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36356509 No.36356509 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

>Paladins
Why does everyone hate these guys?

>> No.36356531

Because our enlightened post-modernist society can't bear the thought of someone who believes in something very strongly.

It also can't understand irony very well.

>> No.36356532

>>36356509
A lotta people play them dumb

>> No.36356550

>>36356509
They know they'd be first up against the wall if detect evil was a thing.

>> No.36356553

What's a paladin?

>> No.36356562

>>36356509
It's the "I'm always right" stance.

>> No.36356581

>>36356553
A miserable little pile of secrets.

>> No.36356584

>>36356509

Did anyone screencap that guy's story of the Paladin falling because he wouldn't help murder explicitly Good people?


Because I think that's the real reason people hate Paladins: A lot of people who get into pen and paper are edgy as fuck, and an actual bastion of incorruptible goodness is irksome to them.

>> No.36356586
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36356586

>>36356509
Edgy kids and shitty GMs thinking they are clever, and That Guys playing them.

Paladins in general have done nothing wrong. For example, pic related.

>> No.36356616

>>36356584
This.

Also, alignment systems a shit.

>> No.36356641
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36356641

>>36356509

They're all poor

>> No.36356644

>>36356616
this, this, this

They're a good concept that is really hard to execute within the mechanical concepts of D&D and with the attitudes of a lot of players.

>> No.36356676

>>36356584
>Paladin falling because he wouldn't help murder explicitly Good people?

When the hell did this happen?

>> No.36356762

Paladins have identity issues. No one can agree on whether they should be any agent of divine retribution, tied to any god who'd want that, embodiment of pure Goodness trying to do the best for everyone, or baby killing fascist fantasy cops using detect evil to turn campaigns into Psycho Pass. And because this exact discussion has happened thousands of times already, and there is no conclusion besides 'do what you want', /tg/ has grown tired of paladins as a whole.

>> No.36356771

>>36356553

>The Avatar’s back - lo and behold! The mantra he wants to know. For ’Cah’, demand a piece of gold, what a fool, let’s go!

>> No.36356825

>>36356676

I saw it last night in a different Paladin thread.

Basically, you had a world which had a mostly planescape system, except for the fact that the Evil gods cheated; and would just flat out send their minions to steal souls and force them into their planes and then eventually convert them into their vassal spirits.


Along comes an NPC, who has this great plan of running around, killing good people, using his magical doodleyfluff to immediately convert their spirits into a "fallen" (Fallen had to do with mortality not alignment, you had good fallen angels and evil non-fallen angels) angels, which he was gathering to attack the hells.


The Paladin had a few moral objections with this plan, and merely by voicing them and trying to talk this guy out of them, the GM decreed that he fell for trying to stop a significant force of Good in the world.

>> No.36356878
File: 40 KB, 253x409, paladin.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36356878

>>36356509
Every wants a morally ambiguous or downright edgy badboy character
Paladins with their lawful righteousness is the anti-thesis of that.

>> No.36357022

>>36356771

Huh?

>> No.36357284

Because they're just asking for us to hate them.

>> No.36357516

>>36356509
I was just talking to one of players about this. Another player in our Lonestar shadowrun 5e game is playing a hard line moralist. This is getting under the first player's skin very much. The issue is that playing hard line moralist in many D&D style campaigns is a way to boss others players around. For my game I do not think hard line moralist work very in shadowrun when playing as the cops. Paladin have a time and place, but Paladin players rarely try to read the nature of the campaigns. Having said that i love the idea of Paladins

>> No.36357575

>>36356509
I like them

But most hate them probably because they're so predictable.

>> No.36357593 [SPOILER] 
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36357593

Because everyone gotta be Lawful Good around them.

>> No.36357668

>>36357022
Ultima

>> No.36357709

>>36356509
because they're fucking heretics

>> No.36357755

>>36356509
Because people like to play conflicted and troubled characters that toe the line of good and bad. Paladins stay good, but the only thing people love more than a good guy is seeing a good guy go bad. Simples.

>> No.36357757

>>36356762
tbh I've been near obsessed with writing paladin characters for this reason lately.

They're seen as something that is confined to one cliche by a lot of people but they can be taken so many different directions.

>> No.36357764

Don't really hate them, buy having one in the party limits a lot options the campaign can go without the paladin being some sort of central character in it.

>> No.36357779
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36357779

Because people think Alignment is a concrete concept.

Because RP is full of fucking edgetards that dislike the idea of a person just being a good guy.

Because some DMs think it's funny to fucking ruin someone's fun in any way possible and making a Paladin fall is really easy to do so by.

>> No.36357909

>>36357779
Also because Paladins are predominantly played by idiots that don't know what a loophole is nor what their alignment means which just makes people really frustrated when they think that literally everything that isn't 100% good when they use Detect Evil needs it's head lobbed the fuck off.

>> No.36357923

>>36356509
It's not the Paladins, it's the people who play them.

>> No.36357956

Can't fuck no hoes.

>> No.36358061

>>36356509
It's not everyone or Paladins or people, it's /tg/

>> No.36358073

is it possible to multiclass a paladin and druid if you overlook the alignment part?

>> No.36358381

Because in a sub-culture with pretensions of being overly cerebral the idea of weaponized human decency and humble piety is unpopular.

>> No.36358717

>>36356509
IDK what you're talking about. I love paladins in a good game with good players and a good GM. Dream the impossible dream man.

>> No.36358995
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36358995

Cause I can play as a cleric.
Double the fun, None of the bullshit. And then as a cleric I have hundreds of flavors, rather than one.

>> No.36359157

I don't hate them. I just don't see the point in including them in a system that already includes (and always has) clerics.

>> No.36359235

Moral clarity makes people raised on postmodernist norms incredibly uncomfortable, especially when it's from a different ethical system.

>but anon, paladins fight for good and I support good

Paladins are typically considered as defining good in a variety of ways, but most of are quite separate from post-classical-liberal norms - because they must be, in order to be instinctively recognized as good.

The iconic paladin is a Kantian. Thats alien to the average sheltered westerner. Next up is is the utilitarian paladin - same thing, if less so. Then several interpretations that boil down to antique Christianity, antique manhood, or very old political/philosophical positions. Also not modern-friendly.

To be a paladin is to be something the world of SJWs abhors, and it is gloriously righteous.

>> No.36359244

>>36358995
I cant decide if I like Clerics or paladins better. Paladins have greathammers and clerics have that badass looking chainmail. Templar master race.

>> No.36359307

>>36359235
>The iconic paladin is a Kantian.

Frank Trollman, please go.

>> No.36359344

>>36356509
>Why does everyone hate these guys?
Because they keep telling me what to do with their holier than thou attitude. So I stole someone else's drink in a bar. That is NOT cause to lecture me for months on end on property rights.

>> No.36359366

I used to play paladin in everything. I still like them, a lot, but I am beginning to find other classes/roles to be more fun and engaging.

>> No.36359531

>>36359235
Paladins -are- SJWs. They're militant, fascist, privileged quite literally with divine power, and believe themselves to be the shepherds of civilization and the guardians of all morality.

>> No.36359690
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36359690

>>36358995
A cleric is the diet coke equivalent of a paladin.

>> No.36359846

>>36359235

>implying postmodernism is required for Social Justice warriors

c'mon now, this kind of shit just makes me think people don't know what postmodernism means and just substitute in "progressivism and moral degeneracy". Don't be those guys...

>> No.36359943
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36359943

>>36359846
Post modernism IS moral degeneracy. It's trying to say that there is no history, because there are no facts, and because there are no facts, all tradition is crazy invention and therefore society is based on A LIE.
Post modernists are goddamn dangerous filthy anti-science dirtbags and need to be round up and killed.

>> No.36359995

>>36359531
>privileged quite literally with divine power
Except it's something they can gain and lose. You aren't born a paladin.

>> No.36360065
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36360065

>>36359943

>postmodernists should be rounded up and killed

>> No.36360102

>>36360065
Okay... since when does /pol/ have the intellectual capacity to even know about post modernism?
I mean seriously, the anti /pol/ shit is starting to resemble Pogroms more than the actual /pol/ threads!

>> No.36360268
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36360268

I play my paladin as only strongly objecting to things against his moral code, but if they're insignificant or a necessary evil for the greater good, he allows the former with a scolding and the latter with atonement.
Currently he's tied up in the middle of an orcish camp wearing nothing but a bikini around a bunch of chained up women, and he hasn't fallen because there's no explicit rule against that as long as he doesn't purposely have sex with anyone.
His main goal is to generally help people with problems and kill evil necromancers.

Keep in mind that this campaign is mostly comedy and my argument is probably moot because of that

>> No.36360289

>>36360268
there's no problem with paladins fucking people unless you take a vow of chastity

>> No.36360325

>>36360102

Tbh the image isn't totally representative, since it's mainly attacking /pol/ for being racist.

But postmodernism is definitely a buzzword that a lot of that type of shithead uses because A) a lot of people have problems with postmodernism without B) knowing what it means but C) it can basically be used to describe "moral degeneracy" as well as any unfavorable modern movement.

So y'know, it's really interesting to me to talk about how the current societal trends against simple or even objective or even existing morality might fight against paladins being a thing, and it's even more interesting to think about how the idea of a paladin survives in or even is a part of that world.

What's NOT interesting and is honestly just shitposting is going "because society is degenerate and can't handle my trad values! fuck sjws!" Seriously. I see it every once in a while here and tbh it just makes me less interested in coming to /tg/. Keep that shit somewhere else.

>> No.36360331

>>36360289
Well it is a comedy campaign, maybe it's funnier that way

>> No.36360365

>>36359995
Divine power is a privilege in the more literal, less tumblrized sense - an entity selects a paladin for service and bestows power upon them. The power is not necessarily earned through effort like a wizard or even a fighter. When you become a paladin, you're simply elevated. It forms some circular logic with paladins being better than normal people because they are paladins. Depending on setting, of course.

>> No.36360375

>>36360331
The DM said it was the "Harem Tent" and I forgot to mention the Bikini bottom had Light cast on it.
The chained up women started to read in the "Rod of Light" 's light

>> No.36360382
File: 237 KB, 1068x1788, Haven - 02 Paladin Femaletcm4614458.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36360382

Paladin and Ranger are my two favorite classes
that martial and magic
Ranger if you want more skills
Paladin if you want more tanking

>> No.36360392
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36360392

>>36360268

"this sex crap again i swear to god".

"I'm going to have to do so much penance for this shit"

"ugh can we just move along I have orcs to smite"

>> No.36360411

>>36360325
I just hate post modernism because I study history.
Where do they get off saying there are no facts and historians are just projecting their own ideas on the past? Fuuuck them.

>> No.36360442

>>36358073
I guess if you through out the whole alignment restriction or allow some more flexibility like in 5e it's possible.

>> No.36360444

>>36356825

I might be wrong here, but didn't that guy have a point? Like, he shouldn't have fallen for not helping him, but technically there was merit in that guy's idea.

>> No.36360516

>>36360411
Historians are major proponents of post-modernism...

>> No.36360567

>>36356509
Mostly because their class is fucked. Not only are they designed for the DM to fuck them over, but they can also be fucked over if YOU don't live up to the ridiculous standards they're held to.

>> No.36360573

>>36360411

As someone else who studies history and isn't even a postmodernist, there's definitely a very nuanced conversation to have about this that requires a higher education level than I (or most likely most people on the internet) have.

>> No.36360627

>>36359235
>Moral clarity
Terry Goodkind pls go.

>> No.36360643

>>36360065
Hit a little too close to home, eh faggot?

>> No.36360652
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36360652

>>36360365
in 1e, the paladin had the highest entry requirements for any class. in a sense you're basically a fighter who also swears an oath to uphold a higher standard of conduct, so your abilities are earned on one side by training and hard work like a regular fighter, and on the other by self-discipline and morality.

you could make an argument that the power of a cleric is unearned, but in practice that's unlikely (the gods don't hand out sacred power to any bozo. except maybe the god of bozos, praise be to him).

>> No.36360674
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36360674

>>36360643
How do you figure you did anything at all.
Maybe you just puked out boring garbage on the internet and someone responded with a picture without a second thought.
Maybe you're not as smart as you think you are, maybe you're actually really backwards in your thinking and this 'Gets you off'

Or you know, whatever anything is possible

>> No.36360723

>>36360674

yeah basically you hit the nail on the head, nothing "hit close to home," I'm not really attached to post modernism as like, my personal identity. It's not like he insulted my mom. I'm just bored of people bringing their own shitty fringe political baggage into discussions that don't warrant it and derailing good discussions, as I further explained here >>36360325

>> No.36360771

>>36360382
Decent female armor. In all my days..

