to keep the lords/governors in check. Behave or I'll have you tried for Heresy/Treason kind of deal. But with the proletariat behind them, all of a sudden they have a lot of genuine power and authority. Maybe not enough to threaten Lumey, but enough to keep themselves safe from him taking them out of the picture?

>Just spitballing, if it sucks, ignore it.

>> No.37084653

Also, got into a long discussion with one of my bosses about Shakespeare today. And I am an avid fan except for Romeo and Juliet. I still hate that fucking play.

Anyways, they do incorporate several lines from his works into the OU. Specifically, the bit from the St. Crispin's Day Speech from Henry V (Act IV):
"For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother"
I was wondering if we could do that here? Any way to shoehorn the basics of the following somewhere? Or just keep it in the backs of your minds, and if you come across a spot where it would fit, please do so:

O, pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth,
That I am meek and gentle with these butchers!
Thou art the ruins of the noblest man
That ever lived in the tide of times.
Woe to the hand that shed this costly blood!
Over thy wounds now do I prophesy,—
Which, like dumb mouths, do ope their ruby lips,
To beg the voice and utterance of my tongue—
A curse shall light upon the limbs of men;
Domestic fury and fierce civil strife
Shall cumber all the parts of Italy;
Blood and destruction shall be so in use
And dreadful objects so familiar
That mothers shall but smile when they behold
Their infants quarter'd with the hands of war;
All pity choked with custom of fell deeds:
And Caesar's spirit, ranging for revenge,
With Ate by his side come hot from hell,
Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice
Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war;
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
With carrion men, groaning for burial.

>> No.37085545
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>your suggested album.
What did you think?
I can recommend a few others too with similar styles

>Godspeed You Black Emperor
I haven't but I have now...
Very atmospheric and moody. Also quite post-apocalyptic in places/generally in tone.

I like it a lot!

Not a fan myself, but I like the idea of putting a reference or quote in there where we can. I might not like him, but his writing was good.

I've been really busy today, only have like a half hour to be around before I have to leave to meet some friends and old colleagues for drinks.

I have the rest of the week off til sunday, and only some family stuff on the evening of the 2nd to attend. So i'll hopefully crack on with some shit.
If i can clean up and fix the Kids page, I'll start writing the concepts for the Heralds up ready to be posted to the wiki/put it straight on the wiki and edit from there. (probably easier)

I'm also itching to get writing some writefaggotry.
So many stories and mini-scenes I want to add to flesh people out.
Hopefully a bunch of those short POV excerpts like in the codexes and rulebooks/splat books

Also planning on writing most of the Children's page from the perspective of 2 individuals, one loyalist logistician (already on the page) and probably Uriel or someone close to him as the other (for stuff the Imperium should/could never know)

Its a bit different, but I feel it allows me to actually talk about things more freely with the Children, and get accross certain concepts/lay the seeds for conspiracy theories, without just stating/listing shit on the page.

If people chase me up on this so I get it done, it'd be most welcome.
Its one reason I miss Lumey for. Although he was abrasive about it, he did motivate me/herd me to get more shit done

>> No.37085892

>"This is my rifle, this is my gun"

>> No.37086438

Alright, I've read the Elume Elish campaign bit today, and I like it overall. To get to a few more specific thoughts:

Firstly, mark up the commander as Basil Heart, and the force that makes planetfall as the 3rd division. That makes a large force of 25k marines give or take, which should be more than enough to carve through the IA. It also gives good reason for the Lionhearts to be present, as they form the elite core of the 3rd's armored forces and are led by Heart personally.

Secondly, the Lions tend not to field assault squads in a direct combat role. Instead the jump pack troops serve as forward recon with targeters, marking targets for the speeders, whirlwinds and air support to annihilate. They're also a bunch of unhinged adrenaline junkies and raging pyromaniacs, making high-speed maneuvers and danger-close fire missions a regular thing. I imagine several teams would be seeded by air in the IA's wake as they first pushed out after the Lions drop zones, meaning when they retreated they would be driving straight into a pre-sighted and prepared firestorm of missiles and lascannon fire.

Third, for flavor more than anything else, the Lions would give each bastion the chance to surrender before demolishing the defenders. Those who accept are choosing an infinitely worse fate than death, but the offer does tend to get made. The other half of that is that the Lions will take prisoners, and put them to use. Slaves for both labor and pleasure, screaming applique armor for their tanks, even for butchering and eating in fucked up rituals or perverse concoctions. Fortress morale isn't going to be at its highest when the men see their buddies used as living armor on enemy vehicles.

You did do the cat and mouse with the fortresses right, and as I've already said I like what you've got there.

>> No.37087411

For Golgothos.


>> No.37087724
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Dude, it's the internet. Chuck it into the sea of shit and forget it.

>> No.37088984

Hey hey, people of the free nations, it's DJ TZ with your daily bump.

Today's first track goes out to my main man, Uriel; keep doin yah thing, baby. Here's a track that's just as complex and interesting as you.

Keep it where yah got it at Jet Tzet Radio!


>> No.37090521


Excellent, changes are underway.

What about the rest? Was the post-Battle decimation good for you? I'm trying to play up that by this point in the Heresy they are fully screaming Slaaneshi Servants well on the way to total collapse.

>> No.37090669


To add to that, what is the name of a Line Captain of that Chapter/Whatever? Just your ordinary bog standard line captain to make an ultimatum to one of the forts.

>> No.37091332
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It was fantastic. Not as subtle as a lot of atmospheric rock that I've heard in the past, but that's not a bad thing, either. Have a new group to look for in the hipster-ish record stores I frequent.

>Not a fan of Shakespeare
>pic related
Isn't that like, against the law or something over there?

Alright, fair enough. I'ma still feel bad for a while, grown to like this group.

On that note, I will be around, kind of. I have work tonight, so I'll be able to at least bump and keep the thread alive.

>> No.37091686

If you're going for the rank of a battalion commander (1000 marines roughly) I've taken to dubbing them Majors, while Captains are company level, Brigadiers man each brigade, and Field Marshals or Marshals run the division. By all means cook up a name to match the rank when you write things up, just make it suitable british/french in nature.
Post battle decimation is definitely a plus. Bonus points if you nod to the revelry of mythic and horrifying proportions involved in the wanton slaughter. By this late in the Heresy the Lions are all very far fallen.

>> No.37093004

What's good, heretics?

I had a good time reading for Othello, and Macbeth, but I'm not an avid reader. I think we can work something of Macbeth into Nathanog. His regret at rebelling but his need to go along with it anyway and the urging of those he is closest to seems to fit well.

Since you mentioned getting chased up, you should work on this stuff for your page if at all possible. Reminds me I probably need to do something with my Sacred Band, and work on my EZ storytime.

Love it. Golgo, you shout put this on your page.

>> No.37094336

I really shoulda tried to writefag in this earlier....

>> No.37094434


Writefag what?

There's still plenty you could write about if you wish.

>> No.37094723
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Like the anon said, there's plenty to do. You should look at some of the incomplete stuff and see if anything looks good.

>> No.37094923

True, I just work a lot, so it makes it difficult to catch up on ideas that are already very much developed. I just remember seeing this a few days ago, so I figure there's a lot I'd need to read at least that is if I wanted to do the setting any justice.

>> No.37095118

Yes and no. There's some stuff that is very much fleshed out, and some which is mostly empty. If you have any ideas, feel free to jump in, and you can help us as we go, while catching up in your free time. All are welcome, after all.

>> No.37095325
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good to see you back DJ TZ.
I like the song a lot, thanks! Classy and complex, a real good choice
Keep doing your thing man

haha I also don't like the beatles...
They could try and lock me up, but I know too much!
The Queens Corgi's run the government!

>you mentioned getting chased up
Haha I will hopefully work on it in earnest tomorrow.
Keep getting at me about it, until its done though.
And thanks lol

Well i'll always welcome more writefagging and more inclusion for anons.
If you need any help with understanding shit, need clarification or even just a quick rundown, just ask your questions here.
The wiki is also here:
It currently has quite a lot on it, most of which is in a state of flux - it changes and updates every now and then, but the basic concepts should be accessible for most legions.
What sort of story did you have in mind?

If you want to be more involved, take your time, we've been going since the end of August, I'm sure we'll still be going in the weeks/months ahead.

Once again, happy new year gang!
Thanks for sticking around so long, contributing so much, and keeping things ticking over!

>> No.37095432

Happy New Year to you as well, man.

So, is it cool to toss up Tiran's End pt 1 to the writefagging portion of the wiki? I obviously need to change out some names still, and will do that when I get out of work, just checking if it gets the go ahead from the group.

>> No.37095531
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Also, if the Corgis run the government, why isn't everybody happy? I mean, that breed is like the happiest fucking thing on the face of the earth.
>pic related
And the only small breed I could ever own.

>> No.37095583

Happy new year, from the distant past of 2014.

My vote is for yes. By the way, how are you making these pdfs?

>> No.37095657
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Put some thought into it overnight, and I've had some ideas.

Scratch the decimation of the Emtombed, scratch the siege of sepulchra. Replace it with sort of a Dark Angels schism thing.

Cardinals exist long before the heresy, and have a great deal of autonomy. Obitus is the Black Cardinal, charged campaingning on the furthest fronts of the Entombed's forces. He is instrumental in defeating an Ork waagh from the far northern marches, where he learns that the Orks are nigh undefeatable because killing them leaves behind spores who will rise again in a few years time as a new waaagh.

The Heresy is about to break out, Uriel hs been corrupting people to his side for ages and even Hektor is doing it. Spies in the Children inform Uriel and Hektor that Obitus lacked his primarch's loyalty, and could be turned to chaos. Even further, they knew that if Obitus was turned, he could rally a great deal of other cardinals to his side. They sent Johannes Vrach, whose homeworld of Rai was relatively close, to seek out Obitus. Johannes was able to convince Obitus that Nurgle would grant his soldiers immortality. Obitus' ambitions could not allow him to pass up the chance at an army of undead astartes.

>> No.37095741
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So when the Heresy breaks out, Obitus joins them, and brings some Astartes with him. When the Entombed return from Ostium, they find Sepulchra is now firmly in the hands of Obitus, who was tasked with defending it. Golgothos chooses to assault his own fortress monestary. Obitus has risen the dead from the Catacomb, but Golgothos knows the tunnels well, and eventually takes the fortress. Obitus is infuriated to, after having had his forces decimated at Ostium by foul worshippers of Nurgle, he comes home to find his most trusted lieutennant has betrayed him and fallen to nurgle as well.

Golgothos' rage is so great that it passes hot iron and turns into cold steel. He has every traitor marine crucified at the heart of the catacomb, and once their skin has rotted to leather he has their bodies cast in gold and silver, and places them all throughout his flagship, which he names Nurgle's Grave. With the dead outnumbering the living, Golgothos hastens to Terra.

The Entombed become zealous and inquisitorial about purging heresy and treachery from their ranks. This purging of heretics and traitors evolves, over the centuries, into the Imperial Cult, in more or less the same way it does in the canon. The Emperor slowly turns from a leader you should be fiercely loyal to, to a god.

>> No.37095760

>Tirans End
Yeah post it up.
I think its easier to make corrections on the wiki than before anyhow.

>corgis are happiest dog
They are, but they are selfish. Their happiness, not your happiness.
I kid of course

Does this also destroy the Ostium fluff? or not?
It seems like it does
And Ostium is *in*, your guys don't *have* to be there, but you have fluff tied up with it as do other legions - which is something you should consider here.

Why do you want to drop the decimation and the siege?

>> No.37095772

>When the Entombed return from Ostium, they find Sepulchra is now firmly in the hands of Obitus, who was tasked with defending it.

>> No.37095793

I write it up in Openoffice/Word.
In the File menu, there's an Export to PDF option.

That's it.

Not sure I like this as much, but it's your Legion, man.

Alright, I'm off to work shortly, will do that upon my return.

>> No.37095825
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>> No.37095893

>Why do you want to drop the decimation and the siege?
The Decimation, as people have pointed out, just frankly doesn't fit the Emperor's character. Whether it's chaos or Emperor-worship, he's not just going to kill a few guys and leave. Also, the losses of the decimation are invalidated by Ostium, losing their dramatic value.

The siege idea was really just born out of laziness. I had no ideas for the Entombed's presence during the war, so I sat them down and forgot about them. Now they besiege Sepulchra, and can do stuff, possibly even being at Terra or other major battles. Given that they don't last until 40k, I think they should be active during the heresy rather than passive.

>> No.37095967

Hey, I never noticed that...thanks!

Yeah, even with only 10,000 or so, they can spread throughout the galaxy as elite support forces. That might be a vehicle for their version of the Imperial Cult eventually.

>> No.37095968

Open question to the group before I take off, what is Tiran doing after this scene? I feel that he needs to do something, while they're trying to reorganize before heading off, and there needs to still be a huge air of confusion still around, as that's key to Merrill managing to beat them and kill Tiran. But I'm not sure how to convey that. I was thinking of having a council meeting with the SB chapter masters, but not sure otherwise.

Actually, that frees up a bunch of numbers for the IR to assault Terra and finish the fight with the SB with.

>> No.37096093

>Yeah, even with only 10,000 or so, they can spread throughout the galaxy as elite support forces. That might be a vehicle for their version of the Imperial Cult eventually.
Essentially my idea is that the Entombed are so enraged by Obitus' betrayal that they become zealously, violently loyal. During the war and the scouring they purge the shit out of any planet they land on, slaying anyone whose loyalty to the Emperor is even moderately in question. This fierce, dogmatic loyalty, and the fear of speaking out against it, begins wholly compatible with the Imperial Truth, but over the centuries degrades into flat out Emperor worship once the power of the primarchs has faded away.

>> No.37096201

I'm all for this change Golgothos. Makes things much easier to wrap ones brain around.

>> No.37097601

Now that's a good idea.

>> No.37097707


That still does not explain how that cult could grow, spread and thrive to the point where it could come to challenge the Imperial Truth.

>> No.37097717

exactly the same way it does in canon

>> No.37097754


The problem is that in our universe we have as savior of the Imperium someone who is far more of a zealous defender of the Imperial Truth then his canon counterpart. And because of that the High Lords (Who will be following Lumey's example by default) will be far less willing to let any religion based on the Emperor anywhere near the door.
So if the Imperial Faith is to take power, it's not going to come peacefully.

>> No.37097773

Well, maybe Lumey is the problem, not the Entombed.

>> No.37097809


To add to that, in this universe there is a far greater emphasis on the Imperial Truth, as we have access to material that the original writers did not. In the original story, there was no Imperial Truth, and that had no bearing on the story. Since we know better, we have integrated it more then they have in canon. However that makes it much harder then the canon for the Imperial Cult to come into being, because it will have a far greater uphill struggle to get anywhere.

