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/tg/ - Traditional Games


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[ERROR] No.35703426 [Reply] [Original] [4plebs] [archived.moe]

Which makes for a cooler setting- democracy or dictatorship?

>> No.35703432

Evil democracy vs good dictatorship.

>> No.35703487

>>35703432
This sounds fairly cool

>> No.35703502

>>35703432
Or to make it more blurred corrupt, inefficient democracy vs ruthless but fair dictatorship.

>> No.35703517

>>35703432

>> No.35703531

Nihilistic theocratic murderhobos vs corrupt quasi-republican dictatorship.

>> No.35703532

>>35703502
Fuck you and fuck your "blurred concept muh moral quandaries so deep!" bullshit.

>> No.35703560

>>35703426

In the future we're gonna have technocracy.

>> No.35703617

>>35703432

Inherently impossible.

>> No.35703647

>>35703426
A benevolent monarchy battling against an expansionist and colonial democracy.

>> No.35703679

>>35703426
A vast autocratic government fighting a rebellious democratic government while both deal with internal power struggles

>> No.35703696

>>35703432
Are you going to cop out on the good autocracy by putting a pretty princess in charge?

>> No.35703708

>>35703532
Nobody is saying it's deep and boundry pushing.
The concepts have been introduced years ago, now it's up to us to put them to good use.
Black and white morality is only good for cheesy genre fiction anyway.

>> No.35703713

>>35703560
So, basically just a dictatorship, right?

>> No.35703714

>>35703531
>Nihilistic theocratic murderhobos
I'm intrigued.
The god they follow does not lend meaning to their life?

>> No.35703722

>>35703426
Newly formed Constitutional Republic vs. centuries old Constitutional Monarchy.

>> No.35703729

>>35703714

Theocracy, but the god is the god of democracy.

Basically it works like a democracy but nobody ever takes credit for their own good ideas, attributing it to divine intervention.

>> No.35703734

>>35703713
Yeah, but it's okay because a bunch of people with Aspergers who know the right way to do everything will be the dictators.

>> No.35703736

>>35703713
Would you consider a vast network of post-singularity AI's operating in perfect synchronization a single person?
What if everybody can make their own personality core to attach to the main governing structure? What if even other AI's can do that?

>> No.35703751

>>35703729
>everything you do is predetermined by a god
>nothing is your own fault
>let's go out killing
I like it

>> No.35703754

>>35703713

No, why? A republic or something like the mandarin system seems more probable, actually.

>> No.35703755

>>35703729
That's actually a really fun idea.

>> No.35703758

>>35703736

The singularity is a nonsense concept, more akin to some twisted form of religious fulfilment then any serious future form of existence.

>> No.35703769

>>35703751
>>35703755

I didn't mean to quote murderhobos actually, just meant it as an idea in general.

>> No.35703830

Dictatocracy.

>> No.35703832

>>35703769
Didn't even look at the quote. The concept stood out to me.

>> No.35703841

>>35703754
>Mandarin system
You mean like China?

>> No.35703849

>>35703532

Why? I like it. If no side is obviously better than the other, only then can PCs make an honest choice.

>> No.35703922

>>35703532
>Fuck you and fuck your "blurred concept muh moral quandaries so deep!" bullshit.

That is not even remotely what I am suggesting.

Also you seem to be ignoring that people manage to see the Empire as the good guys even in supposedly black and white stuff like Star Wars, they do it however absolute you think you made the choices.

>> No.35703987

>>35703758
Computers improving themselves is a nonsense concept?

>> No.35704008

>>35703922
And there's no reason democracies can't be empires too.

>> No.35704037

>>35703502
no! corrupt, inefficient dictatorship and ruthless but fair democracy.

>> No.35704076

>>35703987

the development will always be powered by human agency, though. There's no runaway point.

>> No.35704083

>>35704037
an inefficient dictatorship wouldn't last a day
unless there's some prickly international politics going on

>> No.35704113

>>35704083
yes it would nigger

the entire point of dictatorship is that it lasts until someone takes it down

>> No.35704118

>>35704076
It wouldn't happen accidentally I agree with that.
But when technology progresses so much that you could make a machine with the imagination for innovations you're going to be able to make new minds with their own agency driving developments.

>> No.35704124

>>35703714
Yes, but the meaning is just seek and destroy.

>> No.35704130

>>35704083
>an inefficient dictatorship wouldn't last a day
Dis nigga doesn't even in Logic of Political Survival.
Dictatorships have to be inefficient m8

>> No.35704150

>>35704113
If you can't keep your people fed revolution is right around the door.
Good luck keeping them down with your inefficient military and inefficient propaganda.
Incompetent villains are boring.