>> No.36360782

>>36360652
>filename
You mean Earth 2 Superman, because that definitely isn't KC.

>> No.36360786

>>36360516
Yeah, in the fucking 60's.
Keep up with the times anon, the current predominant theory is neo-realism, which combines elements of realism and post modernism. Mostly post modernisms subject matter, source criticism and criticism of bias, while taking realisms position of knoweable facts rather than PM position of history being a construct made up by historians.

>> No.36360822

>Anti-sex paladins
Was that because love detracts attention to your chosen deity or something?

>> No.36360886

>>36360573
>I study history
>post modernism is above my pay grade
Are you really timid or did you mean "I study history as an amateur"? Because otherwise, it's your goddamn job to argue Post modernism and other philosophy of knowledge concepts.

>> No.36360891

>>36360411
Either there are no facts or history is immutable and indisputable. No in-betweens. No half-measures.

Wait, no, that's retarded.

>> No.36360901

>>36360392
>In a party of about 5
>Going to infiltrate an orcish camp that's laying seige to a dwarven inn
>Literally just an inn in a canyon
>Me, the Paladin in the glowing bikini and a low int catfolk barbarian being the prisoners in a cage wagon
>3 other guys disguise as orcs, one half orc does the talking mostly
>I tell the catfolk barbarian to just meow instead of talking
>get into the camp, go towards where the command part is
>ride by some normal orcs
>party wants me to roll perform
>say that's against my paladin code (meaning mostly that it wasn't in the plan originally)
>orcs are mesmerized by my 16 cha "rod of light" regardless
>get held up by half orcs who ask where they got these prisoners and why they didn't kill them
>half orc in the party tells them
>"We found this paladin making sexy poses in the woods, so naturally we tied him up"
>half orc guard buys it and orders my paladin to be taken out of the cart
>I don't know whats going on because orcish conversation
>get pulled out and tied to a cross in the 'Harem tent'
>half orc in the party follows for convinence
>try to intimidate guards by telling them my glowing bikini is cursed and will kill them if they don't let me go
>roll badly
>they roll higher with their eyes

The next session is in like 2 weeks, what should I do?

>> No.36360909

>>36360822
When did paladins become jedi.

>> No.36360910

>>36360822

My guess is that it's because the Catholics did it first, and a ton of fantasy religion is basically just Catholicism with some extra bits stuck onto it for flavor.

>> No.36360917

>>36360674
Or maybe I'm another poster and called you out on your retarded image macro.

>backwards thinking

You a Marxist, to boot?

>> No.36360952

>>36360891
Yes. That's why we combined the two and came up with neo realism instead of Post M. and Realism.

It's pretty great, it has the best of both worlds and gets rid of that dumbass constructed history and inter subjectivity of fact the Post Modernists loved so much, and uses the useful shit they came up with.

>> No.36360979

>>36356509
Paladins are supposed to be morally superior, which unfortunately attracts people who think they can just do whatever they want and it'll be morally A-OK. Too many people think that they're morally superior because they're paladins, when it's really the other way around--you get to be a paladin because you're morally superior.

>> No.36360987
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36360987

>>36360782
i didn't name the image.

anyway, it is kingdom come superman, just not in kingdom come. same outfit.

>> No.36360996

>>36360901
Take one, or two or three, for the team.
Or try to cast smite with your sphincter when they penetrate you.

>> No.36360999

>>36360901

Trick a dumb lookin orc guard into releasing you w/ a promise of even sweeter sex, go to town on orc encampment.

>> No.36361004
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36361004

>>36360917
See you're trying to be witty, but you fisted yourself out the gate when you assumed we're the same person. Which is funny because that's one of the points you make.

See 4chan still can be fun everyone.

>> No.36361046
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36361046

>>36360917

oh my god

>accusing people of being Marxists in fucking /tg/ as a prejorative

who cares about this dumb bullshit

>> No.36361055
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36361055

>>36361004
>>36360917

>> No.36361098

>>36356762
I like my paladin like i like my women: With a Stick up their assed

>> No.36361167

>>36356509
Because when the town was completely abandoned due to a Hydra and Dragoning duking it out in town square, the Paladin was the only one who prevented me from looting all the gold I could find.

>> No.36361183

>>36361055
That was three years ago and people are still assuming it's the same guy, could you please not

>> No.36361187

>>36360573

Yeah, the issue is that history gets fucked over and over against by those who preach revisionism and relativism, when the best historians have moved past that into an understanding that all sides should be discussed, but not necessarily equally, and that facts come before feelings and hunches.

Niall Ferguson's Virtual History is one of my favorite works to find out those who don't understand the nuances of history. Ferguson presents a historical change, then uses strong historical facts, precedent, psychological and sociological analysis, etc. to form a counterfactual argument.

Most armchair historians freak the fuck out because it is too dense, but Ferguson is quite sound, and makes great arguments.

Then there's Robert Crowley. Crowley is the counterfactual movement's answer to Jared Diamond. His arguments are pop history, no big words, and make giant leaps based on feelings and little understanding of the events preceding the event.

Guess who sold a startlingly high amount of copies?

>> No.36361226
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36361226

>history major
>everyone flocks to medieval studies
>everyone in the field is desperately wanting to take Knights down a notch by characterizing them as anachronistic white colonial imperialists

Get pretty tired of this m8

>> No.36361269

>>36361226
I feel your pain.
I somehow got into an all male, all white class, and we're all busy taking the overly PC teachers down a peg.
Our grades are weirdly dependent on the political inclination of our teachers.

>> No.36361277

>>36361167
that's one case where I back the Pally. STAY ON TASK!

captcha: 187

>> No.36361346

>>36361226
white colonial imperialists is obv wrong, but I don't think there's anything wrong in pointing out that they were more or less a dedicated martial caste with all of the negative characteristics that come with that

>> No.36361373

>>36361346
But that's already been firmly established mate.
>negative characteristics of a martial caste
Like what? Most societies that had them thrived.

>> No.36361419

>>36359995
>Except it's something they can gain and lose.
That's what makes it a privilege.

>> No.36361457

>>36361419
not in the sense it's being used in that discussion (the way it's used in the phrase, for example, "white privilege").

>> No.36361461
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36361461

>>36361226

>Studied history in the late 90s
>Staff is chock full of older white guys from all walks of life, two cool black guys, and two female tenure tracks
>Staff was well-versed in their fields, carried themselves well in courses
>Go back for a 'alumni as students' weekend
>All the departments giving courses
>History staff is all upper middle class females all along the rainbow of colors except for one of the black profs and two of the white profs
>mfw reading the 'syllabus' and seeing one of the seminars is on the history of menstruation in pre-Colombian society

Went out for drinks with one of the white profs and lamented it, as he explained that the new female dean of humanities was just stacking the departments.

>> No.36361467
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36361467

>>36360996
I could buff my rectum to do +6 damage and be a magic weapon

>Let's go fuck that paladin we captured
>*Crunch*

>> No.36361516

>>36361467
You would be so Holy you would literally shit justice.

>> No.36361536

>>36361373
I'm mostly talking in this context about things like chivalry and codes of honor being fairly divorced from the actual conduct of knights, and much more ideas that existed in the culture and intellectual justifications for existing social conditions rather than actual observed codes of conduct. They may not be colonialists but neither were they particularly romantic.

Don't want to get into explicitly political question of whether martial castes are good or bad thing.

>> No.36361544

>>36356509
Because nobody let's me have my true neutral paladin who has detect good or evil but doesn't know which they are just that they are one. Fuck having to be lawful good if I'm the paladin of a true neutral diety.

That's why I personally hate them the lack of from 1st level ability to do gods work.

>> No.36361545

>>36361516
Alternativley I could buff the other side and be a helicopter of justice

>> No.36361550

>>36361269
>Our grades are weirdly dependent on the political inclination of our teachers.
>weirdly

Professors are still people, and are still subject to all of the inherent biases and cognitive shortcuts that the rest of us are.

Most of them are smart so the odds are higher that they'll be able to see they're being biased than the odds for the general population, but in the end there will still be a lot of them that'll mark you down regardless of what you do if you happen to hold an opinion that differs radically from their own and make that known to them.

>> No.36361565

>>36361544

Ah, true neutral. The diet mountain dew of alignments.

>> No.36361585

>>36361545
Don't you mean heliCOCKter of justice?

>> No.36361589

>>36361545
Can you buff your orgasm so that it fires at a fraction of the speed of light?

>> No.36361602

>>36361536
Alright, but who the fuck actually believes knights were romantic heroes rather than brutal warriors other than 12 year old girls?
And having codes of conduct is good. Sure, in practice they aren't going to be followed, but it does mean you can punish people who go too far out of line. It's all politics.

>> No.36361609

>>36361516
>Shit Justice Warrior

print it!

>> No.36361632
File: 75 KB, 525x695, Chivalry.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36361632

>>36361602

Although with some tweaking the code of chivalry makes for an excellent paladin's oath you can have on hand and point at meaningfully when your GM tries to play silly buggers.

>> No.36361663

>>36361632
That is clearly some sort of modern interpretation.
A genuine medieval oath of chivalry would be far more poetic for ease of memorization, and filled with references to god and duty.

>> No.36361665

>>36361269

>>36361550 (cont'd)

And then you have cases like >>36361461 where the professors aren't even trying to be unbiased and are actually in the position BECAUSE of political nepotism, and the person who hired them expects them to shit on those with sufficiently different viewpoints and/or make the class into a nice echo chamber for their own.

>> No.36361673

>>36361632
>Avoid cheating
>Avoid torture
I love how these are "avoid" instead of "never"

>> No.36361712
File: 26 KB, 374x374, 1407200901412.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36361712

Would've sworn the middle ages were a terrible time to be alive for the average joe in medieval Europe.

>> No.36361731
File: 2.87 MB, 1913x813, megamind.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36361731

>>36361589
I would have to Lay On Hands first

But I do have the necessary spells to potentially be able to pull of something similar to this, especially when I have preform (guitar) +7

>> No.36361785

>>36361712
Not really. Between 1000 and 1350 Europe was in massive cultural economic growth. City states and large nations developed. Economies grew as did shipping and tech. Earliest Florentine and Flemish renaissances appeared.
Then the black plague came to town and made everything shit till the early 1400's which was then followed by another, more lasting, renaisance.
And before 1000, in the migration period, you'd be poor and subject to lost of migrating pillagers and vikings. On the plus side, even odds that you were also pillaging.

>> No.36361804

>>36361712
It depends on what time and place you're talking about, and what time and place you're comparing it to.

>> No.36361874
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36361874

>>36361565
Just because I want to purge the world of anyone that has an opinion I can't be a paladin?

That what I see alignment as somebody trying to push an opinion evil peps are all slavery is a good idea. Good is we should share. Neutral why don't you just fuck up with what I should do Gary and bake your own god damn bread!

>> No.36361967

>>36361874
Why would a God of Minding Your Own Business ever feel compelled to invest clerics or paladins? Unless they acknowledge the hypocrisy/paradox of their portfolio, in which case having a Paladin that could smite himself would be pretty hilarious.

>> No.36361973

>>36361874

Neutral's being too weak-willed to be good and too lazy to be evil.

>> No.36361986

>>36356509
People always hate the hero who can be everything they can't.

>> No.36362030

>>36361967
Of course that is the end of the paladin of minding your own businesses acts. Smiting himself for meddling in others affairs. .. but first the paladin must come to this understanding... it is the true test of the true neutral paladin!

>> No.36362813

>>36361346
Knights weren't universally terrible, in fact some were pretty great human beings

I was reading accounts of how some knights (depending on where you lived) would attend Jewish weddings and funerals and counted jews among their friends. Quite touching in a way

>> No.36363027

>>36356509

They have usurped the role of the Knight and constrain the concept.

The original Paladin is just a pious and loyal Knight, given godly favor in special moments for their honorable and courageous acting. RPG Paladins are just moralistic and arrogant Battle Mages, with a pissy Accountant controlling their magic supply.

>>36361226

The "white colonial" is bullshit, but they literally worked as enforcers for empires.