And Lumey isn't here to weigh in.

Last thread I pointed out that the Emtombed spreading this faith would be viewed as them trying to gather power in the same way Hektor did, and that there would be fears of a new Heresy. Given that by this time Golgothos might well be one of the very few Primarchs still around (As I recall he is the last to go missing, in M35, so several millennia after all his brothers have vanished) that would make things worse, as the High Lords might come to think that he is trying to usurp their position, using this religion as his chief weapon.

>> No.37097932


Ok, after doing some reading, you are utterly wrong. It would be nothing like canon.

In canon, the spread was done person to person from dozens of surviving planets scattered all across the Imperium in the wake of the Horus Heresy, with zero imput by any Astartes.

In your version, the spread is orchestrated and masterminded by the Entombed, and the humans who spread it are not doing it because of their belief so much as because of the Entombed beliefs. Also it isn't spreading from all across the Imperium, but from a single geographic (if you can use that term) location, the area around the Eye of Terror. This means it's a lot easier to check and slow the spread of faith, or halt it altogether.

>> No.37097946

>Given that by this time Golgothos might well be one of the very few Primarchs still around (As I recall he is the last to go missing, in M35, so several millennia after all his brothers have vanished
This is an inaccurate understanding. Golgothos goes missing at the Battle of Rai, which is during the scouring/late heresy. He returns in M35, has an epic duel with Johannes while his sons die around him and the Knights Draconian watch from a distance, and then dies, taking Johannes with him.

So, actually, he's possibly the FIRST to disappear.

It seems to me, however, that with the Emperor dead and the Primarchs lost/whatever, the Imperial Truth is going to fade with time. It's the sort of thing that takes actual effort to keep instilled in the populace, so as people start to enforce it less, it will fade away.

The idea in this new context is that the Entombed don't actually spread religion. They simply create an inquisition-like atmosphere on the worlds they assault during the Scouring, as well as on the worlds they control. They uproot perceived treachery, and care very little for evidence or reason. This excessive loyalty leads to an environment of fear, where questioning the Emperor or the Imperium will get you killed. That environment simply evolves, in the very long term, into dogmatic loyalty, and then worship. It's gradual, organic, and without direct blame.

>> No.37098072


The problem is that we've set up the Scouring so that those who are among the strongest supporters of the Imperial Truth are going to be key to it, and that the staunchest rationalist of them all will be the Savior of the Imperium. I'm sure that he would set up systems to keep the Imperial Truth around while he's in power, which would arrest the decline of the Imperial Truth substantially, especially when there won't be an undercurrent across multiple worlds all over the Imperium who are agitating for worship of the Emperor.

The Imperial Faith here is going to have a long, uphill struggle when compared to canon. It's not goinjg to have the same starting advantages, and won;t have the same degree of initial influence. There's not going to be any who follow the Golgothan Cult on Terra for instance, to make the Emperor a Martyr.

So it's either going to take far, far longer to spread, or if it spreads quickly it will invite reprisal. Either way, it's going to be NOTHING like the Canon Ecclesiasty. Which is really good for us, as we are trying to show the massive differences between this canon and OU Canon, and that is one of the largest.

>> No.37098115
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Unequivocably, uncompromisingly, the Imperial Cult needs to end up at the same level as it is in canon. A 40k without absurd religious zealotry isn't an interesting 40k.

The story is what it is. If you don't like it, anon, you can go eat a dick.

>> No.37098163

The problem is that by the scenario you have created, the Imperial Cult CANNOT end up at the same level as it is in canon.

And why does it need to? I've seen that the absurd religious zealotry has been downplayed in recent editions. Why else have the Sisters of Battle been shafted so often? 40k isn't just about the absurd religious zealotry. It's about zealotry in general.

I know the canon inside out, I do know what I am talking about. No need to get all petty when I try to explain the problems inherit in your ideas and what can be done about them.

>> No.37098202

>Why else have the Sisters of Battle been shafted so often?
Because they weren't profitable.

>The problem is that by the scenario you have created, the Imperial Cult CANNOT end up at the same level as it is in canon.
It absolutely can. Lumey isn't around forever. I don't know what the current situation is for what happens to him, but if he doesn't disappear soon after the Heresy, he should. His influence will wane with time, and even if the cult takes longer to get going because of his presence, in TEN THOUSAND YEARS it's going to reach pretty much the same level.

>> No.37098258


Also why should we stick to canon? The canon Ecclesiarchy is basically the corrupt 15th Century Catholic Church turned up to 11. Why not go all Protestant Reformation, and have several competing versions of the Imperial Faith that uneasily co-exist and fight one another? We'd still get the absurd religious zealotry, though it would be directed inwards as well as outwards. Why not go somewhere else with all this? Not feel like we need to ape canon just because?

>> No.37098281

>Why not go somewhere else with all this? Not feel like we need to ape canon just because?
Because all you're doing is being intentionally different just because, and that's not better.

>> No.37098348


I'm not being being intentionally different just because, I'm being intentionally different because that's the scenario you set up, and the scenario that this entire alternate universe has set up. It's the Butterfly Effect.

We have a chance here to show that this is indeed a different Imperium beyond simply changing the Legions that conducted the Great Crusade or the events of the Heresy. We have an option here to make an absolutely massive change that will clearly show that this isn't the 40k that Games Workshop puts out. Why shouldn't we seize it with both arms?

>> No.37098375

>Why shouldn't we seize it with both arms?
Why should we?

>> No.37098414


If you have to ask that, then I have to ask why the hell are you even doing this project? That's the WHOLE POINT. The entire reasoning behind the Hektor Heresy, that we are completely reinventing the 40k canon from the ground up. And yet with a chance to change one massive piece of that and prove that we are up for this, you say we should just leave it be? That's lazy. That's not what this project is about.

At least by my reckoning.

>> No.37098469

>If you have to ask that, then I have to ask why the hell are you even doing this project? That's the WHOLE POINT. The entire reasoning behind the Hektor Heresy, that we are completely reinventing the 40k canon from the ground up.

The whole point is that we had a make your own primarch thread and it snowballed. As far as I'm concerned, unless there's a dramatically good reason for changes, things should stay true to 40k. I, for one, still want the setting to end up as 40k. The Imperial Cult, the Ecclesiarchy, and the general structure of the Imperium in the 41st milennium are fine as-is, and should go unchanged.

>> No.37098519

>Unequivocably, uncompromisingly, the Imperial Cult needs to end up at the same level as it is in canon. A 40k without absurd religious zealotry isn't an interesting 40k.
I agree that it needs to exist but it doesn't need to be 100% copied. That's just dull and creatively bankrupt.

>> No.37098558

>I agree that it needs to exist but it doesn't need to be 100% copied. That's just dull and creatively bankrupt.
I honestly don't think an Imperium of fractured, rival sects is somehow better than existing canon. It's not at all creatively bankrupt to say "that's fine, we don't need to change that."

>> No.37098664

Well, I agree there in a sense. It doesn't need to bickering patchwork a hairs breadth away from civil war at any moment.

I do think that it would be possible for there to be a gradient here. We just need to sit down and figure it out.

>> No.37098705

>We just need to sit down and figure it out.
Why? What on earth is gained by changing the Imperium from catholic to protestant?

ALL it is is change for change's sake. It's not organic or meaningful, it's literally just "I want it to be different."

>> No.37098742

The thing is Golgothos you all have written yourself into a corner where Catholicism isn't something that could come about organically. Right now the only way it could happen is by author fiat.

>> No.37098750

I absolutely disagree with that assessment.

>> No.37098781

Well you can disagree all you want. It's meaningless though because you have yet to come up with a convincing way for the Imperial Faith to come about and take root without simultaneously causing another civil war.

>> No.37098807

>The idea in this new context is that the Entombed don't actually spread religion. They simply create an inquisition-like atmosphere on the worlds they assault during the Scouring, as well as on the worlds they control. They uproot perceived treachery, and care very little for evidence or reason. This excessive loyalty leads to an environment of fear, where questioning the Emperor or the Imperium will get you killed. That environment simply evolves, in the very long term, into dogmatic loyalty, and then worship. It's gradual, organic, and without direct blame.

Is plausible, convincing, and wouldn't lead to a civil war.

>> No.37098853


Still, by that reasoning the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't come into power until sometime after M35. Certainly there'd be several millenia in which the Imperial Truth would still hold sway.

Actually the rise of the Imperial Faith would coincide with the decline of the Imperium. I'm getting 'Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire' vibes from that. many would claim that the Imperial Cult is weakening the Imperium, not strengthening it.

>> No.37098913

>Still, by that reasoning the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't come into power until sometime after M35. Certainly there'd be several millenia in which the Imperial Truth would still hold sway.
How long does Lumey live? The second he dies and/or leaves, the Truth is going to start crumbling.

>> No.37098932

Okay, yes it is convincing but at the same time it's not going to create the monolithic caricature of ultra unified-Catholicism that the Imperial Creed is often portrayed as. Which then again, the Catholic church was never this big unified entity its often thought of as.

Personally, I think by M35 there would be several dozen competing centers trying to assert influence over the Imperial Creed. The Ecclesiarchy should come about in, in my opinion, when the proponents of the Imperial Truth realize they're a dying breed and attempt to at least wrangle all the spins on the same core doctrine into something that can sit together under one roof and not immediately go to kill each other.

>> No.37098960

>Okay, yes it is convincing but at the same time it's not going to create the monolithic caricature of ultra unified-Catholicism that the Imperial Creed is often portrayed as.
Why not the fuck not?

>> No.37098982

Because that isn't how people or societies work.

>> No.37099011

It is in 40k

>> No.37099038

Then by that logic the heresy should have never happened.

>> No.37099045


What evidence do you have for that?

>> No.37099072

the same circumstances produce a monolithic caricature of ultra unified-Catholism

>> No.37099096

Except the default Imperial Creed is hardly unified. Seriously, so long as a world meets a small checklist of things they don't give a fuck what they do.

>> No.37099105


But the Hektor Heresy isn't the same circumstances. They are vastly different circumstances.

>> No.37099141

ladies, ladies, you're ALL beautiful
seriously, GW didn't put this much work into the Imperial faith. it's literally just meant to be a generic representation of hardcore religiousness

>> No.37099161

>monolithic caricature of ultra unified-Catholicism that the Imperial Creed is often portrayed as.
>Except the default Imperial Creed is hardly unified.
You need to make up your fucking mind.

>But the Hektor Heresy isn't the same circumstances. They are vastly different circumstances.
The differences are insignificant, and I'm done arguing with an anon about shit I've made my mind up about.

I agree. All we need is a simple setup and then a "and then it turned into the Imperial Cult." You cunts are seriously overthinking shit.

>> No.37099205

>monolithic caricature of ultra unified-Catholicism that the Imperial Creed is often portrayed as.
>Except the default Imperial Creed is hardly unified.
Note the words "often portrayed as".

>> No.37099236

>The differences are insignificant, and I'm done arguing with an anon about shit I've made my mind up about.

You aren't the one who alone decides what the Imperial Creed is like. Everyone has a say. You, me, Lumey (When he returns), Alex, Uriel, Vetrovnak, etc.

I want them to weigh in on this when they get on.

>> No.37099259

Just so it's said, I do want the Imperium to go all ultra religious. It makes it that much more ironic that the Vetrovnak are doing a better upholding the Imperial Truth than the Imperium.

>> No.37099307

The problem I see here Golgothos is that most of the reasons you've given is what the Entombed do, and then the desired effect you want, devoid of actually taking into account the situation at hand.

Your argument so far is 'because I like it', 'why not', 'I don't like that answer', 'this is my story', and 'it happened in canon'.

Fostering a compromise is what we need to find here.

Not really. The Vetrovnak are an obvious alien(perhaps not alien in origin, but definitely apart from humanity like mutants) entity taking advantage of humans. That's most of the reason why the Imperium is xenophobic.

>> No.37099443

They'd argue its symbiosis but that's largely irrelevant.

>> No.37099464

>devoid of actually taking into account the situation at hand.
The only significant difference, as far as I can tell, is that Lumey is an Imperial Truth cheerleader. I honestly can't see how that could have any significant impact on the spread of Emperor-worship in the long term. The Emperor and Lumey, and to a lesser extent the other primarchs, are all that are keeping the Imperial Truth up. The Emperor forced the Imperial Truth on the galaxy, at gunpoint no less. Once the Emps and Lumey are gone, it's not going to take long for the galaxy to get back to its stuff-worshipping ways, and the stuff they chose to worship is the Emperor.

"It happened in canon" is a perfectly legitimate argument, IMO, and I'll tell you why. There is, in writing any setting, a threshold of plausibility. In some settings that threshold is high, like Star Trek. Things need to make a great deal of sense and be well accounted for. In other settings, like Harry Potter and Warhammer 40k, the threshold is very low. Things making sense is less important than things being interesting and fun.

I have always operated, and will always operate, under the assumption that our threshold of plausibility is equal to that of canon 40k. That is to say, if it is plausible enough for the OU, it is plausible enough for our AU. When I say "it happened in canon," what I'm saying is "it may not be plausible, but it is plausible enough."

>> No.37100177

May I suggest my thoughts at the beginning off this thread? It IS a bit of compromise, and, depending on events, could be a plausible idea. If it's no, then fine.

I do agree that I want to have the same amount of religious zealotry, but I also want it to develop organically, in a way that makes sense. I don't want to have gone through all the work we've put into the project making more plausible explanations and characters only to say "because reasons" at this juncture.

>> No.37100276

>but I also want it to develop organically, in a way that makes sense
>It's gradual, organic, and without direct blame.

>> No.37100422

Right, but we run into the Lumey issues. He's going to crush this unless he has VERY good reasons otherwise. Which is unlikely, from his perspective. Part of why I posted what I did was a compromise. Pit the need for stability against the need for reason, and stability wins. But that's just me.

>> No.37100498

>Right, but we run into the Lumey issues. He's going to crush this unless he has VERY good reasons otherwise.
Is "he's gone by the time this happens" a very good reason?

>> No.37100534


He's gone. His successors aren't. His policies aren't. His influence as the savior of the Imperium isn't gone either. You know how important Guilliman is to 40k? Well that's Lumey.

>> No.37100629

It seems to be that this complaint applies equally to the OU, and the same solutions from it apply. Lumey is a strong proponent of the Imperial Truth, but not as strong as the Emperor himself, and lacks the influence, staff, and infrastructure of the Emperor.

Sure, the death of the Imperial Truth will be slower. Lumey will carry it on after the Emperor dies where no one really did so in the OU, and his successors will do their best to do the same. But all that will do is slow things down, and at the scale of ten thousand fucking years, even a few milennia isn't that dramatic a change.

I just don't get the Lumey fanwank. Everyone has a boner for him.