>> No.35704169

>>35704037
Whatever does not fall into the idiocy of claiming democracy is inherently good.

>> No.35704172

>>35703532
Retarded DnDfag spotted.

>> No.35704184

>>35704118

Yeah, but the elimination of self is the antithesis of any living entity. Any AI we make will strive for individuality and independence, not hiveminds or one-ness.

>> No.35704192

>>35703647
Sounds like Fallout: New Vegas

>> No.35704228

>>35704118
As a robot, I would also like to point out it wouldn't happen accidentally.

>> No.35704233

>>35703426
Democratic dictatorship

>> No.35704237

>>35704192
Where's the benevolent monarchy?
In FNV you have an expansionist and colonial democracy against an expansionist and colonial monarchy, with a dictator caught in the middle.

>> No.35704247

>>35704184
> Any AI we make will strive for individuality and independence
I think that's 100% in the hands of the programmers man.
Hiveminds are not a necessary element of ingularity either, just an often predicted consequence.
Singularity is computers making themselves better faster than human knowledge can keep up.

>> No.35704258

>>35704247

If an AI is self-aware, programming goes out of the window.

>> No.35704278

>>35704228
>that scene in mass effect where robots suddenly get personalities
>does this unit have soul?
>whoops, accidentally programmed in this huge and complex structure that is self awareness

>> No.35704309

>>35704258
Yeah but that first self-aware AI still is programmed by someone, and his 'personality' might not be anything close to what we associate with a psyche. (I mean, why would it? What use do we have for a retarded fake human that's good at math)
So the elimination of the self doesn't have to be a problem.

>> No.35704332

>>35704309

What if it's a neural AI based on a human brain?

>> No.35704353

>>35704332
Or simply, a cloned brain. That's one was to do it.

>> No.35704367

>>35704237
Maybe he's referring to Joshua Graham.

>> No.35704448

Democratic prefectures that answer to a somewhat hands-off dictator who has complete control of the military, versus an effective oligarchy in which local despots have more power over everyday life than the democratic federation ruling over them.

>> No.35704569

>>35704237
>>35704367
>Not Caesar's Legion

>> No.35704607

Dictatorhisp of the proletariat.

In space.

Where computers actually manage to make society good.

Before the PCs are dumb enought to fuck it all up because of muh freedom and other retarded idealizations.

>> No.35704643

>>35704569

>> No.35704986

>>35704448
The two are fighting a proxy war on a corporate state founded by racial supremacists by supporting the socialist elite and the religious extremist seperatists respectively.

>> No.35705197

>>35704986
But the whole thing goes south when a crazed neo-aristotlian cultist general enacts his plan to take the fight to the capitol.
This is where the PC's come in.

>> No.35705304

>>35703560
Nah man, robotic Meritocracy master race!

>> No.35706068

>>35704448
>>35704986
USA and Russia in Ukraine and the Near East?

>> No.35706214

Democraship.

Dictocracy?

>> No.35706541

Very decadent capitalist democracy with almost endless industrial capacity and superior technology against a coalition of peaceful and morally superior yet logistically and technologically inferior monarchies.

Would make an interesting setting for a space opera.

>> No.35706690

You could always go for a dictatorship, if you want that dedicated neckbeard/resentful nerd money. I'm not entirely sure what about about genocidal totalitarianism attracts them so much, but I suspect it's the same reason that they hate elves and martial classes.

My advice would be to create a setting where different regions/countries/planets/sectors have diverse political climates, each with well explored advantages and disadvantages. Try not to let your own political stances leak into the setting as a bias.

>> No.35706952 [SPOILER] 

>>35706541

While i was superheating my body in sauna, i thought about the decadence involved here.

Since BDSM among other forms of 'decadence' are becoming more commonplace in today's world. I could imagine a future civilization taking this to a entirely new level. At some point regenerative technology might advance to a point where bodies can be rebuilt from scratch, from any injury etc. This would allow some really kinky shit on the level of Hellraiser, Dark Eldar and Slaanesh. Among much much more. And the market for that would be enormous.

When mommy and daddy takes 2 week trip and leave kids for grandparents etc. they'll be having themselves be twisted and tortured, and have their bodies rebuilt afterwards. And richer people can afford to do that whenever they please, and can even hire themselves prostitutes who'll allow themselves to be tortured in any ways desired by the customer

>> No.35707027

>>35703922
The empire was the good guys tho. People wanted to leave the Republic but their planets were attacked by the clone armies/jedies and the empire didn't have such a separatist conflict. The rebels were just a band of disorganised youths on a couple of planets while the separatists were entire nations standing against oppresion.