>> No.36363052

>>36362813
>counted jews among their friends
Well yeah. You don't want to piss off the guy you owe thirty suits of armour and a small town to, do you?

>> No.36363261

>>36356878
Or some people just want to play characters that aren't confined to a single moral dimension and it gets irritating when some punce keeps trying to boss the party around and eliminates options for solving problems just because "muh smite evil." Paladins are just buzzkills. And I don't even play as an edgelord with other edgelords, it's just more fun/easier to do some bad things to get shit done.

I would find it a lot more enjoyable if popular systems expanded paladins into being crusader's for a set of beliefs, not just "goodness."

>> No.36363346

NOTE: A very tiny proportion of people don't play their paladins this way.

Because as soon as a paladin joins the party, he becomes an authoritarian who thinks its his right to tell the party members what to do and every last paladin has his own subjective opinion on what he feels good and evil to be about (ironically).

There is also an extremely high chance any given paladin will be played by a 40kid who will bring in retardedly grimdark elements.

>> No.36363529

>>36363346

My own play experience suggests this is a bullshit stereotype alongside the player who rolls up a fighter being unable to plan or roleplay their way out of a paper bag, but I don't doubt that there are people who do do this. I strongly doubt they are anything but an annoying minority, however.

That's like saying most people that want to be wizards want to be true neutral assholes with no team spirit who expect to be the party leader because muh INT scores and don't get that actions have consequences even if you're magic.

>> No.36363592

>>36363346
Real talk and a conversation I'd be interested having - how can one play a paladin and be really into roleplaying it *without* this happening? Is it basically impossible as long as the other players are the average "idgaf about talking about morality" players (regardless of their level of roleplay)?

I'd love to play a paladin with all the conflict and interesting questions involved but not spoil other's fun, and while I could see that being possible in like a group where everyone's doing that with their own characters, any other group sorta has to focus on that if it happens regardless of the palain's wishes...

>> No.36363615

>>36363592

(sidenote am hyper noob, basically can someone teach me how to paladin cuz I like them in theory but don't want to be that guy)

>> No.36363661

>>36363615

Obviously you shouldn't play a Pally in a party that wants to play a bunch of CN-at-best types, but when you're with a mostly good party, the bro paladin who is about being a good guy and protecting his friends and the innocent more than moralizing is often popular.

>> No.36363703
File: 115 KB, 721x1108, dark_souls_fan_art_by_mikrob-d7lwgec.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36363703

My paladin isn't very rigid with his rules - he follows a god of Justice, but he believes the universe is ultimately fair and just and everyone will be punished or rewarded for their actions in the end. However, if they are punished at all depends on their actions. So he'll wait until an evil person does something bad to make sure they are justly being punished, instead of spamming Detect Evil and killing them before they ever do anything wrong.

Am I bad paladin for being more loose and less hard-lined with my approach? I wanted to make him a paladin that had a hopeful, somewhat naive view of the world, along with an amazing amount of patience, but sometimes I worry I stray too far from what makes a paladin a paladin.

>> No.36363779

>>36363529
>alongside the player who rolls up a fighter being unable to plan or roleplay their way out of a paper bag

The closest I can think of to hearing this stereotype was of a 2e fighter with 18.100 str and this was about 14 years ago.

>That's like saying most people that want to be wizards want to be true neutral assholes with no team spirit who expect to be the party leader because muh INT scores and don't get that actions have consequences even if you're magic.

No, it would be like saying that Class With Behavior Conduct tends to apply behavior conduct a lot.

Comparisons vs non aligned classes fall flat as they really don't have that tendency. The paladin has a real restriction on his behavior, but its usually leveraged to afford him a high degree of control.

>>36363592
A good question. See, its at least 49% based off how the DM interprets alignments.

If the DM, like Gygax, has a permissive attitude about alignments, then you're largely golden, so long as the PCs aren't skeezy.

tl;dr its partially player and DM dependent (and yes I realize this is unhelpful)

>> No.36363792

>>36363703

That honestly sounds more like a REAL paladin than the detect-smite guy, who clearly only skimmed the manual.

Your job is to strive to personify goodness and justice as your personal code defines it, not to just smite anything that pings or be a wet blanket or sanctimonious prick to your party members. The paladin's code is the paladin's alone. Not being a paladin is not something to be criticized, but doing something evil in front of one is.

>> No.36363814

>>36363661

What do you think the best bro-paladin type would look like in a case where bad shit is going down due to the party?

All my friends that I'm likely to roleplay with are sort of the middling players, they're into roleplay an more complex ideas/situations than just "punch monsters" but they're not like... you know, they're not signing up for an exploration of morality in a meaningless universe here. Our last game really encouraged back stabbing so when conflicting morals came up the answer eventually was the party splitting and infighting for a few weeks before coming back together in the face of the BBEG, but, y'know. Unless you're really aware of the fun level others are having it's risky as fuck to be the guy to leave the caravan and blow up the supplies, socially speaking.

Not gonna lie, I'm not the most socially capable guy.

>> No.36363823
File: 72 KB, 1238x243, PubertyIsRough.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36363823

>> No.36363832

>>36363703
I really like this as the guy who was talking about being a noob above.

>> No.36363884

>>36360444
It certainly wasn't a Lawful Good stance on things, because in essence he was murdering people. If he asked them to do it rather than just straight out killed them, maybe.

>> No.36363889

>>36363615

Also, try to get a bead on your GM's attitude. The Paladin causes problems mostly because some GMs are fucking trigger-happy with the big "off" switch on your power and will contrive any circumstances they can to try and flip it. Just the KNOWLEDGE they can take away your powers is an irresistible temptation to some GMs to try doing it once, and usually when they set out to make you fall things are going to go downhill fast because most people don't really understand what constitutes an offense worthy of violating the paladin code.

If your GM is cool, you shouldn't have a big problem, but it's just not worth it if the GM is going to try and use the flavor of the class to make it a "gotcha" class in a way they would not consider appropriate with other classes.

People don't tell the Monk to become an ex-monk because he did not turn a rogue companion in to the police or the Barbarian to become an ex-Barbarian for cooperating with an authority figure, but god forbid a paladin ever isn't perfect or BOOF, no powers.

>> No.36363955

>>36363889

To be honest, my reaction to an unfair Fall would most likely to roll play it as a "realization that the Gods are more stringent than I thought, gotta try harder". Satisfies both my roll playing urge and also my sorta-that-guyish urge to turn my playing logic against dickish DMs

source - had an unfair dm when I was playing a sorta barbarian warrior guy, made sure to be quite clear about how I was circumventing his plans after I had enough. Almost broke friendship but mainly because all the other players were behind me on that.

Mainly why I'm interested in learning how to play a good character without MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE FRICTION again tbh

>> No.36363956

>>36363823
>All Neckbeards who force Paladins to fall are Blackguards, Paladins who have fallen

>> No.36363982
File: 73 KB, 640x640, Bahamut_holy_symbol.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36363982

Because, OP, the Paladin is right (specifically LG Paladins). The players are edgy grimdark assholes who want to live out their sadistic fantasies in the game, and the paladin is the one who says "No, what you're doing is wrong" to his own friends and allies. The paladin is right and the players can't stand being told they're wrong.

>> No.36364049

>>36363703
My paladin's God is the non-canonical Communo, God of communism. Chaotic good, he works with my(his) CE companions and sometimes does evil things because he understands necessary evils, and just believes that so long as he is doing net good and doesn't go against his admittedly ambiguous paladin code, things are fine.

We're playing pretty fast and loose with the system however. I have a perk called "Share the Pain" that redirects 10% pf the damage I take back at my attacker/target of my choosing.

>> No.36364055
File: 6 KB, 167x144, 1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36364055

>>36363982
Is cockblocking all your friends and preventing them from enjoying a life that's impossible to have in the real world (in their own weird way) a sadistic fantasy?

>> No.36364082

>>36361461
That is fucking disheartening.

>> No.36364119

>>36364055

No. It's being right.
If I were playing an Evil campaign and one of my players were to rape the elf hostage and murder him I'd pull them aside and tell them to cut that shit out. There is right and there is wrong, and even in roleplaying, evil must be punished.

>> No.36364366

>>36364119
I can totally agree with rape being a bad thing, but there's a difference between how you feel out of character and how you feel in character.

If your character does not like that shit in character, even if they're evil, sure, take that guy aside and chew him out. But if they don't care, they don't care. You can be wrong instead of right.

>> No.36364372

>>36364055
>Is cockblocking all your friends and preventing them from enjoying a life that's impossible to have in the real world
>A life that's impossible to have in the real world

No, being an evil dickbag is very possible in the real world, it just takes more than most people are willing to give.

Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil are both essentially sociopathy, and people with those characteristics typically do quite well for themselves if they can keep their true nature under wraps.

You are correct in that if they group dynamics are such that the rest of the group regularly conflicts with the paladin on what course of action should be taken, the paladin should either make a character that fits in better or go find another game.

>> No.36364434

>>36364372
I meant more out of this world sort of evil things, like creating armies of zombies, leading a band of mercenaries to overthrow a kingdom, or turning the nobility of a city into vampires.

>> No.36364449

>>36364082

Yeah. We had every part of the economic spectrum from a guy who was a railrider who worked his way into a college to the son of a pretty prominent local 'he owns the state' businessman, and they all got along.

What I saw at the faculty mixer was just sadness and catty infighting. Seriously, the bitches had cliques. None of the camraderie of 'hey, lets all go to the faculty/student party and drink and shoot the breeze with everyone' that was there even a couple decades ago.

Getting old anon. Getting old and sad.

>> No.36364529
File: 169 KB, 720x525, Bro Dee Walker.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36364529

>>36360987
Based Saint Walker.
This is how I Paladin.

>> No.36364796

>>36364119
Nothing is really wrong with rape in an evil campaign. The PCs will do much worse before they're through.

The main concern in an evil campaign is keeping the PCs focused and not eating each other alive, figuratively and literally.

>> No.36364816
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36364816

Does anyone else collect posts and shit for inspo regarding character ideals? I don't really have any for paladins but it'd be interesting to get a "paladin-y wisdom" thread going.

>> No.36365002

>>36356509
The same reason people hate Hall Monitors, the Police, and People who play only on Hard or Expert.

Paladins hold themselves to a higher standard. They are better, morally, than the average man. And, too often, they try and force their party to do the same. And that hurts. It's easy to sink low, to take the money and look the other way. That is what the majority wants to do. And the Paladin can't. At the very least, you perform your acts knowing your companion is saddened by your actions. At worst, he acts as your mother mixed with a cop, refusing to let you take the easy way.

He limits and controls you. Why does he do this? Because he doesn't want to lose you. A paladin is forbidden to consort or work with those of blackened heart. And as he watches yours slowly tarnish, he fears the day you've gone too far, and become the next monster he must hunt.

He is the reminder that the easy way can carry a high price.


Actually, it's because most people like acting like monstrous douchebags, and paladins don't let them. Combine this with a lot of DMs being stupid about the idea of falling, that one error or decision is enough to break you, and they become 'roleplay cockcblocks' that then fail their own tests of purity, because the DM is an idiot who thinks goodness is like the South's ideal of Racial purity, and a single drop of oil pollutes a sea of good. It's the same problem that hurts (canonically supported in D&D) Good Necromancers: because raising the Undead is an Evil spell, DMs think "whoops, once you cast it, you lose." Meanwhile, Dragon Magazine had articles discussing how LG Necromancers got to use the abilities of Undead to help them slay the Undead. (Vampires can't dominate Ghouls. So hand one a flask of holy water, and a mirror, and boom, best back up you can get.)

>> No.36365058
File: 306 KB, 1240x1176, lessons.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36365058

>>36364816
I got this one. I know there are more.

>> No.36365060

>>36365002
People don't hate the police and hall monitors because they hold themselves to higher standards anon. If anything, with the amount of crazy violent corrupt cops, it's the opposite.

They dislike them because they tell people what to do, sometimes enforcing rules unfairly or arbitrarily.

>> No.36365139

>>36365060

Although that parallel falls down with the paladin, as the point of the class is that they ARE that good otherwise they wouldn't have the powers they possess.

Wizards draw their power from their intellectual understanding of magic. Barbarians, from their physcial might and berserker rage. Sorcerers, from force of personality. Clerics, from their dedication to the gods.

Paladins get their powers from being devoted, completely and utterly, to the principles of Good.

>> No.36365164

>>36365060
Weirdly, it is, actually.