>> No.37100663


Look at all the threads about Guilliman in normal 40k, and then remember that Lumey is in effect our Guilliman.

>> No.37100886

I think perhaps my description of my idea was unclear. The Entombed don't preach Emperor-worship. They simply set up favorable circumstances for it to slowly grow. When it starts out, it's more like red scare Mccarthyism. The evolution from that to anything discernable as religion is a long, slow burn. As Lumey's influence gradually declines, it gradually flourishes. Lumey and his men can't "put a stop to it," because during their lifetimes nothing objectionable is going on.

I'm really trying to be accomodating, but I genuinely don't understand the complaints. If it's a miscommunication on my end, that's my bad. I find myself repeatedly saying what people literally suggest to me, only to have someone else, or often the same person, say "no that's wrong." I think the difference between my suggestions and you guys' ideas are dramatically smaller than is being communicated.

>> No.37101173

I'm cool with that then so long as long as we get around to explaining how the Ecclesiarchy is founded as an institution beyond "it just happens".

>> No.37101301

Oh well yeah sure.

>> No.37101372

Just making sure since the way you set it up no one is at the helm of how things go so there's going to be a wide variety of doctrinal differences that spring up.

>> No.37102929


>> No.37102933


Ah good. We need you to weigh in on the whole 'Imperial Cult' debate.

>> No.37102981
File: 34 KB, 550x492, lonelytree.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Okay, that sounds a lot cleaner than how I read it earlier. Or maybe the problem lies in reading this all from a phone. Words get skipped, or inflections lost in the tightly crammed space.


>pic unrelated, just find it funny.

>> No.37103182

>'Imperial Cult' debate.
well I thought about it over breakfast.

Golgo's guys are only really helping to slightly create the conditions for it to spread.

Which brings me to my solution: Aubrey.

I'm not giving Aubrey a new toy here, it's just fleshing out/expanding upon what he already has.

So the EZ are hardcore Truthers pre-heresy.
"There are no Gods" being a big thing.
Then Aubrey *finds/meets* the gods.
And he becomes their prophet/undivided apostle.
So he starts spreading the new "Truth" about the existence of the gods.
And in our AU the traitors are far more thorough and take more worlds.

This invalidates the ImpTruth directly by refuting, with evidence, its assertion that there are no gods.
So civilians and soldiers and leaders can *see*, and also maybe hear, that there *are* gods, thus the ImpTruth is a lie.

You cannot then go back and force compliance with the ImpTruth as it has no moral or valid authority any more.
Even Lumey or the Emps himself could not change that short of killing everyone who heard about the gods.

Thus, the only way to challenge the ChaosTruth, is to counter it with your own.
So a bit like the Catholic Counter Reformation.
wiki link here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Reformation

So Lumey would likely be championing a religion that crams as many ImpTruth tenets (rationality, science, reason etc) into it as possible.
But as with every religion, extremist sects rise as individuals (Maybe Goge Van Dire) harness the material/rules laid down, and twist them to their own purposes.

I haven't thought out how far this concept will take the Cult, but it has roots in logic, i think anyway.
And it isn't as Golgo says, overthinking it.
Its just using our AU established lore, and a simply as possible establishing the Cult.


>> No.37103197

To weigh in on this whole debate about the imperial creed:

Jesus Christ calm down guys.

Now on to a more productive choice of words...

The imperial creed is important, but we have set up a pretty barren place for it to take root. Lumey doesn't die so far as I'm aware, and his successors are constantly aware that they have their primarch to live up to, even if he's only thawed out for one month or so every thousand years. It's still a pretty big motivator to keep the faith (figuratively speaking) when your patron saint does make a periodic appearance.


Worship of the Emperor as God will still be likely to emerge and gain traction after most of the primarchs have faded into legend and the imperium starts moving under the direction of mortal men for one and precisely one key reason: it's a better defense against chaos than the Imperial Truth. The IT failed to fight the flagrantly irrational powers of chaos during the heresy, during the scouring, and during the periods thereafter. Sure, daemons still get banished through the application of firepower with or without blind faith, but faith makes the bullets hit harder, makes the people less susceptible to possession, and in this case ignorance is actually a good thing, as knowledge of chaos tends to lead straight down the road to damnation.

So what I propose is the faith is very slow to develop, and leads to a schism of sorts similar to some the imperium faced beforehand. Take a mini-heresy, if you will, where chaos takes deep roots all over again. THis time, though, the legions aren't there in full strength anymore, they're much more fractured. A unified defense is far less feasible, and when the dust settles the guys who proved most effective at stomping out the powers of the warp were the simplest, most zealous souls. See what happens when the high lords take note as the intelligent men they are that faith makes a man anathema to daemons.

>> No.37103296

I did ask a rather intelligent coworker about this topic, and how to resolve it the way we would desire, and his answer was a series of natural or unnatural disasters. Nothing stokes the fires of religion faster than massive chunks of the population getting eliminated by something they can't control.

In this case, we could substitute it with Waaagh! The Beast, the Vetrovnak (sorry if I spelled it wrong), and possibly this second Chaos uprising (mayhaps the first black crusade?) to fan the flames of the Imperial Creed.

>> No.37103333

I was thinking more plague of disbelief or something similar; make it chaos welling up from within. The administratum would then start to pick up the general thread that certainly peoples and worlds fared better than others, with far lower rates of possession or defeat by daemonic forces. Master of the Administratum presents his findings to the other high lords when a trend is discovered with some strength to it, and the high lords collectively begin turning the wheels of government to take the small cults of emperor worship and magnify them, to make them stronger and vaccinate the imperial population against further incursion by chaos. Perhaps a black crusade would work, though, with the internal uprisings being the opening act before the eye opens and hell pours out?

Similarly, Uriel's idea about certain worlds having been instilled with faith from Aubrey's proof that gods exist can be put to good use, making them the places that fare best against internal corruption and thus becoming the birthplace of the new church once the dust settles.

>> No.37103371

That works for me. I'd have figured however long it takes to beat both The Beast and Vetrovnak would have given the Traitors the time they need to reconsolidate, and after all those years or restructuring and Empire-wide warfare it would be an excellent time to attempt to strike again.

Perhaps the plague of disbelief is also something drummed up by Traitor agents on various planets? I know the Cult of Merrill could be having some fun...

>> No.37103448

The timing I would leave to people with a better grounding in the lore than myself; I dunno when the Beast or Vetrovnak are supposed to be kicking about.

The only thing I would say needs to happen before the shitstorm that births the ministorum is the loyalist primarchs all need to either vanish or die, as their leadership would preempt any effort to build a state religion. It doesn't have to be the *first* black crusade, after all.

>> No.37103466

>Uriel's idea about certain worlds having been instilled with faith from Aubrey's proof that gods exist
AH but don't forget that Aubrey's proof of gods existing is the chaos gods, not the Emperor.
All that exists before the Chaos Gods are revealed is the ImpTruth and the beliefs of barbarians/xenos.

So imperials are taught to be atheist essentially.

Then the Heresy happens, and gods are revealed to exist after all - the Imperial Truth would be utterly disproved, people would stop following its teachings as the core concept was wrong.

So if anything, out plague of disbelief would happen much sooner than the OU, because our ImpTruth was so much more ingrained into Imperial life.

So my proposal, if you all agree, is that the Imperium is forced to push their own religion, to counter the oligarchy that the chaos gods suddenly explode onto the scene with.

Lumey and others (Arelex perhaps?) of course pushing the concepts of science, rationalist thought, and reason, into the new Imperial Cult, where people like Golgo are pushing a more classically catholic 40k religion.

Over time, with the Emps on life support, the decline of the Legions and the disappearance of the Primarchs, the Cult is lead by mortal men, men who's ambition and greed cause them to use their words and their influence to shape the faith to suit their needs - as a tool of oppression, instead of solely as just a tool to counter the influence of the Chaos gods.
Obviously this culminates in Goge Vandire's rise to power, after which things kind of find their equilibrium, and the Faith as we know it exists.

>> No.37103495

My counter to that is that there is seldom 'proof' of the dark gods to anybody. Most IA troopers and Imperial Citizens see is marines killing people and gripped by insanity. They've known warp entities have existed given that psykers and navigators see them with unsettling regularity, and all of the above were given very rational descriptors during the Crusade. To the common man they aren't seeing gods, they're seeing madness. And given that nobody is really going to go back for seconds to prove the chaos gods exist through science, and the traitors word is pretty much meaningless given that they're traitors...

I'm just saying it wouldn't be as cut and dried as you're suggesting.

>> No.37103547

>I'm just saying it wouldn't be as cut and dried as you're suggesting.
Oh I'm not suggesting it will be, but for brevity of posting especially in light of my several thousand word posts of last thread with FG I kept my explanation pretty simple.

People wouldn't just abandon the Truth so quickly, for one there is nothing else to take its place, and humanity only changes its philosophies when there are options on the table to change to.

But our AU has Aubrey running around preaching that the Gods exist, sure its the enemy, and the Imperials *could* just ignore it as propaganda, but at the same time, with the Truth so ingrained previously, they aren't just going to dismiss it out of hand, as that wouldn't be scientific or rational.

Plus, while they are used to the warp, daemons themselves would be pretty new, as well as possession, and the other gribbly stuff the chaos have that is previously unknown to all but a few in the Imperium, mostly the psykers...

There is also the angle that Aubrey is a massive Truther before the heresy. For someone so staunch an proponent of the Atheist Truth, to suddenly abandon that belief in favour of following actual gods?
People would suspect that such a fiercely atheistic man *found* something.

Funnily enough, the Imperium being rational and scientific is what makes the spread of the Chaos gods and subsequently, that of the Cult faster - as the Truthers aren't dismissing other concepts out of hand without proof, because that is contrary to their very belief.

>> No.37103579

Suddenly remembering Horus' discussion with Loken. One of his men goes all possessed and they have to put him down. His entire form and material-ness gets called into question, and Horus flat-out calls it a daemon, if only for simplicity's sake. He basically sums up warp entities as daemons themselves, because the word fits. Perhaps we could follow that route in certain ways?

Don't forget, we're not just witnessing Marines going nuts, but physically mutating and changing before their very eyes. Civilians would be/could be scarred for life from that shit. It's the kind of thing that gets passed around.

>> No.37104427


>> No.37104434

bump for a quiet day

some more post-rock to hopefully inspire some writing:

>> No.37104441

Ok, doing another voice over run.
Does anyone have any requests?

>> No.37104503

Something serious and/or dramatic maybe?

You have a skill for the humour, but I'd like to see some more serious stuff.

I'd really love it if we could make audio quotes etc for the wiki.

Maybe try one of the lesser used primarchs?

>> No.37104535

Give me a selection and some vocal theme to go with.
I'm sure I can do something.

>> No.37104992

Guess the primarch.

>> No.37105092

this is pretty much what I think of when I imagine the Everest leaving the galaxy

>> No.37105254

Also - no russian accent?!
Or did he drop the space russians angle?

Hmm. Maybe start with reading a Lumey quote from a legion page?

pretty good man
very 4x space game ambient
makes me want to play something

>> No.37105314

literally just clicked that this is from the film interstellar....

(I don't pay attention to current movies etc much)

I'm itching to play the original x-com or something now...

>> No.37105325

I tried to make it russian/nordic inspired.
My russian is terrible so I used a bit of both and made it more subtle.
I don't want it to sound hammy.

>> No.37105369

>My russian is terrible
Mine has been called good by actual Russians, so I may give it a go. I wanted to for some time.
Just always busy, and forget when I'm not.

I need to re-download audacity though.

>> No.37105409

In my opinion, use a noise removal, then a compressor.
No need to get right up in your mic if you compress it afterwards.
Then lower pitch depending on how deep your voice is.

I have mastered Daemon Prince Aubrey, I'm still working the kinks with Aubrey and I really think someone else should make voices of him.

I am trying to master Golgothos's effects, it's a lot of pitch changes, echoes and bass boost.

>> No.37105530

Alright, just picked up some inspiration for later Read: Skullsplitter Ale[\spoiler]

Heading off to bed in a minute, keep things lively fellas, I'll be back.

Listening to God is an Astronaut in the meantime.

>> No.37105845

Oh hey, it's Vulcanfag!
Fan of your work over in the Free Company thread.
You're more than welcome here, friend.

>> No.37106055

Happy New Year to you, too, m8.

And y'all are gettin way too heated over this Imperial Creed thing.
But I do agree that I like distinguishing our AU from the OU for the most part.

>> No.37106761

What do people think of:


as a solution?

our other alternative option is:

>> No.37106878

I think I'm gonna change the time-frame for the heresy Stone Men, it's a little abrupt
something like the horns of ruin taking on Neolithus as a personal vendetta, just like a small stepping stone on the way to Terra. The siege turns into a grind as the horns get desperate (time constraints, Hektor telling Kranios to stop his dick-measuring contest with Onyx) and the remaining Stone Men arrive to finally repel them from the planet. Kranios' fleet is superior to the Stone Men's so it stays in a reverse cadia situation (they control the planet but not the space around it)
the horns initiate their plan Z and open a massive warp-rift consuming the planet. the rest happens the same it did before, but around the time just before the siege of terra.

>> No.37107314

been incredibly slowly working on this:

"Mankind cannot fight what it cannot see. What it cannot touch. It

cannot fight corruption any more than it can fight ideas and gods.
It can only resist and react. Indefinite resistance is impossible due to

the ravages of time - making time the ultimate tool of change."
"Very enlightening, but what if mankind simply kept reacting?"
"Indeed this is possible. But this will only last so long; reactions

happen after the fact, a reflex action to things already in motion. They

hold no momentum, nor any initiative of their own, they are at the whims

of the events they respond to, like a boat adrift in an ocean; it can

react to the waves and the winds, but it cannot affect them, only

survive them.
It will not be a swift change for mankind. No, it will be slow. A steady

and inexorable erosion, a gradual build up of pressure, that will

eventually shatter resistance and burst forth, enveloping everything in

its path in a landslide.
"So there will be no change without direct intervention?"
"Precisely. I believe you and I will bring about that change."

Its either Tzeentch talking with/corrupting Uriel, or more likely, Uriel talking with/corrupting Aubrey

It isn't much, just a snippet
Not sure if its okay, or going too grandiose/high brow

>> No.37108268

'Scuse me, Uriel; any chance you can get on IRC?

>> No.37108961

Ok, full confession: I've hit a bump in my own projects. I'm not sure where to go next with the Elume Elish Campaign. I want to avoid the boring linear 'Traitor Legions just sweep from planet to planet, take it and then go on to the next one' that has been done everywhere including in the Heresy series. I've introduced our three Traitor legions and given each a planet to tkae, but have no Idrea where to go next with it.
I said before I wanted this to be sort of a community project, and so I'm reaching out to the community. Does anyone have any ideas and/or thoughts?