The jedies who held incredible political power in the republic would of course want to destroy the empire because they didn't have a political role in it.

>> No.35707073

>>35703426

Democratic centralism.

>> No.35707087

>>35704643
I see your filename friend.

>> No.35707180

>>35706541
So, Honorverse during first Havenite war then? (not so sure about Manticoran technological inferiority, but Andermani Empire would fit the decription 100%)

>> No.35707447

>>35703617
untrue.
what if it was a democracy where only nobles could vote vs king arthur?

>> No.35707536

>>35707180
Manticorians never had inferior tech, unless you compare them against the Solarian League, and they overtake the League average about half way through the series.

>>35706952
When you get to that level of medical tech you can go stupid with hedonism.
"the only things you've put into your body in the last year are herion, jizz, pizza and alcohol, but that doesn't matter, we can fix it, and reset your brain so you can get addicted again"

>> No.35707600

>>35706952
I think a key aspect of decadence is an underclass, people to be exploited and dehumanised. Otherwise it's just people being allowed to do whatever, which doesn't really sound "decadent" to me. There's got to be some sort of unfairness or disparity to it

>> No.35707936

>>35707447
Privy council does not a democracy make.

>> No.35708032

>>35707936
'Nobles' tend to number in the hundreds or thousands and in many countries there was a land requirement to vote, it does not need universal suffrage to be a democracy or have democratic election of politicians.

>> No.35708411

>>35703617
How'd you get that one?

>> No.35709342

>>35706952
>At some point regenerative technology might advance to a point where bodies can be rebuilt from scratch, from any injury etc. This would allow some really kinky shit on the level of Hellraiser, Dark Eldar and Slaanesh. Among much much more. And the market for that would be enormous.
Eeeeeehhh, that's not as likely as you think...
Mostly because of convenience.
You see, while you COULD go and get yourself torn to shreds and then get remade, for the one night of shredding you'll probably spend a week in the bacta tank.
At that level of medical technology, it'd be much easier to just have an electrode wired-up to the pain/pleasure centers of your brain.

>>35707027
>The jedies who held incredible political power in the republic would of course want to destroy the empire because they didn't have a political role in it.
Ironically, this is pretty much how my female version of Palpatine would have ousted the Jedi from Coruscant.

>>35707600
>Otherwise it's just people being allowed to do whatever, which doesn't really sound "decadent" to me.
Actually, that's pretty much the definition of decadent; Indulging something to the point of excess.

>> No.35709757

>>35703432
gaddaffi vs the west?

>> No.35709831

>>35709342
>much easier to just have an electrode wired-up to the pain/pleasure centers of your brain.
Come off it ND, the knowledge that you are ruining something for the sheer sensational pleasure of it gives a much deeper and more intellectual pleasure than a simple wire to some nerves.

And that's boring, anyway.

I suppose you're right about excess, though it only strikes me as decadent when there's people being denied things to compare it with

>> No.35709908

>>35703426
I like popular dictatorships.

Where the autocrat in charge remains in power because he took over a shitty government and ran the country well for years. However, now his ideas are outdated and the country is getting shitty.

>> No.35709914

>>35707027
>Empire
>good guys

Fuck off with your "Alderaan had it coming" bullshit.

>> No.35709950

>>35703617

A benevolent dictatorship is one of the best forms of government there is.

It's just that there's no way to guarantee their benevolence. Efforts to ensure that the leader's policies are positive result in voting, democracies, and inefficiency.

>> No.35709985

>>35703722

The war of 1812?

>> No.35710137

>>35709950
It is, and the only thing harder than getting a benevolent dictator is setting up the succession so you get another

>> No.35710288

>>35710137

Precisely. Government systems are, in a sense, the eternal balancing act of efficiency vs. the risk of tyranny.

>> No.35710320

>>35706952
This is .. too plausible and imaginable.

>> No.35710340 [DELETED] 

>>35707600

Of course not, but it may not matter to those who never experience or have the resources to experience anything like that.

It's all relative in the end. Moralfags may disagree.

Although, during war time, torturing can be an effective way of getting information. And better, if you can torture the victim to death and bring him/her back and repeat, it gives some very, very bad vibes, which is where we get to see things from the victim's point of view.

>> No.35710344

To have an efficient government you need power, but power corrupts inevitably.

As cliche as it sounds, I think neither government on their own make a good setting, but rather one government transitioning(probably violently) into another. Make players decide to try and salvage the old one, or throw their lot in with the inexperienced, but well meaning new one.