We get mad at them because they ARE held to a higher standard, and all too often, they're failing to meet even the lower standard.

That and I totally went off on a different thought train than I started, so the beginning is a little off.

I was going to go on the idea of people not liking being FORCED to obey the rules. People like rules, right up until they don't. And they think "Well, these should bend for me, right now." But the rules don't. BUT, if there's no one around to enforce them, it feels like they do. So we mentally get "Okay, the rules can bend UNLESS those guys are around." And having a benefit removed feels a lot like punishment.

>> No.36365196

>>36365139
They can be that good and hold themselves to higher standards. Doesn't mean they can't be enforcing rules unfairly or abritrarily.
Cultural differences alone could account for problems. Ever heard of ethnocentrism? That would be an issue in a medieval like culture.

Kind of like how emptying your plate can be polite in one country and a mortal insult in another.

>> No.36365238

>>36365164
No one feels like we should be allowed to commit murders and it's tottaly fine unless the cops are around.
I'll grant you, there'll be things like me feeling it's fine to eat the remaining cake someone else brought to a party and that technically being thievery, and being called out on that by a cop with a stick up his ass would really be annoying.
I guess what I'm saying is is that Paladins should mind their own business outside serious issues.

>> No.36365262

>>36360996
I once made a Magus that was going to be raped by a troll after the group was captured (mid day, so she still had a bunch of her spells). In retaliation, she let the troll stick it in, made her concentration check, and did an Intensified Energy Adapted (fire) Shocking Grasp on him with her vagina, and not only burned the troll's dick off, but almost killed him outright. She then proceeded to stomp him the rest of the way to death before taking the troll's keys and busting everyone else out.

>>36363261
Funny that you mention crusaders, since the Tome of Battle for 3.5 actually has a Paladin 2.0 that does pretty much that. They don't even have to follow a deity, just their own set of beliefs, though if you want to be True Neutral, you have to worship a god of that alignment, since the zeal and dedication it takes to be a Crusader doesn't allow for that kind of indecisiveness.

And, in all honesty, Paladins are some of my favorite characters to play, because of a lot of the fluff involved being so mutable. Once made in a 3.P game a Paladin who followed Wee Jas, had low Wisdom and a near-godly Charisma. She basically acted like the team cheerleader and won a lot of arguments basically by convincing a lot of the bad guys, usually orcs, goblins, brigands and such, that things would be a lot better for everyone if they just discussed it over a pot of tea or a pint of beer or something. She also considered herself something of a travel agent for the dead, and really didn't want to send people on eternal 'vacations' when they hadn't earned them yet.

To put it simply, she was proof that 'lawful' is not the same as 'sound of mind', and pretty much everyone, even the team's CN Rogue, thought having her around was a blast.

>> No.36365270

>>36365196

As I understand it, a Paladin is under no obligation to enforce unjust laws. In fact, if laws inhibit good and pervert justice, the paladin's moral obligation would be to work towards changing them, not enforcing them.

>> No.36365302

>>36365270
My point is more that what the Paladin perceives as just isn't necessarily agreed upon in whatever country he happens to be in.
Imagine for instance he is in a middle eastern analogue country, and a woman is to be stoned to death for adultery. The people all perceive this as just, but in the Paladin's culture, it would be unjust.

What justice does he enforce? Would he be practical and die to an enraged mob, or would he be an ethnocentric bastard and project his values on another culture?

>> No.36365325

>>36365302
Sorry, that should be Practical and NOT die to an enraged mob (i.e. let the local customs prevail).

>> No.36365363

>>36365302
depends on the Paladin

>> No.36365390

>>36365363
In that case the paladin's isn't an implacable enforcer of justice but just as subject to morals and personal bias as the next guy.

Meaning the pretentious cunt has no moral authority to be calling me out over stealing that guy's drink.

>> No.36365393

>>36365302

Pretty shitty hero to not do what you can to save someone from being murdered by a mob right in front of you, don't you think? You don't need to be a paladin to feel some obligation to intercede on the behalf of the individual about to get a lethal dose of mob "justice".

>> No.36365394

>>36365302

If the paladin is guided by a God's justice, he should enforce what he knows to be just. A smart paladin would enforce what is reasonably just and will actually achieve good results - as sad as it is, intervening in that situation might make things worse by pissing off the whole area.

The idea of the ethnocentric bastard projecting his values doesn't really exist if you have 100% guarantee that you are objectively following God's morals, since those values would have to be universal. Others might perceive him this way, but he isn't truthfully.

The interesting question is can you have a paladin archtype who knows he does not follow a God's objective morality? That paladin would have to confront these sorts of issues.

>> No.36365425

>>36365390
see, there's one problem

in d&d and other fantasy, Gods exist. They are tangible, real beings that have actual impact upon the world.

The paladins are literally enforcer's of their god's will. That pretentious cunt has all the moral authority. Because he Authority comes from an ACTUAL divine being.

>> No.36365445

>>36365302
I would save the woman, tell the law enforcement there that if she has done something bad enough to be killed for it, she's not worth the time of the other good, law-abiding folk of the place, and then do my best to make sure that, when I get her away from the place, that she isn't going to be like when you let a rabbit run free into the wild after having saved it from a trap just for it to get eaten by a falcon. Nobody needs to get killed, and the woman is out of everyone's hair.

>> No.36365499

>>36356509
because edgelords are disgusted by the concept of a true champion of righteousness

they like characters who reflect the darkness in their tortured souls, like Coldsteel the Hedgehog

I mean don't you know that only stupid kiddy stories feature saintly characters and everything should be like GoT where the characters are all deep and dark and complex and so grown-up!

>> No.36365502

>>36365425
>That pretentious cunt has all the moral authority. Because he Authority comes from an ACTUAL divine being.
Well, they can't have ALL the moral authority just because they're gods. There are many gods that clearly aren't supposed to have all the authority in that area. (At least, I personally wouldn't go to Gruumsh for all my moral imperatives.) And there are usually several different flavors of Good to be had among the gods, who probably disagree sometimes about what oughta be against the law and what oughtn't be.

>> No.36365505

>>36365390

It's a kind of hollow accusation that the holy warrior whose benign god demonstrably exists has no moral authority based on something mortal culture wants to say is right or wrong.

Also, people that figure you shouldn't bother with morality at all if you can't find a morality that's perfect for everyone are usually the kind of people that deserve a paladin calling them out.

>> No.36365531

>>36365393
>mob justice
I guess someone doesn't know his Talmudic law/Sharia law.
It's more than mob justice. It's local law and custom, enforced by values held by all layers of society and codified in jurisprudence.

So is it justice to apply your values on a different society? Or is it mere ethnocentric feeling of superiority? When is something Just and when is it mob justice? isn't saying that this woman is condemned unjustly a condemnation of the death penalty in general, seeing as you reject the local legal system?

>> No.36365546

Too many people play Paladins very poorly. They play them as dumb shitheads who force their religious ideals upon fucking everything they meet and all they ever want to do is HUDURR SMEYET EBILS. I've only seen one Paladin played that wasn't a fucking 2-dimensional KILL ALL EBILS type character and it was glorious.

In short: being a Paladin doesn't mean you're a cunt, people just think that's how to roleplay one.

>> No.36365551

>>36365502
yes and.

>> No.36365599

>>36365394
What if the local have a different, equally powerful god with his own paladins who does condone this action? Would the Paladin have to power through and defend his gods values regardless?

>>36365445
>nobody needs to get killed
So project your own values it is!
What do you think the reaction of a hundreds strong mob would be to what they would perceive as a perversion of justice? They'd let you walk away? NO! If you're lucky, you'd end up in jail. Unlucky, you'd be stoned to death (but you can draw comfort from the fact that you were unjustly and illegally killed)

>> No.36365617

>>36365599
HOLY WAR.

>> No.36365664

>>36365617
Well, now, see, that's the first sensible answer I've seen.
Follow up question: Would you DEUS VULT it right up in the street or would you plan more carefully?

>> No.36365704

>>36365664
No obviously as lawful good we would first have long diplomatic talks, and then to resolve the conflict with honor, if it could not be resolved with talk, a single duel between champions of the orders, not to the death of course, would determine who was more righteous in the eyes of the gods.

If the conflict remains after that, clearly its time for Deus Vult.

>> No.36365712

>>36365599
Re: the first thing, the answer depends entirely on the rest of the setting and is really a case by case thing. If the equally powerful God is like the God of murderrape then yeah, basically, because this is a universe with a clear good and evil. In a universe where the values of the gods are just as arbitrary as the gods of men you enter into my latter scenario - yeah, the paladin's gonna have to start dealing with moral nihilism and how to overcome it, because it's super clear that morals are just based on powerful creatures.

Come to think of it a sufficiently navel gazing paladin could come to that conclusion even if there is one God, so that might be an interesting crisis of faith story in the future. Thanks for the suggestion.

>> No.36365723

>>36365704
So you accept sacrificing this woman in the name of the greater good, negligating your duties as a paladin of justice then?

>> No.36365742

>>36365723
what? No. She will be given asylum until the conflict is resolved.

>> No.36365752

>>36365664

I notice the biases players bring to the table seems to indicate Paladins bring out the Perfect Solution Fallacy in force re: striving for good in all things.

If there is no perfect, objective morality that applies equally to everyone, it seems like the next reaction is "fuck it," followed by grimderp "Lawful Good isn't actually good" shenanagans rather than "that's a complicated matter you are obligated to treat with the respect it deserves while following your obligation to your conscience and, depending on the situation, the values of your god to find the best solution you can, perfect or not."

A high-level paladin is more than capable of cowing or dispersing a crowd and meeting with their spiritual brothers from another celestial mother under Diplomacy rather than warfare. He is being remiss in his duties if he does not examine the options he has available.

>> No.36365773

>>36365742
How exactly do you convince the baying mob and the court officials backing them of this?
Would you engage in complex legal and religious rhetoric you dont know a lick about OR
Would you engage in fancy sword fights across the city streets, clearly starting shit between the gods?

>> No.36365784

>>36365773
honestly any mod baying for someone's head when they are clearly innocent is clearly not lawful good, and the paladins defending it should fall for following such unjust laws.

>> No.36365810

>>36365784

That's not how paladins falling works

>> No.36365822
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36365822

>>36365784
>>36365810

DEUS VULT it is.

>> No.36365844

>>36365784
>honestly any mod baying for someone's head when they are clearly innocent
Here you go with your values again! I guess we should bring in some law officials to protect the law abbiding mob from this crazy terrorist over here.

>> No.36365868

>>36365773
>Would you engage in complex legal and religious rhetoric you dont know a lick about

>Being a paladin
>Not training in Religion and Diplomacy

>> No.36365885

>>36365752
>A high-level paladin is more than capable of cowing or dispersing a crowd
Says who? These are some HIGHLY leveled camel breeders and potters right here. Some even have prestige classes in weaving!

>> No.36365903

>>36365868
Yeah, but it's your religion, not theirs.
What, do you think a christian theologian can argue the talmud or the hadiths?

>> No.36365927

>>36365599
Note that part of the procedure is to talk with the authorities and thereby get the ones who have a say in the matter to let her go. Also, if it is, as the situation suggests, just the one Paladin against all of the townsfolk, there's probably not going to be much of a problem because (meta for the win) by the time a Paladin is strong enough to go adventuring all on his lonesome, an entire army of those guys would be roflstomped with nonlethal damage, or he'd just whip out some Diplomancy or Intimidation checks and convince everyone that what they're doing is stupid, unjust, and really nothing more than a waste of their time and energy.

Besides, one thing that seems to be forgotten is that Paladins, while they are supposed to be both good and lawful at the same time whenever possible, if forced to choose one, they choose moral values over ethical ones.

>> No.36365945

>>36363261
So a 4e paladin?

Got it.

>> No.36365980

>>36365002
>people who hate the way paladins are played hate the police

Eh, different things. Cops enforce the law, paladins almost entirely work in "international waters" where there is no particular law. ie., they make the majority of moral decisions themselves.

There is very, very little as far as what paladins are *guaranteed* to do and the main commonality is that they believe they're always in the right, so there's not much room for compromise.

Combine this with how on /tg/ a lot of people subscribe to MR RAGE's "oh yeah a paladin can do evil, he just has to have self confidence," ie. 40k style protags as paladins. Yuck.

>> No.36365984

>>36365903

Christian theologians are 2nd-level experts. They probably don't have a +40 to Diplomacy.