>> No.37109063

okay who have you got as the participants so far for both sides?

I know the Bloodbound and Heralds are present, and The Scions iirc, that right?

>> No.37109252


Traitor Forces: Heralds, Bloodbound, Lions Rampant, Legio Magna, Unspecified Triaotor Army.

Loyal Forces: Scions (Later on), Imperial Army, unspecified others.

I haven't given much thought to the loyalists really. They're pretty gimped in this scenario.

>> No.37109426

>I haven't given much thought to the loyalists really. They're pretty gimped in this scenario.
then thats what you should work on.

Think of history - Hannibal fucked Rome over, no-one leading the legions could touch him.
Until someone came along that showed they didn't need to - the whole scenario of Carthaginian success was confounded in a simple but elegant change of tack by the Roman commander Fabius.

Or say, in Operation Barbarossa - the Wehrmacht would have destroyed Russia were it not for Hitlers intervention and insistence on the power game that was Stalingrad.
The obvious outcome there changed because the players changed it.

That's what you need here I think.
The Traitors are doing amazingly, but its only always going there way as we are trying to justify how they reach Terra. It doesn't mean they need to always win, they just need to win more than they lose.

And the loyalists can fuck the traitors up, but still be forced back. The germans were being forced back when they made the Ardennes offensive (aka the Battle of the Bulge), or same war, but opposite front, where the Russian advances were constantly turned back by the fireman actions of Model and others.

Another example is Waterloo - the arrival of the Prussians changed the entire fate of the battle.

>> No.37109758


I can see where you're coming from, but how to translate that to a galactic sector campaign with no less then three Primarchs in attendance?

>> No.37109836

look at their strategies and how that would affect the campaign.

For example, if the Bloodbound are present, there will be a lot of assault, much of which would be from teleporting/deep striking.

I think you need to introduce another loyalist legion, maybe 2.
Then you can use there legions strategies to formulate ideas on how the Loyalists might turn the tables on the traitors, even if it doesn't win the campaign, like Leonidas in 300 making Xerxes bleed - he still died, but it was a symbolic victory.

>> No.37110736

quick bump.

Wonder where people are today (hope they aren't all recovering from last night heheh)

>> No.37110843


Working on the Elume Elish and kicking myself for spending far too much money on Steam.

>> No.37111302

Hey hey, my freaky darlings, it's DJ TZ with the bump of the day!

The Warp's a weird place, kiddies; last week, I saw a dude twist his own head into a knot.
Today, a buddy of mine grew teeth out of his eyes.
Me? I just forgot to wear my underwear today, baby.

Despite all this shit, one thing's for certain; no one can destroy the metal.

Keep it where yah got it, here at Jet Tzet Radio, bringin you smooth soul and rockin riffs since M30!


>> No.37111451
File: 1018 KB, 500x500, 1420093565578.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I had to go to work today, sadly, so I didn't party last night. But the stew I made for my coworkers was a rousing success, so, not a terrible day. Did you do anything interesting?
The Elume Elish campaign takes place right before the Siege of Terra, right? By that point in the war, Brennus is actively heading towards Sol to put the hurt on his traitors, so they could be in that area. If you need loyalists, there are about 10,000 of them that you can use if you want.

I just bought the Dawn of War 10 year edition, what have you gotten?

>> No.37111493

Alexi, how do I contact you?

I have questions regarding your original concept for the Gorgers. I acknowledge that you did not 'create' them, but would appreciate some thoughts on your additions to their wiki.

Last time we were [potentially] discussing Nathanogs interractions with Tollund.

>> No.37111551

post any questions you have right here in thread my man, if no-one else can help you, Alex will see it/we'll direct him to it

How are you finding writing for the legion so far?

>Did you do anything interesting?
Just a party with some old friends and coworkers.
Was a good time, if tamer than it has been in the past.

>> No.37111571


He's on in the evenings, I believe there's an IRC Channel he uses.

As for Tollund, he is pretty much what would happen if Vulkan fell to Chaos. He is the most human of the Primarchs here, the one who goes out of his way to help the Imperial Army and tries to find peaceful solutions to problems, but when that fails drowns his foes in a tidal wave of armour. And yet he falls and becomes everything he once fought against.
At least that was the original characterization. Things may change when someone takes him on.

>> No.37111754

I'm here.

>> No.37111775

Its the last big bastion before reaching the areas around Sol, right?

First big thing is, its not going to be that easy. That close to Terra is going to be fought for tooth and nail by the loyalists. Introduce IA generals with exceptional strategy to counter some of the traitors forces. Focus on the sheer numbers of troopers IA forces can bring to bear, and don't skimp on just how dangerous their fleet assets can be. Also, keep in mind that if there is a forge world in the sector there's a damn good chance there are titans fighting on the loyalist side. What happens when a Lions drop site suddenly has a trio of reavers bearing down on them before they've finished landing?

You don't really need to add legions to the mix. Just give the loyalists their due; they're fighting for survival and are going to be nothing if not stubborn. A good point of reference is how the Fall of Orpheus was written by the Forge World guys. From the very beginning its a forgone conclusion that the Necrons are gonna steamroll the imperials, but it gives a good accounting of how the imperials fought on even after they were all but lost.

Start with the IA and Navy forces. Give them some leadership, a few traits and a nod towards their doctrines. Then add in mechanicus forces if any, and some of the legion forces that are present (Scions, right?). Don't add new marines to the mix unless you have to.

>> No.37111924

>Generous leader get fucked by reality
Sounds good, we could even focus on how his desire to save humanity is even more damaging than making sacrifices.

Actually researching things right now. See the next post.

Some thoughts on Nathanog:
- Anti-Psyker as seen during the Council of Nikaea. Given his background, I wonder whether that suggests a fear of the unknown. It would be easy to claim it is a superstitious reaction to 'sorcery' due to his tribal background. But I wonder whether he encountered psykers during his formative years on Thorond-Ul. Possibly during his time in the wild.
- No care for government. Dude is kinda lazy, he picks people he thinks are honest and commendable then gives them positions of power and expects it to work.
- Insensitive. While the early fear of the Thorond-Ul people at his monstrous stature and appetite is largely irrelevant, there are quite a few primarchs that would take offense to it. Nathanog blows it off, arrogance is his shield. Overall that will play a large part in his decision to side with Hektor.
- Loyalty to his children: Nathanog is pretty wrapped up in bro-love. In-that he placed the opinion of his legion as sufficient cause to betray the Emperor. That's pretty huge. Fuck caution, my kids think it is a good idea.
- He may have been good friends with Tollund. While Nathanog does not concern himself with civilians he understands their worth as future combatents. Furthermore, their mutual dislike of the Sons of Fire would aid in Amicable relations between the Gorgers and Mastodonti, though I question Tollund's taste for Nathanog's gluttony. It should also be noted they were on opposing sides of the Nikaean debate.

Nathanog really strikes me as a space Aztec.

What are your thoughts of the above list? Do you have anything to add? How is the story of Nathanog you were writing coming along?

>> No.37112274


>> No.37112295

My vision of Nathanog was that he's far more simpler than the other Primarchs. The initial reason why him and Inferox clash is because they both come from the same type of world. Except Nathanog went with the flow and Inferox was always trying to find meaning in the universe, rise above his beginnings. At their core they're fundamentally two different types of people. Now I don't know about anti-Psyker, but it does make sense. I imagine he's hugely insensitive but also argumentative. He doesn't take slights lightly, or perceived ones for that matter.

>> No.37112453

Insensitivity can also be a sign of reclusion, usually out of safety. If he does not take slights lightly then why did he blow off the villagers fear of him? Was it because he knew he needed a place to stay? He seems pragmatic, but shortsighted.

Simple would be a good word. That'll be an interesting thing to write around as by that indication he does not possess an extensive vocabulary.

Certainly he is a primarch, but why waste time reading when you can spend it fighting and eating? I think Leman Russ would have hated this man.

>> No.37112509

No no, you're taking simple too far. He is just as articulate as the others and can read and write. He just doesn't see the point in things such as philosophy. Also, the people are the village were just scared of him. He was able to pick that up and not care about it.

Compared to all other Primarchs he is the simplest, but not base.

>> No.37112559

Did you see my earlier comments on MacBeth and Nathanog? I'm just thinking about the tragic element of his betrayal, sort of really regretful at first and lamenting his decision, but gradually worrying less as his guilt drives him mad, right up until the end.

>> No.37112569

I am having difficulty comprehending this. Are you saying he is intelligent in a utilitarian sense, but unconcerned with intangibles?

>> No.37112654
File: 342 KB, 607x641, 1342643749607.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Nathanog applies his intelligence precisely on what he sees as important.

And what he sees is not much, compared to what his brothers envision and think upon.

Knowing how to count, how to write, how to speak properly, are all important. But philosophy?

>> No.37112695

In all honesty, I think you should go with how you can see him, make it make sense, and be interesting etc.

Run with the broad concepts, but there has to be a line where you can make the decisions for the subjects you write about.
I think that line is stuff like this, personality etc.

Alex patched up a, shall we say 'eccentric' and pretty flat character concept by the original anon. It's kind of remarkable he is a workable character at all.
But you should define the details now.

I gather you were just asking for ideas to understand the concept

Also are you able to get on the irc?

By this I think you mean he has a basic education, but has no erudite learning as he sees no practical purpose to it.
In other words he's pragmatic....
heh I kid - disregard this. Was joke.

Part of me recoils at portraying the original Nathanog in that light given who made him, it feels vindictive. But then again, its pretty much what he was going for anyway...

>> No.37112873

Perfect. Thank you. Also where is the image from?

Be on in a bit.

>> No.37113011

I like this idea.
and this

However, the Imperial Creed concept sort of overshadowed my other idea which I'd like some input on.

What does everyone think about a schism in the Entombed during the heresy?

>> No.37113135

I actually think I like this better than the Decimation, it never really made sense to me to have the Emperor kill off so many loyal warriors, especially ones who have trouble replacing losses. He strikes me as more practical than that.

>> No.37113553
File: 116 KB, 800x1344, 357145_md-Death Guard, Dreadnought, Nurgle, Plague Marines.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Looks like 4chan ate my post.

I've also been nibbling at the fact that the Entombed don't have psykers. It started in the first thread, when the Entombed were mortal enemies of the Thousand Sons, before someone said "hey let's make this an AU."

Because of that, it feels sort of vestigial. I definitely want the Entombed to stay in the anti-psyker camp of Nikaea, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have psyker-capable marines. Leman Russ was the fiercest proponent of banning psykers at Nikaea, but the Space Wolves still have psykers. Plus, the War Scribes (and another legion I think) already have the "we don't have any psykers at all" angle, and I think it fits them better.

This opens up the possibility of Obitus being a sorceror, which I think fits with what I have in mind for him, raising the dead astartes in the Catacombs as spooky scary fungus-covered skeletons.

>> No.37113654

Yes. It seems odd that a legion would be NOPSYKER. Certainly psykers must be controlled, but ALL the primarchs saw the clear utility of psykers on the battlefield. More than a few 'worked around' the edicts of the Council of Nikaea because of this.

>> No.37113772

So that raises the question of what an Entombed Librarian would be like.

>> No.37113814

A cleric?

Ie buffing and helping, rather than being offensive with his spells?

>> No.37113819

Maybe they would see themselves as channeling the power of the Emperor (King of the Gods) directly, like they are his special chosen ones. Since they view their abilities as directly from him, they might not even consider themselves psykers.

>> No.37113975

Their Chaplains.

Think about it.

>> No.37114047
File: 17 KB, 180x289, 1418821275680.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Now that's an idea.

>> No.37114125

but chaplains are introduced *by* Nikaea.

To *watch* for psykers and make sure no marines are going all warpy...

Which is partly why I said clerics, but you do have proto-chaplains to work with I suppose...

>> No.37114154

Didn't Golgothos already have chaplains before then?

>> No.37114227

The Entombed have proto-chaplains in their Cardinals and Bishops, who serve as high level commanders, maintain the morale of their troops, and lead the burial ceremonies. After Nikaea, Golgothos uses the Bishops and Cardinals as chaplains, rather than creating them from whole cloth.

Perhaps he chooses to induct the Librarians into the order of the Chaplains, so that they can be watched more closely? Or perhaps Cardinals aren't just chaplains, but possibly Librarians, Tomb Wardens (techmarines) etc who distinguish themselves?

>> No.37114274
File: 56 KB, 447x528, Damane_and_Sul'dam.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Or maybe there's a Seanchan thing going on, where every Librarian is watched over by a Bishop, and is treated as a non-entity? Are psyker servitors a thing?

I'm just spitballing here.

>> No.37114290

It's possible that some of the Chaplains were already psychic too. I mean OU after the librarius was pretty disorganized in legions that didn't like psykers. Plus: It's basically:

"Oh you were a psyker? Don't use psychic powers I guess"
"For the Emperor and all that"
"Oh this light? It's my faith in the Empeor. What are you a fucking heretic?"

Thus the psychic chaplain was born.

>> No.37114346

Hello Citizen, I am Mentor Kraus of the Eternal Zealots.
I heard you worshiped the God-Emperor...

Let me tell you how science is the only thing you need to the believe in.

THIS is my power hammer...


Science, bitch.

>> No.37114453

That'd be a good precedent to set since the Sisters could use it to get clerics in their ranks.

>> No.37114463
File: 45 KB, 800x600, 96149_md-Blood Angels, Dreadnought, Freehand.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Puny Zealot, you dare speak of hammers to me?



Your science cannot save you from my might.

>> No.37114523

Moot ate my post

>Every Librarian is watched over by a Bishop
A cool angle to explore
>treated as a non-entity
they are still marines, so wouldn't be slaves or treated with anything more than mild suspicion/aloofness.

>psyker servitors a thing?
Not possible. They get lobotomised to become servitors. Psykers need their brains.
Also, cybernetic implants suppress psyker ability/powers, apparently to the few sources that deal with the specific scenario.
So they can't work really.

This is why FG's tech sorcerers don't work.
But I have a compromise to propose to him when he's next on.

Maybe have the psykers get put into the command squads, so the leaders can watch over them personally. That way they aren't outright prisoners, but they aren't let off the leash so to speak.

Anyway, enough buzzes killed tonight.
Sleep time.
Night guys.

>> No.37114573

>Not possible. They get lobotomised to become servitors. Psykers need their brains.
>Also, cybernetic implants suppress psyker ability/powers, apparently to the few sources that deal with the specific scenario.
>So they can't work really.
Yeah, that's what I thought, and why I asked. Maybe they use that as a punishment? To have your powers, and your mind, ripped from you, and turn you into a mindless husk for the Entombed's war effort? Or as a "reward"...

>> No.37114596
File: 97 KB, 356x587, Youdonefuckedup.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

The fuck it can't.
Backwards grave licker.