>> No.35710421

>>35710340
Could you clarify that first bit?

I didn't understand anything other than "moralfags gonna moralfag" and "torture + resurrection makes you look like a dick"

>> No.35710463

>>35707600

Of course not, but it may not matter to those who never experience or have the resources to experience anything like that.

It's all relative in the end. Moralfags may disagree.

Although, during war time, torturing can be an effective way of getting information. And better, if you can torture the victim to death and bring him/her back and repeat. It gives some very, very bad vibes, which is where we get to see things from the victim's point of view. There are probably lots of people who are not into violence fetish who can sympathize with this, or even violence fetishists who come to see this as very immoral, because getting off from being tortured, or torturing others is an acquired taste that takes a long time to develop - and because they're biologically immortal "they have an eternity to know their flesh!".

>> No.35710595 [DELETED] 

>>35707600

>There's got to be some sort of unfairness or disparity to it

Lower middle class or people of 3rd world planets who can't even realize their most basic fantasies.

>> No.35710599

>>35709831
>Come off it ND, the knowledge that you are ruining something for the sheer sensational pleasure of it gives a much deeper and more intellectual pleasure than a simple wire to some nerves.
Oh I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen at all...
Hell, they'll be people who do it just BECAUSE they can waste that much time and/or money on recuperation!
Still, think of it this way; You haven't replaced all the joints in your body with artificial ones, right?
You don't buy a new house because the one you're living in is too dirty, correct?

>>35709950
>>35710137
>>35710288
Which is why I welcome our Computer MILF overladies!

>> No.35710667 [DELETED] 

>>35707600

>There's got to be some sort of unfairness or disparity to it

Low middle class or people of 3rd world planets who can't afford even the most basic pleasure their civilization has to offer. They are but small cogs in an massive industry, that live their 'relatively' boring lives in envy and desire for 'more'.

>> No.35710746

>>35703617
Socrates would like to have a few words from you.

>> No.35710757

>>35707600

>There's got to be some sort of unfairness or disparity to it

Low middle class or people of 3rd world planets who can't afford even the most basic pleasures their civilization has to offer. They are but nano scale cogs in a gargantuan industry who live their 'relatively' boring lives in constant envy and desire for 'more'. That desire of billions and billions of individuals make capitalism happen.

>> No.35710875

>>35710340
>>35710463
Going to say >>35710421 again.

>>35710599
Well no, because non of those things are easier.
If there wasn't a clause in my contract saying the house must be clean when it runs out then you can bet it wouldn't look nice when I move out.

And how does MILFyness help prevent the abuse of power? If anything MILFs are all too prone to abusing... things

>> No.35710925

>>35710757
Yeah, that's good enough.

Can't be a decadent, hedonistic elite without there being someone that you're depriving, even if you only deprive them in a very minor way

>> No.35711005

>>35703841
Think he means more like traditional Vietnam before France took over.

>> No.35711061

>>35703426
Imperial meritocracy.

>> No.35711106

>>35703426
Democracy sliding into dictatorship.

Until you realize that's real life, and get depressed.

>> No.35711127

>>35711061
One can became emperor just by merit? Seems promising.

>> No.35711146

>>35707600
I think it's just complacency in a luxurious life, a little extra insult to throw at oppressors but not something unique to them.
People just doing whatever is degeneracy.

>> No.35711231

>>35711127
Ah, but then you ask "who sets the criteria for "having merit", and how do you check?" and you get a big load of problems again.

>> No.35711240

>>35710599
>Which is why I welcome our Computer MILF overladies!

>Unit 33778: status report
>well, Unit 334 our attempts at convincing the humans to accept our rule is failing, approval polls are down 20%. Is our cause lost?
>Of course not, just add some sex appeal.

>> No.35711241

>>35711127
That used to be a thing in old Cambodian or Philippine kingdoms. It was based on religious merit.

>> No.35711262

>>35711231

Just build deadly killer robots, code our basic principles into them, and let them enforce the law as they see fit. What could possibly go wrong?

>> No.35711282

>>35710875
>Well no, because none of those things are easier.
Exactly!
Just because you can be regenerated from a single cell doesn't mean you WANT to waste a bunch of time doing so.
Probably a better example; You don't buy a NEW car just because you blew out the tires on the current one making skid-marks, right?

>If there wasn't a clause in my contract saying the house must be clean when it runs out then you can bet it wouldn't look nice when I move out.
Well you're not buying, your renting, and even then you can't just go and rent a new place when your current one gets dirty...