>> No.36366128

>>36365531
There is really only two ways to view the situation:

1. With objective morality, there is no "ethnocentric" component to it -- you're right and they're wrong, period.
2. With subjective morality, you are still entitled to follow your subjective morals and stop them -- as far as you need concern yourself, you're right and they're wrong, period.

In both cases, their opinion is irrelevant aside from their capacity to enforce it.

>> No.36366180

>>36365903
The religion skill inherently refers to all religions in context of D&D and anything remotely similar, dude. Hence why not all paladins and clerics, afaik, have religion knowledge.

Hell, in the D&D perspective, even if just refers to your god, a Christian paladin with knowledge religion would STILL be also well versed in the talmud and koran, because, again, same god.

>> No.36366231

>>36366180
Incidentally its probably a good idea to read le Talmud and Koran and Bible regardless due to them being culturally important works instrumental to how a lot of people think.

>> No.36366236

So why isn't your next d&d campaign about a holy war between paladin orders

>> No.36366355

>>36366236
Because D&D should be PC focused, not NPC focused.

That being said, I think conflicts between paladins are more interested where the focus isn't theological but secular: mortal kingdoms at war which have similar values and paladins being required to fight each other on the basis of fealty to their lord and land.

Simply because holy wars are not likely to have much room for individual interpretation.

>> No.36366463

>>36366236

Because a setting with several organizations made up exclusively of lawful good individuals making war with each other and who will not negotiate in a game where getting in touch with the gods is well within the power of a cleric is going to require a ridiculous amount of contrivance and disrespect for what Lawful Good means.

>> No.36366537

>>36366236
Because there's rarely an obvious evil in that case, unless some of the paladins worship evil gods. The whole thing can turn into a metaphor by mean DMs into all religion being evil and not being able to solve anything because mortal failures.

As well, that honestly requires the party caring. You can set up each religious order all you want, make sure they understand both sides or prepare that they'll learn about both sides, but if they want to help Marvin the wizard get his necklace back that's what they're going to do and you'll have to make your campaign about that.. Don't chain your party down, maaan.

>> No.36366615

>>36366463
>several organizations made up exclusively of lawful good individuals making war with each other and who will not negotiate in a game where getting in touch with the gods is well within the power of a cleric

Its entirely reasonable that war between such people could happen, without contrivance or disrespect for what lawful good means, just they are unlikely to fight for religious reasons.

Actually there aren't many holy wars, per se. Even the sunni/shiite conflict is basically just over secession drama BS. They are usually going to be about who owns where.

So if we base things off the sunni/shiite dispute, or the crusades or such, any of that is perfectly reasonable as a basis for lawful good 'holy' wars (not that either faction was necessarily LG).

When one goes with the by the book definition of Lawful Good ("law and order and greatest good for greatest number of people" in 1e, "good person as defined by society" in 5e) instead of the lolmeme definition ("perfect ideal person with no faults"), tons of room for conflict is opened up.

>> No.36366639
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36366639

>>36360822
Selfishness. A paladin's holy mission is too important for them to waste time with such indulgence.

>> No.36366660

>>36365058
>like Paladins
>read this
>I will never be a Paladin, because everything contradicts with my personality

I always wanted to be a Paladin. Too bad I end up being a Neutral coward.

>> No.36366768

>>36366660
Being a paladin isn't playing who you are.

It's playing who you could be.

/pretentiousness

>> No.36366816
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36366816

>>36366639
In some ways, sex is honestly the thing that makes me love playing paladins.

That slowly growing realization as the years tick by that, even if you can spend a night in the arms of the pretty tavern girl, you can never marry, you can never retire and settle down and become a blacksmith or a farmer, have a son or daughter and regal him with stories of your heroics. You have to keep on moving and moving, because you can never just stop being a paladin. It is your calling and you can't just give it up for selfish, mortal reasons. Everyone else can retire from the adventuring life but you - the wizard can go back to his books, the bard can settle down with the elven lass he bedded last year, the fighter can hang up his sword and open a tavern, but you can't set aside your faith and calling and duty. You have to keep going.

Just realizing that you are getting older and older, all your friends are dying or leaving the party, and someday you'll be on your own, old and grey, no family, no son or squire, and still you have to keep on travelling on and fighting the good fight, no matter how you feel about it anymore, about how your youthful enthusiasm has faded and all your doing it for is out of an increasingly jaded sense of duty. If you don't die somewhere before then.

>> No.36366900

>>36365980
In general, they don't make them "Themselves". The majority of Paladins serve a God, whose doctrine informs them of The Law.

To them, they're maybe in International Waters, but they're Interpol. There ARE Laws, and they will be enforced.

Paladins can even enforce differing Doctrines, leading to Paladin on Paladin combat, though that is mostly due to confusion, or low patience between the two.

As to their ability to do Evil, I would say that Paladins can do limited amounts of JUSTIFIED Evil.

A Paladin CAN kill an innocent to serve the greater Good. He can also choose not to. The point lies not in the action, but in the intent. As long as he MEANS to do the best he can, and his God supports him, he's fine.

If I may spoil a bit of Dresden Files:
IN Skin Game, one of the Holy Swords of the Cross is wielded against an Evil Man. He is unapologetically, monstrously Evil. However, he had voluntarily surrendered. He was Unarmed. And his Attacker swings the sword down, proclaiming "Damn You."
The Sword breaks.
It's worth noting, however, that the Evil guy even says, two minutes later, that he wasn't sure it wouldn't kill him, until his attacker said "Damn you." Because their intent wasn't pure. If they had made the exact same action, but with a different intent, maybe it would have worked.


>>36366660
This is only ONE way to be a Paladin. There are plenty of others. From the (in)famous "Powder Keg of Justice", to say, Sam Vimes' unflinching dedication to helping people and "The Rules". Michael Carpenter is another great example.

There is nothing wrong with a Paladin who spends the majority of his time just helping people. Building houses, curing the sick, helping the elderly or wounded. Who only takes up his weapon when Evil comes and flight is impossible. The Last Line. The Quiet Shield.

I've wanted for YEARS to play a LG Cleric or Paladin of St Cuthbert, who was essentially nothing more than a Wise Old Man, with a magic Whoopin' Stick.

>> No.36366914

>>36366816
I don't see what's wrong with a family man paladin. They are based off idealized portrayals of the martial social class, and the state of the martial social class is one of the best indicators of the quality of life in a civilization. It adds a lot of color for a paladin to be fighting for a liege and community instead of some boring abstract notion of generalized goodness.

>> No.36366980

People don't enjoy the idea of a person that is objectively better than them.

>> No.36367021

>>36366900
Most lawful good deities still have an incomprehensibly broad range of interpretations, nothing comparable to a cop. You still have a guy who essentially makes up whatever rules he likes and enforces them however he likes, when he likes to do so. Partly this is because huge lists of rules are not exciting to most.

On the topic of 40kized paladins (see next line), my greatest disappointment in FFG was that Book of Judgment and Blood of Martyrs had nearly no guidelines as to what the laws of the imperial state or faith were (aside from the very general HERESY BAD ones), so it feels strange playing a strict authoritarian with very few rules to enforce.

>A Paladin CAN kill an innocent

>though that is mostly due to confusion, or low patience between the two.

Well, in 3.x, a paladin's code requires that he punishes those who harm or threatens innocents, and few are more deserving of excessive levels of punishment than a paladin who harms or threatens innocents -- though such conflict need not be so exciting.

Many paladins have a liege. All that it takes for two paladins to kill each other is for their lieges to want, or be obligated, to kill each other.

>> No.36367030

>>36366914
And I apologize for saying generalized goodness to be boring, but I mean, its a bit of a big concept, probably too big to be handled under one character. "Mercy" or "justice" or "protection" is probably easier.

>> No.36367070

>>36367030
I don't see why generalized goodness doesn't work. Be good. Do good things. You don't have to get into a moral bind about it as long as you can feel sure most of the time what counts as good and what counts as bad.

>> No.36367265

>>36367070
Well, it really does matter what kind of goodness you're referring to and how you're implementing it. Nearly every political dispute in first world countries do boil down to not so much dissimilar ultimate values but how to implement them.

>> No.36367298

>>36366816
For Pathfinder, you can make a Paladin devoted to the Golarion love goddess, and bone as much as you want, so long as everyone involved is open and honest about their thoughts and feelings on the matter.

I mean, come on, they're immune to any and all disease by level 3. That has to mean something.

>> No.36367326

>>36367021
>Many Paladins have a liege.

In my 16 years of Tabletop Gaming, I have never seen one Paladin with a liege. I have never, until this moment, even heard the idea that they would need or want one.

And sure, I'm sure Lawful Good Deities are open to a wide array of interpretations, not at all like police, who frequently are unaware of the actual laws they're supposed to enforce due to the labyrinthine nature of the modern legal systems. There's a Supreme Court case RIGHT NOW, going on because a Cop pulled a car over for having a broken tail-light, in a state where that's not illegal. (The case is because he totally caught a guy smuggling cocaine, but since he had no legal reason to pull the car over, he can't, by extension, have a reason to search the car. Which means a cocaine smuggler may get away with it because the cop didn't know what he was doing.)

They don't "make up what rules they like", they're watched BY THEIR GOD. If he doesn't like it, Boom, no Paladin. Hell, for a mere 1,000 gold, you can BUY an item that lets you send a flag up asking if this is a good idea, and your god ANSWERS. Paladins can buy WORKING Magic 8 Balls.

Just in the 3e Player's Handbook, there are no less than 7 potential gods for paladins. out of 18. Would some of them be okay killing an innocent? Yes. St Cuthbert would, definitely, if no one else. Pelor probably wouldn't, unless the kid volunteered, in order to save the town, because then the kid is being Self-Sacrificing. You may note that, while the Paladin's code of Conduct states that a Paladin falls if she willingly commits an Evil Act, it doesn't state that the same is true of the other components of the code. Because, otherwise, a Paladin could fall for say, failing to punish a man who broke a child's arm saving her from a burning building. Because, surprise! The Code of Conduct as written is stupid.

>> No.36367346

>>36367298
But you don't get to just stop being a paladin. You can bang as many girls as you want, but you can't just get married and retire.

>> No.36367367

>>36367346
why not

>> No.36367410

>>36367021

I've been looking since you posted this, and I can't find it, but I know somewhere I've seen a list of the kind of Laws that exist in the Imperium, and how they're terrible. Stuff like Murder was 10 lashes or something, while "Delaying an Inquisitor" was Summary Execution.

I've still been glancing around.

Part of the problem is that, if you're an Adeptus Arbites, those are the quality of calls you get summoned on. You wouldn't get called for someone murdering 10 people, as long as he did it with just a normal gun. No, you're the dude called in when someone's got a Banshee's blade, or has started riots on 3 planets. You're interstellar FBI, so it's less about the actual crimes then their scale.

>> No.36367414

>>36366816
A paladin could totally settle down and become the guardian of a city/monastery/holy relic/something and potentially raise a family or whatever without abandoning their holy knight-ness. Being an eternal wanderer isn't necessary to their archetype, I don't think.

>> No.36367428

>>36367346
Sure you can. I'm not even sure you'd fall. Not having power is the last thing an agent of good should be afraid of, regardless.

>> No.36367459
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36367459

>>36366900
>A Paladin CAN kill an innocent to serve the greater Good. He can also choose not to. The point lies not in the action, but in the intent. As long as he MEANS to do the best he can, and his God supports him, he's fine.

This sounds like an 'ends justify the means' argument.

A Paladin has a responsibility to be on guard against moral corruption. Ignorance may serve as an excuse for a Fighter, but it is insufficient for a Paladin. For this reason, Paladins many years being schooled in identifying and resisting moral peril.
Of course, that is not an iron-clad rule. If a Paladin has been deliberately deceived or manipulated, they may have some latitude.

The road to Hell begins with a small concession, and many Paladins fall by degrees. Temptation nibbles away at their moral foundation until they collapse.

>> No.36367460
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36367460

>>36367367
Basing it mostly on 3rd edition rules. A lot of the background for paladins was that being a paladin was part of a calling, a near undeniable destiny that they would be chosen to follow.

Other big part is the wording of their multiclass restriction:

"Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass
character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin
who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again
raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.
The path of the paladin requires a constant heart. If a character
adopts this class, she must pursue it to the exclusion of all other
careers. Once she has turned off the path, she may never return."