Take your candles and scented oils and go fornicate with the Emperor you pack of rabid cavemen.

I shall be furthering the Imperium.


While you mark the grave of a long dead practice.

>> No.37114699

Cybernetics don't necessarily suppress psyker powers; I'm sure I've read somewhere that there are psychoactive implants meant to bolster a psyker's powers. If nothing else look at the librarians with the number of cables and shit plugged into their skulls linking to their psychic hoods.

That said, psyker servitors are most definitely out. Lobotomy pretty thoroughly screws a psyker out of his powers.

>> No.37114806

There is fluff indicating that cybernetics slowly eat away the soul, as in the parts of the body lost = parts of soul lost. Iron hands are an example.

>> No.37114844

It likely depends on the type of cybernetics, their quality, the nature of what is replaced, and the training and mental fortitude of the recipient.

>> No.37114895

two words;
psyker dreadnoughts

>> No.37114909

Aw yiss.

>> No.37114945

Hmm, this has the makings for a battle of titans. The man who would cut the heart from our realm, to replace it with an organ from Beyond, versus He Who Serves, but Does Not Live. Who shall prevail? Who shall be struck down? Who shall bear witness to this greatest of battles, so it will be known throughout the ages?

This guy

Seconded. I think mainly the type of cyber stuff that would stop psyker ability are things that replace large portions of the brain.

>> No.37114960

See >>37114895

Librarian dreads are a thing for both BA and GK if I remember right.

But again, I'm not 100% on this, so you may very well be right.

>> No.37114983

Even if it isn't we can always just say it's a totally possible thing in this AU.

>> No.37115006

>Seconded. I think mainly the type of cyber stuff that would stop psyker ability are things that replace large portions of the brain.
most of the stuff they do to dreadnought pilots is skin-deep stuff like nueral interfaces, and if they do replace anything it's because it was badly damaged . they don't just take the brain out and stuff it in a robot

>> No.37115068

Exactly. Being interred into a dreadnought doesn't involve the large amount of brain tissue replacement that being made into a servitor does, so it is plausible.

You're definitely right about the Angels, I don't know about the GK.

>> No.37115123

Working idea: After Nikaea, Entombed psykers are viewed with mistrust. The Entombed see them as abberant mutations, lesser than other Astartes. Librarians are assigned to bishops in a buddy system vow of service. These bishops are charged with watching the Librarians for sorcery, heresy, etc. If a Librarian serves with distinction, honor, and most importantly, humility, they earn the right to one day be interred in the holy tomb of Dreadnought armor. If they prove mistrustful, or show signs of foul sorcery, they are lobotomized and turned into servitors, stripped of their powers and their humanity. That means that, for a Bishop, having a servo-skull at his side is a mark of his failure as a guardian, a dishonor he must forever bear.

>> No.37115157

I like it.

>> No.37115325

That's pretty good. I like the thought of that servo-skull just hovering next to one of these guys for hundreds of years, silently judging him. Does this practice continue on even into the Heresy? Or does Golgothos allow them to use their powers again when it starts (or at some point during)?

>> No.37115388

Perhaps Librarians earn the right to use their powers when they earn a dreadnought?

>> No.37115840

Yeah, I think that works well. Their Bishop should probably have some way to shut them down if they suspect a problem, even though that probably doesn't happen

>> No.37117008

Hey guys, Azard is interested in helping. He is wondering if there is a legion that needs to be covered.

I assume yes. Alexi still has his hands full right?

>> No.37117080

There are several legions that, to my knowledge, are abandoned. The Sand Keepers come to mind.

>> No.37117084

He is also wondering whether there is a legion being worked on whose background fluff is similar to the Spacewolves as Emperor's Executioners. But with a greater emphasis on the tragic nature of the situation, a total lack of pleasure taken in the act of killing brother legions.

>> No.37117168

Not really, but there's the Eyes of the Emperor, who we've been debating mulching and replacing with a new legion. Tell him to come up with some fresh ideas for a primarch and legion and post em, I for one would love to hear new stuff.

>> No.37117229

Sweet. I'm telling him now.

>> No.37117515

You're kidding.
Azard, the Canadian Painter Guru?
What's your connection to him?

I'd be careful, m8; this is a group project, so just sayin someone can do somethin may be passable, but it would need a group consensus to be ratified.

Space Wolves....hm.
Maybe the Crusaders?
Gorgers? But they're taken by...well, you.
Hey, maybe the Mastodontii?

>> No.37117540

>I'd be careful, m8; this is a group project, so just sayin someone can do somethin may be passable, but it would need a group consensus to be ratified.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be thought and discussion.

>> No.37117566

We talk on skype.

He is genuinely interested in helping, but was uncertain as to how. Especially as he has no idea where to fit his ideas into the universe.

>> No.37117942

Well that's why you just throw them out and see what sticks and what doesn't.

>> No.37117961

Yeah, that's more or less our style here. We throw out an idea and then refine, refine, refine.

>> No.37117989

That's what I told him. That is basic story-making: constant idea creation and filtering.

>> No.37118000

I know, but discussion and creation are a bit different.
I'd hate to have Azard come up with something awesome, but find out we don't want to get rid of the Eyes yet, yah know?

Well, ain't that a thing.

>> No.37118037

Well right now he is just brainstorming. Plus it is totally possible we could implement those ideas into the Eyes of the Emperor. I mean their very name gives the impression of Imperial Adjudication.

Better to attempt it only to be told it cannot be done than to have never tried.

>> No.37118041

>I'd hate to have Azard come up with something awesome, but find out we don't want to get rid of the Eyes yet, yah know?
I wouldn't. Either way, something awesome was created, and the alternative is that it doesn't exist at all.

>> No.37118069

Not necessarily; I'm fine with thinking and discussing things, but creating things?
I would just hate to have this awesome thing created and fleshed out and not used.

I suppose.

>> No.37118094

>I would just hate to have this awesome thing created and fleshed out and not used.
I would not hate that at all.

>> No.37118117

You amuse me.

>> No.37118146

At the moment it isn't even created. He is simply brainstorming on his own. Nothing is set in stone, which is a great part of this project. It is fluid.

>> No.37118155

I mean, is it worse than the idea not existing at all?

Nothing < Cool thing not used < Cool thing used

>> No.37118208

Still, is an honor to have him consider us.

No, but that doesn't change the fact that I'd hate it.
It's waste.
I hate waste.

>> No.37118223

Let's just see what comes forth. It's always possible to downgrade the Eyes to a chapter so they aren't thrown out.

>> No.37118236

>It's waste.
>I hate waste.
Ah, well I don't. I've never seen anything inherently wrong with wastefulness. Used to have a friend who'd get stoned with me all the time, and when we went to the store, he'd sit there and calculate the most efficient use of his money. Meanwhile I'm just standing there with a soda and some chips saying "let's go dude."

>> No.37118258

Rather, yes, it is not worse.


And that would be where you and I greatly differ.
Still; that's like, your opinion, man.

>> No.37118259

Yeah, he's a cool guy. Totally bro tier and simply another anon.

>> No.37118275

I really like the idea of turning the Eyes of the Emperor into a sort of Internal police force and Astartes Internal Affairs.

>> No.37118307

I could totally see Lumey being a proponent of that.

>> No.37118321

Agreed. It would add to their genetic fear. The Emperor is no idiot, a 'flaw' like that would certainly help maintain a healthy amount of suspicion of cousin astartes.

>> No.37118353

And when most of them them turn traitor, it would be...jarring, yes?

>> No.37118380

Oh indeed. The paranoia left unchecked will lead to severe mental imbalance.

>> No.37118988
File: 1.77 MB, 500x281, Inferox and Golgothos meet in the Eye of Terror.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>> No.37120581

I can get behind this.

I'm also not opposed to completely rehashing the Eyes. I think we lost him because of the original Nathanog as well.

>> No.37122055
File: 38 KB, 800x599, 436895_md.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Obitus, the Black Cardinal.

>> No.37122067
File: 83 KB, 800x880, 267311_md-Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, Dreadnought, Nurgle.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Nurgle sorcerors in dreadnoughts raising undead terminators.

>> No.37122075
File: 106 KB, 800x600, 133303_md-28mm, Based, Chaos, Chaos Space Marines, Conversion, Death Guard, Dreadnought.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I mean come on.

>> No.37122093

Holy cow, anon, this is fantastic
>Feeling shame at lack of ability

>> No.37122137
File: 125 KB, 768x1024, 431215_md-Herald, Nurgle, Throne, Typhus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Nigga I found these pictures, I could never paint this well.

>> No.37122165
File: 2.86 MB, 3072x2304, DSC00741.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

The shit I paint looks awful.

>> No.37122196

What do you call something of Golgothos?


>> No.37122256
File: 25 KB, 80x80, Entombed Icon.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.37122348


This might be ironic, but originally the Executioners were supposed to be the Gorgers, but Nathanog scvuppered that idea, like the War Hounds were the Emperor's original Executioners before Angron showed up.

The Storm Bringers/Knights of Justice are the Emperor's 'New' Executioners. They're the ones who censure Aubrey for his Xeno-Heresy.

>> No.37123174


As originally envisioned, Tollund tried to get on with all of his Brothers, and only ever hated one of them (Alexandri), though there was probably a few others he was only ever cordial with. Inferox and Nathanog were two he tried very hard to get along with, and was one of the only two Primarchs who could keep those two from fighting, the other being Hektor. So Nathanog would be at the very least someone he would put a lot of effort in to like, but he also does the same thing with Inferox.

It’s the reason members of his Legion have close ties to both Legions. (Nymylan to the Sons, Issitoq to the Gorgers)

>> No.37123935

right just gonna eat, then I have 3 hours to work on shit until later tonight.

>> No.37124120
File: 50 KB, 608x600, 83994-Battle Damage, Dreadnought, Warhammer 40,000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Yo Uriel, what do you think?

>> No.37124182

Sounds fine, I think psyker dreads are a thing, but they'd be rare just by the fact dread armour is rare...

Buddy system is cool too.

>Obitus as a sorceror
I think this is cliche, but otherwise fine.

I still think the charismatic preacher of the Truth going off the rails because of the truth itself angle was cooler, but that can be worked in elsewhere with another legion

So yeah, no real arguments from me man

>> No.37124222

>Nathanog throws "Emperor's Executioners" out the window.
That makes sense if Nathanog views the Legion Astartes as his extended family. Though even if he does not the dishonesty implicit to the assassination of other marines would certainly disgust him.

>> No.37124412

Thus further cementing a legit hatred of Merrill, who would view such things as either necessity or simply a thing that needs to be done.

>> No.37124510

and so our picture of the relations between primarchs and the conflicts in their personalities becomes clearer.

Once I'm done cleaning up the Kids/Uriels pages, and getting more of the Heralds done, I think I'll do a personality analysis of each primarch, from the perspective of Uriel, but with meta-knowledge from anons, and collate it, so that we all have a reference to work with.

Having to read entire legion pages to understand a legion is tiring to the reader and slows the project down I think.

Anyway, I do think we need to start making some more progress now, we've slowed over the holidays, understandably, but the heresy must go on after all.

>> No.37125038

You've at least gotten a tad better, yet?
Your white doesn't look much like melted butter on that Termie.

>> No.37125750

right im off, back in 5ish hours, hopefully less.

>> No.37126612

>Macbeth into Nathanog
You mean a king aspiring for the throne only to discover the prophecies he has ignored are actually true?

I do not agree. Certainly the appearance of three seers telling him his doom in the middle of the Crusade would be appropriate. But I do not see Nathanog having aspirations for the throne.

>> No.37126756

I'm thinking more of the "commits betrayal at the urging of those closest to him, then goes mad with the enormity of his deed." Like how MacBeth only actually killed...whatever king it was after his wife goaded him. Likewise, Nathanog turns after his sons push him into it, even though he does not want to, and during the heresy he just gets worse until his willing death at Albrecht's hand (different from MacBeth, since I don't remember him WANTING to die).

>> No.37128101


>> No.37128596

Macbeth eventually became consumed with his obsession to rule the kingdom. However, his grief induced insanity definitely helped.

I can easily see Nathanog slipping deeper into depression and madness as he watches his legion become everything he worked against.

It would also help if he actually killed a primarch during the heresy. Do we have fluff on that?

>> No.37129465


I can't remember that ever being brought up.

Here's all the Heresy Primarch Deaths off the top of my head.

Bohemond: Killed by Aubrey the Grey, Isstvan.

Orosus: Killed by Merill

Kleisthenes: Killed by Hektor

There may be others that I can't recall.

>> No.37129675

Roman gets pulled into the warp by/with Sebastion

Alexandri dies, somehow, forgot how it ends up now

Octullus as of current writing, gets marched into the EoT

Kranios died but Onyx might have been retconning that now
So also scratch Onyx dying

Arelex gets killed by Mechanicus later

>the fates of the following are not mentioned iirc, and need to be added:
Octullus (its up in the air given the rewrite)
Nathanog - being worked on, iirc he dies at Terra or something

>The fates of the following are 'missing', alive, or otherwise dealt with:
Uriel - in webway
Lumey - in stasis
Golgothos - killed by Vrach in m35
Vrach - killed by Golgo iirc in m35
Voidwatcher - wanders off to look for another galaxy to be a god in iirc

>Those risen to Daemonhood:
Kranios - briefly - unless retconned now
I though Vrach would have... So golgo banishes him?

Don't think I've missed anything

>> No.37129732

Alright, I have gone through all of the points you made in the previous thread, and have fixed them.


Before you say anything about how the Tech Sorcerers don't work as a part of the Horde, I would like to point out that the Tech Sorcerers have never had anything to do with the Horde. They are a faction that I would like to expand upon later, but I used this as a means to give them an introduction point. As of the Heresy, there are no Tech Sorcerers that are working in the Horde. A couple might join later on, but post -Heresy is not something i'm concerned with a the moment.

>> No.37129741

I think that's all we've got.

Planning Tiran's death as we speak. The angle is going to be...unusual... shall we say.

I do believe that would greatly enhance the story. Have him possibly kill another Primarch early on, and the guilt of the actions becoming a big driving force for his madness, and forcing him to stay on track. The classic "I've gone too far, I can't go back."

I thought Voidy got killed by his own men...

Anyways, sorry I was away. Was picking out a puppy as an early birthday present.

>> No.37129762


>> No.37129923


I did say 'Heresy' Primarch deaths. I was omitting those during the Souring/Post.

Also we need more Loyal Primarchs who are foretold to 'Return at the End Times'. Gaudin and Daius should have that face.

And I thought Vrach was a Daemon Prince, and Golgothos only Banished him for a thousand years, no more then that.

>> No.37130018

Have the urge to write. But first, dinner and Hamlet. Will be back in a few hours. Hopefully, with the scene of Tiran's death. I'll fill in other things as they come.