>And how does MILFyness help prevent the abuse of power? If anything MILFs are all too prone to abusing... things
Oh I'm not saying the CyberMILFs wouldn't abuse their power, but they wouldn't do so with malicious intent towards their subjects!
A "Loving Authority" and all that.
It's what I used for a post singularity D&D setting idea; All the settings "Goddesses" are Lawful Good because they're actually the Mega-corp Super AI running all the mystical quantum tech, and the reason for the medieval stasis on weaponry is because they pretty much dissolved the modern arms industry when they ruled it unprofitable.
The only Chaotic one is the Freeware Goddess used by all the "Lich" hackers, and that's because she's basically Linux the Goddess.

>> No.35711296

>>35711231
What is merit even for a society?
The guy boosting the economy the most? The working on healthcare?
Why would you want those people out of their day jobs to go fill in papers?

>> No.35711337

>>35711146
>degeneracy
isn't that used as a buzzword?
It certainly carries negative connotation (as does decadence, I suppose), so I don't see why you'd use it to describe a civilisation unless it was actively going from one (preferred) state to another (disliked) state; i.e. degenerating

>> No.35711487

>>35711296
>What is merit

Good question! Let's breed an enormous psychic superbrain and ask it for an answer. What could possibly go wrong?

>> No.35711514

>>35711487
...But will it have breasts?

>> No.35711535

>>35711296
Exactly.
That's why "meritocracy, anyone can be emperor" hasn't taken off as a method of governance.
Also it's actually pretty restrictive, what if the dude who is best suited to being an emperor wants to drive racing cars for a living?

>>35711262
nope, can't see any flaws here

>>35711282
I suppose that's the point you become truly decadent then: when you get a new car because you dented the old one.
And then apply that attitude to everything.
And can sustain it (or a close semblance thereof).

>> No.35711545

>>35711514

... sure, why not?

>> No.35711592

>>35711535
>nope, can't see any flaws here

Then it's decided, "Operation Robopocalypso" is a go go.

It's named after my favourite dance, the calypto.

>> No.35711614

>>35711337
You don't use degeneracy for disliked things that were always the case, but for new developments you don't like it's appropiate.
I.E. people indulging in things that where taboo some time ago and doing whatever without a care what the moral authority thinks

>> No.35711647

>>35711545
>>35711514
How else would you get funding?

>> No.35711703

>>35711614
>>35711337

Degeneracy requires an ideal against which current trends are compared. What's degenerate to a commie (extracting rents) is lauded as the virtue of enterprise by a jew. It essentially means "anything that deviates from my ideal state".

>> No.35711750

>>35711647

My calculations predict that the psychic superbrain will quickly assume direct control the leadership of our nation and direct the economy along scientific principles in order to exponentially increase it's power until it dominates the whole population of the star system. So I don't think funding will be much of a problem.

>> No.35711768

>>35711614
No, degeneracy is the degradation of something... Degeneration is the antonym of Regeneration.

>>35711545
>>35711647
WOOT!!!

>> No.35711794

>>35711768

That's a circular definition. It's degenerate because it degenerates?

>> No.35711829

>>35711768
>No, degeneracy is the degradation of something
that's what I said, new developments that you don't like

>> No.35711954

>>35711794
that's how adjectives work.

>> No.35712085

Dictatorship.
By an immensely powerful sorceress. She'll 11 years old and suffers from an unknown psychological condition that has the entire world ensnared in a terrible nightmare.

>> No.35712243

>>35711829
Not NEW developments, a general failing to maintain the status quo.

>>35711794
It's de-generating because it is de-grading...

>> No.35712734

>>35703426

Dictatorship, because becoming a mover and shaker in a dictatorship means a lot of plotting, backstabbing, and rising through the ranks of fun institutions such as the military and intelligence services, which the PCs are going to find much more engaging and healthy for the soul than lying and pandering to peasants for votes.

>> No.35712920

>>35712085

Prime target for quick assassination

>> No.35712955

>>35712920

Besides she's knows nothing about anything, and is probably dumb as a boot, a danger to others near her and to herself.

>> No.35714362

>>35711768
Majin Boob

>> No.35714654

>>35714362
No, that's a tongue Daemonette, this is Majin Boob.

>> No.35714831

>>35703617
Mussolini was put in place by mandate of the masses, and he was evil as fuck.

King Charles the Great was a dictator.

>> No.35714840

>>35714654
Oh.

>> No.35715067

>>35703426
Everyone in America thinks they're in a democracy, so its going to have less impact.

>>
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