Basically, it's pretty rare for paladins to ever give up on being paladins or dabble in something else. They're supposed to be paladins forever - pursuing it to the exclusion of all other careers." And if you constantly have to wander around paladining it up, you can't really settle down.

As you can see, my logic is of course irrefutable and you must bow before it as correct and cannot disagree with me in any way.

>> No.36367518

>>36362813

Most people seem to forget that the tales of knights in shining armour were based on actual historic fact, and are unable to comprehend that people in the middle ages, particularly nobles, were anything but corrupt, selfish, hypocrites that used faith as a means to trounce on the poor and uneducated.

An analogue would be the modern day police: They're often characterized as being only a notch above the criminals they arrest, but their principals are lawful and good in theory, and there are enough good depictions of policemen that there must be at least a handful that live up to the ideal, even if they don't admit it.

>> No.36367528

>>36367460
So the character retiring would be retiring the character.
I don't see the problem.

>> No.36367564
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36367564

>>36367460
I'd say that says something closer to "once you choose to stop being a Paladin, you cannot return to the fold later. Being a Paladin is not something you can drop in and out of willy-nilly, but a solemn and serious calling."

It doesn't say you can never stop, just that becoming a Paladin and retiring from being a Paladin is a major life choice.

Well, that's me breaking myself against the +3 Axiomatic Walls of your Citadel of Reason.

>> No.36367603
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36367603

>>36367564
I realized as I was looking at that quote that, well shit, I totally misinterpreted that idea and I'm a dumbass. But I went on anyway.

>> No.36367638

>>36357923
>>It's not the Paladins, it's the people who play them.

This. Nothing wrong with the "I'm alwys right" do gooder moralist. Sure, it gets annoying sometimes, but it does provide some decent interaction.

The problem is that the people that are attracted to play paladins are usually the most ignobile people possible. They are the ones that if you disagree with them and do not follow their lead will get pissy. And so they play a character that can boss everyone around and techinically is always right, because he is always good.

>> No.36367826

>>36367410
I think you mean an unnamed sidebar in the Book of Judgement, it is on page 33. Although it doesn't have the offences you mentioned. Maybe those are something from the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer?

>> No.36367853

>>36367326

> I have never, until this moment, even heard the idea that they would need or want one.

Never read 2e Complete Paladin's Handbook? Granted it had a pretty confused perspective on a paladin (it seemed to be written by someone thinking paladin = cavalier paladin of 1e).

>They don't "make up what rules they like", they're watched BY THEIR GOD. If he doesn't like it, Boom, no Paladin.

There's a fairly gigantic amount of wiggle room between "intentional evil act" and "everything else." 99% of what a paladin does will be his own mandate, not his god's. There really are not many

>The Code of Conduct as written is stupid

Well, if you interpret it in the dumbest way possible. "Killing innocents is against the rules" is not something good characters need to struggle with.

>> No.36367854
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36367854

I'm playing a Paladin with a party member who is a good guy, but maybe a bit of a rules lawyer. Between him and the DM, I often feel like the character is out of my hands, and I don't get to make choices because there is only one correct thing for me to do in a given situation. Whenever I do something, I have to spend a minute justifying myself.

/tg/, how do I assert my agency against players and DMs more puritanical than my Paladin? I don't want to watch my character on autopilot while everyone else has fun.

>>36367603
Maybe it's all the Auras of Good in here talking, but I forgive you.

>> No.36367875

>>36367410

I know its about the scale, but there aren't a whole lot of clear examples of what exactly is a crime on arbiter scale levels. Mostly, its self explanatory (CHAOS HERETICS AIM TO EAT ALL THE ORPHANS) of course.

>> No.36367910

>>36367460
Paladins don't have to be wandering ronin or otherwise completely actified. Guarding an important royal personage or even a single village is just as valuable, and honestly there isn't much of a mechanical difference in a campaign where the adventure comes to you vs you coming to the adventure.

>> No.36367921

>>36367854
Remind him that you're not christian and that your gods have different morals.

Figure out who your God is and what it is that he represents. Pelor? Pelor is racist as fuck and responds to most all threats by burning them. Corellon? If it ain't an elf it ain't worth it. Moradin? Like previous for dwarves, with the aside of "Unless you drown it in alcohol first. Or drown in alcohol."

Every religious order allows to drink, sex, fight, and make rough decisions out in the world - You made an oath to fight evil, not an oath of chastity, not an oath of charity, you oppose fucking evil and what you do when you're not doing that is your goddamned business, as long as you're not being a chucklefuck.

If all else fails, go look up the Grey Guard in the Complete Scoundrel. They get to smite anything and their code of ethics is the first thing to get relaxed like an Elf discovering weed for the first time.

>> No.36368029

>>36367853
I hadn't, actually. As I noted, I've been playing for 16 years so I started just before 3e came out. My first tabletop was WoD.

I feel like at this juncture, we're both sliding into intellectual dishonesty, whether intentional or not.

Gods have dictates. Those paladins who follow them have to adhere to those dictates. Their choices are informed by and judged in relation to, those dictates. 95% of what he does may not be explicitly spelled out, but roughly 0% of what he does will not be CONNECTED to those dictates.

And Yes, the Code of Conduct is stupid. Its wording is what has allowed over a decade of edgy DMs to trap Paladins in no-win scenarios because of the very arguments you pose: If Killing Innocents is always evil, then I can EASILY set up situations where regardless of your choice, you kill an innocent. At which point your best argument would be "Then I do nothing", trapping you like Burridan's Ass, where, unable to make either choice, you make neither, and end up in a much worse scenario.

To relate it more to modern ethical discussions, if you're unaware of the "trolley problem": You are driving a trolley that will, if you do not act, hit and kill 5 men. OR, you can pull a lever, and turn onto a side line, that only kills 1. Your stance is "Shouldn't have been on a trolley."

Mine actually goes further, (as the next phase of the problem does), wherein you SEE a trolley, unable to stop, is about to hit 5 men. However, you also note that there is a fat man nearby. By pushing him in the way, you are CERTAIN you will save the five men. I say it is within a paladin's ability to push the fat man. I don't think he should like it, or be pleased that he did. I simply think that he is allowed to actively harm others in the pursuit of the greatest good.

Now, if he was certain it would work, the BEST move is throw HIMSELF in the way. But, failing that, I say he can push the fat man.

Let us agree to disagree on paladin morality.

>> No.36368081

>>36367921
>Remind him that you're not christian and that your gods have different morals.

It was more about their own understanding of the alignment mechanic than it was a question of personal ethics.

>Figure out who your God is and what it is that he represents. Pelor? Pelor is racist as fuck and responds to most all threats by burning them. Corellon? If it ain't an elf it ain't worth it. Moradin? Like previous for dwarves, with the aside of "Unless you drown it in alcohol first. Or drown in alcohol."

It's Pathfinder, my god is Iomedae, the Pathfinder analogue of Pelor. I don't know how different she is to Pelor, but he sounds pretty rock and roll.

>> No.36368103
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36368103

>>36368081
>>36367921

My problem last session was related to the ethnocentrism discussion above. We were in a NE town where slavery is legal. In the street, we came across a slave who was being chased by his master. It was clear that the master was going to murder the escaped slave. My Neutral Apathetic / Evil party was happy to hand the slave over.

It seemed clear to me that the Paladin response (and more to the point, the Lawful Good response) was to protect the slave, confronting (but not attacking) the master.

The DM and party member said that I was infringing on the accepted law of the land. I was denying the master access to his property, which is a violation. The player also said that we had bigger things to worry about on this mission.

I responded that I reject the notion of people as property, and stressed that we were talking about allowing a human being to be murdered, which is clearly wrong. The life or death of this slave is certainly a big thing to worry about. Maybe not to the player's character, but certainly to the slave, and a person who swore an oath to help the meek.

To his credit, when the argument stalled and we were going around in circles, the DM stepped in with a resolution (an NPC companion offered to buy and free the slave).

Try as I might, I can't understand someone arguing that the Lawful Good thing to do is hand over a person whose only crime was to be a slave seeking freedom to be murdered. He was a criminal, but only on the basis of an unjust law. I think he was coming at it more from the angle of Law, whereas I was more concerned with justice and Good.

>> No.36368135

>>36367921
Gray Guards are just awesome. I love the quote they get that's, like, a rogue's last words or something. "How can we see the pally comin' if he's wearin' armor that's blacker 'n ours?"

They even tell you that being a Gray Guard and having a relaxed code of conduct doesn't let you be a regular old murderhobo. What it means is that you devote yourself so thoroughly to the cause of the greater good that you are willing to make the hard decisions that would tear the heart and spirit of any other Paladin to shreds, bite the bullet and take the burden upon yourself so that those who are less able to cope don't have to go through that emotional Hell. You take the hit, so that nobody else has to.

>>36368029
I'm imagining a Paladin wearing so much heavily enchanted armor that when the trolley hits them, it crumples and bounces off the rails while the Paladin just sits there, completely unfazed either by the impact or the incredulous stares.

Alternately, he could just sunder the rails before anyone gets hit.

>> No.36368145

>>36368103

Can't you just ignore the DM and do it anyways? It's not like any player ever has followed man's law to the letter, I don't see why an authority of a god should be required to break their god's law to do so.

If anyone bitches just say "I have a higher duty, fuck off."

>> No.36368152

>>36368081
I thought the PF analogue was Sarenrae? Fiery angel chick who uses a scimitar that burns with the fires of a thousand suns?

>> No.36368192

>>36368145
>Can't you just ignore the DM and do it anyways?
Players are one thing, but I really have to step on eggshells with the DM, considering his ability to fuck me. If he raises an alignment issue I feel like I have to convince him or else eat shit for a level or two.

>>36368152
Yeah, you're right, I thought Pelor was Lawful Good. Shows what I know about DnD.

>> No.36368204

If Paladins exist, with actual holy powers granted to them by a deity - then that makes them literally right. Their existence proofs their point and other characters often can't cope with that fact.

>> No.36368221

>>36368204
>Their existence proofs their point and other players often can't cope with that fact.
Fixed. Though often the Paladin player will use it as a license to boss the party around, which makes the other players resent them.

>> No.36368277

>>36368029
>I feel like at this juncture, we're both sliding into intellectual dishonesty, whether intentional or not.

Nah, 2e CPH was VERY big on paladins being turbo-knightly types, and 3e (like 2e core) was VERY light on them being so. If that's what you mean by intellectual dishonesty.

If you mean the innocents thing, that seems to be the most controversial element of 3e paladins, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why its controversial that, in all the classes in the game, there's one that's supposed to punish those who harm or threaten innocents, and, presumably, are not supposed to do so themselves.

I can't quite figure out what sort of perversity requires people to seek out the -one- class that has to be good, and want to figure out convoluted mental exercises to make them kill innocents, either to make them fall or to permit 40k logic to be considered good.


>If Killing Innocents is always evil, then I can EASILY set up situations where regardless of your choice, you kill an innocent.

Nah, the Snidely Whiplash who tied the innocents to the train track killed them. Also, those situations require the DM to railroad (pun unintended) events and to make the paladin magically incapable of sundering attacks (for example).

Its strange that people consider the paladin's code of conduct to be unrealistic: its so unrealistic one only requires totally unrealistic situations that will never happen IRL to foil a paladin.

Also strange that BBEGs devote so much effort to harassing a tier 5 footsoldier instead of worrying about the wizards.

>> No.36368290

>>36365302
>he be an ethnocentric bastard and project his values on another culture?

You make that sound like a bad thing when the other culture has shitty, inferior morals that lead to situations like this. Even in real life it would be more moral to kill every last person taking part than allow her to be killed, let alone in a fantasy setting where you are the avatar of goodness.

Using 'ethnocentrism' as an insult and an excuse to allow evil behaviour is cowardice of the worst kind.

>> No.36368292

>>36368103
Fortunately, even if one argues that violating the local laws is a chaotic act, paladins can commit chaotic acts without the slightest penalty. It isn't even on their code of conduct list.

This is, however, why I endorse paladins who serve king or country, makes it WAY easier to arbitrate what they'd do.

>> No.36368302

>>36368192
Of course, NG gods are fine for paladin deities. Perhaps even ideal.

>> No.36368306

>>36368204
Not really? Just because they guy serves a powerful being does not make him right or moral. Or are you implying that servants of evil gods are also objectively right?