>> No.37130048


It should be a hard battle, and it should really scar Merill. It'll be the moment when he fully embraces the insanity of Chaos. I actually get a sort of a Joker vibe, that scene when he sees his white face and just cracks. Something similar would be awesome. He sees dead Tiran and just cracks.

>> No.37130086

Yes. And no. And yes. It's going to be a challenge, and I'm not sure I can fully do it, but I have plans, and it's going to be a very complex and bizarre sequence of events for Merrill.

>> No.37131115

Things sure are quiet tonight. I hope to have something later on, when sleeplessness and coffee kicks in.

>> No.37131193


Desktop is assembled. Installation of OS begins shortly.

>> No.37131584

I disappear during the 1st Black Crusade, according to Lumey's profile. I figure I pull a Russ and charge into the warp looking to stab some heretics. I already have an idea for when Golgothos and I happen to meet up in the warp after some number of years stomping heads and taking names in the warp, and I have to re-do his wards and repair his hammer.

Lookin forward to it.

>Not nearly as much profusion of commas, good work

>Discipline Master Gorash Braman, an influential member of the Horde, someone that could convert a lot more
Add a verb of some kind here, and you'll be fine. You could just say "WAS an" And it would be fine.

>read its ugly head
Vast improvement, good job.

Did they not have even rudimentary information about the planet surface? If not, why not?

>stripping human status
Frankly I don't like this. Placing them under sanctions and the stewardship of the Horde, because they want to cow their foes and humiliate them at the same time? That would work.

Vrach IS a Daemon Prince, but Golgo's fluff has them both die in M35. Does that only banish Vrach?

Blessings of the Omnissiah upon you, brother.

>> No.37131742

remember to paint it red so it will go faster

>I disappear during the 1st Black Crusade, according to Lumey's profile
Theres a lot of primarchs in the warp now then... Seb, Roman, Vrach and Golgo... Not to mention the DP's

Explore some other options as well - note i'm not against the warp route, but I'd like to see if there are other ways we can take a primarch out of the game without killing them or losing them in the warp

I mean Uriel goes to the webway, but thats pretty much just the warp anyway.

>Mastadon anon:
How many primarchs go into the warp in canon?
And how many are loyalist?
Its most of them right?

>Vrach IS a Daemon Prince, but Golgo's fluff has them both die in M35.
Yeah this is something we need to sort. He's Nurgles chosen, he'd be a DP. So maybe it has to be a banishment.
Maybe it isn't the first time Golgo banished him into the warp?

Also to note - i think we need to leave the primarchs ends vague. They go missing, if they went missing, details thereof are going to be limited at best, otherwise they aren't really missing, that make sense?

weekend, and we need to get a discussion going again/start progressing in the heresy.

>> No.37131756

Or was SOMEONE, rather.


>EZ just leave, not worth their time anymore
Very nice. They were only valuable to the Zealots because of the trouble they could cause for the Imperium,

>Khorne gives the tech sorcerer an army
Buh-whuh? Khorne does not like Sorcerers. Did you change something about these guys that I missed? Or do they worship Chaos Undivided? That would make some sense then.

>Ogryn psykers
Hahahahaha that's terrifying. I wast to see some fluff about one of those guys.

>> No.37131785

Ogryns are not developed enough to have the capability to bear psykers.

>B-but weirdboys


>> No.37131870

I thought Sebastion killed Roman, and was subsequently killed by Alexandri. We've had some fairly unique options, like Arelex potentially a captive of the Mechanicum; but I can try and piece something unique out. I'm just going with what Lumey has on his page (apparently we become penpals during the Scouring).

I'm going to be doing a lot of work on my page fluff this weekend , but I agree we need to work more on the Heresy. Are we even finished deciding who will be there?

An ogryn psyker is like a barbarian who thinks he is a wizard. He tries to brain assault the enemy, and when it doesn't work he gets mad and smashes them instead.

>> No.37131906

the last bit of that was meant for >>37131785 sorry, little stoned

>> No.37132147

Agreed. Dinner was heavy. Way too much flour in the soup. Now I'm fighting sleep, and barely through Act 2 of Hamlet.

>> No.37132187

They are Chaos Undivided, And, Khorne has given Sorcerers shit in the past.

Also, Ogryns, in 1st Ed, had a 1% chance to develop psykers. Honestly, if this thing sticks, then the psyker Ogryns will probably all get fed to the Golden Throne.

I did want one that could do the Warp Spider thing and jump about, ninja style. Make a Ogre Maneater Ninja in 40K.

>> No.37132266


>> No.37132375

IIRC Lionel and Vulkan just sort of fuck off to space. Dead/Warp aren't the only options.

>> No.37132424

>Yeah this is something we need to sort. He's Nurgles chosen, he'd be a DP. So maybe it has to be a banishment.
>Maybe it isn't the first time Golgo banished him into the warp?
I think it's more dramatically interesting for the Entombed if Vrach is somehow permanently dispatched on Mortis III, but I know that's probably not reasonable unless Nurgle decides to no longer favor him for some reason. However, I've always operated under the assumption that although Golgothos "kills" Vrach there, he'd eventually be reborn in the warp as daemon princes are, and if no reasonable cause for Vrach's permadeath can be found, I'm fine with that.

Surely there are Daemon Princes in canon that have been permanently killed?

>> No.37132469

Ok, I'm fine with it if they're Undivided.

>ogre warp spider
Dear lord, that's a frightening image.

Vulcan is dead/in stasis thanks to Black Library, but yeah the Lion is asleep.

I think M'Kar was perma-killed by Uriel Ventris. Or Marneus Calgar. All the Ultramarines blend together for me.

>> No.37132557

>Vulcan is dead/in stasis thanks to Black Library
Is that a new thing? I thought Vulkan went off to find something, and never returned. And the Artifacts of Vulkan, his spear and such, are things people find while looking for him.

Even if that isn't/was never the canon, it's an interesting possible direction. There are a number of our primarchs who might plausibly disappear on some mission that takes millennia, with his sons still looking for him.

>> No.37132649

Sadly, Unremembered Empire crapped all over that idea. Now Vulcan is basically just in a coffin, not rotting, but not alive, and he was incurably insane the last time he WAS alive. But I agree with you; since they ruined it, we should take back the idea somehow.

>> No.37132691

>How many primarchs go into the warp in canon?
>And how many are loyalist?
>Its most of them right?

Corax, Russ, The Khan is in the Webway.

Dorn is presumed dead, Guilliman is Stasis, Sangy dead, Ferrus dead, Vulkan just vanishes, and the Lion is in a coma.

>> No.37132720

>Surely there are Daemon Princes in canon that have been permanently killed?

One, and that took an Atheme Shard specifically designed to kill Daemons. And to be fair, that Daemon prince was M'kar, the worst of them.

>> No.37132761

In Fantasy he's one of the best, because they actually utilize him for the setting rather than him just BEING there.

>> No.37132790


Are you confusing M'Kar with Be'la'kor?

>> No.37132844

Perhaps. Possibly.


>> No.37133013

Well then either Johannes loses Nurgle's favor somehow or Golgothos merely banishes him. I doubt Nurgle would abandon Johannes, he's like the Nurgliest Nurgling ever to Nurgle.

Banishment feels like an anticlimax for Golgothos as a character, though.

>> No.37133044

Nathanog should still be dying to the primarch he was originally oc'd to die to.

>> No.37133085


Welcome to 40k, where Sacrifices are most often made in vain.

It's better then canon Dorn, he was stabbed to death by 100 Chaos Marines.


Why not die to something like a Titan, or an artillery strike, or like Dorn is mobbed by enemy troops?

>> No.37133291

It was M'Kar.


>> No.37133369

Throwing my 2 cents into this, I think that all but 5 of the Loyalist Primarchs should die, 1 disappears to parts unknown, which can be brought back if need be for story purposes, 3 should go galavanting off into the Warp, and... Well, i'm not sure about anyone else, but it annoys me that there are no Loyalist Primarchs for 10,000 years, so, I think 1 should stay with the Imperium and be their supreme commander, of sorts. A roll that I think Golgothos fills perfectly.

The Longevity of a Primarch is a big question, but the longevity of a Dreadnought is not, Bjorn is 10,000 years old, so why couldn't Golgothos survive as long? The second problem of there being a primarch is "But, wouldn't they tell everybody that the Emperor isn't a god?" well, that problem is also solved. With Golgothos being a Dreadnought, he is subject to... Memory loss... I don't think it's a stretch to say that, after so long, ol' Golgy might have forgotten that dear old daddy wasn't a god.

I'm not saying to have him as the big guy that's always at the front of every mission, but I think, having him there, maybe as the leader of the Grey Knights of this universe, could prove to be an interesting story.

>> No.37133396

Why not let the story develop rather than putting them into artificial numbers?

>> No.37133454

Mobbing by enemy troops always seemed stupid to me. I mean, Russ was the kind of guy that 100 guys mobbing him would be what he considered "A little tricky" and Dorn, supposedly Russ' equal, goes down like a bitch to a wave of power-armoured nutters with pig stickers? That's stupid. I second the "Goes down to a Titan" idea.

>> No.37133500


And Guilliman is nearly killed by 10 Alpha Legionnaires.

>> No.37133590

Yes, NEARLY, and after being severely weakened during a duel with their Primarch. He actually went down to a fucking Daemon Primarch. That's the way to go.

>> No.37133631

>Slit from ear to ear with a daemonically poisoned knife is "severely weakened."
>The benefits of being a smurf

>> No.37133815
File: 1013 KB, 500x269, calm_sea.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

he was never oc'd to die to a primarch.
Alex briefly fluffed him as dying in a rearguard action at Terra.
Which i'll link with this proposal:

He wants to die, but he doesn't strike me as the type of guy to just lay down arms and die, stop me if you disagree.
So he does a rearguard to help his and other traitors escape.
He gets cornered by the loyalists, he fights on.
Then he runs out of ammo, and they aren't closing in on him, just waiting in big numbers, guns aimed at him.
He gets ordered to drop his weapons and face justice for his crimes (code for be made an example of, torture etc)
But he charges, one final act of defiance, so he can die knowing he died fighting.
Maybe the death itself is something like this scene: (note: without the context of this scene)

This to help refine what i am trying to say:

Maybe this idea is silly.
Maybe not.

You're the man now though dog.
What happens is your decision.
Technically, you could have him not die, or have him die elsewhere.

>Primarch alive
cannot happen.
Imperium needs to get grimdark.
Primarchs prevent that by being beacons of hope.

He can take 100 sure, but every wound he does take slows him down. Meaning more wounds, meaning slower, meaning more wounds.
Its death by 1000 cuts.

If everything and everyone is *epic*, it undermines both the definition of epic, and the setting. War is chaotic and brutal. Shit happens that never should. The *EPIC* moments only seem that way to civilians because we view it with detachment from events and ignorance of what it really is like in war.
Everything being epic and over the top is boring. One or 2 of those deaths, sure, that way they actually stand out. Otherwise it just looks like juvenile fanwankery.
Or like how GW deal with the Smurfs.

>> No.37133848

that said, a lot survive into the scouring or shortly after.

It just gets bloodier for those alive as they are having to take more of the slack caused by their lost brothers.

>> No.37134028


>> No.37134043

Alright, my internets are down for the count for idk how long. And I've got a bunch of other issues atm. Will post my little ditty as I am able.

>> No.37134222

I also was reading the 40k tvtropes page, and remembered the C'tan.

I know they get nerfed to buggery in the new editions.

I don't know you guys opinions, but I'd certainly like to see them return. They were interesting, what with being physical gods, not warp entities.
Could be the kind of the Voidwatcher would seek to become. Not sure if his anon is still with us, I hope so though.


Seeing as I silenced the thread for a bit, this is a bump as i leave for bed.
Hopefully you guys will keep it going/start a new one.
We need to finalise what we know about our Terra, more or less, so we can go back to the beginning to start working chronologically onwards from Istvaan/Diamat/Ostium etc.

>> No.37134366

Almost done with what I was writing. Have an idea on how to post it, so that might get uploaded shortly.

>> No.37134611

Alright, we'll see if this works. Have internet connection, but it has been failing to upload.

I agree.

>> No.37134635

Ho-kay, so 4chan isn't letting me upload anything.

Pastebin for now:


Will try to upload later, but be wary, as some of these parts have a change in emphasis that doesn't show in pastebin.

>> No.37134646

Alright, bad explanation is bad.

Please provide any thoughts or corrections on this, but keep in mind that there's certain formats that pastebin doesn't do, that are involved in here. So that's out of the way.

>> No.37134902

it's pretty good, some parts I would expand, like Tiran's death - I'm only thinking like Tiran's reaction, like being stabbed through the head would prevent a lot, brain stem being severed and all, but I would imagine he'd be shocked at least.

Didn't expect the insanity, though it was handled pretty well.

As for the trophy taking, I don't think Merrill would need to state trophies of Tiran are off limits, only Merrill killed him, no-one else has the right to claim a trophy from a target they didn't kill right?

I like it though

I've had some trouble with 4chan too over the last 24 hours or so...

>> No.37134922

Yeah, I figured it was a decent thing to add, as it included Tiran's mount. And I did have this image of Merrill scolding Read: almost killing a guy for taking a finger for the Primarch while he was away. I just wanted to leave the image that, for some reason, these two corpses are completely off-limits. There's something special about this event that Merrill wants it to remain intact, out of all the fucked up shit he does, this has to be left sacred. I'll have to touch it up. I wanted the death to be rather sudden and unexpected, though. By both parties.

>> No.37135142


Well, I had plans on having one of the Tech Sorcerers come across a Shard of the Void Dragon and submit to it, believing it to be the true Machine God. Becoming the Overlord of a tomb world.

>> No.37135249

Well that won't get past committee man.

No-one becomes a C'tan. The C'tan are the C'tan, Voidwatcher is about the only person who could conceivably try to become a C'tan if he ever heard about it.

Also, no humans become necrons.

Just going to make sure you don't get excited behind that idea, then get upset when it gets shut down.

>Tech Sorcerers
I have a compromise for you.
As Psykers and Tech Priests are impossible in the same being (TPs augment themselves, including their brains, which suppresses and extinguishes Psy ability. Inb4 Psyker Hoods - they aren't actually in the brain as augmentations, they are just external equipment)

Okay so my proposal is this:
The Tech Sorcerers are a faction, with members who are psykers, and other members who are tech priests etc.
They aren't ever both, but they work together, to further their respective fields.
The Psykers are fewer as they can offer the tech priests less (not a lot psy powers can do for a tech priest, but a lot a tech priest can do for a psyker)
So they are a faction, a group of individuals with similar philosophies but different backgrounds/areas of specialty.