>> No.36368314

>>36368306
>Or are you implying that servants of evil gods are also objectively right?

This would be an interesting premise for a story.

>> No.36368364

>>36356641
>dat mod

>> No.36368377
File: 17 KB, 430x287, Edgy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36368377

>>36356581

>> No.36368407

>>36368302
This. Love gods, sun gods, some nature gods. I even went and made a Neutral Good spider goddess once. They all were better than a Lawful Good deity for the Paladins specifically because law wasn't exactly a thing for them. Yeah, the Paladin is Lawful Good, but it also enforces the idea that the Paladin, if presented with a "be good or be lawful" dilemma, can and should choose to be good, and can do it with the clearest of consciences.

>> No.36368410

>>36368103
People often have a problem tiptoeing the line between lawful and good when they play paladins.

When any DM I play with tries to pull that shit on me, I slap that angsty shit right out of his hands and tell him exactly what I've told everyone else before him.

You're not Lawful. You're not Good. You're Lawful Good. That means you do not bend to any law or any good cause just because it's the law or it's a good cause. You worship the Lawful Good path.

Faced with a similar situation, with slaves being sold in a town of ill-repute, my paladin immediately put a stop to it. When the DM mentioned how it was the law of the town and that I should respect it, I rebutted with "I'm not the fucking police here, I'm seven feet and a hundred and fifty pounds of righteous justice contained in half-inch thick full plate mail wielding a hammer with a haft as long as a man is tall and a head as large as a child's torso. They will learn to be good and lawful even if I have to burn this filthy sickness out of every nook and cranny."

Most paladins are crazy fuckers with gods whispering ancient hatreds and demands into their ears. You have the power to heal and rebuild, yeah. But the reason you're on the planet is to wipe it clean of degenerates, scum and villainy and leave only love, peace and justice behind. You don't get to enjoy the love, peace and justice. You get to have anger poured into your soul and directed at everything wrong with the world. The police will fear you, the populace will hate you and you'll resent yourself. But that's why you choose to take up the path. You're a murderous psychopath who uses pain to cleanse the mind, blood to clean the body and fire to purge the soul.

But then again, every anon is allowed their own opinion and their own playstyle. That's what makes for interesting and different ways to play a paladin.

>> No.36368433

>>36368410
http://i.imgur.com/9Zv4V.gif

>> No.36368470

>>36360643
>Eh

Unless you're Canadian you don't have permission to use that word, kindly get the fuck off 4chan now, faggot.

>> No.36368518
File: 249 KB, 1903x950, lawful good.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36368518

>>36368292
>paladins can commit chaotic acts without the slightest penalty.
It might not violate their code of conduct, but it would violate alignment. In any case, I don't think the guy was thinking about the Paladin's code. I have a feeling he might police my character with the classic "You're Lawful Good, you wouldn't do that".

I think I'll just have to call him on out-of-character alignment-lawyering when it pops up. In-character objections are fine, but he has to get off my back about alignment.

>>36368410
On Lawful and Good vs. Lawful Good, pic related is one of the main pillars of this character. Specifically,
>If an evil judge uses the Law for evil purposes, a Lawful Good person is not obligated to respect that judge's decisions... He only follows the law when the law is good and just.
In other words, terrestrial law is largely irrelevant from a Paladin's perspective, and is always trumped by divine law. He only has to be Lawful to the oaths he has made, and the demands of his faith. I think it just comes off as intuitively Chaotic when a Paladin is effectively an outlaw.

Being an avenging angel like you said sounds great in theory, but it would have mortally endangered the party, and made the foreseeable future far more difficult. Though it may fit the character, as a player I feel it would have been selfish.

>> No.36368578

>>36368518
>t might not violate their code of conduct, but it would violate alignment. In any case, I don't think the guy was thinking about the Paladin's code. I have a feeling he might police my character with the classic "You're Lawful Good, you wouldn't do that".

Important note about that, though. Alignment is not a straightjacket.

The Paladin Code re: "committing an Evil Act" IS a straightjacket. You do it once, and X penalties apply.

But with alignment, it's the *sum* of your behavioral tendencies. A person who steals a single loaf of bread in a year, but who breaks no other laws, does not a Chaotic alignment simply because they took one Chaotic act. It is entirely possible for a Lawful Good person to commit the (very) occasional Chaotic or Evil act and still be "Lawful Good".

It's just that in the very specific case of the Paladin, they have the *extra* restriction that committing that single Evil act *does* knock them off Paladin status. But there's no such rule regarding Chaotic acts, and as long as your general tendency is toward being Lawful person (however your DM defines Law, anyway - personal code, legal system, liege's will, God's will, etc), then you remain Lawful Good regardless of the occasional minor Chaotic act.

>> No.36368595

>>36368410
"You have the power to heal and rebuild, yeah. But the reason you're on the planet is to wipe it clean of degenerates, scum and villainy and leave only love, peace and justice behind."

And to think I only just got here *from* /pol/.

>> No.36368622

>>36356584
>>36356550
>>36356531
This is the problem with paladins.
Guys like this.
They are the moral compass in all things and in any disagreement it's a clear black-and-white issue of the wise good guy against the edgy bad guy.
We don't want that bullshit, conflicts shouldn't have easy answers like that.

>> No.36368642

>>36368578 cont

It's also worth noting that the degree of Evil or Chaotic also ought to apply. To use an Evil example:

>Bob the Impaler hasn't eaten in five days. He steals the only coin from the blind beggar's cup to buy some food.

Evil act. Stealing from somebody who clearly is in need themselves to benefit yourself. But not something that's going to cause Bob to become an Evil character by itself.

>Bob the Impaler looks around at the burning orphanage as the body of the last living orphan slides off his crotch. He smiles a bit and walks out the door, kicking the orphanage puppy into a wall and breaking its back.

Evil act. Burning down an orphanage, raping the kids, whilst kicking a puppy. Again, a single Evil act...but it'd have to be a tremendous Edgelord DM who wouldn't drop Bob straight to an Evil alignment for this single act.

There are degrees of evil and chaotic acts, y'know?

>> No.36368659

>>36359235
>utilitarian paladin - same thing
No, almost every westener is a utilitarian

>> No.36368665
File: 91 KB, 1856x526, Zeal.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36368665

>>36368410
capped

>> No.36368683

>>36364119
That is why rape does not exist in my campaigns.
>inb4 hurr durr realism
Fuck off, it keeps a lot of Magical Realm bullshit out, as well as saving some of my female players from awkwardness, when you know the guy(s) have an erection when talking rape.

>> No.36368684

>>36368277
>Nah, the Snidely Whiplash killed them
>require to railroad
>40k logic

That's the intellectual dishonesty thing. The trolley problem is a metaphorical representation. Again, there are a wide array of scenarios where breaking the Paladin's Code could be the option that leads to the greatest good. For instance, poisoning a tyrant in his sleep, allowing a peaceful transition of power to a more moderate heir.
And it's not 40k logic. 40k doesn't run on logic, it runs on blind fanaticism. Moral idealism, utilitarianism, ALL lead to different patterns of behavior than the Core paladin. Because he does not, in fact, serve good, by the tenets of his faith. He serves the tenets of his faith, and calls them good. In this instance, he is right. His actions are all good. But he is not bound to do good, he is bound to obey.

Further, there's not one class required to be good. Clerics of Good Gods must remain within one step, excepting clerics of Neutral Good Gods, who cannot be True Neutral. So literally any cleric of a NG god has to be Good. Barbarians can't be Lawful, Monks can't be non-Lawful. There are plenty of classes with alignment restrictions. Paladin is the only one that they put a series of additional, stupid rules on TOP of that restriction. And the Code of Conduct has no sense of context. If you break the arm of a child rescuing it from a fire, you have harmed an innocent. Period. If you stab an opponent about to attack a child without announcing yourself, you have behaved dishonorably.

I don't find the idea of a code of conduct unrealistic, I find the one in the player's handbook to be unrealistic. If you want to base a paladin off a modernized code of chivalry, fine. If you want one based off the Boy Scout's Law, fine. Ten Commandments, cool.

All I ask is that your Code of Conduct, whatever it may be, serve good. And the easiest way to do that is to make your code of conduct descriptive rather than prescriptive. (Be or do X, instead of don't do Y)

>> No.36368697
File: 54 KB, 338x268, 1387358536982.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36368697

>>36368578
That's very useful to know. I'll just tell the guy to butt out of alignment if it comes up again, since that's between the DM and I, and it's not his place as a player. But he could call me out in character for breaking the Paladin's code, if he knows it.

>>36368642
Another good point. Pic horrifyingly related.

>> No.36368704
File: 391 KB, 320x340, 1383186860075.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36368704

>>36361226

>history major
>everyone flocks to medieval studies
>every class is filled with white, upper middle class libertines with hair in every aspect of the rainbow
>meanwhile I'm focusing on Asian history and don't have to deal with fat, hairy women shoving their toxic ideologies down my throat

Get fucked nerds.

>> No.36368736 [SPOILER] 
File: 295 KB, 256x256, 1416831931463.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36368736

>>36368704
You mean you don't have to deal with insufferable weebs? As someone about to start exactly this kind of course, I am relieved.

Unless you are the weebs, anon.

>> No.36368739

>>36368518
>but it would violate alignment.

Alignment violations aren't really a thing post AD&D, but yeah.

>> No.36368769
File: 57 KB, 449x444, 1385399778635.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36368769

>>36368736

What do you think this is, a Japanese language course? Weebs ain't got time to learn about no Zhou dynasty nigga. If you really want weeb friends, just leave your dorm room open while playing literally any fighting game you've got. You'll make friends with every black guy on campus and half the black guys within a 10-mile radius of campus.

>Heisei 26
>not being a weeb

>> No.36368773

>>36367414
And even if he doesn't, nothing stops him from finding love on the road.

Fellow adventurers are prime candidates here, as can many merchants or travelers. If the fighter, or mage, or fellow cleric of your (or an allied) god is willing to continue her travels as well, nothing will stop you, really.

Even children can be well taken care of; at worst they're no less educated than any other kids of traveling groups or merchants. More likely though, due to their origins, 'safety' is an extradimensional house that's fully stocked and cared for that effectively 'follows' the family around. Teachers and mentors may be amongst the most powerful, intelligent and influential people in the land, and rare is the town militia able to hold a candle to your parents even at 50:1. Top fucking class upbringing.

In several of our group's campaigns, offspring were the prime candidates for sidekicks, proteges and eventual PC replacements. Even if cursed to eternally wander, you can always settle down and make yourself a home in your own way.

>> No.36368781

>>36368684

>That's the intellectual dishonesty thing.

No, not at all. You -need- to rely on convoluted, bizarre scenarios to force the "no killing innocents" thing to seem unreasonable.

>Again, there are a wide array of scenarios

Ah, but the one people take issue with is the (implied) no killing innocents one -- the one that is actually reasonable.

>40k... blind fanaticism

They frequently present logical (ish) reasons why you have to kill tons of innocents to avoid killing tons of innocents.

>If you break the arm of a child rescuing it from a fire

Obviously, if you apply high granular physics to D&D, weird shit automatically happens and it requires reinterpretation in that context. I would more point to the magic system why high granular physics starts to make the game be weird (allegedly possible antimatter conjurations and so forth).

And yeah, descriptive is generally better than prescriptive, but you do require outlandish, hackneyed scenarios for killing innocents to be a major disadvantage, unless the paladin is a bomber pilot or something.

P.S. the Snidely Whiplash thing is perfectly accurate as your example is reliant on people tied to train tracks.

>> No.36368791

>>36368578
>But there's no such rule regarding Chaotic acts, and as long as your general tendency is toward being Lawful person (however your DM defines Law, anyway - personal code, legal system, liege's will, God's will, etc), then you remain Lawful Good regardless of the occasional minor Chaotic act.

Just thought i'd like to add

>Law and good deeds are the meat and drink of paladins. If they ever knowingly perform an act which is chaotic in nature, they must seeka high level (7th or above) cleric of lawful good alignment, confess their sin, and do penance as prescribed by the cleric. If a paladin should ever knowingly and willingly perform on evil act, he or she loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably All benefits are then lost, and no deed or magic can restore the character to palodinhood; he or she is everafter a fighter.

That you actually do fall for commiting a single chaotic act in 1e. Its just all the different editions of paladin are different between old dnd, wotc and pathfinder which causes all the confusion because everyone internalises their favourite version

>> No.36368792

>>36368684
>If you break the arm of a child rescuing it from a fire, you have harmed an innocent. Period.

What is the problem with this? The Paladin's code says that she should, "...punish those who harm or threaten innocents. " (SRD).

So you saved a girl's life but accidentally broke her arm in the process. The sane Paladin would genuinely apologize to the girl and her parents, and offer some sort of reparations for the medical expenses (if for some reason you couldn't Lay On Hands) and the recuperation, plus some for her pain. If the parents accept the offer, then justice is served. If they refuse the offer, then justice is served (and if the paladin feels extra-bad about it, there can be a mysterious pouch with 50gp left on their porch overnight - see also: "using the party rogue to do good"). And the Paladin should reflect on what - if anything - she might do better next time to avoid the harm to the child, with the understanding that there may not be anything else she could have done.

It does NOT mean that you're forced to amputate your own friggin arm or something.

>>36368578
>>36368642
>>36368697

Something that was brought up in a 2e-era product was the theory that characters shouldn't have an alignment to start out with (yes, it would require modification to deal with starting PCs with alignment restrictions...just go with it). Instead pick an arbitrary period of time - one module, hitting Level 2, 6 sessions, and so forth - and at the end of that time, the rest of the table tells you what they think your character's alignment should be based on how you've acted to that point. Then the normal alignment rules (and the rules about changing alignment) come into play.

Basically, your alignment should be decided by your actions. The WORST way to do it is to have your available actions be determined by your alignment.

>> No.36368804

>>36368684
>break the arm
You apologize to the child that you could not save it as well or completely as you had hoped, wish you had suffered such harm in its place instead, use Lay on Hands to fix that shit up and try to remember they break a bit more easily next time.

You've still saved the kid from horrible fiery death.

>> No.36368807

>>36368739
Yeah, tell that to this guy I had a problem with.

I was going more for the pious but sarcastic knight that always tries to do Good rather than the faultless, immaculate walking beacon of dogmatic correctness he seems to expect. Dammit Jim, I'm a soldier not a lawyer!

>> No.36368830
File: 29 KB, 404x300, hitler worth it.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36368830

>>36368791
1e's got a drastically different conception of alignments. Notably, lots of sodeep villains count perfectly as Lawful Good -- you just need to be striving for your conception of civilization and the greater good, and countenancing unjust laws is absolutely not required of the paladin.

Somewhere down the line, alignments lost their Moorcockian implications and became more personality types.

>> No.36368849

>>36356509
I don't hate them, but I really am sad how they aren't LAW MC LAW.

Judge dredd is just a fancy fighter, it seems.

>> No.36368867
File: 86 KB, 610x139, 1e chaotic good.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36368867

>>36368807
Law and chaos are like the most painful part of a painful system.

>> No.36368872

>>36368791

That's fair - especially the part about there being a ton of different codes and everyone internalizing their favorite - but 1e D&D especially had really specific and frankly odd notations regarding alignment. Moorcock - inspired, IIRC.

1e alignment notes really don't match up to anything else in the history of D&D since that time, and while I appreciate the nitpick, I'm reasonably sure that this thread is centered around the issues regarding 3e Paladins (and PF ones, to a lesser degree).

It's like you're pointing to Crystal Pepsi and saying "colas are clear". Well, yeah, you found the one weird example...but literally every other example isn't like that. And from 2e to PF, none of the others have Paladins fall for Chaotic action that *doesn't* change their alignment.

>> No.36368880

>>36361226
>studied archeology for a blue monday
>none of this shit because it's all about what you find in the ground
>no personal opinions allowed
>switch to psychology
>lecturer at one point tells us how we can now do research into the link between race and crime
>"progressive" people have made a pariah out of anyone trying the same 10-20 years ago

Data is king. No room for personal bullshit. Some still try, obviously. But we had none of that shit with weakminded PC assholes functionally running the department.

Not to say that it doesn't happen here. We had a big scandal with some lefty professors making up politically motivated bullshit. But that's just it. It's a scandal. I just hate how every mouthbreathing retard takes it as evidence that ALL of higher education is fucked up because of it, and how the science of their choice automatically isn't "real science" when the core of the controversy is precisely them not following the rules that keep science scientific.

>> No.36368916

>>36368880
I hate to break it to you, but I'm going to continue calling psychology a fake science until you can build me a functioning brain out of organic jelly.

>> No.36368930

>>36368872
Yeah. I posted the 1e CG thing but forgot to mention the Moorcock angle -- CG and CE are barely different in some respects. Presumably, a CE person does, in fact, feel that restrictions to his freedom are as bad as murder. Likewise, a LG char can fully behave in a lawful evil fashion the entire campaign until someone figures out its for "the greater good." The more elastic alignments are necessary for 1e due to the severe problems alignment violation causes and the fact that alignments really do account for large populations -- entire groups of people could seriously be lawful good or chaotic evil. We still see that with monster alignment, but its no longer in vogue for human alignment.

>> No.36368934

>>36368916
That just means you're an idiot.

>> No.36368935

>>36368781
And now I'm certain you're trolling or being intellectually dishonest. No one was tied to the tracks. The Trolley problem is a philosophical problem that's been in wide use for over 30 years, there were more than 4 books written about it in the past 2.

You blew by my point that the code can act to impair goodness by claiming all people care about is the innocents one.

People use that one because, of all of them, it's the HARDEST choice. There are times, thankfully rare, when the right course of action is to kill one of the good guys. Maybe he's about to turn into a werewolf. Maybe they're cursed to drive people around them insane. Maybe it's literally a matter of shortening their suffering by a few hours. There will be times when the moral thing to do is kill someone who doesn't deserve it.

Further, the rule isn't kill, It's HARM, which has a vague enough definition to be meaningless. Kid's got a deadbeat dad? That demands attention. Dude crashes a cart, causing children to go hungry? Oh look, there's HARM.

>>36368792
>>36368804
Those are the correct responses to take. But neither of them is punishment. They're correction. At this juncture, I'm being mildly hyperbolic. I would never rule in these directions as a DM, but I also don't allow the core Code of Conduct.

Hell, one of the best campaigns I ever ran broke the code in half. (Paladin and A Cleric ran a "Villain Rehab", where they taught villains to be Good again. Which is illegal under "knowingly associate with")

>> No.36368936
File: 76 KB, 250x250, 1372585268737.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36368936

/tg/, how would you play a Paladin of Helm or Hoar?

Curious, you guys usually have pretty neat ideas on how to do things a little unconventionally, but keeping to the rules.

>> No.36368939

>>36368934
Oh, the slings and arrows of the dreaded psychologist. Whatever will I do.
I know!
Real science

>> No.36368940
File: 34 KB, 385x500, 1383345971804.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36368940

>>36368867
>Authority is wrong!
>Wrong
>Moral judgement based on moral authority
But >authority is wrong

What a spiral.

>I choose to live in a society with laws
That's wrong!
>I am choosing freely, isn't that your point?
Laws are wrong! You're not free! You have to have my kind of freedom! I demand it!

It hurts.

>> No.36368953

>>36368940
It's actually a very brief spiral, since they note that each person serves as their own moral authority.

So it's:
>Your laws are wrong!
>I freely chose to follow them
>I can no longer criticize you!

More ineffectual, certainly.

>> No.36368968

>>36368935
>The Trolley problem is a philosophical problem that's been in wide use for over 30 years, there were more than 4 books written about it in the past 2.

Unfortunately, philosophy isn't guaranteed to get anywhere over time. Like alignments.

>harm

Yeah, harm is certainly a matter for dispute, and indeed, I do like the subtle element of the paladin's code that its a bunch of subjective commandments with subjective interpretations nailed to the objective element of not doing evil (with "innocent," the determining factor in 3e phb good/evilness also being a matter of dispute).

Also "associate" is another one up for dispute, presumably I'd interpret that in much the sense that COs can't associate with the enlisted (for example, you can't willingly form a party with an evil type -- but if your king or god orders it...).

And yeah, people only really bring up the innocent one. I have seen one discussion suggesting paladins can't benefit from Improved Inviz type buffs, though, which is sort of interesting.

>> No.36369000

>>36368939
>real science

Son, you don't even know what those words mean.

>> No.36369041

I wish there were equivalent classes for punisher-type and dredd-type heroes.

Mostly because I want arguments on whether something is TRULY according to the spirit of the law, or whether the villain was TRULY punished.

>> No.36369061

>>36369041
A pious fighter obsessed with LAW would do the trick, surely. In fact, most classes could probably do that, if you fluffed them right.

>> No.36369073

>>36356509
Because there's no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

>> No.36369083

>>36369073
>The plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time

>> No.36369121
File: 104 KB, 431x308, Paladin Zathras.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36369121

>>36356825
>The Paladin had a few moral objections with this plan
Sorry, I had to.

>> No.36369178
File: 137 KB, 640x960, Knight of America.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36369178

>>36361226
Was this an American institution?

>> No.36369193

>>36369121
Jesus Christ, anon.
How many of those did you do?

>> No.36369200
File: 16 KB, 804x680, paladin-energy-ltd-logo.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36369200

>>36366816
reminds me how my party's paladin made an enemy draw elf give us fake id's and sneak us trough a heavily guarded city housing a gate to the underdark with a proper lawfull good dicking
good times
pic related

>> No.36369231

>>36369193
Are you asking me in particular or Anons in general?
Because I did only this one.

>> No.36369328

How do I play a paladin without making everyone else LG? For your party members it's like going out for a night on the town with the boys... and your mother. How can I be a good paladin without muscling in on everyone else's fun?

>> No.36369367

>>36369328
As far as I know, going out drinking with your friends and fucking a girl is neither unlawful nor immoral.

>> No.36369391

>>36369367
I mean that I want to avoid being the fun police. A paladin has a duty to root out evil, but how proactive does he need to be? Is it enough in a party situation to lead by example, or does he need to correct their behaviour directly?

>> No.36369433

>>36369391
Define "lead".
You needn't lead, you just pursue destruction of Evil. Just make sure that this is your highest motivation, to your party and yourself.

>> No.36369507

>>36369433
Lead them toward righteousness, not literally lead the party. Holding myself to a high moral standard, hoping they'll follow suit.

I just don't want to have to force my party to do what I want all the time because I'm a paladin.

>> No.36369819

>>36368683
I would be uncomfortable with the guy who was like that outside the game.

>> No.36369974

>>36368410
>seven feet and a hundred and fifty pounds of righteous...

jesus dude, eat a fucking sandwich or something. a 7ft tall character with a str of 16 would be no less then 230 pounds

>> No.36370091

>>36356878
I fucking love that picture and I don't know why

>> No.36370130

>>36368410
That's Chaotic Good, you idiot.

>> No.36371716

Paladins are representatives of compassion and love. Which is why laws and social norms don't hold for them.

A paladin is the one that takes more time to feed the homeless they pass by or help rebuild orphanages and raise the local standard of living, while at the same time engendering a sense of self-responsibility and communal cooperation and reliance in the town.

They are the ones that spend a fuck ton of time helping other people, but in the end stick to the primary objective of kicking true-evils ass. There are times when paladins make mistakes: they are mortal, mortals do that. They are only required to serve others and be compassionate to the best of their ability, which means it's a process of growth.

Most people are total potato when it comes to paladins with "Muh righteousness" and "Muh holy crusader" it is a very shallow representation of what a paladin is and totally avoids the real emotions and character of the archetype.

>> No.36371830
File: 121 KB, 250x418, _____?.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36371830

>>36356509
I know a girl who has a fetish for paladins falling.

One time she suggested that she would play a cocksucking MILF paladin and would try her hardest to make that character fall so that she turns into a cocksucking MILF succubus.

I'm not sure WHY or how that would be fun at all, since our DM's opinion on ERP is pretty much "no" and the rest of the table is full of prudes. I don't think she truly understands what a paladin is either.

The funny thing is, that girl is my older sister.

>> No.36371856
File: 889 KB, 500x286, 1410718325839.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
36371856

>>36371830
...

Does the rest of the group know, or just you?

>> No.36371918

>>36371856
Just me. She wouldn't tell anyone else out of embarrassment. Again, hardcore prudes.

And my god am I embarrassed.

>> No.36371937

>>36371918
Well you have three options anon.

1. Be mad.
2. Be Afraid.
3. Laugh at it.

I suggest option 3. Maybe you'll get a good story.

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