This way we aren't breaking the AU or OU logic by thrusting tech psykers into it, and you get to keep them.

BUt if you want the tech sorcerors to be a minor thing in this story, you need to dramatically downplay them in your fluff for the horde.
As it stands they are on par with the prasrans for how much they feature. Making them seem less insignificant than they are.

And they will be insignificant - there won't be that many of them, or they stop being special.

This way also stops the AdMech and Astronomicon from getting pissed over them, they just get broken up as both groups grab the respective members for their own factions.

>trophy taking
would it not be weird to take a trophy from a target you yourself didn't kill though?

Otherwise, yeah its a good start man

>> No.37135428

>Trophy taking
Oh, I agree. It would. But I was figuring we have some enterprising young IR member, sees the enemy primarch dead on the ground, and Merrill never took a trophy. So he thinks that, hey, I'll get that for him, just to show how awesome and loyal I am! Presents him with a finger, and is immediately severely beaten for disfiguring the corpse. Which is confusing to everybody. But I couldn't figure out how to work that in there. Also, had considered them taking the head of Keratops as a Legion-wide trophy, but decided against it. Just didn't seem to fit the with what I was going for. I just am trying to have it so the reader knows that this shit is important to be kept sacred for some reason. No booby traps. No disfigurement. Hell, they set up a signal fire, just so the SB can recover the bodies. This is all very un-Merrill, and I wanted to highlight that he is treating this whole thing completely differently than he used to. It's like he's turning over a new leaf. Which he is. This is his last act of decency before heading off the reservation. Great. Now I have to figure out how to convey that.

I agree with Uriel on this one, man. Maybe we can bring the Pariahs back for you, though. Have him be some uber-powerful one.

>> No.37135656

I didn't say that he became a C'tan, I said that he submitted to a C'tan, which had him converted into a Necron Overlord.

And, I actually like that proposal, it gives some development for them. An end goal of trying to create something that has the best qualities of both. A new Gene-seed, if you would, that grants the user an affinity over both Machinery and the Warp. (Probably not succeeding, but, hey, that's religion for you.)

Maybe another reason why Kaal began worshiping the Dark Gods. As a Psyker, he wanted a robotic body, which is something that the Dark Gods could provide him. He seeks to become perfection.

>> No.37135702

Fair nuff. Although, it confuses me why Humans aren't transformed into Necrons? I mean, it's not as though, fluff wise, it would be impossible. Necrons are organic beings that were tricked into sealing their minds in robotic bodies that would serve the C'tan, so why did the C'tan never try to do that to Humans? I mean, send a shard to a densely populated planet with a load of empty Necron shells, then, convince the population to put themselves in the shells so that they could live forever. And if they refuse, then the Shard just murders them all, because he is a fucking god. That means either a whole world full of new warriors to fight your fight, or a whole world that is dead. Either way, a lot of yummy souls for the C'tan to have a munch on.

>> No.37135734

>Necron Overlord
Yeah I also addressed that.
It does not happen.
Crons are Crons. No-one becomes a necron.

>A new Gene-seed, if you would, that grants the user an affinity over both Machinery and the Warp.
They aren't making geneseed. Empy made the geneseed. Some tech priests know what to do with it, but they've never *made* it.
And again, psykers cannot be robotic/implanted individuals.
They are mutually exclusive.
You pick magic, or the machine.
There is no middle ground.

>As a Psyker, he wanted a robotic body, which is something that the Dark Gods could provide him.
Again, the robotic body would prevent ALL his psyker abilities.
He would become a normal human. Well, aside from the insane amount of robotic body parts.
But he can be either a robotic man, or a psyker. Not both.

There are no psykers in the mechanicus, and no tech engine-seers in the astronomicon. Not just because of keeping the 2 fields separate, but because they cannot exist in the same person.

>Why Humans aren't transformed into Necrons?
Because Necrons were never human.
They are a humanoid race, but not human.
Also, they became necrons because of a deal struck with the C'tan, granting them the necrodermis; their metal bodies.
Humans don't have that, and the c'tan wouldn't waste their time giving that deal to a human or 2, when they had billions+ of the former Necrons give themselves.

>> No.37135878

I meant Geneseed metaphorically. Not an ACTUAL Geneseed, just that it has the "Implant this in someone and they become uber" qualities that the Geneseed possesses, and I did say
>(Probably not succeeding, but, hey, that's religion for you.)
Just because I said that they set out to do something, doesn't mean that I have plans on it being possible to do.

>But he can be either a robotic man, or a psyker. Not both.

Blood Angels disagree. Like the Librarian Dreadnought, he would retain enough organic parts of himself to retain his psyker power.

>> No.37135920

It is said by the Steel Seekers Chapter that if they rebuild Roman's first sword, and return it to his sacred temple that their long lost father shall return.

>> No.37135987

You did qualify it with "probably" not succeeding
But my argument isn't with whether they achieve it or not, but that it is out of their skill house man

And the tech sorcerors aren't involved with the legions, so they would have no geneseed available to them.

Dreads are huge coffins. Literally life-support given tank armour and a gun with legs to walk.

They aren't implanted with tech like a tech-seer, tech priest, engineseer or any other mechanicus adept is.

Psyker dreads are okay, but would be insanely rare due to the rarity of dread armour (its not made, like termie armour isn't. The process of construction is forgotten)

>he would retain enough organic parts of himself to retain his psyker power.
Then he isn't a 'tech' anything.
Just a guy with some implants, like an Iron Hand, and would consequently have diminished psyker ability due to said proliferation of implants.

Its why in my proposal i separated the 2.
You can be a psyker, or a cyborg/robot/tech priest thing.
You cannot be both.
As they conflict with eachother

hey man, are you working on anything at the moment, the legion page is looking quite light now.
Also the page is missing the Marshals emblem - want to find one/make one and upload it onto the page?

>> No.37136045

Ok, there seems to be a break down of communication. You seem to be pointing out the flaws in their beliefs and then claiming that it is a flaw in my planning. It's the same with most religions, they set goals that they have no logical way of achieving (E.G. Buddists want to become enlightened to the point where they become one with everything.)

It's called Faith. Just because it's impossible, by the laws of space time, doesn't mean that they won't try to do it. As far as they are concerned, it isn't impossible, because it's what their god wants them to do, and why would their god set them an impossible task?

As for Kaal, he's gone coo-coo for cocopuffs. He is far too insane to realize that his ultimate form is in fact just trading one strength for another, because, as far as he is concerned, the Dark Gods want to make him as strong as possible, so why would they deminish his power? (Answer, because they don't give a fuck about him, but he's a cultist. Not realizing this is part of the job description)

>> No.37136075

Going to sleep because i just workedan overnight shift

>> No.37136130

But I'm pretty sure what I'm saying is, narratively, as in, in universe, its impossible to be both psyker and tech.

In the meta view, ie out of character, strictly mechanicaly, its also out, as its way too unbalanced and bombastic for the rest of the created AU.

I don't care what ideas people bring to the project as much as I care that they are consistent with the fluff we have, and the tone we've been keeping to.
I'm not saying your ideas aren't fun, or interesting, just that tech sorcerors don't fit this AU's setting, or its inherent logic.

They might have faith, thats irrelevant - they would know unless they aren't as bright as they think they are, that the machine replaces the spirit. The spirit being necessary for Psy-ability to exist.
They can work together, the Psykers can wield power, thus giving the Tech guys something, and the tech guys can make shit for everyone, giving the Psykers something.
They just can't make an individual with capability for both.

Space Marine librarians are about as close to the ideal as possible, in so far as they are all spirit, thus psyker, and have machinery, in their armour and equipment.
But they can't be robotic/tech-implanted psykers.

trading one strength for another is a fine angle, but there is no robotic body the gods can offer him - they can warp his flesh to make it daemonic, but they don't make machinery.
If you think you can convincingly write that angle, then okay, but writing insanity isn't easy, and writing insanity that makes sense to a reader the logic behind it, is even harder.

>what their god wants them to do, and why would their god set them an impossible task?
what god?
This is the first mention of a god I've noticed.
I may have missed it in the piece you wrote, but i'm pretty sure you never mention gods.

>> No.37136143

thats cool, i know the feeling.
I meant are you working on anything in a general sense, not literally right now.

I'm not setting deadlines, we don't get paid for this after all.

>> No.37136339

Tech Sorcerers worship the Machine God.It's why I refered to their Titans as "Avatars of the Machine God."

>> No.37136849

>dreads aren't made anymore

Not true. Dreads are made, but more infrequently. some of the variants aren't made anymore (Contemptor Dreads come to mind), but they're still made.

We could say that some of the tech involved in making a psycher dread are lost, And the Entombed simply re-use the old chassis, while replacing the sarcophagis whenever they have a Librarian they deem 'acceptable.' to be enshrined, though.

>> No.37136917

Okay guys this is from Azard:
>Basically I've got a rough description of the primarch.
>the legion is called the wardens
>I started coming up with a first captain character who sort of acts as the legion ambassador
>Legion symbol: 9 swords to represent sorrow Behind a closed medieval gate To represent the killing of the lost legions that will never see history.
>First captain: armin diederic
>Stern and loyal
>The diplomat between legions due to his primarchs asocial tendencys
>Has good relations with a high ranking captain of another chapter?
>Like his primarch at times questions the killing of the list primarchs, perhaps a catalyst for turning to chaos despite best intentions. Like most wardens he can come off as fairly cold


>> No.37136944

(Moar Azard)
Now some writefagging

There was no reasoning with this barbarian, it was just as his visions had foretold. The hulking form of the man whom he should have called brother charged towards Artemus, casting aside with ease the wardens who attempted to challenge him. No blade nor bolter round could penetrate his skin. The savages followed their god into glorious combat, wielding ancient weapons alongside primitive instruments of war. Pilfered old tech armour was displayed along side mail and leather.

Artemus jumped into action, racing toward the warrior king, around him his wardens, his sons, rallied and drew their chain swords and close combat weapons. The forces collided as the brothers meet face to face for the first and last time.

The lost primarch was the first to strike, his enormous two handed maul split the ground where seconds ago Artemus had stood. Dodging to the right atriums lunged with his foil towards the ribs, for most foes what would be a fatal strike, but for all his heft the brother was also inhumanly fast, leaping backwards in time to avoid the piercing blade.

Artemus was a step ahead, a swift shoulder check knocked the hulk back, disarming his weapon and disrupting his footing. Even without a weapon his brother was more dangerous than even the most veteran legionaries. An enormous strike connect with armtimus' chest plate sending him flying back

As the brother stalked towards the downed primarch several wardens made their way between the two attempting to assist their lord. They were swiftly cut down , their bolter rounds turning to dust on the Demi gods bare flesh. Their lives would not be in vain, artimus was on his feet, and this time he was prepared.

He also imagines his primarch being killed by one of his bros

>> No.37137300

I thought that the Minotaurs knew how to make Contemptors.

>> No.37137378

how would they know of the machine god before the Imperium/Mars finds them?

But okay, machine god it is.
Just address how they know who to follow.
I do like the Horde idea, it's cool to see the abhumans represented And will be even cooler to see how they handle being cast out of the Imperium like a dirty secret...(obviously post heresy)

I was lead to believe from fluff they are relics, like termie armour?
I guess not entirely, so i stand corrected.
But the point I made about psykers and tech priests is still valid.


Okay seems ok, will need more than that though, like what does the legion *do*, as well as doctrine etc.
Just a brief proposal is necessary (it was different for you as you came in to take over an existing legion)

Also, why doesn't Azard just post here in the threads himself?
It'd be a lot simpler if he is contributing directly, rather than through a third party.

Also, is he aware that this is a kind of long term project, not just a throw an idea in and leave kind of thing?
We do need anons to be present to contribute and such after all.


>This does bring up a question though -

Are other project anons (Legion anons, including formerMastadon anon) okay with cutting the Eyes of the Emperor in favour of the Wardens?

>> No.37137471


Hey guys, sorry, I am here. 4chan was down last night when I meant to post, but i can now answer question directly. i understand this is a long term thing and I'm really excited to finally have a dedicated project that can facilitate me flexing my creative muscles other than painting.

've been brainstorming a lot, but always working towards developing a cohesive legion and primarch. Any questions you may have for me, just ask any suggestions for topics you would like me to cover just suggest!

>> No.37137521

Nope. And even if they did, they use an ai targeting system. They're a big no-no after Big E gets interred.

>> No.37137613

Let me explain what I have envisioned, with some updates:

Hektor is dead. Cromwald and Inferox have been banished, and Merrill isn't far along. Aubrey has disappeared from the battlefield and the only Primarchs left standing in Sol are Tollund and Nathanog.

Tollund offers Nathanog that his Legion and their's can have a fighting retreat to the Eye, just as the First Cataphracts and Marshals ships are translating into the system, hours after the Void Angels came. Nathanog turns to his brother and says,

"Long may you live, Brother Oztal, but do not waste in useless pity the few moments left in which to escape from the hands of the enemy. Go, announce to all who stood with us of our defeat here. Suffer me to breathe my last among my slaughtered sons, let me be at peace with them as give you and others a chance to finish what we started."

The Gorgers are the boarding Legion. They're main penchant is stalking the halls of voidships, either overwhelming the crews or staying in the underholds for possibly months or years at a time, lingering(This is as single squads tho). Nathanog commits all remaining Gorgers to a massive void assault, but has Atmir the Young take a ship with 10,000 Marines(Possibly their Legionary flagship, or close to it), which has all their geneseed stores, and leave. The battle negates the advantage in numbers the loyalists have in ships but getting as close as possible then boarding. As the Traitor fleet is destroyed, they begin to take over Loyalist vessels and the whole battle in Sol is a mess.

Then finally, Roman meets in one on one combat with Nathanog. After killing him, the Gorgers realize they've thrown themselves into a suicide run, and attempt to escape. These Gorgers form the 1,000 Shards of the Mouth, countless warbands which either hold some Gorger tenants but not all, or are total rabid savages like any regular CSM. They also take advantage of the mayhem in the wake of the Betrayal of Sudden Flame.

>> No.37137627

I do have some ideas I had stole and some realisations too, from being sucked into tvtropes last night.

Firstly, the Children have to adopt the Codex, this was already accepted, and I said something like they still function largely as they did before, just in smaller divisons now.
Now I also have somethign concrete and very "Uriel" : they are nicking the Templars cheeky way of staying over 1k marines by exploiting a loophole in the Codex.
Chapters have to be max 1k unless on crusade. So like the BT, the Kids are on a permanent crusade allowing their numbers to be greatly inflated.

They do however, still have to break the original legion up into chapters first...

But this seemed right up Uriel's alley

Second - Uriel is the Magnificent Bastard trope.
Although he may veer into being a Complete Monster on occasion, as this is 40k, and there is no good, just different flavours of evil.

Ok, Hi! Always good to see a new anon.

Basically, we need a short summary of what your legion *is*.

What their specialty (if any) is, quick over-views on stuff like doctrine and notCultures they may have.
Also, a name for your primarch, with a description preferably, appearance, but also personality. These can be basic for now.

This is just so we can work it into our AU; The majority of the legions have been in since the start of the project, and keeping their concepts intact is important.

We want to avoid too much overlap with other legions identities, but there is *some* flexibility in that regard.
The Doctrine is trickier though, but there are thousands of ways a legion can fight, so it isn't unsolvable.

What I'm saying is, we welcome new-anons, but it may get quite frustrating at times, so be prepared.

Joining the project with a new idea so late will take a bit of work, thats kind of a given.
But assuming everyone else is okay with it (which they previously have seemed to be) then your legion will replace the Eyes of the Emperor.

>> No.37137750

>Nathanog speech
he sounds cultured here.

>Gorgers are the boarding legion
they are an assault legion, boarding is a by product of that, and they are good at it, but they aren't limited to space alone otherwise they are a tad pointless as a legion.

>Roman killing Nath
This is new to me.
He died in a rearguard action, but Roman isn't even at Terra...

Lets give Kitten the room to actually do this shit himself, I mean we want the legion to be his, so we have to let go of control. And in return the new/returning anon should *try* and respect written concepts, but shouldn't be bound by them.
You put lots of work into the Gorgers, but if you are still exerting control over them (however politely), Kitten isn't really their anon, is he?

I know you mean well, and your insights are undoubtably helping him, but Kitten should be able to choose how things work out.
He's already demonstrated he's being respectful to the fluff as he understands it.

>Which brings up another point for ALL of us
We need to clean the wiki pages up.
They are kind of messy.
Mine included.


On another note - Alex
now we have you back, how are you feeling?
Better I hope.
We are missing your legion and input.
What of Rosskar as well?

We're happy you're back, and I would like to see you contributing again.
Lumey might not be here, but thats not an excuse to do nothing man.
You were a very active anon, who was reasonable, kept the peace, and got engaged in discussions.
You are a shadow of your former self now man. And we all want you to recover from whatever funk you are in and go back to being an anon central to the project.

So I'm clear, this isn't intended as rude, or insulting. You just havent been the Alex we've all known previously. This might be 4chan, but you are one of us, and we want you to be okay man. That's all

>> No.37137788

>He died in a rearguard action, but Roman isn't even at Terra...
As in, Roman turns up after the traitors are already in flight/fleeing from Sol.
And I understood he died on the soil of Terra.

But I want the new anon to have the freedom to decide how his primarch goes down.
It'd just be unfair if we let him into the project, then tell him what to write.

We have fun here because we each have freedom with our own little slice of the project.
That should be for everyone.
I mean shit, I gave up the Bulwark and returned the IR. I don't have any say in their stuff anymore.
I'm not digging you out here, I've been in the situation too.

>> No.37137822

>Nathanog lands in notMexica
>Lives in jungle, is found by hunters.
>Learns of super-city of Popocatepetl and it's Warrior-priests
>Is taught about civilisation by the hunters
>something stupid happens at Popocatepetl, Megafauna begin attacking in broad daylight
>Nathanog goes into forest, begins exterminating predators
>Ritual sacrifice increases as more warriors join the cause. Some die, but overall effect is a stronger warrior population.
>Nathanog's boundless hunger leads to expansionism, villages either join Nathanog or are conquered.
>Popocatepetl takes notice afte Nathanog conquers the city-state of Cuernavaca
>Popocateptl attempt to make contact with Nathanog. Nathanog engages in talk, enters city. Is nearly enslaved by the techno-psychic priests, and escapes.
>Enraged, Nathanog vows to slaughter the priests of Popocateptl.
>Initiates a campaign of total conquest, engenders conflict in enemies by taking control of local resources and killing their warriors. Leaves land alone, letting the destruction of [name pending] as an example of his wrath.

>> No.37137836

I like it.

Just an idea:
The main reason Merrill hasn't been killed, captured, or banished yet is that he's basically just bouncing around sparring his social brand of "enlightenment" with no rhyme or reason.

Nice, and seconded.

>> No.37138029

I can see absolutely no one buying that unless they actually are, on Crusade, like those Chapters. I mean, in all this time, no one tried that same exact shit? When the Children, as the intelligence forces of the Imperium, already failed to protect the Imperium once?

Also, I'm of the opinion that something needs to happen in the Scouring, like a secret agent war between Loyalist Children and Traitor Children who both equally have no idea what the fuck is actually going on and Uriel gets ousted by having too many threads being pulled at once. You can't keep it all secret if it keeps building and building up to collapse on top of you.

He's a Primarch, not a subhuman.

That's what they were supposed to be and always were since we have multiple assault legions. The boarding legion is actually not covered by anyone.

Roman was ALWAYS supposed to kill Nathanog. And Nathanog was never on Terra.

The world Nathanog was one was supposed to be city-states on the verge of extinction with 16th Century tech.

The point was they were trying to be sophisticated and cultured, but in a land that demanded them to be savage. Nathanog came in, took some warriors, and showed them how to become beasts in order to kill beasts.

>> No.37138171

>Nathanog's fast expansion and growing support force the Popocateptli to engage him in open war.
>Nathanog's force harasses their flanks and trolls them into the deep jungle
>Nathanog's warhost bursts from the bush and surrounds the Popoceptli
>Majority of enemy combatants are executed before the city walls and sacrificed within a firing put. They are later skinned and consumed by Nathanog's warhost.
>The city falls soon afterwards, it's population put to the sword.
>While the city stored a vast array of archeotech and records, anything not of immediate use to Nathanog and his people was destroyed. Leading to the loss of hundreds of years of recorded history.
>Nathanog becomes emperor of Thorond-Ul
>Fucking bored. Megafuana are extinct
>People see Golden Ship from the heavens
>Nathanog can feel the immense power, rushes out to meet this new threat.
>Fight for several hours, finally beaten.
>Is told of why the Emperor came, heard of a 'Great Warrior King' and 'Devourer of Dragons'. Tells Nathanog there are greater creatures in the void, that an entire army awaits him.
> Nathanog accepts.

Some notes on Nathanog's rule, it remains largely the same as when he first arrived though he did make some adjustments:
>Maintains universal education
>Cast system, though it is possible for slaves to 'buy' their freedom and for members to move up through 'great' deeds such as capturing enemies or killing super-predators.
>Nathanog's political membership consists of "We hire people for personality"
> Generally more approving of consummate warriors than philosophers and priests.

>> No.37138237

>I can see absolutely no one buying that unless they actually are, on Crusade
The Black Templars do it.
And the Children can technically do that. Fight in a limited capacity as part of a crusade, sending off their agents to do their normal shenanigans as part of "over-arching strategy"
They have to conform to the organisation, but they don't stop being the Children in methods.
That said, it wouldn't always work out for them, they'd get dragged into fights they would probably rather avoid, but thats the cost of business, they are still marines after all.

>When the Children, as the intelligence forces of the Imperium, already failed to protect the Imperium once?
They watch out for shit, but as everyone including yourself made clear, they can't be everywhere at once.
They aren't defenders of the Imperium, not any more than everyone else. They do work as watchmen, and after Lumey investigates them they come out looking a bit incompetent in places, and too-complex-for-their-own-good too, but they do warn the Imperium the traitors are coming.
Hell they would be involved in Istvaan insofar as they warn the Imperium its happening, before anyone else does. They make sure everyone is looking in the right ways.

You forget, while Uriel is the expert at it, Hektor isn't a slouch at being sneaky.
And I was told Uriel can't possibly know everything.
So there are limits.
But I agree there will be backlash, as not everyone will understand that.

>secret agent war
There some stuff like that.
But both the Loyalist side Children and the Traitor side Children are on the same side...

>Uriel gets ousted.
Uriel is the only one save the Emperor who can keep track of everything.
Once he's gone things start unravelling.

fuck char limit

>cont briefly

>> No.37138298





>> No.37138347
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>> No.37138348

>he's a primarch not subhuman
I didn't say he should be, you said yourself he isn't dumb, but he isn't intellectual either.
That reads as intellectual.
It's moot anyway, as I'm saying Kitten should get the say in what happens with his legion dude.
I also didn't say he should be subhuman or anything close...
I think you are filling in blanks here buddy.

Being an assault legion is also fine. We have multiple siege legions too, and thats fine, same for vehicle legions.

Roman didn't always kill Nathanog. You added that, and I didn't notice when.
But Roman doesn't make it to Terra in time for fighting, neither do the Phracts.
Lumey only turns up as the Traitors are leaving, and gives chase. There isn't much, if any fighting on the ground when he gets there.
And thats the point, the threat of their arrival forces Hektor's hand. Not their actual arrival.

Lumeys arrival marks the beginning of the scouring, which is actually quite fitting giving who Lumey is.

Sounds good

there is.

The Children use the same loophole, they go on crusade.
To be eligible for that loophole, they have to be on crusade.
It's quite simple.

What the hell is wrong with you dude?
Acting like that is beneath you.

>> No.37138414

Does anyone have information on Aztec culture? Alexandri noted the Gorgers appear to be 'dancing' when they fight. Dancing - and music in general - are very important aspects of Aztec culture. They could certainly play a role in the ritualization of post-battle body consumption.

I would like some sources to form a better picture of my idea.

>> No.37138439

OK, here is the stuff I have come up with so far. Please give me all C&C you can so I can change things to better fit the setting. I really want to come up with somthing that will work.


Theme: legion killers

Loose theme: Non Victorian era.

Legion symbol: 9 swords 9representing sorrow) behind a closed medieval style gate.

Doctrine: generalist (due to the fluid nature needed to be legion hunters, no particular focus would make sense, jack of all trades, good at everything, but not truly great at anything)
Some tactics used: Firing line with breaching shields (think musket lines), use of force pikes in melee combat (in behind firing line that can be deployed as enemy come near) outflanking hover vehicles (think Calvary) with support from heavy artillery. Legion doesn’t use many tanks, but some. Air support is dedicated to movement of assets and resupplying.

Primarch: Artemus Kane

Theme: killer of the lost brothers.

Appearance: gaunt with pale flesh, dark rings under eyes, very dark brown hair in a Victorian style pony tail. Stubbly, rough beard. Grey blue eyes, almost kind of cloudy. Tall primarch with somewhat lanky build, muscular but wiry like a boxer.

Specialization: the duel/ champion killing/ one on one combat. Armed with force rapier (stillhet “silence”) range weapon: some sort of strong projectile one shot thing like a flintlock, has 2 or 3 on his person.

>> No.37138458


Personallity: (WIP) Has interactions with his brothers, but is on the best terms with the ones who generally behave in what he sees as a rational and logical manners. Has distaste for the ones he sees as irrational or outwardly brutish. Generally relatively soft spoken and polite, but very firm when people cross the line. When he does become angry he can tend to not think straight and make poor judgement calls, but is not prone to flying into rage. As the mental anguish from the task of killing his brothers and the events of the heresy unfold he becomes increasingly paranoid and reclusive to the point where the only people he trusts are the hierarchy of his own legion (especially first captain Armin Diederic)

>> No.37138833

to clarify, so you see what i'm saying
The Kids aren't *defined* by being on crusade like the BT do. But they do exploit the same loophole. It means more work for them, and thats fine.

>information on Aztec culture
wikipedia and googling sites might help lol

I don't know much about Aztecs i'm afraid


>Theme: legion killers
We're a bit leery of openly referencing the lost legions.
And we already have 2-3 legions who you could define as "executioners" I'm afraid.
People like that concept lol.

>Non Victorian era

hehe we kind of toned down the greek legion as pike warfare isn't very versatile, but change it to bayonets and it works
The rest is cool, I've said a napoleonic legion would be cool
We do have a notBritish legion, but they're more ww1-2 with bits of French of the same era.
So I recommend keeping the cultural stuff in concept only (ie don't make the link to England obvious), or go the Prussia/Austrian route

Unfortunately you are too late for Artemus to be the best duelist. Roman and Aubrey kind of beat you to that, but more duelists is still cool.

The rest seems good for now.

Wanna make a legion colour scheme?

>> No.37138846

Alright, this definitely shows promise, man. A few might take some issue with having another generalist, but you're replacing a generalist. Sooo... I guess you're golden?

Personality will need to be flushed out a bit more, but that is something that just takes time and effort.

On your doctrine and tactics, that might cause a few issues, I'm fine with it, but thinking you might need to re-hash some things there. If they're legion killers, they're going to need weapons/armor designed to take out other astartes.

>> No.37138891

>non victoria
aka notVictoria, notmexica and so on and so on.

Also, yes. I was hoping someone had more detailed info. I will be looking through their references in a second.

>> No.37138948

Ah I see, my apologies, I realised it might be that, after posting though, and I post more than I should, so i left it.

I would never have told students this, but wikipedia is actually a good starting point, usually with a relatively accurate overview of an academic field.
Of course, it does have its problems, but that's what corroborating sources are for.

Still, if you are going to the sort of lengths that going past wikipedia for more detail includes, I'm intrigued to see what you do.


Alex are you around and able to get on the irc please?

>> No.37138975


When it comes to the fact he killed at least one of his lost brothers would it be ok to do if its done in a way that is very vague and open to interpretation? Sort of like how its implied but never confirmed in the case of the space wolves.

I mean like space Victorian era I suppose.

Bayonets works, but they will have to have some sort of long bolter to make them work well. I can come up with a design. I had already planned for it to be a more austria like feel so that works out. Names like armin for example.

No worries on being the best, he is just a very good one on one fighter.

I have some ideas for the scheme already, I will go create a moc up!

>> No.37139125

Making a new thread for when this one dies, which isn't long

>he killed at least one of his lost brothers
well we have 4 lost legions.
I guess you could imply the Wardens were involved in one of those being taken out.
But as long as you keep it vague.
Unfortunately, it will have to be only the one, maybe hint it involved another executioner legion too, but we can get to that later.

>Victorian era
you mean like Napoleonic era?
Or the rise of the German, British, Russian etc empires, with the decline of the dutch, french, ottomans etc.
I suppose I mean in terms of aesthetic, more than anything.

>Longer bolters
this... actually sounds kind of cool

okay cool

please god no more grey...

>> No.37139234
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He's going to make them 50 shades of it...
Insert laugh track
>pic related

>> No.37139305


Ill be sure to keep it vauge, as per your request.

Napoleonic in terms of aesthetic. Im still developing the look, but for examples the captains have a half cape like pic related.

Ill not use grey since it sounds like you have more than enough of that!

Dont worry everyone there is a ton of content to flesh out here and it will be done, this is only my second day working on it at all, and im really looking forward to getting into the project full swing.

>> No.37139517


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